 Hi Sonya, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. So I'm going to actually just get us started right away. I know I know we're in our sort of natural habitat of zooming together. I feel like I see more even more of you on zoom these days, right? So I just I know we want to start by doing some introductions. You are if you are tuning in I guess for a look of a better word you are watching myself and Sonya in conversation. My name is Kijua Sanders McMurtry. I am the vice president for equity inclusion and chief diversity officer at Mount Holyoke College and I use she her hers pronouns. I'm going to let my colleague introduce herself. Hi my name is Sonya Stevens and I'm the president of Mount Holyoke College and my pronouns I will say she has. So it's wonderful to be with you Sonya particularly because we are actually celebrating our fourth annual boom which is our building on our momentum day devoted to diversity our community day diversity to diversity equity inclusion learning and we see it as a rich opportunity to gather community members and do all the sorts of workshops and sessions and dialogues and often it is led and shepherded by students faculty staff and some alum who are guest speakers and we also bring in external speakers and so while this year is distinctly and uniquely different from any year prior to now I know that boom was sort of my introduction to the campus community and it was one of the things that made me so excited to work with you as a as the president at Holyoke because boom was initiated and started under your tenure as interim president and then you kept have kept it going as part of your presidency and your leadership of the college and and I'm excited to be here for that reason. I also just wanted to say that I think in particular what we thought we'd do is we want to we've been wanting to have this conversation I think forever this like feels like we're sort of like in our own little conversations we have all the time over snacks or whenever we get a a chance to sit and have meetings with each other one-on-one and we sort of getting these deep dialogues around challenging racism and challenging xenophobia and and so I don't think it's anything we'd ever want to stop right in a global pandemic in fact the reason why we titled this now more than ever is because we feel like diversity equity inclusion needs to still be at the center and a forefront of these kinds of conversations so this series will cover meta questions or meta kind of issues that we feel like we should unpack together and I know this one is a big one that comes up for us all the time is thinking about how we describe ourselves that there have been so many ways for us to think about who we are as a women's college in 2020 and so people have asked us a lot about how we describe ourselves particularly related to our policy around admitting people across the gender diversity spectrum so I'd love to hear from you like how you would talk about how we describe ourselves and what conclusions we've come to. Yeah so you and I have talked a lot about this right and we've we've talked with the board of trustees and we've talked with our colleagues and and I think we've both spent a lot of time talking with students about it over time and more than anything else I think what we want to do is to make sure that we're living up to the promise of our policies and to think about ourselves as a very particular space and and being a women's college enables us to do that I know often you know there's this notion that coed schools can be more inclusive but for me you know very clearly the there's a sort of implicit nature of a binary even in coed yeah I agree that doesn't need to be but there is right and so you know and just as we think about women's colleges as playing into that binary I think that what we're trying to do is to trouble that and to say women's colleges of Mount Holyoke in particular is a space where we can be the gender affirming and gender diverse institution we really want to be and so I think that that's the language that I would prefer to use that Mount Holyoke is a women's college that is gender diverse I would have 100% agree with you I think we we had like I remember like a long you know retreat with all of our senior leaders and there were so many terms thrown out and everything from what we hear all the time which is that we're a historically women's college or that we are a women's college that is gender affirming and I think one of the reasons why we loved women's college that is gender diverse from what I recall is that first of all it recognized that Mount Holyoke has probably always been a place that has had individuals who identified across the gender diversity spectrum who maybe when it wasn't as safe in society to be more visible people but you know people were able to claim the space of being gender non-conforming in some way within the institution but but I would venture to say that you know we don't know how long we've had trans men or trans women or people who identify as non-binary or gender non-conforming in the space and that that is something that we feel like we want it to be very bold about saying that we know we are a gender diverse institution and and one of the reasons why we stayed away from historically women's college is because there's so much loaded in that right there's there's this notion being like culturally appropriative and that there are historically black colleges and they are unique and distinct reasons why those institutions call themselves historically black colleges and so we didn't want to be appropriative of that I know for myself as a person who identifies as a black woman that you know and having attended and worked at a historically black college and university I think it was really important to not go down that path and I think the other although you know I know people continue to call us a historically women's college it also sort of gives this idea that like maybe we were once a women's college and now we're not really a women's college and that sort of is troubling in some ways because it sort of goes against like sort of what women's colleges were like what you just said like we've sort of always been places that transgress gender norms and so so we really feel I think much more comfortable with being a women's college that is gender diverse and using that language and I feel like that language will start to see all over much of the literature we put out so I'm really excited that we've come to this place and I think I'd love to hear you maybe talk a little bit about what you think has you know so we in 2014 it became the place that in a very public way I think there were many colleges I've worked with women's colleges that we're sort of trying to figure out better ways to be more inclusive and more thoughtful around particularly transgender students on our campuses but it you know but often miss the mark I think we also have been learning a lot about the journey we're on are there thoughts that you have about that that sort of evolution and where we are now in terms of the journey yeah well I think two things first of all I think you know to go back to that our earlier conversation the earlier part of the conversation I do think that talking about Mount Holyoke as a women's college that's gender diverse also enables us to link back to our founding principle right I think that when you think about Mount Holyoke as an institution that was founded against the very notion of gender discrimination and education this is a moment for us to reaffirm our commitment to be anti-discriminatory in terms of gender and in every other way too so I think just stop let me stop by saying that and then say that yes when we announced the new admission policy in 2014 I think there was there was a very much a destination in mind right that we wanted to be this place that was inclusive gender affirming and and yet probably we didn't know how much work we had to do to make that aspiration a reality for our students and so I think that like much of the work that we do and that you particularly now are engaged in with us it's a journey and and it's been a long journey so far but I feel as if we've made a lot of progress over the last few years and and particularly since we now have somebody who is leading the charge on this and able to support the changes that we need to see systemically so maybe you could say a little bit about how you see that and how you what you bring to this work that we didn't have before in the same way I don't think yeah I think I mean I think what's interesting I you know what I loved about my early days here is you are very honest with me about you know this journey that we were on and I think you are very honest about and I always have been like very honest with me about so many things that related to DEI which I've always so much appreciated and I think what I learned very quickly was that this you know even in the interview process this is a place that wanted to fulfill the promise we made to students in 2014 but hadn't quite figured out all the ways like what what needs to happen in terms of the infrastructure what policy changes need to happen what sort of language do we need to use on the web page what sorts of trainings that all the faculty staff and students need to have ongoing because it felt like there was even a deficit like sort of a gap between the knowledge base right which could be generational it could be because of different ways we've learned from our different life experiences from all over the world and this incredibly diverse and inclusive community and so I feel like I you know that was really evident to me before I came here and I was actually inspired and excited to come here for that reason because I had come from a women's college that was gender diverse and also been working on trans inclusion work and and I've always seen it as and what I knew coming here honestly was that there probably would always have been students who were sort of trailblazing and pushing and you know and always requesting and often you know sort of demanding that they be heard and be seen and so I think you all had made it clear to me that that wanting to figure out ways to create safety for students so that they could continue to push us to do better but do so in ways that weren't so burdensome to them I know that was incredibly important to you and I always felt so honored by that by that that work and what I have learned in doing this work is that it's not you know I'm a cis cisgender person meaning that how I was assigned at birth in terms of my gender is how I also identify and why I might have other marginalized identities that allow me to have some sensitivity to the ways that people who are on the margins might experience their life it doesn't mean that I actually could understand what it means to be a trans student at Mount Holyoke and I'm highly sensitive to that and wanting to always amplify the voices of trans and gender non-conforming members of our community whether students faculty staff or alum but doing so in a way that doesn't also put that work on them right it's really important I think I think that's what I would have to say is like now we get the opportunity to do this work together and continue to you know be open to kind of the the the feedback we get around work that we need to continue to do so I definitely don't see it as a destination I see it as a journey and I think we just have to keep at it and that's why we now have the new trans and gender non-conforming affirming practices working group we actually just started looking at changing our name because people were saying well if we just call ourselves a trans affirming practices working group is that inclusive enough of gender non-conforming people and so it's like we're constantly like thinking about you know how to make sure that we're doing work that is from a place of understanding and growth so I'm glad we've talked about that do you want to add to that? I do think you know that one of the other things I mean the work that the students did early on I mean I think about the the trans memo as it was called it really sort of laid the groundwork and I think we were all conscious in that moment that we we didn't want that burden to be on the students right that that it's our work to do that it's our work to do for them and with them and so I think really trying to think about as you say you know given our positionality how we inform ourselves so that we can come to the work with understanding and compassion and with commitment to make the things happen that need to happen for that for that real inclusion to to occur yeah and I you know so yeah I know like you I always feel like I have a syllabus like with you like right back at you it seems to me is a lot of stuff too we're always like articles to read and you know books to read and books and so you know I really thought like maybe you know I know you and I have talked about like in you know in conversation all the time like our latest reading so like when Dean Spade came in the fall we both were familiar with Dean Spade and and I know you know for me Dean Spade having worked with him previously and having read his article one of his articles that was really like a landmark moment for me was called Documentary Gender and it's an incredible article I would encourage anyone watching us to read this article but you recently came to me and and said like I have this new book on pronouns and it was an incredible book around from a linguist who was really sort of unpacking um you know sort of the history of pronouns you want to talk a little bit about that book and what it was like to read it and yeah I'm putting you to stay on top of readings when you're going to do this work of understanding identity yeah it's by um it's by Dennis Baron you said you couldn't find it earlier so I went again and this is it right yeah yeah that's it yeah what's your front now yeah that's it and it's today what's your pronoun beyond he and she Dennis Baron he him his um on the front cover it's yeah so I mean of course it's the book that um that really is a history of the use of pronouns in English yeah and so he looks at it from a linguistic point of view but also from a literary point of view and you know you know the students make fun of me because of what I said about my love of dictionaries but you know a little bit in this that where he's talking about dictionaries and how you know that certain dictionaries weren't always the last word so to speak and so I love that he challenges the authority of the dictionary and the authority of language in any one period or even the kind of the authority of you know grammar nitpickers um that you know we sometimes experience when we talk about pronouns and what I love about his book is that he really gives us um he gives us a timeline for the way in which day has been used as a singular pronoun for example which he says it does exist in English it's always been used in this way um but he's also saying this isn't the last word right that that we're all here and we know our students are shaping the future of the language by um by determining how they want to be seen and and and referred to right it's a speech act but it's not just a speech act it's really about acknowledging and respecting the identity of the person with him you're in conversation with him you're engaging and so for me this this book was all about you know understanding the linguistic origins of pronouns and and pronoun use but I you know it's another way really of coming to the conversation with concern and respect yeah and I think I mean you always say this to me when you're talking about the reason like you really are really conscious of like doing that individual work for yourself so that when we get in these collective spaces and have to have these discussions that we are really more thoughtful about not having to ask questions of people around their identity when we could be doing that work and so I appreciate that so much I feel like that's so much a part of how we've always been able to work together it's like we sort of come to this common place of understanding um and I hope that you know that that's something we continue to do as we work together I'm really I'm always excited to get uh you know a book from you um uh you know and I know our future conversations we want to get more into talking about race and um yeah with a great book you gave me like a few months ago I think you gave it to all of the cabinet last summer around uh bias particularly it was a really amazing book that looked at and documented like um sort of like this long understanding of like bias and police brutality and all sorts of things I think our next conversation about this is going to be really exciting um so I you know I think another thing that you know this sort of leads me to think about that we wanted to talk about and unpack is you know you know what you know right now right speaking of racism um we're seeing you know sadly I think um and shockingly and maybe not so shockingly honestly um sort of this resurgence I don't even think it's like for some people it might seem like something that's happened for the first time but if we know anything about sort of the history of how Asian and Asian-American people have been discriminated against from the United States there has been this history of like the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 and the Japanese internment camps and now with COVID-19 there's been this rise of you know stigmatization of Asian Asian-American people and I think I think people really want to know what are we doing at Mount Holyoke to both counter that narrative and challenge you know that xenophobia and anti-immigrant rhetoric and so what are your thoughts about that what would you want to say and share yeah I mean I think it's been really very disturbing yeah to see to see sort of very clear evidence of both social and political use of of racist and xenophobic language in a situation where people are already fearful and so playing upon people's fears and and and and sort of encouraging a division or or encouraging blame um is is really just stoking the kind of racist and well there's sort of systemic concerns that already exist and in and in the middle of a pandemic where there's already significant loss grieving in communities of of color broadly so I think that anti anti-Chinese anti-Chinese American anti-Asian sentiment has sort of returned in a way that perhaps we haven't seen for for a long time although it's as you say it's it's systemic and historical as well and then I think that the fact that we're seeing larger numbers of people of color succumbing to the illness and dying and so the loss in those communities really is is is demonstrative of the same kind of systemic inequity yeah whether it's access to healthcare whether it's economic socioeconomic whether it's housing and and I just think that this is a moment for us to to support each other and to support those communities more than ever yeah I agree I think I mean I know I know you and I you know um and our colleagues who are often having to make some tough tough decisions that yeah around policies around um you know I mean around all sorts of things that have come up in this um in this time of the global pandemic you know it's been really hard I think sometimes to figure out like you know are we in the right position are we doing the right thing and and constantly asking ourselves like is this a just and right thing to do I mean I've been on so many conversations where I've like seen like you know that look on your face of like are we doing are we doing the right thing and I think um what did you just said about in particular how African-American people and Latinx people were seeing die at higher you know rates I mean just a lot of the data is showing us this and and wondering for me I know personally I'm always like am I doing am I in the right place at the right time and I feel like I am I feel like you know I'm doing boom part of having this dialogue with you is knowing that sometimes we have to be in a place where we can actually influence right those who might be shape policy one day you know transform how we do this work um and and and we know that Matt Holey could produce leaders for you know I mean for you know I don't know for over 100 years are you like yeah nearly 200 yeah almost 200 years right thank you so it's really important to recognize that you know this is an important time where we can actually speak to these issues and think more critically about how we address these issues and so I'm glad to hear you say that you know at Mount Holyoke we absolutely believe that it's important to say that we don't believe that these stereotypes around Asian Asian American people should ever be accepted and we reject them holistically um and that we will continue to hold um many of our community members who might be experiencing loss right now in our thoughts um going forward if you think a little bit about like and I think we'll wrap up maybe with this last one and then think you know I know we'll be in our next video talking more about the you know book bias and talking more about um kind of our own growth and journeys around some of those other more difficult topics but if you think about like why it's so important to have a day like boom or a day that focuses on learning about diversity what for you is important both personally and professionally about this day and about learning about diversity equity inclusion what would you say as a kind of summative statement to close it out so when you know when we were thinking about boom the idea was that it was a learning conference right that we were learning together um and that this was an opportunity for people to join the conversation wherever they were however much they'd read or however much work they'd done on their own however little they knew um and to be in conversation with others like and unlike them um and to sort of grow personally in terms of empathy and understanding around the issues of race and gender particularly um in our context um and so right well and probably national identity too given that we're such a global community and we've had an emphasis on that last year so for me i think that as an educational institution what we're trying to do is to support people's our students intellectual aspirations their professional aspirations as well clearly but this is also about personal growth right who we become when we're in college and when we're engaged in learning we're always growing and so the idea that we could have this moment of learning together learning from each other and having our student sort of turning the tables a bit and having the students who want to lead the conversation um for the faculty the staff and for their peers so that that notion of of really learning from from each other in ways that are structured and unstructured and that really move really move the conversation forward yeah well i want to thank you so much for participating in this conversation with me so yeah i know um it did it honestly does feel like someone's videotaping one of our regular i know i know it's true snacks because you're always giving me snacks which is amazing i'm always do you know i eat lunch i have to and you always come off the lunch like why that you're already i know i know i always appreciate it but i i want to say i think like for me i think it you know it really has been an honor to do this work in this community and i hope you all can see my boom excellent i'm particularly excited about boom this year because we are um you know yama shoa is a time of reflection for many people around uh now uh holocaust remembrance day and we are um definitely featuring the stories of holocaust survivors um and being really conscious and thoughtful about the reflection piece related to that it's also ramadan um has just begun and so we are thinking a lot about um in particular challenging a somophobia with some of this because we have then we have sessions on trans 101 and all the things we've talked about so i think it's going to be a great day it will be virtual and it's going to be an opportunity for people to engage with each other virtually until we can all be in the same place our mo home together again one day so that would be so good it will be so i will be so happy to see everyone back here i know i know i can't wait to see you in person i'm going to give you a big high five for like the excellent i wonder what you're doing for snacks these days so yeah you don't want to know so thank you so much you haven't all right so great talking to you always wonderful talking to you java okay take care