 Ah, thanks so much for joining us on Think Tech Hawaii. And today we're doing a really deep dive who we've narrowed it down to just one premier panelist, Jeff Courtney, who's not only probably the leading First Amendment attorney in Hawaii and a senior highly respected partner at the Cade Shuddy firm here and former president of the Bar Association and all kinds of stuff, but also one of the lead people at Manoa Valley Theater, which is one of the most culturally creative and valuable contributors to this community's theater scene and has been for decades and decades. So please do support it, think of it. You read it exactly as I wrote it. Thank you. Damn right, man. I can read. That's why I got my bachelor's and master's in English. I see that. So, brother Jeff, what the blank are we looking at for 2024? Nothing good. I mean, if you're talking about politics. Anything. Pick a topic. Well, I mean, what can you pick? I mean, what is there to be optimistic about? I mean, some people might argue the economy is getting better. Other people would say it's not or it's only getting better for certain groups, but the country, in my view, is as divided as it's maybe ever been since the Civil War. The political landscape looks like the Sahara Desert, unless you're a far-right Trumper. You know, the likelihood, maybe 90%, that absent some miracle, he'll be the nominee. And the more they go after him, the more he garners more crazy votes. Biden, you know, is a nice guy, but is looking older and older every single day. And I think that's just going to get worse and worse as he goes out on the campaign trail, regardless of his political accomplishments. Want me to keep going? The House is terribly divided and can't do anything. The Senate is just a slightly less of a mess. The Supreme Court is facing some incredibly difficult issues. The Supreme Court ethics are at issue. Well, what else? We have tried to rebuild La Jaina. Everything else looks good, though. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how is the play? That's right, that's right, that's right, that's right. I mean, you know, you want to be optimistic. It's the New Year, you know, New Year's Eve. Everybody is thankful and grateful and making resolutions and looking ahead, but three days later, you realize it's all a mirage. I mean, I think get your passport ready, because I think there's a lot of people that may be leaving this country. I'm not kidding. In December and January, if what looks like it could happen, happens. No disagreement with that at all. And any bright spots out there? Are there any areas where you see positive trends? I don't know. I mean, AI is a potential, you know, positive if it's handled the right way. But, you know, I haven't even touched. I mean, teenage suicide is the highest it's ever been. The number of people that don't want to work is the highest it's ever been. Restaurants and hotels are struggling to find employees. I don't know. You tell me, Chuck. I mean, what do you see as a potential reason to be optimistic, a conviction of Trump? I don't know. That could happen, but I don't think so. Good question. Good question. It's not like Nikki Haley's a lot better, by the way. She has made that clear in recent weeks. Since she's not. Not only that, she's come out as bad as she is on slavery in the Civil War. She's also come out saying she would pardon Trump in a New York minute. Well, anybody, anybody on the Republican side is going to pardon. I mean, you know, the latest poll I saw a couple of nights ago on CNN was that the number of people who believed there was an insurrection has gone from like 28%. No, the number of people who don't think there's an interaction is increasing every single day, every single day among Republicans. And his support is growing every single day with every indictment against five points. Slight exaggeration, but not much. I think he probably sits back there and goes, please, come on. It died me again. Right. Oh, no. So how is that working? I mean, this guy is not exactly Robin Hood going out to steal from the rich and give to the poor here. You know, we've had demagogues before, and people want to know how they survived. You know, from McCarthy, we can go back to Father Kauffman. We can, you know, go back historically. I mean, it's not like the country hasn't had demagogues before, but the differences, they were only being followed by the people that drank the Kool-Aid. And unfortunately, that's not the way things are right now. And, you know, it's crazy. People with guns are threatening people that Secretary of State at Maine is now under armed guard. I mean, the country isn't not in good shape. Sorry, Chuck. We're pretty lucky we're living out here. I mean, it's not perfect out here either, but God forbid, we get like a lot of the rest of the country. I mean, you know, I don't get it, but I never have. Wow. Is there anybody out there on the scene? If somebody were to say, is there anybody that you see that exhibits the kind of leadership, qualities, character, courage, charisma that could make a difference? Yeah, I mean, I think there are a few women governors. For example, that would be really, really good presidents. I think there are probably some senators who are not crazed on either side that could try to bring the country together. But, you know, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I don't think it's possible. I don't think it's possible. I don't care who the leader is. I think you're going to have 40% of the country that believes that Donald Trump is the Messiah, and you're going to have 40% of the country that hates him. So that leaves 20% to run the country. First of all, it's not going to happen. And secondly, I don't think it's possible. I mean, well, what else can I say about it? But yeah, there are some people that I think would be good leaders. I think the Democrats, I like Joe Biden. I think he's probably a pretty decent guy. I think he's done a lot of good things, but they're going to lose potentially if he's their candidate and they don't seem to care. You know, I mean, nobody's formulated a legitimate, not exactly a challenge. I don't think that makes a lot of sense, but a sit down that says, hey, Joe, you're going to be like 105 years old and you're showing it. I mean, come on. So, you know, he can say all he wants and his surrogates can say all they want about all the good things. And you and I know from our views, there's a lot of good things, not a lot of bad things. And if he could control the Congress, they'd be even more good things. But, you know, every time he shows up on television, you cringe. I mean, you really do. Well said. Well said. So how about here in Hawaii? What are we looking at? You tell me. No, I mean, what are we looking at? We're looking at, you know, a state that has got to rebuild. We're looking at a state that can't cut the grips with tourism, no matter how many people want to make public pronouncements about how many are too many and what kind of tourism should we have. The whole tel industry dominates this state, no matter what anybody wants to say, they run everything, including our tax system. We can't reach agreement on how to build the stadium, even though by December, maybe we'll have an agreement, which means we'll have one maybe while you and I are still alive. That'll wait to be seen. We have a rail that, you know, has disrupted a lot of the town and it's going to get worse. This year is going to be brutal along the Dillingham corridor. And as it approaches the federal courthouse, we have a rail that, yeah, you haven't seen it posted the numbers yet, have you? It's been a year. When's the last time they posted how many people are riding? Maybe there's a reason, you know, we have all the Lahaina problems and the homeless problems. So, you know, we have some good people. You know, I think the governor and the mayors, right, some of them better than others, but I don't know, you tell me. You see all the vacant spaces all over town, downtown, Chinatown. Every time something good comes in, something good goes out. So, you know, look, it sounds like why am I here? But, you know, the weather ain't changing, even though there's climate change, it's still beautiful, 300 plus days a year. The ocean, even if it's a little dirtier and the coral might not be as healthy, it's still beautiful. The people are, for the most part, really nice. So, it's as good as, you know, it's as good as it's gonna get, at least in the short term, in my humble opinion. So, are we a sustainable on-place? That's a good question. And I rarely come up with those, but once in a while. You know, I mean, it depends who you talk to, right? I mean, you know, you talk to some environmentalists who say no, you talk to others who say yes with the appropriate warnings and the appropriate attempts to, you know, take care of things like the ocean warming and, you know, overpopulation in certain areas, et cetera. I don't, you know, I don't know. I mean, I still say, and I travel as much as you do, maybe a little more. It's still a great place to live. I know that sounds funny after everything I've said, but it is, it is. I mean, you know, people aren't, most people aren't walking around with guns in their pockets. We don't have, you know, murder, murder is still front-page news for a week. A murder, not like Chicago, where you could have 11 on a weekend. You know, I mean, so, people are coming, the Japanese are just starting to come back, but I am one who believes we're terribly over-touristed. But as I say, you want to find one industry that controls the state? I mentioned it a little earlier, in every possible way, fighting for like a 1% excise tax that would fund a new stadium, that would fund education because they only want to charge $600 a night, plus a $50 charge for giving you a Wi-Fi, but God forbid they add $10 to the room because people will just go to Mexico. But don't get me started on that. Where I'm heading in a couple of weeks, right? Well, there's nothing wrong. I know you go for a month and I understand it's a beautiful city. But I mean, you know, it's crazy. The arts, they don't, you know, it can fund the arts. It can fund what makes a city, a state worth living in. And the Hawaiian, you know, fortunately more things are now being given back to the Hawaiians. Hopefully we can keep the peace. The telescope issue was quiet all last year. I don't think it's going to be quiet this year. I think, you know, they could pull out in a second if something doesn't happen one way or the other. So, you know, race relations are, at least on the surface, better than they are in many, many, many, many other places. I'm sure some people will disagree whether they're African-Americans or Blacks or Filipinos. But hey, you know, the lucky you live for Hawaii, I think is still a very valid statement. A little bit of hyperbole, but still very valid. Yeah, and I think that's a really good perception, Jeff, because if anything, I think it's fair to say the people in this state, viewed collectively, we're a work in progress, but there seems to be more forward movement on the human relations, the collective good then backward as compared or contrasted to places you mentioned, especially big cities, Chicago, New York, L.A., wherever, pain, or states in general, Florida, Texas, places like that, we'd never trade for that as a living environment or a human environment. So maybe it is, what makes us different here that makes life better? Well, we're multicultural and we've always been multicultural. So the states that are not multicultural or are being forced to become multicultural, we're not experienced all that angst. I mean, 25 years ago, there probably weren't too many Asians living in South Dakota, I mean, or Vietnamese, you know what I mean? I mean, so we don't know much about each other, we don't have the African-American divide that's in many, many places. We're good or for bad, you know, depending on how you look at it. And I think the multiculturalism can be overstated. There's certainly racism here. No one can deny that, but I think it's a very small minority all over the place. I'm not picking on one race over another. But when you have the kind of mix, and a mix that's not, you know, 99% one race or 1% another, when you have six or seven races, all that have significant minority populations, I think it forces people to get along. And for the most part, we do. I mean, you know, I think no question the prisons are overpopulated with certain cultures, particularly Hawaiians, and there's a lot of reasons and issues and concerns about that. But, you know, I sound like Debbie Downer, but I mean, as I say, I wouldn't go anywhere else. Well, I might go, I was in Australia weeks ago, I might go to Australia or New Zealand. Although New Zealand's turning to the right, like, Trump is running the country. I mean, they're getting ready to outlaw the minority language and void the contracts. What's happened in New Zealand is, what's happening in New Zealand is unbelievable, because you remember three months ago, it was the jewel of the world with the woman prime minister who stepped down to raise her family. They've got a right-wing government now that is unbelievable. It could rival Trump. Not Australia, but New Zealand. Right, right. Yeah. Well, that's a shame. Yeah, tell me about it, or tell them about it. And they're not the only ones. I mean, that's happening across many areas of Europe, particularly Eastern Europe. Absolutely. But it's a happy new year. It's a happy, happy new year. We're four days into it. And I'm looking forward to the Iowa caucuses, by the way. I mean, I just think we'll be curious to see if anybody can come within 20 points of Trump. And that'll be fascinating to me. If it just runs rampant through it, that'll be the end. It's always surprising. Yeah, because New Hampshire is not likely to make a very big difference in anything. South Carolina, maybe a little bit more. Well, the governor of New Hampshire, hasn't he come out for a hailing to Nunu? I think he did. That's right, yeah. I think he wants all the other candidates to drop out, because he thinks she can beat him one-on-one. I think I read that a few days ago. Of course, they're not. Christie's not dropping out, even though he's got as much chance as you have. Or maybe less. No, maybe. Mine's zero. His may be negative. I mean, we haven't even talked about the war in Israel and Gaza. I mean, we could go on and on and on and on for hours on what's happening in the Middle East. I mean, it's just horrible to even think about, no matter what you think about, who's right, who's wrong, tens of thousands of innocent people are being killed in retaliation for a brutal, brutal assault. And Israel has lost the support of the entire world, basically, because of its aggressive posture. You can understand it. But it's hard to accept that a long conversation last night at dinner with someone who's really pro-Israeli and just was all over me for not being the same. And I said, I'm sorry. I can see killing every Hamas soldier you can find. But 20,000 people killed and how many homeless and no food, no shelter. I said, at some point, it's got to be a little bit of humanitarian view. And then he starts pointing out, what happened when we bombed residents? I go, you know what? I wasn't born. No, Hiroshima. You know, I mean, he says, that's what happens in a war. Well, you know, you hope that people become a little bit more understanding of morality. Where do we look for that learning? Where are the models? Where are the examples? Where are the? That's a great question. Where do you look? Seriously, I can't really know. Does it religious leaders? There are some very good ones and some crazies. I mean, you can't look to your elected representatives. I'm talking generally now. Don't get on my, nobody get on me talking about anybody in Hawaii. I'm talking about generally. So you can't look upon the political system. At one point, I think you can still look upon the courts, even though it's changing a little bit. But it's changing back a little bit now as Biden is appointing more people. But you know, the courts have always been a place people looked even for a traffic ticket at the misdemeanor court. But there's a lot of criticism now of courts, starting with the criminal courts going all the way up to the US Supreme Court. Even our Hawaii Supreme Court is under some review now for one of the two new appointees to the court. I mean, for not quote this closing close quote that he was involved in Governor Green's re-election in some capacity with a nonprofit. But hey, still lucky you look for one. Yeah. But who do you look to? Who do you look to? Turn the question around. Yeah. To be completely honest with you, the one place where I really do see there's some light. And it's not just a glimmer, but there's real light. It is in literature. There are some fiction and some nonfiction writers and works that have come out within recent years and are coming out. There are people like Barbara Cox Richardson. There are people like Isabel Wilkerson. There are people we can go back to, like Toni Morrison, that are putting. They're trying, but I mean, who follows them? I mean, I hear you, by the way. I mean, I think it gives you solace every night if you read a couple of chapters of a good book. But the next morning, we're back to reality. I'm not saying these people can't be leaders, but they're not because there aren't enough people that want to follow them. I mean, I wouldn't have thought of that, but I think I can understand why you say that. I mean, who do people look up to in the past? Their parents? Well, now I guess they look up to their parents if they need a place to live, but your parents? It's the only way they're afforded to buy, right? Right. Your parents, you can afford to buy some. So you look up to your parents. You look up to your peers. You used to look up to the courts. You used to look up to politicians. The leaders in your community, even if they're not politicians, religious leaders, major business leaders. But you look up to teachers. That's a good point, too. But they're very, very challenged now. They're scared and they're threatened. They should be scared. Yeah. Well, I don't have any answers. If I did, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. Well, if you did have answers, where would you be? What would you be doing? I don't know, but I don't have any. I don't have to worry about where I would put them. Too hypothetical to answer. I get it. Here I am, 76. It's still working every day when I'm not out of town, and you know, which I enjoy. I mean, you can sometimes look up to your business peers. All is not lost. But I would not bet on an optimistic 2000. I just would. I think the odds are strongly against it. And I hope I'm wrong. And it's personally impossible to argue with that. I mean, if you look at the biggest probably factor of them all, the universal factor climate change, that's going nowhere good on only really, really bad places and much higher speed than anyone would acknowledge could even be manageable. We're wavy on that. We're warp speed in climate change disruption. How many people don't believe in climate change? What's the numbers show? I haven't seen a recent poll, but it's not an insignificant number. There is an overlap between that and the mega group. Yes, of course. All those issues. There's an overlap. There's an overlap about immigrants bringing in drugs, fentanyl every day, and raping our women. And those are the same people. The same people who say guns don't kill people. People do. The same people that think Trump is a messiah and go on and on and on and on. The problem, I know we're running out of time, the problem is not that there are some people who believe in it. That's OK. There's always been some people. The problem is it's a very large minority. Almost the majority. That's the scary thing that I leave you with. Well, and it's a very aggressive large minority. There, they include factions that are extremely violent. They include factions that are verbally and mentally emotionally violent. They include factions that are violent in their opposition to educational rights, health care rights, all kinds of rights. So this is not just a difference. This is an extremely aggressive, dangerous, oppositional division that we're looking at. Well, there are people that won't accept others' views. You can disagree, but when you disagree by threatening someone to shoot their head off or sending poison in the mail or sending multiple internet messages, threatening families. And Trump's the cause of all of this, all of it. Every single thing. I don't care what anybody says. Yes, they may have been in the woodwork, but now they have a leader. And that's the scary, scary, scary part. It's not just him. He's got his minions. Oh, yeah. You know, they're not as powerful as them. He loves them. He not only incites and encourages them, but if they get caught, he will pardon them. He will exonerate them. He will sweep them under the umbrella of an extremely toxic. Well, all you have to know is that he's not just a dictator, he wants to be a dictator for one day. So all he needs, he says, is one day to change the country. One day. So keep your eyes open for January 2nd, whenever. He might, unfortunately. March 21st, whatever the day after he swore in. We'll see what happens. I mean, you know, who knows? Who thought Obama would be president? You know, who knows? I've never even heard of the guy, you know, a year before, really. I mean, you never know. And, you know, both of those guys aren't spring chickens. You know, both of the leading candidates. I mean, I hate to say it, but, you know, they're not 30. They're not, you know, let's take it in a crosswalk. You know, I mean, they've got health issues like everybody else who's in their late 70s or early 80s is going to have something. And, you know, Trump seems healthier, but, you know, he's scary to look at. And who knows? So let me ask a purely hypothetical question because you cannot possibly have it. If Obama were to run against Trump now, what's your call? I don't know. It's a great question. That's close. I think so. I think a lot has come off of Obama's luster or the novelty. And it's nothing personally. It was just dear playing golf every day. I got a picture with a friend of mine with Trump out of, I mean, with Obama out of the golf course. I just think you need a virtually unknown, but experienced, energetic, rational liberal. That would make my year complete if that person could emerge and become president. And we can go through a whole list. There's not like there's nobody out there. As I said earlier, there's some women governors. There are some senators of both male and female. And there's probably some other people we never heard of that are in other industries or other professions that can galvanize the majority. Problem is, there's no more silent majority. There are vocal minorities. That's the problem with the country. Armed vocal minorities. Yeah, well, but there's vocal minorities on both sides. I mean, they have different tactics. So anyway, it's gonna be interesting. But as long as think tech and you were on all as well. Too kind, Jeff. So we're out of time for today. Oh boy, what a disappointment. But, oh no, yes. No, we'll leave us with a two-word adage which is about all that's left to us out of that swath of evaluative observations. Our two words for you as we enter 2024. Good luck. Make it, appreciate it and pay it forward. Aloha, thanks so much for joining us. Think Tech Hawaii. Hi.