 Hi and welcome to the show. This will be the last regular show of the season and we're going to have a special one-hour show today I Don't know how to introduce this man. I'm having the show today. I really don't I've been trying to think of the words The he's written five books. There are many books about him television shows documentaries He's simply described as guardian forster for the game being old crime family and the game being old crime Family is pretty much the family of which most mob movies the godfather most of them Is about about the game being old crime family But if I had to think of one way to introduce this man would be this and I'm not quoting This is my own quote if you took all the characters from the Sopranos The good fellas of the Godfather movies Bronx tale. I don't care what series you pick What movie you pick you take all those characters De Niro Pacino? Chaspalm and Terry From into a blender turn that blender on and pour that blender into a glass and that glass is drawn a light That glass is full of him because he is the embodiment of every character that you've ever seen on any mob show Documented John welcome aboard. Thanks for driving up here from New Jersey. Thank you. Appreciate it. You live in Audubon, New Jersey Yeah, yeah, no, I do. Yeah, that's it. So was that named after the original Audubon like James Audubon? I don't know you know And John I want to start right out of the blocks With your testimony in the gaudy trial which all of us in this room would have would have watched in real time How many trials did you testify in just to you justified into and in both of them There was either a quiddle or a hung jury if I correct No, no one was a conviction the other one was an acquittal a quiddle and I hung jury not a quiddle a hung jury And I read that when the jurors were interviewed they said well We didn't find his testimony credible even though the government when they went to speak at your sentencing said he was credible He was honest and he was candid I want to ask you do you think it was your testimony that was not credible or somebody got to the jury? Well, no, I don't think anybody got to the jury. Really? Yeah, I don't believe that what I believe is God his attorney said their whole Their whole case was based on blaming me and the father for doing all these crimes that it had nothing to do with the son and The jury believed I was way too violent. This is his attorney's version Believe that was way too violent for the son who's not violent at all to be able to control me So they didn't believe that he was intelligent enough to be able to control me which they were right I mean honestly the the messages and and and the crimes were coming through the father and The son was the conduit to me. So, you know, they do have a point and his attorney made Actually did that interview in Forbes and said that they just believe I was just way too violent for most of the guys in the street Let me just send her. I just want to introduce you Rob My co-host today and the person responsible for getting this interview going is my dear friend Rob Baldacci I promise Rob. I'm not gonna chime in every five seconds today And the message if he says there he passed the catch-up that means I'm talking to much talking too much I love you John first of all, thank you for coming up to me. Thank you It's a real pleasure to get to meet you and and for us to be able to have this exchange Talk a little bit about growing up in Queens, New York and how you ended up living the life You did for so many years a very violent life Working with the mafia working with one of the five Crime families organized crime families in New York, but you you know talk about your father a little bit the neighborhood and And how you ended up a life in a life of crime Well, my father grew up in the Lansing, Rivington Street in the low east side of man it was known as the hub for the mob and He was friends with guys like Vito Genovese. They were from those areas. Yeah lucky Luciano's cousin Blackie Who was a North Jersey guy, but had business in the city as kids with my father in the North Jersey? So he was around these gangsters and introduced me to these gangsters as a kid So I was exposed to him at three and four years old. I was with some famous gangsters and He was an outskirt guy. He was a gambling was a street guy We come from Albania, which was a closed-in country. It was a communist country You didn't a lot of people didn't understand the the culture of Albanians and the suppression from the Ottoman days So my father wanted me to be able to protect myself on the street And he was very he didn't care about education. He dropped out of school in the third grade He had a mentality of you know work on the street hustle on the street and Be a fighter to be able to you know not get bullied in a violent world that he grew up in his intentions were good, but What he wanted for me and what I did is I didn't stay on the outskirts of the mob like he did I didn't stay just friendly. I wanted to be the guy running things So I developed because of what he taught me to be violent He was a fighter. He was a boxer my uncles were boxes They were all gamblers and I'd seen violence in the house in the street from where we come from And I became very violent and became a fighter What was it about these mob guys that said that's that's what I want to be that's what I want to be like everybody Yeah, you know you're coming from a communist country that nobody has money, right, you know my family's all broke And you know, there's other neighborhoods surrounding my neighborhood I'm from Jamaica Avenue that you've seen some big money guys and then I go to card games down in your South Bronx behind an abandoned building in a garage underneath the parking garage was behind that that guys like Al Greco and and Very tough famous guy that end up getting life for murders We're friends with my father and and Blackie and handsome Jack and these guys were some of the guys from the Jersey crews too So I'm with these guys. They're driving beautiful cars back those days Everybody had caddies and convertibles and Lincoln's it wasn't so much the Mercedes back in those days and You know, I seen money. I seen suits. I seen power, you know, you as a kid Hear people say well as a kid. You don't know. Yeah, you do know You're around stuff and you see who has power just by the way to move around And where's this money coming from John with drugs and what else where's the income coming from? Well, my uncle was a you know, he's very good card player he was the he was a dealer my uncle Harry and He would run those three card Monty games in the Bronx and he used to brag about Money bragging in a night made more money to Reggie Jackson. Whatever Reggie Jackson salary was my uncle as a kid Used to brag that he's you know, we were kids. He bragged that he's making more money to Reggie Jackson So that's just his cut. So, you know, that's from a card game. That's not from anything else He listed gambling loan shark in the drug business. So, you know, I'm a kid I'm watching these guys and I'm saying, you know, you're seeing this kind of money going through the hands And you know, I'd be eating ice cream in the back room and they'd give me a hundred dollars back You know, you're talking about 50 years ago, right? Right, you know, you had a hundred my father you say don't take the money Meanwhile, we wanted to my father shot. Can I curse? No, you go ahead. Yeah, I want to tell my father shut the fuck up But sort of guys, you know on a bad day to give us 20. So maybe my brother we wanted to be there all the time John what blows my mind is we've had this conversation for the last half hour We're waiting for the studio to be set up and you talk about being a great baseball player in high school You get it. You get a baseball scholarship. I mean, so You got away being this all-american kid baseball, you know the all-american sport to being enforcer for the the toughest crime family But what I want to ask you is how much money in a year when you were like in your 20s and 30s How much money would you be making in a year? It's a good great question You know we had an organization of guys and one of them, you know I want to condolence actually for Stevie Noah's one of my guys that we had a fallen out at one time I end up shooting them and then we became friendly again years later and you shot him and then you became friends again Well, you work with me and you know the street listen the street is a funny spot And because everything that you do is about your image and if your image gets, you know taint a little bit You know, you can't let anybody talk to you a certain way, especially if you're gonna be live off your name You know, I used to say my my face is my wallet So if I let anybody take advantage of a little bit and all the people seeing that that earns that ruins my earning capacity So your face is your wallet. Is that what you said? Yes. Yeah, I never wore a mask never did a robbery with a mask and The people say why I said one of them knows me I wanted them to fear me and I wanted to know that I didn't have to kill him to rob him But if they came back I would kill him so, you know, I was secure with that secure the way I handled myself on the street and I ended up shooting Stevie and Stevie made a statement about money to get back to your question is He said I was the smallest guy in John's organization. I made 15,000 a month back in those days So we made millions, you know, we we had big money I bought a lot of properties and things like that talk a little bit about that some of your properties Just just to add credence to you know people, you know, when you talk about property owned the property It's a ten million dollar estate I had the lakes on it and built in pools and outdoor boxing ring a pavilion of three homes and Drive rate was seven blocks. I black topped it Paved it was probably just that was, you know, a quarter of a million dollars to black top the roadways And then I had properties like I didn't give you address like a good memory. I know 1505 Aspen Drive Plainsboro 2192 Ashcourt, South Jersey South Brunswick had 78 brick road Cherry Hill 805 West Hillsboro 295 Greenwich Court So I bought buildings and houses and you know, and I got a good memory so I can spit out 491st Street I had two units there and I was on park So, you know when guys are questioning sometimes the amount of money we made I can just spit these buildings and properties out and You know, I own nightclubs. I had five nightclubs nightclubs. What kind of night? I owned a place kind of thing country music country music stampede in Florida American cowboy one and two I owned more that's more Raj. I owned illegal after hours. So, you know, I had a ton of businesses I owned clothing stores on my own It was called in Cherry Hill at the candy store Colony Cherry Hill, New Jersey. Yeah, Cherry Hill Park. So, you know, I had I I wasn't a typical also I bought businesses and I got involved in Illegal and legal so my illegal money went into my legal and that's how the government came after me They said that that was a clean of my money through my John in the early 90s You were doing International drug dealing in 10 different countries dealing with 10 cartels and you were bringing in the family Essentially over a million dollars in a month and this is back way back So these cartels are you telling me that you also worked with like I mean the Colombian cartel and the Mexican cartels Are you dealing with them with the high up guys like the chopper kind of guys? Well, you know, there's the Flores brothers that actually testify against choppers those guys did time with me So People that don't you know the the reach we have I had you know friends like that my friend Nelson He'll be coming out pretty soon He'll be doing some shows with me He's one of the bosses over the years from El Salvador MS-13 to to the Mexican mafia So these are personal friends of mine. These are guys. I know I I went on a run I was with the cartel in Colombia. They hid me and For people that they hid you they hid me And you know for people that want to look at Statements by guys like Ronnie one of truth. It was a captain again being a family his opening statement when he was talking against me was That I'm the I'm running the drug industry for the goddess and with the goddess He said it like 15 times on his opening statement, right? So that's a captain again being a family to doing the talking against me So, you know when people questioning what's accurate. What is it? They could go get the documents in the Florida case and see what he had to say Called me a loose cannon and a killer and you know some other Words against me, but these are their statements not mine Can we just roll it back just a little bit John in terms of Your how did you end up working for John Gotti and the Gambino crime family? How did that happen? Fat Andy Ruggiano was a captain in our neighborhood. He was Made by murdering and Albert Anastasia. He was the grandfather figure to me I grew up in his house around his family around his sons Albert and Anthony I was very close at that time with Albert more than Anthony Anthony does is involved in this genre a little bit with me And Albert was my baseball coach. We would box up at Los Battalion Hall. We were all fighters I did Jerry Cooney show people that don't know who he is. He fought Larry Holmes very right this fight Yeah, so me and Jerry did a show on his radio show about you know We were boxing at Los Battalion Hall in those days and then some of this stuff in this genre, but You know I work for them. I grew up with them I work for them and later on fat Andy ends up getting 18 or 22 year bid and Gotti senior ends up taking over the family as the captain and the boss in our neighborhood and but there was an assassination that that occurred and That was pretty much pinned on Gotti senior. Correct. Yeah, you know that Gotti got caught in the middle with some of his guys in a drug organization heroin Some of his guys got caught on tapes Paul Castellano wanted to hear those tapes. They didn't want to turn them over and Gotti used that and take advantage of Let's hit the boss. He was the excuse that if we don't hit him He's gonna hit us and my belief he was never gonna hit them He had a case going on at the time with Roy de Mayo He had another commission case that everybody got life on and Paul was involved in that He didn't have the ability to hit Gotti in them. He didn't have the He was it was too much heat on him at the time. So nothing would have been done to them He would have just shelved them God. He was smart. He knew that John. I got to ask you this question about Gotti Because we all watched him and if you watch any of the so-called Godfather movies Mylon Brando wasn't this You know bigger-than-life guy that Gotti. He was in the public eye all the time Teflon dawn He's a picture of a magazine. Do you think that was Harmful for him to be so much in the public eye like that become such a grandstand I think that was harmful to him. Yeah, I mean, it's a big mistake But I think some of it was intentional not just because he wanted the attention he wanted the protection of law enforcement and The media around him constantly where all the guy other families couldn't hit him back for him I think they're being involved in setting up to hit a Paul Castellano So I think it was in it was in one aspect was intelligent the way he maneuvered the media Law enforcement to actually be the second and third body guards from and on the other thing is, you know The notoriety killed him destroyed him destroyed the family destroyed the mafia and he ended up in prison He ended up in prison because his under boss Sammy Gravano gave him up, right, you know, Sammy Gravano end up Selling out, you know, he's got an excuse why kind of like your son did to me You know so when people don't know the history you have his son was an informant against me before and his team Captains like I just mentioned and Mikey Scars deal an auto the whole group of them Along with the banana family role testifying and giving information against them all been me. So, you know When when guys aren't loyal to you, you owe them nothing in my opinion I mean people everybody's gonna have their own opinion, but I was in a penitentiaries Sitting and fighting a good fight while these guys are all having lunch with the FBI and their informants So, you know, well, we're gonna talk a lot about, you know How you made the decision to say enough is enough. I'm gonna start naming names and But in terms of Gotti Yeah, he was sort of bigger than life. I mean even even up here in Maine We would we would see the news and and what is it with this guy? I mean he he was right out front. He was glamorous. He was how did how did you feel about him? I mean, did you look up to him as a This this is the best of Kosinostra That he he lived it Did you look up to him John? Oh as a kid, I definitely looked up to him I mean these things later on that I question right you're getting a little, you know You're older intelligent and I grew up with guys like Fat Andy. It was very quiet and you know Al Greco who was quiet and you know handsome Jack and these other guys that were in the mob Were you know a different type of gangsta? They were you're low-key and quiet some of it again being old family guys that I grew up with with you know The Carlos Santani very gentleman not a tough guy, but a business, but but gentlemen quiet Yeah, and John was the opposite John was very flamboyant and I understood some of it and some of it was for show I mean I gotta tell you guys talk bullshit now because everybody could say what they want But when I was around with John if he told him go kiss his shoes go tie my shoes go get my car They all jumped they weren't gangsters with him. Yeah, they were soft He knew they were soft so he knew how to maneuver him He knew how to bully him around and how to control them all yeah, and they were weak He wasn't in a lot of aspects, and you know I use Sammy as an example He does a lot of talking now, but he carried the man's he's carrying umbrella for another man He's walking around like a like a puppy so all that nonsense You're not all about that because you're carrying umbrellas for this guy God he asked you to carry is a man. I was a kid. I looked at him more like a like a son You know he had me in his house sleeping in his house I'd be with them at different events and when people question that I was you because you're gonna get people question this There's videotapes of me picking them up at court this video tapes of me coming out of his house It's video tapes with me at the very tonight, you know and these are an era when there is no tapes and there is no cameras So you know I had a different relationship. He would say it you you know you're with the regime Meaning you're with the king. Yeah, are you about the same age as this son John? Yeah, I'm I'm the same age And you so you folks grew up in this in in the same house Sleeping over and and you get to know him and later on you testify against him at a court of law federal court Well state court. I'm testifying against a guy. That's an informant. That's the part It's like what whitey bulge it. Yes, people understand He's a guy that's an informant since 1998 he's bringing the FBI with him to go see his father There's no business with the FBI, you know when you're traveling around with them you give an information from your I don't know Anything to an informant so you know people don't understand There's a time frame here of when a guy's an informant when he's running around and he's dropping dimes on me and me Not just me the organization and his answer is well I was only ratting on my enemies or people I didn't like right, right? I mean ridiculous statements, but the Part that I try to tell kids is you got a guy whose father went to do life. Well, he was doing life He's an older man. He gets stomped on in prison His son does nothing to that guy that comes home a year later You have a guy who Samry Gavano to put your father in prison. He's all over the media You did nothing to that guy that gave you father life and made him die in prison choking on a spit with cancer You got a guy whose best man got killed in front of his children and you got Gotti, Jr. Has done nothing. He's not a gangster. He won't even protect his own family his own father His own little cousin got shot in the belly by a guy named Vito and he did nothing So when people are talking about gangsters, you know, you want to live that life You got to be about the life if you're not about that life for your own father your own family your own cousin your own best man You're not a gangster. That's why he was an informant. He was weak John We know that when certain soldiers go to Afghanistan or Vietnam They're their particular occupation like a Marine forward observer. They have a short life expectancy So in this world of yours the life expectancy for you guys the minute you walk in the door is not good It's this I mean, how am I? Well, you got again You got a lot of guys are faking their way through life if you want to do what I do you're gonna get hurt That means you don't just dish it out like me. I've been baseball bad at several times I've been stabbed up several times I've been stabbed in the head in the stomach in the arms I've been shot, you know, you're gonna get your beatings because you're going out and you're not picking and choosing your spots But when you got other guys that are maneuvering in the background and they They're trying to give a persona like they're out there doing work and they're dangerous guys 99% of them are frauds, you know, you got that 1% that are tough guys are really out there doing work You got guys like Sammy and I'm gonna keep using Sammy because everybody knows who he is The guy shot one guy at a 19. I want people to check the paperwork, you know, this guy's selling himself a dream You know, he they got an image for these kids to buy into and it's bullshit So it's like, you know, my my whole idea is back to the kids again is to explain to the kids Don't buy into this crap. These guys are selling their own stories John talk you mentioned your work your work is an enforcer How many people do you think you you've been responsible for for killing? I mean again You know that questions asked to me and I give different answers depending on, you know, whatever I show when you're not really giving The audience and the people that are listening Facts when you're shooting people or somebody shoot, but we don't check each body, you know If then you got charges of this government when you're killing somebody I shot a guy in the head and I'll give you an example on a Bell Parkway into Bar Parkway Ricky Stratton and I'll say it by name so people know how to guy Larry Cuccarelli and some of his family members were with me They were driving with me when I did the work and the guy died a month later They didn't charge me with the homicide. I baseball batted another guy three bikers. I killed him. He was a vegetable They didn't charge me with that homicide. I'm not a Prosecutor I don't know why they didn't charge me on some of those some of them. They didn't have bodies I was involved with the good fellows Frankie Burke was my good friend his father Jimmy in the movie everybody I was good fellows. We hit two guys in Brooklyn. They didn't charge me with those bodies So it's very hard to say how many exactly but you got you know when guys are questioning that I tell them listen I'm not a forensic team. I don't stick around. I got guys like Angel Costelli He's dead who shot a couple guys with me and Joey Dank actually Joe. He's dead Also, we had a problem on 111 Street and Liberty Avenue and you know again I try to be specific people understand that you know that you're not full shit Yeah, and they happen to be the shooter on this Angela was now Do I believe at least for sure? I believe one of them is dead. I think the second guy's dead I'm not getting charged. I'm at the scene. I'm involved in the scene. I got hurt at the scene But he was the shooter. So do I know for sure these guys died? I didn't stick around. We took off We shot some Jamaicans on a robbery. I don't know how many those guys got killed So it's very hard to give that number. You know what number I do give is I was involved in you know, 40 something shootings So 40 something. Yeah, how did you pay your lawyers? You must have had a battery of lawyers, right? I had a ton of lawyers when when they started informing All the list of some of the guys that gave him more guys. I started hiring attorneys I kept guys like Richie Raybok for people don't know that was God. He's seen his lawyer. He gave him to me So he was working for me. I kept them on payroll for a long time There was a note that he was getting divorced from his wife Sylvie There was a bad divorce and she called me a cash cow in the newspapers The lawyers wife because she wanted the money that I was given Richie Richie hit it What you might pay for a retainer on a certain criminal matter What I mean depends on a good attorney my last attorney was Roy Black's office out of Miami Yeah, I gave my half a million how it's redneck was one of my attorneys half a million retainer. I gave so, you know But I have a team of lawyers. He's just one. I had several others I had to get attorneys for my family because they were all being taken in so, you know, and I had investigators had an attorney in Brazil Otavio Neves I gave him a quarter of a million in Brazil. So, you know, I'm going for big money I went for a couple million and just in lawyers and investigators. Yeah, so when people talking about, you know, money That the money comes in Pretty good, but it's going out pretty good too. John as as Rob told you Rob and I had the last interview with F. Lee Bailey before he passed away. Great attorney and Rob was one of one of one of Bailey's best friends was Rob himself He wrote a book about the truth about the OJ Simpson trial in which his theory is which is somewhat convincing at least to me is That the Colombian drug cartel one of the Kill these two women for Resnick and Nicole Brown for not paying their debts for cocaine You mentioned in the book that one of your buddies stole some money from them from the cartel the Colombian cartel It's just all some kilos and they found his head on a spike or something like that Do you concur with F. Lee Bailey that it is at least possible that the Colombian cartel might have been involved in in the So-called OJ Simpson Nicole Brown murders Well, you know Marsha Clark, I believe was a prosecutor Yeah, and you know the problem is they wanted the media she could say what she wants But she wrote some books and they made some detrimental mistakes in that trial that people thought I was nuts because I used to follow that trial I was a big fan OJ Simpson and unfortunately a woman died in a young kid, but That glove did not fit him no matter what they say to glove didn't fit him forget about everything else in that evidence That glove was supposed to be a glove that was used at that scene of the crime that was dropped it didn't even close to fit in his hand They sent some excuse while he had arthritis and his head swole you could that glove didn't even fit over his fingers forget about this one So it to me. It's always a major thing If he did do it Maybe he had an accomplice would how come they didn't find out who we think then then you got the the officer at the time I figured his name. He was a racist guy made some stupid ferment He made some bad comments. Yeah, so there was a lot of evidence there to really question that homicide You know, it's supposed to be a overshadowed doubt that he did it and there's no way you could say that No one that glove didn't fit him Exactly and and yet yet and possibly had a second suspect there that nobody brought in So I've always said no matter what he might have acted funny He might have did some but people do funny things trust me because when I was in trouble and I was on the run And I was spending the millions of dollars You know the juries they they indict a ham sandwich, you know because you so These you get in a night So if you're a guy like OJ Simpson You're a black man in America and and I hate to pull a race card here because I do a lot of talks for inner cities And I don't like anybody use an excuse for themselves But he was a famous rich black man and LA doesn't have a great reputation of Prosecuting I would feel the same way as him. I mean, you know, so you know people are saying strange behavior Well, you can't blame them because of the history in LA I'm just gonna say to you every Bailey wherever you are, buddy. That was one of the best best validations of Bailey's book that I can think of go ahead Rob. No, no what I was gonna say is with with social media now being so prevalent in our lives and people's fascination with Organized crime and the Mafia as a result of all the movies and Sopranos and everything I think you were one of the first John to to really go online to with podcast and YouTube and then you then that follows with Sam with Michael Francaise and Gravano and others and They've also in the case of Francaise and and Gravano I'd like you to talk a little bit about them because you know them both Francaise kind of dismisses you and in an interview that I see like you were you know He never met you and then then you get Gravano who you know made his Derogatory comments about you and I know when he first came out of jail you actually tried to help him I helped him. I gave him money. Yeah, he did a 40-minute tape about me. Yeah, he had the Stupidity because you're not too bright to say talk about him. I gave him three grand He begged me for money had no money. He asked me for help in construction. He asked me for help with Albans He asked me for help. You remember these guys never even left the country, you know, they're neighborhood guys They're not as bright as everybody thinks yeah, and they're not as tough as everybody thinks not even close to it And I'll give you example that quickly go ahead and Elino got killed Sammy did nothing about it. His best friend Frankie Chico got blown up in a car. He did nothing about it Bobby Borrella got killed. He did nothing about it the Heidel brothers got killed He did nothing about it little Anthony Shorty got killed at bed rocks. He did nothing about it. I could go on Where's anybody believing the loyalty to this life? Where's this tough guy? You didn't you didn't kill nobody back when all the families are killing our guys when they try to kill John God he seen you where were you as soon as you got locked up you talk this nonsense You didn't like God you were in there. What if why don't you kill him? You ain't gonna kill God he stopped you talking these guys run their mouths But they're not about anything and no one's challenging and they'll never get on a show with me none of them because I'm barrison I'm the only one that diminishes their bullshit and you've asked you've asked them well Yeah, I've asked them and they they instead they bring on dummies and you know like Bobby, Louie's You know okay guy. He's a dummy. I just so yeah They can put them on a show and they're like puppets they put the string and they can tell them what to do and say Because they're not intelligent enough to dance these guys I could dance all over these guys because I know they're not really about anything So when they're trying to believe and send a message to the people that they're in a mob world That are that like this genre, but don't really understand it and there's a handful of street guys and people that are not Actually involved, but they they do get it well They'll use their titles and I can use titles to Jimmy Burke wasn't a made guy He was Irish, but I don't think anybody in that mob world was really telling Jimmy what to do So when these guys are playing that card or Joe Watts was German I don't see too many people telling him what to do instead you got guys like John Gotti, Jr Has a title he ain't a street guy, but then he ratted on Joe when he says he was his enemy That's why I rather I'm kind of ridiculous statements of these guys and and who the fanboys that are buying into this So I can go with names like Maya Lansky. I'm going with Bugsie Siegel Like you go, you know so those numbers can do his names could continue These guys throw that title out because they try to bullshit people and I'll tell you about oh I sat with Tony Celerno. I said no one gives a shit and I'll say that to them if they got me on a show I said, okay, tell me when you tell me about how you put a hit together Tell me how you put a robbery together. Tell me where you do that. Where'd you do those robberies? People don't know what went on Kamala Harris is a vice president who was a dummy we know that whether you like or don't like is Besides but that's Sammy ground. She fit the political stage for Joe Biden in America right now That's why she's there only that and we all know that Sammy Gravano fit the stage for John Gotti senior. He needed him. He needed somebody he can boss around treat like a dummy Tell him to take the fall if he wanted to take the fall not that I believe that Sammy's version but if you want to be that guy then Would you do to get there? Tell us You know, you know, you know people that don't know he was in his 20s and he's robbing tires at a back of a car This is Gravano Gravano. Yeah, we'll bring Fats Allen who was a friend of mine who was a gangster was intelligent He's away from the life. We got to bring guys in that know the stories that know what the truth is His name wasn't Sammy the Bulls daughter of a Sammy to bullshit He's come bullshit us so when he's talking about John Gotti John Gotti talk about because he's dead And you're talking about him because his son's weak That's why he didn't kill you and his uncle so we're weak because that's why I didn't kill you and and if you're a tough guy You wouldn't be hiding under rock in Arizona So I don't know what everybody's so hard to see here. These guys are painting an image of themselves in full of shit But I guarantee you one thing if John Gotti was here He would never open his mouth on any TV or anything. He'd be hiding and he stay hiding So there's the difference and you know, you want to like John hate John or you know, he made some mistakes But he was a gangster John some of your comments Precisely why my director here at the TV station Tom and I'll say we ought to have some security help. Yeah, that's what I got Have you heard the name? Do you know Gianni Russo who played Kahlo with the movie Godfather? Do you know him personally? I don't know person, but we we've talking on social media I'll bet now he has been interviewed and Because of your very high position in this feeling among the highest that anybody could imagine He was giving Without any hesitation Opinions on various things that have happened in the country And so I'm gonna give you some true or false questions where you can answer true or false things I don't want to decline for example the first question I want to ask him the assassination of John F. Kennedy was orchestrated or involved the mob true or false through She's gonna get Jack rude of to a false Jack Ruby was hired by the mob to kill leavey Lee Harvey. Oh, true Lee how are you ready for this one Lee Harvey Oswald was not the lone assassin as the Warren Commission said he was True, we couldn't even make that shot besides the miracle bullet, but good. Okay, the final one It's the final one Frank Sinatra his greatest protection as a human being actually came from the mob True. Thank you and the people that question Russo yeah is You know again, he's a smart guy He jokes and he doesn't answer them and he shouldn't answer them because these are idiots that don't even know what true What facts they don't even understand it and especially when you're playing at this level of what's all good about here I know a sniper that teaches guys in our armed forces to snipe so I know exactly we have these discussions there's only a handful of people that could have made that shot and On those angles it wasn't happening So, you know, you remember the technology back then what they knew back then and what they know now when the cover-ups so, you know again Some of the people that talk they talk without any knowledge and you can't stop that especially in this in this day and age Did you watch the movie the Irishman? Sure. Yeah, tell me what your thoughts were I Watch I had you know I on my show for people that don't know I have a podcast and yeah I had Jimmy Hoffa's driver on so he was involved with Maya Lansky was the next fight. He lives in Canada He's 87 years a legitimate guy. Yeah, all the fellow gentlemen very intelligent if you listen to him talk on my show my podcast and Guys that you know again when you're talking about to this level and you have guys that were first-hand guys That were driving video and this guy's driving veto Genovese around he's driving He loved your veto gentlemen said he was a gentleman act like an old Grandpa he used to yell at Jimmy Hoffa field or he's abusing them, you know leave the kid alone. He's a nice kid So, you know these situations are first-hand information. Yeah, when people question guys on first-hand information With no knowledge Yeah, yeah Talk a little bit about your I don't know how much more time we have but this is kind of flying by but You serve time in prison, how many years did you serve in prison? I served you know all together media if you listen to me to my last cases had six years. I did ten and a half on the last case Prior to that. I did three and a half a gun case about 18 years 18 years in prison 18 years of your life and you're 60 years old Yeah, and you and all over all over the all over the United States. How many different prisons are in Brazil? Yeah, I had a good memory. I went to Bangu to in Brazil a couple grandeur in Brazil and Ari Franco in Brazil, which not an advocate group was ever in those jail So a couple grandeur was a little soft. What did you say? Not an advocate group has ever been in Ari Franco I up to that when I was there. I don't know now mean what meaning The conditions are horrendous the floor like what yeah, I wanted to hear some details You go to bathroom in a hole you have Mice rats all over you have one light bulb and because it a grid the electric grid it goes out So you're in the dock, you know Horrible food rice and beans and big containers full of piss shit rats bugs You know, you're a third-world country where you have favelas that are incredibly bad people know that So you're not going to go on a step up from the favelas or everybody wants to go to jail So, you know, you're going to step down they see how bad the favelas are So, you know, you're talking about riots murder water that comes up to the top You have piping that's tripping shit and water. You're so below Terrain you have killings that go rapid. We have guns in there. We have machetes. We have knives So it's how do you sleep at night John? You get you get rains inside because have to have to fence it because you have catwalks above us You don't sleep at night. How long would you stay in one of these places? I stayed there two years and Seven months every minute is horrible horrible We just did a movie on it about Klaus's life story as the boss at Denmark It was a four-part series and him and guys from London guys were in jails with me from Italy from Turkey from Spain We're all friends still and you know, they got involved a little bit on the on the movie And how do you John? How do you survive? How do you survive something like that? I mean violence I got all my teeth knocked out when I was there just part of it If you're gonna be in the mix you're gonna get hurt I mean it's just part of it so when guys, you know, you got a lot of guys talking about, you know Guy hit you or guide us. It's part of the life and you're gonna get it You're gonna get suckered you're gonna get you are 5-8. You're my height. You're not a big. I thought I was taller than you know John how how do you establish yourself right off the bat with these giant dudes that we see How do you what do you have to you have to knock a few guys out? I mean your aggressions everything if you hear some of the people who talk when you say he's very aggressive I mean, I'm listen. I'm the same guy, but I'm laid back. I got a different life But in that life, you got to be aggressive if you're in that life you want to survive and you want to be In want to be you don't you have no choice if you're in those jails You got to be aggressive. You're not going to intimidate anybody by the way you look, you know, I'm not 6-5 So it's not going to happen. You have to be so what do you have to do like take somebody out right off the bat Well, you don't have I mean when an incident happens You got it. You got to be aggressive. Yeah, you got to hurt them. You got to kill them You got to stab them up and they're just part of it You know if somebody shies away from that you're not going to make it through those jails I had guys like Klaus was 6-5 Justin Beck in the UK with me was 6-7 these guys could tell the stories for me. I don't have to tell them They were with me. They know how I act Jesus It's incredible. Well, I got I want to ask another I want to ask another Let me just jump in though at what point you you come back. You're out of jail. You're out. You're out You've done your probation at what point did you say? Okay, and look Do you have any regrets first of all what you did and second do you miss the life that you had? being part of organized crime Any regrets. Yeah, you know somebody asked me have a great on a show. I said something about I don't regret it They're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I can't regret my whole life because it's not possible Right and my sorry for a lot of things and my choices Of course I am did I reach out to people and victims of mine whether they were killed or hurt by me? Yeah, I Can't change that it was it was the road I took whether I like it or not the past is the past I got to leave it there That only do the right thing going forward. That's what I try to do. I work with a lot of kids I work with a lot of organizations. I try to be very upfront and and precise on the way I talk Factual, you know dates times addresses like I just gave right money that I had bank accounts I showed everything over the years Because you know people say well, he's embellishing these exaggerate not just me they say it about other people They say about Russo when people don't understand and they live in a little bubble like I said most of these guys never left Enable it. We're going to 30 countries 40 countries We're involved in a different level that these guys can't even comprehend and then you have guys like I said whether people know People know I don't really particularly care about the Goddy kid, but they know I like the father So if there's loyalty in that life, I got to show people Then why didn't you do anything about people hurt you for not as a gangster just as a son to a father, right? Right, so if Sammy was so worried about that He wouldn't be living in Arizona. He'd be here in Brooklyn if he wasn't worried about that excuse me He'd live where he loves it. So they're telling stories and nobody's questioning That's why these guys want me on TV But the second part of your question was what if I got regrets I do yeah regrets you do But do you miss it? Do you miss that life? The other thing and you know I am honest to the kids too and I have to be honest Of course, I miss it. Okay. I missed the power. I missed the money. I had tons of money I miss it, but it isn't worth it. There's two different things exactly. It's not worth it The suffering that we don't talk about today. We haven't talked about the health mental issues because the physical I could take How about the PTSD? How about the crying because I'm like everybody else. I'm a human I shed tears. I miss my kids growing up and miss them when they were sick in hospital. I missed their graduations I missed their you know when they were getting engaged or you know when one son just got engaged I missed a lot of things family members of mine passed away Cousins were killed on the street. So I you know all that in consideration It's not worth it You gotta be a fucking dummy to think that's worth this life and I show you the treachery. No one's loyal to me They stole my money while I was in prison. They testified against me My family members were giving me up my friends were giving me up my friends that I helped weren't loyal back to me They told me who fucked myself You have all the mobsters. They just named them all besides all the bosses I can name from everybody in different from Ralph and Italian in Philly and gas pipe and a little casey family out The boss of the little casey family prior to that that that that went bad So you got guys in every family Joe Massina wearing a wire So, you know when people saying what are you talking about whitey bulgy here in Boston Chucky Porter in Pittsburgh. What was it? It's treachery. It's everybody's every man for themselves Anybody believes any different for these kids that is selling a dream to these kids. They need to be honest to them So the notion that the mafia was this family and and and the mafia came before their own personal family Well, what idiot would say that you have an intelligent son? I don't want to bring them on They go to school go looking maybe tells you you're telling me if somebody walks in here Would have gone you're gonna protect me first before your son right idiot's gonna buy into that, right? So the day they prick their finger that they start lying So, you know, who's not lying. Is that what you just say? Yes. Yeah John go ahead. Yeah, well just cuz it's a great online But you're sure besides the money adrenaline rushes were one of the many things I live for I loved to fight Whether it was the cartel the mafia or anyone else the number of guys fighting against me never bothered me I knew that I'd be smarter tougher Crazier the adrenaline rush is something I run senior track and I run the hundred meter dash and people say what it is It's because the adrenaline rush lasts for a couple hours, especially if I win. So Were you actually doing any of those drugs that you were involved selling or were you just basically? Alcohol and the adrenaline rush were you doing some of those? I mean when people ask me Oh, he was you know, you hear dumb stories from guys. Oh, he was a drugger I know I was no try ever did I socialize ever and and fuck around a little bit with coke Yeah, of course, I did was I a part of you never I never lost control myself with any kind of because you lost I was a Money guy, you know, you don't make money and you don't last in this life Right be a if you're gonna be a drug user. I mean as guys that use it and takes over guys that drink They drink too much. It takes over. I wasn't one of those guys ever was too much into athleticism and money So, you know, I never lost control on any of that. No, I mean did I ever try it? Yeah, yeah, I play around here and there would have go. Yeah, that'd be a lie if I said it But never to any extent of any kind of problem. I didn't do it every day. I do it once a month They do it sometimes I'm weak like I would drink alcohol. You drink every day. No, you know, I drink it Sometimes I don't drink for two months. Sometimes I drink three days in a row, but I never let anything control me like that And your children are they all pretty much growing up now? I have one son in prison He's in prison on Southern prison. I got two sons. What if I ask what he's there for yeah, same as what I did It was shooting shooting and a gun possession and again He didn't know the guy shot actually the guy came to a house That was bothering the owner of the house that used to live in the same house My son happened to be there and he came back a fault threatened them He said he was gonna shoot him He came back with his hand on there his shirt with a gun when he stepped up my son started shooting How long how long will he be there? He gets a he's been in about six years. He was He gets out of believe next year. Hopefully and and so You were not able to talk him out of what you had been been involved You know the funny thing is I you know at the time I said, why don't you just go upstairs? Why did you stay out and he said would you go upstairs? That was his answer like most kids would say to me and I go yeah, actually I wouldn't that's why I ruined my life Yeah, so but after he shot this gangster because kids are gangsta gang member gangsta They're right the first thing he did was right on my son So, you know this goes back to the same thing and I told my son well now you're in prison. He's on the beach Right, so so tell me how that worked out for you and he sees it now Yes, because I told him this is what's gonna happen and everything I told him he sees now, you know, unfortunately It's not too late from I mean waste a big part of his life He's a kid, you know, he's not that old he's 32 years old You know you're seven years in prison eight years in prison is a lot of wasted time So when I'm telling these kids is you know, you can have the ego I used to have and ruin your life Or just keep it moving and if you really want to fight and show how tough you're getting a ring Go make it do it for money. Talk about what you're doing now, John with kids And yeah, I know you're you're you're invited to high schools and I travel around the world Yeah, it depends on where I'm at. I've been in Kosovo. I was a guest with the prime ex-prime minister who I have High regard for he's a war hero with the Serbian Kosovo war I talked to kids in my country. I do one-on-ones. I talked to family members. We went to Switzerland I went to Switzerland. I did some articles in Switzerland on me Talking to gangs of kids that really you don't have too much violence in Switzerland But on occasion they had violence in Switzerland when they were stabbing each other and I went there I did a speaking engagement. I get involved in second chance programs. I was involved in speaking in Winslow Camden County I did three bids there where in a city kids I go to Brownsville with a friend of mine Dan Hello Dan, by the way, he's got two kids that were killed on the street. He's got one in prison black gentlemen we talk about keeping race and religion out of the streets and Get back to when kids are all playing with each other in the streets and no one cares what color you are Everybody's laughing and smiling they're being taught hate and we try to talk about the unity not division So I do that I do a lot of talks at college is a chief little you speak college I spoke at probably about seven different colleges So before you speak John and I'm getting to your question Before you are introduced do people like get to watch a Movie about you are here, so I mean do they just get I'm saying this guy used to be a bad guy And I was a good guy. I mean don't these people have to I mean Rob and I researched you have read this book and Know about you, but do they know your background when you first start to speak to these people? I mean, I went to Newark High School Yes about four years ago I believe and it was about three four hundred students in the auditorium when I stepped in the principal originally Wasn't gonna let me speak because prior to me the other principal was killed by mop But I'm up so I said to him listen Let me just go up for a couple minutes There was another guy that introduced me was also a black-eyed nice guy, but he wasn't a street guy he was more of a white collar guy and I says if you don't like what I'm saying stop me just give me a thing and I'll cut it after five minutes and He let me run for about 40 minutes because I went in and I said Basically, they gave me a small introduction. Sometimes they know me Talks at mall museums and you know different juvenile centers and so I've been around the Block a little bit talking to trouble kids, but on this occasion they introduced me and I start off with You're sitting here now and then tomorrow you could be me going to college Just like Teddy is gonna go to college and there's a percentage of you guys Whether you know it or not I'm gonna have drug problems You're gonna go to jail for different things and I says just you gotta say to yourselves because you're gonna sit there and say What I said in high school ain't gonna be me We all said that ain't gonna be me, but some of you it is gonna be you and somebody is unfortunate You can lose your life in the next couple years. I said, I'm just trying to load those numbers I'm not gonna get all used to listen to me But I said if I tell you about all the killings I did all the shootings I did all the years in jail I did and now they're listening Because now you capture what they understand today. I told you I wanted to get a call for your Dunkin Donuts to young kids You know, yeah, they think the images and they're probably nice kids They got their pants off the rest that we're in a hoodie. It's 90 degrees out So it's not because they're cold and I walk in and they want to be gangsters They think that's the cool look and they're hopping when they're walking and I smiled usually I bother and I'll say something I'll give him a card. Yeah, and I'll tell him if you want to learn about being a gangster Yeah, because I you know, I know they're nice kids. They're just lost. They don't know they think it's cool You know, they're the little girlfriends probably think it's cool and it's not, you know, that's not the image I have a friend Paulie and I just came home and Boston. I was with him last night. They're 27 years He met me when he was 22 years old in prison or about that and he's 45 now So he did a couple years prior to meet me and then he went back in and while he was in prison So people know he was a regular kid and this is what happens in jail He had a problem somebody wanted to hurt him bad and he ended up stabbing him up bad quote another 10 years And he did probably seven or ten years in solitary confinement. That's the reality the kids that I've run into today I like them to see him because that was him. Maybe you know years ago The poor bastard lost his life and he's lucky he's home at all to enjoy it now But now think about that man at the 27 years if anybody disrespects him in any way any way He's got to eat it And if he doesn't eat it, he's gonna end up behind bars the rest of his life You say you say it's all these kids that want to stop me for that in your book and in your interviews You say you gotta learn to walk away. You gotta learn to walk away because but most of the time you didn't walk away I don't walk away. So I'm paying for it. Yeah, how many idiots right me on my on my social media I got people that work for me on social media right because it's too much of a big I got a big platform now and every aspect so it's not gonna be me But they'll send me the messages sometimes and that you know, I abused the guy the other day He's on social media with his baby on his lap five six-year-old boy Yeah, and he's writing me like an imbecile. So I direct message him and you know basically I told me you're a fucking idiot a clown and What kind of example to your son that you're so stupid you put a picture up with your son on your lap and you're talking like that Right and the next day you erased it. So, you know, maybe sometimes you reach some of them John I want to tell the audience folks if you go to Las Vegas one of the second or third biggest attraction out There's a so-called mob museum. It is absolutely fascinating and it talks about the legitimate aspects of your legitimate The good the bad and the ugly it's right there John have you been to that museum band of chance? I was a guest speaker at the museum and goodman is the attorney that why am I not surprised? Yeah And you know, he was the mayor at one time. Yes, he's involved with the museum my author George Anastasia wrote got his rules right also wrote a book with him about the mob and about his As an attorney for the mob and as a mayor and in Vegas. So yeah So a guard his rules by the way, you said it was the best seller Yeah, and you've got several books but at that museum. So if people go to that museum, I'll tell you it's fascinating You spend several hours. It's what one of the best things I've ever been to I agree. It's actually beautiful museum. Yeah. No, it's not a dump No, no, no, this is their folks you form a very classy. So John if somebody goes there They're gonna see references to you in on several aspects of that museum. Yeah, you're all over that place Okay, yeah, because they do a lot with a game being old family and and the hearings before Congress and all that sort of stuff Did you ever testify before like a subcommittee or something? No, no, no, no, no, okay But everything else everything else yeah, I'm going ahead. We got a couple minutes. We got a couple of minutes I mean John talk a little bit about your platform And your social media where people who are interested in knowing more about you and your message where they can find you They can find me if you plug me in just my name on YouTube you'll find me at different shows But one of them is the mob the mafia and the man Yeah, I do a show with an ex corrupt cop Mike Dow. They changed his life 15 years in 15 years in prison. Yeah, he was from the 75. There's a documentary out about him also We do a thing and we hit every subject politically. There is from gay rights to Neurosurgeon was a very good friend of mine. I had him on the show to politicians I've had on the show to ballplayers from the New York Giants From congressmen. I'm gonna have on shortly. So if I have a very different aspect to gangsters I'm on my platform on Instagram is true John elite That's I don't know me if I got a pretty big following there I've done shows on Netflix fear city Classic yeah running right now folks on on Netflix on Netflix and John I'm gonna close by saying this In your books in your life in your life history if you sat down with the Netflix producer For like three hours, they would have at least 15 series of stuff in the prisons the stuff going this way I mean your life is quite incredible for someone that just literally hit the lowest of the low the rock bottom of taking people's lives and you certainly have you know the You pulled yourself up and and you're encouraging people to live live a normal life basically, right? Yeah, I hope I hope I'm helping and encouraging some kids I mean, you know, I had a bad life and you know, unfortunately, like I said, I can't change it But I can only move forward try to do the right thing Hopefully I reach some of these kids a lot of parents reach out to me about their sons and daughters Hopefully help them. I just had a 13 year old girl on my show with a mom that was stabbed up another girl tried to kill her and Innocent girl the other girl was a gang member So I try to reach out. I have a lot of guys from the street from my neighborhoods in the city kids black Spanish I have a kid that the real good kid at a south side of Chicago Bugatti that is a rapper that I'm involved with I you know I really push his message because he's a positive kid So there's a lot of young positive kids from my neighborhoods from the hoods that do the right thing and people want to reach out to me John elite calm on my website if I can help them or their family you also went by the name of John Aletto Yeah, when I was on a run and one of the times prior to that I had a hook and DMV and they made a new license for me because I was in trouble with something else and You know back in those days you can John one final question. Do you ever worry about your life? Yeah, yeah, this is gonna be a quick answer, but I got it one of my girlfriends time come kill me. Yeah I just move around life listen Yeah, I don't understand some of the people who walk around with a mask and everything I get it, you know They're afraid but that's not living, you know, you got to live. I live I stay in my neighborhoods John Thank you so much. I can't thank you enough for being up here Rob. Thanks for putting this together All right, buddy and folks thanks for watching the Derry Rummet show