 The second things I tell you is that many of the things that the may of the things that we're going to tell you are not the most relevant things and I have no words to express what is the most relevant thing. So, there is, in a point of view, an over-intellectualization of the activism space in the Western culture. A severe, mass, severe resistance episode, happened from two to five time per year in the globe, and the usually happened in the south, in the global south. And those people are not professional activists, are not professional intellectual, most of the people that are engaged in real severe resistance processes. So, what I tell you, I can tell you as much as I know and it's not that much about how to organize, but the problem is how much are we emotionally connected with the issue of the possible extinction of the human race. So, this is the real problem. So, I won't be here if the first step was not sitting and blocking a motorway alone two years ago, because I was frustrated. And I will I speak and recently with many of the leaders of civil resistance in other Western countries, and we all had the same experience of being arrested alone because we were frustrated from election. And this was completely irrational. And this was extremely relevant for us being in the position we are now for many psychological reasons which are extremely more important every technicalities, I could say. I will go home. I have some slides. There's our Italian. And I'm, of course, we have not that many iron. And I want to emphasize the key misunderstanding about civil resistance, and then going on with see the key design factors, which may lead to maximizing success. So, as far as we all know, this is a very famous graph, which was made by Harry Cachino and Steven, I won't get, I won't get too much into detail about it. But what it says is that in from 19 under to 2006. There have been many episodes of revolution non violent revolution or violent revolution. And what happened is that non violent revolution are more than the double more effective to bring a legislative change or to bring down a government than violent revolution on the average. The other things which is extremely relevant and we mostly don't understand in Western society is that those are not election. So those episodes never bring the majority of the population, we, and the vast majority of population will always be inactive in most the revolutionary episode. So what we see down here is the participant per capita. Okay, and what we see on the vertical line is the probability of success for the participate for the quantity of participants. And what we see is that around 1% people mobilized. There is almost 40% of bringing down a government around 1.5, there is more than 50% of chances of bringing down a government. So what we also know, and it just quite terrifying is that we have also some specific data on why we are going to be ineffective in the last 3040 years to bring some legislative change. This study was made in 2012. This study has been made anew, and Erica Chinoweth which is a sufficient as analyze more than 500 revolutions, and, and she has slightly changed the time period analyzed, and she has focused on 90 2019. So what we see if we see the gray line, and what we see if you see the black and white line, the gray line is nonviolent revolution episodes, the black and white line is a violent a revolution is that both are drastically increasing in their ability of bringing and what they bring as the main reason is the lack of structural organization of the. So I make an example, which is crystal clear, according to me, maybe are the Indian in the others in Spain, 10 or occupy was strict the same year the day after. What mostly happened is that there was a very powerful spontaneous, semi spontaneous mobilization of others 1000 people, and, but there was no clear demand to the government, so I've talking with one of the main organizer, organizer, organizer street is a go, and I asked him, there was no and I asked him if it's real, and they had no clear demand to the government, they have some general topic, like we want direct democracy, but what the hell does it mean step by step, how do you proceed to create democracy, how do we win, how do we win a victory step by step, and after six months of adrenaline of spontaneous organization, what happened is that most people didn't know what to do next, because there was no an organization which was ready to tell what we have to do in order to bring on further step for going on with the conflict with the state. And this happened very often recently in the last 30 years, which we have made a lot of spontaneous or spontaneous mobilization in the Western society, but there was no an official organization which was structured to last 510 years in order to make a revolution and to apply general, various tactics and to create a vision and a strategy which was made step by step as in many of the great episodes of civil resistance in Israel. So, there is a first of all, if you want to design civil resistance, general incomprehension about the general public. So, this is a spectrum of values. When you start civil resistance, what you understand as a first focus is that you have to target the general public, if you want to have a past effect of public opinion. So, I try to make an example. As a 22 network, we produce random trials. When there was the famous throwing the tomato soup on Van Gogh, we had made an experiment in several places contemporaneously. So there was some people that was spray painting a some luxury shops, and there was two girls with red tomato soup that were throwing the red tomato soup on Van Gogh at the National Gallery in London. And so what people know, people know about the girls, because what we always ask ourselves is not what is the right thing to target, the banks, the government, but what is the thing that affect the public, affect the public attention. So, more or less, it's like advertisement works. We look at an advertisement, and there is maybe an actor, which is sexy and then there is a car and the actor tells you buy the car. People buys the car, not for the car themselves, but because there was an actor, and the actor was sexy. Okay, this is more or less the same point with attracting the public opinion. Many times what we think is directly engaging with the power is not effective on public opinion, because you are not striking imaginary people. And what happens generally in conflict, nonviolent conflict in Western society is that at the beginning, everyone will think you are stupid, and that all right. And most of the people will hate you. And there will be a lot of, a lot of talking that will say that your methods alienate the common people and you are making a bad point of your right to cause. But the right, the problem is that those are general argument. What we can use in order to understand step by step what is happening, that we can more or less, slice the population into active opposition, which usually is the government or the police or the fossil fuel companies, in our case, we can have the passive opposition, which is means maybe people that only watch some right wing to show, then we have all the people which is neutrals, the people which is neutrals that says, okay, I don't like the way you put this, but you are right. And those are the past majority. Then we have the passive Alice, which is maybe are the relation between us and you, I think that most of you are Alice is some way that we can help each other but maybe we are not Alice so we are not in the street in this moment. And when you see the population, you have to understand that there are many positions, according to your movements and according to what you're bringing to the public. And that we, when someone comes to us and say everyone needs you, because what you're doing is like blocking motorways is stupid. We have to be clear that it's not that easy. Okay. And there are many several intermediate position. And we have to analyze the intermediate position and understand how to make a change so that the passive opposition becomes neutral, the neutral become passive and the passive become Alice and get to the street together. And there are many ways of doing this. Of course, we have to look at the details. But the main point is that, in order to understand, to understand the severe resistance to make a nor reductionistic analysis of what conflict means. So I like a lot to the sentence of Martin Luther King who says a genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus, but a moulder of consensus. So what does it mean, the usually way of looking at conflicts is a the the activist nonviolent disrupt be public in time one. So the activists are in the motorway, and the public is indignated. And they become opposite or because you if you create disruption the public the public will hate you. This is the way the press will try to try the situation, but the situation is much more sophisticated and intelligent in this, and it is an holistic generally. So, at the point a point one, the activists disrupt the public. Okay, and the public became opposition. So they are eating it if they are hungry, but you go on, because there is something more important than what the public thinks about you. And at the point you, you disrupt the public again. And at the point three, you disrupt the public again. And with this process, what we see with some data, and I will offer you some data is that many people become passive support or active support. The more you distort them in a nonviolent way, the more they become close to you. And it is what happened more or less, very often in our daily life, when we think we are right, and someone has a big point, we have a big point on like on a family problem maybe our brother is beating our sister and and everyone and everyone pretends that that is not happening. And you go to the table. And then you to the dinner you say, I don't want you to beat my sister anymore. And in front of everyone. And of course it will be upsetting and everyone will be upset with you, but you make the second time the third time and people will sit at the table, most and try to solve this big problem. And the same thing is happening with society, and when you disturb society in a nonviolent way. So we never have to look at the like in a single time frame, of course, if I go to dozen, and I tells doesn't some strong things, which are true, doesn't will be not happy at the first time, but this is an iterative process that takes time in order to bring change. So we never have to be afraid to disturb the general public, because it pays off as long as you sustain. So the problem is not so disturbing or not disturbing the public is how much do you disturb the public, how long and with many people. So this is the real problem in order to bring change in public opinion and and specifically isolation. So, I want to give you some data about this. Some data that has been collected by the massive experiment made in the Western countries by a to issue network last year. There are a bunch of different surveys that that have been come out at one year distance. When there was Israel Britain was the experiment that came that came before just a pile in UK there was people blocking motorways for two months, asking for home insulation, because it's a very social, and justice problem in England, and they made a survey. You got so very, very adequate survey, very professional on the on how many people distrust them distrust Israel Britain activists and 72% of the people was opposing the activists. 18% was sustaining and 10% was uncertain, but they had more than 80 per 85% of people saying, okay, but they demand insulating on insulating houses in England, in order to cut down carbon emissions and destroy fossil fuel poverty is right. So, most of the people say, what you do is wrong. But what you say is right, and how you can have some massive public change change in public opinion, as a result, with only 130 people blocking motorways for two months with a campaign with only 130 people. The have obliged the government to give 13.6 billions in for improving their program for omission, because the public were was awkward with their demand. This is the point. But when you're making severe resistance, you are not searching consensus for your movement for your practice, they're searching consensus for your specific demand. And this is what the oblige the government to make something when you have this massive change in public opinion on a specific topic. And if you go home one year after we have a further survey that confirms what I told you before, and I can produce this on other countries, I have I have made say I made the same calculation for for for Canada for Canada France in the Guardian produces another pool in October 2022 one year after, and that's to the public. What do they think of civil disobedience for climate, the catastrophe, and 66, 66 for the people supports taking non violent destruction. One year after the opinion of the public about the tactic of disrupting of the of non violent or pacific disruption as drastically improved. Because what happens is that you produce a million of conversation millions of conversation which the people start to say a those people that blocks motorway are stupid but they are right. And after five months that they see you in television is dropping motorways. What they start to say is that those people that disrupt motorways, maybe are stupid, but the government is not doing anything. So maybe I'm not so clear I'm not so I'm not so sure that they are wrong. It's only true repetition that these things happen. Otherwise doesn't get anywhere. So I want to make a very clear example. This is this has been, according to me, a fabulous experiment in. There was a campaign that has failed. Now it doesn't exist anymore. The project as a falling down has been destroyed by the government to repression, but in Canada. During the last spring. This is what happened. 100 people have blocked motorways for three months, more or less. And for asking to put a ban on cutting all grow forest in Canada. And with only 100 people, they influenced the public. There was some surveys that will say that they also have 85% approval for their demand of not a stop cutting or grow. And the result that they had private meetings the government and they have the bank cutting on all grow increased from 50% to 80% in British Columbia. So what is relevant here is that one year before there was a big civil disobedience event. And so many people went to forest in a big forest in Canada, and they climbed trees. They say we block. We block the trucks that want to cut down the trees and then arrived when they and the rest of the others are people in a single day, but nothing happened because no one notice. On the contrary, 100 people blocking motorways and producing 85% of approval for their demands because they had the public attention and produce legislative change with many less people. So this is for me the key experiment to understand how serious the works is by disturbing the public and not by being perfect, but being scandalous by creating public opinion discussion. So there are more technicalities that we won't have time now. So I will proceed over those are other more technicalities. So, yes, I explained this. Generally when when we start fighting in a in a movement in a general movement of course we are all part of something bigger of an ecosystem of movements. So what is important to to see is more or less these diagram. Please close the microphone. Is this low power diagram. This is made for calculating the intensity of social phenomenon. Let's put it very clear. If there is something up here, maybe this is terrorist. Okay, we are analyzing the climate movement. If someone is up here. It means this is highly intense. Okay, there is very few people doing this level of activities. Maybe there are terrorists here. If someone is down here. Okay, maybe he's a level activity, maybe he's collecting petitions. Okay, the climate movement or the pro democratic movement as you are is made by many people that have different position on this line. So, the real, the real chance to make a revolution happen is to bring everyone a bit closer to the vertical line. So I mean someone is here collecting petition, you go there and you say, okay, let's start doing marches. So one is here doing legal marches, you say come here make no legal marches. And so one is here is a swarm makes warming or starboy cutting, and you say come here, we make a broad blocks in 1000 people for three hours, and you say, Okay, we can also get here and you block in motorways and get arrested. So what we what we have to understand is that we have to understand the movement is an holistic stuff and bring it together. So one of the key determinant by a 22 network is making a level severe resistance. So everyone gets arrested or gets in prison is that there are many sociological proofs that when there is no mobilization, there is not people fighting seriously and then getting in a very engaged way for a specific climate catastrophe. What historically happens that brings a new momentum in the movement is that some people make some some few people make a nice level sacrifice. This creates the radicalization of all the other people in this line, because if you go and we if you have only 50 people and you are on national television and you are the biggest movement, according to result. And there is this other movement which is on the air which is made of 1000 people and start to see you and say, Oh my God, they are making more than us with only 50 people, they will start to say, very probably. Okay, maybe we have to run a bit further. So, no one thinks that the one other people are enough to make a revolution. Of course we have these higher and the more holistic approach that we have to look at all the spectrum of people which is engaging in political activities in Europe and in Western countries right now. And the main point of making a nice level, see the resistant campaigns is there are good chances that it creates a momentum for every people which is politically engaged to make something more. Because we are all connected some way as we are speaking here right now. And the main point that you are speaking with me, and I must be honest, is not because I've studied this kind of stuff, but it is because we are getting arrested, and this has caught public attention, and it has been brave. And this is the main reason we are talking because I'm no one. I was a farmer until one year ago in my life. Okay, I'm not a sociologist I'm not a university very teacher. I am a person that has taken bravery of entering in civil resistance with other common people. So this is the main reasons. And so I'm here talking with you with other activists and trying to realize you explicitly. So this is something that we can make on a wider scale so you also can make tomorrow, you can go get out being arrested, learn civil disobedience and teaching other people so we all move together, because we have a lot of things to do for climate and democracy right now. So what I'm going to focus on right now, after the election, which is the main point I want to open with you before a recession is that I suggest you to look at this video to stop climate crisis in six months made by Roger Allen. It was released from prison yesterday. I'm quite happy also since I love him as a person. And this video more or less focuses on what our seed key designing factors in organizing civil resistance. And of course this is all that introduction, and this is the same thing I will repeat you to new to you today. But it's not enough. The devil lays in the detail for structural organization. So, what else I want to show you enough. This is not for this moment. This is for a climate movement. Okay. Sorry, this isn't Italian. And because I have no time to make a translation since, as I told you I had a big family problem tonight. The first thing in organizing a civil resistance movement that can have some coherence and logical strategy strategy is focusing on centralized at least at the beginning of the project and this sounds quite unfamiliar with our standard for with our common standard for its autism. But what has been clear in most of well discipline mass civil resistance movements in history is that they were at the beginning and that beginning was usually made by for six people in a room. And at plan, what has to do, what has to be done in the next five to years, usually, and they had some specific idea and some specific steps, step by step strategy. When you start to make a civil resistance movement and that's to be ambitious. The first step is find four to six people that says that they want to dedicate themselves 12 hour day to make the pollution. Otherwise, it doesn't work very simply. Why doesn't work. Because having six people which have some executive power is necessary to keep in control every key decision and the key decision are who is negotiating with the government, who is making some specific what what do we ask to the government. When do we go to the street and how do we use money. Okay, when those four major decision are not have not the someone that has the explicit power to decide that they get in a very complex situation of a big dialogue between people in the movement. Many people arguing on how to use the money when do you go to the street and then you never get to this is the main problem. Very often with not having a clear executive power. Because we are going to face some climate collapse is 911 not line 11 ecological disasters. So, right now in Italy, what we are seriously seeing is that we will have drugs, and we will out of water, probably before the summer, or at the middle of the summer, what we let me is that many people with software, and what we let me when many people with software is that we will have to take the street as soon as possible. And so you have to have, you need to have six people that can take a fast decision, like tomorrow for other farmers die from starvation in Sicily, and all the nation is taking is taking is talking about this. You have to make a decision to make a decision, you have to make a decision in one day. Okay, we have to go to the parliament and block the parliament. If you wait three months, because you have a very credit complex process, you have lost the chance to have to have a win. Very simply. So this is the key designing factor, you have to take six person that build a project that build a strategy that design and trust them. Otherwise, you will never take the chances and opportunity, and you will take either take massive risk, because we all have seen this in our, in our experience of activism. So someone is saying, okay, we have to make something strong and we have to take risk, and then he gets to an assembly made of 50 people, and the assembly will water down the ambitious people. Because we all have friends opinion and someone is as core integrity, moral integrity and dedication to our evolution and someone has not very simply, and we all have to enter in service to each other, we have to trust each other and we have to trust some guides, if you want to go out of this. So, some six C for six, eight people that are at the core of the secative main decision can guarantee moral integrity to the project can take massive risk, can take chances, and can create a culture of art working so I can never stress how much difficulties are how much difficulties. So we are very close to, we are very used to volunteer volunteering into the movements, but what it is extremely important is that without people that work 10 to 12 hour days, the things we never work as fast enough, because revolution processes in non violence are fast processes. And things happen very, very fast. And without people that are up there, understanding what is happening, things will not move fast. Then six, eight people can create a strategic clearance that makes logical sense. And moreover, they can create a leaderful system. So what does it mean, this is not a fully hierarchical vision of how an organization may work. It is the opposite. The game out of the idea of no one is, and this movement has no leaders, but we have created full opposite this movement full of leaders. So when there are six people that work 12 hour day that everyone knows they are good people that work and everyone is inspired by them. So we'll go to many other people that are mobilized and will teach them how to become leaders and become leaders in their own space of organization. So this is the idea of putting together functional hierarchy and an allocratic organization. But what is extremely relevant is that we divide ourselves from different functions. So, and we have a very, very complex system of organization with people which is communicating to each other. So I make an example. These blue things up here is this core strategic team. Okay, those are six people that start the project, fund the project and search for the money for the project. And those are connected one by one to the communication team. Here there is people that make in the press, and they are only working with the press team and the social team they are not making anything else. And here is the people which is expanding. So they are going around the country and searching to create local chapters all around. And those are connected with the people that organize actions and the people that organize action decide that we make an action and the action a month. And those two every local chapters and say you make one, you make two, you make one, you make two, and this is a way of adding many decision to be taken in many different places so that there is a direct democracy and people in those groups are a 10 people and make and take a very important decision, but at the same time, there is not the total full horizontalism that usually brings to very slow movements, which are ineffective, because maybe they engage in absolutely democratic processes of six months make a decision, but the the work is changing that right there outside there and is changing very fast in a very scary way. So, the second thing which is a streaming relevant is more or less the story I told you before about the Sicilian farmers to start that summer, and maybe we have to take the street immediately. So, many sociologists in efficient CV resistant movement have emphasized two things. Maybe they take a lot of time in order to be organized, but then as soon as they start to gain momentum, they are fast and furious six month one year, and if it doesn't work in six month one year, you have to start back, because you have lost the emotional public and other people who are mobilizing that doesn't last long, usually. So, I will make an example here is the story of a perfect example, this is the story of freedom writers. So this is one of the major episode of the CV right movements campaigns from 1955 to 1964. We have some background factors to understand, since 1958, the CV right movement was bad was in a very bad situation. So in 1955 there is the Montgomery bus by Cotter Rosa parks get arrested and thousands of thousands of people start by cutting buses in Montgomery and then you have a market team becoming the leader of the civil right movements. And then you have some three years of a very active CV right activism with many wins with many legislative changes one after the other. And then what happened is that regression goes up to cook with an expense and they start beating black people and being very aggressive. And so many people starts to be afraid and they stop doing activism. So from 58 to 61, the situation is bad. There is a lot of discussion there is a lot of assemblies but nothing's happened in the street. And then in 1961, some people make a very brave decision, which is not based on nothing, which is based on the old school tradition of the freedom right. So it was something that they have recovered from 1945. And they decide to take a bus in order to travel towards the south of the US and to challenge the segregation system. So they cross several states, when they arrive to the inter interstate bus station they go down from the bus, they enter in the bathroom they enter in the canteen which are segregated. And they say we are black people that want to see the white people in the in the canteen. And what happened is very interesting. That means the south and the interstate port in the south of the US was already the segregated, according to the constitution of US in 1942, but in the south of the US there was the way of living of south. So if someone like, and was entering a white canteen, even if it was completely legal, it was probably beaten up, arrested and jailed. So what they did, 13 very people started from the center of US, they jumped on a bus, on a greyhound bus, and they went down crossing every straight. And they didn't stop at the first date, when they were arrested they didn't stop the second state they have crossed 10 states and they went to fucking Alabama in the heart of darkness. What happened there is that have been drastically beaten up, their buses will fire, and they all have gone to hospital, and when they have gone out of hospital, they have been put into prison. Okay, so it was a dramatic thing made by holy certain people. What happened next is that three day after people was starting again. 470 people have been arrested from freedom riders in three months, and they had a winner. So, this is the win. Kennedy has put the federal government, the federal army of the US to go in the south of the US and oblige them to accept black people in the in the white canteen, and in the white train station. And he forced the law. Why did it happen. There is a question of timing, which is extremely relevant that many sociologists have pointed out that Kennedy that year was going to have a tour of Western countries. There was the Cold War, and Kennedy Kennedy was going around a saying that he was the leader of the free world that he was the bad, the good side of history and the Russia was bad. And it was not very good that he was saying that he was the leader of the free world and at the same time, newspaper all over the world was full of people of black people that was beaten up and sent to prison only because they wanted to sit with white males in canteens or like that. So they have choosing a perfect timing to make a maximally explicit the hypocrisy of the US and to oblige Kennedy to make something in order to save face for the international opinion. So, we can have this timing. Okay, if we when we when we start a campaign we can organize this timing, or we can have a strong leadership, which is able to take opportunities when the right time comes out from the running of events. And this is something which is extremely relevant as a core factor of organizing. The third thing, which is extremely relevant. And without this, everything else won't work. And that we have a more or less analyzed that, as I told you before, in the last 34 years, the movements have been general very abstract in setting up their goals, in setting their goals. So maybe we want our democracy, or we want a revolution, or we want the climate justice. And this is what we communicate to the general public. And usually, it doesn't work. Why doesn't work, because you don't create momentum into the people. So, what they what we think it works more is, is the approach that of classical civil disobedience that it was what Martin Luther King did what can we did what the act up a little creamer did in order to save millions of people from I from ideas. They had some specific demand that the government, which was very clear, and they tried to add the legislative change after legislative change, one after the other, in order to create momentum and to bring people to the wider goal. For instance, the wider goal of last generation is that democracy through citizen assembly, but we are 100 people right now blocking words. Okay, we are going to be one other people. We can't ask the total revolution with 100 people, but and if you and but what we have to do in order to grow is gain victories. So, we have to put the topics that big agenda step by step. Otherwise, after six months, eight months, you have make no advantages, you have gained nothing, and people will get home and they will be depressed. So, as with the insulate Britain. It's very clear in straight Britain demands was 120 150 people blocking motorways, and they asked the government to start pub to start all insulating and starting from public houses, from the popular houses. They were extremely successful. And one of the reason why it was extremely successful it was a social demand. Okay, it was not only about climate change. It was about fuel poverty was some it was about the money of the people. Second team. It was a winnable demand. Okay, it was something it was not asking for the end of climate change or start from year to tomorrow. It was something the government could actually do. And it was something also that interesting for the elector of tourists that were quite interesting the topics, because those are usually poor people from the north of Finland. And they have cold houses. So that was interesting for the lectures of the government. And in the more over, it was a violation from the government which had promised to increase the plan in order of home insulating. So when there was there, they were there blocking waterways. They were not only violating the law, they were violating the law for highlighting that the government was violating the law, exactly as the freedom riders, they were right to go into the white male canteen and it was completely legal. So, so one other point which is classical in single disobedience is that try to see what the government has promised to do and is not doing and point it out as clear as possible. And it is extremely, extremely, extremely relevant. So, there is a clear concept, which is called the clear victory and one. So what does it mean, it means that you have to win something. It doesn't mean if it is little, you have to have some negotiation with the government with the institution and to gain something, because then you go to the people and you say hey we had this. Now we make a further step and we go over and people will be full of enthusiasm and you will and your organization will gain credibility and your leadership will gain credibility. And this will bring a closer community of people that trust each other and really feel that can try to make something bigger step by step, but fast as fast as possible at the same time because we have no that much time in order to bring a direct democracy into these into these tragic situation of climate collapse and such a collapse we are in. And so this is a stream streaming relevant. And this is the classic approach so Gandhi never asked for the end of the British Empire in India. He never asked for that directly. Martin Luther King and never asked for the end of all the laws of flesh segregation at one step, but they were making specific progress progress and at every progress they were creating further momentum and further mobilization. Stop with the bus boycott to stop with the segregation and continue the rise, the campaign for the vote registration and the campaign of burning gamma against the the against the jailing minor people of the colors and every campaign as specific target in order to make procedures and steps over. So, the last things which is very important, the fourth thing which is very important and then I will open to a Q&A and an open dialogue, which I think which is more fruitful than what I'm doing here is that many people, often in the activism space, does not connect, okay, of a systematic principle. So, the idea maybe some there is some action guys that want to go to the street that want to make a lot of firing, there is some analytic guys that want to make a lot of organization and planning. The point is that you cannot make things separated. Okay, this is the main things. So, usually this is a cycle of momentum of our momentum drive and organization works. So, as soon as you have three people, get out in the street. Otherwise, you will never make it. As I told you, three years ago, I did it alone, because no one was taking action either for climate change in a city disobedience methodology. So, you make, you go into the street with few people, you make an escalation, you make nonviolent action, you gain the attention. So, you have a specific demand which is intelligent and people will call you the television, or we call you to the local assemblies of other movement and we tell you, hey, we agree with what you're doing, and you say, okay, but I want to create a very fast and furious movement. I'm always going to enter, and you absorb people, and you can reiterate this project and this cycle as many times as possible. If you have a national project, you can make three, four times a year, this project. This is what they 22 did last year, now we are slower, because we are working with higher numbers and it is more difficult. At the beginning, we have created four, six in some countries, major moment of disruption to the public in order to create organization. And in some countries like in Italy, we started with five people blocking I was in for nine times in 11 days. It was the beginning five people, no one notice, but it was enough for going on. So, one of the main, main confusion about creating an organization in the severe resistant framework is that many people things. Okay, I will just see the resident severe disobedience when we'll be 10,000, and then nothing happens. So he's quite a country. We are seeing is that when you have three, five people, and they start doing actions, then you repeat, and you will have 69 people, then you repeat and you will have an higher number again. And through this cycle of iteration, you create the process of mobilization. And, but of course, we have to look at a lot of me. So one of the main problem is that, of course, if you, if you are three people you get in prison, and you go home, and you don't, you don't make mobilization, it doesn't work. Okay. So the point is that you have also seven people, you bring them to the street, they get arrested they get to prison for two weeks, maybe. And when they come back, when they come back, you have already a team that has organized them to make a tour in all of your nation and go around and say a come together rested with me. So you have, or you have a team that organize tours and make speeches public speeches, all around. This is more or less the idea of a nonlinear regression comes from sociological studies made by Roger alum. So this is, this is an idea of progression. So, upstairs, you have in the upper framework, you have people getting arrested for a civil disobedient action. So, you have five people getting arrested here, 20 people, 60 people. And you don't have all it to do. I levels in resistance. You can also bring something different. You can also maybe ask people to make a margin, collecting petition for the same topic. So you can be more inclusive, you can have more people. And what you see here is that for five people arrested, maybe there are 10 people collection, but that people arrested, there are 50 people collecting position. There are 60 people arrested, you have two other people collecting position. And all these, all of these is something you can create in a row. Okay, so let's make us an example 40 and 25. You make something in the direction of our direct democracy in a specific city. And so there is people that is going to paint. And you ask for having open council. So people need to have transparency of what happens in the council of the city because there is no transparency. And there have to be one day a week into which the public can enter in the council and hear what the people say about some important deliberation. Five people got to put to throw painting on the council. Okay, then people collect petition, then you repeat the two weeks after. Okay, and then you have created momentum and you have 20 people that want to throw pending on the council and 50 collecting petition. And then you have 60. When you repeat one month later, because you have created more bravery, more people, and you have 200 collecting petition, and then you will start to have a negotiation with the local council or with the local government. So the idea is that action creates mobilization is that something that we are confirming over way around in different countries in Europe. There are many ways of designing. I got further. I got further. There is a fifth principle, which is the proximity, which is absolutely necessary in whatever you do. I was a, because there was someone for there was someone from your organization that had written on a blog, a very, very large and article about one of our action and the because it perfectly got this point from from an external observer. So what he said, for instance, was that there was the, there was an art action in the museum. That had an enormous coverage global. So it went to US, it went to Russia, it went to many countries. And what he noticed is that as soon as you enter it in our website. And there was a link, very big with written come to meet us. And there was a online meeting three days after the actions. Okay. And what does it mean, it means that when you try to get the attention of people, you have a very limited frame time in order to concretize into mobilization. And what me, realization I simply mean people doing things. Okay, so I mean that someone comes to the meetings and gets into the street in three weeks and get arrested or otherwise enters in our organization teams. And he comes and if letters and he goes into the city sending out leaflets for us generation, concretizing with mobilization I mean people doing things. When you maybe have a meeting or you see an action, your time framework of attention of yes I also want to do this, usually is very limited to three days maximum, and then you forget, and you start to think again to your daily life. So you have to create as many steps possible in order to bring the people to you, because it's very difficult to make an example, you rent a room in the local council and you are making a direct democracy campaign. So you make a very emotional speech, you bring not you don't make a conference for intellectuals, you make a very, very concrete emotional speech, in which you say to the people of your town. We are for copper with this corruption, we want to resist this corruption will copper for his children and his lovers come up, we have to resist. Okay, something like that. Okay, and then you collect the phone numbers for the people, of course, because you have to stay in contact with, and you have to keep contact with those people, and which is extremely relevant. And then you have to full call full call them in the last time as possible like 24 hours, 48 hours in order to ask them to make something more. So, hey, it was nice yesterday, can you come to the training for nonviolent detection, come to lead to have a leafleting with me in the center and we have a team of 10 people leafleting in the center of the city and we are going to leaflet or are you are you willing to take the street in from now. So you have to contact the people and to always have a second option of what they can do. So the perfect design, for instance, is that you make a public speech and you say people about, I don't know, direct democracy campaign, climate crisis campaign. And when you go there, you already have the leaflets for the next meeting. So you have already rent the meeting next week in another room in the same city, and you already have the leaflets in order to advertise. And you say to the people at the end of the speeches, hey, who wants to come to help me to give the leaflet so the next time we have more people to talk about the climate crisis. And most of the people will tell you yes, because it's a psychological game okay, you are up there, you've been arrested, maybe you are, you are semi public famous so you've been in television, discussing with the nation. And you are, they know you have made something brave and you are simply asking them to give leaflets 90% of the people say yes, we will see you tomorrow evening, and we will give leaflets together. And this is happening only because you have calculated everything to be as fast as possible, because if you wait one week to call back the people, what happens is that most of them will have lost all of the emotion they had connected to your speech or the idea of making some violent resistance for kind of democracy or social justice or whatever. So, the perfect, the perfect design, and it is very difficult to do is that when people comes to the meeting, you call them back in 48 hours in one week she's in a non violence reduction training, and in less than three weeks, she's get arrested. Sometimes we do sometimes we've been very much faster than this, usually we are not that good. Okay, this is the perfect sign principle in order to bring people to the street them, because if they wait much, they will lose the idea of doing it. This is quite important. This is the principle of proximity is something which is absolutely general, you can use it for everything you do. You can use it for for sending people online to your meeting so where do I put the link in order to subscribe to the Zoom meeting for the Sunday evening public speech line. It is at the beginning of the website. It is at the beginning of the social post of the daily roadblock has been done. So, whatever you do, one of the main principle is asking yourself, how do we do it. And how do we maximize the proximity in temporal terms and in geographical terms, in order to facilitate the participation of the people. And this is a question of how do we facilitate the, the, the participation of the people and it is a very pragmatic answer. You have to cut down the times, the time frame between the first step, the second step, first step, usually last things. What we really get to the dialogue is mass realization. So, no way that we'll achieve important because without making a lot of public speech and moving around the countries and trying to tell to as many people as possible that they have to enter into the resistance. There's also a way that we will have a mass mobilization. If we wait to be 10,000 before starting to interactions, because it doesn't, it doesn't create emotions doesn't create doesn't create a change in public. So, what we do in a 21 network is more or less using these ideal model. Of course, this is an ideal model of three phases revolution. It will ever happen in three phases, of course, this is an ideal model. The real world is much more difficult than this. We have a lot of failings. We have a lot of going back, regression, failing again, trying again. It's much more difficult, but more or less having a general model helps you to move into reality. So, the idea more or less is that as soon as you have seven people willing to be arrested, you have to go out there and make civil resistance, not for one day for two weeks continuously, also with seven people. And because this is the only way that you will get the attention, at least of regional newspaper and some national news. Okay, is the only way that you will have this level of attention with the number of people by increasing your resistance for a time frame of two weeks. And through this phase, you also create a community of people will be really committed to, to go on in their life. Why, because they are fuck, because they have so many legal problems after doing this, that they have to go on anyway, because it makes no sense stopping when you make something so, so drastic. And in this phase, more or less, you only need one zoom link, well publicized on social media and on the internet. You're there to have an higher mobilization that could reach 550,000 50 to 200 people, of course. And this is, this is something that you need. Okay, and many projects, most of the project have reached at least 50 people and have gone to the second phase, almost of the project of the network. At the second phase, when you have 50 people in the street for one month, one month and a half of continuous city resistance, usually you start to see some small changes, some sort of partial victories with your demand. And you, this is enough 50 people for a month for being the, the movement of the here in your country. Okay, so the most popular movement, the most well known, the most well publicized, the, the one that goes to the television and to the show radical with the with the with the right wing to show and to to argue with politicians, television, and with only 50 people touch runners. In order to get here to face stream. You, in order to get to phase two, you have to make five to 10 phase to phase meetings in your nation for weeks. So you have to organize five to 10 people that move around into the nation and go into some rooms that have been went in and the public gets on and they say, we have to get arrested the side and you collect the phone numbers of the people and you call them again, in order to see if they are willing to make civil resistance. And then no one has reached phase three yet. I think that German lexicon in Germany is quite close to their working very good. They are incredible and 2000 people, 10,000 people that are really high levels for resistance should be an offer to put the crowd to put the government into a crisis and to apply that to a direct negotiation and to agree fueling to dilemma demand. And I think that the Germans have quite good chances of getting there in the next three four months at the moment. According to the data they are producing, and they are actually doing from 20 to 40 public meetings in Germany per week. So this is a massive operation. This is a massive organization of public meetings. So they talk with almost 1000 people are weaker phase to phase. Of course, they are, they are much better than me at organizing. I should see that you have to talk to them if you want to learn more because really they're not comparison from their level to my level. Okay, those are incredible people. And but yes, this is more or less, this is more model. I try to rephrase it and resume it very soon very fast. So the point is, more or less, is that six to six eight people have to take the major decision which is, what do we ask the government which is the general strategy, and how do we use money, and when good we get to the streets. Otherwise, it will never happen that we will take massive risk to a collective decision of 50 people. And those people are are starting the project and say to the people that want to jump on the project. Okay, this is the project. We are here to be resistant because we're fucking. If you don't like it, you can go somewhere else. Okay, you don't have to make a super discussion we have to be pragmatic and work hard. The second time is the time frame. So to understand that there are some major chances when there are some events happening, like others of CC farmers dying from starvation, because there is a food collapse in Italy, something that could happen in summer. And you have to take the street immediately, and to take that they do that frame. The third thing is that we have to make some specific demands and to gain as much victories, small victory partial victories or full victories as possible, in order to create the willingness of the people to see the resistance. And the third thing is that as soon as you get three people get out in the street. If you want to start. Otherwise, you will never start. Very probably. The first thing is, let's try to maximize the time frame or from one passage to the other. So if one person comes to the meeting and was to enter in the end 25 a civil resistance, I don't know. Something that maybe you will call resistance 25. I don't know. And this is your movement is, you don't have to wait one month before asking to do something, you will make something with the new people in three days. So these people will feel that she's integrated that she's activated in a new community and she likes this community because people wants to be integrated want to make the three hours discussion wants to make things usually. The last things is that we have to engage in creating as many public meeting as possible in order to be an open group groups that is always taking new people in that is not does not become a close group of two people that know each other and don't open the space. So we have to keep the space open and make as many public meetings as possible. So, those are more or less the key element of the eight networks and just the point next generation would imagine a journey and other movements around Europe. And it's never enough. I've done. So I will go to the Q&A space. Many things, what I tell you is I live perfect is only one year that these things in my life. I'm not a sociologist I was a farmer one year ago. And, and there are many things that can improve on what I told you and I'm sure that many of you as relevant experiences. So, according to me, what I told you is not relevant because many of the people that now is in this to an eye level to a much higher level to me. First of all, an emotional engagement, which is a streaming of their intellectual engagement. They have started to make civil disobedience because it was right, not because it was a right strategy, not because it was a good strategy. And this is what is distinguishing most of the people that are doing eye level see the resistance in Europe in the moment. Most of them, they do it because it's right, not because they made a logical calculation on what is historically worth or not. So, I pass it to you, if there are some question and answer space, and I'm really happy of you listening so so long, because I think it was always boring, maybe. So thank you. Many thanks Michela sorry that I missed the beginning I had another meeting as I told you but it's nice to see you again. I am so glad that you gave this presentation it is incredibly valuable, really, and we truly appreciate it, it was not boring at all. I see people are already writing that in the in the chat. And thank you all for staying with us, of course, dear DMS. For those of you who don't know me I'm campaigning coordinator of the 25. So, as Michela said, now we would like to hear from you if you have any question, please put your hands above, but in the emoticon in the area of the zoom so you go to reactions and then raise hand because otherwise it there is a possibility. We won't see you, because there's many of you. I see there is already to raise hands so first, let me give the word to Yelena, and then a lane. I'm so sorry about this. I wanted to thank again for this amazing opportunity to be taught very practical principles, and it sounds very plausible and I'm very excited. But I have, of course, doubts or questions or dilemmas. And the first question is about the core group. Michela mentioned that it has to be a group of six very dedicated people, and how do you find this group of six dedicated people who is willing to, for example, sacrifice their work or whatever duties they have in order to fully commit to this campaign with very uncertain outcomes. So how you find this hardcore group and a follow up question to that is how this group then make a living so this is connected to also how we finance them because it's a hard work. Michela mentioned 12 hours a day, I agree. So this is my doubt and also when you try to recruit other people they also have maybe difficulties to agree to be arrested, for example, because if you are arrested you cannot have a job of a teacher anymore, for example. So, you know, like, I guess you have to be very lucky, but I don't know how to convince people to sacrifice. That's my dilemma. Thanks. Yeah, enormous. Just a reminder. Thank you. We are in a difficult financial situation right now. And this is the link. I think that the university teacher can like, ask 1000 year one hundred euro for making a severe resistance speech about what they read in books and not making life. So, like, if you have appreciated for me five 10 euros are very good. And this is the link for donation for last generation, because we are also in a big economic situation. So, about creating a core team is, I don't have an absolute answer. I think there are many ways of life. I can tell you my way of life was quite easy. So, all of the main core team of financial network is people that has gone out of XR extinction rebellion. And this is the people I started with was people I knew since months or years, and we were all frustrated the same way with extinction rebellion. And so we all made this decision, because we have seen some Roger Allen videos and we have talked Roger Allen about, okay, you have two options is option one is you go to your movement and see, okay, what to make a severe system because we are in a very difficult situation, and you have two months in order to answer if yes we all agree as a movement. You ask to the people that want to go out and you go out and you create something new. So what it happens more often, historically, is that this kind of new vanguards arise people that knew each other from larger movements. You create a smaller movement into a larger movement. So this is what happens more often historically. So the freedom riders was 13 people at the beginning, but they were not like the freedom riders that were part of the larger movement that was not working, it was dysfunctional, it was not producing action and change and more. But the second thing is, how do you, how do you use, do you convince people to make a resistance? Of course, I don't want to give an absolute answer because here there is some people that came also from, I think, some country, which are less privileged than the country I'm from. So I don't want to see you high season, it's not easy, okay, it depends on the context I cannot give you an answer for some people it's very difficult. I can only speak for myself or for my case in Italy, into which the level of profession is not that high as people say in my point of view. So it depends on the, on how you see things. So, but the main frame of creating a civil resistance is up the example. So it's not about convincing people. It's about going out, going out, being arrested and told to your friend about your experience without trying to be bully. Without trying to make this a macho, it's not a macho thing. It's like, I've done it because I thought it was right. And I'm worried about the future. And this is much more convincing. You don't have to convince people rationally. It doesn't work. Absolutely. It's like you have to set an example. And if you have a good social intelligence, so you have connected to many people, this will create new people that want to step up. And I told you, I did this alone in Italy years ago and no one knows it. And, and the two years before making this decision. Okay, now I see that comes and make this decision in one week, because the more people takes bravery, the more it becomes faster to process. It's difficult for the first people setting the example. This is very difficult to hear to make the decision to put yourself at risk. But then, if, if you start it's easier. I go faster. What we have to do in my opinion in the A-22 network design is that we don't have to rationalize civil resistance. It was, it was hilarious. I went to one of the rector of FAMNUSD International and they told me they are writing a two years, they are writing a constitution on how to make civil disobedience because maybe they will deliberate one day to make civil disobedience. This is not the way it works. People in the south, the global south make civil resistance because they are fucker. It's full of rage and emotion. So one of the things we have to design is that we have to take normal people, not intellectuals, to make the speeches. We have to bring out mothers, children, guys, and give them a script from a very emotional and to send them how to make the speeches. Because as soon as you rationalize and try to convince them to make it because there are good chances more than making a petition, this is not the way it works. People does not get convinced by rationalization. And the best things people get convinced to is you have to set up the sample so you have to make it before the other people and you have to be humble. You don't have to bully people. You have to say, oh, I did it because I think it's important and I frustrated with the situation and you emotionally engage with people. This is the best way, according to my opinion. Thank you. Because it was very, very important. This is the most important thing. I cannot over stress how much this is the most important thing. Yeah, I just didn't get the answer. How do you pay the bills in the meantime? You have to crowdfund. You have to crowdfund. It's difficult. You have to crowdfund. I live with very few money and you have to accept that you can live with very few money and you need the help from friends and you create community. Many ways. This is the biggest problem. I bow to you, Mikael. You're like a saint. Thank you. Okay, thanks both. The next one is Alain. Sorry if I'm mispronouncing your name. Don't worry. I also mispronounce my own name. Thank you for the great presentation. It's very practical. It makes a lot of sense. I had one question. So you mentioned doing small actions and winning small victories so that people can feel empowered and they can join and participate in bigger actions and we build something. We snowball something up. So I understand this. It makes a lot of sense. My question is, when we are fighting small fights that we know do not make a real difference. In the end, we speak of revolutionary concepts like democratizing Europe, democratizing the economy, taking it back from the bankers, the oligarchs. We're talking about a radical change, not just improving the situation, but at the same time to convince people that we need radical change and not just small changes. Sometimes it's good for the situation not to be good. You need the crisis are good because they allow people to see that the big changes needed. How do we balance this. How do we focus on small victories without making people feel that all we need is just to win 10 small victories and have a few more improvements. And then that's it. We don't need to have a radical change. This is a very normal question. And it like would happen like another meeting, but I can do my idea very fast. I think it's very relevant what you say. On on keeping the balance in the framing. So like when I make the Gandhi example Gandhi was always been explicitly here that he wanted to send away the British Empire, at the same time it was focusing on step by step. It was focusing on the south margin. So we want to bring out the monopoly of south we want to have the Indian south and we want to use it. It made a lot of working class fight can he made a lot of improvements of the income of workers in factories. And so he made a lot of specific steps but it was always clear about what was the biggest problem and the biggest problem was the British Empire. So in his rhetoric is was always about the big problem was not. It was not the minimizing the problems at all, but it was in the action strategy on specific targets. So yes you have to keep the frame open on the biggest problem the biggest problem is capitalism and in a way we understand it right now it is the lack of democracy investor institution that which is the biggest problem. You have to communicate, but also let people and let people step work step by step, because what we will see right now. I think, and we have to talk a lot about this is the general framework is that 2020 is the year of consequences about about climate collapse. So, what we all know is that we pass one point five between probably before 2030, and we will pass two degrees before 2015 and we have 50% of chances to crowd to pass two degrees before 2015. In countries like Italy is, we will have massive disaster is here. So, what you have to do is that my opinion in some countries like in Italy, revolutionary episode are inevitable. They can be violent and fascist or they can be non violent pro democratic. This is the point, but they will happen anyway because people will start to have some serious economic problem and some people will start that and they will get angry. The point of trying to have some small victories right now and to create some some confidence, severe resistance, non violent, severe resistance and create some confidence in pro democratic movements is that when people will get to the street and they will furious, because they will lose their crops. They will have an example of something which that works and they will increase the chances that they will take a pro social and non violent approach instead of a non social social and violent approach. These will increase the chances, because if you have gained some result and you can tell them this will increase the chances that they will trust you. In some countries like Italy, North Europe is going much better. Greece, we are facing some ecological disaster in the next seven years. So, we have to be ready. So, yes, of course we are talking about making a revolution is only that you have to grasp the moment in order to grasp the moment you have to build some credibility on your on your strategy before. Because, you know, why if you say, oh, we are making the revolution, putting down the government and they start and make a new democratic constitution, and you have one times one other people in the street. And after six months, nothing happens. You won't have gained credibility for when the moment is coming. If you ever make some specific demand and you have won something, you will have made credibility. And of course your real goal is having a real democracy instead of is very corrupted government we have in the Western society. So yes, we have to be specific on the target and also being wide on the framework of course you have to tell people that the problem is bigger than the specific change of legislation you're asking otherwise they will never understand I agree with you. Thank you very much for this drill, then I have one small question. Okay, I'm so great it was so good I learned so much. The question is around complexities around choosing a first focus or a first demand. I think even country I'm in the United States country country I feel like it could be different I would be very curious on your thoughts, just to illustrate a complexity maybe some people of course are in this kind of emergency to emergency material hardships, food scarcity you know and there are some people I think sort of this talking of future climate change is often I know it's I know it's intertwined but it sounds like these people long from now we got to you see what I mean there's this some some people see it as a demand that is focused on climate change for some can feel future, and maybe their life is day to day emergency, you know, I guess I'm just really interested in your thoughts on how one might decide you know do you do you do it the news the news trend something rises up, and there can be moments, you know, do you, of course, I'm just curious your thoughts on how one might choose a first demand with regard to everything you said you know, I know so simple. If that makes sense. If that makes perfect sense. In my case, our first demand we did was a ship. Very, very. I will we made a lot of mistakes on this point, but also happy that we did otherwise we never started so. First of all, I want you to put to the max anxiety, you want to start because to make mistakes is the best way as possible. And here is my email is someone wants to start some project in the adventure network. Just write me, and I put it again. So, according to what you say is right. What we, what they told you is that we are trying to have a social justice demand, which are extremely on the climate crisis but we are trying to communicate the such a drastic aspect, stronger than the climate justice because the public does not understand. So, in order, for instance, if you look to instantly Britain was was for me a very successful example with very few people, according to what they reach. They were talking about installation of homes in Britain, because in Britain it is that it is the 20% of carbon emissions, but at the same time, there are really millions of people that have some that have called because their houses are extremely cold. I believe in England knows that there are some problem with houses that which are extremely relevant. And moreover, it was, it was very intelligent because many of the electors of the Tories government are from our people working class from the north of England where the houses are even worse. And so when they were to television, they were first talking about such an aspect, the justice aspect that it was a very simple frame so we don't want people die to die for cold this winter. You are killing people for cold this winter, give money people to have better houses. And then there is also the problem of climate crisis and we can cut down emissions. So this is the framework. What we are doing in Italy right now is that we have just changed the mandate. We are calling ourselves now, we don't pay fossil fuels, and we are targeting the public subsidies to fossil fuels. So when we go to television, we say why the poor people as me as to pay for the fossil fuels industry with this public money from taxation. Okay, and this is the first time a topic. Then we also speak about how bad the situation is with the climate crisis as a second topic so let's choose a social topic as much as possible this is the best idea as far as. Then there are some other ideas the Germans are making a very climate change topics and it is very small and winnable because it is embarrassing for the government. I think it works with the white public, I think it's very winnable. So there are different factors, maybe some so the men are very good to make a good public impression that a lot of followers, but are not good because they are too big to be one with the quantity of people I don't know what is right, what is wrong. I think that at this moment, the best idea is maximizing the public tension, even if you don't win the legal negotiation with the government. This is my opinion, but someone else, which is also am I in the Germans are three times better than me, of course, they are making an extreme as well extremely deep work. They are making a different choice. So I don't know. I don't know. There are many fighters to consider but go on the social side for me for this is my deep point. Thank you so much. Thanks really just a few things before I pose the question because I already see some people are leaving. So as you know, and as Michele mentioned many times. Michele is part of ultimate generation or the last generation in Italy so there are friends and please support them in any way you can. Michele sent the details in the chat and we will for sure put those donation page and all other in the description of the video that's going to be put online I will post it on our forum and on on our matter most. Also, we are all doing all of this for free so if you, I mean webinar so if you have the resources feel free to donate to either ultimate generation or DM 25. Both would be the best of course. So you can find the details in the chat. Michele sent it already here is for the M25 as well. And ultimately just one more thing so we are going to be speaking about the details of the M25 specific campaigning and how to form local collectives how to engage with other people in your area on our next activist meetings. The activist meetings are happening each month. First Wednesday of the month month at 7pm Central European time you can find them in our calendar I will also send a link in the chat so you can find out all the specifics there. Finally, to ask you Michele from my perspective. So, I was engaged with direct actions before especially before I joined the M25 but what I saw what I've seen as a certain obstacle is for people who weren't engaged with direct actions before to get started to do it the first time. What would you like suggest to them usually I always tell them that you need to go through the ice for the first time then it gets much much easier. Of course, but I was wondering what are your thoughts on that. I don't know, as I told before, I don't think anyone has the right words. I think that the point is the social space the sociability design. So what we try to do the most is that we don't try to think to take it as an individualistic position. I don't think I concretize it. So, we are in a public meeting, we are 10 people, and we put five people in a circle and five people in other circles so they can look at it and in the in the eyes, each other, and we ask them, do you want to make serious decisions and what are you afraid of, and what do you need, what do you need to make this decision. So we take notes, maybe someone needs a friend, maybe someone needs their assurances on the legal problems. But the point is let them speak about what they are afraid of, because the point they say they are afraid is the point to start to take in consideration of overcoming their fears. I don't think there is way I tell people you open your fears and they overcome the fears, because I'm scared to. I think that the point is designing a proximity of emotional engagement so there are many points of that you can see some video of Roger Allen, of how we designed the mobilization of 2019 for extension rebellion. And it is mostly based on the fact that the people talk to each other about their emotion and their fears of getting arrested or doing stupid disobedience, and it's not based on some people that has some way of convincing because people have to express I'm scared of. And when you express I'm scared of your hub to me. So I can tell you my story, I can tell you my story and I told you I find out that it was the same story of many other people that now are leading some some movements in the I was I was upset because there was no radical activism for the climate change in Italy, two years ago, and found this amazing action that was on extinction rebellion channels and there was some instruction for doing it. And it was calling Rebellion of One. And then I see, Amir, it was called Rebellion of One, it was make it was an action that you go to block the road alone with a banner. When the banner here and the banner there. And in, there was a video for training to prepare to block the road alone. And, and there was some, when there was some kind of spiritual guide in order to take bravery of blocking the street alone. And this spiritual guide was based on questions. So, ask yourself what are afraid of, ask yourself, what do you want to say the people are afraid that people think you're stupid. Okay. And through these. Is it me or we lost Michaela. Might be we lost. Back. Yeah, I don't know what happened. I'm here. As I, as I told you, through these questions. It helped me. It helped me. It was not true, telling me what to do it was through those questions and I think you can maximize this. And the last things, the second part of your question. I think that part of how to convince people was the base on the design of proximity. So if you tell people we will make civil disobedience in three months, it doesn't work. If you tell them, we will make a little civil disobedience so they know experience something very easy, something not risky. Like in three days, we go to the city center, and we put out a banner, and we say a slogan against the major, or we go on the, on the cross line. And it's almost legal. It work on the cross line with the banner, 10 times and we block, we block, we block the cars for 10 minutes. No more, and no legal risk is very easy after 10 minutes we go, but you try. Okay. And you give up that after the first meeting, three days after you are doing this very low level civil disobedience. So it's also a question of design on how make the passages as fast as possible because if they think too much, the focus, but yes, no way, like, I think such ability and people talking about their emotion with each other is the best way they convince each other. You never combine I don't think you convince people on these things like taking risks and being brave. Yeah, makes sense. That's really helpful. Thanks. So, I think we should proceed to the last part of the workshop. Michela, how do you see this? Do you want, do you want to moderate, or I know that you had some idea about talking about the new possible DM 25 campaigns. Yeah, no, I think I don't think we can repeat sorry, because I told you, I don't know if I told you but they had a big, big familiar problem. So I'm not that. Sorry to hear that no worries at all. Yeah, Michela's plan was to talk about the potential actions for the future. This is a question for you other 20 minutes I think it's very relevant. So I'm happy that the 25 is listening and is looking to people making civil disobedience for the climate change. And so I want to listen like as a free dialogue other 20 minutes. If someone makes an idea like on the end of direct action campaign that the 25 could do. So one of you has idea what would that would maybe can like on how to use the civil disobedience and of course civil disobedience is not told you like there are many ways that are different. They told you for doing it. And I met some of you as some idea on how to and DM 25 can use civil disobedience. And I want to listen, if you want to share. Maybe I can start and then pass the word to our membership because it would be crazy just for the campaign coordinator to talk about it. But let me reveal you some, some secrets. We are running in Bremen for the local elections. And what's going on is that we will for sure not use the standard political party procedure to do that. We are going to do that. We are going to do the same for the national elections and civil disobedience, of course. And for now, just to get your imagination running some of the things that we are going to do are protesting in front of the big real estate company in Bremen that is against the housing crisis with having a projection on on their building with our slogan against housing crisis and that that should be a living right. And that we are going to explain the people on the ground how we are fighting this with our science, bring down the oligarchy and the housing crisis didn't happen out of nowhere but the people who raised it, who created it, and their names and addresses and we are going to project that on the building with our leaflets and so on and so on. Ultimately, we are going to try to disturb their work by having the whistles and megaphones there on and so on. We are also going to do some actions on environments. What is in the work now is now is having a big wooden structure with hanging ropes. I think even ultimate generation did something similar. And activists standing on those hanging ropes with the ice cubes beneath them portraying how global warning is going to kill us all and the wooden structure is going to be like all over the wooden structure that are going to be slogans like sponsored by Shell sponsored by beyond and similar. So these are just some of the ideas that we are going to do in the next few months but as I said it's absurd for the campaigning coordinator to speak only on this so please feel free to share either the experiences you have the desires that you have your plans or to ask questions even that is okay we have like 15 minutes more. Is it okay if I speak again Dushan. Absolutely no worries. Okay, I just wanted to say that I'm really sorry that I have a lifestyle that I live in countries or in cities where the infant 5 is not really active so I cannot really then do campaigns with the infant 5 because they are, even if there are some like for example in Vienna it was about the sunshade they were somehow insignificant like six people just in the street every month for a sunshade and free speech. Yeah so then because I live in different cities then I try to be active there to be activist and I am now working with students on the recycling campaign because in the Dublin City University or in general I think here the level of awareness for recycling is very low and the country is very dirty so to speak and we would like to put this in order at least across the campuses and now the first thing we want to do is to speak to the manager of the sustainability department to make sure that even if there are some sorting out of the garbage that this actually goes to the right bin because we notice that the people who are collecting the trash they are putting everything in one bag just like in the Balkans. So first we want to make sure that this is in place and then we want to do some campaigns and of course one would be the only traditional things come to my mind like would be to you know across the campuses to maybe leaflets to spread the leaflets or talk to people but I guess through this presentation also that we have to do something more radical and I would like to hear maybe this is a significant campaign in comparison to what you talked about but still I'm sharing. I feel I was very boring because everybody just disappeared. Oh, I think we lost to Sean. Maybe. Internet problems. Sorry. It's like this in Balkans. No. Yeah, please. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, no problems. So this is my first meeting so very, very interesting so far. I'm from London. And I'm sending you an email as I speak. I'm typing it up. I mean, the thing is, I just want to quickly say, obviously you said that look, you can say, you know, what you what your ideas are in terms of campaigning or what you desire to campaign. I'm living in London and this is why I asked how many people from London are here, because living in London we have a, for me, we have a very big problem in regards to the square mile. The kind of kind of like colonial relationship that that that kind of part of London has with the rest of London. We don't really know what the effect that that's having. And obviously in London there, we have a super rich elite that basically live in a way that is, you know, that that and have access to things that we don't have. So, I have some friends obviously involved in the M25 as well that I'm looking into that are interested into issues specific to like financial inequality in London. And we are looking on maybe developing a campaign on addressing that issue as well. I think that for me, as an activist, I've been an activist for a very long time but focusing on these issues in London we don't really talk about and I think the M25 is a very important platform where we can address the inequalities within the city within a city like the city of London actually so that's something I'm looking into. And if anyone has any advice on how to develop a campaign around that or what are specific problems related to London, or around that that would be great to know. Thanks. Many thanks. I will give the word to others not to get too much to take too much space. But if you want to you can email me to discuss this idea specifically. And you can, as I said, come to this next activist meeting if you have time this is where I answered those questions by a membership in order to help you create a certain plan. But if someone wants to have a comment on this or on what Yelena said I didn't have the chance because of the internet connection problems to hear everything that she said, but please, please come, come up. If I may talk a bit about the recycling. I'm not quite sure if it's working here. Okay, here I am. Last part of my working life I was working on recycling, developing a project for recycling for the American army in Heidelberg in Germany, which is a very good insight on when you talk about recycling. I found the best way of getting things across was the costs. What costs what what did that if they could recycle how much money could be saved through that getting that information might be difficult. I was lucky and I worked with the municipality of Heidelberg together. They were the main contractor for it. And if you can come up with costs that's usually a very good driver for for getting people interested in recycling. But you do need to make sure that what is recycling is going back to recycling not as we've seen, I think the BBC or one of them did the follow it up or sky, and we found out all the stuff was going to China because it was cheaper to explore the rubbish and that's if I can pass it on to you that I found that very helpful. Other than that we went through a very big education campaign with the kids we had. We had the kids coming the kids were great because they go home and teach the parents was another way of doing it was. It was the best job I had my life behind talking trash, but you know what the hell that's what you got paid for. Okay, thank you for listening. Let me just jump in now because it was. Please not. Please not from the policy side, we can have this discussion later on. I mean, of course, there is a person who wants to talk I just wanted to ask Travis to just maybe specify this thing about costs because I'm not sure that it works in the same manner in Dublin. I just know that individuals here have to pay additional money in order to get the bin when they recycle so basically it costs you more money to recycle here. That's how government is stimulating citizens to recycle. That's that's really working negatively isn't it. Yeah. Can I ask that for Dublin sorry, I said we worked out that with people recycled used what they call the yellow bag here, etc. Which was said that no cost not quite true because when they bought things in the supermarket so as a one or two fennings or cents on the packaging you pay for up front. But it was a lot cheaper than going the mixed refuse rubbish, whatever you want to call it, which then went to the incinerator. You know that that was the paper was separate glass was separate glass was great recycling papers was good as well. I'm getting out. Okay. No, no, it's not you or or yeah and I told we're just really really short of on time so I'm trying just stay on topic while we have Michele here. I'll give you a line in my email address okay and then she can talk to me. Yeah exchange emails please or even write in the chat I'm just being cautious of the time nothing else it's important. No problem. Okay, we have three more questions then we wrap it up we don't want to keep me tell too much here I know he's busy and he has some problems and thank you very much for staying with us we can really and for doing this once again. Yeah, I don't know Greek alphabet. I'm sorry but yeah that's you being next then Amir and then cool and then we wrap this up. We cannot hear you for some reason sorry, even though it's written that you're unmuted. Maybe while you fix your microphone we can let Amir go next and then hopefully you can. Great, great. Sure hi Michele Gratzimile for the for the presentation thank you. Something that you said earlier on was about Gandhi and keeping the end of getting the British Empire out in mind and I think for us team 25 is about the oligarchy about capitalism and so on. In the sense we could something as a just to throw in there is no matter what it is that the ultimate aim is to link it back to the oligarchy if it's that in that sense recycling you know who's making money off that and which capitalist is taking it and then directly confronting that organizations or corporations or those individuals whether it's in front of the buildings and so on. That's the something to throw in there is that you know, trying to link everything together with that ultimate aim, as you mentioned earlier on. Thanks. Thanks Amir. Amir is also our policy coordinator so he has regular calls on policy if you'd like to debate those stuff as well, not just campaigning elections. Now let's try again maybe our friend from Greece. If it works. No. No. Okay, write it in the chat and maybe we can read it if it's not too much of a work. Kurt last but not least. Hi Miguel. Great presentation by the way. My question is, you talked earlier about that when you're doing when you're doing your protests or whatnot the. Generally, you use an example of somewhere I think a forest in Canada which kind of brought to my mind because what's happening in my community is the hydro hydro company is deciding to put in, put in a power line and they're they're not taking any of the considerations of the property owners their people's houses or the dot dot dot along the road so a lot of the owners are so upset and they're like, even if they face expropriation they're planning to blockade their properties so from what you say they'd be better off blockading the highway than to do it like on a route like we're basically nobody will see what's going on unless the newspapers or the TV happen to come by is that correct. This is more or less an idea. So it is, I don't have absolute answers so it is a it always depends on a contextual analysis. If you have 100 people, and you want to make a difference with 100 people, you can enter in every talk show of your nation, if they disrupt the public. But if they go to the, I don't know to the to the, maybe 100 people, and you are a climate change campaign to interrupt the public on an highway, and everyone we talk about, you have only 100 people, and you go to the public and no one notice, at least you don't pay the government in pink. Okay, no one notice, because you are not the public attention but this is a contextual analysis. So as soon as you get 10,000 people, you get to stop the direct polluter, but if you don't have 10,000 100,000 people. You don't notice. And so you are not changing the public opinion. So this is a contextual analysis. As far as I see one of the main problem, according to China where the Stephen why see resistance is not working anymore, is that we don't use many different in a in a in a full complex design. So, if you have a few people, you get the public attention, then you grow, and then you get to the pilot and it comes a point in which you stop disrupting the public and you have the government at the end of the election. But you have to consider the point you are how many people you have and can maximize the result with the quantity of people you have. So if you have not that many people, and you go to block a cold, a cold energy station. One notice, if you are not that many people, and you disrupt, you disrupt art exhibition, and people will talk about you and about what you did in television. And so this is only the beginning. I'm not telling that this is absolutely right. This is something you have to start to get the public attention. Then you can also stop disrupting people and start disrupting the government probably, but you, this is the end of the game. You have to, to make many steps to get to the point in which you really want to get, you cannot get to the enemy directly, because you are too, because it's too strong for you, if you get if you go there directly. This is some kind of the idea of guerrilla, but this is nonviolent. Okay. Before you make guerrilla, and when you have, when your enemy is not that strong, you go directly facing the enemy. So this is, this is the same way of thinking of war. Okay, but this is no violence. So based on context, sorry, thank you. Thank you for the important insight that you highlighted here. As I said, this recording will be available for our members on locked link on our YouTube channel with all the details of me of Michaela of Ultima Generación and DM 25. So if you have time, please send us the presentation so we can also put it in the, in the attachment of the description. Thanks. If there are no other questions. Conclude this week. Yeah, you wrote it in the chat. Our friend from breeze. Yes, sorry, I didn't. I will read it out loud. Maybe it's easier. I really liked the graph with the nonviolent revolutions being more successful than the violent ones. I was also mentioned that the revolution should be emotional if I understood correctly. My question is, can't emotion be backed up rationally and get the point across. I'm just worried about emotional peeping or being more violent. That's a nice psychological questions, the question do you want to take it. No absolute answer. It depends on the discipline of the movement. So, first of all, I don't, I generally don't appreciate the idea that emotion is disconnected with rationality. I think very much the opposite. I think that there are some neurological confirmation that people in order to make a very high level performance in a in a cognitive task. I have to feel some level of anxiety, or of a rage coming out of agonism, and if they don't feel that they don't perform that much. And so this is quite a motion that is connected to right to improving rational performances. The other way around is a seed that is that there is many people that there's a very high level QE, which is very intelligent, but is stupid morally, and they are going on to destroy the planet, even if they know. And if they made a math, they are very good at math, but they are assholes, because they are not any more connected with the emotional reality and this is that the main problem is not their intelligence. But about what you say, yes, it is, it is important when you're talking about mass emotion, that many rage can bring to violence, and it is difficult. So this is the reason you have to set up a leadership into the movement and not lead there less. And with leader, I don't mean one leader, I mean, many, many, many, many leaders. So many people that can, can train other people in non violence. So there is another side of the story I told you there is a wonderful documentary on freedom writers you find it on YouTube, you find Roger Allen and Tilly Roland, which are two main activists that created this documentary. But one of the main things of the story of the freedom writers is not the only what happened that summer is that many of those people that take massive bravery going to prison when there was no action anymore in the rest of the movement. And when they went out of the prison and they had a victory, they became leader, they became underserved leader from the form they see resistant movements and as soon as Martin Luther King died, of course it is an oversimplification as soon as Martin Luther King died. The fight for the for the for the black liberation in US went more likely to get violent violence because there was not that that leadership anymore there was not diffuse leadership. The best way to prevent it is maximize maximize the leadership. I try to concretize very easily. Maybe you have a mass participation and what what what gun what Martin Luther King did when there were some mass participation and he was afraid of people getting violent because they were upset with the government and with the segregation. He was opening the church at nine at night and training many people in peacemaking during a demonstration. And so they were very, very, very careful. They had like one people every 12 meters that was able to control peace and peacefully the escalate the situation. And also peacefully block someone is violent without like not beating about blocking. Okay, and they were trained to make this. So we concretizing the best way is training people in non violence and and position a dam at the right distance in a mass demonstration in order that they can keep control of the space. And this is the best, the best way. So create as many non violent either as possible. This is the way to keep things better. I never done it like I never worked with one than than 150 people. Okay, so this is I know this is how you make it in theory and I don't I never done it before I really hope that I will get to the point. Okay. So I don't know the details I don't know many things about this very difficult task. True true but as a social psychologist which is my long lost profession I approve this answer in terms of the economy between rationality and emotions some psychologists even say that it's an outdated false dichotomy but that's a whole another sphere of questions. We are past the hour but we have one more question if it's alright with you. Yes, perfect. Please, please go on let's go for the last. Did you say me. Yes, yes please go on. All right. Yeah, have my head. Okay well I was for several years I was the communications officer for Labor International, which was the international section of the Labor Party, and it was like you said Michael. More than 12 hours a day probably working very hard on tiny income I have a very tiny pension and then they started paying rent for this office that I'm in. But then I got expelled from the party because we've got a new leader, and I was a Corbyn support and new leader doesn't like, like, like them. But of course, all of our action had to be online with Labor International because we're members all over the world. So I got used to doing stuff online. Of course we had some differences because we had elected committees and lots of rules and motions and agendas and everything. So that would be a bit different from your kind of activism. So I got new, new things to do and I got just got involved with them. The news clubs in Jeremy Corbyn's peace and justice project. I'm organizing an international one. But I'm trying, trying to get people active online, and to get them to actually join and come to a meeting and finding that a bit of a problem would like some advice on that. If you want to come to our first meeting you'll be very welcome. I put a link in the chat. There are there are there are also new clubs in other parts. I mean, for example, South London, if you're in South London. That might be something you'd like to join you have a meeting once a month, discuss the news, eventually they want to set up their own media, but it also could be a source of finding other activists. I'm also looking at the news of what's going on around the place and what campaigns are going on. But anyway, any advice, Michael on online activism and online disruptive civil disobedience. It cannot be done. Sorry, can you hear me. My idea is that to say the only thing that I think it may work is a king. So professional acres is the only thing you can seriously disrupt that according to me that word again sorry I didn't catch it. Like a care, like entering the website, creating disruption into website functioning creating this function into the government computers. Yes, but this is the only things that make sense according to disruption and making activism online. I think that we, we have to use, we have to improve in online organizing or using online tools for putting people together in a disruptive event. It's something that we are trying to learn. We are going to make a rave party which is almost legal. And then people get into the street and they dance and block the streets for 12 hours. And we will have to learn to use internet in order to add our message to millions of people not thousand people about a king. There is something that it was for me struck I'm struggling with the acre mentality. There's some conversation with some people from anonymous, they organize in a very horizontal line, they have no strategy, no long term organization. And I told them the same thing I told you with the public. This is my opinion that even if you are good acre you enter in the website of the government, you take out some data and you make them public. The majority of the public doesn't give a fuck like a few being very good, disrupting the government website, because they control the information. So, maybe you, you take out some information from the government, and you make them public like Julian Sanchez, but they still control the information so the people that really cares about Julian Sanchez is a few minority of intelligent people. So I told some acres some anonymous acre, why don't you change one why don't you reverse your mentality. So before, before going against the enemy, you make the opposite. So you try to change public opinion by disrupting some small fishes, like you enter into the media, and you put out like a big sign with Britain, you will die for climate emergency. And people wake up in the nation with the phone and they have this message you will die for climate emergency. And then you go on the street on the motorway artists, the public sign on the motorway and there is written, you will die for public and for public for climate emergency, make this for three months. And it is very easy because if you know how to enter in a multinational or in the in a state government website, you know how to change a sign in the road. You know how to enter the television and put something, and you make all it is for three months and whenever you get the chance, you are in send out the same message. I'm sure that it will be the biggest change of public opinion in the fastest in the fastest way as possible. Many of them told me that it's not ethical, because they only attack the enemy they don't they don't disrupt the public. And so I told them anyway, I'm sure there is some good sociological basis some good analytical basis on good sociological basis, but there was a lot of ethical and ideological way of saying, we don't disrupt the public, we disrupt the big enemy because we revenge against the enemy and stuff like that and they told them a, I don't know if you're right, okay you're very good but I don't know if you're right. But I think that it is the fastest way. And I think that aching is the future for being in down governments, but I think we have to make it in a strategic way, and because yes, it's told you, you fuck up the documents of a government, but the government controls the media. So no one knows that you have fuck up the god the documents of the government. So who cares, you are going to prison. Who cares. This is, this is very difficult. Thank you very much for that. Thank you all for being here once again, Mikhail and ultimate generation on special thanks to you. As you know, for the next couple of months we are going to have these regular sessions Mikhail is kind enough to be with us once once a month to have better theoretical and practical overview of direct actions and civil disobedience. So please make sure to check our forums newsletter as much as you can find us anywhere calendar in the end of the day. So I'm sure we all see each other again. I very much enjoyed this, and I hope all of you were many thanks and car to the M. Thank you so much. Have a great night. Very good. Very interesting. Yeah. I love this a lot. Thank you much.