 INEC says electoral offenders and their sponsors must be prosecuted, even as INEC Chairman Makmugi Okubu raised his concerns over a possible cancellation of 2023 polls. And the NNPP unveils its campaign council and zonal rally to begin on January 12th. This is Plus Politics. I am Mary Anacol. The Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC, has stated its resolve to go after those who sponsor electoral offenders in the country. Yakubu said the step became necessary because of those who snatch ballot boxes or falsify election results that they are unlikely to be candidates in such elections. Meanwhile, the INEC Chairman, Professor Makmugi Okubu, has said that the growing wave of election related insecurity across the country, he has also expressed fears that the trend – if not checked – could lead to the cancellation or postponement of the forthcoming general polls. These claims have, however, been refuted by the Ministry of Information and Culture, Lai Mohamed. Joining us to discuss this tonight is Deji Awabiri, he is a legal practitioner and Biadu Shomi, a political analyst. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us on the show tonight. It is my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thank you very much. Great. I'll start with you, Mr Shomi. A lot of concerns have been raised almost before the close of 2022 about INEC's ability to conduct the election in February. In fact, at some point, INEC had to respond to some of those concerns. Now also, with the burning of INEC offices, with sudden materials, including PVCs, also being lost in the inferno. It's calling for a concern. Again, talking about what the INEC Chairman has said, Professor Mahmoudia Kubu, raising concerns about insecurity, do you think that this is enough grounds for INEC to say we want to host the elections if care is not taken? Yes. When you look at the situation we found ourselves in the country, INEC has long time to prepare for this very election. At least they have four years' notice to prepare for it in addition to the fact that INEC has a rich experience of conducting past elections in Nigeria, and therefore there should be no reason why INEC cannot get set for this very election. One of the major function or the primary function of INEC is to conduct elections. It is not to provide security. The functions of INEC has to go hand in hand in cooperation with the security agencies who have the constitutional mandate to provide security in the country. And this is basically the federal government and the state government's duty to provide security through their security apparatus. Now we have had several attacks against INEC facilities undermining INEC's preparation for this very election. For instance, the issue of PVCs on people's PVC got burnt and INEC had to again make provision for them to make sure that people can pick up PVCs and vote. Some electoral materials were destroyed, including ballot boxes, and INEC had to replace all these. I think if you read what the professor said clearly, you realize that he's making a conditional statement that is if the trend of attacks continues against INEC infrastructures and materials, it may eventually create a situation where elections cannot hold in some parts of the country. So this happen is actually calling attention to a provision in the electoral act, which is if the people or the outstanding voters, or people who have not voted, whose elections were cancelled or rescheduled, if the number is greater than the margin of victory of any candidate in that election, then INEC will not be able to declare a winner. That is basically what the professor said. They will not be in a position to declare a winner, and therefore there will be a constitutional problem in the country. You have had elections, and yet you cannot declare the winner simply because of the security situation that led to the cancellation. And what that basically means is that it means a few areas in the country can basically hold the whole country to ransom. If there is a trouble in an area, maybe with a population of 10, 12 million, and then you have the margin of victory of one candidate over the rest to be 3, 4 million, there is always a discount that they will have to take that into account. They are not going to look at how many people that eventually will vote. They will look at the number of voters that are supposed to vote, not even those who are accredited because accreditation may not have taken place. So this is the major problem that we may end up in a situation where INEC is not able to pronounce anyone as the winner of the election, even though elections are taking place in 80% parts of the country. So INEC is raising a very genuine concern, a very genuine fear, which the federal government needs to assure the whole country that they are on top of their game, they're going to have to stem the wave of insecurity and attack against INEC facilities so that we can have elections, peaceful elections conducted in all parts of the country. This is the minimum which INEC is asking for. They are not responsible for security, it's none of their business to provide security, but theirs is to organize a peaceful, credible, free and fair elections. And that is what INEC seeks to do, but they cannot do that without a conducive environment. Which other security services would have to provide? Deji, just off the back of what Mr. Shoumi has said, if everything he said is anything to go by and with what the professor has said, also knowing that there are sponsors, from what the professor has said, there are sponsors of these perpetrators of violence or arson in whatever form that they come in, could this also be the plan of whoever these sponsors are to make sure that these elections don't hold or become so inconclusive that we begin to have a constitutional problem? Could this also be what they're looking for and how do we evade that? Well, you can understand exactly that this could also be a plan by these sponsors of violence. However, what needs to be done is for the security of the country to be deployed to ensure that we prevent such an occurrence. We've always had this issue of unrest. We had the 2011 elections, we had the 2015, and now we had the 2019. So it's not new any longer that we have this constant issue of likely insecurity breaches here and there that may prevent the elections being conducted by INEF. However, I feel that the alarm that was sounded by the professor is just to keep the government on its toes and to basically draw the attention to the dangers that INEF would face should this security not be not recorded. What's important also is that INEF, what they need is the atmosphere, the peaceful environment for their personnel to carry out their task and for the votes to come out and please fully cast their votes. And all of that, like Lashonumi said, rest squarely on the palms of the shoulders of the police and every available security agency. So it's not in the... Ask me, this is that this will go ahead, elections will go ahead. Even on the INEF website, they have a running clock counting down to the elections. I believe that today, I put five days to the election, it's on the website. So INEF, I believe, is also ready for the elections. Deji, I'm so sorry, I think we're having connection issues with you. So I'm just going to go back to Mr. Shomi. Now, the federal government has chimed into this particular matter. They're saying that there is no such thing as a cancellation. But then everybody's looking at the federal government because that's their job to make sure that the country is safe enough to have the selections. Now let's not forget, this is not the first time that we're having issues such as this may not be this magnitude, but then we've seen arsons on government offices or rather INEF offices before elections, but it did not necessarily stop elections. Now let's also consider the fact that many people have been displaced and re-displaced as we can tell recently, plus the fact that we had a natural disaster and the flooding that also displaced a lot of people. This gives INEF a huge responsibility as we get ready for the election. But if an additional problem of lost PVCs, election and electoral materials that need to be reprinted all over again is added to the plate of INEF, who's to say that the federal government would not be the one to be blamed right now for all the things that are happening across the country? Yes, if you look at its query, whatever happens, the box stops with the president. The federal government will be blamed even if INEF is not properly resolved to carry out their functions. That is not the case currently. What we have is the federal government, the insecurity situation in the country and the challenges it's posing to INEF. On one part, the federal government has restated its commitments, just like as expressed by the minister for information, that they are determined that the election will go ahead. They will not allow the election to be derailed or to be cancelled in any form. That is beautiful. That's fine. But there are also constitutional provisions, there are also electoral acts provision that may inhibit INEF's ability to conduct elections. For instance, if there is violence in any area that affected voting, INEF would have to cancel the results of the election, whether it's violence. So if that happened, that didn't mean that the election didn't take place. Some people voted, but INEF would have to comply with the law and cancel it. And that is the problem. The other side of it also is that which the federal government needs to take account of is that even though we have voted in the past in the Northeast, when Boko Haram was racing flags, left, right and center and everywhere, this time around, the laws have changed. There are some differences from the previous situation to what we have now. It is not just about having a simple majority. There are now proviso that the margin of that simple majority, with a spread of 25% in 24 states of the federation, in addition to one thing, which is that the margin of victory should not be less than the total number of canceled or re-cheduled elections. Otherwise there will be a hung elections, and that's basically what I mean. So since when we have that provision, that has changed again. It is not just enough for the federal government to say yes, we will make sure elections hold. Election must help in a peaceful atmosphere. The atmosphere is not peaceful. If it's violent, INEC may be compelled to cancel the results of such voting that happen in those areas, you know, violent areas where the total disorderliness. So these are the different states. It's good if the government is assuring your country, but we need to help again. We need to do a little bit more. We need more security for INEC personnel, equipment and offices, while at the same time we need to pacify those who are helping on creating problems on the really not democracy. And by this I am not saying that the federal government should arrest or should repress self-determination agitators. No, that is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we should go into negotiations, go into openly genuine dialogue with disaffected people in the country, with the view to ensure that our democratic train is not derailed by violence or by those who are helpers on creating problems in the country. Addressing or bringing these agitators to the table to have some... Why did we have to wait till this last minute? There had been several opportunities for this government to have these so-called dialogue or negotiations and that wasn't done. So who's to say that towing that line now will work at the dying minutes? I'm just curious because when the way you sound, it's like, oh, maybe there's a magic wand that can be just swung around and then all things will be good and dandy. Yes, it is true the federal government has had ample opportunity over the years to address some of the issues which people are agitating over. We should also understand the concerns of key government operatives like Mr. President, who just simply said, I think I read it today or said it yesterday, that he fought in the civil war and therefore he does not want anything that will threaten the country. So yeah, that's the mindset of Mr. President and he's not the only one. Most of those who fought in the war, General Loba, so you're there of that mindset. But the reality today is that we have a resting youth who are very, very unhappy with the situation in the country. Now, the only way out is to engage them in discussions. We have had so many conferences and national conferences and whatnot. We have never voted to implement any of those reports. We are faced with a new situation where the youth are not even calling for the implementation of those reports. We now have a significant section of our youth actually calling for separate countries, within separate nations to be created out of our country. So if that is the case, I don't think it is too late at any point in time rather than we talking down and giving others to genuine people fighting to exercise their right to serve the termination. I'm not talking about terrorists or bandits, but those who are genuine, peaceful, non-violent agitators to exercise their right to serve the termination, I think governments should begin to talk to them so that we can alienate. And this is the standard practice in all modern climes. You alienate the peaceful agitators from those who are violent agitators, and then the state can take on the violent agitators. But as far as it is currently, the government is not talking to anybody, whether peaceful or violent agitators. So if we are able to engage our own, they have to run their own citizens. If we are able to engage them, at least common sense will prevail. We need time to sort things out. The Buwari regime cannot do anything any longer now. It's now up to the new incoming administration. And we need to address the concerns of our own people, whether we like it or not. What people are asking for is destructing the country in a way that everybody can be stakeholder within their own country. And that's not too much to ask for, decentralized. So I'm sure eventually we'll get to that point. But we need to escalate the security situation currently. It is so insecure that it may affect voting in some parts of the country. Let me toss this to you now, because we're not just talking about insecurity now. There are the things that are, one way or the other, bedeviling the electoral system in the country. And that's also INEC's duty in making sure that we can prosecute electoral offenders. INEC would always tell you that they're not law enforcement. But then there can be some level of advocacy or push, knowing that there's an electoral act that we're all operating on. And that's what Mr. Shoomi was talking about. And that the rules have changed. It might not be drastically, but then there are some rules that have changed. Again, talking about concerns, a lot of people are wondering if INEC will be as apolitical, as independent, as we hope for them to be, plus the fact that we have new technology that will help us to see some deceiving of the process to be a bit more freer and fairer. Since you're a lawyer, let's talk about this prosecution part of it. INEC always is getting darts from stakeholders as to prosecuting these electoral offenders, so that it doesn't repeat itself. But then we see this continuous cycle over and over again. Who's to say that things will change now? Is that for me or for my colleague? For you, Deji. All right. Well, as it relates to prosecuting electoral offenders, I pulled out the statistics from INEC's websites this evening. INEC has a list of the cases that have been prosecuted. And I can inform you that since INEC basically started all of this campaign, they have prosecuted four into two cases. Four into two cases that have been prosecuted by INEC. Of that number, one in six, seven of those cases have been struck out or have been determined by locals. Only 24 from pictures have been secured for electoral offenses. 24. Of the 24, we have four from Madama Wastis, four from Kalu, five from Kebi, one from Undu, and three from Zafara. And INEC still has three out of the three cases that are still pending that I get on this as it relates to electoral offenses. Now, you would call that when the electoral act was passed. New offenses were created to try and block the loopholes that existed under our laws. For instance, part seven of the electoral act of 2022 deals with electoral offenses in general. You have crimes that have increased from 100,000 Naira to one million. For instance, if you use your butaskarding properly, if the person gives his butaskard or sells it or receives somebody's butaskard, that's an offense under the law. And you could go to prison for 12 months or pay a fine of one million or both. You have also other offenses that are provided for under the electoral act, which include improper use of vehicles. You will recall that during elections, people use government vehicles to move around. So you pay security checkpoints and to just move around and also engage in other electoral practices. So right now, the electoral act has already imposed a fine of 500,000 Naira on anybody who's found moving around with government vehicles or public operations vehicles for purposes of elections. And also go to prison for six months. You also have several offenses, bribery and corruption, conspiracy. So if you look at that particular part of the electoral act, you'll find that, I mean, you have detailed offenses that also affect political agents, INC officers, party agents, political parties. Recall that during elections, even party agents of the opposing parties usually engage in conspiracy on the collective brides and all of those things. Also, you will find out that under the electoral act now, if you engage in any violence on the election day, you go to a polling center and you start causing chaos or causing unrest. You could be arrested and prosecuted as well. But INC's biggest challenge has always been that they don't investigate these offenses. It's only their power to investigate or to prosecute. And that's where the security just needs to step up their game. Because you will recall that on every election day, you would find a civil defense, the police, even sometimes the army present on election day to keep the peace. So what I like to say is, maybe it's high time you give us our own commission, our own electoral offenses commission, whereby we can be involved directly in the investigation and prosecution of offenders. You know that if the police investigates and the police does not do it by investigation, then it will be difficult for INC to go ahead and prosecute the offenses. If, for instance, I think it was the last election in Haiti, where you had videos circulating on social media or people sharing money, one thousand, one three thousand, and there were videos going all around. And there were calling INC attention to ways of tagging INC on the timeline to look at what was going on. But I like it. Deji, I'm so sorry. Once again, we have had a problem with your connection. Back to you, Mr. Chomi, quickly. When Deji was talking about, you know, electoral violence, you know, half the time we're only looking at the violence that happens during elections, but then there are violence that happens before, during, and after. For example, let's go to Oshun State. Yesterday I had a conversation with a PDP member from Oshun State and, of course, a member of the APC. And it seemed to be more of a blame game as to, oh, it's you, it's your people. And the other person is saying it's your people. In cases like that, shouldn't INC jump on it in tandem with security agencies to investigate? Because it's a finger-pointing situation, and we can't just say, I mean, Oshun State has finished its election. But then there are election violence happening. There's election violence happening in different parts of Oshun State. Getting most of these politicians to be pointing fingers at each other. As that is happening, what should be INC's duty? Because, again, it shouldn't stop on election day, right? Mr. Chomi, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me? Yes, go ahead. Okay. Now, what we've all been talking about is about INC's duty to ensure that offenses are prosecuted, one. And we've also been talking about INC's failure to prosecute people. In the first instance, we... Mr. Chomi, are you there? We do not ignore that on election. Almost police officers are busy keeping watch at polling booths. In some cases, you have two police officers to a polling booth. Oh dear, I think that we are having a connection issue. We'll take a quick break. When we come back... Not when times are big, but... Mr. Chomi, just hold on. We're going to take a quick break, try to fix your connection, and then we'll be back. Stay with us. It's still plus policies, and we still have with us Deja. I will be Yide, and of course, Biordon, show me. Mr. Chomi, before we went on that break, you were trying to conclude on something. Yes, what I'm saying is that when you have a situation where you do not have enough police officers to police the country, and on polling booths, they are only there to keep watch at polling booths. They are not in a position to arrest, effect arrest. If they do, they will have to leave the polling booths to go and get a person locked up. And what then happens? So we have a big problem with security agencies. We do not have enough of them to police election or to police the country. And that is a major hindrance. And when it comes to investigating cases, when police officers posted to different places from different parts of the country, have to arrest people when in reality they will not be in charge of investigation. They will be transferred back wherever they came from after the election. So what then happens is that you end up with a short investigation carried out by an officer who did not actually effect arrest. In that case, we've had a good record, a many, many record of cases failing due to lack of diligent prosecutions as a result of poor investigation. Really, Deji, as stakeholders in the electoral process, what do we need to do in support of INEC to have free for equitable elections? The APC candidate at some point expressed concern about the viability of the beavers. And of course, INEC did hit back. But then these are genuine concerns. But what do we do? Where do we come in in making sure that this process is seamless? Finally. Well, I'm not sure that anywhere in the world you have an electoral process that is under percent in terms of its execution. But what we try to do is to build on the progress we've made over the years and try to ensure that now that we're raising the alarm concerning security, concerning the beavers, that all of these concerns are immediately addressed. And what we can do is number one, we know the number of police units that are available on election day. How many policemen do we need? What do we need to do? How do we deploy them there? We know the gaps in electoral offenses and how they are politically investigated and prosecuted. How do we start plugging those loopholes now? So that anybody who catches an offender on that day quickly gives a statement either by video evidence or in writing and documents it. So that even if you're not around, you can turn those documents in evidence or even use the video in evidence. So we need to find ways around by thinking outside of the box and ensuring that we're going to make progress as a people, as a release to our electoral process. Unfortunately, our time is fast-paced. Deja will be here today. He is a legal practitioner. Be able to show me as a political analyst. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us. All right. Well, thank you all for watching. We'll take a quick break when we return. We'll be talking about the NMPP and the inauguration of their campaign council. And watch next as they gear up for the election. Stay with us.