 Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to another fireside chat with product school I am here with Jacob nettle-blatt of my Mentimeter sorry nearly said something else Thank you so much for joining us Thank you. Thank you for having me. Okay, so Yeah, let's dive right in. I'm so curious to learn about the things you guys are up to at Mentimeter and how you got started So how did you find your way into product management? Um Not super deliberately. I start on engineering school I started industrial engineering and management at the Boyle Institute of Technology which is in Stockholm, Sweden Which gives you really like wide platform to to apply for different jobs you and I couldn't really decide what to do So I went with management consulting because that felt like really broad as well And after doing that a couple of years I had like a long list of companies and jobs I was really not interested in but I hadn't find kind of like what I really wanted to do So I joined King The Candy Crush company Working with with data-driven business development in their business performance department I'm working a lot with their actual games and that's where I realized it's super fun Enabling people to build products that a lot of people use and there's a lot of data in those games, of course So there was a lot of fun things to work with I was working with one of the new Candy Crush titles at the time And then eventually I moved to San Francisco with King to work with business performance related to their platform Partnerships that collaborations with Apple and Google etc Which was super fun because San Francisco is an amazing city to be in but I also felt a bit Disconnected from the actual products from the game So now I was working the support function is that and I was kind of missing out on the actual product action And that's where about the time we're meant to meet or reached out Hiring for a VP of product because they were gonna like take their product big and they needed someone to help them grow So that's when I went like back deeper into product and I haven't regarded since that was two and a half years ago Nice so what kind of things are you guys up to at Mentimeter? Can you tell us a little bit about the product and what kind of things you're offering your customers? So Mentimeter is an interactive presentation platform So we basically build a presentation tool not very dissimilar to Google slide It's a presentation tool within your browser But everyone in the audience who participates connects to the presentation So if I would be in a room holding a presentation on the big screen Everyone would join the presentation with their phone and they can give their input throughout the presentation They can give you thumbs up or thumbs down or you can plant questions within your Presentation that people can interact with and you kind of gauge the room in real time and the audience can also ask you questions as a presenter through a built-in Q&A so we build a kind of more inclusive and interactive way of presenting and While we're just while we're talking about Mentimeter I hear that you're versioning your organization. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what's happening? Yes, so we're We're constantly iterating and rolling forward with with the organization in the product department And the product department I should say at Mentimeter is both like engineering design and product management We call it the product department and we always version the organization. We don't do big reorgs We're currently on product organization 1.9 1 Because I think like big reorgs are scary People know that this is huge change coming You don't really know which team you'll be in who will be your manager people are a bit scared and it creates insecurity That's someone like over your head is taking the decisions that affects your everyday working So we never do reorgs, but we constantly adjust the organization with small changes Moving someone from a team to another team creating a new team out of Previously larger team and those minor adjustments almost on a monthly basis and that's why we use version numbers I think it's a good way to To remove like the insecurity and uncertainty that the big reorgs And I guess that means that you're setting the expectation With your teams that things are going to constantly change and it doesn't sort of have that fear factor of oh god One big change Definitely, so I mentioned I joined two and a half years back the product team back then were eight people I think Now we're moving towards a hundred people. So we're growing very very quickly. So there's definitely gonna be change and Versioning your organization and always talk about the small adjustments that are coming is a great way to kind of Embrace the change because we say that like the only concept that meant a meter is change and we need to accept it So with with all of these changes in mind I guess that means that you're often looking at like the the short-term changes like what's happening now But in terms of the long term, what do you think the future for Mentimeter is and how will the future hybrid workspace affect that? I think like the hybrid workspace especially when it comes to our product I think we have a very like compelling offering for for the Remote workspace in the hybrid workspace. So as I mentioned Like we put people in contact with your presentation. So if your presentation is on the big screen and I'm in the room I would join it with my phone and I could interact with it Which was kind of built for in the room meetings that happened and then suddenly about a year ago everything turned remote and it turns out we're the perfect tool to use in remote settings as well because Like you all have these big sue meetings and all hands and someone on stage asks you like how are you guys doing? How's your week and you can't have a hundred people on muting at the same time But you can create a poll within your presentation and have everyone Remote they contribute to the discussion or by thumbs up or thumbs down or we're asking questions So we turn out we work really well for remote setting as well And we will definitely be working well in a hybrid setting For sure because even if you're like at a big venue With half of the people in the room and half on the people remote The discussion is most likely gonna take place in the digital meeting because that's the only place where the remote participants Can participate and it's a bit clunky for for people in the room to bring their computers and join the zoom call For example, but everyone can join the presentation through their phone And then suddenly you level the play field between remote and present people in in the hybrid workspace So I'm super excited for the kind of new ways of working because I think our product will fit really well And for for you personally How have you found the move to working remotely because I know some product people in particular Find it difficult from a leadership perspective to be able to lead your teams Even as great as remote tools are there is just that magic of being in the room. So how have you found it? It's challenging for sure. And as you mentioned, there are a lot of great tools to kind of bridge it But to me, I think it's It's it's hard. It's challenging and I think it depends a little bit on what kind of leader you are I try to be like as close to the people in my team as possible and always like make room for small talk and like check on Them how they're doing and there's so many things Caught in between meetings just like happening in the corridors, right? And it's very hard to substitute those small interactions with booked meetings in someone's calendar or slack messages So I'm it's it's a challenge for sure And something I I need to get better at being like more spontaneous with my zoom scheduling as well and not only rely on the like In the room meetings that have yeah, absolutely So I'm dying to dive into questions about product in general because I got a bunch of you ask you What would you say are some of the biggest myths and misconceptions about building digital products? I think some people at least people who haven't been working with digital products still has this Perpetual startup garage thing in their mind People still think that Mentimeter is built by three dudes in a garage with a laptop each and where this soon to be a hundred people large product organization because Building really really great software that looks good and scales and is compatible with all the platforms That's a huge undertaking and I think people sometimes underestimate Like the amount of work that goes into it because it's digital means it's just super quick You just write another line of code and you have a new feature, right? That's not really how it works if you if you've been on the inside Yeah, you almost want it you want to give these people who say that say that it's easy And that it's like five people in a garage you want to give them a peek behind the scenes Yeah, all of these people doing all of these things. Yeah, and there's like Enterprise versions of your product and there's compliance that that needs to be taken into account. I'm like legacy and take that It's it's complex for sure. It's super fun and super challenging But you still need a lot of people if you're going to do it like large scale and have hundreds of millions of users What would you say are some of the most important skills that product managers need to succeed in this like new products world that's being built I think you like if you want to If you want to move into product management I think you really need to have like the good people skills, which to me I'm like this Pretty extroverted social person. It's easy to make those interaction happen in real life as we talked about but I Think if you want to be a good product manager now in the remote world I think you need kind of a set of tools and ways of working to be that kind of people person Even though you don't meet with your people as much at least to me That's a new challenge. It's meant to me. It was not a distributed company before the pandemic But that that's something that I think is really important because it's all about people at the end right who builds the product and designs the features and As a leader, what new skills have you had to develop or gain as you moved into a position of authority? I like always see the people behind the change like Like drawing this perfect organization on a whiteboard is really really easy But actually have it happen and have everyone being content with the change. That's super hard That's that's so much more worth than just like initially sketching it out So that's why I think we work with the like Versioning of the organization because sometimes I have this bigger vision of a larger organization But that's not going to be my big reorg. It's maybe going to be 10 Incremental steps towards that larger vision because that really brings people along the way And I think like a great skill to have is to be Proactive with with decisions and like let people know that things will change and ask for their input And let them know that you're thinking about Maybe doing this change in the future and bring people on board with your thoughts because then eventually when the decision comes Or the change happens people already have heard about it and they kind of familiar with the thoughts Maybe takes some decisions slightly longer time to take but overall I think the transition is much smoother That you do the kind of change management gradually up until you make the change rather than making the change in them manage People's expectations afterwards It sounds like as a leader and as a company you really value your your teammate's sense of security It's and it's one is one thing that a lot of companies say that they really value feedback from everyone and that everyone's opinion Is welcome, but it's another thing to make sure that people Really feel that they really feel like their opinions are welcome Is that something that you actively have to work on at Mentimeter or does everyone already know that their opinions are valued? You definitely need to work on it and I don't think there is a place where everyone automatically just Assumes that your opinions are valued just because that happens to be one of the five core values on your career side I think it's something you have to work with every day because after all we all want to have as high Psychological safety as possible because that's we know that theory tells us that that's where the greatest innovation and the greatest product happen And I think to us it's maybe Easier to talk about because a lot about what our product is about is also Making people feel included and make that feel heard because you can always contribute with your voice in a meeting through Mentimeter and if you have like a Question and everyone gets to vote on something. Everyone has an equal voice through their phone in the poll Which is also a great way of leveling the playfield because it's not the loudest voice in the room That is typically heard but everyone's opinion counts equally much and you don't have the phenomenon where the where the Maybe most dominant person in the room expresses their opinion first and then everyone kind of quietly agrees Maybe someone had much better opinion. That's a great way to harness that anonymously through Mentimeter for example It's so great that one of the core values of your organization is one of the like core features of your products Which is collaboration. That's really nice Exactly, so we often say that our organization and our product and our values. It's the same thing But we believe in this so strongly as a way of running companies that we actually build the product that helps Other companies do the same. So yeah, I really believe in it for sure The best tool to build is the one that you need every time Yeah, which makes it easier for other people to be those kind of inclusive and listening Engaging leaders, especially now in rhythm of times definitely something that the world needs more of one of the one of the big topics of conversation that we're seeing in terms of like Professional development and like what personal growth in terms of professional development is doing things that don't necessarily scale Not as a business, but as a as an individual. Is there anything you intentionally keep yourself doing even if it doesn't scale? Yeah, a lot I think So like being in hyper growth it means that a lot of things will change and like I Think we've sometimes been a little bit slow with more senior hiring We we tend to hire someone more junior people that we really really strongly believe in and then we like Nurture them and see them grow But one should not underestimate like the importance of actual experience At least in the areas of hyper growth and how to set up autonomous teams that scale etc I think If I could change something that would maybe be bringing in more experienced people more Early on because I notice myself doing a lot of the things that that don't scale now that were like exponentially Larger than when we started out And obviously Mentimeter is in your in your tech stack of the things that you use on a day-to-day basis What are the tools are you finding particularly helpful at the moment? I Miro, of course, I love everything. They're doing especially a huge fan of their successful like viral business model Which I think a lot of companies in remote work has noticed they've fallen to like the the myro conversion trap, which I think is brilliant So I really like what they're doing We've been in contact about doing something together. Maybe so let's see what happens there. There's nothing tangible yet Figma, of course, I love how quick the designers can make Clickable prototypes in Figma that we can try out I still make my own clickable prototypes in PowerPoint still because that's how I was trained as a management consultant, but Figma really helps and Trello, I Think Trello has a really great power-up model where you can add features along the way So we currently use Trello with all power-ups. They are And that keeps us from moving to Jira for example, so I think Trello really works with the kind of We want to be a platform and have an app store model. I think they've achieved in a way that works for us For example, I don't think a lot of people use plugins to Google Slides, for example But there's an app store for that, but the Trello one is really successful And what advice would you give your younger self as you were progressing in your career? Just like Study if you want to move into product management like study companies you think have done an exciting journey like Maybe backtrack Trello, for example at what point in their growth Story did they add a power-up concept and how did that evolve over time or what has that meant for them? And and try to understand why you like what companies do and also the opposite try to study Like products you may be liked before but then somehow degraded and what decisions did they take along the world that the kind of Failed or weren't the right ones because it's very easy to say like I'm a fan of Apple products They're awesome But everyone likes Apple products like Try to find something else and try something you don't like and if you can explain why you don't like it I think that's very valuable Input to have so like the product strategy side to me is always Interesting to hear people talk about and as long I'm convinced as long as you have a like a nose for Product strategy and you're a general people person. I think you can be an excellent product manager Mm-hmm. And what advice would you give to people who maybe Worry that they don't have the right background like we mentioned experience Where there are not not an overwhelming amount But there are a lot of companies who only want people with experience and it's that yeah an egg problem How do you get experience if you don't if you can't get them? What advice would you give to people who are have almost got like a clean slate? They've never done anything with that similar product before. How would you suggest that they get started? I? Think you can always like gather experience in some way It doesn't have to be strictly professional experience that you have worked as a product manager before I think you can still like acquire a lot of interesting product management skills and insights on your free time As we talked about previously like study companies you like and study companies You don't like and try to figure out why because if you're applying for example to to a role Which you don't have experience for if you add maybe in your resume or if you reach out to LinkedIn to to someone In a hiring position at those teams Add some add some text to it like you give your own thoughts How would you take like how would you? Develop that product if you were a product manager or have you observed like yeah observed a an opportunity? in a direction of that product could be growing or something like that you can always Try to impress people with hypothetical insights, right? And those insights can be based on either actual experience or just you being a product interested person regardless of what actual work experience you have Absolutely, so I've got just one more question for you. I just want to say thank you so much for joining us It's been absolutely pleasure having you here So my final question is There's a lot of different components to working in products You've got obviously your your meeting with your teams your when you're in a leadership position you're you're working on Growing your your teammates and then you've also got to do some of your own individual work But what's your favorite bit about being a product manager? What's what's the part of your day where you really think yes? This is what I love doing collaboratively wireframing on a whiteboard being in like solution and exploration mode and Try to come up with cool ideas and then shoot them down and then sketch on something new and you see something like There's potential here. There's something cool coming out of this and to me. I still have Had to find a tool remote that can facilitate facilitate that kind of joint Creativity that can happen in a room with a whiteboard Myro is great in a lot of ways, but there's something magical about like actually being there With the pen in your hand and being a bunch of people taking turns sketching solutions as I Love that and some of the some of the best mentor me your solutions have come out of those joint Meetings where you just get to be super creative. I wonder if maybe we'll end up in like in a few years time We'll end up in like VR rooms and there's like a VR whiteboard in front of us And we're all writing on this VR whiteboard together. That would be maybe yeah, maybe maybe VR for everyone With full duplex sound where you can be like as loud or quite as you work Want to and like everyone speaking over each other just as happened as it happens like in the physical room Maybe then we've nailed the remote creativity. Yeah, maybe I haven't thought about VR before But maybe that's the solution for it because I feel there's something I really miss now that everything's remote I think the things like Christmas parties over VR that would be that would be hysterical. I'd be really Uh, that's all the time that we have unfortunately again Thank you so much for joining us and thank you everyone for watching. I hope you've got some really cool insights from that Keep an eye on men to meter. I think they've got some really cool things coming up in the future. Bye Bye