 Welcome everybody back to the Segal Talks here at the Markney Segal Theater Center at the Credit Center CUNY at the City University of New York in New York City. New York is at the moment the epicenter in the world of the corona crisis. Again we had over a thousand theater center at the Credit Center CUNY. We had people in a day and so we are contributing and listening to the artist to find a way to cope with this crisis, to find meaning in these days in these unprecedented times. And as always artists have been on the right side of social programs of justice. And we should have listened to them much, much better they detect things they anticipate the future that so many plays poems or ideas for the stage deal about deal with and so today we have two representatives from Eastern Europe or more mania. It's a great honor to have with us Michaela Tragan who was with us at the Segal Center already for the Penval Voices Festival and we have also Michaela Michaela with us and they will tell us a bit about the situation in Romania and Bucharest. The Segal Center always has British academia and professional theater, international and American theater, but in these days we feel it's really a responsibility to listen to also hear from all parts of the world where our theater colleagues and theater performance how they experienced this crisis. And so we get a perhaps a better view of the world, but also of their real thinking about it and the philosophy behind their words so Michaela's hello both. Where are you guys are you in Bucharest and what time is it. It's 7pm. Yes, we are both in Bucharest. Yeah. Yeah, they are. I think there's a small echo I don't know if it comes from my phone or if anybody has listening to the talk at the same time. Maybe how around can help us but it sounds like somebody has the live stream open on their computer and I go ahead and double check and make sure you have all your windows closed. Maybe one of yours. Maybe it's how around. So this is live as you guys. It looks like you may be having a little extra audio. Can you. Maybe you reconnect can you shut get out of a zoom talk and maybe reconnect and I speak with me at the moment. Okay, try to shut out of the programs again so Michaela. Tell us. Yeah. Yeah, these are the echoes of the virus so maybe it's already in the in the thing so Michaela Michaela I think how one said it might be on your computer. Could you get out of zoom sign out completely and then rejoin us and make sure everything is closed. If you close your browser window that should also help it. If you have Chrome or anything else open. Yeah, she is really doing it. And so Michaela. Tell us a little bit. What's going on in in Romania for how long have you be in in self confinement in your apartment or maybe not maybe you can go out what's going on in Romania. No, no, no, actually, no, there are many restrictions here in Bucharest and since 16 of March, actually. And actually the police are giving us big super big fine so everyone is afraid to go outside. So what is the idea you set to stay at home or you can go out visit you can you go take a walk in the park and you go shopping what is the idea. Only only with only with a document with a kind of declaration, you know, like, allow us to get to get outside and we have to specify the reason for which and we are allowed to go to the stores, or yet to move a little bit but the parks are closed so we can't really move. And, yeah, and maybe if we have a medical urgency we are allowed to get out but actually know there. I mean, the we are really afraid of the police and with, I mean, I know that all my friends we are just isolated in the in the house and nobody's getting out. I mean, and you are afraid what from the police. What would happen. They, they give big, big fines actually are the biggest fines from Europe I understood I just read an article about the like they can get to around 4000 euro yeah actually like 4000 euros incredible, which is about $5,000. Yeah, exactly. And we just experienced all these few last weeks a lot of abuses from the police, especially towards the Roma community. I mean, everyone is shocked by all this violence. Tell us a bit I know, and our viewers might not know they might not have read about you are part of the Roma community in Romania. So tell us a little bit about that experience. Yeah, actually, when everything started, a lot of Romanian immigrants started to come back to Romania immigrants from Germany, Italy, Spain and so on. And among them a lot of a lot of Roma but they were not welcome back. And they just been seen like the virus like they come with the virus and they don't keep the confinement rules and so on and just, we just saw the talk online harassment. It started like that. And after the police going to the, to the communities and just beating up children, men and Roma women. Can I stop you there? Can you say that again? The police goes into family houses or in the community and is beating up women and children because they think they are carriers of the virus. Yeah, exactly. And because, because they argue that they don't keep the confinement rules like they don't stay isolated but actually they are living in big, they are like big families and they are living many of them they are living together. So yeah, it was just the reason to, yeah, to entitle all this violence against Roma families and Roma houses and Roma communities. And we just saw this like, not only in Romania but in the whole Europe like I've just read reports from Hungary, Bulgaria, Slovakia, yeah. So I've been distracted by all these things in the last few weeks and I just hope that everything will come to the normal because it's invariable. So where do you live? How is your living situation in Bucharest? Where are you and what neighborhood? It's like, I'm a privileged Roma person because I'm living exactly in the center of Bucharest in a flat with a lot of white people so nobody will come to my door. Even, even that my mother was afraid of this, like she just, she just told me like few days ago to stop posting about the racism and all the violence towards Roma people because she's really afraid for me. And I just tried to calm down her because I'm living in a very good neighborhood here in Bucharest and yeah, among white people so probably I'm not the target. Where does she live, your mother? My mother, she lives in another city, actually she lives in a Roma neighborhood and she, I mean she's happy because she has a kind of garden and she can get out from time to time but yeah, like everyone is afraid of it. So, we just wait now for the 15th of May, like in two weeks, we'll be allowed to get out without this declaration. I mean, we'll be allowed to get out only wearing a mask, a protection mask, so I really hope that the things we try will improve. And yeah, because now it was a lot of fear, I don't know how the other Mihail experience disguises, but for me it wasn't easy. And yes, I've been distracted from my work by all these violence. So has your mother seen those police portalities, it's happened to friends or family? It happened not to my family, but yes, friends, like for example to friends or people whom I've been working in the past in the Roma neighborhoods because I've been working a lot with Roma women from the Roma neighborhoods in forum theaters and so on. Yeah, like the monologues you showed at the Segal were based on lives of the women, right? Yeah, and exactly, and friends of them and like the police just abused them, they were just there in the Roma neighborhoods. We have here two or three Roma neighborhoods where mostly Roma people are living. So yeah, I heard a lot of abusive situations also from the other cities around Bucharest, like the police just trying to intimidate them. I have friends who are living there and they are afraid to go outside to the store because like a lot of police is around it and they try to intimidate them. And I just spoke with a friend that she has two uncles that they are disabled and they were really scared by all these graves of the police. Do you think the police is ordered to do that or do they do that on their own or is there an order out from? It's like, of course, I mean, of course, like they were people that address this to the government, but it's like the government is also entitled them to do this. We can't really rely on our government that really took the power now and not in a good way at all. So they are not, of course, like the Roma organizations, NGOs, like the Roma movement tried to complain and make petitions and so on, but there is so much hate speech now. I just feel that the racism increased so much now during the pandemic that there is nobody here to defend us, to defend the Roma community. So it's tolerated if not perhaps encouraged. Exactly. The media also is encouraging a lot the hate speech, like every day we just read the racist articles about how Roma people, they don't respect the confinement rules. So this is why the police try to make them to respect the rules in a very specific way. Yeah, that is shocking to hear. Of course, there are different traditions of living together, different ways of living together over centuries, and they have a need to be respected. And it is shocking to hear that in a European country, police will go to innocent people's homes and beat up women and children. I'm shocked to hear that. I haven't read that anywhere. That should be on front page news. It's shameful. And for sure, not a good sign for the Romanian country to also have this, of course, next to many other things, but this is a reality there. Mihailov, thanks for being back and sorry about that. Typicalties, we should have checked that earlier. We didn't hear it when we do the soundtrack. But things do happen and who knows how other viruses are infecting our communication. So tell us a little bit, how are you experiencing this? I will just say a little bit about what Mihailov said because I think it's very important that all this emergency state, in fact, encourages and emphasizes different types of violences. And the fact that we have very, how to say that we have governments who don't really take care of their citizens, that's a problem that we saw in Romania. This month, for instance, we also saw a government which was completely incapable of protecting the citizens who went to work abroad, who went, who left Romania in very precarious conditions because they have no possibility to work here. So they had to go to Germany and we assisted at various, we saw various images which were really, really... What did you see? What images did you see? We saw, for instance, in an airport, in Cluj, in like thousands of people, very desperate because they had no possibilities to stay here and to work in Romania. They were leaving the country with no measures of security and they went to Germany and to work there and we also heard about and read a lot of articles about the conditions they worked there. Of course, we know this happened also before, but when you say that citizens that in our country we are not allowed to leave our homes and when you see such images, in fact, you are confronted with a very unstable and with a very problematic state. And I guess all this month we saw the incapacity of the government to really protect precarious people, to really have a standpoint and to really, in a way, fight for all these people. And this is really, really, it's very violent to see all this going on. Yeah. Let me just... So everybody has to stay at home, but seasonal workers like Romanian workers who, for example, worked for asparagus, season or others, they were allowed to go out with no security measures together in big groups. And then they go to Germany, if they come back, people think they carry disease on both sides, wherever they will go, they will be looked at as people who bring the coronavirus. Do I understand that right? Yes, yes, yes, yes. You understand it right and all the declarations and all the... when the government was asked and when the president was asked how could this be, how this was possible, all their affirmations were completely outrageous if you really see the situation. The fact that you have no protection for all these people because all these years you haven't cared about them and all these years you haven't had as a state politics of protection of all these workers. And we saw people who couldn't, I don't know, go from Italy to Romania, who just called the embassy and nobody answered them, so desperate people, desperate care workers, yes, so there were quite violent images. So seasonal workers would try to get back to Romania and Romania would not let them in? No, no, I'm talking about the moment when Romania said that it's very, as Mihaila explained you, that it becomes problematic for an Italian who was working abroad to come back and the Romanian government said you shouldn't come back because there is coronavirus and it's very problematic. And all these people in different other countries, Italy, Spain, they just found without any support and any financial need. And we had like, I don't know, women who were working in Austria and the people they cared about, they were old, they died and the women had no possibility and no financial support from the state. To come back to Romania. To come back to Romania, yeah. But were they asked to come back and, or did the government say stay where you are? So in one hand thousands were allowed to leave in chaotic circumstances without masks to do, to work as former, ignoring all health advisories, and then the people who are already outside are not supported to come back in a way that is safe, is that right? Yes, they are not, they are not supported and they are not even encouraged to come back. I mean, they were said you should remain there, you should try to remain there, even if for some of them was completely impossible to remain there because they had no financial support and they had no possibility to remain there. And that is totally shocking. We had a call from an early on in India with Anarupa Roy. It was a great puppeteer and she said she looked out of the streets to New Delhi and 500,000 people like these seasonal worker people who work in people's home, 500,000 try to leave New Delhi on feet with children on their back and their belongings in the suitcase. Some prepared to march a thousand kilometers without food help. So they started to leave and they also were, I guess, attacked by the people on the road. People had to feed them but people said we can't do that. Then state borders closed, they were sent back but they had no place to go and many people in New Delhi do great work to try to care for them. I was not aware that such a, the traumatic circumstances are also happening in Romania and what do the Romanians say? How do the Romanian people look at this? Do they think it's just a small minority? It's not a big problem. Is there a civil dispute about this? Yeah, I mean I'm just, I mean we have only the social platforms now where a lot of people are, is more and more present and of course like they argue always like is this more leftist part who really try to support and talk a lot about these workers and what was happening in the position of the government. And yeah, it's the other side who is supporting the government, I suppose. But yeah, we just, for example, we just wait it now to see how the situation after the emergency state will improve, like what will be allowed for us and we just, I mean I just talked with Mihaila before about this, like do you have any news about theater? What will happen? They will open the theater and actually we don't know anything now from the, I mean they just announced that they will reopen the museums. But I just deviated a little bit from the topic. But yeah, I think a lot of people like in Romania, I mean they don't believe that the virus exists, like I saw a lot of this, like, and especially the old people, like we, it's very funny the situation. I don't know if Mihaila knows more because I know that she has been working with more old people in theater the last years. But like what we experienced here in Romania is like the people they don't really believe that the virus exists and they just fight. And there are a lot of conspirations regarding this and why the government wants us to believe that this virus exists but actually no. And yeah, I mean I think there are many different opinions regarding all this situation and coming back to our position as theater makers, like we are really confused about what is going to happen in the next month for us because like you know, like the, we heard that the museum will be reopened but there is no solution how the theater will be reopened and I don't think this season, this stay season will, will, our, will, we're going to work again. Yeah, and I guess what is really, is really problematic is that they, I mean we are not confronted with any plan. We don't know how it will happen, when it will happen as Mihaila said when the theaters are going to be to be open in what conditions. And of course there are a lot of problems for independent artists, for artists who are very, who are dependent in a way on, on every project because if you know if you just have independent projects and your projects cannot be, cannot be your theater pieces cannot be performed so and you don't know when, or if they are going to be performed. Of course your precarity becomes more and more problematic and nobody really, really talks about this. Of course they imagined a little help, let's say financial help for the artists who are independent but also with a lot of bureaucratic aspects. But in fact what is really in a way, what we are afraid is that we are, we don't have a plan and nobody really knows what is going to happen. And of course those who are really depending on projects and are really like, if I know I will have my piece done or not for those people is really, really complicated. And it will also be because we are in a country where all the independent sector all the independent artists in fact are financed only by one, one financial source, so we have one financial source for the whole country, for all the independent artists and it's really, really problematic. So, is there a free press in that sense where people, the television news and in writing do you feel people are informed in a way about the virus and about the situation in Romania, with all the problems and the situation of artists, is there access to information? I think in my opinion yes, like I've seen a lot of news on television and I think yeah the people are informed and this is why it's like very funny for me that I meet, when I meet old people outside or to the store, they have all this conspiracy in their mind and they don't really protect themselves and because when I go outside I really try to have a mask and everything and I see a lot of old people that they don't really use protection. So, yeah, I think I forgot the first question. So, that's perhaps of the history that governments cannot be trusted, people will not trust whatever, when something even real in a way comes up. And going back to the information, yeah, I feel that yes, there's a lot of information, like I don't know if it's because of me, I have access to all this information, but I feel that people, they are really talking about this, it's like, yeah, it's the first topic. Is the government doing a good job in Romania? No, it's not, it's not, it's not because as I said they are, in my opinion, they are more concerned about little enterprises and about the business sector and about going back to economy and they are not so concerned about different, about precarious people, about people who cannot have the privilege to stay home because they cannot, who don't know if tomorrow they have a job or they don't have a job. So, this of course, there has to be an interest in economy and I can completely understand it, but the price I guess is sometimes is too big. And the fact that the government in all its public debates and doesn't have solutions or tries to not to see the realities of different other categories, it's really, really problematic and we see it every single day. And how are the infection rates and people dying, is it moderate, has it arrived fully, is it behind you? I think we didn't reach the peak, like in this moment, you want to know about the cases. I think there are 40,000 around, yes, around now and 860 deaths, something like that, yes, I just need more. But people are not very, I'm not tested, you know, so we don't, we really, really don't know exactly because they are not tested, so we cannot say. No tests available and. Yes, so we cannot say very clearly what is the real situation, in fact. And one doesn't know how many people have died because of it because it's not always counted right and the interest of often is to project a social order, that's not really there. For you as leader artists, is there help that you said that one organization, for you is someone offering you help. I assume for the next five, six months everything has been canceled, I assume, is there help for you? I mean, it's a little help from the government, from the independent sector. So you had to apply with an email or? Yeah, we have to, yeah, it's very bureaucratic as I said, it's really like I tried to do this and I gave up at some point. What did you have to do, let me know. Like just to sign some things to, to send them some documents, like to, like some, yeah, because like one and one, they will, they will give you some help, only if you have a contract in the last three months, you know, and this is, you know, like there are many independent artists, they work, you know, you know how it's the answer. So yeah, there was this, this condition to receive this help and actually is only until now, only in May. So I don't know if, if the independent artists, they are going to receive more help after this date. And it's like, if I'm not wrong, is, is around $500. It's not a lot. Yes. And yeah, and you have to make, yeah, to make this application that is like, for me, didn't work. But we'll, we'll not, we don't know what is going to happen after this date, after 15 of May. I suppose they, I mean, the correct will be just prolong this, this little help. It's so complicated to do you, you kind of gave up. Mihaela, how is it for you? I have a privilege in the sense that I'm also having classes at the university in Bucharest, so I'm also there. And from this, you teach playwriting or, yes, I'm teaching playwriting. So from this point of view, I'm, let's say more stable. So we have also problem with the space we have the replica center because he's an independent space and now because we don't have any, any kind of activities we really don't know if if or for how long we will be able to to have the space in Bucharest because we have to pay the rent and all other things. So, yeah, it becomes so it becomes more and more difficult in fact to be an independent artist in Romania these days. So how is the situation for for for these kind of as you call it independence theater how, how well, let's even before the bar how well is it fun to do people come is there a need for it. Is it a small audience a bigger audience how, how, how are you connected to live in Bucharest. And of course in the independent spaces in Bucharest are not so big so it's less than 100 people that you can have. It's quite difficult because we are not we don't get to finance for the space we get financed for projects, and we have to be sure that we always put some money aside in order to be able to to have the rent page. But I guess in the last years the independent sector quite developed what it's a pity is that some independent spaces, because the financial conditions are very precarious they just disappeared. And they were really, really important, but so it was very difficult for them to keep on to keep on going and it becomes more and more difficult in these times to to be able to to pay the rent and all the other, all the other things as I said but I think it's I think it's important that they created an audience and that they developed an audience and sometimes, I guess also Mihaela can say because she does amazing things with her company, they did more for instance than the public sector. And it's also important because we have very, very few for instance public theaters who are really, really eager to collaborate with the independent sector. We have the Jewish theater we have the small the small theater but these are very it's it's it's very in a way of course it's good that it is, but it's not enough it's less than than enough and this is also a problem. Public theaters the problem with them in Romania is that they are most of the times they are interested only in productions, in productions that don't don't risk that don't, for instance, I don't know approach let's say, political or social themes they quite they they they don't want to go into this, apart from the exception I told about. And it's difficult for you as an artist who has an interest in various topics and who is in a way social or political, it's quite difficult for you to to connect with them and yeah, you, you see they are quite not interested. How is the reception of your work and you come out of the remote Roma community, your exceptional work you you do with telling their stories but also telling stories for women in Romania. How, how is the reception of your work. I think in the last two years the, the work have improved in the, because like we, we started to collaborate to yeah with few state theaters that they were eager to collaborate with us and this was a big step for us and especially for our community because whatever ever Roma production was in a state theater. And I think I have the impression that all the independent sector in Romania, we have our own audience. I mean I have this feeling you know that the audience, the jubilee pen audience is also going to replica, or to other independent companies that they we are doing more theater they are specifically interested in this kind of theater this is why we wanted to penetrate it also the mainstream audiences and have productions in the state theaters where the audience is less aware, let's say, about all these topics and they are used with another kind of theater that, yeah. And I have the, I have the impression I mean the last three years for us in jubilee pen they were really good because like we had the production with the juice theater. And we had another production with another state theater from another city that Roland Reimuretciano that I really, I really like their, their productions and their repertoire. And I think there is, we had a good feedback, of course, like everything is very new somehow for the audience like even seeing a whole Roma cast on the stage. It's a big thing, you know, for an audience that never was used to see this, or like the last year we, we, we work in this small theater in another cities, because like if Bucharest is somehow more used with political theater and with the topic that we are working with, like in the small cities the things are not the same. So it was, it was very interesting and I think this is a work that we have to do, like to just penetrate more state theaters and go to these cities, you know, where the audience is not, never have seen, you know, a whole Roma cast on the stage or, you know, like we just had this last show about Roma futurism and about the future. About technology, by the way, we really cursed Boris Johnson, and when he catch coronavirus, we thought that is because of us. Okay. Yeah, you did some witchcraft, which you put in your place. Yes. Yeah, it was actually techno witchcraft and it was very funny really laughed because we focus the whole show is about the computer virus. Yeah, and we just cursed fascist politicians from Europe and one of them was Boris Johnson and it was very funny when, when we heard that he has coronavirus that maybe like our curse. Coming from Germany of course I feel it's a tough word to use fascism when it has to be careful, but certainly lots of politics he implemented and his goal to get the UK out of the European Union. And there's something we do not support or wish it would, it would not have happened for. I know even in Germany is the Gorky is one of the first theater that put on Roma plays also we haven't really seen that we haven't really focused on that important, you know, an issue that is that is out there where theater also really can can communicate something and can, and can, can tell stories. Why do you guys do theater in Romania, but what is what is making your motor work why, why doing this in such difficult circumstances. Yeah, I feel that I am is very important to be here I feel that Romanian need us. And yeah, specifically because like I feel I mean comparison with Berlin I think Berlin is, is more used with Roma production somehow. And of course like Roma army was the first showing Gorky was, you know, on a big stage and so on but there were all these years small productions and like Berlin audience they they had access somehow to Roma theater. And I mean, of course like many times I'm thinking of moving from the city and I am fed up with everything what is happening him. I mean in the last years I had the privilege to travel a lot and working in other countries so it was easier to stay here from time to time and to work here. But I feel that the work that we, we do like me and my, my colleagues from Juvelepen like it's very needed here in Romania because like here is a special environment we have a whole history of racism here and we don't I mean this is why now we Roma people are so abused because it's not this collective you know memory about the slavery Roma slavery holocaust and so on. And we, we have to do this work through through art like and many, many times like after our shows like I'm just surprised that people they don't know anything about Roma people here in Romania, even if we are living here for a centuries you know, so I think. Yeah, it's, we have to be here and we like the work that we do is very important, especially here. But yes, I'm really thinking many times like just leave the country and I have these impures that I have to leave. And sometimes yeah it's a lot of it's a lot of pressure because like having this responsibility as an artist you know it's a lot of pressure to talk about this topics in your art. This is why the last year I've been working so much on Roma future for my futurism and developing this topic about Roma people in the future because like we as theater makers we always feel this pressure to talk about this unknown and recognize the past operative past and operative history. And this doesn't give us space to think about us in the future or having access to, to technology or imagining as exploring the space or so on. And yeah, I mean it's, it's not easy but I think it's meaningful at the end of the day to do this here. How was it for you meet me. For me in a way. It's like Mihaila said, I guess for me theater is also responding to some local realities and I think it's, I feel more connected to our political realities and to, to the view. I can put on. And I think it's important that mean replica. We developed a lot of activities in schools and in high schools, and we went to. We also wanted to go to schools. Which are not so privileged and to work with, with kids who don't have access to, to shows for instance we have worked and have done different, different shows or different debates with kids who have never stepped into a theater and for us was really, was really important to to go there and to keep contact to all this to all these kids. Not only because we say that we, it's important to do theater for kids because we have the audience of tomorrow. Now for us, it's important to have to work with kids and teenagers because we think they could be more involved in this political realities and more aware of this and they could respond to this. Because in a way, probably, you know, or you don't know that when you say political theater or socially involved engage theater when you say this in Romania it's quite, it's not so good. Also because we tend because of our history sometimes we tend to, to make to when we say political theater we think about propaganda because we have this history in communism, but I guess it's very important to talk about this in our days and to try to, to create in a way a different kind of contra propaganda through theater and to bring about subjects and themes who are perceived only from, from one perspective as Mihaila said or to give them a broader broader significance and also to have, to allow different other audiences to have access to theater because theater in my opinion and I'm sure also in Mihaila's opinion and her group should be for everyone and should be and everyone should have in a way have access to, to, to imagining realities and changing realities through theater. So I guess this is one of the, in a way the, the, yes the motives we are still here. Yeah. And also Romania has a great, great history of theater I think it's one of the countries also in, in Europe that for a long time, we have of course, Andrei Shaban who is well known Moshe Azur who comes out of the Yiddish theater the Jewish leader also in in Bucharest, but, but there has been so many Romanian significant directors coming out who have also fought for social justice so I think, and every system needs updates so I think what you guys do also from the fringes from the marginalized distance to the center you know you perhaps much clearer view of a, of a Romanian society or filmmakers at the moment are so significant that worldwide so lots of it is going on but they are yeah great great problems out there, since the opening of the building wall and, and it is something to work through and their work is needed it's truly shocking to hear that even now there's police brutality for clearly only erases reasons. And we heard from African American playwrights who are with us also that they feel their families who by the way are making wills, you know they say they work in the health industry in the service industry. They don't have they say bank accounts they don't have jobs and they be forced now to make make our bills and the white America looks at us as we are the ones who bring the diseases because they have higher percentage of diabetes and perhaps sometimes from from personal medical problems and that they are now looked at as the ones who carry the disease even so we all know the virus does not distinguish between race and class and culture so it's a it's a shocking thing to do and it's a brave of you to do be out there and do your work. Do you feel the time you are experiencing now is has an impact on your artistic work and maybe you are now in book rest in your in your rooms and it's a time to think. What do you do all day and is anything changing in your in your in your view of the world. Totally I mean to be to be honest I haven't been so creative this weeks and I just decided to not feel guilty about this. Because like it's really a difficult difficult time and with everything that happens so. I mean at the beginning I was just happy that I have time to rest thing that I didn't have before but yeah after two weeks it became too much and I am. I honestly I don't I'm not doing anything creative I'm just reading things or and the watching or the movies that I couldn't watch before because I hadn't have time. But is is very difficult for me I mean I mean I try I try to write I wrote some articles but I couldn't write anything more like I didn't feel that I have the the mentor space to. To write a play or to do really something important I I don't know how how Mihaila feels about this but for me like I couldn't I feel that I I don't have this this energy now to do this. Yeah for me I have classes on zoom and it becomes more and more difficult. I guess I in the beginning I thought it would be I don't know it would be like a life classes. It would be like going to university but in fact it's not and I guess it's also. In a way the motivating also for the for the students because they don't seem to have any perspective and it's really tough for those who are going to to finish in fact this to graduate this year it's really really tough for them. Because they should have finished their shows or their place and it's a little. I mean I was every single day when I have a class I'm I in a way face this this question but why am I doing this. Why do I have to finish my thesis or my play and I guess it's quite it's quite an important question. And I was of course in the in the last weeks I had ups and downs. I try also to stay with my child because he's four years and he couldn't go to kindergarten and it begins to be more and more difficult. Also for the kids and also for us because we have to work from home and being with the kids all the time it's not so easy when you have also to finish things. Yeah so as me how I read some things I just watched movies but I didn't try to too much. But I guess it's also OK to to have I mean to think about this and I'm also a little bit fed up with this discourse that we should be very optimistic and bury like. to be very optimistic and very like, try to do the best of our times. I'm a little bit also fed up with this discourse and also with the discourse that we should all be happy that we are going back to normality because I think we should question more and more what this normality meant before and what's normality we would like to embrace because I think this is really, really problematic. Do you feel people in Romania that will question deeply, what is happening, will something be happening when this is over? Do you feel there is a change going to be coming? Not really, I really hope that now is the time for the revolution that we always hope to happen and yeah, exactly how Mihaila said, when we'll come back to this normal, we should question what the normal look like. But yeah, I don't think that many changes will happen. I mean, I try to keep distance from the social media, but at the same time I can't and I'm just following people and I don't feel that something will happen like this revolution that everyone is hoping for will not really happen and it was really a lot of disappointment now with all the measures that the government took and we just felt, I mean, I felt powerless, yeah. Yeah, more or less I have the same impression that not big changes will be because I think the people who decide and who have the power, they really don't question the system, for instance, in theaters, I doubt that the people who are managers of theaters will really, really think about the system of production, they have been before, I doubt they will really do this kind of reflection and try to, in a way to think about, I don't know what, because we are talking about theater means being together but what this togetherness means in fact and for lots of theaters, this means nothing. We have public theaters which are financed by, who have public money but how public are they? Are they public for whom they function in fact? There are questions that they should, I mean, they should try to reflect on and I doubt they will really do because it's more, in a way it's easier to be, to keep your activities as you have had them before and really not to really reflect on what you could do better and in a way try to put aside the system of production which becomes more and more obsessive and the fact that one shows more ends and you have to produce another one and then another one and then another one, really not have time to reflect on them, to create also other, let's say, I don't know, territories of togetherness and I think it would be nice if people would take this time to reflect by, I really doubt. What would you guys dream up if you could for these? I like this phrase, the territories of togetherness for theater, what would you dream of? What would you like to see in Bucharest in Romania? What would be the change you would embrace? Ooh, I think, yeah, more support for independent sector and like personally, I really, I just repeat this every time. I would really love to have a Roma State Theater in Romania in the future. If this will happen, yeah, it would be clearly a change. Do you have a theater, a stage that is a Roma theater dedicated to your work and culture? Yeah, we never had in Romania and we just request this, we requested all these years, but like nobody wants to hear us. But yeah, this will be a real change. But I'm not so, I really don't think that this will happen. But yeah, more support for the independent sector will be, wow, will be something that we all need. Yeah, I totally agree with Mihaela. And also for those who I don't know to our managers of theater, in a way to give birth to more possibilities because to invent more frames and to try to have more different artists, even if they are theaters, I don't know, I would like to see, for instance, more choreographers working in theaters with different other artists. I mean, to be more open to different other formats or shapes or different other ways of framing performance, I don't know, performances and other things because I think this is something that really lacks in a more broader perspective that those who really have money because they have theaters and they have people who are employed there, they could allow more easily than us. We are really dependent on funds. We are really dependent on a deadline. We are like very, we have to be very strict. We are also in cases of Mihaela actresses, producers, cleaning stages and other things. So we are doing a lot of things and sometimes, unfortunately, our creativity lacks in a way because we have to do all these things. But I think it's really, you are really lucky if you are working today, if you are the manager of a public theater today because I guess you could imagine more things and it's a pity that those people who are there really don't give birth to various possibilities of creating theaters. So we hope that anyone of those theaters are listening or people who are in charge of it and I think these are significant changes. They actually create better theaters. I mean, it's human rights as we think, access to health, care, access to education and access to the arts. And we know that the product, this theater is better if it's open, if they are in that post-traumatic way. There are different elements existing next to each other in the same order, whether it's movement, light, writing, choreography. And this is an ensemble work, a significant different languages, parallel on stage. And also as Milo Rao said again, what he tries, also Oscar Eustis just said from the public theater in New York, perhaps, it also has to get out of the spaces into the rooms of the city, whether they are outside or inside in different forms. Milo Rao said they are planning that they cannot go into the space anyway. Perhaps artists will inhabit or people could come all day and go on the theaters in installation to use it in a different way, but to really create a dialogue with the city and there's so much to explore and to build on. So I think what you are thinking about or dreaming about is really also needed to get a better theater, to get a contemporary theater. And of course there should also be the plays of the history which you do have. But I think as Hans-Sies Lehmann said theater is a house, it has many rooms, but they also have to be new rooms that are inhabited and they have to be like in a museum where you have different centuries next to each other represented in art. It should also be in the same way. Again, I'm shocked to hear about the police brutality. I know that also Romania will be European capital of the culture, right? Is it next year in Sibu? Yes, in 2021. Actually, yes, the next year. So are you invited for that, Michaela? I don't know about replica, I suppose. Yeah, we are invited for some events. Actually, some of them should have been happened in May, but of course they are cancelled. So, yeah, I mean, we receive some some proposer to be there to participate with our shows there and even to organize bigger events together with others. So I think it's important that we have bigger events together with other collectives there, but now everything is unheard of. So, yeah. Yes, we have also invited by the National Theatre, but we don't know if we are going to do something or not because there are also financial problems with the capital and there are different kinds of problems they are facing. So, nothing is really sure. Yeah. Is there anything you would like to say, would you say to fellow artists or people, or listeners, but also people in Bucharest and their houses or so, what gives you meaning or what do you feel is significant to focus on at the moment? What should we be doing? Yeah, I don't know if I have an answer now. I mean, I haven't been thinking about this. I really hope that this sort of situation will bring us together. Yeah, I think. And also like how Mihaila said, like also the public state, the state theater, they will just rethink themselves and their artistic practices and so on, because like we are doing a lot of us independent theater collectives here in Bucharest, we are doing a lot of work here, you know, that the state theater, they don't do it. And we learn how to make responsible art, you know, and respect for the regarding all groups, things that we don't see in the state theaters, you know, like many times I've been amazed to hear about, you know, like situation, like, yeah, anti-feminist situation that happened in theaters or, you know, like we had this recently, this, I mean, not so recently, but this scandal with this big director, Jolda, that is also in German, you know, that was slapping an actress. And we felt that, you know, this is the moment. He was slapping an actress. Yeah, exactly. And we felt, you know, like we, the independent theater makers really tried to open a debate about this, you know, because we are the ones doing, you know, a lot of responsible art in our, you know, our collectives. Yeah. And actually the director of the theater, he tried to, to defense Jolda, not the actress, and this was, wow. Unacceptable, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I don't, I don't think that the state theaters, they have the awareness that we have, and they occasionally question it, you know, so I really hope that they, somehow they will be influenced by our practices because like, I mean, in this moment, like I'm not really interested at what is happening in the state theaters, and I'm not going to see plays. They're very rarely I'm going like theirs. So I really hope that we, somehow we will come together and the rights of the independent artists here will be, yeah, more defended. And we, we can influence them. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Mihaela, Mihaela, what do you think? I don't know. It's quite a, it's quite a difficult question. I would say that it's important in a way to, to think of this period as a time of, of changing a little bit. And I think that it's important to think about our, our former normality and not too long for, for coming to that normality and to hope that, that normality is really lost. I hope it is lost because from many perspective, it was very, very problematic and try to invent new, new normalities and more inclusive and more reflexive. And in a way you're more careful to, to these possibilities of change. I guess this would be not to cry for what we lost, but to hope we'll, we'll invent new, new normalities. What you might, what you might gain and that a new normal should not be the old normal. And that perhaps, you know, art and culture can contribute as a Romania, who's the host as the European capital of arts. In the coming year. So I thank you for, for sharing. I know that says not easy and we don't know enough. And it's also a big, big, big place for Romania. We would have talked to other artists who would hear different perspective. But this is how our Mikaela's are experiencing this moment. And it's very serious what they say, what they think about. We are part of the world theater community. So we admire you. It's important what you do and also staying in your place to act locally, but to think globally. And we are connected to the contemporary world and theater. And, and we hope that we all will be back to the seagull. And one day. And to our listeners, thank you for listening in. I know how much is on your plate. All day, maybe even now for lunch in New York for the way, but it's been, it's been difficult times. And we also don't know what will happen. Over a thousand people again died in a day. In America. And it's, it's devastating and about zoom classes. The first students are suing universities to get their monies back. They feel zoom is not adequate, you know, so how do we really in America where you pay a lot, you know, how does, how does that whole system really working? And not so everything that's not working. It shows Richard Shekno said it's like a quoting a friend. It's like a nuclear reactor, which has a meltdown, but the roof is open. And we look into it. It's a disaster. Everything that didn't work before is not working at all. And, but there's hope. And as always, perhaps to learn something out of crisis. And sometimes money has to come to a crisis. So tomorrow we have Sue Laker Alana from India, who will talk again as a second guest from that great, great continent to tell us about the reality in India. During the Corona time, but also what it means for theater artists. And then we have a step, a step, Stacey Klein from the double-edged theater in upstate New York, who runs the out of the farm. And, and a step on the more so from the New York city, Middle Stiff family circus, you know, to see what are those communities doing? How do they experiencing this, this, this moment that is unprecedented. And as you guys said, and we don't know what will happen. And what is waiting for us. If it's hard on the theater community, on artists, they are the first on the line in a society, but they contribute so much. They produce imagination. And we have to have that in order to imagine a better world. And so much, so many problems. We do have racism, you know, phobia and others. They come from a lack of failure of imagination. So this work is significant and important. And I hope we have, maybe one day you will look back and say, this is when I said, we should have a Roma theater. And maybe one day you will get it. It should be there. And so we have to have that in order to imagine a better world. And so we have to have that as we should have a Native American theater, a stage at least one in the United States. There's not. So this is a big global, a global problem. So again, thank you all for, for listening. Thank you for how round for hosting us to the Segal team. And I hope you will have time to time in tomorrow. Thank you all very much and to all listeners again. Thank you for taking the time to listen. Thank you. Thank you guys. And I hope that we will have a great time. We need to have great artists and great work to see. We also need great audiences and people who are interested because ultimately it's about them to also see that we have to act, that we are called to act, to be part of change. It's not just happening on the stage, but something is changing that we all are called for to be part of the change we want to see. Thank you very much. And thank you again and have a great, great dinner, I hope. And in the remainder, this was important for us to hear, to hear from you. Bye-bye.