 All the meeting to order. Councilor Cohen isn't here, but I expect her to hear any moment. Just a word on meeting logistics. If you're joining remotely, please change your name on your display so that it shows your first and last name. And I will try to be more diligent about asking everyone to state their name when they step up to address the council because I heard some. I wasn't on top of that fully last time, and I think everyone's entitled to know who's speaking. Anyone who's going to address the council, either for general business or an appearance or otherwise, you're not entitled to speak until you're recognized by the chair. And then we ask your comments to be limited to two minutes and counselor date. We'll be assisting us with timekeeping. First item on the agenda is to approve the agenda. We have one change, right? And that is item 10, Arts Commission presentation will not be taking place, taking place tonight. We'll reschedule that for a subsequent meeting. Any other? We'll do that when we get to the consent agenda. Anyone aware of any other changes to the agenda? If not, we can proceed to general business and appearances. This is an opportunity for any member of the public to address the council on any topic that is not on tonight's agenda. And again, please identify yourself and keep your comments to two minutes. Yes, sir. Anyways, good evening. I'm Maurice Martino, 6th Gribner Street. I'm just called stopping in again to ask in terms of hunting on the land up at the old Elk's property as Turkey hunting starts May 1st and deer hunting obviously in the fall. However, what I wanted to make people aware of, I mean, just the Saban's pasture I counted 23 deer. They're going to wreak havoc on flowers, everything, anything that grows as it does. So I just wanted to put my two bits worth into again being allowed to hunt on the property up there. Okay. Thank you. And have you been participated in participating in the planning process and responding to the surveys? I've not received anything in my email. Anyways, I haven't been asked to participate. It was mentioned to me before I said I was available, but no one's contacted. It's all on the city's webpage. And so if you want to be heard on the planning process for country club road property, that's where you go. Thank you, Stephen. Steve Whitaker, Montpelier. It all being on the city's website is is a lame excuse. That's not outreach. I want to point out that there's not a complete packet for the last three meetings. Some we can't manage to print a legible copy of the agenda materials. They're chopped off where they're you can't make you can't read the complete sentences. And I've showed them to the assistant city manager on the last several occasions. Presuming it would get corrected. But still again tonight, you can't read the chopped off portions of the packet. So you don't have a complete packet available for the public. The dust. I got a little excited. We could to go. We could go. I saw people actually with brooms sweeping the sidewalks. And lo and behold, they sweep it right into the tight corners of the where the street sweeper can't reach. So the depth of the inches in some places, the depth of the sand that's blowing through the streets, causing a whole lot of people respiratory distress is it's I can't I can't make excuses for those folks, you know, it's, you know, we can get away with knocking down light post after light posts, but sweeping the streets to where the streets we won't pick it up. But it's just really the level of services that we're paying for and that y'all are not policing to make sure we're getting our money's worth is really absurd. I'm not going to stick around for lack of confidence in your process for the homelessness stuff, but I was made aware that they were told in no uncertain times, there wasn't going to be a shelter in Montpelier and they left that out of the report. So the thumb or the sandbag on the scale, the corruptness of the city just defies defies Oh, one more thing. I see I saw a meeting warning you need to direct your staff or your appointees that even after Donna Bates term lapsed day before town meeting, she's still pretending to call a meeting for CV PSA for tomorrow night to try to wrap up, you know, to complete the death spell list now that she tried to enforce while it's in litigation, you cannot close the CV PSA while the liabilities are still open. It's still a litigation. You need to direct Justin as your other delegate to not attend, not pretend to attend a farce false meeting, not legally called by an ex chair. She's term limited. She can't be back on. I just don't know why y'all don't pay attention to this stuff. Thank you. Anybody else in the room who is seeking to be recognized? And is there anyone online who is seeking to be recognized? I'm not seeing any hands up. Okay, we'll move to the next item on the agenda, which is the consent agenda. Sorry. Thank you. Now there's a request to remove certain items from the consent agenda. Okay. I asked to remove the items for the intersection for conversation on the regular agenda and also just the Grout road bridge, just to take that off the consent agenda. Okay. Thanks. Okay. Great. Would chair would entertain a motion with regard to the rest of the consent agenda. Is there a second? Second. Any discussion? All those in favor indicate by saying I, I and all those opposed. The consent agenda is passed with the exception of items D and G. I crossed over the D and G. Okay. I. Oh, yep, you're right. You see, I crossed it out. Can't read it. Okay. So, Kelly, do you have something you can tell us about either of these? But we get the DPW, of course, director here to comment on these items and give you a briefing. Oh, can you hear me now? That better. Okay. Kurt, Monica, the DPW director is going to brief you on these items. Okay. So, yeah, start with the very main intersection. So there was a study done several years ago on the intersection. People probably know that there are times are difficult to turn out of Berry Street on the main street. So out of that scoping study, you know, options were evaluated around about or a signalized intersection and it was the signalized intersection that was selected. The city bonded $500,000 for the improvements, which includes the engineering work. The item for approval tonight is the engineering that is full design of the intersection, which includes coordination with the other two traffic lights adjacent, the one at Memorial in Maine and that state in Maine. And it also includes a preemptive ability for the rail crossing that's in that intersection. So if the rail is coming through, you know, those lights would go red, keep people from getting on the tracks. So I'm not sure if you had specific questions, but this is specifically for getting that design work done for planning on going to construction next summer. Yeah, I think because I wasn't along for the earlier conversations, you entered one, which is what's the total budget for the project. So this $94,000 approval is the first step. That's right. The rule of thumb historically has been $250,000, roughly for intersection construction. This one's a little more complicated because of the rail and everything. And costs have gone up a bit in the last couple of years. I'll do an inflation and material pricing. But we're, you know, comfortable that we'll be within budget for this. And then the only thought is just in terms of our priorities, in terms of public works, is this really the next project? It's one of the many. We have a lot of projects I'm going for this summer and next year. But yeah, I was identified as a priority due to traffic issues there. All right, thanks. And we spent a lot of time in public meetings to look at the different possibilities for how to make that intersection work. And is it the only failed intersection in the city? Is it a failed intersection by state standards? You know, I don't know that it's classified as failed, but as a low level of service. So it's not functioning great. Donna. Well, at the time, I should build this on the city council. We first started talking about this and she commuted regularly through Berry Street and complained about how long she waited. Pedestrians, especially have complained about it. And we did a lot of public outreach in one of the town meetings. We had a map out there with the consultants and had kids as well as adults. Pinpoint, what were the biggest issues for walking? And wow, Berry Street driving. Drivers don't feel safe with pedestrians. Pedestrians don't feel safe with cars. And then we have bicycles in there. And so that's the other part is that shared path connecting with both sides of Main Street, I was all for a roundabout and got. I lost I lost the argument because one, the railroad didn't allow it, but also the expense because you really need roundabouts on both sides of it. And so I would like you to expand on the light because it's more than just time, it's a very sensitive light system we're putting in. Yes. Right. And so that's the part where the coordination comes in. Sometimes called adaptive technology where basically it expedites traffic flow by sort of recognizing the traffic coming from the nearby intersection and changing its timing in order to facilitate improved traffic flow. But like Donna said, there is it is also a pedestrian concerns. So it will be a push button pedestrian crossing. They are much like the main and state intersection as well. And Grout Road now. Yep. So Grout Road is a road out towards the end of Elm Street. Service is a small number of houses. But we've been working on this project for several years. One of the homes there has a failed well and they're unable to drill a new well because the bridge isn't structurally sound enough to get a drill rig across it. We have a structures grant from Stavramont for $175,000. That we've had that for two years. As we work through design on this project, it expires at the end of this calendar year. So if we don't move forward, you know, we jeopardize using that grant money. The project did come in over over the engineer's estimate. We hired a consultant to do the design and the estimate for us. The balance of the gap is about 120,000. And we're going to we plan to pay for that and working with the finance department. We were able to determine that the money for the appraisal was booked both in the general fund and in the capital plan. And that's $129,000. So the plan is to utilize that funding and in the capital fund, that budget budget amount, the capital fund to close the gap. So I think it was mostly a financial question. We had two bids, they were both very close within like $30,000. So we don't feel like the contractors bids are out of scale because they were so close to each other. So it's just that, you know, the cost of construction has really drastically gone up and in a very short time, faster than we've seen that I've ever seen really. Was there any other further questions on that? Thank you. I wasn't participating at all in when this first came up. It's been around for a while, and I don't want to take up a lot of time on it, but because it was at the top of the agenda and because I'm sort of new at this, I spent a little more time looking at it than I probably should have. And I just had some questions about it because even though the bids are close, they're unusual. The lowest bid is $120,000 over the other bid on four items. And so it just makes me wonder, and some of them are commodities like steel and concrete really. So I understand there's pricing differences. I participated in bids, not on commercial work, but I understand that there's differences and I read the bid analysis and I understand that people try to balance their bid, they front load. They do a lot of things to adjust, but it's such a large difference. And the market is so volatile. I wonder if there's a contractual solution, like a cost plus with a guaranteed maximum instead of a fixed price. I mean, we know there are contingencies in there. And if they don't arise, we might say if, well, the winning bidder was $120,000, $100,000 high on three items. So I had to make that up. And then the additional $20,000 that he's under the other guy. So I understand where that might come from. But a different structure in the contract might keep the contractor happy and save us money. Is it possible to do? Have we ever done anything like that? It's not an uncommon contract in commercial work. Yeah, I've only done one guaranteed maximum price contract. That was for the wastewater plant, the phase one project that we just completed. It's a little bit, it's really kind of too late to do it on this project. We did sit down with the contractor and look to items that we could remove. So this was bid as like a, what we call a unit, unit price contract. Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. So every, and it's the V trans model. So the state of Vermont kind of has this model of the spec book and that's what the engineer followed. So they outlined those specific bid items based on state specifications. So we did go through when we met with a contractor, we open bids. When we looked at items that could be removed from the contract and they did opera up. No, I think it was 30 plus thousand dollars of savings to the city that of items that we could remove. But as far as renegotiating a guaranteed contract, you know, I don't think you can, you know, one, we don't really have the time the contractor and level out of other, there's a lot of other work out there. So we don't really have time to rebid it, but that would really change the entire contract with with the contractor. So I think you'd have to do that. The terms of the bid. Yeah, it really would. So it's kind of a drastic change. I don't think we could do that at this point, but you know, it is a good model for certain types of contracts. Yeah. Just one other question. The, the temporary bridge was a was a big difference in price. I think it was. I'm not sure exactly 50, $56,000 difference in a, in a temporary bridge. Is there a, is there an explanation for that. That makes sense. Yeah, well, if you look at the engineer's estimate compared to the bid prices from both contractors. That was the biggest difference for sure. Yeah, he bid 50 and they bid 236 and 190 something or 180 something. Right. So the engineer estimated 50,000 and the bids came in closer to 200,000. So that was by far the biggest difference. You know, that is the bulk of the gap between what we have for funding allocated and the bid prices that came in. So we, we did think about taking that item out, but it adds a lot of challenges to construction and that they were planning to use the temporary bridge to move equipment back and forth. They would have, you know, basically lock up an excavator on one side of the bridge and not be able to use it. And in addition to that, the homes would be out of their houses that no access for 90 days, which really seemed excessive. So we tried to make that work, but it just didn't seem like a viable option. I think the engineer just really underestimated the item is what it comes down to. Yeah, no, it sounds like things have changed in the temporary bridge business. Good. You know, I didn't expect that you'd be able to make many of these changes, but if prices continue to be this volatile on projects we might we might consider an alternative or at least offering that as an option. Thanks. Okay. Okay, any other questions? Is there a motion to approve those two items? So moved. Any further discussion? All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed. And items B and I from the consent agenda are approved. Okay. Next up we have. Oh, yes, I have a procedural projector. The screen is showing just individual names. Can we have the audience see the same grouping that we see? Is that possible? I think. We'll see. We'll try to work on that. Okay. Thank you. There must be way to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Okay, we have a set of appointments. Item six, seven and eight are appointments on the art commission, the MEAC energy advisory committee and the tree board. And I see a number of people in the room for. For those. So I suggest we recognize anyone who's here for any of these items have them address the council and then we go from there. Okay. Good evening. I'm John still. Never. I'm not sure how it happened, but I would love to continue to be on the tree board. I've been on it since the beginning. And still have a few more years in me before I actually expire. And unfortunately, I am the chair of the tree board and somehow it escaped me that three last one of us was an expired. So we'll work on that one next time. Thank you. And so my name is John act elastic. I'm also an expired member of the tree board and I'm looking for reappointment because I enjoy doing the work. Great. Thank you. Okay. And I don't know. Is there anyone here from any of the, for any of the other boards or anyone online wanting to speak who's applied for any of the other boards. Sure. Hi, this is Julia Leopold. And I'm applying for appointment for Montpelier energy advisory committee. Great. Thank you. Thanks. It looks like nobody else is here. So council, what's your pleasure. We, this is a matter that can be taken up in executive session, but it's not mandatory that the court, we would entertain a motion. Yeah. Just, if I'm reading it right, every one of these have room for all of these people to be appointed. So there's no space issues that we're wrestling with. I would move. Can I just move the slate, or should I read everyone? I would move the slate of appointees to the public arts commission, the energy advisory committee and the tree board. Second. Is there any, and is that enough for you, Jonathan? And it's any discussion. All those in favor indicate by saying aye. Aye. Opposed. Okay. Yes. I just want the new members of the council to know that John and John have been our heroes as far as our elm trees got us out in front of it and have handled it. It's just been marvelous. Thank you gentlemen. I'm sorry. Yeah. I got your attention. Okay, next item on the agenda is, is fireworks. We have a presentation from a member of the community and then we can have a discussion about what, if anything, the council wants to do about it. Thank you. My name is Karen. I did submit packets everybody. I hope you had the chance to review them because I met you guys for and sort of gave you a summation. So I was just hoping you had a chance to review the environmental impact, the impact on human life, animal life. If you can ask me or I'm not really sure how these proceedings go. Once I've submitted the information that I wanted you to have. So I'll, you just tell me what to do or just sit down and listen or I don't know how this works. Thank you. Well, if there's anything you want to see here, this is would be the time to do it. Thank you very comprehensive. I didn't, I didn't include all the stories of the emails I had gotten from people in the community who had animals killed because they had tried to escape, you know, from the noise. Several emails from veterans with PTSD who suffered through those evenings and thought they were the only ones. A lot of a lot of responses from the community, really saying it's time to look at this and revisit this practice. If I could. Yeah. Is it is it's the fourth of July celebration specifically that you're fireworks fireworks, not the celebration of course not I mean we all want to celebrate, but it's the fireworks specifically that are problematic. Fireworks on permitted fireworks are illegal, I think in Vermont and in the city. I don't really know. Yeah, I'm talking about the shows that appeal your funds permitted. Yes, fireworks and do the conditions that you described in the materials you submitted. They also occur in the. I mean there's certainly my neighborhood there's a lot of illegal fireworks happening. Is it is it the same. I think the impact is different if you look at if you look at the displays like from national life. That's pretty significant versus someone that sets off a matter of firecrackers. I mean the impact is different. I mean but it's, it's the big shows with the smoke and the chemicals in the smoke heavy metals in the smoke. The overbearing explosive sounds, you know, fireworks are kind of annoying but they're not as overwhelming as a as a show that overshadows the entire town. I think the impact is not lovely with the matter fireworks but it's not the same as as the massive shows that we have used twice a year. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Is there. Is there a motion to take action we could, if we wanted to initiate ordinance adoption process, but that, of course, public hearings and all that so it's a matter of is there a motion to do that. There. There is such a thing as a quiet firework. It's not actually silent. But it's been adopted by other municipalities in the US and actually around the world. I wonder if we might try that. I mean it changes the profile sound certainly. I'm not sure what it does for the other issues. But it might be worth a try. We might try laser light show too, instead of like fireworks. It might be another option. I don't know the budget. Do you have the budget for that. Well, we're having discussion with the council level right now. You know, I just point out that the fireworks are not something the city does the fireworks are something that Montpelier alive does for the Independence Day. Celebration. And so these are certainly discussions that could go to Montpelier alive. So I'm on their board. So if you want me bring this discussion back. Well, I could, or if there's another way of doing this, you can always the city council can advise me, but I am on their board. Okay. Contacts people that have contacted me last day or two since this has come up. Nicely indicated that they like the fireworks. It's a couple of times a year and not every year. There were no years fireworks this year. I think National Life does it for their do good best on occasion and the Mountaineers do some ball games. That's my understanding of the scale of what happens in Montpelier. So I like them. I'm inclined to leave it as is. Yeah, having two teenage kids who are very, very concerned about environments and other living beings. I prefer not having them. But of course, it's, as you said, it's a, maybe it's a public discussion matter. Okay. Can we simply recommend to the, to the folks who, who, I mean, it's not a city function. What are, what are our, what are we able to do? Are we able to recommend to the folks who do sponsor and plan the displays that they consider an alternative. And you could make a motion if you wanted to and see if, see if there's support for it or any member can say, can contact them directly and say, have you thought of this, have you thought of that? Yes. Well, I do wonder if the next step could be having Helen talk with Montpelier alive and just see like bring these issues to their attention and see if there's interest in alternatives. I mean, if we could avoid a whole ordinance process, knowing that as Tim said, it's really not very many people who are like putting on big firework displays. So if we could have some conversations, we might be able to see are there, there's the quieter ones, like are there environmentally more friendly ones or their alternatives altogether. So I think maybe that option would be my preference is have some conversations first. Require a motion. Kerry, what are you going to say? I'm sorry. Can Montpelier alive board in mind? Can we invite her to our. Okay. She's asking if the Montpelier alive board could invite you to one of their meetings. And the answer is yes. Yeah, again, I don't know what will happen, but I just want to bring you and them together. Then it will be a better discussion, only me, like trying to explain what I understood from your document. It will be better if you were there and just, you know, explain everything. It will be better communication. Yeah, whatever the Montpelier alive board wants to do. Totally fine. Yeah, I've also heard just from a couple of people directly about this who expressed that they would like to keep the fireworks that they enjoy the fireworks. And so I just want to doesn't sound like we're talking about taking a vote, but I want to be clear that the city council is not directing Montpelier alive to do anything in particular. So I think that we're, you know, the idea has come up that perhaps you could speak with Montpelier live who does many of the fireworks shows and talk to them about alternatives. There will be other fireworks shows that happen in town. So that wouldn't cover everything but that could be a good place to start. Yeah. Oh, good. There are different people. Yeah. Different different executive director. I'm not hearing emotion. So I think we move to the next item on the agenda, which is the follow up on the homelessness report. Kelly return during this over. People have hands raised. I'm sorry I didn't see that we can have hands raised that want to speak about the issue. Okay, I wasn't seeing your hands. Sorry. Peter Kellman. Yes, Peter Kellman. I live in Mountain View street. Very close to national life. I thoroughly support Karen Henry's asking for the city and the various organizations that are doing this to consider alternatives. I don't think a few people saying that they like fireworks, even if one of them is Tim Heaney constitutes a reason for keeping them. Karen has provided a very persuasive case. And even leaving aside the pets for the moment. We have veterans who have PTSD who are severely and adversely affected by this. I think that consideration should Trump skews the expression that some are kids like fireworks. Also, the people who like fireworks ought to have a chance to see some alternatives laser shows and low impact shows. They've never seen them. So ask me saying I like fireworks saying, yeah, I like milk in the morning or I like to have my coffee in the morning. What are the alternatives? I think we should take we should really provide some alternatives and then see then ask people, hey, what did you think about that compared to the fireworks. I'm kind of disturbed by the tenor of this conversation. I think that if you don't want to make a decision as a about an ordinance because I agree ordinances are paying the neck. I think there ought to be a very clear discussion with all your organizations with the mountaineers with national life with with. And maybe even form a little, you know, working committee to look at alternatives. And I think the city council should say we want to look at all terms. We want to see whether that makes sense. Thank you. Thank you, Peter. Katie trouts. Hi, yeah, thanks. Um, so I think it's a strong. Oh, hello. Who's your identity by yourself. Oh, I'm Katie trials with Montpelier alive the executive director new executive director. Um, I appreciate people bringing up the concerns about fireworks I on one hand completely agree. I do just want to mention that we have looked into alternatives. And I don't think people understand fireworks costs $12,500 for one single event, which we have managed to afford as Montpelier alive. And a, we looked into a drone laser light show as an alternative and it cost over $45,000 for a single light show it's not something that you can like keep the drones and do it again and again. And so we are looking into alternatives. They seem really unaffordable. There might be ways that we can work on finding funding, but I just want everyone to be aware of that we're looking into it and it seems like, at least for the next year, kind of impossible. We also have to plan our fireworks about. I don't know, eight to 12 months in advance to reserve them. So, if there is a consideration of a ban, I just want to make sure people know that this July third we've already paid a deposit on. And like I said, that's $12,500 for a single show. So, I just wanted to provide that information and make sure people know that we're looking into alternatives. And our single show a year is very popular and maybe we can just do that, but we are keeping the concerns in mind. Thank you. Thanks, Katie. Katie, do you have any knowledge or opinion on the financial impact if we were to not allow the fireworks to be held on the evening of July 3. In terms of the downtown and and how that would affect our crowds or in terms of our. Oh, exactly. Just as an ongoing thing, it seems to me that the fireworks are what keeps the crowds down on on the State House lawn, right up until the fireworks display. Yeah, our event annually and we did some research on this and hired a company to try to investigate how many people come to our event there over 10,000 people annually, who come to July 3. And you can imagine how that's an economic driver to the downtown. That's the parade and fireworks show together. I strongly feel that there should be some sort of show that could continue those crowds coming together on the State House lawn. It may not be fireworks but like I said, there's, there's a cost to that. Thanks, Katie. Linda burger. I just had a quick question is my pillar alive received some funding from the city correct. Yes. I appreciate Katie's presentation about the thoughtfulness that's going into this by that group so thank you very much. Thank you. Okay, folks. One more hand I'm sorry. Oh, you're just by using your Audrey from it. This might sound like a silly question, but is there any way to have fireworks. With just the color and not the really loud sound because, you know, being a former special educator we had kids coming from Bosnia, who, you know, experienced, you know, like the horrible, you know bombing and loud sounds and I think it was addressed to PTSD. These were the things that really affected people and it affects, you know, wildlife and pets are these hugely loud sounds so it might be a silly question but can we have just color and which people really like without the really loud sound. Just a question. Apparently there are some that are not as loud. So I think that's going to be something that could be something that my pillar alive looks into. Yes, so since Kate is here. Then she will follow up right. Well, you can talk to Kate. Yeah. If I have to do anything afterwards or since she's here, and she heard everything and she responded. So that's her responsibility to follow up. It's nobody's responsibility to follow up unless you know the council isn't telling anybody to do anything. Okay, got it. Thank you. Okay, I want to make sure I'm not missing anyone who has their hands up and I'm not seeing anyone. Thanks. Thanks for coming. Okay, next up. Homelessness report follow up. So in your packets you received staff recommendations from the park provider presentation at the last meeting. Excuse me and so the next step is really to take a look at that and determine what you would like to do so there are three areas that were made for accommodation within the report they include the housing plan, the hub shelter, and the education plan. And so staff has provided individual recommendations for each of those items in the memo and so we can take them one by one or we can have a general discussion, whatever your pleasure is. But ultimately I think what it boils down to just in quick summary is determining what the city's role will be and how you would like to draft staff to proceed next. Once you give us kind of a high level summary of what is in the report. I said the members of the public. Yes, can do. So, from a high level, what's in the report is we'll be looking to review the housing plan. So the planning commission is currently working on the city plan. And Parker advisors had recommended that some of that plan include items related to the unhoused. And then the next up within those recommendations was related to a hub or a shelter and selecting a location maybe within the city that would provide shelter but also provide services as sort of a hub model with nonprofits and state entities providing services all in one spot. The last item was outreach, making sure that people know where to go to get services and what's available to them. Any questions from members of the council. We go through them one through the response item item by item there. What five or six five or six line items. There's three generally the yes. Yeah, and there are several sub in the response that Bill Frazier sent us there are several subsets, we can we can do that. Okay, great. So the under the under the housing plan. There are two critical recommendations made by Parker advisors one, one on the creation of more subsidized housing. And one, one on removing barriers to subsidized housing, so that in the future, fewer people are become housing vulnerable. And I just wonder if we if we need to. I just wanted to make sure that those two elements which I which I think are in fact critical are part of the housing plan that that is on on going, as I understand it. I mean, it, it became more more important just in the last week or so because the, I noticed that the the Isabelle circle project has completely changed. I mean it was, it was originally billed as a kind of a plan development with with you know it would fill fill the missing middle. It was called with cottages, I think 50 or 5654 colleges. And now it really looks like a sort of standard subdivision with 30 lots that are going to be sold to people who can afford to buy them and afford to build on and while we need that in Montpelier we also need housing that is somehow subsidized and not just for the first buyer but for subsequent buyers and we we didn't have any control at Isabelle but we do at country club road which is not specifically under discussion here but it's, you know, it's in line for some decisions about housing. So it seems important that that we make that recommendation that subsidized housing be be considered as part of the plan along with you know the variety and the types of housing and sizing and so on. We're talking in the master plans. I guess I think I think I am I mean, I think that's what's, what's being revisited is the housing element of the city plan. I think the entire master plans and the works to be correct. And Kelly do you know the timeline. I don't but I can find out. I know. Tim the master plan has changed language to city plan. Okay, I want to revert to master plan. Yeah, city plan is the master plan. So you know, but that is the plan we're talking about. Yes, that is a plan we're talking about it's in the, it's in the development process within the planning commission. It's been going on for a couple of years now. So I think they're planning on bringing it to the council this year sometime. Well, these are the same wonderful three points that they presented first time. I'm still looking at people like Tim and others is where there's a property. I don't think we can assume another way taking on this burden, or that that Sam Good Samaritan will have it the churches are having so much problems. They're backing off. I would really like us to find a property we can zoom in on. I mean, if we could find a property owner that will meet the city become a partner with it. I keep looking at that yellow house on Main Street, the old funeral home and say, Oh, just be, that would be great. How do we, how do we make that happen? We start knocking at all these property owners we go through the city's list. Help me, Tim, as a realtor or anyone else. I'm really, I want to initiate a beginning with real property and put something in place. I can't wait for Elm, the property country club property. We need to do something now about this hub, especially if I might just so the council should be getting the city plan in the summer or fall. Okay. And then there's a process of us holding public hearings before we got to carry. Yeah, the housing committee has seen some preliminary drafts of the housing portion of the city plan. And so they've got a lot of work to do, but I feel that these concerns that South has brought up are being taken seriously in this planning process. Yeah, so one of my questions was about the public input process and it sounds like there will be one at some point, maybe closer to the middle than the end but I haven't written off the rec center myself which was the recommendation of the of the Parker advisors. I know we in in in Bill Frazier's response he talks about undertaking another architectural study I mean we we've done three architectural studies since 2016 we as I understood I don't know who's who's looking at the building now but I think we're reviewing the asbestos content. Not sure who so that that's really for four reviews of the building. I think we know what's wrong with the building. And, and the fact is we have to mitigate that building whether we tear it down or leave it vacant or use it. So, you know we're not we're not throwing that money away if we mitigate it. I mean, we, the plan that the advisors that park advisors came off with didn't even require complete mitigation. So I think, I mean I'm, I'm not ready to write off the rec center I mean I think, I think it's a, it's built like a tank, it has some problems that need to be solved accessibility being one of them. There's a mitigation of hazardous materials being another. But we're also going to be. There's a there's a challenge of dual use over the next few years but it's going to be a few years probably three to five years before there's a new rec center if there is. So I think we have. We have a good location, we just, we just need to take some action. Set aside $425,000, and if I could see, we've already spent some of that on consultants I don't know for closer to 399 at this point that we could spend on either the hub with services, or I'll bet you the main 55 Barry Street is going to be a lot more than a half a million bucks and mitigation of asphalt. Asbestos is just immensely, enormously expensive. So that's my bind is not that that building is not there but now that we've discovered it's worse than we thought to put the money there and not do anything that's immediate that could be like the hub, then I get. That's my priority. And I agree with Donna that and sell I think that the rec still needs to be on the table and considered for this for the consultants, and it's something we've got it's as an asset we have we need to look at it study it and know what we can do. And there, you know, I can come up with another handful of properties around town that we could also approach. And the $400,000 one million fees in our businesses that's a good down payment but yeah it's not going to be enough to do the whole thing. But I don't know that my player has to be picking up the whole tab on this either and that's part of the discussion is, what's our role in this process and it seems the state should be involved, this is a bigger issue than just But we need to get going on these properties and looking at the options for this next year is the homeless task force is that something they're doing or is that. I think we should set up a committee and you should be chair and really go after another property. Short term committee or really focus homeless. I mean is that it would seem like it must be right up there. You guys are not. Yeah, let's talk. I mean, mostly just echoing. I mean my, my priority is that we are locking something in as a city that we're not like, I think we should have the rec center on the table I think we should be looking for plan B's in case that like the timeline for the whatever doesn't happen or whatever doesn't match up with this winter, but I don't want to be in the position where we're coming up with a partnership yet again that then next year we have to renegotiate a new partnership like I want to be looking for a long term solution or something that at least is like a medium term solution that's getting us to a long term solution that is not like. And then next year we have this conversation like oh no there's a crisis again that the churches and like part of going, you know to some private landowners it concerns me a little that we're getting back into that of like finding a new partner that then we'll do it. Find it's hard and not want to do it again. And so I just I really wanted the city to be committing to just finding something that's a multi year at least kind of prospect. I'm sorry. You probably need to have that my closer to you. Okay, I will try again project my voice. So I am serving on homelessness task force as a city council representative and Carol of, I think I'm right right sell the name. Yeah. They have some alternative plans. So if you if you want to see them we can share she shared like a two page ideas with us. We can share it with you and you because they already told told told about this what we can do with direct building and they have some ideas using the funds. Just create some kind of short term solutions, because Tim was asking about the test was that's why I just want to explain so they have some ideas, and we have to bring them to the discussion. And will that be ready to make a presentation say at our next meeting. I can ask them and I can share the two page document. They sent to us with the rest of the city council. I might jump in really quickly here. So, part of the reason for the park advisor report was to kind of address some of these items. And I think what would be really helpful is to get guidance on whether or not you would like city staff to fully vet those costs so those items that might be identified by the homelessness task force through Carolyn rid path, may or may not be the full committees position, it could be. But I think we would want to go from the park advisor report, and then sort of maybe take a look at the location itself, and maybe sort of identify those items and see what the costs would be. So, part of the reason that we would like to do as we've been preparing for this conversation so we're really kind of looking for, do you want to look into this issue further. And would you like us to come back to you with some of those real cost estimates so that then you know you can kind of take a look at that sit with it and then see where you are. So, in fact, the committee they've done a lot of work and Carolyn has done an excellent job of bringing things forward, and really kind of advocating for that but I also want to make sure that we are able to provide you with some details. So that then you've got. And that's why part of the memo is discussing secondary or third party evaluation of some of the costs associated with us because for this building we've kind of had, you know, piecemeal studies done for different purposes. So we want to make sure that we've got all the items, you know, in place and you want to do what you would like us to do. Yeah. Thanks Kelly that's why I, we didn't share anything with you before. So we are just offering. The task force name was mentioned a couple times, but it is of course up to, you know, the staff and all the things you explain is because they have been working such a long time and if you had a chance to attend their meeting you will see that so many many alternatives were being discussed. And I think our job as a city council representative for that committee just mentioned what they are offering for us, but I, yeah I understand that's why we didn't share anything before, and with you. Next question, because the Parker study came from that committee. It was vetted through them. Was it not. That's my understanding the Parker advisory group worked with the committee, and I was just appointed. So I don't know what happened before me. So I've attended one meeting. And sell and I will recharge. After that, because we are both serving on committees, I don't know what happened before me. So maybe they did maybe they don't know maybe more experience to the council or so that can explain yeah, I'd be happy to. So they did receive the report in advance going to council, they did not ultimately endorse it, but they also did not vote to hold it in committee. Thank you for putting your request to us so clearly what you need from us so I would say that I would really like the city to pursue investigating how much it would cost to implement the recommendation of building a hub slash shelter. At the rec center. And, and I think the rec center. It makes sense. I know it's going to come out to be way more expensive than anyone here probably thinks it's going to be. And that's okay. You know we want to know we need to know that. But we need something to happen soon we have people who need, who have needs that need to be met immediately. I think this seems like a way to do it. And I think that you know we've also got possibilities for other recreational facilities that might take the place of that the current rec center but I would encourage us to think about not waiting for that to be the case, and to look at what's happening in the current rec center building and think if there are ways for some of that, those programs to happen elsewhere. I mean for instance we have three schools right in town that all have gyms that are not being used outside of school stuff and I believe I know that's a fraud complicated issue. And yet we have these beautiful facilities that are in our city and so. And we have people who need a place to sleep at night, and I need a place to shower and I need a place to put their stuff and get services. So, I like to think we could work out any kind of, we could work that out somehow. And then I also, there's a question in here about what's the city's role in providing housing or helping or anything and I just, I know that's a, that's a big ongoing question but I just want to kind of put a word in for the idea of it being appropriate for the city to assume some kind of public responsibility for the safety of the people who are living here and that there are, you know, we don't have a work farm, we don't have a poor farm, but we have prisons now and that's pretty much what we do with people who are on, who can't find a place to live and can't hold down a job and don't have any family to take care of them. And, and I think it's worth including in the conversation. Public and civic responsibility towards folks along those lines. Now how we actually fulfill that obviously is very difficult and complicated, but we need to keep talking about it and, and this it's not part of the current report recommendations but I also must to think about longer term solutions for housing for people who maybe could be accommodated in housing. And talk about the idea of is there a building up at Vermont College, that's for sale that could be turned into housing for people who can't find housing somewhere else, and that the city may be able to have a role to play in that. And I know that all these things are out of our reach financially at the moment, but I think if we can, we're pretty good at finding money for things that we value. And so, I think we should work on it. I agree with, with all of that but I wanted to emphasize a couple of things one Kelly I wanted to make sure that the cost of the mitigation was broken out. According to the full mitigation of building as well as the staged mitigation just so we can have something to, you know, to compare. And I think we would itemize items for this specific use and also probably use some of the feedback from the homeless this task force to, you know, provide those estimates so that we can also make sure that there are, you know, some, you know, just sort of numbers of those things that they've already done a lot of the work. And so it's just maybe, you know, scaffolding that a little bit. I also agree that that it might make sense. I mean, I think I think it does make sense for the city to take some responsibility for managing this issue. I think we, we already provide some community services. This, this is, as you were saying, Lauren, this, this seems to come up every year. I mean, it, it probably needs a city department to keep just to keep the ball rolling. We're right now we're really in a situation that I consider to be an emergency I was at the last homelessness, the task force meeting and with unless the legislature acts soon and the motels and hotels empty the local population of unhoused peoples could could double or at least close to that over the summer, and then we head into fall with with what I mean it's April already. And, you know, we can price things and we can survey things and we can look for alternatives but I think we have something viable across the street and we need to, we need to act quickly because really it's like a hurricane. Lauren. Thanks. Yeah, I agree with the direction, everyone's heading, I mean I very much think, I mean, I agree with Tim I think the federal government should be doing more I think the state government should be doing more I mean one thought is. I was a little underwhelmed, but I am interested in inviting the state back and maybe our, our delegation to understand what is the state doing what opportunities might there be for grant programs for support like what is their plan which from the news is no plan but I would want to hear that directly from them because maybe there's more going on behind the scenes then we're aware of and how would our services fit into into that and maybe just us being an advocate, maybe there's some grant programs or something they can tell us about that we can be made aware of. I wish that were true. I know, but get them on the record at least saying that no we're dumping the responsibility on to every local community across the state to manage which is atrocious and unconscionable but here we are and I think we do have a responsibility as a community to look for everyone who is living here and so I think this path of for me directing city staff to look at what would the plan be for getting the rec center. I mean I think if we get a red flag really soon that there's some huge problem we're not aware of I mean to me it seems workable but if it's like, it's going to be millions of dollars or something that we just don't have or something that track of plan B's or C's seems smart. The other piece that I think we should also be parallel which you have in your memo is the staffing because that then will become the next question. And so what's the city's recommendation for do we hire someone do we is there, you know it sounds like there's open questions of if good Sam or another way are interested or able to just take on extra work to staff this so let's be entering those, like, as soon as possible also so that doesn't become the next crisis. Well, as luck would have it. Rick the Angeles has his hand up. So, does that mean you're inviting me to speak. Yes, it does. Thank you. And I'm so glad that you touched upon that. And I'm grateful for this discussion but as it's proceeded I'm thinking to myself. I hate the burst everybody's bubble, but you're focusing on the easiest part the real estate. And I'm a guy that comes from a real estate background, but I've been operating shelters for the last three years. Now I know the most difficult part of trying to shelter people is to operate. And, and you can believe that that challenge has increased greatly over the last two months. You know, we've had two. We had somebody murdered last week in a shelter in Brattleboro. And we had one of our staff in fact my own son son who was very savagely stabbed at the at a warming station so good Sam is very interested in being part of the solution here. We expressed that to Kelly and Bill earlier today. But it's going to have to be done in a way that we feel is safe. And in a facility that we feel is an appropriate facility. And quite frankly, I mean, we want to work with the city and everybody else, but it's got to be done on our terms, if we're going to be the operator. So. And I'll just leave you with one other thought. And again, we shared these points with Bill and Kelly earlier today. We are not interested in running the housing hub. We frankly don't think it's all that the real critical part of this. We're not convinced that providers are going to come. We're not convinced that the public is going to come quite frankly. And we do think the most critical part is the shelter and a robust street outreach program in Montpelier and in the area. So I'll leave you with that. That is really great to hear. Have your input on that Rick, I appreciate that. Have given what's happened in a couple of cities now as. Is there a clear thought or. Are there ideas coalescing about what elements are necessary to provide services in a safe way. I'll tell you, we talk about that every day. And it's really challenging because on the one hand, you want to treat people respectfully and decently and to trust them and welcome them. But on the other hand, there are some unpredictable behaviors that happen in the shelter. And so you're, there's always this tension, you know, how strictly are we going to control this environment. And if you get too strict, then it feels like you're running a prison or a jail or something like that. But on the other hand, maybe if you're too. You know, open open ended about it, you may be taking some risks. And quite frankly, I would say that. I think the population that has been centered in Montpelier and on the streets present the most challenging behaviors that there are. So we're interested in serving that population. We have a whole network of services and shelters. And, and this is the piece that we feel is that that really needs to be addressed well. And we want to do that, but we have to do it in a safe way. And we can't over tax what we've already been or already providing right now. So that's a great question, Jack, but we're going to have to keep looking at that and figuring out the best strategy that we can come up with. Donna has a question for you, I think. When you talk about having a safe place away to operate the program in a safe place, 55 Berry Street would be sharing it with general public of all ages. Right now that rec building is used from all ages. Can, can you visualize using that space as a shelter for showers and bathrooms. It's at separate times, I could. So let's say that we can, we continue to our group continue to run it as an overflow shelter. And you could only use it for, for the homeless population during those times you I would not want to be mixing the general public with with, you know, a high needs population of people. I think that would be a mistake. You know, there's some things I really like about that building. And there's other things that I don't. And you know, I like the big open space gives you a chance to, you know, to watch people carefully and to have the action right in front of you. But of course that building needs so much that I'm concerned about that and one last point and you know, I'm I'm concerned about the money too. I mean if we're going to have a robust staffing thing. Where's that money going to come from. I think even the, you know, the project at Christ Church over the winter that that another way did I think they're up around $200,000 and in operating costs for that. And so this can get and quite frankly we're trying to, we need to increase our wage rates because we're concerned that people aren't going to want to do this work. And we want to have a very robust staffing plan. So, so that's something that we have to throw into the equation here too. How can we figure out how to staff this appropriately and pay for that. And we're not thinking that the city has to be the entire part of that solution but it may have to be part of it if it really wants to address it. Thank you. Thanks, Carrie. Yeah, thank you so much I appreciate your kind of firsthand expertise perspective and I feel like the voice that I'm hearing from you now is missing from the report that we received that we're responding to right now. And so that raises all kinds of questions for me as to the role that our local providers played in creating that report and the role that the homelessness task force has played. So, I give so much credence and respect to your input and don't want to make decisions and make plans without having that, and I'm finding myself feeling a little uncertain at this point whether we should be turning to the homelessness task force for advice about this. I would have thought we would have heard that or be hearing that it sounds like they're working on that we may hear something, but I think I, I guess I'm asking for your thought about. I'm hearing a lot about the challenges and what we can't do and I'm wondering, even that I think that the people in this room right now the city council are feeling very positive and very enthusiastic about trying to move forward with doing some work on the part of the city and spending some money of the cities, what what's a way that we can do that fruitfully. I want to take one more comment and then I'm sure there are others that want to address that question. You know I take some responsibility for that. I'm on the task force. I spoke with Paul and Dan a couple of times. And, and overall I support the idea but you know, the thinking was, let's get some ideas out there. Operating it is going to have to refine the plan. And that was the discussion I had with Paul and Dan. And, and, and also since we have those discussions the landscape has changed quite frankly. We've had two brutal, you know, events that have occurred. So, we are feeling a lot more cautious than we might have when I talked to those guys earlier in the year. And so I don't think you, I don't, I think it would be a mistake to say, well this isn't a good plan. Let's, you know, Rick the Angel is just, you know, said all these things that are wrong with it. No, no, no, I think it's the right. It's, it's, it's important to have this level of a response. And, but now we got to keep, we got to refine it and look at the, at the different options and see what really works. Thanks Rick. Paige Curtin. Hi. I just want to say a couple of things about the rec center, which I really like the idea of using the rec center if we can. We've been doing dual use with the church for this entire winter. It seemed as far as the church, I know there was some issues and there will be with the population we're talking about. But you know, I was in cleaning the room, one morning a week for the entire winter, and it was the guests were, for the most part, fine. The place was not a mess. It was easy to take care of. We had, we had a really good staff person on call on in there on Tuesday night guy named Sam and I don't even know his last name but he was really good with the population that was staying there. Anyway, do use I think as possible we might have to change the hours that the rec center is open a little bit which I'm sure my grandson would be devastated here about. But, you know, we could do that, and that leads to the next point which is, we've had kids playing basketball and adults playing pickleball in that building for years, asbestos and lead notwithstanding. So we could continue we could use that building in a temporary mode. If we have a plan to remediate at some point whether or not it actually happens or not I don't know, but I don't see asbestos being a reason why we can't continue to use that building and possibly do it as a dual use because it's got a big space for sheltering more people. The other thing is there are bathrooms in there which if they were updated, maybe one added on the ground floor, it would solve part of the public bathrooms problem. And you could easily put a simple lift to the back door of the gym. And that would resolve at least to the first floor, the access problem, which would resolve a couple of problems that are plaguing the building to begin with and I think you could probably do all that for what's left of the allocated money. That's, that's my plug. Thanks page. And I have to say that one's idea. I want to urge the council to keep it simple. Basically, what we need is an overnight, an overflow shelter. So what we need is access. We need a bathroom. And we need whatever it takes to comply with the city code on the subject. And if we expand it further than that. I don't think is relevant. And if we stick with the overflow shelter piece of it, then it's something that would be done. Hopefully, every winter. So it's not creating any kind of a new activity. Again, I urge you to keep it simple stick with what, what's being proposed that if you just do the bathrooms, you may not have to disturb any asbestos or very little or it can be encapsulated. Thank you, Carolyn. Peter Kelvin. Peter Kelvin. Mountain view. I was the coordinator of the homelessness task force. I was the coordinator of volunteers for the Christ church based shelter. I was the coordinator for the homeless and stays of action that took place at three different motels. I made about 20 pages of comments on various drafts of the Parker report. I would like Jack you to let me talk for a little more than two minutes. And one of the reasons is that unlike. I think some people have a mistaken idea that because this, the, the Parker associates were hired on the recommendation of the task force that the task that they worked hand in glove with us. They did not. We received, despite the fact that in December, I gave them a backward planning schedule, which they ignored. We received approximately 10 days before you receive we received the first draft that we ever saw. I spent about 24 hours of time going through that. A couple of other people did too. There's another mistaken impression here, which is that the housing task, the homelessness task force is a monolith. The homelessness task force consists of 11 people. Six of whom are in the trenches working with people every day. And frankly, don't have the time to be reading reports or commenting on them. Five of the appointees are regular citizens like myself, Carolyn and Carolyn and a few others. We are the only ones who really have the time to get to read. I promise you that most most of the members of the task force didn't even read the report. And in the discussion, as Kelly said, there was not a vote to endorse it. There was also not a vote to withhold it. But I got to tell you, there were a lot of questions in it. And we identified a lot of things that were not in it that should have been in it. Carolyn's proposal, which I wish you would read to you, which is what appellan alluded to before was developed by Carolyn. I helped her. It is not a work of the task force. If you want to go and talk, well, let's ask the task force, you're going to get approximately while you won't get 11 different answers, but you'll get a probably about nine. So don't think that you're going to get the task force to answer any of your questions. All right. Now, let me just be clear about a few things. As a person who's been on top of this whole thing, pretty much for the last 18 months. Actually, I was on the housing task force before I was on the housing task force when the city plan planning process began four years ago. That city plan has been in the works for four years. And I'll tell you right now that it has not been. It did not come back to the housing committee until very recently. It was not shape the was not shape the Parker associates did not talk with the housing committee or the plan or the planning committee or the planning commission. Peter, can we get back. I'm going to wrap it up. We're incredibly siloed here. And I'll tell you that I have read every draft of the planning commissions chapter on housing. And there is all most nothing in there. About the issues that the Parker report, I brought up almost nothing. There's one little thing about affordable housing. There's nothing about about subsidized housing. There's the whole discussion in there of a country club road doesn't mention it unless the city council directs the planning commission, the housing committee and the homelessness task force to sit down together and work on this. That report that chapter is not going to meet what the Parker report proposed. It's just not going to do it. Thank you. Linda burger. Thank you. I'm from district one. I take it very seriously when Rick D'Angelo says that my pillar has the most challenging population in the area. I have to reference the plan that's going to be talked about later to continue to support confluence park, where a city puts their money reflects their values. People that have mental health needs, other needs, shelter needs, and it's going to cost money to address those needs, or the whole population of Montpelier will be at risk. And I've experienced this in San Diego. San Diego has a homelessness population issue. It also has a resource issue. And it ends up being unsafe for both populations. Thank you. Thanks Linda. So members of the council are we in agreement that we want the city staff to proceed with the cost estimate and the, and the rest of what we were talking about. Well, we need to have a motion for that. I think we can just everyone agrees. And I would just like to add, like what Rick was talking about mixing, when we talked about doing other things with the rec center before and we put the walkers near them right behind them. There was a lot of public push concerned about mixing the age groups of different populations. So we need feedback from the rec center how they feel about it. And perhaps we can even get more from from Rick in detail. Thank you. Kelly, how long do you think it would will take to get those numbers. Well, following this meeting we can go out to contractors to get them. So just be maybe by the meeting or maybe by. So, I mean, there's an urgent, it's an urgent need if you could, if you could put a time constraint on that the sooner, the better if you can do that with the people you work with. And then Tim Kelly, can we can we also create some kind of timeline like in, I'm just making this up right in six months. You can do this and the cost is like that, not like a general cost estimate, because some things are very urgent and we need some kind of time frame, right. Sure. Then we can decide okay in six months this cost we can do this in a year. It costs that much we can do that so I think it will give a better idea for us. Thank you. Tim. I think the we look at the memo item six, which is titled should 55 very street direct center building be considered. Second paragraph is actively what Kerry said. I think it details the instructions that we want to pass through just half. So it looks like they were recommending it makes sense in architectural evaluation, and maybe an architect would be a good person or an architectural firm to give us a timeline and give their experience of what's going on in construction. Do you agree so well it just depends on how how far feel they go I mean I think this the structural evaluation the building is has been done we might consider going back to somebody like bread loafers or somebody who's familiar already looked at the technical stuff with the understanding that times have changed costs have changed, but they you know they've already prepared cost numbers to that. Okay. Yeah they might be able to do it to sweet as a bar. Yeah, keeping in mind that what we've looked at before was for a new rec center it wasn't for. Yeah, for this use. Okay, and that's what this specifically says identify those issues which must be addressed in order to provide a shelter. Well the part that worries me is the architectural survey. I'm sorry. Just that we paid them to look at it before I don't know how much we can expect asked by all means but realize unless we're going to pay money for real. We cannot get the detail you're thinking of. It's all going to be ballpark numbers and ballpark timelines. We have to get some number numbers on this. What do you mean spend money. Yeah, you want. And where would it come from. Why don't you look into that and bring that to our next meeting. Sorry for the interruption earlier. Since there's a 90% chance if not greater that we'll have to mitigate that building eventually. Don't we actually ask for bids on the minimum work that Carolyn's plan would require. As a first step from contractors who we can then we can still after we get the pricing we can still decide not to do it but we'll have firm pricing from contractors who are able and willing to do the work. We can we can we can get estimates for the rest of the structure. Over the over the over the following weeks or you know whatever that the initial time period we were thinking of would be that would get us some firmer numbers. Okay for the portion that we that we're actually talking about completing in the near future. It would but it seems like we're getting ahead of ourselves to do that. So that's actually what sort of what the options might be for fulfilling what's been recommended, but no, and also kind of dovetailing and some of the more immediate needs. Seeing you know how much that might cost. If anything I mean maybe we're in kind of a bid situation where we might be able to get some, some information upfront, we'll see. Okay. Sounds good. To chapter two in the Kelly show. Yeah, strategic plan item. Well, and the purpose of putting this on the agenda was to have a review of what we've adopted for strategic plan. To get a sense of how people feel about it now and whether we want to have a deeper look at the whole thing now as opposed to in the future. Kelly. Yes. So I am going to give you a quick presentation. So I'm going to just step down there. And if you'd like, I can turn down the lights on the side of things and then we'll take it from there. Quick question. How long is your presentation. It's five after eight. Will we be done by 30. I hope so. Your presentation will be done by 30. Yes, I'm not sure about the discussion. Okay. Can everybody see this presentation here. Perfect. Okay. So as Jack provided in summary that the purpose of this presentation is to bring everybody up to speed on our strategic plan. And also just to make sure that what we've got in our plan is reflective of counts council goals and priorities. There are three options that you might take for tonight following this presentation one is to affirm the current plan. And the other option is to maybe affirm the plan, but with minor amendments or three to go back and review the plan in advance of the next strategic planning process, which would likely require an additional meeting. But we can certainly do that if that's your pleasure. So I'm going to go through the presentation here. And then we'll take the discussion from there. Let me see here. A little ahead of myself here. Okay. Perfect. So what we're going to talk about what the strategic plan is, why the strategic plan. Talk about the cycle a little bit and then the, you know, the three really high levels of the strategic plan and why they're important, the vision, the goals. Strategies and initiatives. Just starting with the, what is the strategic plan. It's the process in which the council defines the city's vision for the future and identifies the goals and objectives. And then the why is it allows for the city to prioritize new projects. And to make sure that they're serving the council's vision and to measure progress and outputs and to provide clarity and transparency for the work that the city does. And so as you can see here from this graphic, this really kind of shows from top to bottom, what the strategic plan is visually from vision to action and I can go through each of the items individually but get the gist. And so this quadrant map just kind of shows you, you know, how we might sort of assess and address the strategic plan and how we sort of determine what might rise to a level of priority. And how we are going to use our time. I know Bill has mentioned to you in the orientation that, you know, we only really have 100 hours together so we want to really make it count. And so the strategic plan is, you know, that document. I also should mention that we recently within this past cycle or so have aligned the strategic plan with a budget process so that then we can make sure that we're putting money to those priorities. And so this shows you the cycle of the strategic plan and the elements of strategic planning. And so we go through each of these individual spheres to kind of take a look at things as we're working through the strategic plan. And when we start the strategic planning process in the fall, we'll go through all of this, maybe me leading the process and maybe a facilitator. It depends, but we'll go through all of these items. And so just so you get kind of a view of what this looks like and so that we could apply it to a real example. We've got this emergency management example here but you've got your, your goals which are public health and safety. And then strategies, emergency management. And then you've got the initiatives which breaks down into the hazard mitigation plan, the continuity of operation plans, and then maybe some table talk exercises and then from there you've got very specific actionable items. And so each of our goals mirrors that and the way that we've got it broken down further in the presentation. I mentioned this at the beginning, the goal of this review is really to determine whether or not the current plan is in alignment with the current council. And then these quotes are just sort of, you know, some thoughts around, well, you know why we're doing this, you know, really kind of looking at making sure that, you know, we're getting the work of the city done that you want done. This is a little bit of an ugly slide but I think it makes the point we're doing a lot of work and this is the vision that came forward as part of a prior process, but you kind of see what's been important in the past, and what is really shaping our goals as we move forward. So these are our goals. So these are the things that will break out in the next slides, but improving community prosperity, providing responsible and engaged government, creating more housing, practicing good environmental stewardship, building and maintaining a sustainable environment, and then improving public health and safety. You also know that this looks kind of like a dashboard, because it is, it's part of our invisible platform that we use, and is also part of the reporting materials that was included in the packet. So, in summary, these are sort of the higher level goals, and their prioritize strategies for how to address them and so they're, they're pretty high level. So they provide sort of the goal and a little bit of a definition around what we're going to do. And so I can go through each of these individually but I'll move on to each goal. And so moving on to that, each of them is broken out here. So we've got improved community prosperity. And then you can see, you know what the goal is and then what each of the individual strategies are and what the initiatives are underneath those strategies. So we can go through them one by one, if you'd like. But the materials that were provided do provide an assessment of these items and where they are of note just if you're looking for like a quick, like cliff notes guide the disruptions report is really helpful I think in determining the key initiatives that may have And some of them actually I was looking back through them and we do owe you another report on that. And I think that you'll see that some of them have actually ticked forward in the next iteration. We'll keep moving on unless if you want to take them one by one or just keep going. Okay, I can do that. This is news. Sure. So I'm just going to maybe pause here and just take a look at this one community prosperity and then take a look at the strategies and just make sure that they kind of make sense and if they don't. Maybe we can have a conversation about that. I can see strategy 1.3 on my computer but I don't see it up there. Maybe it's something about the projector. It is, it's getting cut off on the bottom. I don't see any city staff in the room so they they have the report. And then it's what I think as long as people online are good with it. Is that okay. Okay, thank you. So I'll just go through the strategies real quick and just see if they make sense. So for this one improve the community prosperity. The first strategy is to actively support economic development and promote outdoor economic development and so you've got the initiatives under that. I think we're going to have a number of other projects. And then the first one is the Recreation and parks as an economic driver and then prioritizing revitalization and proceeding with Confluence Park. This is number one. Well, the strategy is sort of something that did, you know, come to the top of the discussions for some of these, these items. In terms of actually support economic development and the promotion of outdoor economic development. So it's kind of a two fold. And then you've got the initiatives underneath it that are supporting that. I mean, when we developed this though it wasn't like this was the number one priority like I would view them all as like kind of, or the way I took it at least was like it was like six equal like infrastructure. So I think it's just as important or more important than improving community prosperity like they were all standalone essentially I would not say like just because they happen to be in this border we could have reversed the order of any of them. So I don't, I wouldn't read too much into like the order that stuff is in versus just do the strategy still make sense. So, so should we save our comments on the individual ones for discussion later. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Okay, thank you. Thank you learn. So, the next one the strategy is to actually support the expansion of city provided childcare options. And so I'm just going to focus on the strategies for right now and not get into the initiative pieces. And then the third here listed is to implement new economic development plans and supports. So those were the items that we identified to improve community prosperity. So the next one to provide responsible and engaged government. So we said we would, in terms of strategies, communicate effectively increase accessibility, focus on diversity, equity and inclusion, and then increase city staff and council capacity. To create more housing. We wanted to increase available housing units meet emergency housing needs and study the underlying housing barriers. And then under practice good environmental stewardship. We wanted to look at the promotion to promote conservation of river and water land resources address climate change issues and expand parkland. And then under build and maintain sustainable infrastructure. We wanted to address newer improved infrastructure needs invest in an implement long term department of public work infrastructure plans continue infrastructure funding strategies. And then this was a little bit small so sorry about that. So in terms of improving public health and safety we wanted to address homelessness in the community, provide policing which fits my bill years needs and effective mental health be disaster ready and focus on public safety planning. And so this this this slide here gets beyond the goals and these this is so maybe keep going with the rest of the presentation and come back. So this is the results of the national citizen survey that we did this past fall which can kind of show you which items we scored lower than the benchmark on which ones we scored higher so lower being not as great higher being good. And the items that are bolded are addressed within our strategic plan. So those are items that we're working on. I mean you can see that in the higher benchmark areas, you know, they're definitely represented over the work that the city council is doing and it's pretty impressive, you know, but then on the lower side of things there are some things of concern that that we're working on, but also should be noted. As we get into future cycles or within this one. So next steps. This is pretty, pretty straightforward based on what we've been talking about. We need to determine whether to keep them in the current plan. And then, you know, perhaps identify areas of future interest and then just open it up to questions and discussions and I can stop the share here. Or I can put the slides back up in terms of just the individual items or we can help you. I don't know much like to do from here. I suggest that we see great. Okay, council members. We have had the presentation on our strategic plan. So what would you like to do now. Do you feel do we feel that we're close enough to where we want to be that we can do some tweaking tonight and be done with it or do we feel that we want to have a bigger and more in depth discussion. Carrie. All right, I'm going to strongly advocate for not having a big in depth discussion. I, I like strategic plans I think this is a good one. I love the reporting that the staff does for us very thorough it's very helpful for me to be able to see where things are and then and the disruptions report particularly is great to know why something has been slowed down. I think part of the point of having a strategic plan is so that we have a period of time set out where we have planned and we know what's going to happen. And so, I'm not in favor of making any big and I'm not really in favor of making any amendments to it in midstream, especially since in within a few months we have coming up, presumably, our next strategic planning process. So, but I recognize that if this is a two year plan that we have a lot of different people on the council I wasn't part of creating this plan. Most of us weren't part of creating this plan. And so there are probably thoughts and opinions. I definitely have thoughts and opinions about things that if I could change it. I would, but I don't want to do it right now. And I'd rather we didn't. So I'm advocating for us not doing it right now. Maybe if there's some really big things that people want to flag right now that we can note so that when we get to this in a few months, we know these are the things that were really on our mind but if we change it as we go along every few months then it's it loses a lot of its value as a strategic plan. I'm not in favor of that. Okay. Donna. You're just not used to being Lauren. I was part of this plan so it aligns with my priorities still. I do like Kerry's idea of, I would at least really appreciate knowing what, especially the new counselors if there's big things that are not here that you're going to be putting forward. If like if we follow Kerry's recommendation of process. I just think it would be really valuable to understand like what the scope of the year might look like and what kind of like changes might be proposed so that we can start wrapping our heads around the new counselor's priorities. Seems like, I mean, obviously the, the goals slide is terrific. And the next slide down with summary of goals and prioritize strategies. All works for me it seems like it's when we go to that next level of breakout and this is a really on precise broken out layered plan. The pieces of that it really falls apart for me, but, but I agree with Kerry. I think we've got to keep our priorities and if we really want to accomplish the goals of what the voters voted us to do. Just a month or so ago, we've got to focus on infrastructure and helping the homeless problem and working on these key problems that are in front of us and we are working on that so I don't think we want to be distracted from that work. I agree. For instance, I noticed you had a reaction when you saw proceed with Confluence Park and I know that that's one of our initiatives but we've also already taken action to say well, we're not putting any more city money into it we are letting the components of this park. Go out and try to do some fundraising. Okay, but we're not. We're not actually doing doing it at this point so it's it's on our list but it's not something we're really doing. It just needs to be way further down the list than it appears here for me. Yeah, it's But we have money in the pipeline. So we have to make a decision about that money, which we put off for 18 months. Yeah. And it's also Anybody else have any. I pretty much concur with what Jim says I'm, I'm great with the, with the big picture stuff I think some of the smaller particularly in the, in the improve community prosperity. I don't have any subsections but I agree I think, I think we're, we're addressing the things we need, we need to address we're spending our time where it should be. The issues that I'm most interested are all in here. So I'm, I'm okay. Okay. Anybody else have any thoughts, and you don't have to jump up and say anything. Let me just check. I've got a couple of people. I'm going to go to the next slide page curtain. Hi, thank you. I guess, economic prosperity is kind of a worn out phrase. And I feel like it really isn't terribly meaningful. I would love to see the council consider changing that to something along the lines of economic equity. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. Linda burger. And I would just like the council to consider that in strategy 4.1 practice, good environmental stewardship conservation of air quality resources isn't included in that. And I think that I'd hope the council would consider air quality. That was definitely not on our radar and we were talking about it last time and so I, I'm sure that that will be something we talk about. Next time. Okay. I think we're set. Thank you. Thanks Kelly. Next up, we have the code of conduct. And this is something as, as I think, thank you all know this is something that typically we just adopt without, without change or a lot of discussion. And we, at the initial organizational meeting after town meeting. And we passed over at last time because there was probably going to be some more discussion. What is your pleasure with this. You notice that there's a proposal from me to, to change the time limit. For general business and appearances and I don't know if there's enough support, I'm certainly not going to push it if my fellow members of the council do not. Do not support it, but I'll just point out that on occasion, there are people, there are specific comments that people have to make that two minutes isn't enough and I know we ordinarily let people go to three or so. But the other part of the proposal that I have in mind is to manage the overall time of general business and appearances to ensure that it never is going to go beyond 30 minutes. And I think that that's another important part of it. And I would be happy to do what people want on this topic. Couple comments. And my understanding is, we don't go at two minutes, we put the one minute up at three minutes, people are cut off at four. Okay, so that's been, and so I would love to have an actual automatic timer that we have to offer a table here and people come up. They have a place to put their papers. They push the starting button and they can see the time and we really, we say to we mean to. You know, the time before the previous mayor and I tried to explain to you. I get involved in the discussion. I can't guarantee I'm going to hit it at two so I feel more comfortable knowing I'm giving everybody three from when I do pick it up so that everybody's always getting more than two minutes. But then, so I put the one minute up at three and ever believe they go to some of them go to the red at that point they're at four plus, and by the time they actually leave most are at five. I mean, it sounds like you'd like to be relieved. So it's going to be to let's be to, but it's going to be like, they do make buttons, you know, automated things that you can sit there and the person but then it's going to be a little beep and when I tried to get the council before to allow me to have a beep. They didn't like it. So that's what we went to the this but if you had something that was automated digital, they would see it and it would be. That's it. You're done. And do they make it two sided where they can see it and we can see it too. You have to, you have to go Google it. What kind of contraption you can make, but so that's one thing I really would like it to be independent of the person and off of me or anyone else. And that to realize that if we do things that general appearances there are councils such as our Montpelier Roxbury school board. They only allow public comment at general public comments. They do not let the public comment on each individual item. The way we do Burlington City Council does the same thing. You can make public comments doing the public comment you do not make a comment, unless it's a specific public hearing, which is a different type. And I do emphasize that our meetings are for us. It's the only time that more than three of us can talk we can't even talk in the hallway. There's more than about anything we just talked about. If it's more than three of us and I don't think people understand how confining that is. The only time we hear one another is here. And we're giving so much time to the public throughout the meeting. I don't mind expanding this but then I really want constraint elsewhere, unless it's a public hearing. So, that's my two. And I think I saw your hand. I just want to support her idea about taking it from an individual and having the clock. Most of the computers have their timer. So we don't have to buy or anything if we arrange our computer and just put it on the screen. It will do it by itself so. That's it. Yeah. Anybody else. The fact that you already go to four minutes and then most people take five argues for making the limit five. The ones I have to use to sign for there are plenty of people who talk under two minutes. Yeah, but the ones who I end up. I think we can encourage to and put the limit at five. I wonder about the comments during the agenda actual agenda items themselves. I mean, you're, you're arguing for, for no public comments after the or not five minutes again. You look at a shorter period during that time. I just think it would be odd to be discussing something when someone comes to the meeting they don't know what we're our reaction to an issue is going to be until they hear it. They might have something they want to say before they hear us talk but they may also have a response that I think it's worth our allowing them to make and that might benefit us if we're here. Even though I agree we have so little time to spend discussing it as a group. Terry. I think that the structure that we have now is, is pretty good and sometimes it, it can go on for a very long time when the fact that we allow public comment on every agenda item but I think on the on the whole I thought about this a lot kind of weighing different ways to do it I think on the whole the fact that we air on the side of allowing more public comment opportunity is good. So, I want to stick with that. And I think we do a pretty good job. I think we have a very good kind of process set out that can keep control of it so that we're not getting into like back and forth and and discussion, because it's not a public discussion time. It's, you know, it's art. It's, this is our meeting with public input. So I didn't realize that we were, that we were extending our time quite that much I knew it was, I knew we were stretching the two minutes. Five minutes feels like a really long time to me. I think if we make it five minutes. We'll take five minutes who might otherwise be trying to ran themselves in. I do like the idea of limiting it all to 30 minutes. I think that's a great idea. It does require the mayor whoever's facilitating the meeting to get to know at the beginning, how many people there are who want to speak and to do a little bit of math and then we have to keep very tight control over the time. So that could be logistically challenging, but I think it'd be worth a try. Wonder if we said three minutes, and it was a real three minutes with a timer and of some kind. And then the mayor always has the discretion to allow somebody to talk longer if they need to. Does that work for people. All right. So, let's let's see we I see one person with the hand up Peter Kiliman. I'd like the council to consider if not this time next time around something which many councils do around the country, which is a council conduct with the public in public meetings. It includes things like be welcoming to speakers and treat them with care and gentleness be fair and equitable and allocating hearing to public hearing time to individual speakers, give the appearance of active listening. Ask for clarification but avoid debate and arguing with the public, no personal tax of any kind. These are ideas that govern the way the council treats people come before them. Just to just to talk about one little one of them. This, and you can find these on the web. There's a lot of things like this. Speaking in front of council can be a diff. This is just reading can be a difficult experience for some people. Some issues that council undertakes may affect people's daily lives and homes. The reasons are emotional. The way that council treats people during public hearings can do a lot to make them relax or to push their emotions to a higher level of intensity. I can tell you I've talked to a lot of people who go before the council and they feel intimidated, and they feel they're not being heard. They feel it that people are looking down at their, whether this is fair or not they feel people are looking at their phones and the fact that there isn't any interaction is problematic because of course you guys are not really supposed to interact, but there needs to be a way to be a little warmer about it. So I just hope you'll think about if you're going to allow people to speak to make them feel more comfortable about speaking. And this is one last little thing, which is that hearings are too late for many people by the time they hear people just don't believe that anything's going to change because of a hearing. They really do want to be able to make input well before the hearing I think you should think about that Donna. Thank you. So by unanimous consent. Are we okay with changing the those two provisions of the of the rules of conduct the time limit and the total time for general business and appearances. I have another change I would like to suggest but we could do them separately if that's better way to handle it, not to that section but to a different section. We're good on that. Okay, great. And we'll have to figure out some technology some some device. Okay, Terry. I would like to, it's a B seven. So it's under general rules and appropriate attire. And now of course I can't find it in here but yeah. Okay appropriate attire, including wearing shoes pants and shirts are required in the Council chambers and other meeting rooms at all times. I don't think this is necessary. I think we could strike it. It sends a message of we do things in a certain way here and if we have to be very, very proper and if you're going to come and be with us you have to play by our rules and you have to do things the right way and we have to, you know, behave yourself and I don't think that's a message that we want to send or need to send. I think this is in general we try to be pretty welcoming. There are lots of things we could do to be more welcoming but this just this feels unnecessary to me, so I would propose that we get rid of it entirely. Any objection to that. All right. I think we're good on that too. Let's put it back in. It's the whole time I've been at on the Council or coming to meetings. Never seen anyone address it dressed in a way that would run up out of this. Maybe no shoes but right. Yes. I think we could add the use of seats. It talks about persons in the audience shall use the audience seats unless invited by the mayor or staff to sit at the presentation table or Council seat. Now, sitting here, I deal with somebody who roams around and sits on that table, and it's very distracting. And I know part of it is my own dyslexic that I really find that hard. Is there any way to defend maybe people object to this but is there any way to make suggestions to have people sit in their seats. I hearing hearing that now, I will. It's already a rule. I'm happy to say to direct people to follow it. Thank you. I think I think that's, that's a good point. It doesn't bother you what he's doing. Okay, good. Thank you. Oh yeah, we've had people come up to stand behind the city employees at the table and stuff like that. And I think you're right. That's a good point. Thank you. Okay, anything else are we ready to move on. Okay. Next up is another one of those things that we do every year and that is the our group norms. And it's in the packet. And our people prepared to just adopt them, read up them the way they are or have any further discussion about them. And, you know, we, we adopted these several years ago and and I took the time last night again to read through this whole list again and it's really a set of behavioral expectations that we have assumed on ourselves to have constructive engagement with each other. And so I think there's some, some real value to saying, yes, we adopt this we, we think that we should hold ourselves to these standards and I know there have been times where people have reminded each other or all of us of the value of following these norms. Donna. I love that there's a council member or staff who are good words miss to reduce the line items but this came out of a rather dysfunctional council that went into retreat. It took a lot of time. And hence it's more lately I think than it needs to be. Anyway, so I'm looking for a good word Smith or to make suggestions, but I feel the essence of it is really great. Anybody want to volunteer to take that on. Okay. Okay. Okay, so we'll, we'll we have it by next meeting. Good, because let's buy next meeting we either have a condensed version or we just adopted this one again. Anyone in the public have anything to comment on this, I don't see any hands up. Okay, we're up to other business. Business. City Council reports started this end tonight, Lauren. Nothing to report tonight. Thanks. Nothing to report. Thank you. Well, did attend first committee meetings, since we started off and the housing committee was interesting and also the stormwater meditation committees. This is my learning curve expands both of those were really good to be part of drinks. So, likewise, I attended my first couple of many meetings. I'm hoping Donna if you have anything to say about transportation infrastructure that you will handle that was sort of new to me. Homelessness was the other one and I think I've talked a little bit already about went on with that meeting that the real focus now is, is handling the the exit the exit from from the hotel program so I think there's the committee is working pretty hard. The task force working pretty hard to figure out how to get something ready for that. Very along the same lines I attended the my first meeting of the social and economic justice advisory committee, and the, I think the relevant thing to report now is that they are actively recruiting new members. And so if anyone is interested in serving on that committee. They could reach out to any of the committee members, including myself and I'd be happy to talk with them about it and encourage folks to apply. Thanks. The storm water did need as Tim mentioned and just give everyone a heads up, not to anyone's surprise we found within our city we have silos, and we have different systems for water sewer, and we're going to add storm water. So we have right now two different people entering information sort of in two different systems that don't speak to one another. The storm water thought Oh, we can just blend into the system well it's all these problems. But the good thing is because we want the storm water, the sewer and the water bills to all be integrated and related to one another and one mailing that we're going to come out of this ahead, but we're going to have to spend some money. And we're certainly going to have to dedicate staff time to it. We don't have to go to all new software but we do have to do major modification. It's typical story right you start here and new things happen and you get a little, you stray a little bit. So that's the good news you'll be seeing some pricing coming up some rate will be presented to the council I believe they're going to be in May. And likewise on the infrastructure committee. So we are going to do what we plan to do last summer, but because we ran into the problems with the railroad, and getting our painter to do the striping, we were going to do a temporary lane the shared lane on Barry Street it's part of that study of Maine and Barry scoping. So we come into the main street intersection you may have noticed there's now two crosswalks. It goes from one side of main street by the, the parklet and shawls that will intersection the two crosswalks, and they both have flashy lights, they were painted but they're faded out but those also might going to be repainted. And then when you get on the Barry side, there's going to be a shared path with bicyclists and walkers sharing the same space that then connects it to the wreck building to the you share path that goes way out to bar hill and by the dam. So that's going to happen, did all this prep work last year and then it wasn't able to be put up, but there'll be new painting, new signs will hope that people will really pedestrians and bicyclists will share the space and enjoy the summer in 2024 it'll actually be constructed, permanently so. Thanks Donna, one of those, one of the things that I remember discussing when I was on the transfer transportation infrastructure committee was as this a few years ago now, but we talked with Tom about the idea of getting like a temporary temporary hardware to for around about at the main street and school street intersection to see to as a trial run for converting that intersection to around about and and that never happened and is that has that come back into discussion that intake. Well it's part of the one of the main one of the intersections that's in the main Barry Street scoping is also other intersections in Maine, and that's there, but the resources dealing with the pandemic and where DPW has been, we've also been in partnership with local motion from Burlington, and so their schedule impacts that they're helping us with this temporary that we're going to be doing this summer. So right now that's on the back burner, but we are hoping to do that because that is in the plan to turn that school and main into a roundabout. Great. And you, you may you and I may have talked about this but I've also for years been thinking that Bailey would be a good place for a roundabout. It's, it's, it's plenty wide enough and Yeah, it really doesn't need cars sitting their idling. Yeah. Great. Mayor's report I am I have nothing to report the So I'll pass it to the clerk city manager acting city manager. Thank you. I'm just a few things. So I wanted to just provide a just quick plug for the next item for country called Broad and the next meeting will be may 24th and they'll be coming to council to really talk about the results of their spring engagement. I also wanted to mention that the spring engagement phase dates will be coming out will be meeting with the public again. The first date is April 29. The second date is May 3 and the third date is May 8. The structure will be very similar to what the winter engagement was one will be at country club road, one will be here in chambers, and then one will just be on zoom. So those dates will be coming out and there's a nice graphic on the flyer that Evelyn has put together that really demonstrates sort of what has been happening with that process fall 2020 vision winter 23 direction spring 23 is sort of this first phase completion, and then we'll get sort of a master plan for decision in June. So just kind of laying that out there for you. So you know that those things are coming up. And then the other thing that I wanted to kind of put before you is something to consider in light of just all of the decisions that will need to be made around country club road. If perhaps you might consider having a member sit in with staff on the internal process. That's something you'd like to consider doing so that then you know you get sort of a direct feed on the information being provided. That's something to consider. And then the next thing is kind of a thing that I don't get to do very often since I'm not usually sitting here so I'm thankful to be doing it is this is the second full week in April, which is the National Public Safety telecommunications week. So I just wanted to send thanks out to dispatch for all that they do and keeping us safe. So that's what I have for my items. Thanks. I just wanted to say thank you. I just was really grateful to see ongoing efforts at transparency updates to the police department website and really this was, we did a lot of work as a council and creating a public committee police review committee, a lot of recommendations and a lot of a call for just greater guarantee and accessibility. And, and so just really grateful to see that that work is continuing, even without that committee even existing anymore. So just thank you for that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.