 Reassurance in UX is always the big thing. It's like making sure that the user knows that what the state is. But what they found is that by having that branded experience there, users just weren't dropping out of the funnel. What I've noticed with payments in e-commerce, there seems to be a challenge between developer interests and business interests and where they meet in the middle. Developers want to use the most latest tech but have problems convincing business to why to use it, whether it's offline patterns or whatnot. Would you feel about where business and our interests meet as it were? Yeah, I think it's a key thing. Developers do get excited about doing code and about solving these complicated technical problems. It can be a challenge to actually make sure that that translates into something that is going to help the business make money in the end as well. So something I've really been trying to focus on is helping developers with that communication step. How do you take the technical stuff that you want to do and actually frame it in a sense where you can say, this is going to affect our bottom line. This is going to make more money for us. This is going to increase conversion or this is going to drive repeat visitors to the site. So looking at things where it's like don't get super wrapped up in this amazing technical implementation but actually turn it into something that is going to help get you paid. Yes. Is there any techniques which developers really want to push for without necessarily make sense from a business UX point of view? Because I can see like having large images is there's a downside to it in the context of people who often are uploading stuff, adding products to e-commerce sites. They're not technical people necessarily. They're just getting on with their job. So how do you create a situation where performance becomes like a business? Interesting. And how do developers convince business that this is an important thing rather than this is just the coolest latest fad? Yeah. I think we've been pretty good with pushing the message of performance has an impact on your bottom line. There are loads of metrics out there that we've shown people multiple times that if you make people wait more than three seconds, you're going to lose 53% of your audience. Amazon did the one where they were showing for like each microsecond that you were waiting, you were losing a percentage of people away from the site, which is really nice but it's a very blunt tool. Performance cannot just be applied as this kind of one size fits all to every single solution. So a lot of it's about getting developers thinking in a more nuanced way about the problem that they're actually solving with performance and whether they're making a lasting solution as well. So where you're talking about images, we've seen this a couple of times where like developers will put the work in to fix the site as it currently is. So they'll go through them, make sure that the images are optimized, that they've got multiple versions hosted for appropriate devices and so on. But then as soon as the next sale rolls around like Black Friday comes in, suddenly it's like panic stations. So everybody just uploads all of the like raw catalog images again and it all just goes back to the way it was. So the key thing there is like it's not about getting those results right now, it's about how you actually work that into the process. For example, if you're a site that's like a classified style one like well like either eBay or a sort of Pinterest style thing, then when you're uploading images, you're probably already doing some processing at that point. Like you want to strip out the geo data from it so that it's not like telling the internet where I live. Those are the points where you should be looking at okay, in there can we actually put the image processing in so that we're also creating the optimized versions and that we include some kind of sign off flow so that product and marketing can actually take a look at those images and go yeah, we're happy that the optimizations haven't actually affected the quality levels that we care about. So there's any tools that sort of teams can actually use to implement to basically because it's not just about creating a great e-commerce site, but it's creating a process and tool set for the people who are actually working on the back end side of stuff all like just content management. Is there anything that developers can actually look at? I think that's probably the challenge here is that it's actually, it's pretty straightforward to do the one off optimizations and we can give you like a tool where we can say hey, this works like this just like just go ahead, run it and go. But building it into your process is a harder task so there's not necessarily kind of like your business yeah, can do this. It is one of the reasons that we're we're starting to do more things like talk with CMSs like Drupal, WordPress, Magento and so on to kind of say hey, can we actually look at where these things would fit in? Like is there a plug-in that can be used? So that's normally the the technique I suggest is like take a look at who's common to what you're doing already and try and steal the good ideas from them to something like that. Contextual to their process rather than trying to you know somehow hack in, opt in or whatever tool into there. Yeah, that's like a common problem that we sometimes run into is like I'll a spouse like hey, this is all like really good advice and people people want a single right answer. They just they kind of say it's like hey, what framework should we use or what library should we use? The answer is always so it depends. We I mean everyone wants the answer. It's like what's the meaning of life you know. So I mean we're talking about performance but there's also offline and offline is and the UX of offline is something I've been pushing but one of the things is that we've had to be honest with some of the people that we work with say okay offline is great, it's brilliant but it's not the one bullet and it doesn't fix everyone's problem and maybe there are cases where offline doesn't actually apply or work but it's that it's the new shiny thing and I think developers also have the same challenge of all right how do you convince businesses that offline is the way forward like what's the metric that you're using because we spoke about this before it's like the one metric is sales for e-commerce sites but how would you actually translate offline stuff in that sense like is it worth doing offline for everyone? I mean I think it depends on the business again because that's who the people who have often sign off and are not technical. I think it's one of those ones where I wish we could have gone back and stopped ourselves from using the term offline first because it really set the whole discussion as this kind of view of it as a binary state right here online or offline and it also made people think about it in terms of the feature again rather than the problem that they were solving with it so what I would really suggest is that you're not thinking about offline you're going through each stage in like your funnel or your path to purchase and you're thinking about how you can change that positively by weaving in aspects of like resilience to network connections or or total offline because there's a tendency when you demo stuff like this to you know switch your phone into airplane mode so that you can say hey I'm offline now but in real life that doesn't actually happen most of the time it's like you're going into the tube or you've just popped into a lift so in places like that some of the key things I focus on are either making it so that the user doesn't notice that their connection's been interrupted so those are things like if I'm adding to my basket that's an action where if it doesn't go through to the server you can actually capture that and just wait until you have a reliable connection like either looking at the network information or just pulling like a little heartbeat with your server and in those situations that's great because it's not like a high risk operation I don't have to do too much conflict resolution when I come back online it's like it's in my basket or it's not if it's not that's not the end of the world either then the other ones are actually like intentional offline and for things like that I consider that to be stuff like if I've saved a shopping list then you know what I'm on the tube home I might actually want to check that shopping list to see like oh yeah did I add the eggs to that or I'm looking through my order history those are great candidates for saving like onto your device because your order history doesn't change and it's something that you might actually want to refer back to if you're yeah like you're kind of trying to work out it's like ah did I buy my friend socks for their birthday last year it's like oh well I can just hop in I can check and it's one of those ones where your that then allows you to sell it not just in terms of like the robustness but also in terms of performance because if it's offline it's just available I think one of my favorite ones there for the robustness story is the Travaga one they implemented like a really simple offline fallback page so whenever your connection doesn't go through they just show you this error page at what error page is a sort of unfair name for it's actually like a little javascript game like one of those marble rolling ones through the maze and when I first saw it I was kind of like this is a developer's Friday afternoon project where they've kind of had some fun and puts like this novelty thing up there but what I came to appreciate when they shared the figures is that actually it's keeping people in the journey so when someone previously when someone would lose their connection or a request would fail they'd just drop out but now what happens is they see this branded Travago experience and a message telling them that hey your connection's down but we're going to try again in a little bit and it means that actually they were seeing way less people fall out of their funnel and it's just it's just one of these things where just having that branding in there it's small and it's simple but the effect that it has is just so much more significant what tends to happen in companies is that people hire eventually they realize that they can't do design without a designer so they hire a designer and then the designer says right it's hard for me to do design without the research findings and to really understand the context I'm working in so that's the kind of like pattern it tends to happen in it would be nice from my perspective if it worked the other way around