 Hello my fair low Paragon nerds and welcome back to you for the main is the week the show where we talk about a different Paragon related games predecessor over prime and ethereal even though etherealism really Paragon related I don't know where I'm going with this anyway I'm your host the man goose joining me as always is my friend and co-host jelly knees how you doing jelly I'm good man goose I think you said fair low hello my fair low Paragon fair low my fellow no I am fantastic I told you guys earlier but I high scored two machines at an arcade last night which is always a good feeling and yeah so it's been it's been a good week for sure did you with us got the Viking Jedi how you doing Viking to bless to complain I did not you know set any high scores on old school video games you know this week I kind of kept it chill you know just been playing some console games with the wife we've been we just started Final Fantasy 15 it's been pretty neat so far but you know just chilling relaxing right on um how you do so did you put for your initials jelly did you put in as s couldn't write ass no I did not man goose oh well then you suck all right let's move right into it let's get right into over prime over prime this week they reintroduced their Trello they've had their Trello down for a good long while and they brought it back up which is a it's really great for content creators but uh it's great for the community in general because you can actually look see what they're working on real time and see when it changes um I believe I have it up right now so if you click with this little arrow here you can see like the most recent changes for it they're all in Korean right now which um usually isn't the thing but if we look through and we see in development um game game build developments for the PlayStation 5 so now you want to track where they are with over with with ps5 development and notice it doesn't say I didn't see ps4 or xbox on here but if you want to track how far along they are in the progress but developing for ps5 you can come here and to their Trello and check it out and that's linked in their discord I should probably put a I'll put a link in the video for this too so people can easily navigate to this Trello and there's a lot of stuff in here it's not just the ps5 there's the um the honor grade system and well mannered grade system for like uh you know commending people for for for good gameplay or just for being nice and then um a matchmaking an MMR system logic improvements which is sorely needed I do believe because you get matched really weird in both quick match and uh and ranked you wouldn't know anything about that man goose you haven't had a weird quick match game this week where you got ranked against somebody or put against somebody you shouldn't have it was a master two diamonds that are two goals I was like what the fuck is going on I held my own though god damn it yeah I'm sure he did chat with nobody there to witness it I'm sure man goose held his own in that game for sure yeah we just have to take him at his I think I I think I got a little bit of a recorded I'll have to check I'll have to check tomorrow's video is just gonna be just to prove jelly wrong but I was like I was like seven and five but the rest of my team was like oh and nine and like oh and oh and eight like oh if you're you're holding yourself to the standard of your teammates and yeah you did great in computers yeah exactly exactly you know what though we're we're also guilty of this we've we've brought along some uh some high tier players in our quick plays so yeah you would think that well I think that the right players just don't play quick match a lot so they get they get actually put in fairly low into the quick match system which uh maybe that's something they need to take a look at yeah uh signal board I they got a Iggy and Scorch developments that's uh I would hope to see this one in fixing the next update so fixing the next update that's the stuff you get expect to see in their next patch when it comes out so that's the kind of the important stuff item preset system developments that's really good so you can actually preload your own items into the game and have a preset before you go in instead of having to abide by the whatever they have or having to search through like a madman trying to find what you what you want which is going to be really nice to have absolutely I know for me uh because I did a copy of Raven's build uh that he uploaded and and I was sitting there having to like go like this like over and over again on my second monitor to try and make sure I'm building appropriately so it'll be nice to be able to copy some of those uh those things I I don't know about you guys but when I look at the Trello and um I get like too hyped on all the stuff that's we don't know how far along it's going to be like yeah that's the thing for me I'm like oh I really want that oh I really want that too and and I just don't know you know like I don't know some of the UI UX fixes that they have to work on and stuff like that like it just I don't know what investigating means I don't know what how far along that you know that what that means so it's always more of just like it's cool that they're looking at it yeah it's a weird one in that list for Iggy and Scorch that like gets my like tin foil hat theory brain going oh is the Iggy and Scorch turret rotating direction settings oof what a turret rotating direction settings that's what it says for Iggy and Scorch that to me sounds like it's going to be like a slider bar that I can adjust in the menu for sensitivity but at the same time I don't know what else it would be if it wasn't that so like you can control your own turrets and crunch doesn't have that same type of wording for any of his stuff yeah so it doesn't it's not like it's not like it's them trying to find the numbers for the ability itself or if they are they're wording that ability completely different than they're wording anything else for the other abilities and that's what makes me think like this is there's something weird that's going to happen with his turrets that is going to be interesting yeah what I'm hoping it's not is a placement like where if you place it you have to place it in a direction type thing and that because that'll bum you know if it's not like where it automatically targets based off of you know whatever's close to it or something like that that you actually all okay in a direction instead of having 360 degrees maybe it'll just have a cone or something like that like I'll be okay with that I'll be okay with the cone if the turrets are absolutely insane right if it makes if it takes skill for me to place the turrets to have them actually in the right cones but they just pop off when I do I'm in that's fine do that okay adding it almost like a skill expression that you have to like get the turrets in the right direction but you're rewarded by yeah um insane damage hey thanks for the resub so yes I still hope not but I I could see that if that's the case I would rather not do with this ultimate I don't know either way um another exciting thing that you see in the fix the next update special item slot system developments and they had they had a picture of this I thought I saved it down but apparently not um it's a separate item slot for your wards yes which we've been just rewards right there's some weird there what else what is that that's what nobody can figure out is it looks like it's a recall slot it looks like it's your recall and well like when you press the button it would show that your the recall is active on your bar to provide some symmetry from the ward slot totally fine if that was the case but it's got a 90 second cooldown in the the image they showed and what is a 90 second cooldown on your recall wouldn't that be wild if you could only recall like oh oh complaining about being too fast to get back to lane now you can't recall for 90 seconds well that actually would be kind of the thing that I saw in their discord when people were talking about it is that maybe it's a teleport that they're gonna make some other adjustments to how the speed of everything works and instead provide a teleport that you can use every whatever it is three minutes five minutes ten minutes to get to different areas on the map which would be kind of wild I would like but I would not at the same time because that means if they're adding a teleport they have to slow down the game again and the game already feels drastically slower in terms of movement from the last update and if they do that again it's just gonna feel really different on top of it and I hope that that's not the case purely purely because of that yeah same here I don't want that actually has that could be absolutely the case it could just be where the new smite icon sits that it's not your item or your item goes there or whatever it is and I think that'd be perfectly valid as well I really hope it's not a teleport as fun as that would be I think it would just piss off more of the community yeah and that's the last thing I need right now yeah I don't think there's many ways they can do it without pissing people off right now I mean to be pissed off the people that like it quick or either or pissing off the people that don't want it faster of the if it's teleport I think I agree I think it would be really bad I think it would also defeat a lot of the changes that they did for the portals like it would make some of that like null and void like if one guy portals through and now I can just follow him with the teleport it just I mean it could be fun it could add some gameplay could add some split pushing but to be honest I think pred needs a teleport way more than over prime does you know what I mean like that would make pred a lot more of a fun you know macro game in that regard but get him a gate scroll make it yeah make it a cost 150 gold so I have something to spend my gold on when I go back to base and then I can buy a gate scroll like fault pad and use that to get back to lane I think that's that'd be a great addition to to uh pred yeah most moped's have them up I would I would definitely approve for pred um we got some stuff about eggy and scorch skins we got crunch skin modeling we got uh looks like there's going to be another murdoch skin crunch animations bellica skin that'll be nice because right now she just has pretty basic recolors it would be nice to see a new skin for bellica a new another gadget skin um I wonder if that was going to be boobalicious as well well they just uh the one that they they they teased at that looked like a Zeus yeah that's a again I thought I said the picture but apparently did not yeah hey go ahead jelly jelly giggle about something that skin triceric cop I'm calling you out because you pissed me off entirely with talking about that skin because it talks about uh wielding thunder not wielding lightning that he's wielding sound instead of wielding the actual thing that this skin would be based off of which is Zeus and the god and lightning um so triceric cop pointed that out and now it's just going to piss me off every time I see that skin unless they fix it because it literally talks about yeah it's like whatever the post is something about thunder mm-hmm yeah it looks like Zeus and um but he's got it looks like he's got the beginnings of the uh the Gideon circle behind his back so that was the consensus we came to right was that we thought it was probably Gideon um which would be cool I mean he's he's probably one of the most popular champions giving him another skin kind of makes sense I mean it's he already has a really cool skin I kind of wish some of the other you know champions would get some love in the skin department but it's hard to be upset when obviously Gideon is a is a money maker for sure um just a quick one because spiritual soul added a good question in there because he said I think the speed is in a good spot since we kind of mentioned uh the the slowdown and pacing for over prime uh do we agree with that do we think that the the speed in the game feels better or is worse or is good um or neutral uh kind of neutral with it I've gotten used to it now but man it feels it there's times where I'm running through the jungle I'm like man I feel so slow right now as opposed to where it used to be yeah I think the it's a double edged sword because I think the speed I wouldn't want to see the speed get lower I'd be okay with a reversion of the speed uh but I think this is fine I think the old version was fine though too the thing that I think they need to figure out is how that speed doesn't become detrimental to greater output on the map on the map right when it's so easy to get from a to b it's hard for anyone to push b while someone is a right like so it's it's this really difficult balance that they're gonna have to find between this speed where it is and that concept of allowing things like wukong to split push and allowing these characters to do something else on the map without people immediately being able to show up on you every time so I think we kind of mentioned this last week my my biggest take as far as like the improvement for me is that speed ups in the game now feel more rewarding when you when you use them because you can actually outrun people that are still like you know what I mean because your speed up is faster than their sprinting speed in some cases which to me is is a good thing right like they have to land some kind of like long range cc or use some kind of cooldowns themselves whereas like before it felt like man I used everything in my arsenal to try and get away but they still were able to chase me down which is I think is one of the biggest complaints that a lot of people have typically with travel mode is that you know you just you can't run away from people they're always going to be able to catch you um at least in my games I've noticed that like you know when I'm playing offline especially I've been able to make good you know route choices and run away and be able to outrun people um have you guys noticed anything in that regard in your games it does it feel like you're able to actually make some positional outplays and run away from people or I mean the I think the main thing that needs to change their spirits to your drop that it does the um the ticking damage on people and it keeps them out of from going into sprint mode whereas you you hit one a bit you hit a wolf with shibby which is super easy to hit in long range now you can get to go into sprint mode and they can't because they're taking that taking damage items stuff like that needs to be adjusted in some way because that's kind of both what about like the actives though that give you you know like whether it's a muriel speed up or you know the Victoria secret my favorite favorite item in the game yeah yeah like those kinds of things like at least I've noticed when I you know built those things that I've been able to actually gain value with them to be able to kind of either maneuver around in team fights a little bit better or whatever it seems like it's more impactful because everybody else is a little bit slower the items seem stronger um but I don't know what it looks like as far as like you know rotations across the map like if you're jungle stuff like that like is there value in getting those speed up items that way you're getting to and from you know what I mean like does that make sense I hope I think there's more value to them now yeah absolutely it's definitely the the hard part with movement abilities especially in AOE is that your team can be in sprint mode and you're still boosting them in sprint mode while you are not right so if you're a nabash fine yeah propel my team in there I'll get there when I get there right but so it's it's a compounding problem that they're they have with a lot of these systems around movement is that that it doesn't quite fit together very well in terms of a 5v5 environment solo yeah great when I use movement speed on my movement speed on nabash I get pulled out of sprint mode and I'm slightly faster out of sprint mode than I would be at base movement speed totally fine when I have four of my team members in sprint mode and I use it and now they're zooming down the map and I'm falling behind and the enemy team can't get away even in sprint mode now it's this weird dynamic thing that I'm not a hundred percent sure is healthy in a lot of scenarios but can be in others as well so it's just it's like everything with over prime it's the balance they have to find between those two things to make it valuable for coordinated play and solo queue play um far as other stuff that over prime did this week they fixed minion health bars which I didn't think there was a problem with minion health bars but apparently they fixed it and um hired a new lighting expert so that their lighting should be a little bit better I know people have complained about the lighting I never really had a big problem with their lighting or anything but I think their lighting feels generic I don't think it is bad though yeah the thing that I want them to fix desperately is the two camp right next to the duo lane the smaller one looks like a gray blob and he didn't in the final test but ever since early access released he's been a gray blob and it's very strange it looks the same to me you're on crack I think it's your settings I think you're the one on crack if he looks the same he looks the same to everybody else and he looks different than you then you're the one on crack that's how it works nope pretty sure that's not how that worked baby um okay I think that is about it like I said there's so much on their trailer we there's just not enough time to go over it especially since we have a bunch of beefy uh pred patch notes to go through tonight I don't want the episode to be too long so uh do you guys have anything uh in closing for overprime before we move on to a thorough I just uh oh good there are a lot of things in fixed and next update that apply to Iggy and Scorch all right sorry Iggy and Scorch and Crunch I was gonna say you said that as if they're saying they're too different yeah yeah I realized but um so that might mean we get both of them in the next update at the same time which would be wild yeah I don't know about that but it'll be interesting to see nevertheless to me and this you're leading right into I was gonna like finish off with overprime um I just I feel like the last patch if for overprime is just meh I mean Wukong was to me fell flat he's not he's not really in a good place the rest of the changes were okay but weren't enough to keep me like super excited to log in and play every day like I've played way less overprime this patch since early access was released than I had you know it's just it's not really all that exciting and so this next patch I hope is changing that like I mean obviously I'm super excited for Iggy and Scorch like that's probably the one that I'm most excited for but um I was really disappointed with how flat this last update was so I hope this one is not that the because it's still I mean the thing that I complain about the most and I think everybody does is still the post 20 minutes feels like garbage um you know the inertia issues right like so people you know if you shimby right click you're just falling out of the sky if you go off of a cliff rather than feeling like you're carrying some inertia with you like those kinds of things feel annoying and game breaking and reduce the you know like I don't play shimby because of that like I want I want to play her but I know that that right click is gonna drive me nuts so I don't play her it's true it's at least that's how I feel so um and wukong the same thing when he just falls out of the air when he's doing his wall or his air run so there's there's some things that I think that they really really need to do and this next patch needs to feel to me like amazing to get people I think excited to come back I mean I think the champions at it will bring people in but for how long and that's that's really what I'm kind of concerned about and that's my final thoughts on on overprime I will say I think they can fix shimby by being able to redo your right click to cancel out the falling animation of the first one because you have to go through the entire animation of going through it and then popping back out of it before you can hit your right click again so times that you would think you would be able to just dash dash in a straight line you're not able to nope it's really wonky okay all right well um I think that's about it for overprime let's move on to ethereal and jelly ethanol why don't you uh set us up with the ethereal news ethereal is a game that exists there we go boom there we go that's it that's that was that that's my setup for you um hey you're you're on the screen twice and you're wearing the same shit do you just never take a shower I just never leave this spot no so this week we had the tick talks the marksman gameplay as well as the fire lane breakdown and then today we just released the video for the january update so kind of a much more deep dive into the information that we've talked about over the last month with in terms of like the lighting update the bases the all of that kind of stuff um and just going into more detail and explaining all of that stuff same shirts exactly ruba um so I mean marksman gameplay go watch that that's a little hard to talk about but there's some cool clips in there my favorite is actually one that I included in the january update as well is Dante sniping a kalea mid-alt out of the air brilliant brilliant play love that a lot like tom was over indeed yeah um and mangoes left a comment about this but we actually got to see malware's alts for the first time and that malware is super fun so that's always exciting yeah so it looks like a lot of a lot of really good lighting changes and for what you were saying in the video uh people are getting increased performance due to these a lot of these changes too right yeah absolutely so uh in the video I said that we're seeing an average of 20 to 30 frames increase from before the lighting change to after and that's purely lighting like there there was literally no other changes other than the lighting was just revamped to be more performant and also look better at the same time which is just the greatest win of all time of like you got to look prettier and be faster like I love that so I mean you're taking it to yeah exactly yeah everything looks fantastic iceline looks so much better so much better um greatly appreciate that I enjoy that it's not just a like you talked about just a um a filter pretty much thrown over top of everything it's an actual map um man okay you guys really gotta get a handle on those animations though it takes it pulls me out of it every time like when I'm watching a run run right now and I'm like oh it just looks bad man like everything about a 30 is fucking fantastic but then you get into the animations and it's just like it pulls you out it pulls you out of it definitely something that's in progress I know jelly I know it's in progress I know you guys are working on it just a power walker that's what it looks like he looks like you know like part of uh you know one of the like sunday morning power walking to church or whatever yeah that's just what you know oh my god now I want an iran skin where he's just got those like two pound weights in his hands yes and this is what we're right yes yes new iran skin it's coming with a walk man on his hip yeah please please fucking walk holy shit yeah that's like self-affirmation all time while he's walking giving himself little pep talks you got this people like it when you grabbed them today like there you go yeah he's not running he's just moving the earth beneath him I like yeah good one armor your demon fire does not look like a meatball oh man yeah but yeah other things we talked about in the video were mini map updates that we've talked about a little bit here but showing that you can interchange the mini map all at once they all appear at the same time instead of just being one lane at a time you can make that larger and then when you hit tab you get a full size version of the mini map of all three lanes that you're able to see all of it kind of get a better picture of what's going on respawn timers for the wyverns respawn timers for a tropos item information myth information all that good stuff the base portal so we talked about the updated basis which we've talked about on ftm before but the big thing that viking asked when we talked about that was about the base portals impacting rotation times and all of that the biggest thing the biggest change with the base portals that I didn't talk about at the time was separating them into two different things so there's an entrance and there's an exit they're not in the same location it's not one portal in both directions so when you're leaving the base there's an exit portal to get into the lane and then when you come back you come back into a different place of the base because in the last test and I said this in the video too in the last test we were seeing people just be like pop their head in through the portal be like oh no i'm good and pop their head back out through the portal and take off running through the lane again and it was unfair beyond all reason or dodging damage that they just keep walking in and out and in and out and almost certainly did that yeah and so now we've made it that like great you entered their base if you want to exit through the portal again and go back to fire lane for instance you have to walk through their their spire to go to the exit portal or you have to leave to your left if you're coming from fire to your left and go into the jungle in void and escape that way right there's a little more commitment there's a little more there's a little more to think about when you go through that portal rather than just like i'm gonna go in here and get information and leave for free and that that change has been probably one of the biggest changes too is like just getting used to that idea of i can't just go in there and immediately back the heck out if i if something goes wrong the camps look so good yeah i think everything looks fantastic you also talked about the shop a little bit you showed off the the shop with all the different items in it and talked about how there's gonna be a shopkeep that you actually give your goal to and exchange for your items which that's pretty cool yeah and yeah he's gonna be incredible he's gonna be incredible it's gonna add some nice just like character to the shop in the base as a whole right the i always think about in uh howling abyss and league of legends the aram map yes there's the shopkeeper that will talk to you and make jokes as you're in back in the base buying stuff and i something that always sticks out to me i don't even play a lot of aram but that that will always be something that sticks out to me and so i'm excited to have that kind of feeling in ethereal when you're just buying items from there as well yeah that's what i thought of too when you were mentioning it in the last video was like that yeah when aram like they have like special voice lines for different champions and how they interact with them you know like uh you know heimerdinger like oh i studied your books and call it or whatever like they just they have like different things and and i think that just again adds to the immersion for those who are paying attention but doesn't take anything away from those who are just looking to buy their shit and get out like it doesn't it doesn't hurt the game in any way yeah make the game a little bit more fun and i and i love that kind of stuff and voice lines and anything that again adds to the flavor of each each uh interaction is always fun so uh play test win yes there you go test plan i tried got anything else for ethereal for removal into all these uh pred patch notes i mean i will say that there was a section in that video about play test when that i pulled out to be on the safer side but there was a section in that video so it's definitely not something we're not thinking about wait what you're not not not thinking about it okay gotta keep that in mind yeah i mean the last thing i have for ethereal is if you want to support the game there there is the patreon you get access to information early there's a bunch of gameplays already a full gameplays up on the patreon already so that's if you want early access to information and access to more information that's definitely the place for it right on well with that being said let's move on to uh predisos so we got new patch notes for predisos so also this week they posted their first um leaderboards which i didn't even i didn't even look at a med you were number one oh med kit made it nice that's awesome i think he was part of it because they ended up uh which i was a big fan of and i'm sure we'll go into it a little bit but they ended up uh putting out different uh leaderboards so they did one for just across the board so that included like five stacks and stuff like that so the top 100 for that um but due to feedback which i thought was super cool they decided to do solo duo and then i think they finally added just solo queue so just people who soloed and uh oh that's awesome made it into the top 102 i think a med kit was in there for uh the the the five stack okay it was in there but yeah other that's awesome but i that's one i remember off the top of my head so lots of people from the community made it into congratulations guys lots of names i also recognize from the higher ranks of the overprime uh ranked queue and there's a lot of names that are on both of those leaderboards yeah yeah the balance changes uh matchmaking improvements um they're just we've tightened matchmaking search parameters our goal is always to increase match quality through this change may also lead to slightly longer matchmaking times in addition full parties of experienced players will have longer queue times but should allow for more time for the system to find the most fair matchup who will be monitoring these changes closely i think it's very safe thing for them to do in particular they have a very loyal fan base that's not going to give a shit if they have to wait a little bit longer to find a better match i think out of both over uh overprime and predecessor i think predecessor can get away with this a hell of a lot easier increasing the uh the length of their queues and it's not like they have a long queue time anyway um yeah and i want to shout out the breadcast guys because last week they actually had one of the devs from bread assessor on there that was talking specifically about matchmaking and kind of how that works what they're looking at all of those kind of things and what like what the changes were with the five stack and how that manipulated things and all of that kind of stuff which was cool to hear nice right on yeah i also with that because they i think they know uh that a vast majority of their player base are five stacking um and that they have to you know be aware of the the strength that comes with five stacks versus the solo duo queues and um what that does for the experience for players so the fact that they're just like that aware of it and even like again with the the leaderboards so they're tracking what's being five stacked what's you know solo duos and all that stuff which i was very very impressed by it and uh and i think it will make the game healthier um because for me and i think you guys probably agree if i'm in a five stack and it takes me about five minutes to get into a game i'm not that upset if it takes me 10 15 minutes to get into a game you know i might be starting to get a little grumpy you know what i mean but if we're talking like you know five minutes so maybe a minute to two change or you know the trios and solos and duos that's fine i won't be upset that's another thing they're doing though is they're reeling back the party modifier if you were in a party your um your m and r was inflated a little bit they're bringing that back down a little bit i think which is probably a good thing i think most people play with similar skilled friends really so and then you know we play with you man goose and then you guys play with me really in pred of the three of us i'm probably the one holding us back the most but i also yeah yeah 100 it doesn't really matter i'm just in my own little island so yeah you're definitely definitely it's definitely you that's fair i'll take it i get so angry in pred yeah you just with me oh yeah yeah some other hero changes um this hero changes but um they have right here uh health and mana regeneration and base increase from 12.5 percent per second 18 per second thank god it was taken it took a long time to regen your mana and base like uh a little too long i think in uh various hero recommended items updated uh jelly i think they've already done some pretty good work with that uh jelly you i mean you noticed that when you played richter jungle the other day like they've been tweaking that as we go and it's like they're gonna be tweaking that a little bit more yeah talk about s factor the heroes s factor is their scalar terms how much of their stats they get from their growth um they're here with a larger s factor it's just talking about how some heroes scale better than others pretty much um it's a cool thing to explain though right yeah like same this is and this is a stat we're tracking on top of everything else of like what is the this s factor what how does that help or hurt each or each uh hero accordingly and i think it's a cool thing that they're talking about to explain to the community that's not something they're ignoring is scaling and they're talking about how they compressed and increase some of them and for countless uh looking to stop tank counters abuse uh case that was causing her to become a near unkillable force this returners being a high damage squishy burst mage that she is so blood tithe magical lifesteal per stack decreased from two percent to one point five percent that's her passive blood syphon her rmb this is where she gets her but was revealing the base healing for target decreased just across the board it's still um the same early game but as you level as you level it up it's going to get a little bit less and the scaling uh increased from five percent to six percent so scaling actually goes up but the base number even flow or even tide her uh her e base damage decreased um just across the board um again still the same early game just a little bit decreased later game but the scaling has been increased from seventy seventy percent seventy five so uh i guess the the main thing that's going to make her a little squishier is that uh the magical lifesteal per stack i mean that's i mean it doesn't look like that much two percent to one point five percent but that's times ten huge yeah yeah huge that i mean that if accountants gets to that ten stacks she is going to be a menace in your game even if she's easy to kill she will get one with her every single time because she will have long enough to do so yeah right and so lowering that a little bit is even at ten stacks is going to be very useful for sure do you guys feel because when i was reading this this was my take on it but do you guys feel like this pushes her to jungle more or to lane more because i have my opinion on it but i'm curious what you guys think these changes uh i think it just keeps her the same it just makes her a little less effective at both and i think that's fine because she was a little too effective right now as she was my take on it was that it pushed her away from laning and more into the jungle so that way she has a more because i think her laning the only reason why i think she was able to keep up with the mages was with her base damage and healing that she had and now with that being lowered and put towards the later end of the game makes it a lot i think a lot harder for her to be able to go up against the the you know the mages who can just do everything uh relatively for free against the countess i mean a really good count is probably won't it won't matter but like you know what i'm talking with your average players you know an average fey is probably going to shit on an average countess whereas countess jungle can still probably be viable because she's not having to lane she just has to get her gold and you know make you know good use of ganks and all that stuff which i think was fine um to me it just makes it more that she has to be a jungler than a than a laner with these changes especially early game i don't really see that but yeah you don't oh okay i i don't think it makes her worse than lane than she was i think yeah i think she already was a great lane yeah that that that's my feeling right there is that i believe i think you're absolutely right jedi but i don't think that this is going to make her even better into the lane it doesn't back in it certainly doesn't put her back in the lane now right to me it makes it like i said that if you're wanting to play countess you're probably better off playing her jungle because i don't think she's going to do well into tanks and off lane she doesn't have enough to be able to kill them and mid lane she's just going to get pooped on by the mages so where else does she go at least my thoughts that maybe i'm again i don't play that much pride so the pride guys you guys can weigh in i guess and let me know mecha says she's not a good jungler i trust his uh his judgment but when she falls into the same problem feng mao does where she doesn't do the thing better than her laners heard the other laners in in her corresponding lane and doesn't really do anything better than the other junglers and so she's more of a jungler than a mid laner but that's not to say that she's a good one compared to the other junglers right like and that feng mao is the same way which is what amazes me about these next changes to feng mao yeah feng now i was very surprised to see this yeah feng mao has been seeing slightly too much success with bruiser builds that were shifting some of the power scaling from his ultimate into penetration this will help retain the strength of his ex-q and reset playmaking capabilities with assassin builds all whilst keeping his bruiser builds in check so okay before you get into this feng mao has a bruiser kit stop trying to make him an assassin that that was my first thoughts too i was like why don't you just make him a bruiser then instead of he's being too successful with force assassin his kit yeah like wow what a surprise stop trying to force him to be an assassin then like it's just a weird decision to be making he has an execute ultimate and that's his only assassin ability but but he's an assassin like it just does not make sense and then the fact that he was doing well with bruiser items only pushes that further right like that he was doing well with bruiser items because he is a bruiser not because he's an assassin doing well with bruiser items like it's yeah if it was truly that was the problem then your bruiser items are too strong if your assassins are turning into bruisers because of your items it's your items that are the problem not the character that's the problem but yeah i think people just build feng mao as a bruiser because he just fits the bruiser archetype so well i mean that's that's how he was played in paragon and i think that's how people want to play him in predecessor um yeah i don't know man that that that was my thoughts though i was like why are you trying to push him to be an assassin uh physical power scaling decreased from 80 percent to 70 percent this is for earth shatter his ultimate execute physical power scaling decreased from 100 percent to 80 percent and execute physical penetration scaling increased from 250 to 350 so yeah they moved it out away from power and into pen um i don't know man uh i just from what i hear i haven't really played him a whole hell of a lot in pred but from what i hear he's kind of weak as uh either an assassin or a bruiser when compared to like grucks or crunch you're never going to have him be a better assassin than countless or calari and he's a worse bruiser than a grucks or crunch so where does he actually fit in this right especially if you're nerfing his bruiser itemization right like now he's really screwed if you wanted him to kind of be like this in between assassin bruiser guy fine but you can't nerf his itemization now because because he filled the niche that you put him in right like you either need to make him full on an assassin which he is not currently or you need to make him full on a bruiser which he is not currently if you don't want him to live in this in between lane and uh assassins don't have a dash like feng mao does just as a rule like there are very very few assassins that can just jump in the way feng mao does with a shield with an aoe spin ability and an execute on their kit like it's just it's a very weird kit organization to call an assassin's kit you remember his old paragon passive his his defensive abilities would buff his offensive abilities and his offensive buff those would use like about balance which fit his his uh lore but not much else i think the thing that's frustrating is in clorox i think hit on it is he was already probably not picked very often as as an off lane or jungle and now he's going to get picked even less because i mean like you're screwing him harder than he already was yes because a few people did well with him does not mean you nerf him right there maybe there's something in the numbers that we're not privy to in our experiences of the game um i don't know it was like a hit and miss for me whenever i saw feng mao against me in the off lane i was like okay either this guy is going to be god tier and just shoot you know shoot all over me or he's going to be garbage and i just shoot all over him um the the bruiser build made him i guess probably more new but friendly whereas the assassin build is going to require him to be way more efficient at doing what he does and make him a lot more of a skilled champion which is not always a bad thing but i feel like i don't know there's just not there's not enough uh in the game currently substance wise for there to be really high skill level champions that that push him away from the general public like i think you need more access and more you know champions viable and i feel the same way to be honest about that the changes that they did for count is like okay so count has finally found a build that made her you know viable in a in a bigger scale granted it was probably too strong so nerf the items that made her too strong which i know they do in this but like you don't need to nerf her and the items that made her you know viable and strong like i i think that there was probably that's just my take on it it's like why are you taking people away from being picked so now we're just gonna go back to well we don't see count us anymore we're not gonna see fig now we're just gonna see the same year five on five matchups that we saw and hated like we see in fault was like okay so what we're just always all gonna see the same five v five champions at all times cool super fun chat's talking about how the sasas have dashes i would counter by saying that like um count us to clary and shimby they have dashes but they also have ways to get back out thing mel's dash is a one-way dash count us to dash in dash out calari dashes in then she can in viz and viz and jump out um shimby can reactivate her dash thing mel's dash is meant to engage and then stay into the fight he's about as much of the of an assassin dash as and bush is on chimera uh grucks e is another instance of that crunch right click if he doesn't have re crunch crunch right click another instance of that oh yeah all bruisers like it's wow crazy it just doesn't make any sense i don't know i think just leave it up to people to build him how they wish but uh i mean i'm glad they're taking a look at him i just i'm surprised that it wasn't just a direct buff of thing mel because that's the main thing that surprised me let's move on to the fey uh boxing with the fey's trading pattern was a tad too difficult so this patch is getting a scaling increase to her to bring her in line with other mages so her base health has been increased from five sixty five ninety and her q her bramble patch uh scaling increased from 55 to 60 percent so cool beans for the fey she's um people are really underestimate her e because it gains damage the more so more successive times you hit it within a certain time frame so if you can actually box with the fey it doesn't matter if you're getting hit with big bombs by like uh getting or if you're getting knock up stuns from bellica as long as you just keep pecking away at them you're going to end up winning that fight it's just that her e used to be hard to hit with the last patch they made it a hell of a lot easier so good stuff for the for for for fey mains yidgin uh getting has been able to ignore building too much may a mana early game often opting instead into the higher durability builds with a little trade off 100 he goes that true silver bracelet every time um so uh we're we're increasing his cost a bit and his main damage mobility to incentivize a little more mana in his item builds or to force more careful play when utilizing the magical bruiser itemization we're also increasing his scaling a bit like we've done with the fey just to make sure he can compete in the later stages of the game so scaling increased from 65 to 70 percent for his q is uh dropping the meteor and mana cost increase uh stays the same at the start but it goes up uh as time goes on and towards spaces e the mana cost is just a flat increase from 60 to 80 i think this is a i think this is great i've faced way too many um giddyans mid lane that just it seems like they just they're just blowing through their abilities while i can't do that at all or i'll run out of mana but he's just whipping stuff out but still has a plenty of mana to to escape with his e and it's like what the fuck man like why can't i just do that there's an amount though that i'm terrified the fact that they're increasing their late game scaling again because some of these mages get to late game and will just pop anybody it doesn't matter who you are what you're doing and how we're doing we're giving them another opportunity to do that oh yeah clorox i'm not saying building shoes over first but like they build it pretty early into his build a lot earlier than you would expect that kind of item i have seen him build first though i think the mana increases hopefully will be felt more because i i agree i think in this implies to all the mages the mages are getting a lot of love here which uh is is going to be interesting to see how it shapes the meta but like um like are we gonna see more mages in the off lane i don't know like i don't it either way i wish the mana meant more because it seems like for me as a as a as a solo laner my man is gone in like two fights of way two waves whereas like it seems like mages just never leaving lane they're always mana they can step off get a buff that gives a mana back and then they're going back into the lane and like you know gideon he's farming for free with like just non-stop cues and right clicks cues right it seems like to me and now granted i'm not a great you know pred player or anything but it does i hope the scaling because i i do think it should be where when you press your buttons you're doing so not just to be like fishing for landing a queue but you're actually like you're having to choose like am i going to farm with my mana or am i going to you know do damage to my mana like what is this and it doesn't seem like they have to make a choice it's like well i can just do both like you know so uh i don't know it hopefully it changes because it does seem like the the mages to get away with it a lot they just get to stay in lane all day i think if they wanted to make a nerf to the way they use mana they needed a nerf alchemical rod the the tier two item that builds at the azure core i think it's called the one that the more mana you get the more mana you get i think that's the route they should have taken but whatever what do you know would want to howitzer as with other heroes we're increasing howitzer scaling a bit to ensure that he can keep up oh great uh for a bug fix we're in fix an issue where howitzer slow grenades r and b description was displaying the incorrect amount of bombs our 2000 missile his cue that's the length it's getting scaling increased from 70 percent to 75 percent so now that fucking missile is going to hit even harder dude howitzer saw oh boy when we played that those games dude howitzer was the most annoying he was playing in the solo lane he was just pooping all over me trying to gank him was almost impossible if he had his ultimate up plus his knockback with his it was just so frustrating and annoying and then he also has a flash so it's like dude what do you what do you do against that guy and then you just scale indefinitely and then team fight better than every other mage get the fuck out of here dude howitzer to me is like chimera he's just too broken i don't understand it super predictable though a lot of these changes especially if we when we get shinby later on this month we're just gonna see mid a mid lane mages going to off lane almost every game and he's off lane off lane character selection equals you play crunch or you play grucks that's it and the only way to switch that up is to be taking all of the mid lane mages we have and throwing them in the off lane and giving them later and later game scale scaling is only going to increase the potency of them in the off lane because that's the lane where you just go to scale like just go hang out chill for a little while then when you're howitzer at level 12 you can just annihilate anybody you want it's fine like it just it's they need to figure out that balance of pushing people out of their lane because there's so many of them and now we're buffing them all and like it's just it's a little while that's it's a scaling problem for sure i'll think how it was as bad as it used to be because people have learned how to play against i mean he's super predictable like you know like oh he's getting low let's get the stun ready for when he tries to fly up in the air you know i think the biggest thing with howitzer is his rock paper scissors feels the worst because it's not rock paper scissors as much as it is it's not a choice of i'm throwing rock he's throwing scissors i win because i threw rock it's i am rock he is paper if i don't have scissors around me i'm just screwed like so it's this weird balance with his ultimate especially of if you're fighting a howitzer one-on-one and have no way to get him out of his ultimate you're just screwed there's nothing you can do about it flashing doesn't mean anything that his range is insane like you're just sol yeah there's not enough ways to be able to aim cc him out of in like one view one situations or even like two v one situations you just if you don't do 100 to zero him you just he gets out it just it feels like just go galaxy grieves jump up to him and beat him down yeah okay sure i'll i'll make sure i'll take it take that on on crux next thing i'm modeling uh kalari kalari's first clear has become infamous for its speed now quickly she can come online we're looking to slow it down a bit as well as slightly decrease her dagger scaling to tackle her tendency to snowball her death mark was also functioning incorrectly and is also getting fixed and her core item milady is being targeted a bit to make her feel a more fair to fight in normal matches uh general uh base attack speed decrease from 120 to 110 uh attack speed growth decreased from 3.3 to 2.8 uh fix the bug causing death mark to scale with 5.5 percent of your physical power instead of 3 percent of your physical power and crippling dagger her rmb scaling decreased from 90 percent 85 percent now this this is a proper nerf boys oh oh hard hard the thing i so i guess my biggest curiosity is what this like infamous clear speed of kalari jungle is comparatively to literally anybody else in the jungle like i'd be very curious to find out what that is in terms of speed and how it's it because this makes it seem like it's drastically better than everybody else's and i don't know where you're getting drastic from like it to me maybe maybe a couple seconds but to me i don't i don't see where that infamous for its speed comes in maybe you're just totally wrong you can jump up and over jungle camps because in that case there are a lot of people that can jump up and over jungle camps if you're doing it the right way i also feel like this is uh an indirect buff to uh the squishier champions too like you know so we're not only is count is going to be less viable but now i think kalari is going to be less viable so the assassins in your games are probably going to decrease which means that mages and the squishier champions are going to feel a lot safer running around the map you know what i mean because they're not gonna have to worry about the you know crazy assassins showing up out of nowhere and bursting them down to zero uh so i think this is a very strong mages patch like this is good mages are going to be so stoked i think this patch uh that's my guess anyway just based off the the paper that i'm reading here i mean she was uh she was she could get really ridiculous and snowbally so i'm glad they made a change to her but we'll see uh we'll see just how far these nerfs go that seems like some pretty uh pretty hardcore nerfs yeah did it bellica bellica is is needing a bit of a boost what so we wanted to give her a little more oof in her core loop we're giving her a little love by increasing the up time of her stun to benefit both support in mid whilst also increasing her base damage on void drone to help keep her up with the other mages in the early stages of the game as with other mages also getting some uh handy scaling increases too so size book assault or q that's her stun the uh knock up or whatever scaling increase from 65 to 70 percent and cooldown decreased just um stays the same early game decreases across the board going later into the game void drone her e scaling increase from 20 to 30 percent and void bomb her rmb base damage increase from uh again starts the same increases across the board as it goes up quite a big increase uh i want to know what mid lane mage is in charge of their balance department why did bellica need a buff men bellica is far and away my favorite of all the mid lane heroes and predecessor um maybe that's just me maybe i'm crazy for thinking bellica is that freaking good but she seems to be that freaking good and i don't understand why they're making her better sure it's a mage patch dude fuck it whatever it's a mage patch it's more of a mage patch it's you know it's a it's a mage uh dynasty here fuck it so i'm saying some mid lane main is in charge of their balance department suddenly we had rgs ace making sure every carry was busted and then now we've got a mid lane main making sure that mid lane is just insane uh murdoch murdoch has fallen off a bit recently when it comes to the later stages of the game with the aforementioned aspect changes we're giving him a bit more health to help him survive the onslaught so just a health growth increased from 84 to 88 so he just gets more health scaling he's a little tougher later in the game which with the assassins get nerfed it's good that he's a little bit tougher later in the game yeah real good real real glad about that one oh no did murdoch dita oh oh fuck with adc is it boring we're not just actually boring in in pred i mean i think nerfing the assassins on top of buffing a carry was interesting but but it is what it is muriel small meta buffer muriel should help her out when she maxes her consecrated ground this also helps support muriel's a relevant consecrated ground or e meta cost decrease from whatever to whatever it's just decreased um later in the later stages of the game uh i don't think that i think muriel needs more than this to become relevant yep i completely agree uh she has none of the grand utility or safety of any of the other supports right now and she's suffering for it i mean you're always going to have that handful of players that could play the dog shit out of muriel and play it just be super annoying by always saving their allies but just across the board of the general just regular joe players uh i don't think she's you're never like oh no they have a muriel he fixed his camera i've been waiting for it to fall over man goose for the last couple of minutes it's slowly been sinking i mean i haven't played support in a long time but it felt like the duo lane in general was the most boring of all the of the things you could do like and i would think that support is probably the most of all of them the most boring and muriel at least in op we talk about it all the time she actually makes playing support fun like you you actually feel like you're engaged you're you're part of every team fight you're part of like you know all the action across the board and i i just never got that impression um with almost any of the supports other than you know if you're you're landing god to your hooks all the time it just none of them are all that exciting i know that they bring a lot of utility and and you know they're still valuable but is there really anybody who's like god i can't wait to queue up for support like you know what i mean like maybe there's a handful of psychos out there but like really i don't know maybe i'm crazy see and i completely agree with blouse those kings like she needs a stun she needs out of the five supports five right that you can play she's the only one that lacks a stun or hard cc of some kind right and then on top of it decker has her cage uh the what's his face rikter has his ultimate nabash has funk right like you got and his ultimate you've got uh bellica with her knockup and the mana drain and all that she needs something to provide more value to her team because all the other supports just outclass her and her shielding is not good enough to offset that 90 of the time i like real easy's idea wins lucky yeah that could be cool that would be cool i don't know anything to spice things up and make people feel like okay i'm picking this guy to do something special um and and that's actually something i think i complain about with pride a lot is that there's only a few champions that you pick and you're like i'm going to be able to do special things with this champion and i just don't feel any of that with with the skill expression for muriel is did you shield before they took damage or were you the bad muriel that shielded after they took all the damage like that's the only skill expression yeah i mean i just i guess hitting her her abilities but never nabash nabash has been a touch offbeat with his song of my people ability and it has generally felt tough to invest into with these changes we should feel more comfortable maxing out his healing either first or second as well as helping him sustain his stacks in the mid to late game when he can get that ability rolling uh base mana increased from his just his base mana from 380 to 480 holy shit uh mana growth decreased from 70 to 60 base mana regeneration increased from one to 1.5 these are the pretty hefty our bash buffs here song of my people his e mana drain per second changed from 10 15 20 25 30 just to 20 across the board so it'll be a little uh rougher to play early game but much easier late game healing per second increased uh just across the board just a across the board increase beat drop stacks per second increased from one to two even gets even more beat drop sacks too man they really uh uh mana uh thunk is rb mana cost increased from 50 to 60 so yeah uh these this is these are some nice changes for old nabash 100 you'll love to see it why don't we get these changes from uriel you know to revin alt based on feedback we've received from the community we're increasing his rate of fire we're also looking to increase the damage on his fourth shot specifically against high health targets to emphasize his trading pattern and lane and to make sure that his fourth hit feels much more impactful his base power and obliterate damage have been reduced to compensate and make him more about poking with his fourth auto rather than just shoving alongside this comes quality of life changes to make obliterate better track your target to help avoid those pesky near misses speaking of obliterate magical power scaling has been increased and has been added to scar better pair with the enchanters that can build crystal tear increases damage what this means is that magical power revenant may now be a thing if you're feeling spicy astral catalyst revenant they made it a thing after i said it last week here we are uh but i am glad they increase his rate of fire i know a lot of people in the community were talking about it and when i played him that i sat there and every time like every shot i was just like oh it's just a little behind it just feels like it's a quarter second later than i want it to be to feel good yeah and that i'm hopefully this addresses that because i think that would be a great change uh and yeah real easy i'm with you 100 percent i just like that they're kind of changing like that fourth hit mechanic because that's like that's what makes revenant fun is that you have to hit your shots especially that fourth one you can't just spam that shit like murdoch or sparrow or something like they need to hit their shots too but it's a little bit more impactful when you miss a revenant than them i completely agree with you except that foresaw getting buffed is wild it deals a ton of damage it's already a truck ton yeah well so if you guys know i because i was curious when i read this i wasn't sure so against high health targets does that mean targets that have like higher health pool or they're sitting at a high health percentage like so let's say max health versus 50 health if you hit the max health it does more damage versus if they're at 50 percent out if it does less damage or is it that they it does more damage the more health that the person has natively does that make sense like i because i wasn't sure what that meant uh i was the only one who was confused yeah i don't know it does less damage he's right click no they said that they want his right click to feel more impactful against tanks is that what it is because if that's the case that maybe again what it makes him more viable and not based missing health so it's based on missing health if they were lower health his shot did more damage okay but now it's doing less off of missing health and more off of critical just crit damage early and then the same amount of crit damage late it was base physical power decreased from 57 to 52 base attack timer decreased from 1.1 to 1.01 base attack timer reduction per level decreased from 0.018 to 0.014 i'm doing the math it all checks out okay all right good yeah thanks we're doing fine uh is obliterate base damage decreased uh just across the board scaling decreased from 50 to 40 percent the consecutive missiles modifier increased from 15 percent to 20 percent uh magical power scaling increased from 75 percent to 100 percent range increased from 1500 to 1750 and cone angle decreased from 60 to 55 which is actually it seems like that would be a nerf but it's kind of a buff to rev because you want to be yeah what less targets to accidentally hit with that shit yep and i'm glad they actually gave a range increase to obliterate because there were several times that i would hit obliterate thinking somebody was in range and it turns out they were just that far away yeah that far out of it and i was like it feels like it should go that just just a little bit but i will always say that if they're ever just this far out of my range i feel like you should give it to me just a little more range hellfire rounds is rmb uh base missing health damage decreased from 6 to 4 percent modified critical damage change to just increased across the board and so it's uh the crit is higher early same late where so the damage late game is decreased because he's doing less missing health damage and the same amount of critical damage the damage early game is increased relatively depending on how much health they were missing when you were hitting them i just have to say and i don't know what this if this is a nerf or a buff or just a powers change and every game then that we've played on pred where there was a decent revenant they were highest damage by far and like i'm like like doubled it sometimes triple the next highest i yep i don't know how healthy that is for the game i think that would have been if that person would have been on another adc it would have been the same case i think though i don't think it was revenant i think it was the player the fair i guess i don't know i i don't play as many pred games uh but it was just seems like consistently rev was just popping off with the damage um but maybe yeah maybe there's just skill of champions i don't know community you guys can weigh in let us know rector we're bumping down rector's health just a smidge to compensate for the s factor changes that are now giving him more health in the early game general base health decreased from 560 to 540 i don't really see any problem with that yeah rector he's a he's a he's a champ yep he's he's up there in terms of the supports so bringing him down a little bit is valuable also still pretty viable and like offline and you know you can make him work in jungle too so i think it's it's fair to to play with those a little bit uh several wrong seven is getting plenty of compensation in this patch due to fire blossom nerfs we've increased his overall survivability and helping out his early siphon damage a little bit to make stacking and trading feel less punishing so his health growth increased from 92 to 2 base physical armor increased from 28 to 31 siphon base damage increased from just across the board uh phantom rush his r&b cooldown decreased across the board so he'll be a little more elusive dealing a little more damage uh it'll be a little more a little more tankier i think this is good i really like several i think i love playing several in predecessor however um anytime i've played a grucks or a crunch i've just destroyed and somebody was playing several i've just destroyed them um to the point where they weren't able to get online later in the game and get their revenge um yeah whereas on the other hand that late game with a bunch of stacks yeah he'll do super well but if he gets shut down early he'll suffer the rest of the game my issue though for him and again people from the community or you guys can also correct me is that he has to sacrifice the ability to you know control his lane to show up for team fights where he's most effective that to me is the problem like without a teleport or anything like that when you're playing him in solo lane you're so far away from the action so much of the time that you're it you just like i said you're either sacrificing that you're going to be in lane and getting your stacks to show up for team fights to be effective and until again without a teleport or something like that to where he can actually be involved and do what he does best you really are only going to see him effective after you're you know going for the big pushes to end games you know what i mean like it just and i think that's the unfortunate but he just kind of feels really off on his own and not being as effective as as the tank that we need him to be yeah it takes a little bit to get online but uh great great hero feels really good to play in bread he feels very slippery very slippery it's surprising how far away he gets like ganking him is hard it's not it's not easy but yeah i don't know i would love i would love to give maybe it's because i play so much solo lane uh i wish solo lane felt like it mattered more uh before things get to the serious like games it just feels like you're on an island just waiting to be ganked that's all it feels like waiting for your jungler there jungler one of the two because you can't ward enough to be able to stop it so it is what it is you're just you're just waiting up i guess i step forward just too many pixels and now i'm dead i think a lot of that also comes down to everybody having blanks too because it's like yeah when i'm mid lane like do i i'm like i don't really want to go off like because he's just gonna blink there's no reason for me to go over there or while you're running you're rotating to maybe do a gank you're gonna encounter their jungler that you didn't know was there you're gonna come around a corner and then now you're just dead and you've lost your prize but yeah you're just lost your lane pressure and all that it just yeah uh then we got steel swiss army steel still continues to be a menace due to his easy trading pattern and powerful jack of all trades kit hey we're knocking down his damage a bit and decreasing his potency when trading with shield bash to force him to commit a little bit more to get the value he desires so shield bash is rmb that's his bunk base damage decreased uh across the board stunned duration decreased from 0.5 seconds to 0.3 seconds range decreased from 325 to 300 so you got to get a little bit more in their face to hit him with the bonk and force shield is e base damage decreased across the board um yeah steel is just he's he's a menace both over prime and uh and predecessor steel is uh just a good pick yeah i mean and i don't think that these changes are going to stop that i think he's still going to be a menace like uh and not and then mostly to me it's just because who he's going to be going up against item wise there's not anything that can stop him like there's that's to me there's just no i don't know when i think of like uh you know playing grucks into him well i just you know if i cue him into me that's where he wants to be anyway so like i just put him next to me and he's like and then he still has his knock up with his cue he gets all the shielding it's just like okay and now i'm just you know it's a very very tough guy to deal with um i think that it's like steel and crunch were both really really hard to figure out i think they've gotten crunch a little bit more in line now with the the healing but steel just feels he feels so strong um and i don't know how he is as a support but in solo lane it's god he's so fucking frustrating to deal with you know i feel like you're winning the trades like you're just either going even or he wins but here's the thing with steel i don't think they're adjusting the right thing that the thing that makes steel so good is his cue has priority over every other ability in the game it's like like gilly was talking about rock paper scissors you got rock paper scissors steel steel just beats everything like that cute like oh you started your smashing grab i'm just going to cue now and you're done um oh you started this i'm gonna just cue now and you're done oh you think you're going to dash i'm just going to cue now just uh knock you out of that like his cue just it cancels everything yep big true i had an ulcer where he could throw his e down and then stop like the minion aggro from hurting him while he's still getting betrayed into you it's he's frustrating to deal with fun frustrating to deal with like yeah a good steel player will fuck you up oh yeah uh my favorite item item changes phoenix due to community feedback we're lowering down the time it takes for phoenix to expire to better allow players to wait out the effect rather than feeling like they have to force a kill uh rebarth location marked duration decreased from six seconds to four seconds so you respond faster after you activate phoenix so instead of everybody just huddling around that little that little ball wait right we're like like a gravestone coming out of his ultimate go ahead jelly this item we had the greatest laugh about yesterday because we're playing predecessor so weird and i i'm 99 percent sure it was the interaction with the way this item works is i activated phoenix on chimera i then got killed but i think i got killed like right as it was about to expire or something like the the timing was perfect so it gave me the death camera on to man goose's bellica but respond to me as chimera so i could all move from man goose's perspective and man goose had to like chase me around the map in order for me to see where i was going fantastic bug 10 out of 10 would laugh again incredible incredible deal he was playing fourth person a fourth person mobile five minutes until i died again i had to i had to die in order to get it fixed but i we took mini prime with me like that it was the greatest thing on the planet because all of your abilities still worked like that was it was well in that same interaction like as we were fighting in the jungle i got teleported to where i think your thing was supposed to revive you somehow and i was fighting another guy and i got joined back some i don't know what happened it was the weirdest bug uh yeah i know you you probably sent that video to somebody and hopefully they could take a look at it but it was hilarious like you activated phoenix in the fucking bermuda triangle of their map yes it was fucking weird you should upload that clip so people can really appreciate it yeah it was funny him channel go do it i missed it maybe i missed it all right um here to bremstone bremstone has been seeing abuse on more than just tanks so we're bumping down its damage output whilst maintaining the jungle clear to ensure that tanks don't fall out of the roll um bug fix fix an issue that caused bremstone to draw a tower aggro um i thought it was supposed to um anyway the passive blaze based damage decreased from 20 to 12 additional damage versus monsters increased from 50 to 100 so the damage has gone down quite a bit but it's going up quite a bit for again jungle camps jungle camps clears can get more effective but the damage to heroes is less effective but wait a second it's a bug fix that you draw a tower aggro because you're dealing damage to enemy heroes what yeah i thought that was supposed to work that way that if you had it like that was like the drawback of using a radiating damage yeah or uh item like that is that you will draw at and tower aggro if you yeah because you'll deal damage to an enemy hero so it pulls aggro onto you that i what that makes this item way better actually yes it's nerfing the damage but the fact that i can stand under tower against an enemy and still do damage without taking aggro incredible but best buff in this entire patch list yeah that means when you're going the whole ring around the rosy thing where you're but you're trying to hit their tower they're trying to hit you they're gonna be taking damage that entire time incredible uh um for assassins melody melody has has seen abuse outside of us into the class or melody has also been seen abuse outside of us into the class so we're decreasing the scaling to help prevent exploitation from carries and bruisers as well as stop kalari's first item spike being too egregious uh general demise scaling decreased from 30 percent to 10 percent generally this is your item great the kalari is just gonna suffer it's just i she already got nerfed hard now she's getting malady nerfed i saw that uh somebody the other day was running a crit kalari instead which was valuable i don't think it was as good as the assassin kalari but crit kalari and now that malady's getting nerfed you may see her start with a different first items that could then focus on all of those things like crit builds or anything else it sucks that it's again it seems weird that's the the other heroes are abusing this thing and so we're gonna nerf it for the main person that needs to use it like yeah i agree with real easy kalari won't build malady now like it's just not worth it anymore uh nightfall general bug fix fix the issue where the eclipse passive was granting 10 percent omnivamp rather than five percent oh that's quite the quite the unintentional buff for that uh mage um mage i'm just getting a big shift to allow mages to access more magical power in the later stages of the game without affecting their power in the early game some of the early game items like azure core have been had their skillings increased for this purpose so astral catalyst magical power increased from 50 to 60 mana decreased from 350 to 3 which is good astral catalyst you know i made fun of it in that video but it's really not that great of an item like here's the thing with astral in niche cases is that actually incredible in all cases people like lost their mind anyway yeah the thing is like when you get those full resets like you drop your ultimate and then your ultimate is immediately reset everybody's dead so there's like nobody use your ultimate on anyway so it's not as ridiculous as i made it out to be of course but uh so i think it's kind of nice the mana decrease in the uh magical power increase azure core this one's kind of a problem uh arcane magic passive scaling increased from three percent of maximum mana to four percent of maximum mana i'm surprised they're buffing this i mean you just need it you know the thing well you usually don't even build azure core until you've built a few other items after you've built the tier two alchemical rod that builds into azure core the thing that i kept thinking about while i was reading through these patch notes about the magic power especially is the when they released decker's kit and released her numbers and we were all sitting here going like she's got what kind of scaling i mean yeah right and they're like don't worry items don't give that much magic power and we're like oh okay and now they're buffing magic power and i'm going back to that being like maybe i should play decker off lane or mid or something like i have full damage decker sounds really good i don't want to see it i don't want to see it combustion pyro passive base damage decreased from 80 to 70 scaling increased from 10 to 18 percent very powerful passive and it's uh i mean overall it's probably it's getting a buff later into the game it probably was a little too strong early so i think this is a good change dream binder uh we're shifting dream buyer to give it more offensive applications rather than defensive ones to make it more viable on mages and not just magical power bruisers so general uh cost increased from 2900 to 3000 magical power increased from 60 to 80 who's up magic out who are the magical power count countess rector could make really good use of this he's a magical power bruiser oh okay there you go so rector health got it steel technically yeah i don't think steel was ever building this but no but i if you really wanted to he could build that says that could build this stuff could build this yeah okay sure uh health decreased from 350 to 250 build path changes from scepter to nation's drape codex to scepter to nation's drape scepter uh golem's gift general magic power increased from 60 to 70 shinby shinby bruiser yeah shinby could build that yo tank shinby back in paragon was lit wild yeah yeah uh magnify general magical power increased from 50 to 60 oath keeper general magical power increased from 60 70 health decreased from 250 200 celestial spell blade the passive magical power scaling increased from 40 to 50 percent so that extra hit that you get with oath keeper is going to hit a little bit harder i have a question magnify it's called magnify but it looks like a like a spear hook thing it looks like a harpoon yeah none of their item are okay fair enough i'm just sorry i'll just leave it at that i won't go on my rant oblivion crown general bug fix oblivion uh visual effects now correctly plays on the target uh spell breaker general magical power increased from 55 to 60 that'll make it a little more easier to build into this without thinking that you're giving up magical power um spellbreakers the one that gives you a spell shield uh tainted scepter magical power increased from 65 to 70 again just makes it a little more enticing to build this as people should be building it i say that in my last video i was like i'm not even taking taking tainted scepter that camera sucks um time warp we reworked time warp has been reworked due to its problematic nature pushing this to more of a late game tech option due to higher stat line we understand that this will be less viable on supports as a result and we will be looking to improve support itemization in a future balance pass we just lost jelly uh no cost 3300 gold 100 magical power 15 physical armor 15 ability haste aeromancer casting and ability grants magical power and three physical armor for five seconds stacking up to five times chime every five seconds subtract point five seconds from all current ability cooldowns builds from abysmal bracers and chaotic core looks like it just a pretty good end cap i i'll have to trust you on that i don't get deep enough into the to the to the nerd stats of of items to know what's good or not good i don't know jelly's coming back someone's gonna turn off all of our names for now because people go oh oh gosh darn it literally as you do it of course and let's get back in it's world breaker the general bug fix fix an issue where the fiend passive would stack up to five times instead of four uh tank items dynamo a small damage decrease to one of steel's favorite items immobilizer passive scaling decreased from five percent to four percent fire blossom this is the one we were waiting on we're making similar changes to fire blossom as we did to brimstone we're also blocking brimstone from being bought in conjunction with fire blossom to avoid abuse cases thank god general now blocks brimstone from being bought whilst owned blaze passive base damage decreased from 25 to 15 additional damage versus immobilized targets increased from 50 percent to 100 percent the main thing i want to talk about with this item is i'm they don't go into enough detail about how they're blocking it are they just outright you cannot buy brimstone while you have fire blossom that's what i thought yeah i didn't think there was a question here yeah i thought process why not make them the same passive name so that they don't work together like we've they talked about in other that other games do and that they've changed the name so they're not the same so people know that they work differently or work independently of each other why don't we do that here so yes you can still buy brimstone but they don't do the same thing though right well why what do you mean uh like the damage is different and then um fire blossom deals increase damage against um targets that you've stunned or cc in some way then why are you limiting that i can't buy it if they're if they're two different things that like this is the issue i have with it if they do two different things the damage number is notwithstanding right and they do two different things then they should be two different items that i can buy and should be balanced within that interaction right if they're not different enough that i can't buy them make them the same name so i know that i can't buy them or i can buy it for pure stat reasons which i you shouldn't do but keep it consistent like it just is this weird thing to be making that you just can't buy it because you own a different item because people won't understand why that is so it needs to be clear as to if i if i right click it and i'm just spamming right click on brimstone and i can't buy it it better be telling me why because otherwise you're going to get players that are confused about what that interaction is of why i can't purchase this item and there's no clarity around it remember they did the same thing in fault with an item i forget what it was but that one that also confused well they didn't understand why they couldn't buy certain items they picked something else up i forget what i think it was a similar item to uh are we done with uh like if you just make it the unique passive then buying the item doesn't have doubling returns even though it's slightly different from each other it doesn't double the returns on it and you can still buy it if you are making the wrong decision by buying brimstone after buying fire blossom you still get the stats from it and you're still spending your gold but it's one of those weird interactions there's nothing else that's keeping me from buying something else because i own a different item to me it's simple like even if you want to keep the two passive separate you just have the the passives in in the tool tip say that they can't interact with each other like you know what i mean to me that that works right like okay so if you have this the passive will not work with this like you you know what i mean like so that way you know does not stack with brimstone ta-da whatever and vice versa right does not stack it just maybe they'll do something like that in the future this is just the the quick fix for it this definitely needed some kind of fix need to be fixed quickly mm-hmm uh raiment of renewal this is this is way this is a way to reduce the potency of burst healing heroes like countis raiment now works better sustained healing will be better utilized well thanks general haste decreased from 15 to 10 regenerator passive passive healing from damage taken increased from 10 percent to 15 percent synthesis reworked from increase all healing received by 50 percent to gain health regeneration equal to 1 percent of your bonus health again just seems like they were really targeting the tank countis yeah they definitely did there's a part of me that's like they nerf this almost too hard like they're making the items for because they were being abused by one champion or maybe two champions they were not just being abused by one or two yeah it was everybody they were systemic that you would get games of all 10 people are building the same three items uh i just i don't know it was just most potent on countis mm-hmm there were more people building fire blossom and predecessor than building smite and overprime there uh tower changes while there are they are there while you are there particular towers we wanted them to pack a little bit more of a punch themselves we're upping the base damage and the max damage of all three turrets while slightly adjusting their damage per level scaling keep an eye on those tower diving interactions we'd love to hear feedback outer base damage increased from 118 to 130 base damage per level decreased from 12 to 10 damage cap increased from 238 to 250 inner base damage increased from they just increased the base damage decreased the scaling and increased the capital outer inner and inhibitor so i think this is good to dissuade some early game tower diving when it shouldn't be a thing whereas late game when you have a little bit more tools to defend against a tower dive it's not going to they won't hit as hard so yeah i think this is just a good change overall the the only concerns i have for it is what is it going to do for last sitting under turret like is again that's something that you know some champions are going to be able to create pushes and other champions are going to struggle to be able to answer those so you know you as a skilled player okay i know that my melee's can take two tower shots and then i have to auto attack them like you know and so that's something that's not really addressed here is how the interaction with minions are minion waves going to be cleared faster by turrets so you know again if you are a split pushing champion being able to you know either set up waves or you know have a whit minion wave crash then the enemy laner who left to go back for gold or whatever and buy items they're coming back and the minion wave has just been cleared out by the tower before they can return like those kinds of things are going to have drastic changes if the these are also impacting minions if they're doesn't if it doesn't impact minions then it might not be but it's not addressed in here so that's the only thing i'm kind of curious about is what is it going to do for minion states and and all that stuff i don't know that's a good that's a yeah that's an excellent thing i didn't even think of that but yeah you're absolutely right it would affect a lot of the way you lane if towers don't shoot minions for the same percentage each shot regardless of what the tower damage is then it'll have a huge effect on minion waves 100% and i agree i think it should just be stated one way or the other if it does affect minions how it affects minions and if it doesn't affect minions just something saying this change doesn't affect minions or doesn't affect how minions take damage or anything like that yep i think this is excusable though i never would have thought of that it's it's excusable because i wouldn't have thought of it bug fixes fix the bug that caused the game to continue running even after closure thank god fixed improper or real quick that bug in particular there's been a lot going back and forth i precast talked about it the red it's been popping off about it over prime discord's been popping off about it about that bug influencing player counts because they at the same time as the path went out or god similarish time the player counts increased for predecessor with this bug so people have been going back and forth and i'm not here to opine about whether or not it is or isn't affecting the player counts i'm more so curious to watch what happens one way or the other if it's not affecting player counts because there's some reasons to believe it's not actually affecting player counts then great i'm curious to see what the people that were swearing that it did say afterwards they'll just find a new reason to be upset and it did affect player counts i'm curious what the people defending it are gonna say to try and yeah well but they this that the other thing is so either way i'm just here for the show i'll have popcorn ready i'm very curious to see how this this bug fix changes the perspective of a bunch of people i'm over here in the camp of just like i'm tired of people talking about player count like yeah just just let just let the games be what they are like they're both in early access they're both trying to do their best to put out a good quality product you know what i mean play the game i'm so tired of this war between the two camps well which is hilarious while you have over when now that we've got the the leaderboards you see the guys who are at the top of op are also at the top of bread it's like bro just play the games if you enjoy them for whatever reasons like it didn't enjoy it like don't worry so much about like the player counts like it doesn't it doesn't affect you too to the degree that you're going to bat on your reddit post the amount of time that you're sitting there typing up about they just calm down man eat a bagel or something just relax eat a bagel yeah bagels are delicious no no what a bagel yeah it's like tomato on it all right hi let's let's go wrap it up for predecessor you guys got any final comments for removal to the questions for nope uh yeah shinby shinby meta i accept i put that in the chat i accept the shinby meta and i'm ready to hail her queen of predecessor oh i can't wait i can't wait for shinby that's my girl right there that'll be fun um i hope there's a skin going along with her for those of us who have the fancy pack you know what i mean so we can show off that we're cooler than everybody else fancy yeah player count doesn't matter or player count matters guys look at fault big truce big truce i think it does matter if it's getting into you know where you have a honey you know what fault has had a two player 24 hour peak so uh you know what the things are looking up how okay fair so people log in all the time and almost every time i pull up steve fault on one of these chart trackers there's a player in game someone really has it like left open accidentally on like their old laptop or something like it's sitting in a corner uh let's move on to some of the questions uh i haven't looked at a lot of these but uh um let's get into them anyway uh mr ghost asks kind of weak question but which game do you feel does which rolls better i bring this up because once again pred has another update where they feel muriel is perfectly fine why do you feel one does the roll better than the other or if they are tied why for instance items or hero kits uh i think that's a question by the way mr that's not a weak question at all i think it's a hard question to answer for certain because the games are so different that the different roles play effective different so it's really hard to say i think which does which better oh i think pure 100 percent muriel and overprime does everything better than muriel and per yeah that so 100 but decker enough i think predecessor does everything better than overprime with the exception of her stumble if we keep it just to the question of roles right i do think this is the one thing i do and hate that we have to say this but given what we were just talking about with player count i don't want it to sound like we're bashing one over another like it's just to us different but i would immediately go to the carry role i think that the one one game does the carry role way better than the other and i think overprime does a better job with their carries than predecessor does currently um granted they have you know obviously different champions and so that has a play into it um but with the champions that are available i think that it's more fun to play carry and overprime than it is in predecessor for me that that's the first one that jumped off to me and as far as roles if we just stick to the role and not go into champion specifics i think overprime does a much better job with solo lane than predecessor because predecessor just feels very lonely is ineffective throughout uh vast majority of the match feels lonely until it's not lonely and then you hate it because you're not alone anymore and i think predecessor is way better mid lane balance than overprime overprime has like the fey is just stupidly but so much stronger than any other mage you could play in the mid lane like i will do well against the fey in the mid lane sometimes but that's player skill and not it's definitely not a champion because the fey and and you put the fey in somebody's hands and you put like i don't know how it's in somebody's hands they're going to win with the fey they're hard with the fey more than they will with how it's like overprime really needs to take a look at the red lane balancing but oh that's a that it's a really good question rough one to answer i think in terms of the just roles as roles it's a lot harder to define because the games are not the same in terms of their speed and their their cohesion of what needs to be done right so it's a very difficult thing aside from just pure this lane in the first five minutes feels better because of x right like once you get into like grander just as a whole of her the game it's a lot harder to really specify one way or the other it's also kind of easy to lean towards overprime say saying the overprime does the better because they just have more heroes so you have more options there for each role so mm-hmm i don't know that's a that's a really good question though very hard to answer but i that yeah i tried to answer it these guys gave you kind of softball answers another one from mr ghost another question i've noticed every time i've watched y'all stream pred you are a seldom having anything i call fun usually very tilted very quickly what about pred do you find so tilting versus overprime and why does it seem like all the people enjoying it have stock home for instance basically every stream i've ever tuned into from people that say they love the game and have a ton of fun they're usually stone faced their entire stream i think again i think it comes down to the differences between the two games overprime you're allowed to just do crazy shit pred assessor you have to be focused and be playing 100 the entire game so i think people i don't think people aren't having fun they're just a lot more focused and people have fun in different ways like i have fun by taking aurora in overprime into the jungle even though i fail hard i still think it's hilarious and fun whereas i have fun by taking aurora into the jungle and overprime and even though i don't fail hard it's hilarious but i completely agree i think if i was going to generalize it overprime has more room for fun to exist and still feel like you're playing the game at a competent level whereas predecessor feels like if you're trying to have fun you're missing out on something else and that's going to negatively affect your team right if i'm having fun just memeing in the enemy's jungle just stealing all the jungle cams ganking the solo lane and i don't get fangtooth because of it then my team is going to going to lose that pred game if i'm doing the same thing in overprime but we lose a prime spirit yeah it'll be fine like it's not that big a deal and there's something to be said there that maybe that shouldn't be the case in both games but that is how it is right now and i think like i said it provides a lot more room for fun to exist in overprime and the other thing too is because predecessor doesn't have a ranked queue every game is ranked yeah like you know what i mean they added the leader board and then also i think pred players are a little bit more serious overall than overprime players so it's uh i feel bad whenever i do some crazy shit or i play poorly while i'm playing pred so i get tilted a little easier because i feel like i'm not helping my team enough and i think that my team it's just probably it's just a psychological thing i just feel that my team is taking the game a hell of a lot more seriously than overprime where it's like yeah you fuck it we lost one let's move on to another you know and you stole my thunder just a little bit with that last point because that was what i was going to go into is i think that like so for example when we were doing pred yesterday i was like i wanted to try a revenant off lane and it was like there was like this immediate like uh should you really yeah you know where and in jelly was like yeah just fucking do it like what's you know whatever right but there's always when i'm playing pred it's like i'm i'm not i can't like i feel like i can't experiment as much or try something new because there's no other queue there's it's just like it's either this is serious or it's troll you know what i mean and whereas like with overprime like i can go into quick play and feel like you know it's just quick play like i should be able to try some off meta builds or some off meta champions or something like that and see if i can make it work whereas if you're going into ranked you should probably play whatever the better meta champion is in that role right and so i definitely think that that has a play on it and to the last point of like you know when you tune into streams there's there's two things i can think about for us we might not be having as much fun and we get tilted and all that stuff but i think for the other content creators who are out there it's a bit unfair streaming is hard uh making sure that your face is is always like you know really energetic and big and all like stuff like is is not i firmly disagree with you on this point listen okay well let me finish my point with you that streaming is hard but i disagree with you because streamers we know that do a good job of being entertaining playing literally anything else are the still stone faced in in predecessor okay listen we i'm just i i have let me finish my point i think that that streaming is difficult i think that there's a lot of streamers who are typically streaming to themselves a lot of times you know they have maybe three viewers and so therefore they're just in the groove of you know they went live they wanted opportunity you show up in their channel you haven't even chatted yet and they're just like this you know hard focus and concentrating on the game because that's what they have they don't have anything moving on their chat screen if they have a if you're a fairly bigger streamer and you have a chat that's moving your i think you're naturally going to be a little bit more animated and talking to your stream and interacting in that way so i think it's a lot it's it's not fair to to a lot of the streamers who are smaller streamers to say that they look stone faced while they might be and probably has a lot more to do with that they're just in the zone i know when i'm playing by myself and i don't have a camera turned on i'm not sitting here going like oh yeah you know i'm not making it a big production i'm probably sitting here stone faced as anybody else looking like i'm not having fun when i could be having a blast so it's it's a bit i think it's a catch 22 it's not necessarily a fair saving you're allowed to disagree jelly knees i still firmly point to the example of the streamers that we know that do well outside of predecessor in keeping things entertaining not being that way while playing predecessor maybe i i okay so this is the other thing like i've not been uh coy and saying that i do not have the most fun when i play predecessor it just i don't and i can't this is what's frustrating to me is i can't point to something and say this is why i don't have fun in pred there's nothing specifically that that is not as anti-fun about pred i just for whatever reason don't have as much fun when i'm playing it i have more fun in over prime than i do in pred i don't know what why i can't really quite put it down it's probably a plethora of reasons and i know we've talked about this before i don't know but i'm sure there's other people that disagree and have the thing but it is funny it does seem like you know even the guys who are super hardcore like oh pred is the best how can you not love pred and i'm like okay well let me watch you stream and see how much fun you're actually having and i don't know it maybe i'm weird yeah i mean it's sample size too like i i certainly haven't watched every fucking predecessor over five streamer out there maybe i you know i don't know oh it's it's kind of a funny question but uh it's just it seems like the um that predecessor and fault kind of had the same attitude around them where every game is just a little bit more serious than any than any game of over prime ever has ever been even a ranked game of over prime feels a little more casual than every game of uh predecessor and that could be a good or a bad thing depending on how you want to look at the games some people prefer that sort sort of thing some people prefer a bit more of a casual so riper adds on with the question do you think that's more related to the community that plays each game or more than the the way the games are designed i think it's both to be honest i think that the community for over prime has already like built itself as a faster pace a little bit more you know opportunity for some wackadoodle stuff to come through especially in quick play whereas i think that because there's only the one q like mangos is saying you really only have serious you know you don't really have experimentation or trying different things uh especially if you're not five stacked right if you're in solo and you wanted to try something new you might be you know tilting the other guys off their hat that you decided to try a new countless build because you know you thought it might be fun to do it worked in training mode or whatever i don't know i think it's both uh for sure i do think that the community for pred seems to be a lot more serious they definitely tend to be a bit more old school to uh in my in my observation of them the og pred or i'm sorry og paragon guys seem to be flocking a lot more to predecessor um good or bad i guess it does have to interpretation yep and i know you play with the chat off now but whenever i'm in pred i still have the chat on just to see how people are reacting not me it's no it well and i don't blame you because it's very rarely good chat like it there's very rarely like nice job you know like you know that kind of abuse i'll go play overprime on e-u servers anyway that's good uh amon kira amon kira also where do you think the balance between hero power and item power should be because in some games you have more of an item centered balance where a lot of spells basically just exist the scale off the items and other times you've got more of a hero focused balance where the items are more centered on utility i think that's a good explanation between the difference between predecessor and overprime for real predecessor i think is more item balance the more is overprime is a bit more hero balance yeah i mean i i completely agree yeah it's a it's a really hard question to answer though too it's like where between the two i don't i personally probably lean more towards you know having a balance around heroes and then having items that you know no wait sorry other way around i would rather have items be fairly neutral and have heroes that feel like they are impactful on their own regardless of item but items kind of enhance them a little bit more and make that what they already have inherently themselves more interesting or cool i'm i'm not a big fan of a lot of like you know over the top like you need to build this item every single time or you're trolling kind of thing and and when that feels like when you're balancing around items that's what happens versus when you're balancing around heroes you can you know queue their numbers down or you know or up or whatever and find more interesting ways to make that that champion still interesting regardless of the items that they're building we see that the outside of it some in overprime too where the items are just very uninteresting and overprime yeah yeah even the actives which you would think would be super cool like mutant pose probably one of the ones that is like oh that's a super fun thing to do but like what what other item is like really fun to press to buy and press like there's very few yeah they're pretty bland yeah whereas with pred it's all passives there is no active items really yeah they're cool passives yeah oh very much though i i mean well there's a lot of overlapping ones right but it's still yeah it's different um i'm stranger asked going forward what does predecessor need to do to double its average player base i think jillie has a good answer for this that's this a little bit already i mean so it's the answer i've been giving for weeks right is the other four categories of players very generally there are four categories of players right achievers socializers killers and the fourth one that i of course now i'm blanking on um but you need to appeal out to all of those categories you can't just appeal to one like i think predecessor right now basically only appeals to the killers right and it's there's not much for achievers there's not much for socializers there's not much for explorers that's the fourth category um and when you have those things it's a lot easier to breed and build a community around any of those four aspects right and comparatively to overprime overprime does have a lot of those things but they were badly implemented just to be forward about it badly implemented on the start and pushed those people that prefer those categories away from the game very early on and now has to spend the time building that back up for their game i think it's going to be very difficult for both of them because like i've said before it's the paragon player base that's already in place that's going to drive new players away or both games yeah i i completely agree to and to to be fair i also don't know if either to be fair to be fair i don't think either studios are overly concerned right now with increasing player base i think that what they're i think for the most part this now i'm not obviously there i'm not you know part of what their conversations are i'm sure they would be happy with more people and we as players would be happy that there's i think that they need to have players right but i don't think that they're overly concerned about increasing player base more so like maintaining the player base that have stuck around you know over the last month and a half to two months and trying to make sure that the game feels good and then when everything is in place that they want that's when they're going to hopefully now we don't know but hopefully you know increase marketing increase like you know influencers increase like all the things that you you can point to that will hopefully bring in more players but i do think and this is something we've talked about a lot in order for either of these games to survive they need to do something that's going to bring in a massive amount of new players that are not from the paragon days and not from the fault days or whatever they needed to really really reach something else but the game both of these games don't have enough to really give people enough to chew on as new players like the onboarding system is not great the matchmaking is not great the complexity of champions is not great there's a lot to to be left to desired but it's also a very very difficult thing to get right i mean even like the top mobas that we know and love still struggle with those same you know ideas so it's going to be difficult it's an uphill battle still i think you hit the nail in the head there it's i think they would be happy to double their player base but i don't think they really necessarily are looking to double their player base right now they just want to they've got their base they're going to they're going to keep iterating and working i think free to play that's when they're going to want to see an influx of new players full release free to play when they want to see that influx of players and hopefully the old heads won't push those new players out oh boy i think two things one man goose your chat frozen on stream two is that overprime talked about players but they talked about they didn't talk about wanting or needing more players they talked about wanting to stifle the leaving of players and those are two very different things yep and i think it's important that they are watching what is making players stop playing the game even if they're not trying to actively bring more people in through via mass marketing or anything like that also i love the before you eat your chicken make sure it laid eggs i think that's a great analogy for this right like don't don't cannibalize the players that you already have without making sure you have something else to bring to back it up with yep and that's actually that's a very good statement actually i didn't even notice that in chat but that's that's a really really good one you bunch of sixes good good comment bud bunch of sixes yeah uh let's see next question was from reaper do you think the games patch frequently enough and do you think the patches have enough in them whether that be content balance changes made of shifts bug fixes and which would you like to see more if given the choice uh i think for now with them still being in development i'm i'm fine with the frequency of the patches i think once they're a bit more established and have all of their systems in place i would like to see more frequent patches and more frequent shifts like um i don't mind that an overpowered hero suddenly becomes unplayable so that other heroes get a chance to shine because it it's changes things up it makes the game game feel fresh without actually adding anything new into the game um i said this about faults before it shut down that fault became so stagnant because there were no meta changes right even new characters didn't really change the meta all that much very often but they could have done other things to change the meta to make keep the game fresh and interesting for returning players and i think that the same thing applies to both overprime and predecessor i think both of them started out with these one patch a month uh ideas that they're going to just do one patch a month with the character drop and then not do anything in between unless it's urgent bug fixes not do anything in between until the next month and the next character drop and both of them have very quickly moved away from that and i think that's a good thing i think the two patch a month cadence is probably a good sweet spot for development time into patches versus community shifting things up for the community even if it's not a hero with every single patch having hero patch balance patch hero patch balance patch hero patch balance patch i think is a good cadence to have while they're still trying to quickly get a lot of these systems and a lot of characters into the game i was going to say the same thing i think like two patches maybe three in some cases but i think what i would like to see more is uh is like you know b patches so you have a big release patch with meta shifts champions added in blah blah blah but then have a reaction you know like a b patch for that big patch like okay you know what we noticed this item combination is way too broken we need to make an adjustment to that right now like are the the healthiness of our game is going to suffer for it um it's not something we want to see in the game i'm all for like you know like you guys said you know making a meta you know change and making things feel fresh and exciting but i i think that there needs to be more there needs to be more patches that adjust attack some of the things that make the game less desirable to be played by the majority of players um now if there's some weird interaction that is making people log in and play more even if it's not an intended interaction leave it the fuck alone yeah i am so tired of and i don't i'm not saying that either these studios have done this but this is just an out there thing i like stop looking for anti fun adjustments like if it's something that your players seem to be having fun with even if it's not intended leave it alone iterate around it maybe make some slight adjustments so that way it's not totally you know breaking the way that your game is meant to be played but like stop looking for things like oh fun detected and yank it out like that or find a substitute for it if it is truly that unintended that you're really against it you better be putting something in that can substitute that fun for people because they gotta find a way to keep people happy because at the end of the day that's what's going to keep your game alive right so could you imagine if over prime moved the red buff camp back just a little bit so that you couldn't jump and then dash over to the spirit people would be yes it made me so mad it would make me so mad you know what i would love for over prime to add in though double jump on kalari jesus christ she needs she needs it oh come on guys let's not get into this tonight uh foolish asks when do you think there's going to be on-boarding system for pred and what would make it good one for a new bad like me to learn from also what do you think of the of their mfr system for solo players it's gotten to the point where i don't even play serious anymore after 10 minutes of solo queue match after people start chatting or that they are playing you think they should add in-game voice chat a lot of different questions in that one question right there i don't know when they're going to add an on-boarding system um i would like to see them i think the players that are playing pred right now don't really need an on-boarding system that much i think when they go free to play i think they need to take their time with their on-boarding to make it as perfect as possible for when free to play comes out and the players that actually need that or on-boarding system can use it i don't think they need much of one right now um m m m r seems kind of weird uh wonky they're looking into that hopefully that'll get fixed and in-game voice chat i've always been a proponent of in-game voice chat as long as you can opt out of it they did say that in their planned roadmap for season one that a tutorial and solo versus a i a i are planned for season one which means by the end of next month we should be seeing those features in the game um now we've learned with overprime that that's not necessarily enough and so there's an amount that i think i would want to new player on-boarding to be as complex as possible and i don't mean that in terms of you need to just fire hose the information into these new players heads and then make them learn it right give them something easy to start this is how you move this is how you use abilities this is how you buy items put them into solo a i game right what they and then if they want to keep playing solo versus a i and then go into real games fine if they want to continue with a more and more complex tutorial that you've got a dozen tutorials that go great you now you've understood the basics now let's talk about minion wave management and boom then they can learn minion wave management and then after that one they can go into here's what rotation times look like right and and go in provide the information to your players right there there's a lot that these games are almost putting that onto creators to do for them right you're saying like great yeah all of these things exist you want to know how to wave management go on youtube type in how to wave manage in predecessor and find a creator that told you how to do it doesn't matter if they're right or wrong but find a creator that told you that told you how to do it right and i think that that is leaving way too much onus to creators now leave things like jumping from the red buff into prime spirit right that's a perfect creator thing to to leave out there for them right that's not something that i need to be like hold your hand on and be like now if you jump and use a movement ability no i don't need to do that for you as a developer right i need to get you up to speed with everybody else to put things as close to a fair playing field as possible even if it's optional for you to go and study at your own pace right but leave that for creators but don't make creators be the ones to explain core fundamentals of your game to other players and what they're doing it right like that's the other part yeah if they're doing it right the prime example i would give of this jungle camps and predecessor that the outer camps outer camps are worth more gold inner camps are worth more xp i think is what it is if a medkit didn't tell me that i still wouldn't know that i didn't know that until you just said so right now so there you go i don't remember which is which but the inners provide more of one and the outers provide more of another i believe it's gold and xp gold on outers xp on inners but nothing ever tells you that in great that they're still working on onboarding all that stuff but that's an important thing to put in a tutorial a comprehensive complex tutorial to tell your players and not put onto a content creator for them to learn at bare minimum something i will give fault the credit for even though it wasn't the best iteration of it was they made tutorial videos they didn't have a tutorial in their game but they as a company went out of their way to make videos explaining how things worked to try and be a stopgap for these to those tutorials and that goes a long way for your game if you have a place to send players to they don't want to watch the creator on youtube have a tab in your thing that's just the learn tab that says and then has 10 youtube videos that you made as a company explaining these things do more for them and don't push off don't give them the basics and then shove them off to somebody else to make it their problem to because you hit on all the things i would have said the onboarding is going to be the most difficult thing for either of these studios to be able to do um my advice would be to hire people that don't play your your game or have played a game like yours and put them in the test and and say start up a game and every time something doesn't work the way you expect it to or you're confused about something let us know and that way that way you can literally from the very beginning of opening the game you immediately know what all the pain points like if i were to boot up predecessor for my wife and have her just sit down in my chair and start trying to figure out how to play where does she get stuck why is she getting stuck what questions is she asking me and i'm having to try and explain and now swap that over to a dev and being like okay this is all the stuff that we had of all these testers who have never played a moba never played a third person moba didn't touch paragon back in the day hasn't touched smite maybe heard about some of these games would never actually play them themselves and what is it they're encountering because if you want a game that's going to be able to reach masses and bring in lots and lots of money to me that's what you're going to do need to do is you need to reach out to those guys who've never touched a game like yours before and how are they learning to play the game and if your system doesn't immediately make that like i would say like an rpg like jelly was kind of talking about like make it to where it feels like you're progressing as a player you know what i mean like the and now obviously to have it opt-outable for people who are not interested in that like you know i'm good i know how to play this game you know what i mean like because one of the biggest complaints we had to was like you know uh overprime allowing for people at you know level five now i think it's supposed to be level seven but it's not really in the game is level seven it's kind of like a weird bug going into rank but they don't even know what lane they're supposed to go to like what are you doing there's literally a thing pointing you how to get to your lane but they still go to the wrong lane i don't understand you can't account for dumb but you can do your best to try and like you know really make sure that the systems are onboarding people as as intelligently as possible this is the other part it's not going to be easy and it's going to take a lot of money and it's going to take a lot of time and i think that the studios that get it right will do it will have immediate more success than the one that does it half-assed so if if i'm in the ears of either of these devs i'm saying get this onboarding right put in extra time put in extra money make sure that anybody who decides to download your game is able to figure out within the first few hours of how to play the game and have fun because if they're playing the game but they're still not having fun and it's because they don't understand systems then you're then you're in trouble like it just i don't incentivize those onboarding methods don't just let it if i'm gonna if i'm gonna say give players 20 tutorials for instance with higher and higher complexity or higher and higher mechanical understanding to pull off that's all well and good but very few players if i just said here's 20 things do them at your own do them on your own time very few players are going to go through and do all 20 right the people that want to do all 20 are the ones that are going to do them all but if i go in there and say that for every four you complete you unlock a new character that incentivizes me way more to go through every single one even if i don't fully understand what it's trying to tell me but i get through the entire thing and at the end i can come out with three or four characters especially in the case of overprime right now where early character uh early character acquisition is very rough right that would be a massive improvement that incentivizes them to run through your tutorials because we know there are people that skip through overprimes and the hundred ren are you get for it is nothing so whatever and then you're able to get them into games with more heroes with more understanding with and it just improves the overall quality of life of your game drastically yep i would also go so far as to say that you need to have individual videos or or tutorials for the champions themselves like there needs to be an understanding of okay you want to play shin be fantastic here's what you know what she's good at this is the style that you would be playing her as these are the items that you would be wanting to build for her obviously there's still going to be some room for like you know player development in that and and making their own choices but like it really bothers me a lot of times when somebody's like oh that guy looks cool as shit i want to play that guy but i have no idea how to play it and they have to go into you know a game and get just basically pooped on in order to figure out hopefully how it works like i mean bellica is a great example right you might oh that's an ad carry because of how she looks no she's not an ad carry actually you know like stop building attack speed yeah you don't don't do that but like that's what i'm to me that's how i when i think about like a tutorial and when you think about how complex these games can be you really need to dumb down the earliest stages of it and make it to where it's as accessible again as possible for anyone who grabs your thing that they can immediately feel like they have an onus and understanding of it but um harrigan was a prime example of those kind of videos were said this is the hero these are their abilities this is what they work well with and here's some situations the league of legends is another one all right that does that tries to provide those opportunities to understand the character at a very quick two to three minute glance um predecessors been doing that a little bit with naboris videos but they're in very short form so i don't feel like you get enough context in those but it's definitely something that needs to be well done across the board here's my idea that that's going to come out of left field um maybe jen i might know what i'm talking about uh warcraft put in at one point proving grounds where you would go in and it was tailored to your class you had a specific scenario it was just waves of stuff would come in and it taught you to in order to progress and get your reward from proving grounds and you you had leaderboards and everything you had to use like i the the tank one is the one that i'm thinking of right now you had to be able to taunt maintain aggro uh minimize your damage using your cooldowns to the best of your ability use all of your abilities um damage i if i would love to see them do something like that for every lane in in the MOBA just waves and waves of minions and you you get a your score goes up and up the more last hits you get um the more damage you get on your 80 on on your opposing laner while getting those last hits some sort of scenario like that um where like maybe you've got a steal and and a and a murdoch against you and you're a bellica the more damage you get on the murdoch the the the higher your score is so to explain that mages are there to go past the front line and hit that back line stuff like that um i think that would be great and do leaderboards for it make it a rewarding thing for people to go in and just practice just practice your last hitting do a last heading leaderboard right and people will be in there all the time practicing their last inning yeah yeah i think that would be uh that'd be a great thing to add and i don't know that'd be probably pretty difficult like i said this is kind of an out of the out of the blue thing i see but that's the stuff i to me though like if someone hasn't thought about that i'm glad you just mentioned it because maybe one of oh geez maybe one of the devs heard that and be like you know what that's something we can add into the training or whatever like you know like let's make this into a last hitting machine because that there is something to be said and i for me it was league of legends like you not being able to last hit was like the biggest skill gap for so many in ranked play like it's such a huge opportunity so they a third party came up with a program for you to go online and be able to practice last hitting so you can get better uh and and it's like why isn't that just inherently in the game you'd know how important it is it's probably one of the biggest skill differences i'm a hundred percent on board with that and that's kind of again what i'm going back to is just like literally make it the dumbest thing you could do and and the world of warcraft example is is perfect because like oh man i really want to try death knight tanks i've never done that before i've only played dps how do i learn how to tank without going into you know a 5v5 dungeon and basically trolling my team who's there to get their gear because i don't know what i'm doing proving grounds was a great example of how to get better at it at a base level you still need to go in and learn you know in real world and that's fine that's what lower ranks are for that's what quick matches should be for or you know or ai matches i love that example that's a really really good one to me if i again if i'm one of these guys i'm like how can we implement that into the game asap as far as our because it's huge anyway i think it's a great idea that's why i said it you're you're so smart all right that's the last of the question so i think we should probably about start wrapping things up another long episode we've been having some long episodes but we've been getting a lot of info coming out of these guys so we got to just want to go into the details of all the items the fucking minutia the fucking minutia you guys want to talk about nerd stats and stuff like that nerd stats all right uh vikie jedi you got anything um to close out with and then also let everybody know where they could find you and all that um no nothing really new for me going on um you know i'll plug the discord because uh it's so much fun when we get people uh participating in there so for those of you who are not aware um mangus's old discord is now just the ftm discord um we're slowly but surely when me and jelly have time to add things uh iterating on it and trying to improve it a little bit but the first big one is the one we just got done with the segment is we added questions for ftm so if you would like to ask us a question and get our take on something um you know please jump in the discord and do so but people are also like you know talking in the chats about changes and about both games and it's for the most part pretty lacking in toxicity for the most not too many interactions lately that have been super toxic so if you're looking for something different where you can kind of just come in and chat and hang out with people uh i think the discord is uh is a really good place to do that um and then you can follow me on uh on youtube and on twitter and that's all i got those are my jillies uh yeah same twitch youtube uh follow ethereal lots of good stuff coming out from there recently and going forward as well and yeah i think that's about it for me what about you mangus uh just remind people once again veiled experts really fun game the closed closed uh beta i think it's gonna be the final closed beta is going to be in march i go to steam look for veiled experts sign up for it it's a good time if you like third-person shooters it's third person slash first person slash bomb defusal they got some tm stuff and it's a it's a cool it's a cool last game um look it up try it out i know the three of us will be playing the hell out of it uh raven raven as well raven and uh taboo will probably be in there but uh yeah i think that's going to close it out for this week appreciate everybody uh hanging out for the stream appreciate everybody that stuck around in the video but for now this is the for the minions crew signing off you guys