 Boom. What's up, everyone? Welcome to Simulation. I'm your host, Alan Sakyan. We are still on site at IndieBio's demo day, number eight. We are now going to be talking with Michelle Zew. Hello. Hi there. Thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. No problem. Really excited. She's the CEO of Tintorium. All right. So teach us about what you were just pitching on stage. Yeah. So here at Tintorium, we are making more sustainable indigo dye for the denim industry. So in a nutshell, we basically have created a completely nature-based process to combat what we like to call two-part problem with indigo. So problem number one, if I can get into it already, if you don't mind. Please. A chemical synthesis process. Indigo is heavily petroleum reliant. So to make it, it requires over 100 kilograms of indigo for every kilogram, sorry, 100 kilograms of petroleum for every kilogram of indigo produced. But on top of that, that chemical synthesis process also involves other toxic chemicals like formaldehyde and cyanide, like literally known poisons going into the production of this core ingredient for making your genes. So that's one problem. And then the second problem is indigo is kind of a unique dye. So it crystallizes really quickly in the presence of air and that makes it not water soluble. And so to actually apply it as a dye, you have to add in equal parts a water-polluting chemical reducing agent. And that stuff ends up in, you know, the waste streams polluting water sources all over Asia and it's really bad for the environment. So our solution basically addresses. You're about to get into the solution where there's so much to sell and pack with the problem. We're wearing genes right now. And like, I, we don't know about these things. I don't know about these things. These are really, we got to dig into the supply chain of things. Whoa. Okay. So how is it 100 kilograms of petroleum for a kilogram of indigo? Yeah. What? It's insane. So the key kind of, the key chemical in producing the indigo is this petroleum derivative called aniline. And it's kind of a inefficient process, right? So you need a lot of petroleum in order to make this aniline compound. And in fact, it's, you know, the petroleum reliance, right? Like non-renewable sources, that's part of it. And then also this aniline compound is known to be potentially carcinogenic. So it's just like all sorts of problems that goes into this chemical production process. And then the, what do we, so what are we doing with this indigo? So we get a kilogram of this indigo and then there's some, you said we're polluting water systems as well because we can't, because we have to get it on the actual gene material. Right. Are these, like, how do we dye the fabric? Is the fabric just like not dyed indigo when we I mean, it certainly is. So actually, I guess when you make your genes, let's take a look, a deeper dive into the supply chain, right? So you don't, you don't just, you know, put the dye in a bucket and then like take the full garment and just kind of like dip it in and get genes. Not at all. But I think what actually makes denim such a polluting and potentially problematic kind of area of fashion is the fact that its supply chain is so complex. So you need to take these cotton threads in the thread form and dye it at that form in order to form this kind of like ring dye effect. And then you weave these, you know, indigo dyed threads together in order to form the fabric. And then after you form the fabric, you can kind of like wash down the fabric in order to create kind of the faded effect. And because it has that kind of white core, you can fade it down and then it'll create the lighter blues, you know, kind of what it brings out the white, you know, colors in the inside of the thread. So that's, that's kind of taking you through how it happens. But of course, because you're kind of going through that complex production line now, you have a lot of indigo that's wasted. You have a lot of kind of the runoff from the, you know, both the water pollution in the, in the dye process as well as sort of the washing process afterwards. And where are we making most of the blue jeans in the world right now? Most of it is made in Asia. Yeah, most of it is made in Asia. There's actually no more dye mills here in the United States. No more dye mills in the world. Yeah, yeah, then it's it's pretty rough. I think a more interesting question actually is, where are we making most of the indigo in the world? Okay, yes. Where is that? And that is primarily in China. So over 90% of the world's indigo supply is made in China. And over 50% is made by just one producer alone. So it's a really consolidated market. So oligopoly. One is 50%. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so of course they can go, you know, very much like not environmentally regulated, right? And, you know, and then if it's called wonderful chemicals. Yeah. Of course it's called wonderful chemicals. Ironically, it's called. Wow, that's like the happy meal. This is ridiculous to get away with this kind of stuff. All right, okay, continue this. No, I mean, I yeah, the only other thing to add is just it's like even China, right, is like cracking down on environmental regulation. And so then the convenient move is like push over the border to Mongolia to make the production. Oh, yeah. Well, so wonderful chemicals are just like moving countries as the regulations get. Damn, this is crazy. Okay, so this is what's wrong. All right. So what is what are you doing that is right and sustainable and the future of blue jeans? Let's give it a go. Yeah. So our process, like I said, is is nature inspired. So we basically mimic a process that happens in plants. We are using bacteria, so completely sustainable sources and completely renewable sources, having bacteria feeding them with sugar and literally having those bacteria grow and secrete and indigo precursor. And then we apply this enzymatic treatment that then also bypasses the need for the reducing agent. And that's how we kind of apply our dye. Yeah. It's a little simplistic, but yeah. It's a little simplistic. It's just complex biology. So, okay, so bacteria seem like so many people have now sat down here and just been like, yeah, we, you know, add genes to bacteria and make them produce different things. And I'm just like, wow, bacteria. But this is like, these are billions of years old. And like, you know, humans are just like millions of years old. And it's just so interesting thinking about like what aspects of evolution we have yet to understand can help us live a more sustainable future, especially with bacteria and stuff. All right, so let's break this down. So what specific bacteria is it and whatever you can share with us? Yeah, sure. Well, it's E. Coli. It's very common kind of string of bacteria. Okay. And then what do you, is this in a bioreactor? Where are you doing this? Yep. So, yeah, we grow it in, you know, any sort of like range of scale of bioreactor. So in the last four months at IndieBio, we've actually, we started at like a 10 liter, which is about the equivalent of a large lab scale bioreactor size. And we actually ran our solution through a 300 liter bioreactor size. And so really scaled up our process in order to actually make the dyed threads and actually test our technology on an, on a real industrial machine. Yeah. Okay. And then what's going on in the bioreactors with the E. Coli bacteria? So what are you at? Like, how do you tell us about this process? Yeah, well, we actually even have a time lapse that you can see on our Instagram page of kind of the whole thing being performed. But perfect. I'll embed that right here for people to watch right now. No, totally. So, you know, you can basically watch it happen. The, the, you know, bacteria, they grow, right? And then they, as they grow, they just secrete this indigo precursor. Actually, some, you know, normal indigo also comes out. And then you can kind of see the blue color form before your eyes. And how do you find the specific E. Coli that can secrete indigo precursors? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that was based on a lot of the kind of existing literature. So I will say here, I'm not the, the scientists, the brilliant scientific mind behind this. I'm actually the, the business background. You speak so well about it. Yes, please. Thank you. My co founder, Tammy, is actually the, the one who invented it. So she invented. She just like found this E. Coli that can secrete indigo precursors. Well, she found the specific enzyme in the indigo plant that is actually the kind of like for the, the key sort of core of our technological innovation here in the metabolic pathway. Yeah. There's an enzyme in the indigo plant. And then that is what, how does that enzyme get used in the bioreactor with the E. Coli? So we basically combine the enzyme into, or we bring the enzyme into the E. Coli. And then that allows the, the bacteria to actually create the blue color. Create the blue color. Whoa. Okay. And then what is the process like with the secreting an indigo precursor? And then what do you, do you just like take that from the bioreactor? And then, yeah, tell us about that process. Yeah. So we, we take it that we, there's actually a good amount of purification work and concentration work that needs to be done in order to actually apply that sort of product as a dye. I will say I, we, that's one of the key areas that we still want to do a little bit more of, right? So when you get it out of the bioreactor, it's, you know, you have the precursor, but you also have some media in the, you know, in the, in the broth. And so it's funny, we didn't do a whole lot of purification. That's actually a major milestone of kind of like an work stream of work that we plan to do in the next couple months. We actually made our first hire over, yeah, yeah, who joined us about a week ago, and he brings industry experience in downstream processing. So he's going to be huge for helping us do that. But we didn't do a whole lot of purification work. We instead just like took it straight to the machine and, you know, applied or enzymatic treatment and then, you know, sort of like ran that process. And so what happened was because we had some media still in the, in the genes, our, our, our, our blue jeans, our prototype kind of like the red samples are actually slightly too green. So we are literally baking genes that are greener for the, for the world. They're not actually super green, but you know, there's like a slight tinge for anybody who's like super familiar with the denim industry. But that's why the downstream processing is going to be a major kind of work stream for us. Okay. So there's a broth that comes out and then you have to purify the broth for just indigo. Exactly. And then you can take that and then how does then that get applied to G? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So actually, so when we purify it out, we would purify our indigo precursor. Okay. And then that's what we would combine with our enzyme, which would basically form this solution for dyeing, which is called luco indigo. And so that's what you kind of put into the machine. And then as the machine runs, the indigo kind of forms onto the dye. Oh, okay. Okay. And then, then it's the similar process of the thread that then you thread together. And then that's how you make the actual exactly. So yeah, what comes out of that process would be all of the blue threads that you would need to make a denim fabric. Now I should also say that one of the one of the interesting things about the denim production too is that, you know, you need blue threads, but you also need white threads and you kind of crosshatch that together. And that's why when you yeah, when you let cut into your jeans, for example, some of the threads are white that are showing up. Yeah. Yeah. And that's kind of otherwise it'd be that just solid blue. Exactly. And you can see the white as well, the other colors in here. Right. Wow, just awareness level about yeah, understanding jeans in general is really important when you're, you know, at the store, really think in the supply chain about where the materials are sourced from how they're actually made, all this type of stuff. And then how about are you looking to just sell indigo is your thing or are you looking to literally make like a gene product line? That's a great question. So our business model is actually going to be in phases. So one of the key things that we are, you know, sure of right now is consumers don't know a lot about this. And, you know, we can't, we can't just rely on brands to tell the story, right? We have to also be able to tell the story ourselves and really start to raise that awareness and build the consumer demand. So to do that, we're going to start actually by launching our own very limited line of jeans. And that's going to kind of get the conversation going about sustainable denim, right? High B star betrash, right? 200 pairs. It's all you get per city. Good, good. Yeah, yeah. People are like, I got them. Look at my Instagram. Exactly. You can have the, you know, exclusive edition of Tintorium jeans. I'm a sustainable person. I support sustainable clothing. He's marketing strategies. Okay, cool. So that's gonna be the first phase. But then of course, right now, you know, we've already gotten really overwhelming response from the denim industry, I think brands are already pretty eager to partner with us. So then our next move would be co branding lines with jeans, you know, with existing denim manufacturers, starting in kind of the premium segment, where, you know, we can really start to incorporate that technology and start to tell that story. But of course, in the long term, our vision is, yeah, we want our technology in this way of, you know, making and applying denim indigo dye to happen for every single pair of jeans out there. So you're going to obsolete wonderful chemicals out of business. Absolutely. If they can get 50% market share, we can get 50% market share. Yeah, we're running through a new future. It's that we have to start paying attention to these sorts of environmental concerns. Now we have to do things differently. So we think that, you know, there's this future where that kind of, you know, wasteful toxic production just doesn't have to be allowed anymore. Whoa. I wonder, this is the similar concept, more and more young people being born into the world that become more and more aware of the supply chain processes about how to make things more sustainable. And then just unleashing more biotech that we still haven't really picked an uncovered like this indigo enzyme added to E. Coli and like, what, you know, and so do you think like cost wise, are we talking like right now it might be, you know, pretty expensive compared to what, you know, wonderful chemicals are doing. But yeah, down the line, like in terms of just price over time, you're you're thinking like, obviously, you don't need 100 kilograms of petroleum. Yeah. Yeah. So these are the this because that costs a lot of money to like extract that. Yeah, that's true. I mean, the chemical process is cheap. That's the only way they're able to do what they're, you know, currently doing at such at such large scales. Right. Yeah, I mean, I think what I would say is the dye, you know, process or at least just sort of the dyeing component in terms of the cogs of making a pair of jeans is actually, you know, really small. And so there's a good amount of we think sensitivity, you know, or or desensitivity into, you know, in terms of your willingness to to pay more for some more sustainable ingredients. Right. And when you're talking about like the core ingredient, most visible ingredient in your jeans, if we scaled up our process right now, we would actually, we could actually be making our our indigo dye for $3 more per pair of jeans. That's it. And so it's like, you know, yeah, sure, current, you know, indigo production process is probably something like a couple cents per pair of jeans. And that's what we would aim for more in the long term. But I think the point we're trying to make here is that right in consumers eyes, if we're really not that bad. Exactly. We were really just, you know, especially if you're talking about $50 pairs of jeans, $200 pairs of jeans, right? Like who wouldn't want to pay a couple of dollars more for a better made pair of jeans? So we're sensitive to the ecological factor. And I think we're, yeah, I think we'd be desensitive to the $3 price increase if the price of jeans was already like $50 or $100. Exactly. Whatever. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And the second phase too, I see the partnerships and stuff. This is cool stuff. And then where, okay, so where are you, so you just did first hire. So what else do you, are you looking for right now? You're raising around leaving IndieBio as well. So what's the round? What are you looking to do with it? Yeah. Yeah. So we're raising a two and a half million dollar seed round. We are, primarily, that's going to get us about a year and a half or two years of runway in order to launch our first line of jeans. That's kind of the big goal. To do that, we're going to need some strain engineering purification work, of course, like I talked about. I think that strain engineering work is going to be very much ongoing. The purification work is going to be sort of like a, you know, a deep dive first development so that we can then, first priority so that we can then prototype a lot of different fabric concepts with shades that are, you know, established and standard in the indigo and denim industry. And then, you know, scale up to 10,000 liters with that process so that we can then release our first line of jeans. Nice. Okay. Yeah. You have the roadmap down. I love it. Yeah. I love it. That's what, that's what we need. I love it. Okay. Cool. I think we did a, yeah, I think we did a good job covering like Tinctorium. Good job. Like there's a lot of good stuff that you guys are doing. I'm very proud of you. Thanks for coming on, Michelle. Thanks so much. Thank you. Huge shout out to all you guys for tuning in. We greatly appreciate it. Love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode. Also, do check out the links below to Tinctorium. Check out the links below to IndieBio as well support the artists, the entrepreneurs, the organizations around the world that you believe in support simulations so you can keep doing cool things like coming on site to IndieBio for interviews. And also, share more content like this with your friends, your family, coworkers, people online on social media. Talk more about these things, the supply chains around all the products that we buy every single day. Really think about it deeply and inspire children to think about it deeply and change the systems for a better ecological future. Go and build the future, everyone. Manifest your dreams into all we love you very much. We'll see you soon. Peace.