 Governor Dakbar Biyadung of Ogun state reportedly governing from London and Senate passes new anti-kidnapping bill for a second reading. This is plus politics and I am Mary-Anna Cole. According to news reports, Ogun state governor Dakbar Biyadung has been running the state of affairs from London. A move lawyers have described as unconstitutional because the governor did not transfer power before leaving the country. Governor Biyadung, his deputy, Nyomot Salako Uyedile, and the Speaker of the House of Assembly, Ola Kunle Uluwamo, have been reportedly out of the country for a week. Now joining us to discuss this is legal practitioner Jide Ologung and former vice president of the Nigeria Bar Association, Dr. Mandi Ubani. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. I'm going to start with you Dr. Ubani because you are one of the respondents to this story. I just want to start by saying that seven days ago, Governor Dakbar Biyadung was pictured with the leader of the APC and former governor of Lagos state in London. But when his aid was axed of his whereabouts because there had also been speculations that he probably was out of the country for health reasons. But his aid, which is the commissioner for information, had said that he was not there for health reasons, that he was there on an official assignment and he's been away for a week. Now people have questioned who's in charge right now because he's not in the country. His deputy is not in the country. Neither is the Speaker of the House of Assembly in the country. These are the three most important people in that state, away at the same time. And one would wonder, has there been a precedence before in any state in this country where all the three people that should either be holding onto government or standing in for the governor are out of the country and no questions act? Yeah, it is something that is clearly worrisome. But I think that they want to hide under the strict provisions of the law. The Constitution says that if the governor of the state is unable to perform his official function or is proceeding on vacation, whichever vacation it is, either medical or holiday, the Constitution says that he shall transmit a power to the state as of a simple speaker to ensure that the vice, I mean, the deputy governor will act in a state for these times that he is not able to perform his official function. And then subsection two of the Constitution that deals with this issue when the governor is not available to perform his official function also says that if he fails to do that, then after 21 days, the status of assembly shall now pass a resolution with a simple majority empowering the deputy to now act as the acting governor for the time being until he comes back. That is a provision of the law. So the governor cannot leave the state without any out of leadership. Anytime he is going on vacation or is unable, but understand that the commissioner was saying that he is still an official duty. Not all the issue of medical vacation was not mentioned. The issue of even being on holiday was not mentioned. So they are trying to avoid the situation where people can pin them down on the express provision of the Constitution. They are now saying that all is an official duty. And while an official duty, of course, he cannot pray from anywhere since he is not on vacation. That is actually what I understand from this report he just read tonight. They are trying now to say he is an official duty outside Nigeria. He is not on holiday and he is not unable to perform the duty that the Constitution of the country has assigned him to do. So that is what is actually playing out. They are being smart by half. That is what I think. These politicians are very, very smart and they know how to play the game. I understand that they put him not in Nigeria. I also understand that the speaker of the house is also not in Nigeria. So virtually everyone is on his own. They have gone on a walk. So to speak. So there is no place that is clearly now in charge of the governor who says he is operating from anywhere in the world. It makes me really wonder because like just as you said, the Constitution clearly states that, rather, let me put it to you as a question. Does the Constitution clearly spell out how to hand over, how the handover should go? Because I have worked in a government where the governor was away for a year and the deputy governor automatically became the governor of the state. But the modus operandi might not be clear. So for the common person who is watching, what is the procedure? And why wasn't that protocol followed in the first instance? Now that we have all three of them not around at the same time, should that authority not or that mantle not be thrown to the SSG? Or who should it be? Because I mean there has to be a process, right? Well, there has to be a process and I have spit out the provision of the Constitution. The Constitution says if the governor is unable to perform his official function, maybe medically is not feeling well. And he cannot perform his official function. The law says he should, he shall ensure that the deputy takes over the mantle of leadership. Now if he's proceeding on vacation, and that vacation includes medical vacation, the word shall also is used that he must transmit power to his deputy. But if he's unable to do all that, then that is where now the legislature comes in. After 21 days they will now pass a resolution mandating the deputy to take over. Now if there is no deputy, of course, the next person will be the maybe the deputy speaker that will take over. So that is that this thing that you know follows. But now the problem with this particular incident with that power is saying he is not unable to perform his duty. He's saying I am unofficial duty. And the Constitution did not say that if you're unofficial, then you must hand over to a deputy. So his engine is his own reason now that he's unofficial duty. And I said he's being smart. He's being smart. So they cannot in any way fought him constitutionally. Now he's saying I am unofficial duty. And I can, you know, still command, you know, reigns of governance, even from abroad, because I have not in any way I'm not on holiday. I'm not on medical holiday. I know that but there is a report that he has actually gone on medical holiday. I understand he just finished burying his father or he's still planning to bury his father, I'm sure from the stress of the entire thing, he may have taken off in order to go and take some rest and all that. But he's saying that he's not on any rest. He's not on vacation medically. He's not also, you know, going on holiday. But what he's doing in London is like he's unofficial duty and he has a right to continue to strip attend the affairs of the state even while in abroad because the conscience says it's only when you are going on vacation or you are unable to add that you cannot hand over. So I think they're being smart by half an order. And I want to see how my friend can respond to this conversation. But I think that that is what they're trying to do. They're being smart and they have made it possible that even the key person that you have handed over to are not even in Nigeria. So I learned. I want to push another question. But I want to find out if Mr. Loguay is joining us. Mr. Loguay, are you there? Can you hear me? Yes, I'm here. Perfect. The commissioner for information, Wahid Odushile, I had said that the governor traveled, just as Dr. Bani has said, that the governor traveled on official duties, but his deputy on the other hand cannot be accounted for. They're not even sure what he's gone for, where he is. So that's one on the one hand. Now, the speaker has been said to be part of the United Nations General Assembly and he was representing lawmakers or heads of assemblies in the southwest of the country. So that person's going away has been accounted for, but the deputy governor has not been accounted for. Now, I'm trying to understand why all these people would be out and then the governor would not at least give responsibility to one person, even though Odushile is saying that whoever the governor says do this or do that should do it because, I mean, the governor has a right to govern from wherever he is because hashtag, he's on official duties. What do you think the fear is here, if there be any? And why can't the governor just say, well, I'm going to be away for a few days or a few weeks, handle this? Is there no trust in the government of that state? Like Dr. Urbani, brilliant he mentioned, this is a unique situation for us now, because what the constitution says in section 190 is that issue right to the House of Assembly. Are you still there? I think we lost you. So Dr. Urbani, I'm coming back to you. Is it a thing of lack of trust or is it a problem of? Yes. It's not a matter of lack of trust now. Like I said, it's unique. He is so expected to have handed over to someone who is not available. So the three of them, the deputy governor and the speaker of the House of Assembly are all absent. I understand that in the case of the House of Assembly speaker, he was in the US for the United Nations General Assembly. All right, so who do you? Oh, I think that we're having connection issues with Dr. Barstow Logan. We're going to go back to Dr. Urbani. Unfortunately, we have to go back to Dr. Urbani. So I'm going to help you, let you continue where Dr. Urbani stops and then we'll move on to something else. I mean, I've had the explanation over and over again, but there is a deputy speaker and there are other people. So it shouldn't be something that we should be debating on this show if you ask me if common sense were to be at work, but it seems like common sense is not really common. Or maybe this is what the intention to have people talk about it. Maybe we'll have this conversation, you know, on another, you know, about the issue of governance generally. Our leaders are not transparent and they don't run transparent government and we find it very difficult to allow certain persons to come and begin to run the state of affairs because from the beginning there was no transparency. If there has been a proper transparency in governance where people have actually elected individuals to go and provide services, you know, take care of our welfare, provide security of lives and properties. There won't be any issue of any person trying to power, even when you're not around. You want some other person to, you know, take over power in order to ensure that there is no vacuum in governance so that you can go and do whatever you want to do and cut back. But because there is lack of transparency and there are issues of governance issues in Africa generally, they won't, they would not like to go, you know, let go of power, you know, when they're in charge. They want to still hold to it. And that's why you hear the argument that the governor can't can root from anywhere. And where has happened with even the presidency? President Buarria has several times traveled aside this country without handing over to the vice. He's been there wearing coats. I am on, you know, trying to defend the client now in court of appeal because we lost at the lower court. They still interpreted it as, oh, it must only be when the president is away for 21 days. And that is not the intention of the constitution. The constitution says the moment you are going on medical vacation, the moment you are going on holiday or you are unable to act as a president, you must share, use the word share. Use the word share. However, if you are not able to do that for 21 days, then mandatorily the House will come in, the legislative arm of our, you know, government will not come in to pass a resolution mandating your deputy to take over governance. That will be a resolution, whether you like it or not. So this is not the issue of staying 30 days or 90 days that we had when Yeradua was seek outside. No, the constitution has corrected that anomaly. Now says 21 days. But you know what did these guys do? They now, they now tell Nigeria that it's only when the president or when the governor will be outside the state or country for 21 days, that is only the time they will hand over power to their deputy. But that was not the intention of the crafters to the people who crafted the constitution. The intention is that the minute you are going on leave. But isn't the problem also the fact that most of these legislators or legislatures that we have across the country, I'm talking about the state and the federal, are some sort of a rubber stamp legislature. And that's why they wait for these days to elapse and sometimes maybe for one or two sets of people to raise the alarm before they feel the need to do the necessary. No, the point is that they house as of necessity after 21 days. But what these guys do and the president of the country has actually, you know, laid a very good precedent. He doesn't stay more than 21, more than 19 days or 18 days because he rushes back to the country. So most of the president of the country does not stay up to 21 days because he knows that would be an uproar. But that is not the intention of the constitution. The intention is only when you have breached the constitution by staying up 21 days than the house not comes in to do what the law says they should do by passing a resolution. But ordinarily, if you are going for one holiday, even for the one, from day one, you must hand over. If it is two days or three days holiday or medical vacation, even for one week, you must hand over to your deputy. It's only when you now stay up to 21 days without doing what is supposed to do, then the house comes in to now say, no, we must pass a resolution handing over to your deputy. So what they do now is they wait for maybe 18 days or 19 days, or at most 20, they rush back and tell you they have not breached the constitution. So these guys have been smart. But I know that people also we think out with the constitution in order to correct is an anomaly in the system. And it's something that has a set of other borders on government. These guys will not want some people to come to know what they have been doing even while they're so they are afraid of their back, they are afraid of their shadows. So they want to be in power, even when they are not even even around the country, they want to rule from all over, even from heaven when when when they go to heaven. And that is something that is actually going on. But I think that you're back. Where is the responsibility here from our leaders? Where is accountability? Because I mean, if for example, we do not have lawyers who have the guts to call call these governors out or these politicians out. And just like we're still bunny said, we have even seen our president do this and you know, nobody has bat an eye lead. So where is the place of accountability and leadership here to the people that are being led if anybody can go anywhere and act like it's I mean, I can do anything and call it, you know, official duties. Incidentally, the culprits here are the ones who are supposed to enhance the capabilities of the laws and give us accountability as a very strong expectation in good governance. But they are the ones now walking on the face of the rule of law. Because like we have, you know, expressed here, what is going on is just perhaps an intention to twist the lacuna in our laws. And I think the House of Assembly also should be thinking of how to enhance the capacity to accommodate situations like this. You recall when a candidate in Kogi State died in the course of election, the laws were amended to accommodate a unique situation. Now I think this is about the first time that you have a governor and the deputy governor and the speaker of the House of Assembly traveling at the same time. So the law is dynamic. How do we cover that? I'm talking about vacation or no vacation. I think I'm talking about defining where the governor cannot break from because it's a digital strength. So if President Boabildo decides to remain in the U.K. for one year and he claims that he's still on duty, how do you define the territorial aspect of being on duty now? It's long gone an extension of the state country. So that we don't run foul and continue with this situation. And again, what is so attractive about this United Kingdom that our leaders run out of this country from time to time, either to enjoy themselves, go for medical attention, even when they deny it. Why can't you develop this country and what you are? Because it's not cheap running to the U.K. to run the government from the U.K. I mean some would have traveled with them. At what cost when you consider taxpayers money? So we need to really work on the expectations of good governance in this country. And that is why the likes of force keep driving the advocacy that no, we need good governance in this country. And if we can drive safely through this advocacy and our leaders see the need for them to upscale their effectiveness in office, then we begin to move in the, you know, in the direction of prosperity. And if they don't see the need because you see sometimes when we say we're pushing this advocacy and hoping up on hope, it's like pouring water on the back of a chicken. And if they don't see the need to, you know, be responsible or put accountability as their number one watchword, what do we do? Whether we see the, whether they see the need or not, you see within ineffectiveness is the seed that we deal with ineffectiveness. And that is why we cannot stop the advocacy. Let me give you an example. The likes of Barry Saubani went to court to challenge the vocal salaries that the National Assembly members collect. That is a move in the right direction. Those who started the advocacy for the independence of Nigeria, that would be 61 years in a few days, did not do it in three days. You see, so we need to continue to engage and look, for example, also some of us have been talking about the unity of this country. Some of us have been talking about moving the country forward, but you can see the God knows rising up now, dropping the toga of South, South, East, South, West, Middle, Bell, to come together as God knows in the South, confronting the God knows from the North. And you don't think that there's a political undertone to any of that? And you don't think that they're trying to score cheap political points because you know that we're gradually getting to that season? You don't think there is any idea of some political undertone? The insecurity that we have groomed in this nation now is a threat to all, whether you are a God knows, or you are a minister, or you are a national assembly member. And look at what happened in Chad. And so who says it cannot happen in Nigeria? Look at what happened in Afghanistan. Who says it cannot happen in Nigeria? So there are expectations of good God knows. You talk about transparency, inclusiveness, efficiency, and effectiveness. You talk about accountability. You see, you talk about enhancing the fortunes of the people. And we are quick to take advantage and disadvantage of the Constitution. While some are arguing that the rotational presidency is not captured by the Constitution, is it not in section 14, subsection 12, Nigerian constitutional agenda and a amendment that the security and the welfare of the people should have been the primary purpose of government? Have you shut your eyes to the requirements of the Constitution? So you don't go ahead and be seeking to benefit from the Constitution when you ignore to carry out the mandate of good God knows. And it appears as if the potent weapon that the people of Nigeria have is to continue to advocate. You saw what happened during the answers. Reports are coming out now that some military-lethal weapons were engaged, even though they have denied several. So we cannot stop driving the advocacy that what we deserve in Nigeria is good God knows. Now the case of Prince Dapua Biodom is coming to the fore for discussion. And people will be enlightened on the issues and we have raised some here now. Is our Constitution, is it elaborate enough in capturing the scenarios that may emanate from the actions of our leaders? And that is the dynamic aspect of the law. The laws are made for the people. So as we progress, as we, you know, invent, we also carry the dynamic along in our law. So can we come up with laws now that spells out the jurisdiction within which God knows can be managing the state? Can you claim that you can go to Russia and be managing Nigeria from Russia? But like Boris Albany mentioned also, you recall that at a time the vice president of the country had to go and visit the president in the UK and return I think the same day to take instructions and some key officials from the Assovilla. So why don't you replicate those attractions in the UK in Nigeria? Why are you stressing the finances of the country when we are talking about low revenue, when we are talking about poverty? So this had a sense of some of us. But like you have observed also, who are the ones to help enhance the potency of our laws? The speaker of the House of Assembly is out of town. The deputy governor is out of town. The governor is out of town. So you can see the three key characters in the governor's architecture of open state, out of town. So are there the ones you now want to rely on to mobilize the forces within the governor's system to make our laws effective or respect for the rule of law? So this had a consensus we had. But then we keep looking forward to moments when transformational leadership will take over the mindset of governance in Nigeria and we cannot get into a well of hope when it comes to this. All right back to you Dr. Albany before we wrap this up. Does the law, the constitution, have to expressly spell out all the scenarios because it seems like every day our politicians find new ways to subvert the constitution. Of course let's not forget the issue of court orders that have been disobeyed over and over. In fact that's become the order of the day. But do we, most we have a constitution because you see I will never forget something that a presidential spokesperson for president, former president Goodlock Jonathan said at a time where we were fighting insecurity, Mr. Dono Kope, he did say that Nigeria has, we have a Nigerian way of doing things. So do we also Nigerianize this constitution in a way that it has to spell out expressly everything that has to be done and also think of future scenarios that politicians might also come up with to be able to hold these leaders to account? With any constitution in the world I will provide virtually for everything. What the constitution does is to lay a legal framework for where I'm doing things in the state. Are you feeling the gaps? You know with clear obedience to the provisions of the constitution. I've never seen anywhere in the world, including the American constitution. American constitution is smaller than that of Nigeria. You cannot write everything that should be done at any point in time by through the constitution. There are certain things you need to make basic provision for. And that's why I have said, you know, we look at a particular section that made provision for handing over, you know, for transmitting power. It was specific that when you are going on holiday day, use the word share. If it is medical, if it is ordinary holiday, or you are unable to perform a shoot from the world to go, the moment it is holiday, or you are unable, you must hand over. Even if it's one week, but if you are not able to do that, the constitution now says for 21 days, the national idea, another arm of government comes in now to now say they put you here automatically go and act. That is because you have bridged the constitution. From day one, if you fail to do it, you have offended the constitution. And now you are attracting the second arm of government now to come in to do what you are supposed to do. And that is when the House comes into pass a resolution. So there is nothing, there's no way the constitution could have been more explicit. We can't provide for everything. It's just for us to have a culture of obedience to our laws. We have so many laws in the law books, but obedience culture is what we are lacking. And we must begin to emphasize this political culture of obedience. That's only what we can make, you know, progress as a nation. 21, 61 years, very soon as a nation, where have we, where are we? Can we really say we are meeting up with best international practices in terms of good governance? Are we obeying our laws? Are we making good laws that the people are benefiting from and all that? So there are issues. And I think we must have time to talk about Nigeria generally. The issue of governance, the issue of obedience and all that to our laws and all that. It's a basic problem in this part of the world. A big conversation that we might have, maybe we have to throw a town hall of sorts and have that conversation. But I want to say thank you. Dr. Bani is a former vice president of the Nigeria Bar Association and of course vice, the GDO logo is also a legal practitioner. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being part of this conversation. I'm currently the chairman of public interest development law. Public interest and development law. That is my new position. I'm no longer former former former. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for being part of the conversation. And thank you all for staying with us. We will take a quick break when we return. The Senate has passed the anti-kidnapping bill for a second reading on the floor. Now, a lot of people are wondering what will this change if it becomes law to stay with us.