 Alright, here we are. I think this is live now. Just people in the comments section here. We started five minutes early because we thought why not. People in the comments section, can you hear me clearly? Just want to make sure that we're live. I'm not sure if it's come up live here yet. Hey, can you guys hear me? Daniel? Simple smoothies. I can see you coming in here. You hear me? Okay, sweet. So I guess we're live. Alright, so here I've got Nico. Found Nico on Instagram here and he's kindly decided to have a discussion with me. More like a debate, I guess we're going to have. Nico likes to argue and from what I know, let's just talk about how this come about because it's pretty funny, really. Someone actually made a post, a professional fighter actually made a post about veganism not being a diet, being a philosophy. Some of my friends at Plant Based News made an article. I went over to his page and realized he was following me and I was like, oh cool. So I went and looked through the comments section, left a comment and I seen yours there and you had a comment that said, what about the crop deaths? And then I commented on it. Yeah, okay. So that's kind of how this come about. And yeah, we started to get it not there and I was like, why don't you just come? Because last night I was actually quite full of energy and I was like, why don't you come on my Instagram live and we'll have the debate. And you were out at that time. So we actually, we just decided to do it here like this. But anyways, another thing to note is that Nico, you actually did a plant based diet at one stage and you just felt sick or something and then you come off of it. Is that kind of the story? Yeah, pretty much. You felt, yeah, because seeing that you said that you left vegetarianism or plant based dietism? Well, I kind of went back and forth between the two, mainly vegetarian. So you're eating eggs and dairy and honey and things like this? Well, like, for all right, so I was vegetarian for about six months and throughout that whole time I would eat cheese occasionally. But there was a few months where I was like strict, like none of that shit. Yeah. Okay, we can talk about that later. But for now, I guess we will just get into it because there's a few things that you, there's a few things that you wanted to sort of, I guess arguments that you will put forth to poke holes in the philosophy of veganism. Yeah. And I'll probably just let you state of maybe make an opening statement and maybe I'll, I'll kind of respond. And we can just have a free flowing conversation from there. Yeah. And we'll try to keep it as civil as possible. We'll go for about an hour, guys, and see where it goes. So yeah, if you want to make your, your statement, Nico. All right, well, I just want to start off on a positive note. I want to congratulate you for being sober. So on your bio. So and also your videos are really well made. And I think you're remarkably consistent in your arguments, which I think that's important. Anyway, so I guess the crop deaths thing, I have a few articles I pulled up here. Okay, this is an article, according to Michael Archer, he's a, he went to the school of biological earth and environmental sciences. He has his PhD. Yes. And according to him, hey, I'll just read considering I think you can, I think you can basically share your screen. If you go down the bottom here, if you wanted to share your screen, I think you, you can share the article with us if you like. All right, I think it should be shared. Yeah, I'll add it to screen. Okay. Here we go. So if you want to go to the top of that, so we can see. Oh, is this where, is this the part where you want to read? Yeah, I'll just read this quick. Okay, go for it. All right. Hence, consider only the killing related to mouse plagues and taking the most conservative estimate, at least 100 mice are killed per hect, I don't know that is a hectare. About an acre, I guess, whatever, to grow grain at average yields of about 1.4 tons of wheat with 13% of wheat representing usable protein. This equates to at least 55 centian animals lost to produce 100 kilograms of usable plant protein. That's 25 times more killings than to produce the same amount of raised plants beef. And I have a few more. Well, are they okay? It seems like you've got more of the same argument. Are you going to stick with this 25 times more animals argument in Australia? I also want to bring up the bees. You want to talk about bees? Okay. Yeah. Shall we keep this to keep this on point? Shall we just stick with this one first and then move on to bees? Sure. Yeah, because I think, otherwise, we're going to maybe, basically, let's just get your argument straight here. You believe that, you've shown me an article, but I wanted to get your statement, like against veganism. Are you saying that vegan diets cause more death than eating a non-vegan diet? Is that your position? And therefore, people should just not be vegan. They should eat meat-based diets, and they would kill less animals. I want to know what your position is. Why do you think your position is stronger ethically? We were messaging earlier. The actual reason I'm mainly anti-vegan is because of health. I don't think it's a healthy diet, but that's a separate argument. This is just kind of like, I also think the ethical thing doesn't hold up when it's held under scrutiny. Well, what is your position against veganism? Are you saying that it causes more suffering, more deaths, a higher number of deaths than just a normal non-vegan diet? Is that your position? I want to be clear on what you're actually saying here. Yeah, I guess I would say both of those things, more deaths, more suffering. There's more deaths in a vegan lifestyle. Is that your position? I mean, according to this article, yeah. Okay. Well, the article doesn't represent non-vegan lifestyles. The article represents a small part in Australia where there's a mouse plague. So, I mean, that doesn't represent... When I'm advocating, I'm advocating to the entire earth. Yeah. And we can take instances of things happening on farms. You can do that, but it doesn't extrapolate out to all farms. And what I would say to that article is it compared protein content from wheat to beef, which is nonsense because it's a false equivalent. So, you can't just take a low-protein plant product and equate it to like a high-protein beef product. So, the equation on that is wrong anyway, because when you're comparing these things, you have to do it by calories. And they didn't do that. So, obviously, wheat's a low-protein, isn't it? And also, that didn't factor in the fact that where do you think the wheat in Australia is going? Do you think it's just going to vegans? What do you think the chickens and the pigs and dairy cows and the feedlot animals eat in Australia? They eat what? Wheat. Don't know. So, that wheat crop is so big and vast because, you know, like for instance, Australian pork producers rely on domestically grain. So, 50% of the animals' requirements are domestically grown grain. And then if you go to like chickens, what do you think chickens are eating in the factory farms in Australia? And you're not even from Australia, are you, Nico? No. I'm actually from Texas, if anyone's curious. You're from Texas. Okay, that's cool. So, for example, you're saying that this wheat crop kills more animals, but human beings aren't even consuming all of that wheat for starters. Like, you know, like obviously, you know that animals, the vast majority of animals are factory farmed. You agree with that there? Yeah, that's true. Do you agree with that? Yeah, so in America, it's 99%. All right, well then, say, I mean, obviously, you don't agree with this, but from my perspective, all right, well, then we should encourage people to eat grass-fed beef because there wouldn't be as all those crop deaths from all the wheat and monocropping that's really kind of unnecessary. Yeah, I just think it's statistically impossible to feed everyone 7 billion people on earth grass-fed beef. Like, what do you think this is? Like, it's statistically impossible. Do you know how much acreage grass-fed animals, and when you say grass-fed beef, I want to ask you because I've looked into this for a while. I don't know how long you've looked into this, Nico. So, I'll grant you some charity there, I mean, but with grass-fed beef, what are you saying when you mean grass-fed beef? Are you saying, are you picturing a cow putting their head down on the grass and eating the grass off the ground? Is that what you're picturing? Yeah. Okay, and that's what you believe grass-fed beef is? I mean, when I go to the farm, that's what they're doing. Okay, so you go to a specific farm. Yeah. And you talk to these people when they say, these animals are just eating grass off the ground their entire life. Yeah. Do you ever see big bales of hay at that farm? I think I do, yeah. Okay. Where do you think those bales of hay come from? I don't know. Well, they harvest that hay to feed to the cows, and that's still grass-fed. Interesting. Well, let me finish for a second because the reason that's a problem for your position is that when you say vegans cause crop deaths or vegans cause combined harvest to deaths, and you say, I eat grass-fed cows and everyone else should too, when you run a combined harvester over a field, you say vegans are killing all these animals, but it's okay to feed a cow, which need about 10 bales of that hay a week. I don't know how many, I mean, they need a lot. Let's just say a cow needs a lot. They have high energy demands, especially when they're being raised for meat, and especially for dairy because when they're pregnant and they're producing milk, they're producing milk like 10 to 12 times more milk than they usually would, so they have extremely high energy demands. So they're eating huge amounts of food, harvested hay if you're just getting grass-fed, but also a part of grass feeding these cows. I've looked into America grass-fed standards as well. For it to pass as grass-fed, it can also be, and you can look this up, everyone at home, you can give them something called pre-grain crops, and it's considered grass because it's at the pre-dose stage. So the grass hasn't actually grown into the little grains yet. They harvest it before then, and they feed it to the grass-fed cows. So that's incurring the same problem as growing crops to feed human beings, except on a much larger scale, because you can imagine cows are a lot larger than us. And if your position is we should encourage people to just eat grass-fed beef, which is statistically impossible with the land mass anyway. And you'd have to deforest literally every bit of forest land we have left. Not only that, it would just increase the amount of crops we'd need to grow and harvest for them. All right, well, back to the farm thing. I'm pretty sure I'll have to look into it. I'm pretty sure it's like a 90% of the dye is grass and maybe whatever percent is from the hay. Can you show me the farm and the feeding protocol? But what you're actually doing here is you're advocating for your dye over vegan lifestyle across the board. So what I want to actually do is, because I don't know actually what you eat, what do you eat? So we're clear on what you're... So do you believe your diet is more ethical than a vegan lifestyle? I just want to know. Is that okay if you could let us know what you eat on a day-to-day basis? Like generally, if you're okay to say that, because we are arguing mostly about diet, because that's... So I follow a paleo diet, so I eat a lot of meat, honey. What type of meat? Beef, mostly beef. Mostly beef and chicken? No, I like to fish, catch my own fish. You don't eat any chickens at all? If my parents make some chicken, I'll eat it, but I don't... It's not my choice, you know, I'd prefer beef. So if I do eat chicken, can you hear me? Yeah, yep, okay, go. Yeah, so if I do eat chicken, it's like if my parents make some or something, it's not my choice. I'm like, beef is my go-to. Okay, but when you go out to dinner or you go out and have takeaway and stuff... I don't really go out that often. So you refuse to eat when you go out? I don't really... I haven't been out in like a year, dude. Oh well, okay. So you don't order takeaway or you don't order delivery food, you just make your own beef and eat vegetables, basically. Not a lot of vegetables. Yeah, I've been kind of off and on the eggs. Okay, so you eat eggs, that's okay. And then so it's just any pork, pork steaks, pork chops, bacon. Yeah, okay, occasionally. Do you eat bacon? I mean, occasionally it's just basically part of your regular diet, isn't it? I mean, twice a week, twice a week, three times a week. I'm saying like once a month, man, like... You only eat bacon once a month? Yeah. Wow. So I'm just trying to get an idea of what you're advocating as an ethical diet, so that because I know what 99% of Americans are doing, they're eating factory farmed with 99% of the animals in America where you're from are farmed in factories. Most of the dairy, like the dairy cows, like the beef over there is like, I mean, they feed lots and you know, and then the chickens, the egg layers, the pigs, like you'd know that's that's statistic, right? Yeah. But at the start of the conversation, you were like, you said that it's actually more ethical just to not be vegan because vegans cause all this suffering and death. Well, I have a few other articles we can we can talk about. Okay. We've got, okay. Sorry, I let you finish. But yeah, back to the health thing. Like I really, like I haven't researched the ethical thing a whole lot and... We can move on to health, but I want to get this out the way first. Like I want to get your diet out the way first, so I know what you're actually presenting. You're saying beef, chicken, eggs, bacon. Do you eat bread? Paleo diet has put you eat nuts and fat and fruits and vegetables. I kind of stay away from nuts, but yeah, some fruits, some potatoes, some carrots. Potatoes. So you eat plant foods as well. Yeah. I kind of minimal. I find I do better with my health on a lower plant-based diet. That's very interesting. I've heard of this before. But so basically you're focusing your calories on animal products. Yeah. And you feel that that's more ethical to do that? Or is it just because it's better for your health? Because I want to find out whether you're doing this for an ethical thing like I am, or whether you're actually eating meat for your health and all that, and you're trying to justify it. So I think there are two different things. Well, I hate to have a claim that I'm not 100% sure about. Like I have a few articles here that suggest that veganism would result in more deaths, more suffering. But I want to say I'm 100% like, oh, this article is 100% true. And I'm like 100% sure this is true. You know, I'm like, yeah, I mean, I mean, I can, let me see how this is going to work. Denyre. I mean, I don't know if you have seen this. Where is it? Let's see if this works. Chuck that there. No, Chuck it there. Ah, uh-huh. Okay, let's go here like that. I will share that with you. Where's it going to be? Prem has lost permission. Oh, what the hell? Anyway, there's, I can put it in the, that's annoying. Anyway, there's this article here. I'll just send it to you. I can put it in here. Maybe I need to turn on my permissions, but it's pretty important because it's a, it's actually in response to those articles that vegans kill more animals. It's called the number of animals killed to produce 1 million calories in eight food categories. And it's the number of animals killed by slaughter and harvest in eight food categories. And they actually calculate the deaths per calorie because that's important. It's the number of deaths to produce 1 million categories in eight food, in eight, 1 million calories, so I don't have to get my tongues twisted. At the top there is chickens. Huge amount of chickens. These are just land animals, by the way. It doesn't even have fish on here. And it doesn't factor in bobby calves killed. It doesn't factor in little male chicks killed in the egg industry, but chickens are the highest. The next is eggs. The next is beef. And beef is third highest because of harvest. Fourth highest is pork, which are actually pigs that have been factory farmed in horrible conditions. The majority of pigs are factory farmed, even in the UK here. When you would think UK, this is pristine, you know, high welfare nonsense. It's 90% of pigs are factory farmed here in America, it's probably higher. Then it's milk, then it's vegetables, fruits, then grains. Have you got that study up? I don't. But I have a hypothetical question for you. Yeah, but what do you think about, one sec, I want to turn on my permissions for sharing, because we can't keep jumping around without addressing this animal. I want to send it to you somehow. Copy it. This kind of happens in these type of arguments is like, we just send articles back and forth. And so that's kind of why I wanted to say, I just wanted to suggest a hypothetical question. Because we can, for sure. You go, ask your question, for sure. I don't want to jump around from different subjects. That's all I was trying to do. So we keep on the flow, because I was trying to find out what you were eating. I was trying to find out what your actual position against veganism is, because it seems a little bit not solid. I don't know exactly what you're trying to put forward. So then I can attack it, because if I don't know exactly what you're trying to say, and specifically, because I could just throw, look, there's a rat being poisoned in a cornfield. Like there's a picture, like, okay, but where cornfield, where are we talking? How many rats? Where's the data? So I just want to make sure that we are specific about what we're talking about, and then we can move on to the next thing, and then we can go on to the other points that you've got. But yeah, okay, ask your hypothetical, and then, yeah, we'll probably just stay on crop deaths, maybe. Yeah. All right. So say hypothetically, a vegan diet and a non-vegan diet caused the same amount of deaths and suffering hypothetically. Would you still be vegan? Would there still be a point in being vegan? If both diets caused the same amount of death? Yeah, and suffering actually equal hypothetically. Yes, I would still be vegan, and I'll tell you why, because this is a big reason of why I'm vegan as well, and it's because the context surrounding animal agriculture is intrinsically immoral. The subjugation, forced breeding, factory farming, and slaughter factories surrounding animal agriculture, in my view, completely morally distinct from the animals and insects who die as a result of, say, industry deaths. So are you saying that accidental deaths don't matter? Of course they matter, but they're surrounded by a completely different context. I mean, car accidents matter. Are those people die? That's horrible. We want to reduce car accidents, but we still drive cars, and we still operate in civilization because we don't let car accidents stop us from operating in a civilization. I'm not anti-civilization. I'm not like an anarchist. I believe civilization creates well-being. I don't want to be back in the Stone Ages, where there's no hospitals and medicine and clean running water and transport and crops that produce food for humanity to eat, which we need. And I don't think that if insects, let's just say insects and animals are coming to those crops to destroy them, and we have to protect those crops because they can't be reasoned with like you and I. I can say, hey, bro, stay away from my crops or I'll shoot you. You can't say that to these insects and to say whatever other animals. I mean, I'm not really sure about this crop death things. We have to be specific about what type of crop death you're talking about, whether it's harvesters, whether it's trapping animals, whether it's whatever. But they're surrounded by a completely different context to walking up, shooting an animal in the face, cutting up their body, throwing pigs inside of a gas chamber after they've lived their entire life inside of a factory farm. Murder is completely different context to manslaughter and to accidents. So yeah, I would still be a vegan, but that's not what we're faced with. We're actually faced with the fact that non-vegans lifestyles are causing just in terms of food, 74 billion land animals to be tortured and killed every year, and between one and three trillion marine animals. So that they're alone. And plus, when you factor in the crops that they're fed. Now, 50% of the farm fish, 50% of the fish people eat are farmed fish. So they're eating crops as well. And then most animals are factory farms. So most of them are eating grains and harvested crops. And there's a massive study by Dr. Joseph Pora Oxford University. It said 83% of farmland is used by animal agriculture, and we could reduce that farmland if we all adopted a vegan diet and you could reduce it by 75%. So when we're talking about reducing farmland, you're reducing animals being poisoned and trapped. Because if you think animals are just being trapped and poisoned for crops, it's just not true. I can pull up an article right now where one of the record rat catching, so they sent dogs in to do ratting, was at a pig farm because the rats get into the pig feed. So they murder all the rats. And so basically, all of these problems, like they also shooting animals to protect animal farms, of course they are. Haven't you seen people hunting down predators to protect cows and shooting whatever animal they want to protect their animal farms? And anyway, any crop related death is magnified because we have, I don't know how many animals are on Earth at the moment, but it's at minimum 10 times us because there's 74 billion being slaughtered every year just land animals alone. And we're not factoring in fish and farmed fish because they eat grain as well. So when you factor in all that, crop deaths are magnified by a lot, a hell of a lot. Then if we just ate the plant foods directly, and that's why I'm advocating on a world level. I want the world to move towards a vegan lifestyle because it just creates so much left suffering and death. Do you know much about the consequences of monocropping? Yes. And this just falls straight into what I just said. Most of the monocrops, like a large proportion, I think it's over 50% of the grain is being just fed straight to animals in factory farms and stuff like this. So like this monocropping problem is not a vegan issue. It's an issue to do. Sorry? It's not. It's not just a vegan issue. No. And when you think about the amount of monocropping we need, it's to feed the billions, tens of billions of land animals on Earth right now. And you know how many chickens there are on Earth? Well, we can talk about how many are slaughtered. I think it's about 58 billion or 60 billion. But monocropping does have to do with veganism because there's almonds, avocados, like we use monocropping, we monocrop those and we use bees to pollinate them. And bees actually don't do well if they're only getting their pollen from one plant. And so they die. 50 billion bees died in the winter was it 2017, 2018, 2018, 2019. 50 billion bees for your avocados and your berries and almonds, almond milk. Okay, so we can move on to that for sure. But did you just skip over that entire speech that I did about the mass production of animal products requiring way more land and crop land. So all of these crop deaths are magnified by animal. Would you concede that point before we move on to bees? That is true. But like I said earlier, I'm for the grass fed beef. So basically, well, you're not because you eat all animal products and fruits and vegetables. And I already explained to you that it's statistically impossible to just feed the entire population grass fed beef in isolation to everything else. At any way, like they just need too much land. And it's still inherently wrong to chuck a bunch of cows in a slaughterhouse when we can eat plant foods, which we can veganically grow and or vertically farm. But which doesn't cause a safe problem. We killed 50 billion bees though. Okay, so we can talk about bees though as well. But would you can at least concede that more of these crop related problems are existing because of animal agriculture? Well, not according to these articles that I have. And that's what I was saying earlier is we can throw articles back and forth like I can throw an article. I just I just asked you to concede that these animals, there's tens of billions of land animals being slaughtered for meat and dairy and eggs, yeah, every single year and farmed fish as well. And they need to eat something, don't they? Yeah. So where are they growing all that stuff? Well, I mean, that that's what's happening. But that's something that I don't know where they're growing all this stuff. If where they're growing at all, they're growing it in where monocrops or this just comes up the air that is eat grass off the ground factory farms, chickens just eat grass off the ground. No, no, I get what you're saying now. Yeah, no, there's definitely monocrops that are fed to animals. Yes, that's true. Of course. Well, what else are they eating? Yeah, I mean, I was almost confused. I was like, what are you trying to say? No, no, so basically, I'm not trying to be funny or anything with you, man. I'm actually just trying to get you to to understand what I'm saying. Because I get it. I've been, you know, looking into this a little bit longer as well. But like, those animals are eating vastly more calories than we are. They're just they stay out and number us by so many. Like, you know, when you look at the soy in the Amazon, like something like 50% of that is being fed to chickens in the West. There are people like, oh, vegans are eating tofu, though. It's like, what do you mean? That soy is going to be like, huge amounts of soy meal are going to feed animals in animal agriculture. What I'm saying is that humans, there's only 7 billion, 8 billion of us, right? And we're growing. And do you think it's insane to grow all of this food use 83% of cropland? No, not cropland, farmland. I think it only produces something like 83% of farmland produces something like 18% of calories in this Guardian article here. So let me just look at it. Yeah. And it's not an article. It's an article on a big study done by Oxford University. You can look it up. The article is called Avoiding Meat and Dairy is the single biggest way to reduce your impact on earth. And they say 83% of farmland is used for animal agriculture and only provides 18% of protein. So incredibly insane, unsustainable use of resources when you're growing all this food, using all this land and feeding all to all these animals and water just to get a little bit of steak. And you can reduce that farmland on earth by 75% by adopting a vegan diet. And that means reducing monocropping. That means reducing crop related deaths. It's just reducing slaughterhouses. Are you against, I just want to know if you're against factory farming? Like at least we can get that off the table. I'm against factory farming. Okay. So at least we got you there. You're against factory. So you're against basically most of animal agriculture. Well, back to the grass-fed cow thing. You said that's impossible. And yeah, I think it probably would be impossible to feed 7 billion people grass-fed cows. But I think we could try to lean into that more. Like I think you would agree that that would be better than factory farming. I mean, well, it depends. It's better for the environment. It's like, you know, I think it's worse for the environment, man. They take up more land and it's worse. But the carbon goes back to the soil. Intensive farming, I think. I'm fairly sure like intensive farming is actually better for the environment. It takes up less land and which is horrible because it's more cruel. It ruins the soil. Intensive farming. Yeah. Monocropping ruins the soil. And when you have- Are you talking about monocropping? Monocropping for factory farms. Monocropping to feed factory farmed animals. Monocropping in general. But I'm saying grass-fed beef is actually good for the environment. The carbon goes back into the soil. I don't know about that. And I think that they're a major contributor to, you know, climate change and global warming and things like this. And they also take up massive amounts of land, which is deforestation and species extinction as well. So you're talking about leaning towards grass. Why would I lean towards grass-fed beefs chopping down all the forest and wiping out species and, you know, and then slaughtering animals unjustifiably? I think it's unjustifiable to throw a cow in the slaughterhouse so you can eat their body. I just think that that can't be justified. I don't know how like- What if you're like me and you will literally like be unhealthy if you don't eat me? Like if I don't eat me, I'm going to be depressed. I'm going to have panic attacks. And I know this from experience as someone that tried to plant base diet. So what would be your response to that? Should I just suffer? Should I just like be depressed and not eat meat? Well, I don't want you to suffer, but I don't want you to stab a cow in the neck and eat their body either. I don't think it's just one or the other, bro. I honestly don't believe that. We don't believe I got sick from being vegan or plant base. I mean, I could get sick from eating anything. I don't know how you designed your diet. I don't know what you were eating. I don't know what's going on inside your stomach. I don't know what type of, you know, whether you've got something pre-existing and then you increased your fiber and it caused problems. I don't know that. And I don't, I'm not sure if you know that either unless you had tests done. Did you have blood tests done? I had a blood test done after I was vegan, kind of switching back and I did have a blood test, but you didn't have a blood test before you went vegan and then after you went vegan to see the difference. Yeah, I just have one from after. Okay. And what did your blood test show? Low vitamin D, but that honestly was because I was depressed and staying inside. Okay. But as soon as I started eating meat, my health came back and a lot of my vegan friends, like I guess we're going into the health thing now, a lot of my vegan friends, I see they're unhealthy. Before we do, can you just admit that factory farming is immoral and get off the table for this debate? Yeah, of course. So you're morally, you and I are both morally against factory farms together. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. So why are you anti-vegan? One thing we can agree on. Why are you anti-vegan? I spend most of my life focusing on factory farming. I don't think the solution is to grow monocropped almonds and avocados so we can, it's causing earthquakes in Mexico because they use so much water for the avocados. Well, if avocados are the problem, then you don't have to eat them, bro. I know, but if we're encouraging veganism, then we're encouraging, oh, eat all these almonds and eat all these avocados and almond milk, and don't worry about the consequences it's having on the environment because it's fine, no animals are dying. So do you think there's a moral distinction between animal agriculture, slaughterhouses, let's just say slaughterhouses all across the world and factory farms all across the world to feed people's bacon addiction and growing avocados and what was the other one, almonds? Do you think there's a moral distinction there? Do you think one's incredibly worse? I think people need meat to be healthy, so I don't think it's an addiction. That wasn't the question. I know, but you called it an addiction and I just think that's really dumb. Who called it addiction? You said bacon is an addiction, like these people are, it's they're just doing this to appease their bacon addiction. No, people need meat, there's meat to be healthy. It's a necessity, but do you agree with the question that I asked because you skipped over it? Because you're not answering my question, so I said, do you think it's worse to have factory farms all over the world with billions of animals suffering and dying in slaughterhouses or growing almonds and avocados? Well, that's killing a lot of bees, like I said earlier, 50 billion bees died. Well, let me finish. So 50 billion bees, I don't know if you know about Albert Einstein, but you said when the bees die, that's the end of civilization. So if we're killing bees to support some vegan diet, then we're supporting like the collapse of civilization, man. So that's worse than what we're doing to the animals right now? You want to kill 50 billion bees to grow your avocados? I don't think that's a good thing. Okay, so we can talk about bees and avocados with avocados and almonds. You agree, factory farming is bad, so you basically just abolished animal agriculture if you want to do that, because that's where majority, the vast, vast majority of everyone's eggs, chicken flesh, pig flesh, then you're just leaving free-ranging animals, which is like, it would leave, you wouldn't even probably be able to get any meat, it would be that expensive and it would probably just phase out. Well, it wouldn't be like an overnight thing, you wouldn't just be like, bam, all the factory farms this year. Of course not, of course not, but at least you're on the side of basically abolishing animal agriculture, but yeah, avocados and almonds. So what are they actually doing with these bees in this situation? Do you know? Yeah, they release them and basically they're slaves, I mean, they're making them, do they work for them? How are they slaves? Well, I know what you're talking about, I mean, they're not, do you know where they use, I want to ask you, do you know where they use these bees from, predominantly? Bees from? So basically what Nico is talking about is they move bees around and they release them to pollinate crops, that's what you're talking about, hey Nico? Yeah. Okay, and do you know where they use these bees from? What do you mean? Where do they get these bees from? Like, what do you mean? Where do they get the bees from? Where do they just pull them out of the air? Where do you think they come from? Well, yeah, they have to like, I guess find a, or I guess they have a harvest or some shit, right? I'll give you a clue, you know, vegans don't consume honey. Yeah. But I mean, you're still killing bees. We don't consume honey and they use honey bees to do this. Yeah, but you're still like eating almonds and you're eating avocados and bees have to die in order for you to- So it doesn't matter, insects die so I can have a sandwich, I know that, I already know that. Why would I categorize these, why would I categorize the deaths of these insects? Oh, can you hold on a second? Okay, okay. There's someone at the door. Okay, no worries, I'm just gonna- Eric. Eric, answer the door. Well, just go around. Tell them you're trying to have a debate here with Joel. Sorry, sorry about that. So basically, why would I categorize, what I'm trying to say to you, I know insects die for vegan food. We already discussed that. Veganism is not, do you think veganism is the position that we cause, do you think we hold the position that we call zero harm? Some people act like that. Well, no, that's not, that's not, well, they know- You never read a vegan, you never read a vegan that was like, I don't cause any deaths, my vegan diet is perfect. They don't, bless them, but they don't know what they're talking about. Yeah, but those people exist though. They do exist, but I'm not one of them. I know that a lot of things I do cause harm. A lot of things I do cause harm. I think it's justified harm. Okay, I think that a wheat field where I get my bread from probably kills more insects than bees being transported to pollinate crops. I think that the people who are doing that need those bees to survive that process because they're pollinating the crops. But when you spray pesticide on crops, you're killing the insects. And we already know that. We already know that. We understand that we have to protect our crops for civilization or basically all our crops die out and we die out. So I'm not for abolishing civilization and protecting crops from insects. So if I'm okay with it there, why wouldn't I be okay with it here? Which is less bad. It's transporting bees to pollinate crops. And you know that's not just almonds and avocados they use bees to pollinate for. It's heaps of different fruits and vegetables. And it's just, they fly around, they pollinate. But the problem is these bees, they're using are coming from the honey industry, which is like they exploit the bees. They forcibly impregnate the queen bee. They clip the wings off and keep her in the hive. They take the honey they spend all this time making. So there's ways of pollinating which would include wind pollination where they wouldn't need to use bees. But the reason they are is because there's so many honey bees from the honey industry that is grabbing them and moving them around. And anyway, I don't see it as even morally worse than insect deaths in crops. So like I just, I wouldn't know what the argument is about. You don't care about the 50 billion bees that died in the winter of 2018 to 2019? In where? Where did this happen? In the almond production field. In California. Yeah, in California. Yeah. I mean, how did they die? Let me read this thing. So I'm going to ask you questions about what arguments you're putting forward because I want to know, want to get to the bottom of them. I want to know how they died. Did they gas them? Well, here it says that the only way to support such an artificially high consumption load is to send bees to pollinate the almond flowers. It's almost like sending bees off to war. One of the most lucrative sources of beekeeper revenue is now renting out farms to almond producers. And similar to war, this process is decimating the bee population. So I think what it is is that when you have a bee and it's only getting its pollen from one plant, it doesn't get enough vitamins from the separate plants and he's a wide variety of plants in order to survive. So they don't get the nutrients they need and then they die. They get it. I just told you they're getting these bees from the honey industry. What do you think their life is like in the honey industry? Probably just as bad as the vegan industry. Well, actually they die when they're. They kill them in the honey industry. They kill them in the vegan industry. Deliberately. No, no, not for pollinating. They need. Oh, they accidentally died. No biggie. Well, that's that's we made them. We made them monocrop. Actually, it's like an accident. You're making them. You're having a bee feed off of monocrops. You're basically sending it to die. Well, they know that the bees are going to die. I already told you, Nico, like, and I don't know if this slipped past you. Insects die for plant production. We know that. So, but you seem to not care. Like, how is this morally distinct from insects dying in any crop that we eat? Why aren't you attacking that? If anything, they're using pesticides to kill those insects. And you're more worried about accident bees accidentally dying, being transported to fly and pollinate crops. Like, I mean, 50 billion, 50 billion bees. You're acting like it's not a big deal. That's like a big fucking number, dude. Do you know how many chickens die every year? 50 billion, 50 billion highly sentient chickens. I would say bees are more important than chickens. Oh, really? And how important are you? And how important are you? What do you do for the earth, but destroy it? What do I do for the earth, but destroy it? How important are you? You think you're more important than a cow? You ever think about that? I think a bee is more important than I am. One bee is more important than both of us combined. You had a sore tummy. And you think that makes it justified to stab a cow to death. How important are you? I don't think I'm that important. Okay, well, okay. So basically, I already know plant foods kill insects. I already talked about justified versus unjustified harm for civilization. Yeah, 50 billion bees is okay. 50 billion is, what's that number? I don't know if trillions of insects are dying for plant production all across the world. And that pesticide use on those insects is enhanced. And magnified for feeding animals, the animals that people eat. So, and also 1 to 3 trillion marine animals murdered every single year for non-veganism. So basically, yeah, how many bees do you think die in the honey industry, which is something that we boycott? How many bees do you think? Trillions, probably. It would be up there. I mean, if 50 billion just die pollinating, how many die in the honey industry? And those bees are coming from the honey industry anyway, which we already boycott. So, yeah. I mean, I don't know what you're trying to pin on me here. Well, I just don't get why you seem to not think the honey thing is a big deal. Or the bee thing is a big deal. I boycott honey because of the bees. I boycott honey because of the bees. I didn't mean to say honey. I meant like the monocropped avocados and almonds. Do you boycott honey because of the bees, if you care about bees so much? Well, I actually don't think that the process of getting honey is that harmful to the bees. I would say that the pollination is actually killing them and is much worse. When you extrapolate honey from a hive, if you take half the hive, they rebuild back the other half and they're fine. They don't do that in the honey industry. They take all their honey and replace it with glucose. Or if it's the properly done, they take half the nest. I didn't care about that. I care about what happens in the honey industry. I don't care about some backyard honey farmer. I care about the honey industry, which you probably wouldn't boycott. Do you check if honey is in your cereal if you care about the bees so much? I eat a lot of honey. I love honey. How can you be sitting here grilling me on bees dying for pollination and you eat their food? Yeah. And I don't harm them when I do it. You do the haus though. They eat honey. They don't kill the bees when they go in front of the nest. Ready to get the bees from the backyard farm. Is that what you're saying? I'll have to look into exactly the honey company. You buy it from the store where everyone else gets it from, bro. So this is what I mean. Like, if you cared about the bees so much, it wouldn't be supporting the honey industry because these bees are being exploited for their... What they get is the honey, the queen bee, and they cut off her wings and they leave her in the hive. All right? So she's basically enslaved. This is different to the pollen, just let them fly around. Like, she's enslaved and then they're creating all this honey and then they take the honey from them and then they end up gassing these bees as well. They kill the bees by gassing them. Yeah, when their productivity declines or whatever, they kill them all. So I mean, I don't focus much on honey to be honest with you, but like I said to you, why would you be pressing me on bee pollination when I already concede our diets don't cause zero harm? We know we cause insect deaths. It's justified for civilization to produce crops so we can survive. It's completely unjustified to put a cow in a slaughterhouse so you can eat their body. I want to ask you, have you got a response to that before I ask you this one other question that I want to ask you? And then we can go on to health, maybe. Yeah, can we just move on to health? What was the question again? Okay, I want to ask you basically, are you against killing humans? Depends. Okay, it depends on context, doesn't it? If someone's being aggressive towards me, I'm going to kill them. Just aggressive. I mean, maybe if you're in fear for your life, maybe you'd want to say that. It depends on the situation, man. It would depend if you'd have to give me an example. Okay, so I'm just saying, just say there's a human there grazing in a field, chilling out, and you walk up, put him in a truck, take him to a slaughterhouse, cut their head off, gut them, turn them into steak. That situation, would you be against that? Oh, yeah. Okay, but you're absolutely fine with it happening to cows, yeah? Yeah. Okay, I want to know why you have a big double standard there, why it's bad for humans, but it's completely morally fine for cows. Well, I value human life over all animal life. I care more if my brother dies than my dog dies. I don't know if you'd feel the same way. Same here. You do feel the same? It doesn't mean I'd stab the dog to death and eat them. Well, there's the answer. I value the human life more than the cow's life. Oh, well, so that doesn't mean I don't as well. I just don't think it's morally justified. I know, I'm just saying that there's your answer. Okay, so basically you value humans more, and therefore you think it's morally justifiable to stab the cow, yeah? I think it's morally justifiable because I need it. Necessity. Yeah. Okay, do you have any evidence that you need to eat meat to survive? Well, like I said, I was vegan, vegetarian, and my health suffered, and you can dismiss it and say it was just a stomach ache, but I know what I felt like, and I know that my brain doesn't function. Like, I don't function properly when I don't have meat. And so it's either eat meat or lie in bed and be depressed all day and have panic attacks. So like, and I see my friends too. I see my friends and they look unhealthy. So can I, you see your friend, so basically you're diagnosing your friends, are you with your eyes? Yeah, you can see vegans are unhealthy. I can see it in their skin. Just wondering, can you diagnose me? Do I look unhealthy to you? I think you look good right now. I've seen some videos where you looked a little bit worse. I mean, I could change your lighting and look worse. I mean, so could you. I mean, are you following vegan deterioration, are you? Yeah. Where she takes people's photos and makes them look shit, like she's just a propagandist. I mean, I see it with my eyes, dude. Like I see my friend, he's like lost 45 pounds, dude. He lost 45 pounds the most. What? Do you know the difference between an anecdote and research? Yeah, but anecdotes matter. Anecdotes, what leads to research? Well, when they take a large total of people, you can't just dismiss anecdotes. Well, I'm just saying, what do you think is a stronger? What do you think is stronger, like scientific data, or you've seen a guy, he lost weight, or you had a problem with your diet? Scientific data would be stronger, but anecdotes do matter. Like you can't just be like, oh, well, it just never matters. Well, I never said it never matters. I just said, what's stronger, scientific data or anecdotes, or you've seen a guy? It's not just one, though. I have like a lot of anecdotes. Like I have yet to meet a vegan that seems to know a decent amount about nutrition and seems to be in decent health. Well, I know a bunch of vegans that know a lot more about nutrition than both you and I put together, and they are doing absolutely fine. I know a lot of vegan doctors who know more about research than you and I put together, and they're doing absolutely fine, and they haven't gone ex-vegan. But basically, it doesn't matter who you know, because that's just an appeal to authority. But when you talk about research, I'm sure you've heard of the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. Yeah. I mean, do you think that they're a vegan organization? I haven't looked into them too much. Okay, well, I do know there are, I think it's the Seventh Adventist Church that they fund articles to promote like a plant-based, like they basically write the end of the article like, conclusion, this is good. And then they're like, all right, now make the research match that conclusion. Do you think they can get away with just making research match conclusions without being peer-reviewed? Well, I mean, studies can also be done incorrectly, even if they are peer-reviewed. Okay, yeah, that's okay. Yeah, I agree with that. Studies can be designed incorrectly. But do you disagree with the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics on that appropriately plan vegetarian, including vegan diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention of and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Do you disagree with their position statement on vegan diets? Yes. Okay. Do you have any data to back up your point? Do you know this position paper was backed by 117 sources, studies? Yeah, let me pull up some sources. Okay, so you disagree with the position of the American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics? I'm just wondering, and what about the British diet? I don't think veganism is healthy, especially not for a baby. I've heard of vegan children that die because their parents fed them fruits and vegetables. Oh, really? What did they feed them? Fruits and vegetables. And then the kid died because of the mouth. What did they feed the baby? Fruits and vegetables. What do you mean fruits and vegetables? Like a whole different array of whole fruit, plant-based, you know, what did they feed them? Lettuce? I think those parents. You only find the article? Yeah, I've seen the article. That's called an anecdote. The parents neglected their child. And fed them a vegan diet and it was freaking killed the kid. What do you mean a vegan diet? Do you know a vegan diet can consist literally of potato chips and Coke? That's a vegan diet. So when you say a vegan diet, you have to be specific about what you're talking about. There's a whole food plant-based diet. And then there's a vegan diet, which can be literally any variation of whatever processed plant crap you want. And then there's also, you can just have oil and lettuce as a diet. And that could be a silly vegan diet. So I don't know what they fed their child. I know vegan children are doing absolutely fine, growing strong. I know vegan athletes, vegan boxers, that guy that we started talking on was literally a world champion fighter who's a vegan for the last year. Have you seen his MMA fight though? His UFC, I think it was, I don't know if it was his UFC fight, but his MMA fight, he got fucking destroyed. So I know he's a meatie, does that get destroyed too? I'm sure he would destroy you with his left pinky finger. Oh yeah, so Dave Leduc is who we're talking about. Dave Leduc's been vegan for I think about a year. Okay, so when does deterioration start kicking in? It depends. I seem to deteriorate pretty quickly. I think if you try your hardest, you'd get all your blood work, you'd get all your supplements, you'd get all the best whole foods that you can. I would say three years you'd probably start deteriorating. That's my opinion. I could be wrong. I'm open to the idea of being wrong. I'm glad you are my friend because there is mountains of evidence and if you like anecdotes, I could throw a few your way too. People that are just much healthier than you, stronger than you, run faster than you, further than you. My friend Fiona Oaks owns a sanctuary. She's got hundreds of animals. She runs massive long-ass marathons. She did this massive three-day or four-day marathon, marathon desalbas across the desert with a massive backpack on. She's been vegan for like 40 years or something crazy like that. She could run circles around you, bro, but she eats a whole food plant-based diet. I'm just concerned. I believe that you're probably being genuine like when you say that you believe vegan diets messed you up really bad because maybe you did something. I don't know what happened with you, dude. We didn't run a little analysis on your diet back then. I don't know what happened before you started eating plant foods. I don't even know what type of vegan diet you ate because like I said, there's many different variations of a vegan diet. You could probably start by telling me what you were eating or something and maybe I could help you out there, but also it really wouldn't matter unless you actually cared about the injustice that happens to animals in a slaughterhouse so you can eat their body. I mean, if you don't care about that, why would you be motivated to try to stop harming them through your lifestyle as far as practicable as possible? I was interested in a plant-based lifestyle for spiritual reasons and I guess the ethic was kind of just like a bonus during that time for me. So you believe that putting dead animal, murdered animals into your body is bad for your spirituality? At the time I did, I don't believe that anymore. So, okay, okay. I think veganism is about altruism, like not wanting to be put in the animals, putting yourself in the animal's position and realizing that it's morally wrong. It's the reason, I believe it's kind of like an extension of human rights. It's not the same as human rights. Obviously, we need different needs as a human being, but we extend rights to each other. I'm sure you're against things like slavery and child abuse and we need universal human rights protecting us from other humans who value some human beings as lesser than and think women are here to be abused and that homosexuals don't deserve to live and we need universal human rights protecting us, don't we, from psychopaths and things like this, yeah? What do you mean by that, like laws? Yeah, do you believe that we should be recognized as persons protected by laws that are enforced by the police if people try to rob you of your rights? I'm actually an anarchist, but not in the sense that most people think anarchy is. So I don't believe in laws necessarily, but I believe in the principle of non-aggression, so I agree with you in that sense. Can you please explain to me what the principle of non-aggression is? So the non-aggression principle is the idea that you can defend yourself if someone is trying to break into your house or whatever. So that's basically the fundamental concept for anarchy. And what's the reverse of the non-aggression principle? What if someone is not trying to break into your house? What if they just stand in there? You don't have the right to rob them of their rights, to take their life from them? You don't have the right under your philosophy? No. So why on earth do you do it to innocent animals? Because I needed to be healthy, dude. We're already going over this. So, but okay, so let me ask you this then because you believe that what you're doing to animals in order to eat their bodies or what happens to animals on a mass scale in order to use their skin and eat their body parts and things that is morally wrong. Yeah. You're against factory farming for some reason. I believe it's because you believe animals have some type of moral value. Well, I think it's more, I mean, yeah, that's part of it, but it's also just like the conditions is unsanitary and they're unhealthy animals. Like you don't want to eat unhealthy animals. It's going to make you unhealthy. So you don't care about the suffering of the animals? I would like to minimize suffering. I wouldn't say like I care a lot. Like I'd prefer that the animal is killed quickly and painlessly, you know? Like if I was a deer, if I was a deer, I would rather get shot in the head by a hunter than mauled to death by a bear. You know what I mean? Like I want to minimize suffering if I'm going to eat an animal. I don't want to, like I'm not going to shoot an animal and just like watch it suffer. I'm going to like be like, all right, like I'm going to make sure this is quick, you know? You sound a lot like Jeffrey Dahmer because I like to put things in the human context. And when you're talking, I'm like, imagine if he was talking about killing a human here, I'm just going to make this quick. I'd rather shoot you than you be mauled by a bear. But like, it sounds crazy to me because I see animals as like non-human people, you know, they just look different. They might not be as complex in their intellect, you know, they might not be able to speak with this complicated voice box and things like this. But I just see them as non-human people who don't deserve to suffer and be executed for something as trivial as a sandwich. I'm actually not convinced that you care about their suffering and that you are just eating them because you believe you need to. I'm not convinced of that. I honestly think that you went not, you didn't go vegan for ethical reasons. So I'm just going to do that. You didn't go vegan for ethical reasons. Maybe you dabbled in a diet for some other type of reason, which is kind of what you alluded to anyway. And it wasn't really the animals driving it to begin with. And now that you've come off of it, you probably don't care too much about the animals either. But you said you're against factory farming, but not because of the animals suffering. So you kind of like, it's kind of like, I don't know, I'm trying to, I'm getting mixed messages from you, bro. Yeah, I'm probably like the strangest, like X vegan or whatever person you've had an argument with. I got pretty strange views, I guess. Yeah, I mean, but you got this non aggression principle, but it just, you throw it out the window when it comes to animals. You just pay for them to be stabbed and cut up into pieces. You know, in the egg industry, they macerate all the male chicks in a big blender. You're eating eggs and bacon is just a gas pig that suffered and died in the gas chamber, predominantly factory farmed. Chickens predominantly factory farmed in the US. I don't know where you're getting your chickens from. It's factory farmed animals. The only thing that I would question is maybe the beef. I don't know where you're getting your beef from, some farm anyway, but even then, I think it's completely morally unjustifiable to hang an animal up and cut their throat open just to eat their body. When you're eating fruits and vegetables anyway, and I don't know what type of diet you were eating, because I know some people that dabble in a plant-based diet, don't know what the hell they're doing, end up doing something really irresponsible and not well planned out and balanced, and just end up feeling like crap because they're not eating as many calories as they were before, because meat, dairy, eggs and cheese, all of these products have higher calorie density. And then when you go straight to plant foods, I don't know what type of plant foods you're eating. I don't know whether you're tracking your calories before and after. I don't know whether you had some pre-existing stomach condition that was exacerbated when you started eating more fiber. There's heaps of different variables of things that could have happened to you, but I don't know any of those things. But if you genuinely cared about the animals, you would be trying to find that out. You know what I mean? Like I would. If there's something wrong with me right now, bro, and I was like, look guys, something's going on with me, like I was eating plant foods and ate too much cow, I don't know, my stomach is messed up. I really want to fight this because I care so deeply about what's going on to all these innocent beings that I would try my best. You know what I mean? But I just don't, I'm just not feeling that from you. Yeah, I mean, I could try again, I thought about it, just as like maybe like an experiment, I'm pretty sure I would suffer again and it wouldn't be fun, but it would be like, it could be like monitored better. You know, it could be like, I could get blood work. I could like, you know, just like, kind of almost like an experiment on myself. Lots of like green smoothies, like, you know, bananas, berries, celery, spinach, quinoa. I was big on quinoa. That was like probably my staple shit tonic quinoa. Nuts, falafel, falafel was one of my favorites. So I used to go out, eat falafel. Shit, what else? Good old rice and beans, like, I don't know, like mostly like, I think it was a pretty well done diet. Like there are a few process things here and there, like some protein bars. I actually found it really hard to get enough protein. I think that was one of my main problems. Really? Yeah. How much protein do you need? Today, I eat about... Wait, wait, wait, wait. Did you say you lost weight? I lost a lot of weight when I was vegan, yeah. You don't lose weight because of lack of protein. You lose weight because of lack of calories. I was eating 3,000 calories a day. Were you tracking that on chronometer? I wasn't tracking it, but it was... I tried my hardest to get about 3,000. I mean, if you're not tracking on chronometer, then it's deceiving because plant foods are so filled with water and fiber that it might feel like 3,000 calories. But unless you're tracking with a food scale, there's no way to really know. I mean, unless you're eyeballing stuff. I mean, you can like... I mean, when we think about... I mean, there's not that many calories and like stuff like celery and stuff like that. So I don't think I would even... There's zero calories. There's zero calories. I don't think... Yeah. So I wouldn't even count stuff like that, you know? But I think I did a pretty good job of keeping track. I mean, nowadays, I only need like 2,000 calories and that's enough for me. So that's one thing. Another thing I really like, I don't have to eat all the time. I got back when I was vegan. I was eating like freaking like eight meals a day and still being hungry. Well, if you eat celery smoothies and I don't blame you, mate. But I don't know, man. Like, look, I'm fine. I've got to be careful. I don't put weight on. You know what I mean? Because I track my stuff. I've been tracking my stuff for a long time. Whenever I am weightlifting and that I'm tracking my stuff. I know exactly. I'm getting 140 grams of protein, 40 grams of fat and 270 grams of carbs. I know that. I know that. But like, you can't tell me that. I'm looking at my nutrient spectrum. If I had problems, I'd be looking at my nutrient spectrum. I'd be making sure I'm supplementing B12. I'd be like, what foods are causing problems? Like, I'd be like, I don't want to support the animal Holocaust. I don't want to support this mass torture and slaughter of innocent beings. And I'd do anything not to support that. But I know that I don't have to do much. Like it is. I have a question for you. Yeah. This is kind of a fucked up question. But like, if you really wanted to end suffering, couldn't you just kill yourself and then that would result in less animal suffering? Yeah. I mean, this is the thing about ethics. You don't just weigh up. I think a lot of people get confused about this as well when they're debating with vegans. They think that veganism, vegans like a rational vegan, is just trying to not cause any suffering. And suffering is the only measurement of ethics. You know what I mean? Like if it causes suffering, avoid it. When really, you have to weigh up suffering and well-being. Okay. So like when you talk about, no, the answer is no. I wouldn't kill myself, obviously. And I don't think you should either. And I don't think we should go out shooting people either, just because they're a pest animal, worse than any other pest animal that has ever existed on earth. We kill more animals, create more environmental catastrophes and destruction, and are responsible for more species being wiped off the earth than any other animal on earth. And we've got the audacity to call animals pests. But I still, even knowing this fact, would not support culling humans, because it would be probably one of the most amazing things to happen to the earth. I think that you have to factor in the well-being of the human beings. There are instances where I think it would be more ethical to kill a human being, like if they were going to blow up a stadium full of people. I mean, of course. But you have to factor in the well-being of the people. And so there are certain things in civilization that maximize utility, which is basically well-being. They maximize well-being. Like when you talk about animal agriculture, you're talking about trillions of sentient beings who each have their own subjective experience. Having horrific suffering held upon them, caged and attacked and stabbed to death, removing their sentience, which is their capacity for well-being, just so you can have a five-minute sandwich. You know what I mean? Like this is why it's such an injustice. And when you talk about crops, like that we feed, of course they cause some amount of death and suffering. It's just nowhere near categorized the same. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I am. Well, I kind of zoned out for a bit there. But there's 1,100 people here listening. So I'm sure they'll appreciate that, everyone. But listen, bro, we should wrap this up because I feel like maybe you're not into it. Maybe you told me that you got sick. I mean, obviously we've got science that backs up well-planned vegan diets with plenty of science and plant-based diets. Too much. Now it's just pouring in. There's a few anecdotes of people that fell off and said they got sick and stuff like this. I don't know what they did. Don't really know what you did, to be honest, bro. But can we just wrap up what your positions were? I want to say one more thing is that a lot of vegans that I know don't take supplements. I've been talking to some vegans online about what supplements they take. And I've been just kind of interested in that whole area. Part of me is like, this shit's dangerous because you can definitely supplement incorrectly and you can get your mineral balances all out of whack and stuff. So I don't know, it just seems like such a burden to put on people, especially the way I suffered. I just don't know how many people can do this and be healthy. I don't think it's like most people. Well, I just read you the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. Appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan diets are helpful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. The diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle. Infancy, pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, et cetera, et cetera. So basically, before I just let me finish this thought, why on earth would one of the largest nutrition authorities on earth put out a position statement like that if it was going to harm all these people? You know, you need to bring that. You actually have to have data to support something like this. A lot of data and something like the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, you know, predominantly not vegan associations, 100,000 professionals, like predominantly non-vegan, like come on, there's probably about, I don't know, not many. Maybe the science is making more people vegan in that field. But like for them to bring that out, they would want to have a bunch of science supporting it. I mean, it's not just, they're not flakes. It's not a flaky organization. So like, I don't know, if that's not enough for you, like, I don't know if you're right. I don't know if you're right. Do you not think that scientists could be wrong? I mean, my computer could also be an alien. I mean, you'd need evidence to back up a claim like that. So it's called the burden of proof. You know, sure, scientists could be wrong. Sure, all these peer-reviewed studies could be wrong. Sure, you know, these trials they do to test the medicines could be wrong. And you know, all science could be, the earth could be flat. Yeah, there's all these different could-be's, but you just have to show me evidence. Your anecdote for me is not enough because I'm in the vegan movement. So I read something earlier that said that most vegans only, I think it was like an average about a year to four years before they quit. Where did you hear that from? Is that a fauna-lidic study? It was something I read on Google earlier. If you don't have a source, I would need to know what the study was. You know, most vegans are like, to be honest, most vegans, like yourself here, they try a plant-based diet for like two weeks, tell everyone that they did it amazingly correctly. They never have any evidence to support what they actually did, because if they did, we could get it analysed by a plant-based doctor and they could say, well, this is what he did wrong and this is what's going on with his stomach, but they never do. They have a blood test after the fact, so we don't know whether they had pre-existing conditions and then they call himself a vegan who fell off and they were probably eating dairy and eggs like you were. So this is where like, when you're a vegan, you're vegan, it's a philosophy, it's an ethical position against the exploitation and cruelty to animals as far as it's possible and practicable, considering civilisation the way it is. People promote it as some type of diet and this is why, or trend of eating or something like this, which is it's not. Well, I just think that a lot of people are in denial about their health too. How is your health now? I think it's pretty good, a lot better than I was two years ago. Okay. Would you say that you're healthy? Yeah, I would say I'm healthy. And what are you basing that on? Do you have evidence to back up the fact? Do you have any way of proving that you're healthy right now? I could go for a run. I'm not like the fastest person, but I'm probably more in shape than most people. So basically what I'm trying to explain, what I was trying to share with people and yourself is that you can't self-diagnose based on what people look like, how you feel in a certain moment. There are so many different things that could be going on, right? Now you can feel healthy right now and your arteries could be clogging up, all right, from cholesterol and saturated fat. You don't know that. You're just like, I feel okay, I'm good, I'm healthy. There's some people that smoke cigarettes and, yeah, I'm good, I'm good. I had two bottles of wine last night feeling great. Like you can't just go off anecdotes and how you feel. Basically doctors, what they do is they analyze your blood work, they do a bunch of tests and check things out, you know what I mean? And see what's actually going on. They look at your diet and go, okay, what is he eating? Is he eating enough calories for the amount of energy that he's outputting? Heaps of different things. I mean, I feel like self-diagnosing is never the right way because there's so many ex-vegans that did that, self-diagnose. Oh, is this or is that? I'm going to go stab animals to death and eat their bodies now because of, you know. So you're saying like my depression wasn't real? No, I'm not gaslighting you. I'm just saying self-diagnosing is not a sensible solution. So you don't think people should self-diagnose their own depression? You shouldn't self-diagnose the cause of your own depression, that's for sure. Well, I know it was definitely because I wasn't eating meat because it came, my depression went away when I started eating meat. So you're saying that not eating meat causes depression? At least to me, I'm not saying for everyone. I'm not saying for everyone, I'm saying for me. Well, and where do you have the evidence for that? Based on how you felt? Yeah. So that's your only evidence? Well, I know how I feel. That's like, you got to trust the patient's word. If they're saying they're feeling bad, they're feeling bad. Well, that could have been that you weren't eating enough. Could have been that you weren't eating eight meals a day, dude. No, no, no, not enough for you. Nothing like face with food. Enough calories. Yeah, 3,000 calories, dude. That's like a lot for me, dude. You didn't track your calories, though. Dude, I track my calories right now. I don't need an app to track them. I can just keep counting my head. To ask anyone who does dieting, everyone always overestimates or grossly underestimates how much you're eating, especially when you're eating a lot of fiber. So look, I'm not saying that your depression wasn't real. We just don't know why you got it. And you're just saying I was depressed because I wasn't eating the flesh of animals. And you have no evidence for that claim. But you're stating it as if it's a true, scientifically proven fact. Well, I think that, like we were saying earlier, like anecdotes matter. And if I say I did a plant-based diet and I don't feel good and I read someone else online, they said they did a plant-based diet and they didn't feel good. And I see like, oh, wait, there's like 10,000 people in the subreddit and all of them are saying they did a plant-based diet and they didn't feel good. Okay. But okay, how many people are in hospital right now? How many of those are vegans? You know, I'm telling you right now, there's more people are dying that aren't from dietary-related illness that aren't vegan than getting sick from being vegan. You know, like, I could pull up just as many anecdotes of meat eaters killing their babies from being negligent and being sick to death and having Crohn's, my father had Crohn's disease, chronic Crohn's disease, and they started cutting bits out of him. He wasn't a vegan. He was eating meat, salami cheese. He was basically a carnivore dieter. The only thing he ate that wasn't meat was bread. You know what I'm saying? Like, bro, like we can all pull up anecdotes of people eating meat or eating a plant-based diet or however they're doing and, you know, and say, look, look, eating meats cause it like, okay, we can all bring up anecdotes of even the opposite end is true. Like you can bring up healthy looking meat eaters who are strong and good athletes because, you know, and you can bring up good, strong, healthy, vegan athletes too. But these are anecdotes. They have to look at data. You know what I mean? So the number one killer of humans is heart disease. You know that, right? 17 million people a year or something, 17.9 million or 1 million people a year. It's the number one killer of human beings, you know, in saturated fat and cholesterol. Predominantly, well, cholesterol is, cholesterol is only found in animal foods. Well, we can talk about that though. So that's called the lipid protein hypothesis. And that was actually, I forget who came up with that, but that was, I think first, they said that 1950 something. And I think it's been debunked since then. No, no way it's been debunked too. This is very, this is what you're talking about here is years and years of data. They're a massive, massive data analysis. It's got saturated fat in it. I try to limit my coconut, but like, there's no cholesterol in coconut, but the cholesterol is only present in animal foods. Are you trying to tell me that cholesterol and like, I'm not a specialist on heart disease, but is your, are you claiming that cholesterol and saturated fat doesn't increase blood cholesterol and contribute to arteries? What type of, what type of cholesterol? Are you talking about LDL or HDL or triglycerides? Dietary cholesterol, the one, the cholesterol that comes from, you know, I think it's LDL that, that you get from eating animals. The only other cholesterol is the one that you produce. Do you know what LDL stands for? No, no, no, I don't. What does it stand for? Lipo. Low density, lipid protein. Okay. And what are you trying to say? I'm saying the, the cholesterol that you eat from animals that you put in your mouth, dietary cholesterol, raises your blood cholesterol. Yeah, it raises your LDL, but if you look at athletes, they also have high LDL. So I don't think LDL is the marker for someone that's unhealthy. I think triglycerides is something you want to pay more attention to. Okay. We're not going to have a heart disease debate. Okay. Because we're both not experts on this topic, even though I've seen large meta-analysis on, on this study and on this topic. And it's almost universally agreed that dietary cholesterol and saturated fat particularly raises blood cholesterol and contributes to heart disease, heart attacks. But, you know, unless you've got a question, unless you're an expert on some of this research, like maybe we shouldn't go into that. All right. Well, I have a question. It's not really so much about the data and this, the more complicated stuff. Let's not get into that because you know, that's, that's just, we're not qualified to talk about that. But just as like, this is just kind of like an interesting thing. Someone pointed out to me is that, all right. So if all these people that are obese, when did they show up? Like there weren't obese people 100 years ago. There weren't, there weren't type, type two diabetes didn't exist 100 years ago. So like, what was it that all of a sudden all of these like really unhealthy people showed up? I know. Easy access to junk food probably. So I was listening to this one guy, Paul Saladino, and his theory is that it's poly and saturated fatty acids, seed oils. And I, I believe his theory, I think it's, I think it's the seed oils. And I don't, I don't think it's the saturated fat. Yeah. That are making people fat. I don't think it's the saturated fat. I think it's the seed oils, which causes, it causes your metabolism, it causes your metabolism to not function properly. And then that's why people gain weight. Well, no, you gain weight from eating oil because it's full of calories. And when you're in a calorie surplus, you gain fat. But it's not that simple. It's like, how's your metabolism functioning? If your metabolism is not functioning properly, you could be eating X amount of calories and you're going to be gaining weight because you're not properly like. Well, I don't want to have a debate with you on, on weight gain because we come into debate ethics, right? You come on here to debate ethics and we're debating weight gain from seed oil, right? But you can gain weight from eating bacon and bacon fat. And I don't know what kind of, I did a carnivore diet and I could not gain weight. Like you're not, you're not going to gain weight eating meat, dude. Like, well, it depends if you eat more calories than your body burns. Of course you are. It's called the law of thermodynamics. If you eat more calories than you burn, you will put on fat. But it's, it's not that simple though. It's like, what are the, what kind of calories, you know, like, are you fit? How are you? There's like so much more to it. It's not as simple as calories. We're not talking ethics right now. I want to debate ethics, the ethical principle of veganism. We're not going to get into a debate on how you're going to gain weight, where you go get, you can't. Well, I think it matters. I think the health thing is intertwined with the ethics thing. Because like I said, I was unhealthy and a lot of my vegan friends are unhealthy. And I don't think I think the health, I think the health thing trumps the ethics thing, trumps the ethics thing. Yeah. And I have friends that are still vegan and healthy. I have vegans friends that are unhealthy. This is what you're a doctor now. How do you know they're unhealthy? They're skinny fat. They they're face train. All right. Well, all my, all my vegan friends are skinny. Are you skinny fat dude? No. Do you train? Do you train occasionally? Yeah, I train a little bit. You're going to put on more muscle mass if you train. Anyone would. I mean, I don't know if you're your vegan friends train, but how are you diagnosing their health from just looking at them? That's what I want to know. This is what I don't get. You're tired all the time. They're talking about depression and anxiety that didn't exist, you know, like a year ago when they weren't vegan. They, their eyes look weird. Like that's another thing I've noticed with long term vegans is like, like they're like, I don't know, just, I can't describe it. They have like vegan face. You're talking about vegan deterioration and all that. Yeah, they know his face, my friend's face. Come on, bro. Come on, bro. Do my eyes look weird? You've never seen an unhealthy looking vegan. They like their skin. I've seen unhealthy looking meat eaters, dude. Go into the cancer ward. Tell me how many of them are vegan. It doesn't prove your point. This is what I'm saying. Yeah, I'm saying like that. Go into the cancer ward. Tell me how many of them are vegan. Most vegans aren't healthy. What about that? You're using anecdotes and your eyes to diagnose people. Like you've got like sometimes telekinesis talk to power. I'd be a lot more inclined to like believe in the vegan health thing if I knew more healthy vegans. Like I only see them on Instagram. You've got to go onto the internet where the entire movement is like filled with whole food plant-based health advocates who are looking amazing, who are stronger and fitter and look a lot more vibrant than you do. And I'm not even trying to offend you. I mean, they look vibrant and fitter and stronger than I do too. So, but like you can't gauge what someone's health is by looking at them, dude. Newsflash, you just can't. You can't do that. You might be able to see, but well, if you don't get sun, you kind of go pale. That doesn't mean you're necessarily unhealthy if you're taking a vitamin D supplement. You have to blood test people. You have to, you know, you just can't diagnose people by looking at them. I mean, that's insane. Do you realize that? Yeah, but if you hang out with someone, you know, when they're acting weird, like if my friend is like this one day, and later he's acting different, that's like- Yeah, dude. That could be anything, man. Like this is like what you're delving into woo-woo conspiracy stuff, man. And I don't know, man. It's not grounded in reality. It's just grounded in your subjective opinion, which is just not any evidence against what I'm talking about here is the egregious abuses and cruelties that happens to animals on a mass scale. And you're saying, oh, my friend looks a little bit weird. That's why we should stab billions of animals to death. You know, like this is just insane, like to me. And I'm, I don't know. I'm just tired of seeing my friends suffer and being in denial of it. And I think a lot of vegans are in denial of their suffering, and they're not aware of it. You care more about that than you do about causing the mass suffering of trillions of animals. So you can eat- Yeah, I care more about my friend. I care more about my friend's health than I do about like some like slaughterhouse. Like, I want my friends to be healthy. The animals in this slaughterhouse, I mean, the animals in this slaughterhouse. I was just wondering, who do you think's got it worse? The animals or who do you think's got it worse? You or the animals or your friend or the animals? Animals are like, they pretty much suffer anyways, if you think about it. Like, have you ever seen a deer get attacked by a bear? What's deer got to do with factory farming? I know, but it's relevant. What's a deer got to do with pigs, cows, chickens and fish, the predominant animals who are being butchered and murdered? Historically, most, most of those animals have been being eaten by wolves and shit. So like- What do you mean they don't exist in nature, dude? They're being bred into factory farms so people can eat them. They're like, uh, what is that called, uh, domesticated? But the original, like the original fowl, like the original cow, like I figure out what they called them, but they were being like, why is it irrelevant? It's irrelevant because I want to know why you're okay causing this mass amount of suffering to these animals for their body parts. This is human cause suffering. So obviously you're okay with a bear killing a deer, right? I think it's horrible. I'm not okay with a bear killing anyone. Wait, so how are those bears supposed to survive? Well, it's a survival situation, exactly. It's not what you're in. I mean, for what you're in is like, you didn't plan your diet properly or something and you're saying that meat, not eating meat caused you depression without any evidence and you're diagnosing people with your eyes and you're saying this is why what happens to animals is justified. Um, like a bear is in a serious survival situation. They have to do what they have to do. I don't think it's good that an animal is ripped to shreds. I wouldn't think it's good if you were ripped to shreds. If anything, I'd probably try to protect you and I possibly try to protect an animal in that situation. I mean, I mean, I think like if a dog attacks another dog, a smaller dog, I don't think that that's just nature. I think that's horrible violence. I think that nature is inherently horrible in some ways and it's also very good in some ways. But I mean, yeah, if a dog attacks a cat, I'll try to protect the cat and shit. I don't like that type of stuff. So if nature is inherently violent, then why should we try to like disconnect ourselves from nature? It's called ethics and morals and civilization and we don't want to be savage psychopaths who kill each other. I have another question. I'm going to say when you move on to next questions, you just accept and concede what I say. Can you say what you say one more time? I'm thinking in my own brain, dude, sorry. No, that's all right. Now, every time I say something and you move on to something else, I'm just going to say that you've accepted and conceded on what I've said because you're not responding to it and you're just going, oh, okay, I'm going to go on to something else. When you have a discussion, I'm sorry, dude. I'm just not good at conversations. I'm not my strong suit. Okay, I'm more of a musician type, dude. I'm more of the guy that you come on here to debate animal ethics and I don't know. I'm not really trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just kind of more curious what you think. I'm actually just genuinely curious. I'm not really on here to fucking try to, I don't think I'm changing anyone's mind. If anything, you're probably reinforcing people to be vegan. But also, it's just like, I don't know, I'm just curious. What's going on in your world? What's going on in your head? I come on to debate why you think it's okay to stick knives in innocent animals' throats so you can eat their body, which I think is necrovore stuff. It's like eating dead bodies. I think it's disgusting. I think it's sickening. These animals are like children in their minds. They can't be defended. They can't defend themselves. They are terrified in slaughterhouse. I don't even know if you've even seen slaughterhouse footage, dude, and watch what happens in these beings' eyes when they're about to die. It's horrible. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I used to be a violent, bloody gang member and I just think what happens to pigs and chickens and cows is one of the sickest things humans do because you know what? Human beings know that the chickens and the cows and the pigs ain't going to do shit back to them so they just keep doing it. It's bullying and it's cruel dominance. It's one of the most unethical, unjustifiable things we as a race do. They're never going to form coalitions and fight back and causing them egregious suffering. The justifications I hear are completely ludicrous and nonsense. No one has ever, no one has yet come up with a strong enough argument why we should keep causing this mass holocaust. No one here to hear it. So say, I hate to throw hypotheticals, but hypothetically I did a perfect vegan diet. Hypothetically I had the blood markers and just for some reason I just can't do it. Then it would be okay for me to eat meat, in your opinion. Hypothetically, if you had to eat animals in a hypothetical situation, I wouldn't be here debating ethics with you, dude. What do you mean? Because in a survival situation, if you had to eat animals, I wouldn't be there debating ethics with you. I'm not saying in a survival situation. I'm just saying like say someone like Mikaela Peterson. That's the only situation that you would need to do it, is if you needed to do it to survive. Otherwise it's just cruel and unjustifiable. What about for suffering? Say I could do a vegan diet, but it makes me not function properly, but I can kind of function. Would me be eating meat okay or would I just have to like go through life suffering? That's not a hypothetical. You actually said that actually happened to you and I had trouble believing it. All right, but say you do believe it. Say I had evidence and stuff. If you had evidence, we'd be running over the evidence now, but you don't. I know, but I'm just saying hypothetically I did and the evidence was like in my favor, then it would be okay. Well, in an alternative universe, if we're all going to be in an alternative universe, if we're all suffering to some horrible degree, I'd probably eat you to end that suffering. I don't know. It depends, man. It depends. Like in an alternative universe, I don't know. Like an alternative universe, if we needed to eat animals to stop horrendous suffering, you'd have to, I don't know. I really don't know what that universe would look like. But in this universe, where we exist with science to back up well-planned plant-based diets and knowing the horrific cruelty that happens to animals on mass. So billions of humans can have burgers and shit that we have vegan versions of. Like in this reality, I just think it's completely insane and unjustified and you should have evidence if you are saying that, you know, not eating meat caused you chronic depression and it was no other factors. Otherwise, you should be held accountable for paying for animals to be stabbed to death. That's the reality I want to live in where people are actually held accountable for paying for egregious cruelties like this, unjustifiable egregious cruelties like they are when they buy child abuse videos, you know what I mean? Because it's supply and demand. The demand is causing horrific things to happen to a being like a child or an animal. I think they should be held to a similar standard in society, but they're not. No one gives a shit about animals. Hey, man. Well, I guess we'll wrap up here, dude. But I appreciate you, man. Like I know you might not like me. You might not like my worldview, but it's not that, man. It's not that. It's just, look, I think that you're a nice enough guy. I just think that your positions are not very well thought out. I will say that. I'm not denying that you went through a hard stage. I just don't think you tried hard enough to, if you thought of the victims, you might have analyzed things a little bit deeper and maybe thought things through a bit more. I don't know. But yeah, I don't think that you don't seem like a bad guy. But if you know something bad has happened to the animals and you don't do something about it, then you should analyze the morality of that. But see, the problem I have is I don't think I could ever try a vegan diet again just because of how terrible I felt. Just that idea of thinking about it, it just sends like, it just gives me this feeling in my chest like, I don't want to go back to that state. I mean, it just depends on how well planned your diet is and who you're getting advice from. I don't know who you got your advice for your diet from. I don't know what you're eating and where you're eating it. And if you had some type of preexisting condition from eating animals or something else, some other environmental factor, dietary factor, medication that caused some problem in your stomach. And when you started eating fiber, things happen. I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I wasn't around to diagnose you. I wasn't around to analyze your diet. I'm not even a nutritionist, but I have a basic understanding of nutrition, which is what gets me making sure I'm feeling good and stuff. But I have people that could help you if you needed to some advice. But again, on the other hand, I don't think that this is like... You don't have a sense of urgency enough to care about the animals. You know what I mean? Yeah, because I care more about myself and my health than I do about animals. And I don't think that's unreasonable. What if it was a human holocaust? In a human holocaust, you're eating human holocaust victims. I say they're from another planet. They look exactly like us. They are sentient like us and highly intellectual and intelligent like us. But there's a holocaust of these alien beings going on so you can have burgers and bits of their body and stuff like this. But you realize, well, this is highly immoral. I'm going to stop eating them. And you did the exact diet that you did there. The exact diet. I don't know what it was. Say you did everything you did. You were eating eggs and dairy for God's sakes. There was a bit of time where you said you were plant-based. And then you felt a bit bad. But you realized that this holocaust of these alien human-like beings was so immoral and caused so much suffering and violence. But would you go back to doing it? Or would you try to find an alternative? I'm talking about beings like us. Desperate beings who are pleading with you. Like similar to human beings in every way. This is a crazy hypothetical, man. Would you try harder? Because it seems like you've been honest with them when you're thinking about it as well. Dude, I don't know, man. It would be weird because I would have grown up eating aliens in that hypothetical. So I probably would have been... You didn't know until you saw the slaughter footage. You saw the horrible facilities. You just realized, oh my gosh. Well then in that case, I guess. But that's different because I think because I've grown up eating meat and it just doesn't seem so weird as eating an alien seems really weird because I've never experienced that before. Just think of a human with different DNA. That's all. That's all I'm doing. What I'm trying to say is you would try to avoid it for human beings, even if they're human beings with different DNA. But you view animals so far less below us that you find with cutting their heads off and chopping up their bodies because there was some type of dietary problem here that we're not even sure what it was, but that you self-diagnosed. But what is it about these animals? What is it about them that makes them so far below us that it's okay to stab them to death and cut up their body? Well, I think you would agree that there's a spectrum of importance, right? You value a human life over a cow, over an insect. Well, what human? Oh, yeah, I guess it would have to be a specific human. But all right, say an insect. How much do you value an insect's life? At what point do we, like, I don't know what your point of view is. If there's a mosquito on you, do you slap it? Do you kill it? Generally, I would defend myself from blood-sucking insects, yeah, for sure. I think that falls under a different category. What makes that bug better than a cow? Or worse than a cow? Sentience. So sentience is what matters to you? Of course. That's the only thing that matters in the moral universe. If you can't perceive suffering and well-being, why would you matter? Sentience is consciousness, the awareness that you have of reality. All right, well, bees aren't sentient, according to Google. So bees are fine. No, no, no. We can kill bees now? No, bees are sentient. They are. I think they're one of the, I think they're some of the, yeah, they are. They do feel pain and stuff like that, bees. This article says they're not. Do you can't use articles, dude? You have to actually use studies. You know the articles aren't. All right, I'll pull up a study. I'll get a study. You know, I could write an article right now saying that jelly beans fell out the sky and gave me a million dollars. Like, that's not recent. I'll get you the good stuff. I'll get you the good stuff, man. So basically, some insects are proven to be sentient, and some insects have proven not to be able to even feel pain. Like, some insects, the scientists cut their body in half and the insect would still feed and drink normally. Other insects like, you know, bees and stuff like this, I think they're, you know, they are, you know, probably lower level beings having some type of experience. But when you go up to like, you know, higher animals, there's no question these beings are sentient. Like a cow, for instance. Start there. Now a cow, there are some human beings who don't even have the mental capacity of a cow. There are some human beings who are born with a serious handicap, and we protect them as we should. But some cows are more capable than a human being, like, of this nature. Yeah. But you still think it's okay to stab to death the cow? And I assume you're against stabbing to death the mentally handicapped human being. So you'd have a double standard there. But you'd probably just say it's because one is human. I don't know. Also, it's illegal. No, it's because the law is the only thing stopping you from stabbing a human. No, no, I was joking. But you know, the Holocaust in Germany was also legal. And so was slavery in America was legal. There's certain things that are horrible laws don't determine morality. I agree with you there. And not always. They sometimes they do. When it comes to like, you know, it depends on how far ahead society is. So like, obviously, there's a law against the murder and it's immoral to murder, but just depends. It doesn't always. So it doesn't logically follow that laws determine morality. No. But you have a double standard there when it comes to lower capacity human beings, which we would protect like toddlers and say people born with a serious mental handicap, bless them. We protect them. I would protect them. But cows. Fuck. Like stuff them. Sorry if I swear in guys stuff them. Well, I think that's different because like historically humans have been eating meat. And like historically humans haven't been cannibalizing each other. I think there are a few like crazy examples. We've always killed each other, bro. Cannibalized specifically. And yeah, but we've always murdered each other just because something's happened traditionally. You can't it doesn't logically follow that that thing is then ethical. Well, that's kind of the argument for the health thing though, is that we evolved to eat meat. And that's why I think that's why I need to meet is because I have the genetics of a being that's been living on meat for the past 100,000 years. And so I think I think I think it is relevant because like you just eat what your parents ate and you just keep doing it. And then we're here. Yeah, but what nutrient can't you get on a plant-based diet that you can get from meat? Your stomach just dissolves it into different nutrients and it goes into your body. But it's not that simple. Like you got to like supplement correctly. It's like it's not as easy as what do you mean? It's not as easy as like taking a multivitamin or whatever. You don't supplement B12? No. You should. The animals that you eat are supplemented with B12. I eat liver and liver has like an extremely high amount of B12. I don't believe in taking supplements. Well, the liver that you're eating has supplements in it. The liver that you're eating has B12 supplements in it because they either inject the animals with B12 or put it in their feed. Even grass pasture-raised animals have Colbat B12. They're supplemented with it because there's a Colbat deficiency in soil. So you're eating a supplement anyway just through the animals. What if I killed a deer and then I ate that liver? That would be a real source of B12. That's not like... Well, it doesn't matter. I'm saying that supplements don't mean supplementing isn't inherently wrong or bad. Modern medicine is good. You can't have B12. You can't have B12. Do you not think supplementing is dangerous? It's water soluble. You urinate it out if you have too much B12. Well, not B12 specifically, but I'm saying supplementing. Say what? Say supplementing. I don't know. Something like zinc. I've heard that can be dangerous because you're not getting enough copper and it causes mineral imbalances. Maybe. But there's zinc rich foods you can have as a plant as a vegan. I know that. You don't need to supplement zinc. You can have it from plant-based foods as zinc and food. B12 is the only nutrient of concern, really, because you actually have to have a supplement if you're not a vegan. Even non-vegans should be supplementing B12, but they already are. So are we with all of our packaged foods. B12 is added everywhere. Because it's a serious nutrient of concern. And B12 ain't floating around in the water anymore and stuff like that because water is sanitized. So I don't think you should stab an animal to death to get the B12 out of their blood, just like I don't think we should stab you to death to get the nutrients out of your blood. I think we should get it from plants, plant foods. But I guess we'll do another 10 minutes anyway, but I wanted to get your position. Are you okay with stabbing the human and not the cow? I mean, are you okay with stabbing the cow and not the human? Stabbing the cow and not the human. I'm okay with stabbing the cow and not the human. Okay, why? I want to know what's different about them. I think I already answered this. It's because we've been eating. What kind of animal is a cow? It's like a fear of what they call them. I want to know ethically why you wouldn't, ethically, why you would stab the cow but wouldn't stab the lesser capable human. Did I say that the right way around? Did I say the wrong way around? Why would you stab the cow and wouldn't stab the lesser capable human? Because I've been eating cow and it's something that's like ingrained in me as like normal. I've been eating cow before I even knew what it was. But eating a human was like, that would be something new to me, you know? But I'm asking you what is ethical, not what you've always done. Why is one ethically fine and one not? Well, I don't want to say it's necessarily ethically fine, but I would say it's ethically better to kill a cow and a human. Why? No, no, I told you that. Well, you were talking about sentience earlier and you said that you'd value say like your friend's life, your over like a cow's life. So like, I mean, there's an order. And I don't kill them. I don't kill either of them, by the way. But I'm asking you, like a less, a very specifically said, I'm hoping you're listening to when I speak and not fading off, but because I said a less capable human than a cow and they do exist. I'm saying you wouldn't stab that human being and you'd still stab the more capable cow. I want to know why. Well, I guess I don't really have an answer as far as ethically, but just because I'm used to eating the cow just doesn't seem weird. I mean, that's yeah, that's not an ethical argument. And that's, you know, I'm not really here for the ethical thing. I'm here for the health thing, but I'm down to debate the ethic thing. I'm kind of kind of crop deaths is an ethical argument. Basically, you're saying that was what the debate was hinging on crop deaths. You know what I mean? Well, yeah, I mean, I also like to bring that up because a lot of vegans aren't aware of that. And when you bring it up, they act like it's like, oh, it's like what, one mice or something. It's like, no, there's like thousands of rodents that are killed every year. And there's trillions of animals, including the trillions on top of that killed for the crops to feed them in non-vegan diets. It's just gargantually more. Yeah. And if vegans don't know about crop deaths, they probably just turn vegan or something. But do you think they're going to watch that, read that and go, oh, I'm going to start stabbing animals. Thanks for telling me that, man. I'm going to go start buying gas chambered pigs out of horrible factory farms. Well, I just, I don't know. I just think it's weird that like, I don't necessarily think it's going to change their mind. I just think people should be aware that the vegan diet isn't like this like perfect holiday where like no animal ever gets hurt. I just... No one thinks that. I mean, are you doing it to... Are you doing that because you believe that you're trying to call out their hypocrisy? So you feel better? Are you doing that because you honestly want to let them know that, hey, guess what? Crop deaths are a big problem. Maybe we should start working together to try to mitigate a lot of the prop deaths through vertical farming or through veganic farming or through different methods of controlling wildlife and insects that don't involve killing them because I'm deeply concerned. Or are you just more concerned with calling out people's hypocrisy to make yourself feel better? Let's say a little bit of both. You don't care about the animals though, definitely. 100% I can guarantee that. You think they're worth less than us. You even stab them to eat them. So it's definitely not that you care about the animals. It's that you care about making yourself feel better and calling the vegan a hypocrite. It's called an appeal to hypocrisy. I do care about the animals just not like a lot. Like I do think that there's a difference between being tortured to death and then just being killed, you know? I know you... Well, they are tortured to death. Well, you can... There's other ways about doing it. Jeffrey Dahmer was more humane to his victims than they are to cows and slaughterhouses. Do you know how Jeffrey Dahmer killed his victims? He took them home after a date, seduced them, put a sleeping tablet sedative in their drink and they didn't wake up. Then he stuck drills into them and cut them up and dismembered them and put them in his freezer. It was one of the most humane methods of slaughter. If you're talking about industry standard in animal agriculture and compared to what Jeffrey Dahmer was doing, that's not what happens to animals in animal agriculture. They get walked down a kill line. They could smell the blood of the animals before them. They get bolt gunned in the head. They're about 5 or 10% of the bolt to the head fail in the UK. So then they get strung up fully conscious. But chickens get dragged through an electrical bath. Pigs go get thrown into a dungeon filled with gas where they scream and beg for mercy. It's horrible. Fish get dragged out the ocean where they suffocate and die. What do you think is happening to these animals? They're being tortured and murdered. Yeah, but say when I'm fishing my own fish, right? When I catch that fish, I catch them and then I kill them as soon as I can. I don't just let them suffocate. I think there's a difference between dying slowly. How do you catch them with a hook? Yeah, there's a difference between a slow, painful death and a quick, a very quick death. I don't think grabbing the fish out of the ocean is quick, by the way. You dragged them out of the ocean by their face. You've torn them out from their environment. They're suffocating and then you've snapped their head, whatever you've done. That's a horrible way to die. Yeah, but I'm just saying it's less bad than what the fishermen are doing of just letting them suffocate the whole... You know what? There's been mass murders that are less bad than your average, that are more bad, worse than your average serial killer. That doesn't make your average serial killer good. But it makes them less bad though. There's been a new... All I'm saying is there's a section. Of course. That doesn't mean that just because something is worse. Therefore, the thing before is good. I'm not necessarily saying that. I do care about the animals, not a lot. I know it sounds dumb, but... You care about them less than your taste buds kind of thing and adjusting your diet so that it works for you. Inconvenience, I would say one. Inconvenience, because it's going to be inconvenient to find out what was going on and stuff like that and then taste and convenience probably. You could eat a similar paleo-style diet to the one you're eating and just replacing the meat with tofu, tempeh or something like this. It would give you a decent amount of protein full of calcium. Tofu is incredibly healthy. I think one of the problems for me is that I don't think my body absorbs plant proteins. You can say that, but until you prove it, then how on earth are you going to know? I don't have documented evidence, but I did eat a lot of protein when I was vegan. I did do weight training, and I lost muscle. That's enough evidence for me. Do you know Hench Herbivore? Who? Hench Herbivore. No. Just look up Hench Herbivore and then if you want to keep throwing anecdotes, I'll throw them back at you. All right, but what I'm saying is... Hench Herbivore is a massive bodybuilding vegan. He's 25 times bigger than you, dude. Maybe he can do it, but I'm saying I can't. I put on more muscle last year than I've had on my body in my entire life, because I was training consistently sleeping. I know, but you might be able to, but I'm not able to. I don't know what you did. You're only eating a vegan diet for two months or something. You said you were eating eggs and dairy before that, and I didn't even know what you were eating, dude. I don't know whether you were eating eggs and dairy, which is what you said. You were eating vegetarian, and you had eggs and dairy, which is cheese and eggs and milk and yogurt and these things like that. Then you removed those things. You removed a bunch of calories from your diet, and then you were just eating the plants, and then you started deteriorating, going, oh my God, I'm depressed. I get extremely depressed and low mood when I don't eat enough. That's what happens to me. I start going feeling good. That's just a common thing. You need calories. Your brain needs glucose and carbohydrates and things like this. I don't know if that happened to you because we don't know. I mean, I don't know what you did. You don't have a food diary, which is important when you're changing diets. If you care, you should maybe track for the first few months so you can go and see a nutritionist, plant-based nutritionist, and say, this is what I've been doing. Why do I feel like this? I don't want to stab animals to death. That's what I would have done. You know what I mean? See, I think the whole plant-based nutritionist thing is a scam to sell you bullshit supplements. Who wants to sell supplements? I see all kinds of vegans peddling pea protein, which, by the way, is really dangerous. You said, what are you talking about, bro? Why is it dangerous? What do you mean? Why can't bodybuilders supplement with protein? All bodybuilders do. Do you know that pea protein contains lead, mercury, and arsenic? It depends on where you get it from. I know, but it's just so ridiculous. You have to try to not get lead in your diet when you're trying to go vegan. What are you talking about, dude? Do you know how many non-vegans have pea protein? A lot of people don't have dairy protein, whey protein. I mean, who is that hurting? Yourself, maybe. But you can get lead-free pea protein. Vevo do lead-free pea protein, I think. But anyway, what has that got to do with stabbing animals to death en masse? You know what I mean? I just think the vegan thing is kind of like a scam to sell shit. And you know what, bro? I think my laptop's an alien that's taking over my brain right now, but I can't prove it. But that's just what I think, man. I'm not even trying to be an alien. I see a lot of vegans selling supplements, dude. I'm just saying. It's a profitable industry, man. I can see a lot of non-vegans selling supplements, man. It's a profitable industry. I think being a meat eater is just a big scam to make money. But people have been eating meat for millions of years, and people have only been eating meat. People have been running and killing each other. You literally just appealed to tradition. Do you know what that is? You're saying because something has been happening for millions of years, we should keep doing it because slavery happened since we've been around. It's deeper than that, though. It's happened for millions of years. Pillaging and war and, you know, I don't know. The most horrible types of human torture have happened for thousands, hundreds of thousands of years. You're missing the point. Evolution. Are you saying there's some type of magical compound in meat that made us evolve? No. I'm saying that there hasn't historically ever been a vegan society, so we wouldn't have to evolve. What is the magical compound in meat that helped us evolve? I would say just dense fat. I think dense fat is probably what helped us evolve. You mean more calories? You mean more calories, you mean? Well, I mean, your brain is 60% fat. So what do you know about evolution? Fat's really good for your brain, man. What do you know about evolution? What do you know about evolution? For evolutionary changes to occur, it has to take place over hundreds of thousands of years. Agriculture only started about 10,000 years ago, so I just don't think it's a long enough time for people to adjust to a plant-based way of living. I think we would have had to eat plants for a much longer amount of time for us to have the genetics to properly digest plant foods. What? We've been eating plant foods forever, nearly. What are you talking about? All right. So how come a cow can eat grass, but you can't? Too much cellulose, probably. Because cows have four stomachs. Grass is inedible. It doesn't mean that all plants are inedible to us. There are edible plants. Let me finish. So cows have four stomachs, right? Yeah. So they can eat grass. And their stomachs are designed to consume the grass, right? So they need to eat grass, and we don't. We eat fruits and tubers and leaves that are a little bit more yielding and less cellulose that we can digest. I don't know. We're human beings. We've got a different diet to cows. They're ruminants. We're not. Yeah, ruminants. That was the word. We're closer to like a primate or something like that. Look at our teeth. Flat and blunt, molars, chew side to side. We don't have claws, no biological adaptations. We've got to cook all our food, or we'll get sick. Cook all your meat, so you don't get sick. I think it's cooking food that helped us evolve. Now, I'm not like one of those evolution type of people. I don't know all about all that stuff. I don't know. I know cooking food had a lot to do with it, okay? But just because we've been doing something for millions of years, okay? And if you can't name the magical compound in meat that helped us evolve, like, because meat is just made up of proteins, fats, and minerals, and blood, and things like this, tendons. If you can't name this magical. There's vitamins in meat, too. We'll name the vitamin that we need, that we can't supplement with or get from a plant-based diet. I mean, there's lots of vitamins that are hard to get on a vegan diet. I wouldn't say impossible, but I'd just say it's kind of impractical. Well, name one. Vitamin A. What do you mean? We've convert vitamin A from beta-carotene. We've got heaps of it. Just eat some carotene. The conversion process isn't that efficient. You're much better off to just eat from an animal source. You talked about supplements before. Like, I'm not a nutritionist. I don't know heaps about diet and stuff. I'm obviously an animal rights activist. You know, if you eat too much liver, you can get a vitamin A toxicity from the liver. So why, you know, you can literally never get vitamin A toxicity from eating plant food, vitamin beta-carotene. You know, the only person that ever got vitamin A toxicity ate a polar bear liver? Oh, whatever. The thing must have been like this big, dude. All I'm saying is like, what do you mean? Do I look vitamin A deficient to you? Wear all these vegans with vitamin A deficiency, by the way. Do you have the research to support that? Or are you just making claims again? I know a lot of vegans have trouble with iron deficiency. It's another one. I know a lot of non-vegans who have trouble with iron deficiency. It's a mostly non-vegan thing. They can't absorb the iron. What are you talking about, bro? I'm just saying what I've seen, man. No, what you're doing is you're trying to grab anecdotes where you see fit to support your argument. But I can throw them straight back at you. There's more non-vegans with iron deficiency than vegans, statistically, because there's more non-vegans. I think this is just a vegan problem, iron absorption. Nutrient absorption is just a vegan problem. Particularly. So all of those vitamins stores all across the world only exist because of the small portion of vegans. All of those supplement stores, all the doctors only exist because of vegans, bro. Anti-depressants, you said you were depressed when you stopped eating meat. Anti-depressants, they make billions of dollars from anti-depressants just from vegans. Not from all the people that are eating all this anti-depressant meat that you believe has this anti-depressant property. Most people with depression have eat meat. I don't think it's got anything to do with the fact that you stopped eating meat. When I was eating meat, I was more depressed than I ever was ever. I was an alcoholic. I was on all types of drugs. Yeah, but you're probably also eating processed foods on top of that, right? Well, I ate whatever. I was just on drugs. I was indoors. Well, that's another thing. I had trauma. So you claimed I did a vegan diet. You claimed I did the plant-based diet wrong, right? Or you suspect I did the plant-based diet wrong, right? Well, you haven't provided enough evidence to prove otherwise. All right, well, I'm going to accuse you of not doing a meat diet properly. Well, I know why I was depressed and I didn't blame my diet. That's what you're doing. I know why I was depressed. I was in gangs. I was taking drugs. I had PTSD. You know, I wasn't looking after myself or sleeping or exercising. I know why I was depressed. I'm not depressed anymore. I get depressed when people try to justify the horrific things that happen to animals and I'm looking at slaughter footage all day, all right? But I mean, I feel like I'm in better well-being than I've ever been. I didn't point to my diet and say, I'm depressed because of this. I know why I was, you know, it was other environmental factors, obviously. And I have- Do you have evidence for that? Do you have evidence for that in my family? Sorry? Do you have evidence for that? What do you mean? Like you said, you were depressed. Do you have evidence for that? Yeah, I changed the environmental factors. Yeah, but you do have evidence for that. Stop drinking alcohol. Did you do your dog? I stopped drinking alcohol. Alcohol is literally a depression. That's an anecdote. I stopped using meth. I mean, there's plenty of evidence to support, you know, drug and alcohol exacerbating mental health issues for sure. I mean, that's not just an anecdote. I mean, ask any psychiatrist about that or psychologist. All right. All right. Well, let me pull up this study. It says most vegetarians and vegans have depression. I know the one you're talking about. I know the one you're talking about. You're talking about the one that carnivore guy shared. Well, this one's on psychology today. Yeah. Look, bro. Yeah, I know the one. I remember it's getting smashed by the vegans at one stage, but some carnivore guy shared it. Anyways, we can go through studies at each other, but honestly, dude, I don't think either of us are going to study about the depression, but honestly, I don't think either of us are going to change either of us minds. Yeah. I mean, the reason that we have public discourse, right? Yeah. The reason that we have public discourse is so that the audience can make their mind up. It's not necessarily, I don't expect you to, but it depends on what the people think, really. I mean, I don't really have high hopes for you to stop abusing animals through your lifestyle and start being vegan again, to be honest with you. But I was really curious to know what your justification for it was and why you're an anti-vegan. I think we've discussed most of the points now. Yeah. I mean, unless there's anything you wanted to add, I just... All right. I'll end with this. I know that you're coming from a place of love, and I'm coming from a place of love, although you might not perceive it that way. And I just... I guess I wish you the best. Okay. I'll come from the place of the love for all beings, not just some beings. Okay? So, when I see someone doing something that's horrible to them, that's coming from a place of love too. So, you know, I don't think what you're coming from is from a place of love. I think it's coming from selfishness, personally. And... Do you think it could be possibly a misguided love? Possibly. I just want you to know that I'm generally trying to help people when I'm talking about this ex-vegan thing, because I genuinely think they're sick, and I genuinely think they need to be better. You can say I'm wrong, but I just want you to know that I'm generally coming from a place of love here. Like, I'm not... Yeah. I think bad advice, bad medical advice from someone who's not a professional and is just diagnosing people with their preconceived ideas, conspiracy theories, and their eyesight, basically, going, you don't look well. I don't think that's very loving. I think that's irresponsible. And also, like, trying to convince people to stop just to continue or to start again with their abuse of animals. I don't think it's very loving either. I mean, we're trying to stop these horrible things from happening to animals. I just don't see why we want to encourage people to continue. But you can see... All right. I don't know. I was about to do another hypothetical, but I don't know if I want to go down that rabbit hole. Yeah, these hypotheticals, mate. I'll tell you right now, they've been pretty interesting. All right. You know what, Niko? It was good talking to you, buddy. I hope everyone was entertained there. We have a thousand people watching. That's a thousand. And yeah, appreciate your time. I'm going to start answering a few questions now. So maybe I'll let you out of the stream. But you know what, dude? Thanks for coming on. It took a lot of... It's a big channel. It took a lot of guts for me to come on. I do respect that. You know that I probably could assume I've been doing this for a long time. And you know, it's kind of daunting to come on and do something like this. So good on you, bro. That's all I'll say. Stop abusing animals with your lifestyle, please, and stop stabbing them in the neck. And maybe me and you can go have a vegan burger together sometime. Well, probably won't, but best to you, man. Take care. All right, bud. Take care, buddy. See you later. Okay. Well, I did not expect it to be like that, eh? Sorry, guys. Anyways, hey, everyone. What do you think about that? Did anyone watch that whole thing? Someone comment if you've watched the whole thing. Someone comment? Someone? I'm waiting. Anyways, yeah, interesting guy, Nikko. I just thought it would be... I don't know a different type of debate. I guess Nikko was just probably looking for a conversation. He threw a couple of articles at me about animals being killed, which were just... These articles have been debunked for years. A lot of them, they didn't... You know, one compared protein and wheat to protein and meat, which is kind of weird. But yeah, arguments we've all heard before. So I thought there would be something new. There was maybe something new in there, but like when we start talking about heart disease and things like that, like I'm not an expert on heart disease, so I don't like to talk about things. I'm not very clued up on. I'm not a nutritionist either, but we can only go by what research we have. And I just... I've got my little vegan senses on for the x-vegan thing. I honestly don't believe that the diet was well planned. Or I do think that something went wrong there. I don't think that eating meat cures depression. I just don't think that. I mean, I don't necessarily think that being vegan cures depression. I think there are last old factors that contribute to it. And but yeah, yeah, um, but anyways, he was very respectful when, you know, in the end. So anyone have any questions? We can do a little Q&A. Anyway, I might upload this. I'm gonna upload it and have another watch through and see what I think. But yeah, see if there's any good points made in there, whether it's worth staying up. Yeah, I mean, there's, look, there were many claims made without evidence. There were just what ifs and isn't it possible to? And I know someone who's been doing it and I know someone who was and I've seen this and there was just mostly just opinions and anecdotes. Yeah, okay. How do I stay calm? I don't know if I really did then. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not actually sure depends. It depends. I mean, I prefer to stay respectful in the debate. Of course, I prefer to be respectful. Sometimes I get a little bit like, come on, this is ridiculous. Because I don't know what sometimes it's hard to know whether someone's serious or not. And sometimes I get a little bit frustrated, but that's cool. It's all about being animated. I think, you know, just improving your arguments instead of getting angry is probably a good idea. But look, I'm not perfect either. So, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah. Well, because basically I asked him for evidence about, you know, him eating meat curing his depression and whether or not it was the fact he stopped eating meat that caused his depression and whether or not it wasn't just that he lowered his calories down and, you know, he didn't have a food diary and things like this. This is why I was asking about that. But yeah, you're the one with a lot of, I don't get it why people talk. Yeah, I mean, look, I think it was because, I think it was because he thought that the crop death thing was a strong argument when it's not, because vast majority of farmland is being used for animal agriculture, isn't it? And then the cropland like vast amounts have been used for animals. So someone says, no question, just want to send support. I'm almost 100% sure he's full of hot air about eating 3,000 calories a day. Yeah, I mean, look, 3,000 calories is a lot, but you're not going to know unless you're counting your calories. And I mean on a scale or food scale. So there's having big green smoothies with celery and stuff in there and like spinach and stuff like that. Like that's got no calories in it and it fills you up. So yeah, regular jack. What I would do is watch what happens to dairy cows. If you go to Dominion, Dominion film on YouTube, you can skip to the dairy section and just look what happens to the dairy cows and motivate yourself like that. It's horrible what happens in the dairy industry. It's not an industry you want to be supporting. They're fisting these cows in the anus, which is perverted and disgusting. And then they're jacking off bulls, male cows. So bulls and then they're putting a big electro-ejaculator in their anus and forcing them to ejaculate. And then they're injecting that semen into the cows. It's disgusting industry. Stealing baby animals off the mothers and shooting the calves, the bobby calves on the farm, the male calves and taking the female calves to isolation hutches and murdering the dairy cows when they can't produce milk anymore. And it's just a horrible cycle of torture and kidnap and murder. Okay. How do I stop this from being here? People know about getting rid of comments, don't they? No. It's probably something up here. Anyway, yeah, it's true. There's a difference between justified harm and unjustified harm. That's for sure. And the dairy industry is completely morally unjustified. Look, if there's no more questions, I'm going to wrap this up. Unless anyone's got a question for me. No? Well, there's a few. Any plans for the next debate? No. I mean, this was spontaneous. There's a cool guy, a professional fighter, I was on his page. Shout out to you. I'm going to get you guys to follow him right now because he made a really... Okay. So it's a... Can you guys see that? Oh, no, it's not going to be... But anyway, that's what is in. It's King Dave Luke. Oh, no. Ladook. Dave Ladook. King Ladook. Dave Ladook. Anyway, Plot Based News recently done an article about him. And that's how I found Nico to debate because he was dropping the crop deaths on... Anyway, this guy is a professional fighter. Anyway, cool guy. So yeah, we'll see. I mean, I don't know. It's really hard to know who you're going to be debating. So you don't know where they're going to take you for a ride or not, where they're going to be serious, what their arguments are going to be. Anyways, I'm going to get going, guys. I appreciate you all tuning in. It's been two hours and 20 minutes, and I've got to get back to doing some work. But yes, speak to you all soon. Take care. And I'll leave this up so you can all watch it. Peace.