 Good morning. I would like you to have a seat please. Good morning and welcome to the Future Network 2019 edition. My name is Bilal Jammoussi. I'm Chief of the Study Groups Department in ITU and I'm here with my colleague, Walter Nisler. I am Chief of Section for Vehicle Regulations at the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, UNEC. Thank you. I believe this is the seventh edition of a joint ITU-UNECE future network car. We're very happy to have you here today with us and would like to start our opening session with a keynote speech by Mr. Jean Tartt, the UN Secretary General Special Envoy for Road Safety and the President of FIA, FIA. Please help me welcome Mr. Jean Tartt. Good morning. Thank you. Dear Olga Yerevova, Executive Secretary of UNEC, dear Ulin Zhao, ITU Secretary General, dear friends, good morning. And it's a kind of a credit tradition for me to open this symposium on the future network car, which thanks to both organizations, the UNEC and the ITU, who are organizing now this event also taking the opportunity of the Geneva Motor Show. And a few other goals, a debate was whether automation would happen. And it has rapidly transitioned to a conversation about when and how it will happen. A recent study by the IRU revealed that transport companies, for example, are extremely optimistic about the time scales for automation. According to the study, 76% of transport companies expect autonomous trucks to become available options within the next decade. Of this, nearly 30% believe there will be a reality on our roads in the next five years. Much of the innovation and technologies that we are discussing today have the potential to change and redefine our future transportation systems for the better. The benefits that these technologies can deliver in terms of safety and environmental performance and congestion are so important that we cannot miss this target because of undercooked solutions and actions. I would like to highlight three important considerations in our journey towards autonomous and intelligent transport systems that are safe, secure and sustainable options on our roads. First, the importance of prioritizing safety. The promise that technology will provide a way of leapfrogging the ever-worsening global road safety crisis is appealing and certainly well-suited for our human nature. Over the past years, we have observed that there is a global tragedy around the world for the suffering and loss caused by road traffic crashes. Despite worldwide effort during the decade of actions, results have no lead to the decrease in the global road fatalities that we were hoping. The 2018 global status reports on road safety shows that actually the total number increased. We currently stand at 1.35 million road deaths each year, which means one person dies on the roads every 24 seconds. Our imaginations is filled with images of cities buzzing with autonomous vehicles. However, when we consider the work, for instance, on developing international regulations related to safety for automated transport networks, the reality is that there is still much more that we need to do. We need to ensure that these promising tools do not themselves become part of the problems. To early deployment of the advanced technologies and early failures will jeopardize the chance to get the best of the technology in a timely manner, creating trust deficit and lack of acceptance. We have seen some examples in the recent months and years. Furthermore, these developments should not exclude those most in need, mainly low and middle income countries and vulnerable groups. How will pedestrian, cyclist children and the disabled be protected in the era of self-driving vehicles? While we talk about automation here, there are many citizens around the world that do not have vehicles with basic safety features like simply seat belts, ABS or electronic stability control. This is where it is obvious that contribution from the industry is absolutely necessary. This brings me to my second point, which is the importance of industry cooperation and partnership. There are many elements at play with require wide-scale industry cooperation. One example is when we think about how we will facilitate all the sensors to be placed on sidewalks, street lights and road infrastructure so that there is proper communication with the vehicles. To address concerns about vehicle connectivity, there is talk about increasing the number of sensors to track everything from power train performance and operational statistics to general location, informations and occupants' wellness. This is also where data cybersecurity is a concern and some of these types of data collections are not getting a full endorsement from the consumers. We need solutions which are acceptable and affordable to people and to local authorities in the long term, as well as compatible with an economic growth agenda. Large-scale deployment once we have everything in order would allow for easier transfer of innovation in developing countries. This is where innovations are crucial to reach sustainability goals, as mentioned earlier. We need all stakeholders to hold this common vision. My final point is about the future of mobility and transport, as well as the potential benefits it cannot have on our society and planet at large. One of the possible benefits of automation is a reduction in congestion and a positive externality to the environment. However, if self-driving private cars become the new norm with the same average occupancy rate that we have today from 1.2 to 1.5 per person per vehicle, we will see a reduction in conjections and carbon emissions. While we develop these technologies, we must in parallel develop a culture of sustainable means of mobility among the public. This means investing in transport networks that promotes use of non-motorized modes, mass transit and ride sharing. For example, if occupancy rates are doubled to just 2.4 passengers, the same level of mobility could be delivered with only a fraction of today's vehicles, especially if complemented by demand driving public transport. Think about the impact that we could make on improving safety, environmental performance and efficiency from this shift. I believe that the time the promise of, that is time for promising automation and can be translated into reality and help us towards a more sustainable future. I thank again my friend from UNEC and ITU for their strong contribution to this effort and tool in the room here today for your passion and endorsing those new technologies and I wish you a great day. Thank you. Thank you very much Mr. Jean Tade and now I would like to invite His Excellency Hohlinzao, Secretary General of the ITU to provide his opening remarks. Dear General, President FIA and my dear colleague Olga, Executive Director of UNEC, good morning. I'm very pleased to see you all here. Maybe for Olga's benefit, let me give you some history. Actually, this workshop was created by me more than 15 years ago when I was Director of the Standardization Bureau. At that moment, ITU worked with ISOIC for the Intelligent Transport System, ITS. Then we noted that there's a benefit for us to organize some event associated with Motor Show in Geneva. And then we talked with Bilexport to see if they can give us a chance. And we also noted that ISOIC and ITU realized that we have to invite our car industry to join us. Then we started to organize this event just associated back with Geneva Motor Show. So I'm very pleased to see that this is native, although almost 15 years long, still continued. And this time is the TSP Director, the Chesape Lee, together with the UNEC to organize that one. Actually, I was the TSP Director between 1999 and 2006. And after 2006, it's my colleague, Mr. Markum Johnson. So between Chesape Lee and myself, we have another director. But all those three directors managed this issue. I'm very pleased to see that this event continues. It's absolutely important. And also another small story I'd like to share with you. Our Chairman of FIA, Jen, is a specialized envoy nominated by our Secretary General of the United Nations. I think it was done in 2014. But actually, in 2013, ITU awarded him as a champion for our World Telecom Information Society. And every year, we celebrate our birthday, 17th of May. And each year, we try to award some individuals. And we consider that rule safety is very important. And ICT could contribute a lot. Therefore, we nominated him as that year's laureate for WTIST. And fortunately, we noted that quickly afterwards, he was nominated by United Nations General Secretary General as his specialized envoy for rule safety. And since then, we got a lot of support from Jen that he came to our workshop several times. This time, today, he's very busy. And he agreed to join us at the beginning of this workshop. Basically, for his time arrangement, we advanced our workshop from 9.30 to 9.00. While I just told him, in the past, when I came here, the room was full. And then even the corridors are full of people. And today is a little bit earlier. But anyhow, we are very pleased to join us to give us a very good message. You know that the reason why we awarded him 2013 was three purposes. The, of course, the first and most important is to appreciate as much his contributions to the rule safety and his influences in the world for the rule safety. Second, we like to show the public that ICT would like to contribute to this event, to this initiative. And ICT can do a lot. And ICT can mobilize ICT industries to contribute to that. And third, we like to also take his personality and his personal achievement to be flagged, to have international corporations invite all the partners concerned to contribute as he just highlighted in one of his messages. So I think that we are quite lucky to have him with us since then. And of course, we look forward to good cooperation with him in the future as well. So working in partnership for, already for more than 10 years, that IT and ESE have appeared productive dialogue between our respective communities. I just told my colleague, I saw Ogre more than I saw my elected colleagues over the last two weeks. And I was with her last week at WHO for the United Nations initiative for the rule safety for the UN systems and personnel, personnel. And Ogre and me were in WHO headquarters. And the general, I know that you were in New York that day. You saw me. Oh, unfortunately, we did not see you there. Yeah, you can see that we all worked very closely together. So I think that Ogre will give us more information how regulators are thinking about the future of mobility. I'd like to thank our generous sponsors, DECRA, Rubik's Place and Crocom. Your support to this symposium is highly appreciated. The automotive industry is undergoing unprecedented transformation. New technologies are at the heart of this transformation and considering the approach of 5G. And IT, as you know, will have the biggest conference later this year. It's called the World Radio Conference. Every four years, we organize this. And the previous one was held in 2015 in Geneva. And this year, exceptionally, we will have our conference in a share machine for Egypt. Since the end, I think at the end of October, just up to the end of November. And we will expect, we expect it to have around 3,600 experts and government representatives and industries to come to our share machine to discuss about the 5G and other spectrum-related important issues. So the 5G will be further supported by these conference decisions. So that will change a lot in our future. And also some other important development, like the massive scale Internet of Things. So IT use technology, civilization work is more relevant to the automotive industries than ever. And that is why automotive industry players such as Volkswagen, Yongdae, China's telematics industry application alliance, Bush, Blackberry, Tata Communications, and Mitsubishi Electric have joined ITU very recently. By joining the ITU's activities, they are helping to shape international standards that protect and encourage key investment, improve road safety, and help build intelligent transport systems, of course, also for the autonomous driving technologies. The ITU standardization platform for many years central to building trust in the ICT sector is now helping the ICT sector to build trust with its many new partners. We see this in areas such as energy, healthcare, financial services, and of course transport. ITU addresses the intelligent transport in our standardization work for radio communications, security, multimedia, performance, and quality of service and road safety. The future of mobility will be crafted in collaboration by the public and private sectors, the automotive and ICT industries and their respective regulators, and the many new market segment emerging at the intersection of vehicles and ICT. Open inclusive standardization process will help these partners to move forward on the basis of mutual trust. So ladies and gentlemen, this symposium will offer ITU future guidance as to how we could best support the automotive industry in achieving its ICT ambitions. I would like to thank our program steering committee for ranking an excellent lineup of speakers. We are also fortunate to welcome a diverse expert audience. We can look forward to highly interactive discussions today. So I thank you all for your participation and wish you a most enjoyable symposium. The last word, last night, I cut by half my speech. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Saou. As the next speaker, I would like to invite her Excellency Olga Algarerova, Executive Secretary and Undersecretary General of the United Nations. Distinguished Secretary General, Special Envoy Durjan, Distinguished ITU Secretary General Dear Hulin, ladies and gentlemen, good morning. It's my pleasure to be here with you and I hope you all will agree with me that we leave the times of great challenges of very fast technological development, the proof of it we could see with the race car downstairs when I was astonished by, I didn't see it, something like that before. So and of course it relates also to the area of mobility of persons, of transport of goods. So if you allow me, let us travel together for a short moment to the future, how the mobility and transport might look like in the future. What's the vision of that? Imagine passengers taken by driverless cars to their destinations, children driven by automated vehicles to and from school, safe and individual mobility for elderly and those with disabilities, goods delivered to our houses by autonomous pods, platoons of trucks without drivers moving cargo across countries and all of this is happening without significant accidents and injuries without traffic congestions with minimal pollution. So in other words, it's a safe, secure and environmentally friendly vision. So it is also a picture of sustainable transport as I did the best. So you may ask how do we achieve such a vision? Technology definitely will advance and we need to harness it to satisfy the needs of our societies. Among the most fundamental needs, they are safety, security and environmental preservation. Governments around the world discuss this topic when they gathered at the UN in February for the annual session of the UN EC's Inland Transport Committee, aiming to capitalize on the potential of automation in inland transport to accelerate the implementation of the 2030 agenda for sustainable development. Ministers and vice ministers of transport and representatives of 31 countries adopted a resolution on enhancing cooperation, harmonization and integration in the era of transport automation. The resolution itself enshrines the commitment of countries to ensure that the accelerated pace of innovation in transport automation and digitalization will be characterized by harmonization and interoperability as well as the highest level of safety, environmental sustainability, equal access and the enhanced integration of multiple modes of mobility. So how can we meet all these goals? The key is that all of us, academia, private sector, governments, international organizations collaborate on developing and facilitating this vision of future sustainable transport. We have to work together towards the same goal and break the silos. Such collaboration already exists in the UN system. There is a long-lasting and well-established cooperation between the International Telecommunication Union, even you have heard Hulind told that he meets me more frequently than his colleagues and of course between ITU and the UN Economic Commission for Europe or UN EC. This cooperation already today bears many fruits. For example, even today, but even more importantly is our daily cooperation. UN EC hosts the World Forum for Harmonization of Vehicle Regulations, the famous Working Party 29, which is a unique body for setting a global regulatory framework for the certification of vehicles, departs, systems and components. Last year, Working Party 29 established a new working party on automated or autonomous and connected vehicles. Therein we work not only with governments, industry, academia and NGOs, but also benefit from the rich expertise of ITU representatives. Our cooperation has already achieved results on cyber security and over the year, software updates building a new annex of the consolidated resolution on the construction of vehicles, so-called RE3. Another example could be the UN Regulation 144 on ecosystems, the first UN regulation that covers the connectivity of cars. This makes an ITU standard compulsory for vehicle approval. By working together, by exchanging information in an open and transparent way, by supplementing each other's expertise, by creating a level playing field for all involved, we can build a modern, effective and harmonized regulatory framework. This is needed to make connected vehicles safe, secure, consistent with traffic rules, interoperable across borders and compatible with infrastructure. Such a cooperation is not optional. It is, in fact, imperative. We may not reach our vision unless there is coordinated cooperation among all stakeholders. All the more, I look forward to working with all of you. My last comment would be there are so few women in the room, so I believe that the innovation and technological advances must be also a women issue. Thank you so much for your attention. Thank you very much Ms. Olga, excellency. Thank you all for our opening panel. Please, let's give them another round of applause to thank them. And now I'd like to invite our first panel, session one, which will be chaired and moderated by Mr. Russ Shields, the chair of Waigomi. So Russ, I'd like to invite you to the stage and perhaps you can invite your speakers. So join us, Springer, Teodor, Dino, Ann, Marjorie, Eddie, Andre, Michael, please come to the stage. Thank you. All right. I'm very pleased to see this audience. Most of the rest of today is going to be working from this side. So those of you who are sitting over on the other side may want to move over. Fortunately, we were able to get a bigger room this year than previous years since we were standing only in the previous room. We're trying to do something, I think, relatively unique in events. The program committee spent a lot of time and decided that what we really would like to try is much more open discussion, audience interaction. So we set these up as long panels. This is scheduled for an hour and 40 minutes with eight participants. And we really want it to be discussions as the audience would like to hear. So it's a guess to do this. I've never tried it before in any of the things. So what we will do is we'll have five minutes for each of the panelists to say whatever they want and another 30 seconds for them to introduce do some cells because I'm not going to try to go through everybody. I apologize that I will mispronounce names since I'm an American who knows nothing about languages and screws things up all the time. Just quickly, my background is here. I am chair of the ITU collaboration and ITS communication standards, as was mentioned. One of the key things is the interaction with UNECE and WP29 World Forum for Harmonization of Vehicle Regulations. And I'm one of the ITU participants in that activity, which is getting me to Geneva a lot more than I ever expected. But we have to get the regulations right for connected and automated vehicles. And it's a tremendously important part. And the last panel today is put together by the WP29 participants to give you a better understanding and hope of what's being done there. This session is talking about V2X and where we go. Partially, I'm here because I'm the guy 20 years ago when we first got the 5.9 gigahertz allocation from the FCC in the U.S. who decided that we really needed a TDD OFDM approach for vehicle communications. And at that time, 802.11A was literally the only OFDM TDD standard that existed in the communications world. So we said we would use that for testing. And since we needed to test something, said, well, let's go try here I am message so that we could test the protocol. We're now 20 years later. And what we're going to do, I don't know. So let's hear the discussion. So Johannes, I'll let you start. Yeah, thanks. Thanks Russell. Short personal introduction. I'm Johannes Springer. I'm working for Deutsche Telekom group and responsible there for the 5G automotive program inside Deutsche Telekom. And I'm also the director general of the 5G automotive association. And that is my today's job to represent that 5G automotive association. Very brief description of the 5G automotive association was formed three years ago, consists of about 110 members, mainly consisting of the car manufacturers around the globe. It's a global organization with the first year suppliers of the car industry. The major tech companies who are providing technology for the equipment in the car, but also for telecommunications purposes like Intel, for instance, and Samsung, Qualcomm and others. And the suppliers of the telecommunication industry and the operators of mobile networks around the globe. So these are 110 members formed three years ago, very intensively working in different working groups on several aspects around cellular vehicle to X and what we can do to increase the usage of these technologies into the system. So with regard to the five minutes, I want to make two statements and which are important from my perspective. So the first statement is around let's say a common sense a common agreement and that was also written in the program. And that common agreement in the industry is from our perspective that cellular networks play a very important role when it comes to efficient and safe transportation in general. So not only with regard to cars, but also with regard to other transportation means and the usage of cellular networks for several purposes and the common agreement that every vehicle, every new vehicle will be equipped with cellular technology for several purposes, but also for safety that common agreement is from my perspective, it is a pity that we are not using the full power of that technology, especially for safety. We have a lot of information which is right now available in transportation networks, which could be used for several purposes, but it is not used on a broad scale. And we should discuss about why is that happen that these kind of information is not used widely for several purposes. And one of the reasons I believe is that we are focusing, especially if it comes to safety, we are focusing very quickly to exactly that technology what you have mentioned Russell in your introduction and that is a peer-to-peer communication. We always think that safety only is only relevant if we are making a direct communication between communication partners and that is not true. We have a lot of safety examples which are today used in some cars at some car manufacturers, but not as I said on a widely scale, where safety related information can play an important role, but it is not used. So let us discuss how to also from a political area we can increase the speed of using this kind of information, traffic jam information, hazard warnings which are on the road, the signal phase and time which is there which can play an important role transmitted by via cellular information. How to use this in a broader scale in the weekends because there is a common sense that every new vehicle and also other traffic participants are equipped with cellular connectivity already today. So that is the first point. The second point is how can we bring the whole ecosystem forward when it comes to peer-to-peer communication? I think that is very important Russell when we are looking back into the past 20 years back and I can remember very nicely on an ITS World Congress in Vienna 2012 where we sat together on a panel and from your perspective came the first have a deeper look into the 3GPP ecosystem when it comes to release 12 and the direct communication needs and right now we have a big let's say a big fight in the industry. What is the right technology for peer-to-peer communication? We have cellular vehicle to X on the one hand side and we have Wi-Fi 11p DSRC on the other hand side and they are doing more or less both both the same and the question is how can we bring an ecosystem forward if we have this kind of disagreement and that is a clear disagreement in the industry how we can bring forward an ecosystem if there is a clear disagreement between the major players and by the way that is not a disagreement between industries because the telco industry has a very clear view with regard to CV2X it is a disagreement within the road operator but also within the car manufacturer industry and the question is how we can bring an ecosystem forward if we have this kind of big disagreement between technologies and from a 5GA perspective we have a very clear perspective on that and that perspective is let the market decide let the forces in the market the customer benefits the benefits for the society the benefits for the road operators let these benefits decide what is the right technology and what is the right direction where we should go and that is the second point I would like to point out in that in that discussion yeah how to bring an ecosystem forward if we have a very clear disagreement in the industry how to go and what direction we have to go thank you thank you okay second no no applause this is a working session um Theodore do you want to go ahead yes no is it working now no let's take the other one just wait is this one working yes so again thank you Johannes for the words I think this discussion it's something we had in a lot of different for us and I was very pleased when Russell contact me and say Theodore you're a guy also supporting DSRC or 11p please come to the panel and tell us how do you see the world but before going to this question maybe a couple of words about me I'm with the Volkswagen brand with Volkswagen group in Wolfsburg and there I'm responsible for integrated wireless technologies into the connected vehicles and basically providing solutions which we can build in our future vehicles and vehicles which are going to come on the market and my biggest challenge is always getting the right technology for the right problem and currently we are incorporating a lot of technologies inside our connectivity solutions we have bluetooth solutions we've had wi-fi solutions and we also have a lot of cellular solutions and the biggest challenge is getting all of them to work together and using them in the most optimal way and when it comes to the question of V2X or V2X communication we are currently as a Volkswagen supporting the DSRC it's a technology we are also planning on putting on the market this year in one of our the biggest volume vehicle we are producing from Volkswagen and I always get the question why do you do this why do you still supporting DSRC and basically that's the point yes it was also when speaking with Dino before why tell why are still doing this and basically I wrote down a couple of things so for everybody and it's not a lot about technology when looking at the technologies itself the technology is the perfect technology for what it was supposed to do I think Rasa also told it 20 years ago we wanted to do something to have vehicles communicate and it's still valid today for what it was designed to be for having peer-to-peer communication between vehicles it's still the best available solution because it was designed to do it like this and it's not just being designed to do exactly this but it was tested and researched in the past I wouldn't say 20 years but let's say in the past seven to eight years it was tested and standardized so that everybody can use the same technology in all of the vehicles and basically that's why when I'm looking as a car manufacturer and wanted to do something I need a tool for solving a problem I'm seeing that's the right tool at this moment in time it also when scales pretty well when looking at the spectrum needs because basically it's also very simple in nature if you can communicate with another vehicle then you should communicate with it and you don't really need to have some other third party or some other network operator telling you how to do it that's why in this regard it's also pretty simple to deploy and to use and it all those scales very well without additional spectrum needs because basically you use the spectrum only around yourself you don't really care what spectrum and how the communication works in true three kilometers away because your vehicle that it's not there physically yet you only need to use the spectrum and the communication around you and because it simply don't really have a lot of problems with getting the timing synchronized and getting the having problems with the high speeds of the different vehicle for us is just basically saying it just works for exactly what you needed for V2X the second point what why it's important for us and why we are deploying this it's the deployment itself I was also telling Dino before what the wireless technology basically is it's just a small part how it's working what's the modulation what's the spectrum and so on the biggest challenge we have or let's say what 80% of my daily work is getting this technology integrated inside a vehicle you have to have antennas you have to have several antennas maybe inside a vehicle which need to work together because unlike a cellular communication where you have a communication between a vehicle and a base station the most of the communication with other vehicles happens in one and a half meters above the surface and there the chassis of the vehicles plays a very important role that's why it's a very interesting question what kind of antenna patterns or how many antennas do you use in order to enable a vehicle to communicate itself so getting one or another technology inside a vehicle it's still a challenge for doing this and it's really helps up for not having an for having a let's say simple way of communicating you see the other vehicle you communicate with it you don't care who's provided with the OEM behind this vehicle you don't care about having a contract you don't care about having some operator or some coordinator telling you how to use the spectrum and how not to use the spectrum and since it's that old the technology when the basis was set it's very attractive for us from the risk management perspective because we really have a pretty good overview on the cost of the technology on the IPR of the technology and basically the operator costs behind them which are not existing at this point in time and basically these are the true main drivers for for putting the technology inside our vehicle the technology it's perfect for what was designed to do and it's still there is no problem with the technology and secondly it's very well deployable inside the vehicle it really is well matched for what we want to put it inside the vehicle which is a little bit different from putting it inside the smartphone but since we are the future network I also wanted to think about how do you see the future because we see of course there is a lot of I've been also last week at the Mobile World Congress and everybody's speaking about 5G and how the future will look like and at least from my point of view we see also in the future that will have different communication technologies inside the vehicle each of them doing what they better can do connect the different wearables of the driver for example your user in Bluetooth or having the users located them around the vehicle using Bluetooth you also have Wi-Fi which enables you to upload a lot of the traffic you need to put inside the vehicles the vehicles will need a lot of data into the future you also have a lot of cellular communication for providing information from the network to the vehicle I don't think we'll I think I'm fully agreeing with your harness that 100% of the vehicles coming will have a cellular communication but we also think that they would have a V2V communication and V2RX communication based on the SRC and basically that's also what we are working on it's not just what we have now we already heard that both technologies are doing more or less the same we're also working as a Volkswagen on bringing the future US cases I myself it's not just I'm working for Volkswagen but I'm also the chair of the working group 1 inside the 8CTC ITS where we basically are standardizing the day 2 and day 3 application which move in the direction of automated driving where when we'll have vehicles starting to calculate trajectories not with the driver but having an automated calculating this that they are able to share this trajectory the other automated driving vehicles in order to synchronize and basically go into the direction of having fully autonomously vehicle and also colleagues of mine from the research department are looking how this scenarios and situation can be realized using the SRC and up until now I don't see any problem coming from them basically the evolution path we have from the SRC also based on the Wi-Fi evolution path with a ACAX and now the BD working group starting by the right to pull in it's covering some of these issues so basically yes unfortunately I also see a more or less split market inside the automotive industry we have different players supporting different technologies from my point of view I see most of the volume manufacturers like GM like a Toyota like a Volkswagen supporting the SRC because it's easier to get it into huge mass of vehicles and basically when thinking about what V2X is it's all coming down to penetration and it's basically about not getting a lot of vehicles really a lot of vehicles with V2X on the streets and that's why I'm a little bit positive seeing that the volume the guys putting the most of the vehicles on the roads are supporting the SRC because I think that's how we will get to a penetration up there thank you okay thank you Dino you can provide your yeah makes sense also because I was the one asking Theodor why no I mean with Theodor of course we have been meeting the last two years and debating a little bit I come obviously from the other angle first let me introduce myself I'm Dino Flora vice president of Qualcomm Technologies and responsible in Europe for Qualcomm products and technologies so broad set of technology but specifically I've been following a little bit all the evolution of connected cars through my history let's say I've been it was mentioned before but then I'd like to remember that I was chairing 3GPP run the radio group of 3GPP when we introduced D2D communication which is the foundation of CV2X and that prior to Johannes I will the one that put together the 5G association I've been serving for a couple of years as a director general to Andover to Johannes that is doing now fantastic job so what I wanted to say first before going into the details and the team of today is that first of all it's an exciting time for Qualcomm for the telecommunication world because a we are introducing the new generation technology the 5G and we are very excited about that this is once every decade we do that and we are very excited in general about what what is happening and users will start to get consumers will start to have this technology and they will bring it to fruition already this year and of course it's also very important the work we're doing from the telecommunication world together with the automotive partners or now we can help them actually work together to transform the transportation system and make it more intelligent in the future so I see in terms of big picture there is a great alignment with the between telecommunication world and all automakers to work together to again design and develop this smart mobility system of the future that can greatly improve the let's say reduce improve safety as well as improve efficiency in the transportation system so at high level there is a great alignment there is also very exciting for me that we are also introducing with 5G in general but also we are introducing and now I get to the team of today discussion we are also introducing a very very important technology that is the B2X technology I will start the general because it's again it's a new framework which allows the car to communicate with each other and with the environment around them with pedestrians with the road infrastructure with the network so it's an important framework and it's not like a without that things don't work because the way I look at it this is it's an extra sensor which we will add to the car so car will have anyway a bunch of sensors radar, LiDAR whatever so but we are I think a very powerful sensor which is the the B2X framework which will allow to cover some more use cases for safety and efficiency reasons this sensor will allow car to signal to each other intentions so you can see how more powerful can be than passive sensors that are available today and again it will allow for low latency communication and therefore cover some safety use cases which with other sensors they could not be covered but again it's another sensor you have to work like to extend what the others were saying autonomous driving or some level autonomy we'll have to work even without this technology we'll have to work also with other sensors and then when you have this sensor we'll be able to even do much more than that now of course the B2X in general again it's a great idea but of course we are at the stage in which there is a big debate in the industry and a split in the automotive industry between these two technology and it's a bit unfortunate but it's also a healthy discussion on because also previous speakers in the previous panel were saying we need to make sure that we deploy a technology we really think it's forward-looking it's secure it's safer and so it's a very healthy debate that there is a big comparison of course maybe would have been easier without this debate but I think it's also an healthy debate in some ways maybe we'll slow us down a little bit at the beginning because like Taylor was saying adoption is key and the fact that there is a split industry is not helping in terms of adoption of the B2X technology in general but I think we will overcome that one way or the other it's an healthy debate I personally as I said I come from the other camp I'm a strong supporter of the cellular B2X technology which by the way just to just one comment on the other works it can also work without an operator involved through a pure peer-to-peer communication the so-called PCI mode so it does have to necessarily be routed through the network just to be clear wanted to make that precise and again the SSC technology is a great technology from my perspective was standardized a long time ago when there was not a need I think because the need emerged recently so it's a 20 what in a way my colleagues thinks is an asset having been standardized 20 years ago I see it as a legacy so or a burden it just to clarify CB2X is more powerful from my point of view has more performance because more intelligent people developed it it's just that it was developed with state-of-the-art technology when the need arose so state-of-the-art technology in 3GPP 5ga people they got together they developed is the same people same level of intelligence just 20 years later we got the latest and greatest and because of that I believe there's a better performance and more integration with them overall cellular system and so on and so forth which will make them win but it will be an interesting debate I will keep asking Taylor every time I'm meeting why so I plan to do so in the last three years actually today I was told that the cycle symbol smuggler go three and half year so now for the next three and I'll fear I will keep asking him every time I mean so why so okay next up his own good morning my name is Anna I'm a city of autotox I founded autotox more than 10 years ago I think 11 years ago to develop a V2X chipset and we started with DSRC and recently we moved also to CV2X if you would ask me in my worst nightmare 10 years ago if I would have to wait more than 10 years till the mass market of V2X will start I would really be horrified because this is not how it's supposed to be I mean at the early days of the market the technology wasn't ready and it took time to mature it and later on there was always the case of a business case because why would someone pay for technology if it only exists in only few of the cars but I think now what holds it in some geographies not in all and we can discuss about this it's the debate and between technologies and the last thing I can tell talk about this debate and describe it as healthy because there's nothing healthy about this we're talking about human lives and the need existed because if we look at the the number of fatalities in European order it's stagnated it doesn't decrease and despite all of the advanced safety mechanism that are included in the car and me strongly believe and I'm happy to say that everybody here in this panel believes and we share the same goal that direct communication between vehicles has the potential to to save human lives and that's the goal of all of us and the earlier that we'll do it the better now there are few things that are required and this is according to the European Commission Directive and I'm sure that Eddie will talk about this soon first thing is interoperability we must make sure that all vehicles are speaking the same language we must make sure that if Volkswagen car is entering the intersection then a BMW car for example will be able to hear it it cannot happen that a two manufacturer will crash because they don't understand each other the public will not accept that I mean the public doesn't care about which standard is used no it doesn't interest anyone I think besides people on this panel the public want to see a working solution and the second thing is backward compatibility because now Volkswagen is making huge investment they're working very hard to introduce this RC and the customers are entitled that the solution will work for the future so it means that any solution that will be introduced later on will have to work with the devices that will be launched in the Volkswagen solution now what we see in geographies that have key guidance is that the V2X is moving forward we see in China China said CV2X for whatever reason and at most cases the debate is not really this technical because technically when we develop both there's not really a difference the debate is is political is business interest and it's fine but for example in China the government said let's move forward and the market move forward everybody is running like crazy towards CV2X and China will be probably leading the market unless VW is moving forward as they do in Europe I think finally we see very strong move from the commission I think that did very great job with the delegated act I think it's very it's great it's if it's balanced it supports a future proofing and not that in two months more or less it will be approved officially and then also in Europe we will have the regulatory certainty which is required for V2X what we see in US for example it's an example of something that shouldn't happen because now in US does something happen and then there was a planned mandate in the previous administration and then there was a new administration now everything's stuck and it will continue to stuck until there's a clear guidance because nobody I think would dare to launch a technology which doesn't know if it will be used or not used and I don't see a scenario that there are going to be two technologies in a single vehicle the cost burden is high as it is I mean as I said there was always the business case question who will pay for it I mean why should I pay for V2X in my car if only one percent of the other cars have it at the beginning at the early days so it's always a good question so without the guidance this will not happen so I'm really happy now about the focus in US and hoping that it will be concluded good morning my name is Marjorie Dickman and I am pleased to join the ITU UNECE and this esteemed panel this morning as head of global policy for Intel's internet of things and automated driving groups I have a keen interest in the EU's vision for connected and automated mobility and digital policies as the first speaker mentioned we can all agree 1.3 million deaths from vehicles every year 25,000 of which are in Europe is unacceptable so Intel stands with the EC on the objectives of the CITS delegated act but we respectfully differ on the policy and the technology to achieve these objectives which raises the question for all of us on this panel and you here today while ITS G5 may have been the right path when the ITS directive was adopted in 2010 is it the right path a decade later as we sit here today industry feedback as my colleagues at Qualcomm and 5GAA have mentioned indicates a changing tide towards support for cellular Vita X technology or specifically LTE Vita X indeed as they've mentioned LTE Vita X offers superior performance and a clear evolution path to 5G which as the EC has recognized in the context of the digital single market will be one of the most critical building blocks for our digital society in the next decade this changing tide towards cellular Vita X has happened at the same time in the United States in 2014 the U.S. government proposed to mandate a single-purpose technology called DSRC for vehicle-to-vehicle safety communications and at the time the mandate was proposed there was strong momentum in favor of that single-purpose technology mandate for vehicle-to-vehicle safety however just three years later in 2017 stakeholders including 5GAA underscored the rapid pace of technological progress with LTE Vita X and its evolution path to 5G while noting the importance of DSRC investment by government and industry over the prior decade companies urged the U.S. government to change course and take a technology neutral and market-based approach towards Vita V safety notably the U.S. government has not proceeded with its DSRC proposed mandate Intel has taken a similar position on the on the draft delegated act urging the EC to consider technology as it stands today and rather than mandate ITS G5 take a technology neutral and market-based approach in short allow both ITS G5 and cellular Vita X specifically LTE Vita X to deploy day one CITS priority services yet the delegated act creates a de facto mandate in favor of ITS G5 and therefore is not technology neutral globally other regions are taking a forward looking approach as the gentleman mentioned China has adopted LTE Vita X as the future-proof technology on the path to 5G in fact China expects to cover almost all of its big cities and major highways with CV to X by next year and in Asia Pacific we're seeing widespread trials of CV to X in Japan and South Korea as well as the trials we're seeing right here in Europe in Germany France Spain the UK and other nations so what is the key takeaway it is that a decade makes a tremendous difference in technology innovation and with global CV to X commercial launch expected this year Intel respectfully submits that embracing a technology neutral and market-based approach will maximize safe sustainable and connected mobility across Europe and keep Europe a leading player in the ITS sector thank you and I look forward to an exciting dialogue yes well thank you very much first of all for inviting me I think the only government representative on the panel this time sorry yeah exactly so so I think I had a background slide that I proposed just it's a picture to talk a little bit differently about it I've been in the number of these panels before and it's always about you meet the mobility people and it's about the digitalization of cars and the slide that I wanted to present is actually about the mobilization of digital meaning we have a digital society and in what is coming up digitally in platforms in 5G in IoT all of that actually has a mobility component it has an energy component has a building component we haven't been talking today yet about how the car will actually speak to the building that it will be parked in and that is part of what I would like to present coming from DG Connect so my name is Eddie Hartog I'm the head of unit for smart mobility and living in DG Connect it's one of the the services in the European Commission that deals with this issue together with the college from the mobility side and from the vehicle side from the market so that is really what I would like to present first and if you then look at how this has historically evolved we started with automation and actually my predecessors in DG Connect was then called very differently 13 and so some people will notice started all of this because it was all called ICT for transport and ICT for energy this was before the internet even existed and at a certain point we got into conversations as well about with the telecom sector well what are we going to do about road safety and a lot of them said like well yeah road safety that's really my concern you know we do vehicles so actually that is why we started this whole Wi-Fi thing and Ross said it because everyone came to the conclusion that's where we will start Margie is right in saying that it has evolved and not only has it evolved that connectivity plays a much bigger role in this debate than it did 10 years ago but also we've introduced a word of cooperation and cooperation comes before the interoperability these interoperabilities one way of of cooperating and that's what we introduced also in in the Commission say like well precisely what on said it you know there's no point having all these things on the road and they do wonderful things but they just can't work together you know so that's not gonna work so that is why we have introduced that as well now the question then is what's what is the choice if you look at the the text of the program it looks like we're going to do a technology choice let me tweak that a little bit because for us as as as governments and I think it's overall as government it's not about a beauty contest so this one is better than the other and we're going to choose I mean that's what I often hear in these panels which is fine I look at it thank you very much and but that's not the choice that we really have the choice that we really have to make is about how can we deploy it now because as I'm talking the five minutes that I have if I like listen to Jean Tot 10 people get killed on the road yeah so that is something that we need to address urgently and you need to address that with the technology that exists as quickly as possible and that is where the road authorities and then the national governments will have to make a choice what am I going to invest in yeah it's the investment decision at the same time the choice is then we have we need to invest now but we also need to make sure that our investment now will still benefit us in 30 years time and that is really the challenge it's not about beauty concerts it's about how can you mix that now in the European Union we we will do that through this uh a delegated act I think some of you have seen the first draft some of you have written very interesting comments on this and we're now digesting all of this and very soon we will come up with precisely that sort of balance between investing now and making sure that it's future proof now I think part of the solution in that corporation is going to be precisely what was said on interoperability a lot of discussions on interoperability are going on and for me the solution needs to be found by the people here not by us not by the government it's a private sector problem private sector generated problem that you need a private sector solution and that is why we have emphasized very much to work in in Etsy and and 3GPP and all the the bodies that work with these standards to actually solve this and then to add and to solve this quickly because you know these debates are going on and on about and that is really the message that I've given when I went to the Etsy board um uh last summer I said you know this is an issue it's becoming a political issue and it's actually you're generating this political issue so it's about time that you solve it and what you see then by governments making choices whether that's in China one choice in the US another church better in the US I spoke to well I won't say to who but sort of counterparts that I have in the US and I said well you deal with this interoperability they said well first of all we actually think if we were to invest now we should say the DSRC because that exists but on the other hand we would also tell our public procurement people don't be stupid don't buy things or roadside units that are locked into technology for the next 30 years so make sure that you can actually plug something out and plug something else in that work you see that is really the the solution that is their way of looking at the interoperability we've said you need to do that through the standard the standard setting bodies and there we would want everyone to cooperate I mean you mentioned backward compatibility people say forward compatibility the bottom line is we're not going to lock ourselves into one technology and all players all players need to be bold so it's not like oh yeah we've now chosen this and we can sit back and the others the newcomers need to solve our problem we really insist that all players will do this now a last comment is going back to this telecommunication automotive within the commission I mean it's not me it's my my political boss with that all these conversations the dirt thing was one of them and they spoke to the automotive sector and they and then an hour later they received telecom sector and at some the moment he asked have you ever spoken together but not really you know you know so we're doing our own thing and that is what's precisely part of the problem I must say I'm impressed in what's happened in industry and I pride myself particularly in European industry in the synergies that have been created over the last three years 5G AA is one of them but we also have the European automotive telecom association that actually said let's do a couple of things together and if I think it's really there that the solution needs to be found we all know that there's a problem we all know that the old days of let's hope that one standard wins over the other you know the old television standards and the video standards I mean those days are gone in standard setting you really need to make sure it is interoperable and really the pressure now is on at the actual meeting this week again I understand so to to solve this this problem but it requires the contribution from all partners on their panels and the colleagues that go to these bodies so that is really my appeal for for this moment. Okay thanks Eddie I just want to say I appreciate you coming and that the European Commission and this going back to many of your almost ancestors, Fotos Kermitzos and getting the ITS World Congress going in Paris originally Andre Vitz, Johanny Jasko and it's been tremendous contribution to this so we appreciate it so let me go on and let Andre have his say. Hi thanks Vitz. So I'm Andre Cadotte, I'm the head of products at Venium. And Venium is a tech startup which is helping L2EMs move large amounts of data from the vehicle to the cloud and back and why is this important? It's important because as vehicles become more and more connected there's more data that can be moved between the vehicle and the cloud and which can enable new use cases and revenue streams for auto EMS so for instance by having more data from all the vehicle sensors in the cloud auto EMS are able to reduce their warranty costs and avoid expensive recalls for instance. On the other hand we know that as the vehicle becomes more and more a bunch of software lines rather than a physical hardware thing we need to deploy auto EMS, we need to deploy software updates for over the years, software updates more often and this is a lot of data that they need to move between the vehicle and the cloud but we also know that not all this data is real-time critical so a software update if it's not safety critical might wait for a week or data that comes from vehicle sensors might wait for 48 hours it doesn't need to go immediately to the cloud it doesn't even need to be transferred through the expensive cellular network which is available at most of the times or if not all the time. So Venium is helping OEMs prioritize this data and enabling them to use different technologies at different points in time depending on where the vehicle is, what's its state, whether it's moving or stopped and accessing technologies like Wi-Fi, like cellular, like V2X technologies I'm not going to say DSR, CRC, V2X when they're both then any other technology that comes in the future but it's really about deciding when to send which data to the cloud or to the vehicle. We do this by through a software platform which has two components one component that sits in the cloud and that's responsible for orchestrating the whole network and one component that sits in the vehicle software so in the connectivity control unit or telecommunications control unit. The way it works is DOEM sets the policies for data upload or download from the vehicle in the cloud these are translated into local rules in the vehicle and then the vehicle operates independently I'm not going to say autonomously because that's when we're talking about vehicles that might be a different thing so right now you're probably thinking so why are you in this in this panel and why is this relevant for this panel and that has to do with yet another valid proposition of Venium which is that once vehicles get data from the cloud for instance a software update they can share it with each other as long as it's common information they can also upload information through other vehicles to the cloud and this is what we call peer-to-peer content distribution so using peer-to-peer communications and for that we need vehicle-to-vehicle communications be them DSRC, CV2X or any upcoming technology so really looking forward to the panel there's one challenge I would like to leave to the panel and to the audience which is it's time for us to think about vehicle-to-vehicle technologies beyond safety so safety is super important yes that's true but there's applications beyond safety that we can enable nowadays thanks okay Michael I love you for the last since Ericsson has been a leader in pushing cellular technology and automotive in Europe so you could take the last word yeah glad to be on the panel my name is Michael Meyer I'm working at Ericsson Research the fact of this also means that we typically take a little bit of a longer-term perspective and look also a little bit into the future and I'm working with two aspects that are related here on the one hand side in my organization we are responsible for the standardization in 3GPP of technology so 5G technology LTE technology and as part of that also V2X and the second part is that I'm heavily involved in publicly funded projects particularly in the automotive domain where we work together with the OEMs the tier ones like Volkswagen like BMW like PSA Volvo Bosch and so on in order to come to a view how the future for V2X communication and connected mobility can look like yeah actually quite difficult I think most of the thoughts that I would have had in mind prior to this discussion have been raised but maybe I can use that opportunity to reflect already a little bit upon what I've heard here so first of all I think it's important to understand that 5G is here like Dino has it on his T-shirt has been standardized or the first version of the standard has been finalized next year we have now made also some progress when it comes to V2X enhancement just last week the study item in 3GPP was finalized where the main conclusion was that both the NR side link and the LTE side link are able to support the automotive use cases we foresee that only for the for the UU first for the interface between the base station and the vehicle only if at all only marginal extensions are needed to order the to the already existing 5G standard in order to fulfill the requirements of the automotive communication for the NR side link the work still needs to happen so we will standardize an NR side link until the end of the year and then also that kind of functionality will be available so that is one part then I would also like to talk about our collaboration projects that we run for example on on EU level there are projects like 5G car like 5G Croco which are really key for us in order to derive a mutual understanding between the OEMs between the automotive industry and the telco industry I think these activities are accompanying the activities that go on in 5GAA because we are working on the research side our insights are fed into bodies like 5GAA but of course also 5G also 3GPP in order to drive the technology in the right direction and I must say what what I've seen so far is I think I think we've achieved this I think we have technology at hand that is able to fulfill to fulfill all the requirements that we've seen so far and this goes beyond the safety use cases you've mentioned that other use cases will become more and more important and in particular some of those require clearly a network interface for example if you think about downloading highly accurate accurate maps or if you think about remote driving I think remote driving is one one really critical use case in order to come to the vision of autonomous driving because ultimately cars will end up in situations where they are not able to maneuver themselves and then some remote interaction is required and then only a v2v component doesn't bring us much further yeah then considering what I've heard so far here in the panel I reacted on a few things so I think Theodor said that he believes that 11p is a superior technology I I don't I don't believe in that that's one part the other part I'm concerned about is the delegated act one speaker here said that he is happy with the current formulations of the delegated act we would actually prefer a more balanced more technology neutral version of the delegated act and then as as also was mentioned before we would like to see that the market finally decides and now I'm looking forward to an interesting discussion okay thank you all right so we've gone through what we did pretty good on 55 minutes instead of 40 minutes so not bad so questions what would you like to hear out here somewhere there should be microphones so who wants to start off from the audience this is question for Theodor identify yourself Mike Senna I'll be moderating the next session question for Theodor yes you listed all of the advantages of wi-fi it's defy 802 11p wave are there any disadvantages yes okay could you enumerate them please of course there are not so many at least from my perspective I think there are some other guys in the panel which can tell a little more of the disadvantages I think it's important to keep in mind why the technology what was developed for and how it fits with the need and basically yes I think one of the disadvantages when we're looking at it is yes it's still let's say based on old technology that might be one of the of the disadvantages which are going to be addressed with the new working groups inside of IEEE so I think it's important to know what are the flaws or what's missing in order to correct it and basically that's one of them just to make sure it's based on an old technology but it's still matching all the requirements for what it was designed to that's why we still think it's the right choice to do it and I think one let's say personal disadvantage what my wish would have been in the last year so when trying to bring it into the vehicles is you really need to have to be used not just for safety but also use it for other use cases which are basically improving your business case because with safety it's very hard to make a business case especially when you are based on the penetration and I think this issue currently it's not addressed on the technology level because you still have 11p but this this missing point was addressed by the suppliers of the chipsets but basically providing dual usage chipsets which can we also for example use for doing standard Wi-Fi AC and basically when looking at the use cases we heard from the colleagues from Benium it's basically also what we do we see a lot of data coming there and this kind of data you don't really need to put it on the cellular network because it's not something you need now you'll really need to do some kind of offloading what we call it and this offloading you can only do it with another technology and 11p it's not the technology to do it don't have the data rates but the hardware behind it what provides you the 11p can be used for this offloading you can really download a lot of data when your vehicle is in your garage at home or at the loading charging at the charging station and basically you don't need to do any DSRC because you're not on the road you don't need to say the others here I am here I am as Russel already said but you can really do it in Wi-Fi mode so this is one of the disadvantages it's too much focused on the safety and for what's coming up afterwards automated driving and it's not helping the business case but the chipsets recognize that and let's say the problem is addressed in a parallel path these are the true disadvantages which I think delayed with some years an introduction of one or another okay Theodore let me put you on the spot and one thing well I hear I'm the guy on the spot anyway I hear from some of the car companies concern about cybersecurity and cybersecurity is the next and at least some car company people and I'm sure my 5GAA colleagues here will certainly jump in but say that they don't see how we can really do good cybersecurity for 802.11p without having cellular to be able to currently at all times be able to get security certificates to the vehicle if you're actually going to get to direct communications what what's your position on that I fully agree with you we need an additional communication let's say you could say if you really don't want to use cellular because you don't like it and trust me I like it I'm active in 5GAA I'm a big supporter of 5G that's why we discuss a lot about it so the alternative is I don't know you get an USB stick and you put every week certificates that's not something anybody would actually do in the vehicle and basically we are going to use also the cellular network from getting them but it's still for us when looking from the DSRC or 11p part it's another it's a separate channel it's an offload channel we're playing on using and let me tell you some of the biggest problem we currently have and having this deployment and putting it on the road it's not the cybersecurity because I think the mechanisms are so safe and the pseudonym certificates and everything behind it the infrastructure needed it's so complex and has been also by the commission discussed in the past year with the certificate policy and and and I'm pretty sure that it's going to work the biggest challenges we have now it are based on the how it's called in English is the GDRP it's basically we have this very interesting question if the driver really doesn't want to go online because you still have a lot of drivers who say I don't want my car to be connected I want to keep it offline I still want to have E-Call I still want to hit safety I still want to have DSRC and have active safety but I don't want to go online and that makes it for us we have a lot of legal questions to answer how do you provide the service to a customer like the service giving him certificates for DSRC when he doesn't want to go online at all and that's why we're discussing I'm doing a lot of discussion with lawyers for example and it's not so much with the technical guys I think technically we can manage to do anything but getting the right legal framework and I think also in the Delegated Act there are several requirements that you have to support the certificate revocation lists every week and when looking what are the possibilities basically you can tell every week the customer you have to go online you have to go online otherwise your V2X is not functioning what you will do you deactivate it and then we don't have any safety regardless of which technology is there we don't care if it's he doesn't understand it's one technology or another and that's the main challenge here how do you address this kind of worries of the customer because they say I don't want to be tracked I want to have safety I understand how V2V it's working also with the PC5 with the mode 4 where the network operator I have a lot of customers saying we don't want to be tracked I want to have safety I understand it's locally but I don't want to have any communication with the network as a generic term it's something we need so I hear you I have the microphone could I just come in on the same point of security no it's here with us on the same point of security because I think in the Delegated Act we try to address some of these things in their balance now first of all I'm not a technician so I'm a little bit on the dodgy ground here but I understand when we speak V2V and peer to peer that's not what this G5 actually is because it's broadcasting it's saying I'm here and hope that someone picks it up and that requires a different type of cyber security than you would have in a peer to peer and I think that is what we've tried to address we have the colleagues from JRC into a certificate certificate system I mean so I just wanted to mention that that we try to do the same thing we talk about mandating as a European Union we've actually decided not to mandate you know we mentioned two other countries that have either thoughts about mandating and or our mandating is specifically we've decided not to do that we've also decided not that it's not obligatory so you that's why the corporation comes in you make a choice to cooperate or not if you don't cooperate then don't expect the benefits if you believe so I think it's an important point to make I will be curious over time if but I will let the other questions come in to also see how the various colleagues have reacted to the various initiatives in other countries for example in China I'm just curious to see what Volkswagen is going to do in China because I assume they will have to deploy also connected automated cars yeah so but it's different technology in the US again it's different and in other countries but I would be interested it's not to focus only on the EU because after all we are in a global context thank you Darren can identify himself he's from the UK government head of the cyber security UN cyber security effort um so hopefully hi there's good introductions and good um discussion so far um I think on DSRC and telecom a lot of work's been done securing the messages um we've recently done some work and I think others have that shows the onboard units actually themselves are not that secure um they can be hacked you can get read control you can put in whatever data you like and generate messages whenever you like on the systems we've tested um so the quality of the data is open to abuse how would you see your implementations dealing with such abuse which will happen in the real world when the general public get their hands on your technology so not the security of the messages which has been looked at the security of units generating the messages so if you look at the car to car consortium on the security there are two aspects the first one is the security of the HSM which is the vault that stores the private keys and this is should have very high certification and and the second security scope is the ECU it's not ECU itself it's the V2X gateway and and that's another scope which has EEL2 it's a lower level of security but still it's now not included in the delegated act but I expect that OEMs will demand either self-certification according to the common criteria guidelines or an official common criteria certification for the V2X gateway and part of the boundaries of the V2X is also the integrity of data so each unit has to ensure the integrity of the interfaces so you will not be able to hack those interfaces and plus to do some plausibility checks and plausibility checks is required for the data that you transmit and also for the data that you receive and on top of that you apply misbehaviour detection for the scenario that someone I think for example GNSS can be easily act but then you need to do some misbehaviour detection to detect that some hacking attempt to place and this is why you have the CRL for example in U.S. then you report it to a centralized server and then it decides according to majority if this is a comment but it's really too complex for this family actually not on this question because it was a very nice question but I cannot answer it actually maybe a car manufacturer should answer because we don't we don't I mean we are not really experts on the security of the generator of messages like the gentleman said we look at more security of messages so it's not my domain of expertise I wanted to comment on the question before but I will derail the discussion so maybe if the other wants to answer the specific questions maybe a quick question that possible ethics scenario it's something we are we've been looking at from several perspectives it's not just let's say the v2x gateway which might be attacked this way it's a lot of other communication unit as you already said we I think we've seen a lot of presses about BMWs being hacked or Tesla or I don't know and basically this problem of how do you make sure that the data you get in one or another issue regardless what scope you can also have for radar or something this is something our security guys are working and they have very good mechanisms to secure what the data in transit from one issue to another issue and basically to make sure that the data is authentic and both for the let's say Ethernet based communication also for the can base communication and it's usually working on having the ECUs reciprocally authenticating themselves and basically only data from ECUs you already know and you already trust and which are signed with these certificates are going to be validated by the other ECU before you put it in any v2x message or telematic message or whatever I think we will discuss this on the next panel but you know security is an issue where you can of course we have to spend a lot of efforts within the system and regardless of the technology you know that is it has nothing to do whether we are talking about pc5 or dsrc as a transportation channel you have to spend a lot of effort into the into the system as such into the control unit but a secure system only works and that is by the way the reason why we are talking about cyber security if this if the system is connected because you know you can design the best secure system you can hack it if it's not connected you cannot repair it very easily to say so the question is how often do I get connection to that system is it once a week is it once a month or is it never because the customer decides that I would I don't want to be online you know and if you are if you don't have an online system then then it can be not secured in that way on an operational basis so so we need the network anyhow whether it is a mobile network or whether it's a usb let's say a plugged in network or something like that it is not convenient for the customer so inside the 5ga we spend a lot of effort during the past two years with a specific task force which explores how to build up how to set up a secure system not only based on technology but also based on legal processes on operational processes at the end it has to be operational with millions of cars with millions of customers with millions of roadside units to create at the end something which was written on on the on the slide adi has shown and that is trust if we don't trust the other communication partner we cannot use the information as Dino has said as an additional sensor I can only use an additional sensor if I trust the additional sensor or on the other word on the other hand if there is mistrust between the sensors then I will not use the information yeah okay Roger thank you Russ Roger Lonto director automotive connected mobility in the global automotive practice at strategy analytics I I think most people that are intensely involved in this debate and discussion are aware of a second generation and DSRC proposition but I don't always see it consistently being discussed or what the implications of such a potentially interoperable or not interoperable second generation is on this conversation because the the issue is you know future proofing whatever technology we choose so I'm curious if anybody on the panels is prepared or equipped to to address this topic maybe I can give a couple of of answers yes we are very much aware and we are working together with Toyota for example in the U.S. for inside the I think it's called the BD group now the IEEE and basically what we've also done it's through our activities inside the 3GPP I think it was last year when it was the ask we were asked as automotive to provide requirements for the 5G new radio because that's something we also want to use at some point in time at I don't know 2024 2025 use and include it inside our vehicles the 5G new radio and one of our inputs to the 3GPP was let's not have the whole discussion we have now with the LTV and DSRC that basically they ignore each other due to different reasons they don't everybody expects that I only have the spectrum for this one technology and we gave the requirement please consider also non-3GPP technologies inside the frequency bands so basically if there are some guys like us or like Toyota or somebody else who wants to include Wi-Fi based technologies in some future spectrum for ITS that the 3GPP technologies are aware they are able to detect this technology and make countermeasure also the other way around we provided to the IEEE the requirement please consider that in the same spectrum might have non-IEEE technologies like 3GPP ones and the IEEE group took this requirement in the 3GPP we were kind of a set thanks for the input but we don't consider non-3GPP technologies it was for me it was a deja vu for the input I gave couple of years ago when the release 14 was discussed for Cellular V2X or for LTV when also I think it's the way that 3GPP mostly works all the mechanisms for non-3GPP technologies are kind of a not in scope of 3GPP and that's where we are coming today on this discussing about spectrum splits or using totally different spectrum for technologies doing exactly the same sorry so just to answer Roger we're taking active part in the 11 BD I mean I'm going to be next week in Vancouver in the plenary meeting the idea is that it shows the same channel so you can actually activate it to 11 BD next to 11 P and when 11 B unit detects the presence of 11 P unit it acts as 11 P unit so that can have a gradual introduction of technology with full coexistence and full interoperability so not have this discussion it's actually a clear generation that you have the ability to go directly from one generation to another but the assumption that we have in the market and as Theo said all the use cases can be supported with 11 P 11 BD just gives you more bandwidth and higher performance but you can do still do the same with 11 P I accumulated a few comments but maybe so I start from the final one yes the Cellular V2X gives you better performance I would say I would claim twice the range so and I understand we went in this discussion with Theo in the past Theo said well most of the things I need to do is in the short proximity so I don't mind but again from our point of view double in the range opens up more safety use cases and more situations so it's important that it's also part of the future proving and having the latest technology so it cannot be discounted like that that's okay we cover the basics we are done we rush with the this old technology so for our prospect is we should not overlook these kind of things like in passing say okay yeah that's my we just cover the basics so we go ahead now the second comment I wanted to make based on the discussion we were having before which is important from an ecosystem point of view which we should not forget I'm glad that Theo consider that for security for many other things anyway the cellular connectivity will be in the car so establish that now I'll claim that the civilization technology has much better integration with the cellular connectivity meaning and I'm not discussing prototypes things I've seen the market but I can tell you as a welcome there is a clear path to have a single chip set doing both connectivity cellular connect with the cellular network connectivity car to car single solution so if you have to have the cellular connectivity anyway which is becoming pervasive in the cars anyway my point is from an ecosystem point of view it's obvious an advantage to have a single solution like an integrated approach future looking forward looking evolving the 25 g because also from an ecosystem point of view is a single integrated solution and again that's the path we are trying to go with Qualcomm because of course the other part is yet another technology in parallel to some other things so that's I wanted to point out this sorry I would I would like to add one point which is which is very important when it comes to ecosystem of course we are sitting together at the future networked car symposium but if it comes to the fatalities on the road more than 30 40 50 percent of the fatalities are not sitting in the car so these are the pedestrians these are the cyclists these are the ones who are sitting on a motorcycle these are the so-called vulnerable road users from the car manufacturers perspective and the question is how can we include these citizens these participants on the on the road also into a safety related system and that is from an ecosystem perspective a very important topic and when it comes to the question what he has mentioned that the cellular connectivity is already there every customer every participant on the road more or less has some sort of cellular connectivity in his pocket on his bike yeah under his shoes or whatever then these kind of these kind of components we have to we have to elaborate and we are doing that intensively in the 5ga how to include these participants these vulnerable road users also into a safety related system and again the cv2x with a clear evolution pass to 5g plays a very important role when it comes to the question how can we include these these traffic participants into the into the general system and this kind of answer or this kind of question we have also to raise when it comes to safety when it comes to traffic efficiency but especially when it comes to safety quick point so I refer to your point and just a couple other things I've heard here I think one of the things we need to think about as we think about the future it's it's about the practicality of not just building a network but maintaining a network and one of if you have a single purpose network for example for its g5 as the ec's cits impact assessment stated there's going to be a large investment as well as operational costs not only to build that network but then you have to maintain that network and who bears that operation that cost both initially and going forward you can have the best network initially but if the industry is not going to continue to support that and there are not other revenue models to support a network it's very hard to project that that network will be maintained in any way that will be usable in the future of the network car and I'd say just also point out that this is one of the reasons that the U.S. hasn't gone forward with its DSRC mandate the Department of Transportation acknowledged that it will cost 108 billion USD to deploy a DSRC network across the entire country of America and it would take until 2060 to have a hundred percent penetration so if you think about that if we're waiting until 2060 for this technology to be able to have any effective penetration and be therefore be effective in preventing accidents we're not at 5G we're not at 6G we might even be at 7G so it's just I think that's something the practicality of all of this as we think about the future-proofing technology is something incredibly important to think about and just another last point to that just consider that 5G networks are expected to cover three quarters of Europe by 2025 and why is that it's because the private sector is investing a huge amount of money in these 5G networks and the private sector will continue to maintain those networks for the future as they evolve to 6G, 7G, whatever 8H, whatever it may be and I think these practical points are something really important both from a private sector investment but if I'm sitting in the policy maker seat as well to know that going forward that my country my region will be able to lead in the ITS sector be able to save the most lives protect its citizens and also increase efficiency and mobility using these technologies yeah Marjorie let me add one more US piece since we have a limited Americans here as you know and you participated in the USDOT recently put out a request for comments on this one of the other things which you didn't mention is that in the US we have a thing called first net a congressionally determined operation for police fire and ambulance that has by FCC mandate using cellular so all police fire and ambulance in the US will have to use cellular and all traffic signals in the US for signal phase and timing will have to use the cellular V2X technology to transmit what their signal is for the police cars so part of the reason that the USDOT is going back and looking at this is do they really want to have passenger cars with a different technology than the public safety cars so that's not a European problem because you haven't done anything similar here in Europe but it is a strong US problem so now sorry to interrupt but that I wanted to come so just to reflect for a few comments that we said you first about a vulnerable users as I see it I don't see any difference or any relation on the technology as a matter of fact a smartphone which is this or see based was already demonstrated five years ago by Qualcomm and probably they know that because every smartphone has a Wi-Fi so that technology exists in today's smartphone you don't need to develop anything new so it don't see this as any reason to determine one technology or another now another thing regarding infrastructure so what is this as the infrastructure so the DC doesn't require any infrastructure to operate the only infrastructure is safety services so a safety service for example is a smart intersection that you have an intersection and they have camera and the camera detects pedestrian and detect other vehicles that don't have communication and that kind of infrastructure actually exists in Japan so in Japan there are something like 20 or 30 intersections that includes cameras and the cameras transmits via DCRC to the vehicle about alerts and the statistics is amazing that the statistics show that there's 40 decrease in accident probability for vehicles with V2V in those intersections so that's the nature of infrastructure I think that we all would like to see those kind of smart intersections all around the world so I'd like to ask one question to you guys the discussion about the the future I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to drop the microphone and as far as I'm concerned when we started this 20 years ago the main purpose was peer-to-peer vehicle-to-vehicle communications not a here I am message when in both 802 11p and in cellular v2x will the technology be ready to have true peer-to-peer sessions set up and handled and related to that in the standards efforts how many experts etc are working in the standards effort in the 3GPP I guess it's really 16 next generation in the 802 11p are going to I think it's 802 11b or what have you you're talking about so can you guys give me reasonable estimates of dates of when these will be ready and how many experts are working on each of these maybe for the 5GA to maybe Dino you can say something for the 3GPP and how many people are working on the on the early 16 standardization activities these let's say real peer-to-peer not only here I am and broadcasting so these real peer-to-peer communication is very important so-called work item within the 5GA so around I would say 25 companies are working on that mainly based from the car manufacturers and from the from the tech companies like Qualcomm Inter Samsung are providing the technology as but but more importantly providing the use cases and the protocols and the standards which are needed for not only understanding each other but for negotiating each other you know that's that's more importantly it's some sort of negotiation if you are talking about traffic it's about cooperation and cooperation is always some something which ends let's say at the at the short very simple contract that means two meter to the left and the other three meter to the right and then we can avoid the collision and that is something I would say 20 30 companies are working intensively inside the 5GA around these kind of use cases and we will see them in the market at the latest I would say in 2025 2026 maybe I'll comment on 3gbp especially from my past so 3gbp is a huge it's a humongous human endeavor so we're talking about people are not only working on the next generation v2x system which will start to have the capability Rasa was talking about you're working on various things but the group is huge and we're talking about I don't know so if I had to give you a number plus 2000 plus people working on next generation standards no no no yeah not all no no but these no you have to understand the 3gbp process as I said they are working on many things but it's not like okay we are talking about the next generation vsfc and suddenly 1,900 people exit the room and remains just a couple of people so it's an humongous endeavor because there are around one the group doing the physical layer there are 500 people and of course when we're discussing the five aspect the physical layer aspect of v2x maybe 20 people will be more active but still there are five people 500 people in the room from a variety of company and they will be entitled to talk sometimes they will talk I've been chairing 3gbp meeting for a long time it's a very tough thing by the way it's a tough thing but it's a very successful endeavor from an ecosystem point of view and that goes back to the question of the ecosystem the automotive industry has also embraced the 3gbp technology in general because again it's making use of the mobile ecosystem reuse it and leverage it in the car thing but then we go back to Ioannis argument the ecosystem point of view it's very important even when we are talking about pedestrian and I have to beg to this I beg to disagree with my colleagues from Volkswagen and Autotox you cannot simply say yeah it's the same thing you just put this in the smartphone and my company showcased it for four years ago there's nothing compared to it so it's obvious that the chances that cv2x will be much more integrated in the same chipset that it does cellular fault as way higher you cannot make it sound like okay easy it's a very naive thing to think that you 100 million cars you are going to impose a technology to cellular smartphones which is one billion it's one order of magnitude bigger ecosystem guys so it's just not the way the world works in the mobile ecosystem theater you want to get one no you mean okay theater I know you can say the same thing about 802 11 the 802 11 meetings are thousands of people I wouldn't have you so my question again goes for the specific part you're working on Dino came up with 20 experts maybe that's in the right number what's what's in your side because I know John Kenny and I know you now who else is working on it let me give you a couple of you had to ask two questions before first about the number of people and about if we're going to move beyond this here I am kind of stuff so the first answer is at least the guys I'm paying or on my payroll and which I send them through to 5gaa and to 3gbp and I'm also working a lot of release 16 and focusing only on the new radio I have three guys doing this I think Johannes know them from 5gaa meetings and probably Dino maybe from some run or as a two meetings and I also have two other guys working on this radio stuff it's it's not just doing the standardization but it's also doing the integration in the vehicle and also I have like two other guys doing the what I'm coming to the second point of your question on what's coming afterwards on doing beyond here I am messages and I say I'm aware of our seven people for Volkswagen which are working and bringing this to the future to the second question what do we do after here I am I'm actually a pretty good fan of the here I am but I want to emphasize and expand it a little bit because we are starting with here I am message but what we are seeing what we are doing at Etsy and working group one we are cooperation for us it's data sharing and we start by seeing saying here I am and driving that fast in that direction and so on and the next level is the vehicles we say this is what I'm seeing I have this sensor and I'm seeing objects there I'm saying pedestrians and seeing something it might not be interesting for me as a car as an ego vehicle to know the pedestrians on my right but it might be very interesting for the other cars around me to know where there are pedestrians and basically when you start putting automation through this you have vehicles saying I'm calculating a trajectory for me because I know I'm going to navigate that way through the intersection it's not the driver doing this but it's basically the automated in the algorithm the vehicle and this information will also be shared with the other vehicles so the other vehicles know am I going in the intersection to go straight through make a right turn or make a left turn and this basically helps all the other vehicles understanding this information refine their decision algorithms because they know a lot more about what's happening outside they also can see into the future of me automatic driving it's now looking I'm seeing this object and I'm reacting to it but if this object can tell me what they are going to do in the five seconds I can do my five second plan according to this and I still have a and you see all of these points you don't need this contract because getting a contract it's an you have to do some negotiation for getting a contract and when you are driving 100 miles towards each other you don't really have so much time to make a contact you really need some very straightforward rules like right for link right before left or round robin principle something like this and that's why at least in my understanding in my philosophy which I'm pushing forward with the guys working here and this is expanding this here I am to here I am this is here at what I'm seeing and here are my plans for the future okay but and I think at CTC ITS is doing a lot of great work in this but the extension of the applications of here I am is not related to the bearer protocol and will apply whether it's using yes cv2x or yes I see my question is really go back on the bearer protocol the big new thing on the bearer protocol being worked on in the IEEE what's happening for moving the 802.11p to the next generation that will have at the bearer protocol peer-to-peer communications yes so I just to understand two aspects so in IEEE in the bd group there's about 60 people that are working but I would like to address another aspect which is the spectrum and for all those great things to happen there is a need for more spectrum so today we use only 10 manguards so this is why we need this help to assure us and help to give us more spectrum for those use cases and I think one of the problems in spectrum split and this discussion that you might waste spectrum in an inefficient way because spectrum is a very scarce resource and it should be treated with a lot of respect so you cannot repeat so actually we need to assure enough spectrum both in US in the FCC discussion now about Wi-Fi sharing and that has to be concluded by FCC to understand how much spectrum is really available for ITS and then in Europe we need to assure a lot of spectrum yeah okay we're just about out of time so please go ahead yeah sure so I'm not going to speak for regulators of standard or standard bodies but just to tell you that Venom has been thinking of V2X technologies beyond safety for the past seven years and in fact we have commercial networks in operation doing peer-to-peer communication and not just here I am actually transferring data between vehicles disseminating software updates between vehicles and even offering Wi-Fi access inside public transportation using a combination of V2X technologies cellular and Wi-Fi so the technology is there it's possible to do it it's just we need to move faster on the the standardization of these technologies I guess okay Eddie you want to have a last word nope okay Michael you've been pretty quiet down there at the end yeah maybe I maybe I can also comment on the on the 3GPP activities so it has been why it will be decided at the next plenary that actually a unicast and the groupcast component will be standardized as part of the of the PC5 in order to enable this peer-to-peer communication when it comes to dealers estimates of the people that are active it's it's hard to provide any numbers I I would say that 20 is probably underestimated if I just look at the resource that we spent and I would expect that that other companies yeah yeah exactly exactly so I I agree I agree with you so 20 is is is highly underestimated since you asked was I think all of these damage and I got a little bit lost I have to say but all of these demonstrates that all of these guys need to work together to solve all of these things you shouldn't have six or seven four to do that in you need to concentrate that so that's why I focus on ads but I typically you know some of them need to work on the spectrum as you said it's a scarce resource so the spectrum that you have you'll have to deal with yeah Eddie I can say that the US finally US DOT at the top level does recognize that the industry has to work together and there are very strong efforts including Toyota and GM who are having discussions at the executive level not the technical level to see if they can get a resolution so we'll we'll wait and see over the next few months what will happen so I think we really hit the end of the time we got a coffee break we can continue discussions on the coffee break and I really appreciate everybody's efforts on this so 30 minutes please be back at 1140 sharp we will then continue with a presentation on ITU activities and thanks to Degra Robocare and welcome for providing this coffee break