 And the little picture of the bears, the picture is that on the bottom of the gravestone, so that's where the picture of that comes. It's been a long battle to try and find out who I really am. I was interested to see psychologically how it would affect me. They're meant to be put in the soil, not the other way around. Gary, how are you mate? I'm fine, thanks, how are you mate? Yes, it's good to finally meet you. We chatted, God, it must have been over a year ago. Yeah, I think it was just before, when I was doing the book actually, just before it came published. I got in touch with it actually. I thought it must have been over a year ago, definitely, because the book came out last March. Yeah, how's it been doing? It's been, on Amazon, I mean, there's over 100 positive reviews on it, which is brilliant, to be honest. I couldn't expect anything more. I'd been pleased if I got 10 when I first wrote it, so it just seems to have got more and more and more, and it's just getting all that, they're trying to promote it and things really. Have you found that it takes, it's two different kind of arenas. There's one arena being an author, and there's the other arena of your story. Yeah, it's kind of strange. Yours is, your book's different from mine in as far as, I can sort of laugh off all my history and put it down to experience, and it really doesn't sort of, I wouldn't sort of change it for the world, but when you lose two daughters, I mean, I'm not even going to try to pretend I could get my head around that. God, I'm feeling emotional just talking about it because I remember when Jenny was pregnant, the only thing on my mind was just like, please, please don't let there be anything. Yeah. And it wasn't until we went through that nine months that I'd ever been put in a position, Gary, where I had to think, how must it be for parents who lose a child? Yeah. And to lose a child in pregnancy is not equal, we can't put a judgment on it, but you get what I'm trying to say. It's just a massively overlooked area in society. I mean, my aunt had three miscarriages, right? Yeah. And when you're a kid and you hear about this, you don't realise that, no, you make a bond with each one of those lives and it's so special to you and there's just so much, so much more to it. Yeah. And your daughter, am I saying this correctly? It was Alana and Dana. Yeah, Alana and Dana. Yeah. And they lived for how long, Gary? It was less than Alana. Alana lived for three days and Dana lived for 26 days. I think just saying that, we've got two audiences out there now. We've got parents and non-parents. Yeah. Not saying that non-parents can't have empathy or not extremely kind people, but I just think every parent thinks my God there by the grace of God go us. No, I think for me, Chris, and I know we're chatting way, way back, but I think because of my life and how I led my life and obviously I'd written my life story, that was the book that was going to come out. And I think it was until 2014 when my wife was diagnosed with cancer and what she did every year was go around all her family on their birthday and deliver birthday cakes. You go early in the morning and put birthday cakes on all the doorsteps. Selfishly, Chris, and you know, there's a bit shameful. I wouldn't have anything to do with it. I didn't want to talk about my daughters on their birthday or anything like that. I just wished I could go to bed the day before and wake up the day after. That's how my head was, really. And I was struggling with my own mental health battles way back. But this year, because she had the cancer, she couldn't do it, which was in 2014, so I had to do it. So I remember getting the cakes and things and I went round to the Michelle's family's doorsteps and put it down. But it kind of broke me in the way. I came home and Michelle's got memory boxes for Lana and Dana. So I took them, where I'm sitting now is my council room, but I've got like a self-defense studio behind here. So I took them all in to bed and started reading them. And I just cried and cried and cried, read all the cards, the county people who actually wrote and even just to see their baby grows. So they're just, they wouldn't fit in the hand. Chris, that's how small they were. And the motion just poured out, to be honest, which it needed to get suppressed for nearly 14 years, really. And that's how I thought, I'm going to have to write to Michelle and try and, I hadn't had the words to communicate it, to write what I've been going through myself all these years. So I started writing and then I went to see Michelle and says, this is what I'm wanting to do. And we're kind of like, why don't you write a book? Because there's obviously lots of dads out there. And it wasn't just the dads, to be honest, Chris. That was in my head, but I kind of rethought about it more. It was for partners as well. It was for medical teams and things to try and understand what dads going through. You know, I'm a stereotypical Nord now. You know, you keep your emotions built in and you just crack on and you crack on and you crack on. But to what effect, to my wife, what effect to myself and different people like that, really. So I came up with the title, Daddy and the Two Bears, because we always called them our little bears. And kind of from the Goldilocks and the Three Bears was a little ring from that, really. So then obviously we put the book together, got it edited and it came out in March last year. So it's, for me, the big thing, Chris, was always about it. It gives you hope. Doesn't matter what, you know, you'll have had your own dark times and different things like everybody has. It just gives you hope. And that's what I like to think people get from it. No matter what life throws it, you can get through it. Yes. They say time is a great healer. I guess it has to be. Otherwise, how could we go on? I don't know if it heals you. I can only speak for you on. I know it's a little louder out. And when you look at the front page of the book, I mean, that might represent different things, the different people. The hands represent me. Actually, that's me letting go now. I think I kept the hurt inside for so long because I want to keep my daughters inside, as well, if that makes sense. So that feeling that they were still with me, even though it was hurt, they were still with me. And that's me finally letting go. That's what the hands represent. And that was the staircase to heaven, if you believe in that. And the little picture of the bears, that picture is that on the bottom of that gravestone. So that's where the picture of that comes. Yes. And how have you been able to let go, Gary? Was there any single factor or has it been a process? I think it's been a process. I'm quite a physical person. So every year since I died, I always raised money for charity, either for baby lost charities and things. You know, I do the coast to coast, I've done and I'm doing the Cleveland Way this year. So I'm going to try and do that in three days. I try and put myself under lots of pressure to do things, but that helps me as well. It's that mindset. And I'm actually doing it for my daughters as well. So every time I'm doing something, it's for Lana and Donna, you know? Yeah. Yeah, my most recent challenge, I ran 100 miles along the coastal path. And it's the first charity challenge I've done that's not been for veterans or not been for veterans mental health. And I did it for a little girl that's recovering from a brain tumour. Oh, bless. And I was interested to see psychologically how it would affect me doing such an extreme challenge, but for a different, you know... Yeah, different charity. Yeah, I do a lot for veterans and obviously being a veteran, there's a strong connection there. But the truth is that, like I say, when Jenny was pregnant, that had such an effect on me. Yeah. You know, and I just, Jesus, I feel so fortunate that we've got to where we're at with, you know, there's always a few complications along the way. I think it's the nature of life, but compared to what you guys went through, Jesus. And I just wanted to acknowledge, you know, I wanted to acknowledge that. And I mean, I'd like to do something. I'm sure you can help me out here, but there must be... I know that your daughters live for a few days, but there must be charities that support parents that either lose a child during pregnancy or shortly after. No, there's quite a few. You know, I've done one last year. You know, I do, like I say, I do lots of walking to raise and tough guy events and different things like that. And I think over the years, I think Michelle said it was over 35 grand I've made for certain charities and things like that. And I'll keep doing that a little. As long as I can walk and things, if I can't walk, I'll push. I'll do something every year because it's my thing as a dad. You know, that's what I feel I need to be doing. And, you know, I'm 56 now. But it still doesn't... I still push myself hard to achieve things. And I think if you look at as much as... If you can take anything positive out of this, Chris, which is really hard to say that, I've turned my life around massively since my daughter's died, from the character I was to who I am now and what I do. It just drives me to do good. And that's not a being wishy-washy sort of thing. It's just... That's who I am. And I just want to do good for people, whether that's mental health, bereavement and that sort of stuff. Because it's my life. I've lived and breathed it. So I just want to put something back. Yes, because when you come to this table, we bring all our own... You know, we've got our own histories, haven't we? Did I gather from the book? I had to read it really, really quickly. Yeah. Some would say a skim read. Apologies for that, Gary. But no, that's okay, man. Just like I say, there's probably more than 50 books on my shelf. And when I started my podcast, I had this kind of deluded idea that every guest that was an author, I'd read and research their book. And the notion... I mean, I've done three podcasts in one day before. The notion that I could read three books in a day was a bit ambitious, let's say. But I did make time because I... You know, this is an area that's special to me, obviously. It's a book. It's like a book. It's nine months, Chris, if you look at it that way. When you do get a chance to read it fully, you'll see the battle has happened with mental health, with alcohol, and all that. It comes into that book. Although you'll learn more about that in my life. You'll learn more about that in my life story, and my background in security, and things, and all that stuff. And sadly, I've not been the nicest person in the world. Hence, you'll read the book as well, let's say. I believe what happened was because of my past. So I had to go through that as well, because I was taught as a young boy, my granddad was a very religious man, and he'd say, it's whatever you do, bad. Something bad will happen to you. He always believed that. So I was dealing with that part as well, thinking this is all my fault. Michelle's such a lovely woman. She wouldn't park and double your lines, Michelle. She's such a, you know, she's just a proper lady. And she's ended up with me, all my mental health problems, being under the psychologist, then obviously getting pregnant, but she was just over the moon and sadly losing them. Then she's getting cancer. It's just been one, almost one thing after another. But the thing that we've been able to do, which I can imagine some parents will find it hard, we've stuck together, you know. And it is difficult at times, especially when I'm as a man and who I was, I didn't want to chat about all these things. Whereas I do sit with them now. I've still found it hard, Chris, but I can talk about it more. And that's because of the book, to be honest. Doing talks like this, it just helps. It's helping me and I'm hoping that helps somebody who wants to listen to it, you know. And that's for me to put myself out there, whereas I've always kind of been below the trenches. I'm kind of, I'm putting myself out there. I'm very uncomfortable doing it, but I want to do it as well at the same point, Chris. And that's my goal in life. I'm just going to put my story out there and hope that helps somebody. I'm sure it will. Well, I know it will, Gary. And now we've all got histories, haven't we? We're all on this journey. But we have that awakening, don't we? We don't realise what we're like. We just think that's us. That's, this is our, you know, our dirty... We are, isn't it? Yeah. And then something happens that makes you look back and reflect and think, oh, well, perhaps this isn't the most helpful behaviour. Yeah. And we start to try and get on an even keel then. Yeah. No, I mean, I mean, if I'm going off the tangent, just tell me, but I know when I met Michelle, it was on my birthday in 1999, and I was going overseas. My friend, it was a friend of a friend, was a mercenary overseas. And where my head was then, I was just going over there and just wanting somebody to put a bullet into my head. That's all I was. And I went down to Cleetop, so I didn't know Michelle at the time, but my old boss was down there and he was having trouble with drug dealers. So we went down to the pub to sort these drug dealers out, and Michelle and her friend was in the pub. And basically, that day, then drug dealers ran off. But I sat, stood there with Michelle, and a year later, I was married to Michelle. And for which, I went into a psycho counseling. It didn't work for me. I was under the psychologist for eight years, battling with that. I went dumping down stone and waiting. I'm a falling stone plus bloke. Couldn't leave the house of anxieties and things. And it was so shameful. You know, really shameful for myself. I know it's not, but that's how I felt. You know, the embarrassment is supposed to be tough guy was actually really struggling with these demons and things from his past and that. So, you know, for as much as the book is about me and my little girls, it's about Michelle, because she, to me, is just an, she's an angel, to be honest, in my eyes. You know, I don't believe in coincidences. I believe in fate. And I think that was, you know, and I do really believe in that. I know some people might think it's a lot of crap, but I do really believe in that, you know. Yeah. Well, everything happens for a reason, you can say. Definitely in my eyes anyway, Chris, 100%. I can kind of see the path that that may, when I look back on it. You know, this is why this happened. This is why this happened. This is why this has happened. And let's not forget, mate, she obviously sees a lot in you. She's fallen in love with you and that's all credit to you. She probably said a few times, I don't know how late, but she's golden, like, and, you know, absolutely darling. Yes. Hence the expression, my better half, isn't it? I think we all feel like that. No, I think, you know, the background, you've got in the background, I've got you doing me a lot of men's men and things. And actually when you get, and I'm, you know, I'm a counselor now, but, you know, when you're sitting with people and you peel it all apart and you get really to the nitty-gritty, the things where people have come from. And it usually is from childhood environment around and things like that, isn't it? It's not hard to understand why somebody's doing what they're doing. Yes. And I think that the thing that this awful wave of veteran suicides has highlighted is some of these guys in battle were the most ferocious, toughest men you ever could come across. I mean, they've all passed the Commando course for a start. But if you haven't got it right up here, you know, and you've got to have your house in order then you've got to be able to deal with the challenges that life throws at you, especially if you've been on the front line and you've seen, you know, you've seen some extremes. Doesn't matter what the outward appearance is, does it? If it's just one switch up here could mean that you're a broken... No, well, you know, I've been there and, you know, I remember my mother was living with this fella and he bought me a motorbike for my birthday, 16 or 16-year-old and I had enough of life then. I didn't really know about mental health and things like that. I just know I'd had enough of life then. And I remember I decided, and my head was, I want to see who turns up to my funeral to see if anybody actually likes me. That's how my head was. And it was, in some ways, it's a bit of a funny story. I was, I lived right under A1 and I thought, I came to the junction. It was a crossroads and I seen the wagon coming down. So I went back and the 50cc trying to get as fast as I could, which was probably 30 mile an hour, I missed the wagon. And I remember the car, I had the Mark II escort. And I remember waking up, I knocked myself out and my first thought, I can't even do this, right? You know, and that's how my head was. But I didn't know that people just call you crazy and, you know, I don't really like that word. But for me, that was mental health then. And further back, I can see where it all comes from now, just from my own therapy, really, you know. I'm guessing you had a bit of a challenging childhood, Gary. No, I did, I was, you know, I was born into a family that didn't love each other, you know, in the 60s. If you got pregnant, people got married, didn't they? Where it's nowadays, and, you know, and rightly so, you don't need to do that. The stigma comes with it, isn't it? You know, I was abused. I was not of, I mean, my mum and dad, but I was abused of Sunday. And even that, the fact that I had the rest of my life, it's just incredible. I was self-destructive. I had to have alcohol to cope with my demons. And actually, when I had too much alcohol, the demons came out. So it was all that constant battles to be honest with Chris. It's just, and I've done a lot of harm to people, you can't change Chris and I've got to take that to my grave, that one, like, you know. Yeah, I'm a great believer in, I put a line there and the past is the past, that's it. Yeah. I'm very clinical about, I've done that in situations where people have died in front of me and I'm just like, that's the past. I don't care if it's just happened a second ago, it's irrelevant to me. It's, I think, when you've experienced depression, you can't afford to go there again. No, it's, there's nothing to be gained from it. There's nothing to be gained from living on a bloody sofa bed in front of the tally for 18 months. There's nothing. And my way to deal with it is I just, I literally draw a line. There's, yeah, take the lessons from it. And that's it. Yeah, and it's good you can do that Chris. That's, I guess, what people can't, you know, and that's the thing that strengthens your character, but that doesn't mean to say that other people aren't strong. For me, I honestly, this is the truth. I never wanted to end my life. I just couldn't live with my life. I just struggled. I couldn't sleep at night for nightmares. I've had alcohol to help me sleep. So, there was just that, you know. Every relationship I had had failed because I'm self-destructive in it. And it's just, and because deep down I know I'm a nice, when I know I'm a nice person, but then I know deep down I hated what I was. So, I'm always people, I must be a nice person, unless I wouldn't be ashamed, you know. But again, it didn't stop me getting in the trouble of the place, ended up in jail and things, you know. So, it's, I learned later on in life. I was diagnosed with ADHD and when you look at that and you look at my patterns, part from the complex trauma part of it, I can see why I did things as well, you know. So, it's, it's all started to make sense to me really. But it's been a long battle to try and find out who I really am. I should point out Gary, for me, if people are out there thinking I'm some sort of psycho, it's no, it's absolutely not that. It's that when I came for addiction, I could see that so much of what we taught as human beings and our culture and old wives' tales and superstition and the morbid culture that we have around death, et cetera, et cetera, that it doesn't do us any favours. And I had to reteach myself all of that stuff whilst living in that culture, i.e., you know, UK culture. And I realised that there was stuff that it didn't have to be that way. So, you know, this thing that if someone dies, you've got to grieve, you've got to be miserable, you've got to blame yourself, you know, you've got to wear black to the future. I just rewrote all that. I said, sorry, I'm not doing it. I mean, okay, there's bits in you are tied so much into that conditioning that it's a work, you know, you've got to put effort in. But I think it was just through my own survival and not wanting to always live in pain, you know, that I've just rewrote the book, Gary, that's all it is. It's not that I was born with any kind of callousness or coldness or, you know, I remember looking at my mate's dead body and thinking, what would he want from me? You know, he literally just died on our holiday, drowned on our holiday and I could have gone down the route of, oh, woe is me and oh, I blame myself and I just decided that I'm not doing that. What would he, what would my mate Lee want? He'd want me to go on and smash my life and have a great time. That is it. So that's what I'm going to do. And yes, I say this, folks, I just hope it can help somebody, you know, not to buy into that, the tradition, because I think the tradition is, I think it's their purpose to keep us all miserable. Yeah, I kind of, I know my background, obviously, was just the family. Not necessarily bad people. My dad's dead now, but it was their background as well. And it was their background that just filled us through generations. And, you know, dads then were, you know, for me anyway, they were scary people. You know, I was scared of my dad. He could be the belt and things. He showed no emotion, but bless him. He probably had his own demons. So it's just passed down. You know, I can, I can look now at that. Whereas when I was young, I hated the man with a passion, but I'm in a better place now. And I can understand, you know, my mother threw me out of the house when I was 16. And I went to my dad's and I said, I said, dad, I need help. And I remember my dad's words stuck with me. You're a man's son. And I knew what he meant. So it took me to 33 year old causing loads of trouble and the people myself meeting Michelle to decide, okay, I'm going to have to do something about this. Because I know I can't live any longer. So that was it. But that was because my dad said that word. You're a man's son. I know what he meant. Gary, did it set you back with your mental health? So you were having therapy, you're making progress. Yeah. And then you had this challenge to deal with. Did that set you back massively or did it, were you in a better position to cope with it? It set me back. Chris, it's funny that I was speaking to Michelle about this last night before it came on. And I explained to her when Donna died, because Donna was in another hospital 50 mile from Birmingham. So Michelle was there and I had to travel up every day. And when I got there and Donna got, she was getting really well and she was getting moved back to Birmingham, where I live now. And she got a tummy bug. There's more to it. And there was a bug in that tummy and she died within 24 hours. You've been told she's better than being told she's not going to live. I just got to see her. But I remember Michelle's family there and some of Michelle's friends and I could mind walk and still see myself walking through the corridor. I couldn't even, I didn't want to acknowledge anybody who got into the car. And I remember going down the motorway. I think it was the M54, if I remember, I might be wrong there. Down the motorway. And I know I've seen myself that Michelle wasn't here. I've just gone across the motorway. And that's where my head was. I was here to get home and it's just, it's just not a nice place. It's the last place you want to be, to be honest, Chris. Michelle went to her mums and I just, I just wanted my life to end there. And then I thought, because I believed then it was my fault. But as time went on and I started to stick to my therapy and I was, you know, I was eight years under that psychologist, Chris, and we moved to Birmingham. And I used to travel twice a week to Cleathrop. So Grimsby it was, which is 135 miles there and 135 miles back. I would travel twice a week for my therapy and I never missed a session when the psychologist moved up to East Kilbride. I would go up to East Kilbride from Birmingham. You know, I just wanted to find out who I really was. I don't know if this makes sense, but that's what I, that's, that was the hardest battle as many battles I've had. That was, that was the hardest battles with, with myself, that one. And somewhere on the line, I started just looking at life. I'd been a bodyguard in a sense, but not, not to the nice people. So I wanted to change all that round, really. I started studying. I went into counselling within two years as a, as a trainer, as a counsellor, but I wasn't ready for it. So I stopped it then. Then I went to work in children's homes with kids who've been abused and things. Kind of learned it from a sense that the staff meant back and learned from the children as well and see what they were going through as well. What resonates with my background and things and all them children I've ever met over the years, Chris. Well, there's obviously none of them deserve to be there. They've just been dealt shithand like I had at that time, born into the wrong family and people around in the environment. So I packed that in. I went and worked with the homeless because I'd been homeless. Then I packed that and went and worked with the alcohol and drug addicts. Probably the most extreme ones in the streets and that. So I did, I did that for a couple of years. So that was learning these skills, picking up qualifications as a ex-lips. Well, I got thrown out of school at the end. Left school with no qualifications. Then I worked for an Irish wealth then when I loved this job, Chris. I absolutely loved, loved this job. I would go out and pick alcoholics up and take them to hospital, try and fight the corner to get them into detox and then get them ready for rehab and things like that. Sadly in 2010, you know, this country wasn't in a good place. I lost my job. So then I went back into the bodyguard and again, went to Africa, worked in Uganda for a long time, then went to Libya when the wall was on. Then from that went to Afghanistan. But when I came back from Afghanistan, I think it was 2000 and beginning of 2012, I think it was. I put myself back into college again to finish my counselling off. And through that, you know, I was cleaning toilets, you know, cleaning shit off people's toilets, just to make ends meet, doing the doors, just to get a bit of extra cash in the hand and things. Then just start building on things. And I developed my own programs for schools and I had this idea, put all my security background, all my life experience, all the stuff I've learned, worked with different people over the years and developed these programs called safeguarding me. So it was me going into school, working with 10-year-old kids, which I just absolutely love Chris. And seeing even at that age, Chris, because I can pick up on things quite quickly, the demons they were having, even about asking for help, you know, all them things. So I have about 50 stories. So I go in, the characters call little Billy. Some of them are my stories and some of them are children of words. I've made stories up, but they're all based on true stories. The kids love it and it allows the kids to speak up as well. And I take a box with me and they write down any problems I've got when I put the box in the box. You know what, Chris? Over the few years I've done that in the schools, which is it's heartbreaking, but kids have came forward saying they've been getting abused and things like that. So then the right people get involved and things like that. Sadly, COVID came and just sliced that all the way, took all my work away. So then I developed the thing that I'll do online counsellors. So somebody had held years ago, their daughter, she got in touch with me, who ran a big company and I started working kind of part-time with them just counselling on screen because obviously the mental health part and I just started to get back into the schools and I would deliver them to safeguard me. But I'm going to try and make that into a book as well, Chris. It's a book mentors can have, teachers can have, parents can have and it's everything from slow self-esteem, exploitation, knife crime, gans, all that stuff. But at the age appropriate for 10-year-olds, you know. So I really try and do, it does sound really wishy-washy, but I do really try my hardest to do good to help people like that. That's just my nature. Now I think it's really affirming gas because we've got a trust in this God or whatever it is up there because it's all for a reason and you wouldn't be doing this diamond job now with the kids. I couldn't do it, Chris. If you hadn't had these real tough experiences. It's like for myself, when people have said, oh, he's really turned his life around. And I'm like, you know, when they talk about mistakes of the past and I get it, Gary, of course I get it. But the thing is, my son's a gorgeous little kid, right? I'm just honoured. Sorry, it's probably not appropriate to be big in my son up. But you know, he's just everything, right? He's the most handsome kid that ever was created. He's the funniest, the kindest, the most loving. I wouldn't have had him had I not been through all these experiences that took me up to meeting his mum. You actually met his mum, we were drug workers. Couldn't have been doing that job had or not had the experience of my past. And so when people say, oh, you did it wrong, I say, no, I did everything right. It just didn't seem like it at the time. When I'm listening to that, I 100% get it. I didn't used to get it. But I do over the past few years, you know, like working on myself and that I definitely get it. Because if I was a counselor, I never had any experience. I know personally I couldn't work with that person. That's just how I counsel. So when I counsel somebody, they have to have almost something that I've went through so I can recognise it because I'm kind of more of like a life counselor. That kind of makes sense. Although I've got all the theories in that. Whatever comes in the door, I just work with. And what I usually do is I go out for a walk. I'm near a place called Sutton Park. So we'll go down there. I'm away for a walk and we're sitting in the lake next to other things. So I do that. I do me counsel through self-defense. You get blokes coming and half an hour doing the pads and different stuff. Then we'll just sit down and just have a chat like this, Chris. But I'm actually working with them at the same time. But it's just making it like a chat. And that's how I kind of do it really. I'm definitely not an academic counselor. I don't work hard because I'm there to qualify for things. It's massively overlooked, isn't it? All the fight clubs, whether it's martial arts or boxing, they do a great job with people, don't they? Massively because why does anybody want to take up self-defense? Am I just interested in that? But a lot of people come because of maybe their own background that something's happened and things. There's usually, as much as they're coming in, they're bringing issues in with themselves. So that's what I kind of do and just make it like a self-defense session and a chat and the same counseling. I do Reiki now and all them things. As a young lad, I thought, God, that's Ponzi and Puffy and Gay and all that, which is wrong. But that's how I thought a counselor was like. But it's not. Yeah, it's the opposite, isn't it? If you want to be a warrior in life, you've got to have the skills. Yeah. Life can be a battle if you don't have these skills. I love being away in the outdoors and I could get out there more. I'm quite happy in my own little world, to be honest. I like just going for walks whether it takes three days or 10 days. I'm at peace there. That's my antidepressant in a sense. Just being in outdoors, it works for me. I don't need the medication. Although I've been pumped for meds before, but that just helps me, that just being outside in nature. I think it needs to be promoted more, really, from doctors and things like that. I think it's important. What was it like when Michelle found out she was pregnant? With the twins, it was just over the moon, because we didn't think we could have children because we'd been trying for a while. I just remember coming in from work and she was there with this golden box and she opened it. And obviously the pregnancy test was just over the moon because, again, I have a son up north, but sadly, just the kind of person I was. I was kind of walked away from that when I was young. I've got to live with that one as well, but I just felt that I was wrong and that wouldn't have been a good father anyway. So to have this chance again and hopefully being a good father, which I would know I just wanted to be, not like my father. I wanted to be that father he wasn't really. It was just both over the moon, to be honest, and going for the scan and finding out I had twins. Then that was just even, you just can't imagine the relief. It was scary as well, because over the moon, but sadly, I'm a found out I had complications there. And it was that journey of watching your wife go through so much pain. You know, they used to put needles into her, like that, the drain fluid off her womb. She wouldn't, she didn't mourn or anything. She'd just, and for a man, you just want to swap places, don't you? And you go through the pain, not your misses. But she's, I mean, I keep saying this all the time. She was just an incredible lady, and I wouldn't have been here. And it's easy to say that now, but I wouldn't have been here today if it wasn't for her. I know I forgot to, she always said you had to do the hard work. And I, you know, I did, but I wouldn't have been here. I definitely, if I hadn't met her, like, because I had enough. And did you, from the scan, did you know they were girls? We knew they were girls. Michelle picked it up more than I did. She kind of sussed, there was something not right. And we were kind of, they kind of mentioned Down syndrome, but you know what? We didn't care. And if they'd been Down syndrome, I wouldn't have cared. Chris, to be honest. But then we had, we had to go to another hospital, the Birmingham Women's, where we found out that it was a twin to twin syndrome. And it's quite complicated trying to explain about that. But back then it wasn't a good thing to have. It's different now, where they use lasers, which it makes things a lot easier and there's a more survival rate now. But back in 2003, there wasn't a much chance really, like it was just hope really. But the people there, they're just, you know, and they were just the best people ever. And we were still in touch with some of them. Like I say, I've raised money for that hospital over the years as well. That's my trying to give something back really and just keep a daughter's memory alive really, like, because people sadly forget, you know, they see two children and they don't see, I've got four children, you know, to Michelle. Yeah. And how was the birth? The birth was, we were in Birmingham Women's Hospital. It was the 28 weeks. And they decided that the trouble was Michelle had to be rushed and then there was no beds in Birmingham. You know, it matters it sounds. Not for twins, there's beds in different hospitals. There's a single baby, but not for twins. So the only hospital I had a bed in was, beds was in the neonatal part in Shrewsbury, which was like 50 miles away. So I had to phone them and then obviously get rushed to Shrewsbury. Got to Shrewsbury. Michelle was just rushed in. Caesarean. Elana was born first and Donna came second. But even then, Chris, they had to get the, Michelle up to getting Chris into things, because I think she kind of knew more than I did. I was just, I'm one of them people. Michelle probably says it's denial, but I just believe, no, they're going to be all right. They're all going to be all right. I didn't want to think anything negative. They're going to be all right. They're going to be all right. They're all going to be all right. And sadly, Elana took the really bad turn, really. And she had to be rushed to Birmingham then. So then I had to drive to get to Birmingham. Michelle's dad took me, actually, because my car was still in Birmingham. And they had to be with Elana. And I got there just before she got there in the ambulance. I was waiting for Elana at the ambulance. And that was the children's hospital then. We had to go to the children's hospital. And Michelle was with Elana at Shrewsbury, 50 miles away. And I can only, for a mum, it was hard enough as a dad, but for a mum, I just, I don't know how she'd done it, to be honest. Because we just had to think we're not all right, because she was all by herself. It's all just gone terribly wrong, isn't it? Yeah. In the worst, worst. Massively. And Elana just, you know what she is, the life of three days. And I remember the consultant, I could kind of see her body was changing just the colour, Chris, on her body, especially her legs. It was almost the blood was shutting, they weren't getting to the legs. And the consultant says she's not, she's not going to live. So I had to make that phone call to Michelle. And I could, along with her, she said, yeah, I just, the screams at the end of the phone. And she was allowed to come to Birmingham, because she just had the cesarean, but she phoned her dad up. She was commonly, I can remember, sitting there with Elana. And I could hear the crying, Michelle came on the corner with her brother pushing on the wheelchair. So she'd got to hold Elana before she died. So, yeah. Gosh. And at that stage, Gary, was it, was it a distinct possibility that Dana could, could go to? Yeah, it was sad because they were both critical. They were both critical. Obviously, Elana was, you know, it was probably better words to explain this, but worse, worse state. So then, obviously, Elana died. And he'd do all the things, dress her up. And, you know, I didn't want Linda to get to the morgue. I want to take, it's called like a rainbow room. I want to take her there and put her in a little cup. But then I sat there and then I had to leave because Dana was in Shrewsbury. So Michelle's brother took us out there. You could imagine that journey. It was just, just un-unterrible. I'd phone my best mate because he's, he's, when you read the book, you'll see him come up a bit. You know, he's like my brother, really. He drove down from the Northeast that night to spend time with us and help me organise the funeral and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, that's obviously, you have the funeral and it's just, it's just all wrong because it's wrong for any parent. You'll notice yourself, it's, they're meant to be putting us in the soil, not all the way around, you know. So you're dealing with all that and obviously Dana was getting better and, you know, she was starting to get well and, and I would be doing, you didn't even have a chance to really grieve in my eyes, myself, you just, you're so trying to hope and be there for Michelle and, you know, all this stuff, all that stuff. And like I said, you know, she was getting better and the day she was getting moved, they found something wrong with our tummy with some sort of bug. You know, Michelle could tell you the exact words. I just didn't really want to hear the words, to be honest, Chris, it's just, you know, just tulked. It's just, it's just not going to love. She knows, so she never made it out of the hospital. Never made it at all, mate, no. There. And how was it, Gary, really dealing with people? Because I'm guessing a lot of people probably had no idea what you were going through and then what had happened? No, I mean, I am absolutely blessed, as much as I never got, I was the black sheep of my family, but I've got really good friends. And even though I've been away for 20 years from my hometown, I've still kept them friends. I just, they're family to me. They, they done their thing at home, let people, let people know. I mean, I don't know what part you got to the book, but I phoned my dad. I didn't know why I phoned my dad. Yeah, I had, I read that about three times. I was trying to work out, had he said something, and then I gather it's just the dynamic that was upsetting you. I just exploded and then I think it just all came out of my dad. And I didn't really know my dad was probably, he was really ill at the time himself, like, but it just all, all came out. Then I kind of thought I'm going to phoned my mom now, and my mom had to go at me for being a, and I just never spoke to my mom since. So that day, the day after Elana died, I've never spoke to my mom ever again. I've never seen her, never will Chris. They didn't turn up to the funerals. I think in some ways a funeral is not a nice place to be, but you can't build bridges and these, these things. And that was, that was just the end for me with my family, really like, you know, I get why they were the way because I was, I wasn't a good person when I was little and growing up and things. I brought a lot of trouble to the door. So, you know, I can't put my hand up and say that a lot of it was my fault, but, you know, I am a different person. I was much as it might have believed, you know, they had that thing where lipids don't change your spots while this lip I did, you know. But no, I've, I'm just, I've just been blessed with good friends because like, you know, like when you look at the time, you'll see that through the, through the book. They were my family, but I did find it difficult to speak to Michelle's family who come in and they're really loving and really caring family, you know, like, like what you should have as a family, you know, they're, and that, in my mind, so I am fine. I didn't want to talk about it at all, I'm fine, I'm fine. And I just, and I just cut people off constantly all the time. And it's, then you think, you want people to be there for you, but then you don't want people to be there for you at the same time, I couldn't handle it. So I just kind of put myself in my own little world, really, which I've done a lot of times in my, in my life. And I know that's just a survival mechanism that I've done all my life, really, just to, to get through things. Did you manage to keep the alcohol out of it? I struggled with actress because I remember coming home one night, I think, I think it's probably when Alana was in hospital, the centre's home, I didn't want to go home, I went, I think I couldn't sleep. And I had to pour the, I remember pouring the vodka and that down the, the, the down the sink and that, because I feel like I went right back on it then. And I still have that temptation, you know, I promised Michelle, 1999 I met her, I promised her, when I got married, I'll do my best to cut me drinking down, and which I have. And I've kept that for 20 plus years, Chris. I've never been pissed in 20 years. And for some, they love to drink, you know. And the only thing I might have, which maybe sound a bit crazy, I might have a little fruit cider now and again. That's just the one. And that's it. I still, I still, I try and avoid pubs and things. I know I have to go to pubs because of cajuns. It makes me feel uncomfortable, but I'm blessed for Michelle. I can get, when people get to a certain level with alcohol, whether, you know, they're just joking around and having that just disappear. I just go, we usually take two cars. So I take my car home and Michelle just stay there. But she doesn't mind that, like, you know, but for me, that not be person for 20 years or something. It's a, it's a big old thing, to be honest. Hey, you've done well, mate. That's all credit to you. And it's just, it's just battles, isn't it? Yes, the spiritual battle. I talk about it a lot now. It's, it's crazy that it's the most important thing in my life is winning that battle every day or at least trying to, you don't, you don't always master it every day. But to think that it's something in life that's most people haven't even got a clue exists. Yeah. And they're certainly not going to teach you at school. No, and definitely don't. You know, like I said earlier, I think with the mental health stuff, I think, you know, a lot of the comms starts, maybe it's secondary school and things that need to be when kids walk into the door really and learn about mental health and not be the shame of mental health, which, you know, I definitely had. And so, no, that's, that's, that's my life now. Chris is banging on and being trying to be an advocate about mental health and for me and things. Yes. And tell us, did you have two more children, did you say? Yeah, we had a daughter 11 months later, which seems really quick. You know, she's, she's 17 now, Chris, and bless her. She's had her own battles because she had, she's born with heart problems and things. She's severely dyslexic and dyslexic as well. She's inherited that. But she's my, you know, she's 17 and she's got that fighting spirit as well. She keeps going. She doesn't give up. Life hasn't been easy for her because of obviously heart problems and different things. Yeah. And she's had bladder problems. I mean, she, whereas she says, I've let her down. I've been overprotected and I know I have. And I know that's because I'm losing my two daughters. Then we had, we've got, I've got a son. He's, he's 15 to get us right next. I was 15 on Thursday, I think. And I'm blessed, Chris, because sadly some people lose children and don't have any more children. So I'm blessed to be able to have Aaron Dara's me son. I feel blessed, mate. Good. And they're good kids. Guys, tell us about your next charity challenge. Let's dive into this one. I'm going to do it for, as a charity just outside Burnham, it's called the Lily May Foundation. They lost their daughter and they set up a charity in the Lily May. So I'm going to do the Cleveland way, which will be the end of May. And I'm going to do it in three days. That's, that's three, three or four days, probably. I'll do that. I kind of set myself probably 30 mile, 25 to 30 mile a day. Tell us, tell us what that is for those of us. I never go, I never go. 110 mile walk. Kind of starts in York Channel and ends up on the northeast coast around where Philea is, around that way. It's not the most difficult walk. The one I've done a couple of years ago, I've done the coast of course, which you'd probably be aware of as well. And me and my mate done it in seven days, but I ended up in hospital after that. I had to, the last day I had to walk on heels for about 20 miles. My feet were just torn to pieces. And by walking on my heels, it's obviously affected my shins as well. So I ended up in hospital and they were concerned because I wasn't treating that, I was just popping the blisters as you do, but not looking after them. And I kind of got blood poisoning to my body really. But I raised over three and a half grand for the charity for that. And that's what I do. As much as it's for my daughters, it's good for my mental health as well, which is maybe hard to understand as some people. Why do you put yourself under that? And you've done a lot more extreme than I have, Chris. But it's actually pleasurable in some ways. It's a bit perverse that it's a sense of achievement. And again, it's keeping my daughters' memory light in some way because I chat to them every day, you know, all day morning and night. And I'll say, well, I'm struggling with your girls, you know, can you give us a little bit, you know? Well, 110 miles in three days, that's pushing it. Yeah, I've kind of, I think me mate says probably do four days, make it a bit more easier on yourself. It's not the hardest walk in some ways. There's a big in the start. And it's quite well-pathed as well. Whereas you'll know the coast to coast that the Cumbria side's not very, you know, you know, you're mapping compass really. I want to come on and ask you about that. Are you going to be sleeping in dormitories doing this? Well, if a mate does come, we'll probably sleep somewhere because he'll not do the camping like on the coast to coast, we slept places. And you know what, as much, because we want to do as fast as we could. So I kind of, you don't even see the walk really. So, but to have a shower or just that bath, you know, we'd get up at four in the morning just to set off and finish, but then get it cooked meal at the end of it. It was, you know, it was a little bit of a lottery. That makes sense. But I don't care how I do it. If it was wild camping or wherever, it doesn't matter to me really. And have you got a fundraising page set up yet for this one? I will do Chris. I'll have to speak to the Lily Mae. I have to confirm my mate might not be able to do it. So I'll have to do it myself. So I just have to make sure what he's doing. I'm doing it anyway. It'd be the end of me. I know that if he can't do it, I'll just do it myself. I've done the last one myself. So, yeah, let us know as soon as you get a fundraising page so we can put it below our YouTube chat. No, I'll do it. I'll do it about 100% then, you know, even 50p doesn't matter. If you put all your viewers get 50p, it's a lot of money, pound, isn't it? Yes. Oh, very much so. And it's for a good cause. And they do extremely good work. It's how many's wife do it. And I think the dad's involved as well. And they do loads of stuff around the Midlands area and that, you know, for therapy, for more men to set up, you know, for men to talk on that as well. And I've done a podcast with them a couple of years ago, just doing what we're doing here, just to talk about what I went through as a dad. And I think when people see a bald head and cover in tattoos, it kind of opens things up a little bit more sometimes to the man's world. And, you know what I mean, Michelle was before COVID, we were on building sites, we're going on construction sites, talking about mental health and using my story. And Michelle's a glamour part of it. And she tells a story living with somebody with mental illness because I think that needs to be heard as well. And how difficult it is for my wife had to change her life to cope with me if that makes sense. So she needed a therapy to end it as well to find hers. So, you know, it's just been open, isn't it? And just it's quite raw to listen to, but it's what I want to do, Chris. It's what I find hard to do, but I want to do it as well. But no, that's what I want to do in my life and just get my next book out as well, my life story. Have you thought much about the circle of life? I have, yeah. And what sense would you say? Well, to take the sting out of death, and this goes back to what I was saying about having to reteach myself stuff that my parents generation never taught us. Yeah. So I kind of come to figure out that we're all made of carbon molecules. So you're made exactly the same as me. And we're all through this amazing thing called evolution. We're all the universe developing. So essentially, we're actually the universe. We're not, we're universe first. We're people second, right? This is just an identity. And it's almost, if you're to think of two rocks on the beach, and to give them identity, this one's called John, this rock's called Fred. People would think you're crazy. They say, no, they're just rocks. They're part of the universe, right? That's really easy for people to understand. But because we've been almost like indoctrinated from birth to think that we're this birth certificate identity, I'm Chris, you're Gaz, you're nothing to do with me. It was actual fact, no, we're the universe experience in itself, right? And the universe is constantly changing form. And there'll be new life, and there'll be death. And if we didn't have the death, we wouldn't have the new life. And so when we think of our loved ones that have gone before us, they haven't actually gone anywhere. They've just changed the form that they're in. And to show you, or to example, how beautiful this can be, if people can get their head around it, is I was doing some cementing out front with my little boy, and this leaf blew past, and my little boy went, oh, look, there's granddad. You know, it's so beautiful. That's what I'm trying to instill in him is that, when we die, we just become a part of the birds, the bees, the landscape, the sky, the rain, a carbon molecule. We can't actually go anywhere. No, I do understand that. I know, like for myself, I'm not a religious person in a sense. I'm not a spiritualist in a sense, where I'm right up there, where I am learning as today's weeks and months go by. It suits who I am, to be honest. And I know I find a white feather. And yeah, you could say the birds flying in the form, but I find a white feather. Only one, I don't find two. And I always think that's a lana. And it'll be in the, I even got my car. It was a white feather on the car, and I picked that car. That's what, so, and you find it in the most extreme things where you think, how has that got here? And that's how I think. So, whether that seems funny to some people, it keeps me peace. That's a lana. Michelle always finds two. And I always think, because I was the one who spent all the time on my lana until she died, I always think it's her. Because she was first passed, really. And I put every ounce of my body and everything that people will her to survive, you know? So I think she always comes to me like, and that's just who her doesn't matter. It keeps me peace. Yeah, definitely. But I do believe in that, though. I wanted to ask you, Gary, when you did the coast to coast walk, did you go through a place called Shapp? I can't. It doesn't ring a bell. I'm not saying that because the problem with my mates called Beanie, the problem that I asked her to, we just had heads down. I'd like to do the coast to coast again, but do it over 14 days to see it. What are you asking that? Oh, it's just when I ran from John O'Groats to Land's End, it's quite a funny circumstance, actually. I had one night it was really windy, all like gale force wind and rain to match. And I'm just there in flimsy running gear. I had a waterproof, but nothing really substantial. And just as I was about, I was looking over the, there's lots of walls in that part of the country, aren't there? And there's lots of sheep and this kind of landscape. And I was looking over these rock walls, thinking, can I pitch my tent there? Can I pitch? I was basically looking for somewhere it wouldn't blow away because the wind was that strong. And then finally I came upon a light on the edge of a village called Shat. And I'd resign myself to running through the village to then look for a camping spot again, because obviously you can't park on the road, although I did park a camp on a few village greens. And as I'm running towards this light, a sign came up and it said, oh, it's a backpacker, like a hostel. Right. I can't remember the name of it. And I knocked on the door and I'm thinking, please, please, please. And the guy answered and I said, have you got any rooms? He went, yeah, we've got two people just cancelled. So you've got a four man room all to yourself. I'm like, yes. And then he said, broccoli instilled in soup. Yes. And it wasn't till I sat down to breakfast in the morning there that there's a few other hikers there. And they were all doing this coast to coast thing. And it was the first that I'd ever heard of it. It's, but apparently it's the kind of narrowest point of. I think it worked out as 210 mile-bath. We've done more than that. And that was only because we got lost. It wasn't, I think the whole distance 210. I think you can do it narrower. You can do it narrower with it. If you go on a push bike, you can definitely do it. I think it's 90 or something or maybe wrong there, but it's not to know any of the walking. But it's the hardest thing I've ever done. I know that I know for me. I do want to do it again, but to enjoy this time and see the landscape because we made my palm so much of the landscape because it was just heads down. It consumes you. Getting to that finish line consumes you, doesn't it? Passively like you just want to get there, don't you? Yes. Yes, you do. Gary, listen mate, it's been absolutely wonderful chatting to you. I'm going to the positive here because it's obviously a terribly traumatic part of your life and Michelle's as well. But the fact you've come on and you've been so open to talking about it, I can't thank you enough, mate. Thanks for giving us the opportunity, Chris. It really means a lot to me because it gets the word out there still, doesn't it? And I just want to keep that rolling, so I really appreciate your time as well, mate. Well, if we can help one person, then we've done our job, haven't we? But I know we'll help an awful lot more than that. This will mean a lot to some people, I know that. Thank you, Chris. And there you go, friends. I'm sure my editor Luke will get a copy of the book covering the podcast several times, but there we go. Daddy and the Two Bears, available from all good bookshops and obviously Amazon. Yeah, you get definitely Amazon, yeah. Yeah, grab yourselves a copy. And Gary, let's keep in touch. No, definitely. Well, Chris, I appreciate your time, mate. Yeah, and give our love to Michelle. I'll do it. Take care, Chris. Bye, mate. Stay on the line, brother, so I can thank you properly. But to our friends at home, thank you for joining us for another episode of Bought the T-Shirt. I hope you got as much out of that as I did. Massive love to you all as well. Please like and subscribe. And we'll see you next time.