 I'm Angela Clutton, and it's my huge joy to be able to work on the food season with Polly Russell and with Melissa Thompson. Hello to the youth in theatre, but also we have lots of people joining us online, so hi to you guys too. You online have a little tab where you can ask questions, and you have a lot of tab where you can buy books. Those of you here, IRL, can buy books at the end as well, and these guys are going to sign them. Social media everywhere, obviously, and it's had just the most enormous impact on the food community, how we feed ourselves, how we think about food, how we engage with others in the food community. Some of us love it, maybe these guys, some of us hate it, that'd be me, but not many of us can really ignore it. We have an absolute brilliant panel here tonight, led by Ita-Marshrudovic, who is one-half of Honey & Co, and a source of joy, I think, on social media, so he's going to lead us through. You are, darling, you are. He's going to lead us through, so I shall hand over to Ita-Marshrudovic. Thank you so much. Very few people have called me a source of joy, but I'll try and live up to it, it's a high bar. Hi, so I'm not actually scrolling, I'm not doing my socials right now. I have all my notes on this, and this is part of the thing now. We're always with our phones, and we're always kind of like a little bit here, a little bit there, but we're all on silent, and we're all on airplane mode here. That's what we're supposed to be. Chetna. Sorry. It's okay, don't worry about it. Started. Guys, thank you so much for joining us tonight. We have an amazing panel here that's going to cover all of social media. Tomorrow morning we're going to wake up to a new dawn, and all of our social media and food issues will be resolved, right? Yes. We have the wonderful Chetna Macan here, we have Poppy O'Toole, we have Ed Smith. Big hand to all of them. So we're going to start a little bit with establishing your social media likes and dislikes. Your favourite accounts. Yes. Sorry, I've taken pictures, I'm rubbish with names. One of the people I love following is an Indian chef, Saran Shkoela, and his account brings so much joy. If I've seen his video, I cannot scroll past. I absolutely look forward to his stuff. The other one I absolutely love is Caroline, who is an American-based food writer, and I absolutely love her stuff. She just talks to you and kind of everyday stuff, but she again brings joy, you know, into the food. So I absolutely love her account. Amazing, you're all following already, eh? Poppy, yours? Mine is more of like a guilty pleasure sort of one. So there's this guy on TikTok called Quarry's World, and he's a Welsh guy, and it's him and his girlfriend, and it's what I eat in a day most of it. It's not cooking, but it is one of the best things I've ever seen in my life. I have like a pizza for breakfast. This is the way I want to live. They have like a pizza for breakfast. Aspirational lifestyle, yeah. Hot for breakfast, and then like with mayo and chips. What a combination, yeah, absolutely. And then they'll have like, he'll be like, I can't do a Welsh accent, so I'm not going to try it. And then he'll be like, I'm eating healthy, so I'm only having a triple cheese burger and 20 chicken nuggets for lunch, and I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what I want to have. That's a detox. And then it's like, then he has tea, then he has dinner, and he has a late dinner. And it is just like, that is, if I could live like that, I will live like that one day. That is my aspiration. I would definitely want to live and just eat pizza for breakfast. That is how I want to live. This is the dream. I know it's not particularly like food, food, but that is how I want to eat. So that's one of my things. Yeah, yours, Ed, which is what makes your... I've got three kind of low-key good things. So low-key good cooks. So Millie Taylor's been on Instagram for as long as I have, and she's a brilliant cook and chef, and also just is a really nice insight into her life and her work. And I feel like I'm engaged with it because it's nice and good, not because she's trying to be anything. New account, a friend of mine called Jesse, has an account called Addip. It might be Addip Food, but Addip is standing for Another Day in Paradise, and he's a former photographer slash film student who also has worked as a chef, and he makes beautiful little vignettes about good, tasty food. And one of the mob guys at the moment, Ben Lipit, dinner by Ben, I think. I think he's really nice to watch. OK, which account did you unfollow recently? Do you know, we should talk about this later, because I'm really bad at unfollowing, so my account is cluttered. I think I probably unfollow brands that I follow, so I don't have an account. OK, you're doing a brand cleanse. How about you guys? I think I started following too many restaurants, and I thought, why do I need to follow, not you, I'm still following Honeycomb. Needless to say. But I think I was just like, I'm not going there, I don't live there. Why am I following these restaurants? So I have cleansed the restaurants I thought. So it's more of a housekeeping thing? Yeah, you have to keep updated with it, because you also meet so many people, and I will still follow you guys, but you follow them after two, three years. You think, oh my God, when did I meet? Why am I following? You have to keep your timeline nice and fresh. I'm not an unfollower at all. As soon as I follow, for me, it sounds terrible guys, unless they've unfollowed me, I will not unfollow. But how would you know they've unfollowed you? You can go online and just search who's unfollowed you. But that must die now. You can see who's unfollowed you. For me, because I've grown up in Facebook era, an unfollow is like... That's it. So I will never start that war, but I'll just participate in it if they unfollow me. You want to bring it? Yeah, that's it. Are you aware of the concept of hidealicious? Do you know what it is? It's when you're following an account, and you watch them and you hate them, but you'll never unfollow. Because it's like picking a scab. You're like... There are a couple of accounts I have to say, but they're not... They are food kind of related, which is why I started following them. But they're not really doing food related stuff anymore. And I don't want to... It's all about life lessons, and I just... I love the life lessons. Give me the life lessons. There's so much hatred towards the followers, and I think, why are you here? Just get off and live a healthier life. Just, you know... I'm stuck all in full of them! Yeah, but no, it riles you up. I'll go first, but I've... Do you know the guy that makes really elaborate sort of cakes that look like fruits? Cedric Grolet. Which I kind of like... I find it fascinating, but I also... Why are you doing this? Also, I went to his bakery, and his stuff is amazing, but also, what are you doing, man? Why do you hate it? Because it's so over the top and crazy and excessive, and it's like... But you haven't unfollowed, you love to hate it. I love it, and I search him out, and say, what are you doing? But then it gets me angry, and... That's brilliant. But this is what I'm kind of like... We have these really strange relationships and really weird things come up, and it's kind of like... quite surprising, because it's... We kind of control it, we kind of curate it, but it's not really, is it? No, mine's mukbang. I obsessed with mukbang videos. What is it? Mukbang is someone eating... I think it derived from... China, I think, or the Far East it came from, and it's people eating so much food. And it's really crazy. And it's like... Whilst they eat, and it's incredible, but it makes me feel sick at the same time. I can spend... And sometimes there'll be turtles being it, and I'm like, I don't want to watch this, but I also really want to watch this at the same time, and I want to try that food, and I'm like... And it makes my skin crawl, but I love it at the same time. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Guys, tell us each one of you about your weapon of choice. You all have very different mediums. Discuss. Chetnau, you begin. Mine is YouTube. I love YouTube. That's my favourite. I look forward to recording something for YouTube, but it's not scripted or it's not planned. So if I'm like yesterday, I made a cake for my parents, I filmed it. So if I'll make something for my kids, I'll film it. And I could be wearing pajamas, which most of the times I am. And it's... I mean, your pajamas are more elegant than anything I ever own, but okay. But it is... You're the stylist, yeah. No, but it's my favourite because it's my kitchen, my home kitchen. It is my everyday life and yeah, I get to share that with my audience. So YouTube is my favourite medium. Yeah, and it's having a little bit of a moment now. It's sort of... I think we will discuss this in a bit, but for me it's not about what is... I've never been on TikTok, sorry. I've just... Just not for me because I only made an account in lockdown because my daughter wanted to do some dance videos with me. My TikTok videos were dance videos with my daughter. So I just think I've never been a trend follower. Even when I was working in fashion, I never followed the colour of a forecast. I just don't want to follow trends because that's ridiculous, which is why I don't think just because YouTube is having a moment down there. I've been there for... You can repurpose your YouTube content into a 60-second TikTok content and then you're covering two platforms of one stone. So that's what I do for Instagram. I use my Instagram... Put it on there as well. That's how I see all of the social media platforms. I thought you were going to say what I was thinking in that. I would love to see you dancing with your daughter. I think that would be magic. Downside of the platform, what's difficult for you about it? Oh, I don't think... For me, I personally don't think there's a downside. I have had very slow growth and sometimes I feel frustrated because it's not... But then I'll sit back and think I'm not doing anything especially for it. I film it, I edit it, I post it, I respond... So I'm a one-man band. I haven't got an assistant. So... And then if I see the progress and the growth, I'm very happy with it. So it has to be... I can hire a team, but do I want a team? Is the question. Child labour, I think, was mentioned. Sorry, I have a team. If you have a team, you just pay them with food and giving birth to them rather than... Poppy, tell us about TikTok. So TikTok is my main platform where I've got 4 million followers. Wow. But it is very fickle, I suppose TikTok is, whereas if you've got a YouTube, you've got dedicated subscribers, so 4 million followers doesn't necessarily translate into anything else because you follow someone for one video. You might never see them again on your For You page unless you search them out. So there's a small community of people who have followed me on TikTok for years. Paul's in the audience. So there are some more dedicated community there, but it can be come and go, whether people are going to stay on top of what you're doing, and it's a constant, so you have to be posting every single day to be relevant within TikTok and have your videos being pushed out. I've been busy in life, so I haven't had the time to be doing that much content. So I've seen a decline in the videos that I do put out as and when I can. Don't get the reach that they did when I was doing series of food content. So it's more of a fickle way, and I think everyone goes, oh, the algorithm, but it's not really consistency is the algorithm on TikTok. But you touched on it about the cross pollination, because I know you from Instagram, so I've seen all your content there. And that's kind of like hitting another. Yes, exactly. So I use the same, I repurpose, so I started with TikTok initially when I started, and then I kind of tried to channel people over to my Instagram because that is where we very usually know like where the work comes into it sort of thing, you know, with brand deals and all that sort of stuff, and that's where you can kind of make a living from more so on Instagram. It's definitely changed now where you can do both. So I was initially just repurposing all the videos that I put on, you go on to, I get really annoyed about, you know, the little stamps of TikTok it says it comes up with your thing if you put it on to Instagram. So I go over, I transfer all them and download them so they get no stamp on it, put it on to my Instagram, put a trending Instagram song on to it, and then it's another video. So I always repurpose them, and again, Pinterest is one that you can repurpose them on to and is a really big growing platform for creators as well, and you can do YouTube shorts as well now. So it's repurposing because all of these people on these different platforms are a completely different audience, they probably haven't seen your stuff before, so you can monopolise on all of them. Edd, on Instagram, ruining my Friday morning with your eggs that I salivate over. I Instagram is my thing, I suppose. Well, not like Poppy said. But I've been on it ever since it started, like 11 or 12 years ago, growing gradually organically alongside other things that I do, never trying to peak, and then occasionally getting jealous of people that go like that. So I think what I love about Instagram is I think you still can feel like it's a community of people of well-wishers. And I like creating stuff visually. I do a lot of writing. So the pictorial and now video content remains enjoyable for me. What I dislike, I suppose, is that I feel like I've been turned into a one-man content creation studio for the benefit of meta. But I can't leave it because it is part of my portfolio of things that I do. So it's a sort of give-and-take situation. And also I don't feel like unless you play the game I like to pretend that I don't care about what it means or growth and that success which we're going to touch on. But equally I don't necessarily think that actually probably social media in general rewards quality unless you really try. Okay, interesting. But let's talk about that a little bit. Let's talk about success. Wait, just like a minute before let's talk about the business model about how it works. Because it is to some extent or another it's quite time-consuming and it is almost it can be a job. How does it work for each of you? How much time do you put in? What do you get out? It's a touchy question. It's so different to when social media started 15 years ago. That could be I started doing a lot of stuff on Instagram because I changed career from being a corporate lawyer and I went to catering college and whilst we were there we were encouraged to take pictures of our food. And as that happened that was sort of 2012 so I was able to take pictures of great food put them on the internet as it was part of my life. And people with hobbies started now if you want to put content on the Instagram generally it takes a lot of time a lot of it's video content unless you're happy to put something you're walking around doing your day which I'm not. That is a job to create a film whether it's 10 seconds or one minute. It is and actually the standards are quite high. So I tell myself that I have one to two days a week to film and edit stuff. I don't know what the and I try because I'm not very good at because I'm a man not very good at like doing lots of things at once so I have to compartmentalise and in theory I want to give myself one or two days to do that sometimes that work will be actual work paid content that companies are paying me to promote their products with other times I have to tell myself that it is being productive because the paid work doesn't come unless you're constantly creating stuff and uploading two good things a week plus a bit. I spend quite a lot of time in Instagram stories which is much more off the cuff and easy and fine and I don't feel like I'm taking lots of time doing it but the actual content creation is now definitely something that I think I either need to spend one or two days a week or one week a month otherwise I just don't get my books written I don't get recipe articles done it just doesn't happen because it can really drift into your life. It's really hard to limit it but still you know one or two days a week that's a part-time job. I think some people are much better at making a very quick real or a quick TikTok I have a certain tendency to maybe overdo things but because I want to create something that's good and that I'm proud of putting out there. You Poppy how does it work for you? I used to be a chef worth ten years in kitchens and it's 70 hours a week it's hard social media is harder purely because it doesn't end mine doesn't stop I'm glad all my chefs want to be like social media I'm interested in you say that It's like Ed said if a brand comes in and wants you to do a job the turnaround is usually like a week they give you no notice whatsoever they want edits they want to control voice-overs you need to change the style of your cooking so that's like one, two, three day job depending on how many edits they want most of the time I get it wrong the first time so I have to do it again because I never read the brief properly and then like you said you've got to get your own content out especially for TikTok like I was saying the consistency so it's everyday one or two recipes that I need to make to get content flowing a backup if I am going away or if I need to do something else you've got to constantly be doing it and then when it comes to Instagram I do a lot of stories as well because and then I do my everyday sort of thing so it's you're still on the 70 hour weeks so basically it doesn't really end and then again like you're saying if you're doing articles and stuff and then it's like sitting and writing and that's a whole nother I'm terrible at sitting at a computer and writing and probably cooking something so then I just strap myself for hours until the last minute before I have to send it and spend time just scrolling the doom scroll so I find it it's a lot of work but I don't have anything else going on if you know what I mean this has become my life and it's how have you completely leaned into it and even if if we go on holiday or have a week off it doesn't stop I've still got all the emails coming through we do all the admin on the side but the business plan of it it was never meant to be I was doing social media because of lockdown and just carried on and so I think it's eased into it just being my constant now and so it's now now I know the end goal I suppose is what I'm trying to achieve this is the end goal is to basically be Nigella and I got called the council estate Nigella and I was like I'm almost there guys so I just I really enjoy this I love teaching people how to cook and I get to teach millions of people over the past few years even if it's a potato recipe it's like a really simple thing to do being able to hopefully make someone's day by making them delicious roast potatoes that they've made for their family so being able to teach more people that through books, through articles through YouTube, through Tiktok that's what I want to be able to do and I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoy it so it has encompassed my life but I but this is what I'm enjoying doing and can I ask kind of like a very sort of rude question feel for you not to answer but do you pay the bills? That was as soon as I in the beginning of lockdown when I had lost my job as soon as a job came in and I was like okay cool that's like a bit of my rent great let's see if we can get another one that's a bit more of my rent and as long as I can pay my half of the rent I'm like yeah I'm in so that has just carried on from there and I've been able to my partner has left his job he works for me now so I have some he edits my videos for me so that cuts down a big chunk of my time but you still have to become a videographer an editor, a producer a writer also the mess I make in my kitchen is what I am so also a kitchen porter a grocery, there's so many elements to it and it's developing dishes and trying to work out a time plan for those and so it's more than just you just pick up your phone and record something there's so many more levels to it and then it's a copywriter for the posts you need to know what hashtags you're going to use what's your copy going to be is this going to be a series there's a lot of things that go into it and the further you want to grow it which I'm trying to do the more things you realise you have you could have a team of people and it's just me and my boyfriend so what should we do next what can we do, what can we actually fit in to find courage? That's the thing, I think we're so used to just reaching out for our phones and seeing all these people goofing around and everything from delicious potatoes to clawing a drain we just assume that there's going to be someone to do it for it, to show us how it's done but actually there's so much work goes into these things that we even ask that we know it very easily forget it don't we I used to think like influence was that it was so easy easy to put stuff on like oh no it's so much more difficult I suppose there's different elements food's difficult one because there's so much more behind it there's development of recipes, there's all of that and if it goes wrong you've got to start again which is never good but it's a difficult one to do but it can be worth it, absolutely OK, ched na mai lawf I think it's almost the same the only difference is I work 7 days a week, there is no Saturday Sunday but I can choose to work around my kids around my family I don't want to miss a day in their life and that's my priority I know what I want and I think this gives me that independence that freedom that I can work around the hours around their school pick up, drop off or whatever they have to be taken around being a taxi for them and I don't want to miss out on any of this so it is a full time job 100% and like I said it is me working alone I wish I could I can't even rent him out oh my god I can't even ask like we don't talk work like we just talk work, it's not something I will ask him for advice but it is now I feel he doesn't know what he's talking about he has no idea of the industry why am I asking him? he's not down with the kids so I've stopped asking him it is a properly full time job but I've always said that I'll do it till I enjoy it which is one of the reasons I didn't join TikTok because even then my kids made me join TikTok I am wasting I'm not learning anything in Instagram at least when you're browsing you might learn something about cooking or gardening depending on what you're following you might pick a trick or something I thought I'm just wasting my life away so I don't want to you can get some not by creating not creating but by watching and it can suck you in for hours and then I would rather read a book or watch a movie what is a book? I saw TV once I think no but this is actually quite interesting because we all sort of touching on traditional sort of media and print and broadcast are these things is this the future is this the past because Ed I know that you've done many tremendous books I think you have one coming I have had one out one out and one coming fantastic things and you know involved in broadcast as well how does that sit I think at the moment it has to be part of a portfolio of things and for people who haven't got a regular column or on TV then social media is their platform and how I get work or promote myself I think and then I think the problem is we just cannot predict what the next 10 20 years are going to be like media and our consumption of it so you want to be like hedging your bits but so I know that there are plenty of management agencies for example who view probably rightly social media whether that's Instagram or TikTok in particular as the core earning capability of the people that they work with because of the partnerships that come in what I find quite interesting is how whether a million, four million followers on a channel converts to book sales it probably doesn't give nearly as much benefit as going on morning television so currently I think we can get really sucked into thinking that social media is the most important thing but in terms of actual people and your longevity as a person in media then the mainstream is still the thing it's still the place for credibility for your average Joe who isn't spending their life scrolling this down I totally agree and I think in that particular viewpoint I find that these days like you mentioned influencer word after such a long time because that word has kind of disappeared and content creators has taken because influencers I think was a very easy job but I think content creation is a complete different story but I think these very young content creators absolutely amazing content but I find that they are obviously picking up stuff from somewhere they haven't got life experiences or they haven't even half the stuff they're sharing you know on creating stuff that becomes viral or watched but can actually deliver on exactly and I think they have all got massive followings overnight and absolutely fine to each their own but how much of that will get translated if they did happen to write a book which would be quite interesting because I for one would not be buying their books because you know what I mean they haven't got yeah I just find that it's just picked up from places and you can see that they actually haven't created any of it which I find extremely frustrating extremely sorry no I get you but actually it's you've sort of touched on longevity and that's a really sort of interesting place for me to think about what is what is success in this mess like what is how do we, is it very is it many followers, is it reach is it you know what is success to you in that I think I don't even go and look at the reach and stuff I just want to create and what I find extremely enjoyable is the DMs and the emails I get from people from around the world who have watched the YouTube or have for me YouTube and my books are the key kind of teaching points and I want to educate, I want to learn as much as I can keep going back and learn more and come back and share it when they email back whether they've said that they've got an Indian partner or they've cooked this for their mother-in-law their parents have died and they've created this or I'm a 70 year old man living somewhere and I've created curry for the first time and things like that is just, I do it for that and I sometimes don't even know what my reach is, what my you know, I do you not pay any attention at all like you must I pay attention to followers I pay attention, oh I don't go beyond because sometimes brands have asked me what is your and I think I have no idea you know but you can get sucked I don't, life's too short I've got other things but they're really I think I've known you for I don't know a few years and Chetna does have around her a very loving group a very very loving group and you can see on your videos always the comments are it's a very sort of cosy positive place that you've created so I believe her she's not bullshitting us I don't think Poppy what is success after you've become Nigella that's the aim for all of us that's kind of like entry level we are going to be Nigella it'll be fine success for me has been basically being able to use yes I'm encompassing this life and I really enjoy it but it's been able to enjoy my time in that as well I never set out that this was never my intention I didn't have social media before this I had like my personal instagram with some people from school I probably unfollowed actually I might have lied but there was like it was never probably them actually there's always that way no such thing Chetna not for them but being able to spend time with friends and family more so than working in kitchen 70 hours a week all that sort of stuff that for me has been a success yes I have intentions of being like Nigella if that doesn't happen it doesn't happen and that's fine I'm very happy with how everything is and it's I never take any of it for granted it could all change in a second like if all social media then gets like taken off I've had a lovely time tiktok is under serious risk now I know that's why I'm the same Pinterest so yeah I already think that there's been too much success already but there's no I don't think there's any way to quantify that I'm happy that makes sense that's how I edws my idea I would be lying if I said I didn't want to have more followers I don't want to say that and I don't want to feel that but I feel like follower growth within social media represents some sort of response to what you're doing and maybe also provides potential as I said I see social media as part of a portfolio of the things that I do social media writing cookbooks doing articles something else occasionally and the other things don't happen so well if social media isn't growing and being engaged and so on a kind of a small on an occasional basis not occasional on when I put content out if it bombs or if it doesn't do as well as you hope then that feels unsuccessful on a very short term basis on a longer term basis I guess I feel like I'm trying to at least tread water as other people grow and I did grow beyond that to help the rest of my career is that your sort of shop front in a sense I want to talk a little go back a little bit to the area of community and the people I know you know what I said about you and I do get a lot of love from the people who consume that content we've said this word so many times we're not going to say content you do get a lot of love and support and a lot of validation even on emotional level but there's also the flip side which is the trolls it's my favourite the comments I love it, I live for it now it's one of my favourite things do you take them on or do you ignore I take them on and I love it so initially I've got to say first year maybe six months of doing the social media and doing TikTok I was getting like chefs hating on me and it got to me and therapy helped it was the first time I ever went to therapy yes because I was so scared to put any content out because it was like I didn't realise it felt so personal when it's just one idiot sitting there in the pants basically yes and I couldn't quite separate it's very personal so after a lot of therapy sessions and a lot of money spent on my mental health not too much but it was then when it clicked to me it's like boring insecure nobody random person does not know one thing about me who just wants to chat and so I chat back I thoroughly enjoy it I don't take any of it personally now I'll give as good as I get and it amuses me that's something fun to do now when I start seeing these things and I do all the standard stuff I'll call them out on their grammar I'll call them out on their spelling I'll just do their head in I just try and annoy them as much as I can and do it from a place I never get personal because they do and that's when they've lost they can say anything to me they can just do whatever they want to do they can say but all I do is just expose them for being just mean for no reason and they get all sheepish and they get all like everyone's coming for me now it's like well you came for me so I don't advocate my followers going for them at all and I feel bad when it gets to the point but if they do it represents a certain level of success on a platform when people start commenting as if you're not involved in that account so someone on a positive side you often get comments saying when someone mentions to their friend oh this guy's doing this and this is good and it's like yeah I'm here hi but equally similarly I think that if you're there's a point at which people stop seeing accounts of human and then think that all better often they can say weird things that you'd never say in the street to your face that's definitely one of them so I see it almost as like well thank you very much because you think I'm doing something good you get a rise but it does get it can get very very personal and very personal just because it's on the phone in 2D and I think if you're a content creator you don't have the sort of buffers that people have on newspapers on TV you don't have that sort of layer of protection you're so exposed exactly no I think I love Poppy's the way she handles it do you experience that? sorry I just stay in my bubble I respond to almost every comment that comes in but it's mostly positive but I've seen your responses and I think other content creators need to learn because I think sometimes they get so personal like even the content creators get personal I'm like come on if you are going to be in this business you have to learn how to deal with it or don't be the face of it or don't read it there has to be something you need to do because it's your choice to be here and I'm not saying the people should be commenting such negative things no I'm saying you need to learn how to cope because that's not going to stop you have no control over that but how you react is your way of dealing it let someone else read the comments and what you do is amazing the way she handles it it's hard not to read the comments though because I would spend hours going through them and then be like and I did take the step back I would read the first few and be like okay I can use that I'll use that for my own content you're really just giving me fuel to post more stuff and then I stop once it gets to a point I stop reading it because I don't need to know all of that especially when it gets to you know when there's like threads I mean have you ever read Tattle? Have you ever been on Tattle? Never go on Tattle Has anyone ever Tattle is ferocious it's basically a website where people just slag people off It is hell I thought it was just like the internet No this is like specific this is like ready for bitching sorry I'm swearing something it's a horrible horrible place I've only had four comments so far so I watch it being like I'm waiting I'm just waiting for someone to read Are those comments coming from social media or TV stuff? Anything really it's a lot of people being like oh yeah she's insufferable now we like to be locked down now she's insufferable I'm like okay cool I'll take that I will take that because yeah I'm gobbie now and a little bit annoying so I understand but some people have pages and pages and they go and I'm like now I have the time I'm reading it but I'm not joining it you know what I mean it's a very for me it's really strange to want to go on line and destroy someone's character I would never do it I'd never think about commenting something nasty on someone's post even if I thought it I would never do it so it's like where are these people finding the time to do this How did you discover that I'm still sorry I'm still in shock I love everything to do with no I know we're all going between midnight and two o'clock tonight where we will all be wow that is crazy I read a lot of reddit so you find all these things from there but I do feel and it's kind of like perverse to say I hear what you say I would never post anything nasty because why I do think that people bring so much wonderful creative energy to their nasty comments do you know what I mean sometimes aren't they sometimes you're like this guy's sharp that's why what was your favourite favourite has got to be the council it was one of my favourite things and then someone said oh I can't remember there's so many I get through them all and then someone recently said middle class why women shows us how to make mash I was like oh the other week I got a cool council I said I'm just going I'm going all through the classes now I'm just like thrashing through the class barrier Ed are you favourite nasty comment I know I get a bit I don't get many nasty comments probably because I'm not aware enough people think that they just want to comment all the time I'll post I actually I was actually thinking I was you mentioned about the comments the good the bad and the ugly and what that brought to mind to me was a bit like pop is responding as a person to people that don't think you're a person my favourite all time Instagram response was when someone asked Nigel Slater for oh my god and he wrote back excuse my French I'm not a travel agent Nigel what has happened at that point when you break down the barrier from being an account of a famous person or someone who's grown on social media and then occasionally they are person of responsibility I can never forget that either because actually the person the follower asked him can you please make a list of all the places to go and see and stay something like that not like just say oh is any like which actually comes the actual annoying comment for us as people working in food is when someone just writes recipe question mark if I haven't given it then maybe there's a reason but also you are saying you're not given the recipe that's why they're asking you the recipe I've posted stuff all the time it says where the recipe is whether it's in a magazine or in a link the number of times people ask for can you please share the recipe if you just read the thing I sometimes get annoyed and say it's in the description question mark question mark or do you know really what I never get around in my head it's like you know when you post someone someone said oh yeah it looks really nice I make something very similar but instead of using aubergine instead of coriander I'm using some garbage from my kitchen floor instead of walnuts I'm just like flicking bogies it's delicious are you like what what what what what's the interaction here like what is the premise this happens so much that you feel like I don't get I don't understand this conversation like I don't understand it the thing is that when they ask you for a recipe pure chicken recipe what's the replacement for chicken things like that cauliflower roast what's the replacement for cauliflower obviously just choose a different recipe that's the everything has gluten seriously you cannot make it without gluten no yours don't have no gluten my questions talk amongst yourselves no I just I like your little that's made me laugh that has is there a replacement for potatoes you might have come to the wrong channel that sweetest and can I just put this instead of this yes but that's going to completely change the recipe so I love that that's the harshest comments that you get is that can I replace this honestly Chetna's world is a very beautiful world isn't it curry scented bubble which we're sometimes allowed that's what I'm going to use that's the next book curry scented bubble to the best possible way okay no one is better equipped to predict the next big thing than the people on this stage I think so otherwise what are you doing here I don't know yes what's coming our way what's the big tsunami do you mean like a trend or platform so trend not a platform trend or platform but I'll take either one what's the next trend and what's the next platform here's a question nicely phrased discuss you can't predict the trends and if anyone says should I be doing on Instagram on TikTok to make my account fly which trend is the best if you're having to ask that question you're not going to be the person that makes that happen but I think that it's quite interesting these spaces because the trends happen someone must start the trend and Instagram must blow it up I don't know how it happens but then you get a month or two of people essentially just repeating and copying which is that's not creation you're doing the same thing so I don't know I'm not very interested in trends but on platforms I think that I think they're all trying to become a media channel and then you have lots of verticals is that how you say it in broadcasting so I think today Meta announced that they're doing a text based version of Instagram and they're about to start essentially Elon Musk is ruining Twitter so there's lots of people that people that don't work in visuals that probably want to have a a text based social media thing to continue so Meta have announced that they're going to do that and I think that in the same way that they're a Donald Trump one but I don't think he's going to grow to take over the world thankfully but I think that you talked about community talked about having a portfolio of things and being a media platform is that I think really what we're going to look at is whether it's Meta allowing you to do more than just a video content to sell wares directly to do all this stuff which it kind of does the sub-stack has sort of started as a newsletter channel but they're basically trying to get every single thing into that so that they've got a comments Twitter style thing they'll have Instagram style stuff all these content creators essentially becoming their own version of the BBC website by different channels of things to have and that's the growth I think that makes it Yeah absolutely We didn't talk about Twitter at all because that's kind of it just assumed that someone would put it in the corner and that's I think put it in the naughty step to think about what it's done you know what you did Twitter but sub-stack will tell you you know you've got to leave Instagram because whatever's happening to Twitter will happen to that and then TikTok you could sorry a mass of 4 million followers and then next week it's been told that we're out in this so you've got to hold your own community and create have some sort of ownership of what you're doing and some social media platforms will tell you that's what they're offering you I think the thing is that I think what I see from my end is every platform is trying to be the other platform so TikTok is trying to be YouTube YouTube is trying to be TikTok with shots Instagram is doing longer reels now so every platform wants to copy what the other platform is doing and I think it's just like a big jumble of everybody there's no clarity now that Instagram is just this TikTok is just this it's just a big it's quite messy it's just messy like what's wrong with YouTube to start shots because it wants to be TikTok just stick with what's wrong with that this is what we do, we just want to grow Poppy, where's your nose? I think that it's been a trend for a while I suppose, I don't know if it's really a trend but more people are looking at expert influencers or expert content creators so people who have more of an expertise in that one piece of content that they're making out if it's a chef who's all the TV chefs are now on TikTok and Instagram and using that as another platform rather than just doing the old media like books and stuff so expert influencers are really in their own now you can go on to TikTok and search even like office managers and you'll have someone with millions of followers who's an office manager and that's their expert field and people love it, they love seeing insight into people's jobs and lives and being an expert in it like gardeners all this sort of stuff so that's definitely on trend probably done now but that was what was more recently and I think that we went straight into short form media with TikTok so 60 seconds max and now you're seeing a change into longer form media so YouTube's kind of really come back into its own it had a bit of a blip I think anyway for the few years and now it's huge again it's also like the one social media that's not totally evil yes exactly it's always just stayed quite nice there it's like a nice little place to be which I'm going to try and I think there is a movement of people on new media being social media is not going to go away and it's always going to get used so so like myself trying to do TV stuff so doing like Young Masterchef and everything there's a big focus on how I can use my platforms for that so there's going to be basically I'm getting used but I love it because I'm also getting something in return so it's a two way so that's going to be more of a thing I believe, I think more people who are going to be because we're always going to have to have new people on TV in books and everything like that they're going to be more inclined to have a big social media presence I think I see this as already a thing but like it's it's getting used by the people who are also on I think the trend is that corporations are using social media better by using individuals rather than saying hi we're masterchef this is that exactly there's outreach to individuals rather than using their own platform to promote their own stuff that's super interesting another thing that's been on my mind a lot recently I dream to be replaced by a chatbot this is my ambition in life you want to be Nigella I want to be replaced by AI and this is coming in a big way to the social media and starting to sort of reach our shores of you can write a recipe you can actually just put in a chicken recipe and it will write a recipe for you that's terrifying in my mind absolutely terrifying don't you find it so joyous I'll just stay in bed write me a recipe in Australia just throw a thing on it no but do you see how do you see it changing the landscape I mean I think it's going to be there's going to be so much sort of content flooding all the channels will they even be relevant will we be relevant how do you envisage that it's a biggie, I'm sorry to be dropping this on you this might be the beginning of the end I think it's just too much I can't take it you go in see you guys how do you do you see the landscape changing there will be a change yes because anyone will be able to make anything on any platform which is fine, go for it I think the only thing that's going to set people apart is human human interaction personality, authenticity and that might be the only way that I mean this could all they could all stop doing it soon I don't know, I really don't know but it does seem like a weird idea people sometimes say you generate success or quality on social media or how you gain traction is people come for the initial content and they stay for the personality because after seeing five things that you've made really great whether it's amazing whether the film's amazing, the film's amazing after a while it becomes boring unless you've got something which is why we all put our faces in there now all these sort of things that's why it's why your restaurant account is much better than someone else's because it's still very personal so surely with AI we've paid him a lot of money paid him better but with AI hopefully for at least the short to medium term it's just not a human it's not an emotional response to that and I think the reason why brand accounts fail is because there's no emotion there's no human connection so hopefully for a little bit longer and that's why it's worth putting your face on things this is kind of like what it really is about it's about people connecting it's about the big communion this is how we come together at a sort of virtual table and meet each other I'm very curious to see how that landscape is going to be even probably this time next year do we still have time? yes we have time listen top tips success in social media now we've covered everything we know what success is we know it's the business model top tips try to start by saying choose your medium I think don't go on everything is my advice just start with one thing try things and see what you like and then just go for it don't think I'm going to do YouTube and then do TikTok though I'm on Instagram and on YouTube Chetna, is this a different way of saying just be yourself? no no no don't be an octopus I don't know what I was trying to say but basically don't branch out just be focused on one thing there's what you're saying just be yourself no it's not being yourself it's got nothing to do with yourself you could talk about shoes I hear what you're saying poppy I'm going to go opposite completely no it's really good I think that you need to be realistic in what it is that you're going to be doing so if you're choosing I chose a certain thing and I ran with it I saw that there was going to be popularity in it it was the first video that got million views so that was like that's what people want to see I'm going to do that first that's potatoes I'm going to do 25 days find a niche a niche is going to bring you a community a community is your USP yeah USP and then you can branch out after that I think so it's stick to one yes that's what I'm saying once you've grown at least 11 then you can spread and also this sounds terrible but it's one bit of advice that I give to myself is that not everyone's going to like it like it's it may not work how you expect it to work you may not you know I never had an ambition of getting this far so now I've got an ambition of Nigella which is very far that might never happen so don't get downbeat I'm forcing it I'm manifesting but it might never happen so you can't get if that one niche doesn't work try something else no one's going to care in a few days whether you do something different and it's just be consistent with that then when you get to a point I say lots of fingers in lots of pies I would go I'm trying to do everything purely because there's so many people that you can reach and especially if you're going for a business plan of taking over the universe that's how you can do it I think you've got to do as much as you can if that's something you're set on and you have the time and the patience to do it so you lure them in with the potatoes lure them in and now I've got them and now I can do whatever you want Ed yours I wrote five things down be good at what you do that might mean that you make beautiful content whether it's an image or a video but also it might be that you are good at what you do whether that's talking to camera or cooking food maybe easier is it than done but you need to have a USP and a focus I've spent ten years not having a USP and a focus apart from occasionally I did a book about size I'm doing a lot of stuff about eggs and those are the times that people you do potatoes there's a reason why things happen because you've become known for something yeah but then isn't that potatoes are going to run out potatoes are never going to run out no I mean you not run out but you'd want to do something else yeah that's why you branch then you can see someone else to become something people need to know is the potato but then after that you need to have a personality be yourself but also put yourself don't be yourself people people don't stay unless they like you and they're not going to hang around and then to that point you have to build a community like Chetna why is delicious the Ella so successful because she built a massive community of people that love Ella's stuff and so success being success on social media where everything gets engagement but then that transferred to her for massive book sales that's because Pinch of Nom biggest selling cookbook for years because they've got a Facebook community of people so if that's what success is then you need to engage with them you need to sometimes be nice on the comments as well and then the last thing is you've got to play the game which is what I reckon I do lots of the other things and they don't play the Instagram game particularly well the game for Instagram at the moment is doing things as a series because they want to make you it's a way of them constantly generating new content and becoming known as the butter guy but that's helpful you you need to create a network online of people that support you and you're sharing their content and they're sharing your content because you can shout in a room as loud as possible but if people aren't opening the doors and telling everyone about it it's not going to work so I think things like mob do incredibly well because the people within it grow it together it's an organic thing in which people support each other so it's helpful you just can't grow without other people sharing you and then trends which is like I find it very difficult to jump on board music trends or I think at the moment there's quite a lot of things when I'm doing the scrolling I see lots of very short easy content Q&As where it's impossible to not watch someone say watch your favourite restaurant in London watch your favourite burger with this, that and the other and you get to the end of one minute and that's a complete waste of my life but I've watched one minute of it and then accidentally the algorithm feeds you but I've got to I don't want to do it no but the trend stuff is depends on what you achieve at the end of it because if you can go on trends you can become the most popular video again how many of them will come back to you for a recipe and I think you really don't want to burn yourself out which is really important the mental health is it is key you need to know when to draw the line which is the biggest problem on social media right now you can get carried away what trends are you guys talking about because I've never seen a trend where I've gone oh that's hard hard doesn't mean hard because if it's for instance like put in a certain there was one trend that was like oh people say I need to have my video seven seconds so this is and then it stops I just re-purp I only ever re-purp a stuff for trends do you know what I mean yeah but that's why you got 4 million followers because you're not you're much better at feeding the beast right yeah okay so that's what I just it's not hard it doesn't have to be difficult it can be done in your own way and it can be done as simply as you want it to be I think when it comes to I mean when that Fetterpasta trend happened I just threw better in with some potatoes you know I made it completely to how what my aesthetic is I suppose I'm with you I think that is how you you do really well I just don't want to scare anyone from not doing them because they can be a very quick and easy way to gain traction if you use them literally you spin it to everything that you're doing it's basically manipulating social media which is playing the game is literally playing the game I know that because I follow that creator's Instagram account they'll say these are the music things but I want to put some I don't like that music and I like my cake or the curry on that music so I don't care if it's I think at the end of it you have to enjoy it why are you doing it yourself it's right it's right for yourselves whatever I don't care you be yourself you be yourself questions you guys you're going to be yourself we've covered everything but if you have a random question then let's do it don't you feel like we sorted everything really not okay let's bring it bring the pain bring the joy there's a roving mind maybe I should like this is the bit that you ask questions like we've moved to that so lucky for you I actually wrote down my question because I'll think of something and forget it immediately as I get the mic this was touched on a little bit but how much do we think that traditional food media influenced social media so like I grew up with Food Network like Guy Fieri and like being Moroccan and seeing honestly terrible recipes that were just like raisins thrown into something being called Moroccan versus now I can see an actual Moroccan influencer doing food that's like nostalgic to me and reminds me of my mom and my grandma so how do you think that plays into the landscape now super interesting I think it's possibly more in the reverse that I think that the amount of good stuff that we get on social media should surely be making traditional media better it isn't always but whether it's the style in which it's being filmed or the content and maybe the use of people authentic to a cuisine to present it rather than being translated to the voice of the white man is probably helped by the success of social media but also I think what has helped I see it, I think social media is not everyone in London only anymore it's the whole world so you could be like the people I follow I'm following Indian chefs I'm following people in America or all over the world and that's where you get authentic stuff whereas Food Network for example would just be like white guy taking to India and talking about food so you're never going to get the real deal honestly speaking whereas now all those barriers have gone actually people like there's an account which definitely if you're already not following village cooking it's called on Instagram and this guy goes into Indian villages and actually grandmas are cooking you know, 1900 year old grandmas are cooking and it cannot be it's not made up, you know it's the real deal so I think that is why because it's not restricted to one place anymore that's a good one I didn't nobody ask me about my tip for a successful social media my tip is this get a grandma grandmas and social media are like with a cat yeah, cats, grandmas slather your grandma with food questions, questions I don't know how to choose you choose one we're going to get to everyone now we're going to talk at the same time sorry you go ahead and I'll go after you thanks do you ever feel like your status as a chef is affected by or how other chefs see you is affected by how you present yourself on social media do you feel like you're looked down on by the chef community by playing the game of social media yes actually this question is just for her because I'm not a chef no I think there's been definitely a bad rep for tiktok chefs or social media chefs and I have even been part of that when I was at work people would scroll through someone's instagram maybe someone who had left the job and be like oh my god how embarrassing that he's putting this up and we'd be like yeah but that is what changes and now it's been so huge for so many chefs and so many people that a lot of chefs are now having to retract all of the previous statements and be like actually this is this is the way forward this is how to first of all promote your restaurant if you have a restaurant how to promote your work and a portfolio even if you want to get a job in a different place you can literally show people yeah this is what I do, this is my work I love this so it can be used in so many more positive ways but initially I still think a lot of people who I've worked with or who know me in the chef community probably are like oh god that's embarrassing like but it's there's always jealous and spiteful people on it the other thing as well is that I think I sort of done some chefing done a lot of writing and sit in the middle and sometimes I know chefs that I think it's all valid and other people don't think it is and I think it always comes down to it's a bit like people saying I went to Jamie Oliver's restaurant he wasn't there and it was rubbish Jamie is an incredible presenter and you can't tell everyone what to think but probably is A a good chef and B incredible on social media and people if they can't click then it's a different thing then you can't educate everyone but I think people are starting to see a change I also think you know everyone has an account everyone's on some sort of social it's kind of like your business card it is now I don't think it's like yeah maybe you fool around and you look silly but probably you are silly but it's kind of like this is the shop front become normalised it is our portfolio but I saw something on TikTok this morning on the train I know I know I had to pass my time on the train and actually that said some knowledgeable guy was saying if somebody doesn't like you it's their problem it's not your problem somebody thinks bad of you it is not your problem so I think if you are going on social media go with that thought unless you have followed them previously then it's your problem and you have the microphone already my dear I know so I'm good to ask a question I have a question for Chetna and it was when you were saying earlier about young people would sort of exploded followers picking things up from like who knows where but you didn't think that there was really had any staying power, any credibility and I don't want you to slag anybody off or name names but just could you give some examples of what you mean by that I do want you to slag people off let's get some traction she's not a slagger often no I'm not that much that's very lovely but you can slag somebody off but will Chetna be nice you can slag somebody off will Chetna be nice Chetna will you be nice no I think what is I'm not saying that they are not here to stay I think they might be here to stay my problem is that people like those should take the responsibility of telling where they got the inspiration from whenever I cook from somebody's book I will not post it without saying it is from somebody's book even if it's an Indian book I will name the chef's name on YouTube I'll show the picture of the book and put a link in the description like you have some responsibilities all these youngsters are doing all this food and you might say I'm jealous that their numbers are going I don't care I just want them to tell us where they're getting their information from clearly their mom's not teaching them because you know they are not from Indian background if they're doing Indian food or they're not Italian if they're doing Italian food so clearly their family is not giving them recipes and clearly they're getting it from social media so do they not have the responsibility of telling where they're getting it from just say it's inspired by so and so but you know I just find that is extremely wrong I know exactly what you mean it's when it's you always want to be able to people want to put recipes out there whether they're their own or not or whatever that's a lovely thing to do and it's showing people they can cook and it's they normally have very great skills in cooking but it is about being able to identify where it's come from because you see a lot of recipes on social media and you go oh where is that, they haven't made that up but it hasn't come out of thin air so especially if there's no kind of like I know it sounds horrible like restaurant background or any you know where has it come from exactly so it's just been able to identify you know I know what you mean yeah I would say this is inspired by a recipe I had on holiday or you know it could be anything but it's people give themselves the credibility when it doesn't necessarily it isn't necessarily theirs yeah but also I think the problem is the audience because nobody's questioning any of it you know it's such a such a fake word which is it is sorry no I mean yeah I kind of like you're coming me here because I I have a little confession to Poppy that I did use your one of your recipe without credits oh my god I love that no I take it now that you're saying it I'm like I did like an online class and I did your hassle back potatoes with bacon and honey but that's the thing that's like I feel like it's out there it's on the internet I can use it I don't need to give credit no actually I would normally give credit but I actually stole someone else that I gave and I didn't want to come out like I have these I think it's very different it's very different when it's a potato with bacon and honey that could literally be anybody it's when it's a I think more of an authentic or a specific cultural recipe as well it makes it even more like where's that I did around the world in 80 potatoes I tried to do around the world in potatoes it was very hard and I docked about two days in but it was always you know because I wanted to explore different cultures and food, different flavours and I didn't want to just start putting recipes from Lebanon out there because I've never been I don't know anyone but I wanted to be like oh I've researched, I've had a look I'm trying their potato recipe which is more of what we mean but I mean take them my philosophy is I think if it's there it's yours like if you see it use it it sort of comes to the same that's likewise to my shit like if you see it it's yours we put these things out there you know this is yeah but I think the point is another pet hate I have is someone introducing their real as hi guys this is my recipe for spaghetti bolognese it's like come on there's a lazy way of presenting it it is lazy the way around it is go this is inspired by that's what I'm saying it can be from a country my holiday that I went on that I tried it or my friend or a book and that's this is inspired by me going online finding recipes even that's better this is inspired by a copy and paste job that I've just done we've all been you know what the funny bit was on Twitter only today this morning I saw something oh you cover it on TikTok this morning I know I know just do one thing no as a customer I was on Twitter not as a anyway you get it so I was in posting and I read somebody thanking Nigella for this recipe of dipping asparagus in boiled egg I literally I didn't know it was Nigella's recipe I've been doing it nobody told me it was Nigella's recipe come on it's all Nigella's recipe everything is Nigella's basically all the recipes are Nigella and whatever you eat it's a good practice to thank Nigella just in case cover your bases thank you Nigella what's the worst that can happen you have nailed it thank Nigella she deserved it in like 50 years there'll be like thank Poppy more questions my loves yes a lovely question here I don't know the guys do whatever they want I have zero control yes my dear hi thank you all so much I'm really glad that in these questions we've kind of got more to the crux of the content which is food and something that makes food content so compelling is the fact that we need it to live and you guys are making that more exciting and inspiring but I also wanted to ask a little bit about the work life balance between your job being to create content out of like the meals that you eat every day and like whether you sometimes have issues with separating life from work and putting aside your camera while you eat or cook and yeah what's the work life balance like I mean first health warning I just need to say you know you can't eat the food that you didn't before you took a picture it's very bad so please don't do it and don't try you don't need to post it but you have to take a picture otherwise it's really damaging but it's a very good question where do you draw the line sometimes you're just like me I'm gonna have chips now and it's not content but it's good we're not documenting every day's food kind of I might put it on stories but it's not like I'm filming every I write cookbooks too so I can't film the cookbook recipe so like I said yesterday I filmed the cake I made and tomorrow I'm going to be testing some recipes for like a magazine so it doesn't have to be kind of good so you have to know what your priorities are where, what you want from that work and if you can just plan a little bit in advance I don't plan that much but I know that tomorrow I'm doing that and day after I am going to cook something with my mum I know that and that's what we're going to eat but I think your end goal is quite important what do you want to achieve do you want to focus on putting out recipe videos then you kind of can get a bit carried away so you have to isn't it I found that in a way that the videoing the moving imageification of social media has made my habit of taking a picture of every single thing I eat has reduced that because it takes a lot longer for me to make film and so my son and my wife are not going to be waiting for it so it's very much that's a job in the same way as half of my recipe testing outside social media is it's just not for our family meal so there's a separation now almost so it's a bit healthier than I think what you're saying is can't you enjoy the food rather than just photograph it and tell everyone about it and I think that I feel like that moment is almost moved on and whilst also everyone takes pictures of their food all the time now which is weird but you also you know we eat with our eyes as well so it's almost like appreciation what we're all going to do with these thousands of photos that are on our phones delete them after you shared oh yeah god yes otherwise I've got a power role in my every single picture I use the photos as a record of what I've cooked for inspiration for something else or reminder of what I did so do you not like find trying to go through the pictures of your phone too much for your mark like if I haven't deleted my last videos clips I'll go mad like I think you were more organised than I am yeah that's definitely come which we don't know how cos you're always on social media where'd you find the time on the train just deleting pictures I have personally tried to separate it more cos I was very much in a cycle of record everything's an opportunity for content so it was very much like dinner would take five hours to get assorted because I'd be moving cameras and lights and all that sort of stuff whereas because I was doing it all at home and it became very like constricted and then the kitchen would be a mess and I'd be like ah this is hell being here so I've been really lucky to be able to like I'm building a little kitchen studio for myself so then I can actually separate it and I'll go to work three times a week and that'll be my content making days and it's just going to that's how I'm breaking it up for myself and then when I'm when I know I'm not going to be able to do content at home and actually make recipe videos if we're travelling, if I'm having to travel for work or do something that's when I have started doing like a little series of finding the world's best potato I'm sticking to my niche but I'm trying to just use that time as content so you know I will actively go and wherever I am I was in like Rotterdam, go to the food market, try and find the best chips but you know that's how I then it doesn't take up so much of my life but it means that I'm still staying relevant in some way so It's helpful as well that like literally everything I think about is food so it doesn't always feel like there needs to be a separation and you enjoy doing it so but always take pictures guys I am currently armed with the mic so I might go if that's okay Ed has really helped giving me a nice segue into my question which was about you mentioned the like videification of seemingly all social media Instagram was primarily a photo app and now it's very much a video app and we're all armed with a smartphone so we're all a food photographer in some sense where do you guys see the place for more traditional food photography in the sense that it's like a styled image the kind of things that we would see in magazines and cookbooks that I guess are more professionally put together than what we might just be able to do by snapping a picture on our phone where is the place for that as social media continues to evolve Well hopefully cookbooks I mean it does, it's interesting whenever I put a really good photo up it doesn't do very well at all because it's the top shot of a plate with no kind of real artistic creativity on it but in a way that everyone can always predict the death of something can't they but I think cookbooks people enjoy because they're physical objects and hopefully that will continue I've seen quite a few things around Christmas in the Easter time of AI generated images someone did a he asked chat GBT to do me a a food show to essentially a magazine style food shoot of an Easter cake setup and it was not dissimilar the result within a couple of minutes was not dissimilar to something you might see in a food magazine and that's kind of interesting to me but I think it would also mean that you're going to get an increase of traditionalists that want to see real quality and real food taken in a good site where you then consume that beyond the book I don't know I think websites websites will be where you can get that if you look at people like Jane Dunn and James Patisserie she does the when she makes her cakes and everything she does proper food styling for her website on her social media platform so I think that's a really good way of utilising that professional photography which I would love to do but again if I ever put like a nice picture out it's never welcomed as much on my social media Do you think that's a matter of context that people don't expect it? Yeah context and also People are used to stopping at certain things and if it seems too professional sometimes people move on I think that's definitely it it's also such a speedy thing isn't it that the reason why a website might work or a book is that and hopefully people will stick with it is it takes more time to consume something of quality than we give it on social media with all the clutter Yeah Super interesting Although actually quickly you can get there are some there are some insta pages that are like more dedicated to that professional food photography which then can be people's like oh yeah I'll actually look through that whole page rather than just rolling Yeah Hi I'm here Ah ok Sorry So there's been a bit of writing at the moment about how recipes even though they're prescriptive by nature are actually this kind of like a ephemeral thing you can't really grasp because every cook will interpret that recipe differently even if they follow it to the letter depending on the temperature of their kitchen depending on the time of year whatever depending on what they have in the fridge or the supermarket that they went to How do you think sharing recipes online has changed what a recipe is That is 10 questions Ok The recipe is a conduit The recipe is not the thing itself The recipe is how I pass this idea to you and you can recreate this idea at home Like you said it's a very sort of The recipe begins where the cooking ends where the cooking is done then the recipe begins and then it moves on and it begins maybe you're cooking In that sense from telling it or speaking it writing it to printing it to texting it that message I don't think changed at all What I think that's changed dramatically is the weight we put on it on a recipe suddenly it's the most important thing the interaction is I think the most important thing So it's kind of like a little bit of a card trick it's a distraction Do you know what I mean I guess if it's written then it's open to interpretation and variances maybe when you get video content that's step by step and literal people will take even more of a literal approach to what it is and they'll still come back and say I made your lamb meatballs but I used aubergine because it wasn't very good But it doesn't it doesn't change the act You know we all of you guys we're talking here about teaching you know that's the thing you're teaching all your people this is the act you cook and you pass it on and this is not the essence is not different it's just kind of like it's a technical issue What I think though is actually through social media recipes I've got simplified more and simplified but also more in detail it's a weird one to explain how I'm trying to describe this like a human Okay so I go through every recipe that I do and try and make it the simplest version of that but with the most detail so people can't can't change too many things or interpret it wrong Idiot proof I'm not going to say that What about things to say? I suppose so it's that people of any stage in cookery can try and absorb that information and use it and change it as it goes on so I think social media is definitely it's in a switch because if you look at like Mrs Beaton's books but from back back in the day it doesn't even give you a weight it doesn't give you a time you're just expected to know what these things are it's easier for people to make a recipe because they're free to interpret that however they want and also there's no pictures and no videos you don't know how it's going to turn out so you assume it's right but now we have all of the information and you can see step by step on a video so maybe it feels like if something does go a bit wrong then it's even more dramatic than I don't know, I simplify it and also try and put as much detail in as possible it's a weird kind of mix for me Okay I think what you're asking is how the social media has changed is that what you because I feel that social media has kind of diluted the strength of the quality at the same time it's opened doors like I said earlier to helping us reach the people who we couldn't have ever seen what they're cooking or how they're cooking in different parts of the world but at the same time what is available is you have to really sift through crap to get to the good parts but it's true I mean that's the thing there's maybe one recipe is more popular the other one has a bigger reach but it's essentially the same it's what you're looking for you will find it's pretty rich all there and the act of whether you're giving a super elaborate recipe for a souffle with some rare ingredient having baked feta with pasta the act is the same it's just the level of detail quantity sorry are we done? that's it, social media is fixed new dawn is rising on us tomorrow no no no I'm glad that you did that why didn't you do it two hours ago what really was that making of someone who doesn't love social media I actually now feel a bit kind of revved up to get my head around it and enjoy it so much but that was really inspiring and really fun I was so grateful thank you so much Ed, Poppy, Chetna but especially Ismar for such brilliant navigation through all of that for us, thank you so much these guys are going to be outside and there are books to buy there are signature to be made and they might even carry on the conversation a little bit as well so please do take advantage of that it's all online we're here through until middle of June so please do come back to the British Library for your season but for now, thank you all so very very much thank you