 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Noor. Today, we're talking about marketing in eSports. With me is marketing expert, Alex Hutchie. Welcome, Alex. Hi. Thanks for having me. All right. Well, great to have you. And what made you interested in eSports? So I got started with eSports actually just by watching Twitch. I thought the network was great when I first got started and watched a lot of my favorite games before I started to play. Okay. So you're actually a big fan? Yes. What are your favorite games? So I'm a huge PC gamer. I started off by playing Unreal Tournament, Total Annihilation. And now I love playing a lot of Rocket League is probably one of my favorite games. And then I also love mobile games, such as Clash Royale made by Supercell in a game studio. Okay. So what made you get interested in marketing? So my marketing background spans from fashion when I was attending college and then also when I finished college, I had an internship at a trend predicting agency. So that really got me started with learning how to research, looking further into subcultures and youth culture. And when gaming finally started to form a career path of its own, I quickly saw that as an option to take a lot of my fashion and direct to consumer marketing onto eSports, which is very similar as far as like working with young people, getting products into influencers hands and also just finding the latest trends in eSports. Okay. Why should a company consider entering into this space? So I think with eSports, you have a lot more genuine influencer marketing with products. So one thing that I see very successful happening on TikTok is that you have these very organic reviews on products, experiences, and I think that's something that brands couldn't even imitate from doing a paid commercial or creating something that is a bit more high production. I think now really the future of creating content is definitely just being made right on your phone. Okay. So that brings me brings us to the issue of authenticity. Is authenticity important when you're looking at branding in eSports? I think so. I think that gamers are very particular as far as how they see products being presented to them. There's a lot of product that is sold at a very high price point. But then there's also a lot of great product that's available for gamers when they're just getting started or even if they have an interest in the technology side, which is building PCs, putting together their streaming setup. I think that having a very authentic way of presenting your products to people is important because you really want to build communities and fans that are going to stick with you as your product grows and really give you the honest feedback that's going to help you stay in the industry. Okay. What is the target market in eSports? So the target market for eSports can actually start as young as middle school because that's actually when a lot of gamers may start to watch and stream a lot of games. For when you get into high school, you have a bit more spending power because of course in high school you can get a job, buy any of the things that they want. And they're also competing for if they're into sports, sports scholarships and sports branding and wanting to get more into buying things. So the thing with eSports and the thing with sports is that you still have players that are being introduced to brands very young so that it gets instilled in them that they want to participate in the France and buy them as soon as they can. I mean, I can remember my first experience playing a racing game and I mean to this day like BMW was my first car because of that experience and it's like you start with those brands that brand exposures are young so that when you can become of age those are the brands that you want to grow up and drive and customize and have that be a part of how you identify and join a community. Sure. And so how, what is the range of age for eSports in terms of like how high would it go up and what would be the gender allocation? Great question. I think that when it comes to the age you have your middle schoolers that are looking to start gaming or they're looking for more of like a community and building. Just working with other kids I think is really important. So if some kids gravitate more to field sports that's a good way for them to socialize but then you also have a group of kids that really enjoy just being on the computer. And I think still having that community aspect is very important even if you're playing a solo game and then you move into high school to college and the college level is something that I think you see a lot more competition, you see a lot more earnings that can be made and then I think also to another age group to think about is just the casual gamers. A lot of Twitch streamers are also just people that have nine to five and also stream as well but really a lot of people show up for like the personality, they show up for their level of production and I think that's also a market that can be tapped in as far as sponsorships or just seeing a community grow of gamers that I guess are a bit more career or a bit more experience as far as like they come from other industries and that they happen to have a very like very well known presence online. So those are kind of the ranges that I see as far as like gamers and casual gamers versus competitive gaming. So I think that there's a lot of brands that can really start reaching out and just experiment with the different audiences that a lot of streamers have put in a lot of hard work to grow. And so how does it divide between male and female? You know I think we traditionally think of the market being young men and but do you think that there's an audience, is there a female market? Yeah, I think the female market or girl gamer is becoming more of a thing that is existing and the representation is very important but also to like to know that there's a safe place for young girls to game and get that experience in that community. I think that as we get started right now seeing a lot of like women only led or women only tournaments I think those are good right now for representation and also keeping a nice friendly environment. And as we start to just have more serious conversations about just online and toxicity online and just some things that just aren't really appropriate for you know being online and gaming and just focusing on the game I think that as we kind of mature with this industry and also just from being online that you know there wouldn't have to be this sort of separation of gamers from you know male and female is that we can really focus on the game. But I think getting started it's just really important to show that representation in women leading in gaming whether they are on the organization side or the operations or gamers themselves I think that's really inspiring for a lot of young people that are going to get into gaming and make a great gaming culture because they realize how it can affect you know not just on the game but also like just the mental health of just being online all the time and being exposed to sort of the comments that are just online that just come with the territory of being online. So you mentioned BMW and that's you would call that a non-endemic brand right okay like what is the difference between a non-endemic versus an endemic brand we hear that a lot with eSports. So to define that I would look at when you're gaming you have your actual like game console versus you have the accessories that go with it so headphones to mechanical keyboard and then you also have the brands that are visibly in the game. So in most recently Cyber 2077 had Porsche endorse them as like the official car in the game that would be a good example of a non-endemic brand where it's not so much like a part of the gamer and their experience it's more of what the gamers are experiencing and visualizing from the game producers that are using brands or mimicking sort of like the culture in which the characters are in that's very similar to real life experiences. So what non-endemic brands other than Porsche and BMW have entered the space? I think also clothing plays a big part so the way that a character styles looking at things that are similar to like what cities are in just anything that could be similar to like either something a pop culture reference I think all those are considered a type of branding in a sense that still leave an impression on the player and also like cosplay being something that also is like very big into gaming anime manga you know I think all those references play into the culture of you know gamers are not just solo game solely focused on gaming they also have like a culture that is just very imaginative and I think that games really are a way to express themselves and also a community that they can have fun in as well so that's I think games are very interesting in how they incorporate other aspects of life into them. So as a consumer of games and being someone who is a gamer have you noticed the marketing directed towards you? I think at times there are some characters that emerge like for me personally like my narrative in gaming I think that you know definitely is more like representation becomes like more of a thing I think that there will be more characters and just more gamers that are just relatable to people that are new to gaming or have thought about it. I think that you also have like the casual gaming like such as like politicians being on gaming and live streaming and just being a part of pop culture I think all of that is a great way to show that gaming is this community that is very that can be very inclusive and that it's also you know you have the competitive side which is the esports and then you also have casual gaming so I think that you know just as more people kind of see it as a career path that it will start to have more representation that I think games not only will start with the creativity side but also too in the industry you'll see more organizations that have that diversity and inclusion that are really represent they really are representing the culture that's emerging right now. So how does esports compare with traditional sports as a branding medium? So I think that the players still have the same likeliness that they can monetize just as similar to a sports team having jerseys branding the television series that sorry everything being televised I think that esports has a very similar thing that they're experiencing. One production that I really love a lot is I really like how Rocket League conducts their tournaments and then I also love how Supercell does a lot of their filming of their productions for their tournaments as well and then you also have ESPN esports as well which is an emerging platform and then media I think that those are places that are raising funds realizing that how you can broadcast esports is just as exciting and just as a spectator sport as traditional field sports as well. Now if a company wants to market or advertise their product or service in esports what should they do? I think that getting familiar with the culture of the game in which you are wanting to advertise in so either it be figuring out what sort of influencers what games they like to play or just looking at what types of the type of game genre that you would want to be interested into. I think a great way for representing your brand is for media placements so either being the studio in which they are live streaming out of or the gear in which they're wearing something that doesn't make it too forced as far as like you know this is the obvious sponsorship I think that's something that still keeps the character well still keeps the the live streamer you know just honest to their brand and it's not so much like you know paid like of course it's a paid sponsorship but it's something that if you really get to know the player and understand like the culture that they're building and really see multiple influencers as a way to really bring your brand to that space I think that there's a lot of data that shows how the ads are being placed in addition to I think that there's a lot of resources that the gaming community could use as far as like production value to really bring that up as far as showing it as you know something that's not like a lot of the production is just shot like in a spare bedroom or at home but also too it's really exciting to see like live studios emerge and eventually when the world opens back up to seeing like audiences and having it really be that spectatorship I think that's something that brands can look at on how can they position themselves in either the viewing so like when people are watching other people play or even just brands that work with the lifestyle of the live streamer I think that's a great way for brands to start getting involved in the space if they they want to have brand exposure to a younger audience and also to people that are watching and actively buying yeah because you know that kind of goes to authenticity because you know I think that you're you're kind of explaining a way that a brand can become more authentic by familiarizing themselves with the space so now let's look at should should a brand basically go after a like someone like ninja or shroud you know an independent streamer or would it be better to advertise on platforms such as twitch or youtube and I think that it would be interesting to possibly look at a particular city and look at what gaming culture is there because that's a way for you to really tap into the actual player in the life that they're living and I think that you know besides it being the games that that a lot of players are playing it's still about the people and it's about gamers as a community coming together and having a game that brings us all together but I think that to really show something more interesting or just even see how micro influencers and even the more larger influencers with bigger followings I think that would be very interesting to see how one influencer might engage with the product or service that you're offering to the gaming community versus you know working with the already well established live streamers that are there I think that it opens up that opportunity once again for representation of that you know you don't need to have a huge following to potentially work with the brand but it's more about engagement which I think is to really step up and not just go off the vanity metrics that are there and I think that that type of research from a brand takes some time but I think that you'll have a long lasting relationship with an influencer rather than just you know blitzing your product out there just to make an impression on the gaming community but really to stick with a set of influencers or a game style that people will grow with you as your company grows and you mentioned metrics so what metrics are there available to determine what a brand's reach is in the space yeah so there are some emerging startups that are making metrics that take all of the data from viewership on twitch maybe followers on your actual instagram or yeah instagram youtube facebook you know all the all the major big five platforms that are out there I think that what still is being discovered is how exactly do you measure the viewership like when do when is the peak view of course when people get on and then also like when do when do people drop off and then also too in the stream there's so much because a stream could be close to anywhere from like an hour to four hours and like in a gaming session it's very interesting to see what sort of tools will be made to track that sort of brand engagement that's that's happening over time and to really give those solid facts to partnerships and sponsorships to really show the actual data but I think for now I think that it's when you're working with an influencer and they have an engaging audience you can kind of go off either I mean still affiliate affiliate programs are great because they give content creators a great way to talk about product and to showcase their stream and their setup and I think that does have a big metric that is transferred from the code that players are being able to enter for their community in order to see their sales but I think that you know as we kind of go along more metrics will emerge from the actual viewing of like the viewing of the actual but how to explain that it's it'd be similar to like you're watching youtube for hours like when exactly do you feel inclined to buy something from being on youtube for hours in the evening there's still I mean it's it's still kind of like a loose type of survey or really there's no data to back that up quite yet but I know that that's something that from a marketing background like you definitely want to figure out like you know at what point should I interject the brand in order to get them the highest return from this investment of working with this influencer but I think more importantly if you focus on the community and building up your brand around it I think that that has a longer impact than just trying to place a product like one of my favorite headphones is Turtle Beach and Steel Series I think they're doing really well right now with a lot of the content that they're creating especially seeing like a lot of people like from their company on the tiktok I think that's like pretty cool to see like how they're creating more community and they just so happen to sell really cool headphones it leads to this idea of fragmentation and marketing fragmentation in terms of like you're you're you might be targeting a us audience because your brand is or service is located in the united states yet it just so happens that a certain percentage of those viewing that particular influencer or that particular platform would be in China or would be in South Korea how you know how do you deal with that so you don't waste impressions that's that is a very interesting question I'm not as well versed in sort of an international viewership of a product being made but I still think that it's something that maybe from a local standpoint it would be interesting to see potentially local brands networking with influencers that are doing these longer live streams and potentially sponsoring them with some sort of in kind sponsorship or even so I think that's um I think that's an interesting and interesting fact to further like do research and really track to see who's really figuring out like what viewership is from more of an international market versus what's domestic as far as like American culture and the different products that they place um but I love that gaming organizations are worldwide and I think that's something to as yeah just as it goes further like you know that'd be something I could definitely speak further on as far as like international international viewership and products being being placed how do you think that pandemic has influenced marketing in these courts do you think that that's caused um there to be more interest in marketing in this space I think so I think that because a lot of people are at home and wanting more at home entertainment that you have seen an increase in game consoles especially the ps5 that's coming out the predicted sales are you know double or triple than what they are usually expecting the same quarter I think that a lot of people too are seeing that you know the stay-at-home culture maybe something that it can be enhanced either with like VR technology which is uh hazard season especially with like gamers or just experiences but also to people really seeing like what's sort of a second like career that I can have or you know an online based lifestyle that I can create from my bedroom with just like streaming or entertaining themselves or just being a personality so I think you see a lot more people especially especially now just really kind of looking at like well what's going to be the future of multiple industries and how can we sort of keep this online offline experience but really I think it's more of the community and the connection that we're building we're really starting to see how technology can assist to collaboration community and education and I think that you know I hope that that's here to say once you know we all didn't go back out I think that it is super important to share that knowledge across multiple countries or communities just from using the technology that we do have and more people will start to come up with more ingenious ways of how to either game or host tournaments online I think that's something that is going to be pretty exciting to see what the future of it is going to look like so you know I I do think that with the pandemic and the fact that traditional sports have been pretty much shut down that eSports has gained so much attention and so I feel that a lot of brands and you know entities and and actually traditional sports people like David Beckham have jumped in to invest in eSports and you know it seems to me that branding you kind of goes with with all of that that there is an increase in interest in branding I mean in advertising and in marketing with eSports that goes along with the general interest is that is that so yeah I think that you have a lot more traditional sports players being on eSports because it's fun to game it also increases like you know their brand awareness so people now know like you know football players soccer players just sports players in general that maybe they may not watch them play in during the season but they may have watched them game on the opportunity for a player to really show like you know more of their personality other like other sports players too which is pretty exciting to like you know see sports players like just being themselves off the field I think that the branding of it all and also just people seeing the opportunity of having a another source of entertainment which is like one of America's biggest exports of you know being entertaining I think it's going to be very exciting to see who else gets into the space and from what backgrounds of what's traditional sports that they have and I think that that's going to be especially for soccer I know that that's like FIFA is played much much more outside of the United States so it's really exciting to see um David Beckham like really like help brand it here in America and it's going to be exciting to see just more games emerge and more traditional sports players potentially back a lot of these games that are coming up for eSports and you know one thing that we have seen is that because traditional sports isn't playing or hasn't played at certain times during the pandemic that eSports have actually been shown on TV on various channels so that gives advertisers the opportunity to you know advertise in those arenas but you know I'm going to ask you one more question to wrap this up and what do you see the future of marketing in eSports to be? I see that there will be a lot more brand placement especially as visible spaces are being built out for players for organizations I think that also it would be great to see more education just around the eSports industry as far as like you know if you may not be athletically inclined to be a pro gamer I still think that you know marketing is a great path for anyone to pursue that wants to be creative wants to work with influencers also can be analytical and just really work from their experiences so I really feel like the future of eSports is definitely going to be people that really understand more about the gaming culture themselves and then can also tie in the traditional marketing channels such as TV online based and then also to like text communication and discord servers I think having a broad stroke of understanding how people are communicating is definitely going to be more of the focus on eSports and marketing in the future so that's that's kind of like my opinion on it I think that there's going to be a lot of more exciting ways that professionals like pro gamers and brands are going to collaborate I love the appeal of collaborations that are existing I think that that's going to be more to come with that as far as like marketing to players and even showing eSports apparel as more like a streetwear kind of feel so I think it's going to be interesting to see just across across some different different markets come into eSports yeah and you're in the right field marketing at eSports is quite exciting Alex thank you so much for being on the wide world of eSports today thank you thanks for having me all right thank you for joining us today next week my guest will be eSports PhD candidate Skye Kauvelova and we'll see you then aloha