 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ Interview Show where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. Over the years where there has been reporting in the public media about UVM and events that have occurred on campus or a response to an incident on campus, occasionally there's a reference to the Prism Center. Well, I realized other than it's supposed to be a queer-based center, I really know nothing about them. But they do how they came into being, so we've invited an old friend to join us who just happens to be the director of the Prism Center. Welcome for, I can't believe a first time, this is Kate German, welcome. Thanks for having me. And again, I can't believe that we haven't had you on before. So before we start talking about the Prism Center and the work you're doing there, I want to talk about you because you've done a thing or two before you got to the Prism Center. Could you share a bit about your connection with Vermont and some of the other things that you have done? This is actually, it's cool because it all connects, it's a very full circle. So I grew up in Vermont and actually came to UVM as a student for two years. I know. I think Matthew Shepard's death was, I think it was my freshman year, although it's long enough ago, might have been my sophomore year. So that was very galvanizing for me. I was an activist in high school, I came to UVM wanting to still pursue that and the atmosphere here was really hostile at the time, late 90s. The world was very different, not just UVM, but Burlington was very different and I found it really hostile and I didn't end up staying here. And but I continued to do activism and build those skills. One of the things that happened while I was here was Jackie Weinstock got to teach her introduction to genders and sexualities class for the first time and I was in the class and that was amazing. And the final project that we did for that class turned into what is now the Vermont Pride Center. So Mike Bensel and I and another student in the class named Laura did these forums. I think that might have been the first time actually that we met Keith. That sounds right. Yeah. Those big statewide forums getting all that feedback about like what's possible here and it was really exciting and nothing like that existed and all this work went into it and it was awesome, but after two years at in college I decided this isn't the right place for me and I moved to New York City, finished my degree there. And when I came back, I got my first my first job out of college that was back in Vermont was at outright and I know and it was awesome outright shaped like so much about who I am now and the way that I work and just wanting to always be working in and with queer community. So eventually at outright, I became co-executive director and that was awesome because my co-director and I, Lou, we were the first youth age co-directors and that felt like a transformative moment and as I shared with you just prior to our starting taping, I was there standing next to David Landers who is another one of the outright founders with you and Lou as executive directors and I've looked at David and said, our kids grew up to take over the organization. It just filled my heart with so much joy. Okay, so after outright. After outright, some things happen. I moved to California for a decade. So that happened and then and then around the time that I was looking to come, thinking about what was next, thinking about maybe coming back. This job at UVM opened up and I was really fortunate to end up being offered the job and coming back and that was six years ago now. So what were you doing in California other than enjoying the warm weather? A lot of things I worked in reproductive health and equity, visiting clinics in Northern California and also did a lot of work in public health, including right before we left, I was working for UC Berkeley in the School of Public Health. Okay, that's such critical work right now that thank you for doing it. So let's talk about the Prism Center. Now my understanding is it came into being in 1999. Is that right? I think the 99-2000 school year. And what was the intent or what brought it into being? There were like a lot of things at UVM that happened in large part because of student protests. There was a lot of pressure on the administration at that time to start acknowledging that there were LGBT students here and even at that time really LGBT students. So the provost finally caved to that pressure and set aside some dollars, I think originally like $7,000 and said get a part-time person. And there were a few people who took on that role. Obviously the challenges were pretty immense and asking someone to do that maybe 15 hours a week was untenable. But there were some amazing people who held that role, including Paige Wadley Bailey. She's really who I think of as the founding director of the center and she really was a rabble rouser. And then when they finally, it took them a few years that they created a full-time position and Dot Brower had that position for many, many years and that's whose shoes I stepped into and they retired. So was the original intent just to create safe space for queer students or was it to take a more active role in creating a more inclusive campus culture? It was all of those things. So LGBT student services, which is now recognized as a part of the field. So a lot of schools, it's tricky to describe. I want to say a lot of schools have LGBT centers. When you look at the number of like colleges and universities, that's not true. There's not a lot, but there are a good number of us now who do these student services and are evolving. But in the late 90s, early 2000s, safe space, like literally four walls where students could come in and be themselves, take a breath, you know, power back up to go out into the world. That was a huge part of it. And then training and, you know, talking to people about allies and safe zones and kind of that evolution of making the campus a safer space was a big part of it as well. So how many staff are, is there for prison right now? Now we are three and a half full time professional staff, plus graduate assistants and graduate interns, undergraduate interns, undergraduate student workers. I actually don't know how big we are all told right now, but I would say off the top of my head, probably 15. I was gonna say, like any sort of social service entity on a college campus, you rely on interns. Absolutely. The students who need a work assignment, whatever. Okay, so what are the types of services that are provided by Prism Center? Or if I were a queer student at UVM, other than just liking to spend time with you, why, how would I connect with the Prism Center? Hopefully you would come to our office and really see what we're about. We've really evolved in the last few years. We just moved, physical space is actually still a big part of what we do. And one thing that's been transformative is that we moved out of our temporary space that we had for 20 years. We have a much, we've grown, we're much larger now. We're in a building called Living and Learning, which on our campus is really on the main pathway where students who live on campus are traveling. And we have all these lovely pride flags and we're up to eight or nine right now that hang over the balcony. And students can just, you know, see that and feel proud. So hopefully you come in and you hang out. We have two lounges with like couches and we have a closet where you can get gender affirming clothing. We have a printing area. We have all kinds of resources, including food security, because that's a big thing that we see right now. And if you don't want to connect that way, then you're on our Instagram page and in our social media. OK, you mentioned food insecurity. What about housing? So housing is a big issue. First, there's just the scarcity of housing for students. You're only guaranteed to live on campus your first two years. And so that's a big challenge. The affordability of it is a big challenge. But the other thing that we work on a lot is challenges students are facing with res life. So especially for trans and gender diverse students finding a roommate that is safe and comfortable in a room. That's, for example, near bathrooms that our facilities that you feel comfortable using. Those are still huge challenges, especially in some of our oldest buildings. OK, does the Prism Center go out and do training in the dorms like RA trainings? Or if it looks as though there are issues within a specific dorm going in and working with the residents? We do. I don't think of it as training, actually, because often we get requests to our office where people say, can you come in and train us? And it really sets up this like, you'll come in, you'll tell us all the right things to say we'll be trained and we'll be done. And we really want to move away from that. So we think about more about community engagement. And of course, so we go out and meet all the RA's and make sure they know that we're here so that they can tell everybody else. And when there are conflicts, yeah, sometimes we consult and we help other offices be their best for queer and trans students. But I try not to think of it as training. OK, the training is because I'm one of those old people who needs needs to start getting rid of some of my language and replace it with something that's friendlier. So speaking of a friendlier, how does the UVM administration treat or how does it interact with the Prism Center? Are you asked to come in and collaborate on making culture change on the on within the UVM community? I think we go about making culture change more by influence and more with our our peer offices. I think for a lot of offices, we're a respected partner because we show up for them. The structures for influencing the administration are different than they have been in the last few years. So we are now a part of the diversity, equity and inclusion division. And we're in there with our other there for what UVM calls identity centers. So the Prism Center, the Mosaic Center for Students of Color, the Interfaith Center and the Women and Gender Equity Center. Together with the with our vice provost office, we are the division. And often we collaborate and those ideas bubble up and our vice provost takes those to the senior leadership team. OK, that doesn't sound like a bad model. Are you all housed in the same building or are you on separate locations around the campus? We're all over a campus. Spaces put their rail on any campus, but we're very fortunate to have moved to where we are. And we happen to be in the same building as Mosaic and the other centers have very distinct locations. We all have very the each location, I think matches the personality of the center. Oh, OK, that that means I have to come visit sometimes soon and just so. What are the activities on campus for which Prism would either be a sponsor or an active. Participant in developing the event. Yeah, this is such an interesting moment because we still. I hate describing it as all things to all people, but. You know, during prospective student visit days in the spring, we might see students who still say like where I'm from. I'm the only one like I don't know any other queer people or I've never met another queer person in real life. And they're like so excited to come to college. And and have that unlock for them and we meet students or like I've been out since I was four. And like I just I'm going to come through here make some friends and you'll never see me again. And like and then everything in between and I think that's so awesome. So we try to do everything from affinity spaces, which are like peer social support. Not unlike outright Friday night group, a little less structured. We do a lot of just drop in, come hang out, meet your people for that sense of belonging that just helps students get through the rest of college. And we do events and we do I think probably our most famous event is rainbow graduation, which is exactly what it sounds like it's an enormous graduation celebration at the end of the year and it is. it's like all the joy that tears the happy tears and no glitter glitter is banned in our student center but you know rainbows and celebration and it's just amazing. I was to say that some of the public media reporting when i've seen that you know there has been an incident that has occurred on the UV and campus there are rainbow flags in the background and there's reference made to to prison so. I'm making the leap of faith that when there's something that impacts. The UVM community that you're there as a visible presence and also to support, you know the students or the people who have been impacted. Yeah, that's absolutely true. All right, so what is the vision for prism moving forward. Interesting question. I want us to continue to grow. We. So many things really. We talk as a team, we talk a lot about who needs us the most and who are we not reaching and I think there's so much room. All of the centers are evolving right now and I think there's so much more room for collaboration and to talk about the ways that people's identities intersect and. All of. You know the things people need that are not just not not just for their LGBT identity but also because they are a student of color or also because they are a person of faith and. There's so much more we could do there so much room to grow and I feel really excited about that. I also think. And I'm trying to convince everyone around me who maybe isn't seeing the same numbers about Gen Z, but like we need to get it together around gender identity and. Services and having a campus that's built less just for binary genders and a campus that it is easier to move through. You know, with a trans or non binary identity and and all of whatever that means for you, whether it's a name change or. You know facilities you need for housing or just being recognized in your field as an amazing scholar and not being marginalized so. It still feels like even though we have this really great foundation here and I think one of the beautiful things about working in the prism Center is that there's a foundation right we're not fighting every day for. Our existence, we get to do more and there's like no way to go but up. And as you were walking through that it reminded me of trying to create those statewide forums and the question was always, you know, looking at who's not here. Who have we not included and what is it that we're doing that keeps them away or gives them the message that they're not invited here. You talked about the collaboration with the other centers on campus, what about collaboration with the Community based organizations. Remove from UVM like other colleges outright Pride Center etc. Yeah, we do that as well it's where I would say we're rebuilding after coven you know a lot of those relationships fell apart as they did in a lot of places but. Locally Champlain College is is a really great partner and and has the closest proximity to us, but we've been trying to reach out more to other colleges around the state. You know, logistically there's a lot of challenges with that but. We want students to connect and hear all of those experiences and things same with partnering with the Pride Center we're really fortunate that they're here in Burlington. Outright here and we try to make sure students know that if there's a reason if you don't want to come to prism for whatever reason you have additional resources, you just have to go down the hill. Sometimes that's a hard sell but. Yeah, but at least down the hill is not the same as you need to go to Montpelier or you need to go to Browderboro it's there is something available if we're not the connection that you really need so. Is it your intention that. Prism is going to be led by you for a while. I know it's a dangerous question to ask the dangerous one to answer. This seems like such a wonderful fit for you is this is this a place that you're thinking I could be comfortable here for a while, and I know that personal growth career growth, etc. Hopefully doesn't take you back to California, but there may be something else, but does this feel comfortable for now. It certainly feels comfortable and I would say my plan is not to be here forever because not because i'm ready to move on, but because I think that that leadership transition is really vital to the work and I think, right, a student called me an elder the other day and I was like right like it took me a minute to get over that and they're not wrong. emerging elder maybe I don't know but like I think. I think actually there's a point at which there's too much of a gap and and the leader of an organization like this should be closer to the people being served and and sometimes that's that's not just about age but like yeah that's a big part of it. And I think there are other ways that as the university shifts and and other things become possible, other kinds of leadership become possible and I'm happy to get out of the way so that that can happen, just like it outright and other places like. Yeah, that's just how I think about leadership. The people coming to the Center should see themselves reflected back 100% and and the voice. The voice should be current with what the need is at that point in time, so I will give you the elder in training designation. And I want to thank you for the incredible work you're doing and thank you for spending this time with us. Oh, it's such a pleasure, thank you. And, and we'll be back. So, the website says, we provide a welcoming and restorative space for men to relax and leave the outside world behind. You have me already. We carry out this mission of sustainable community in several interconnected and interdependent ways. Warm hospitality camaraderie connection and community, learning without limits, healing touch, wicked good food, work camp and fellowship programs, agricultural and wildlife sustainability, locally produced products, sustainable community support, green living. Are you ready to book your reservation, because this is frog meadow bed and breakfast, a way sis for men and massage and new fame for month. I'm not far away from where you are now. So please welcome Dave and Scott to tell us about frog meadow and how it came into being. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you. So, why don't we start with, if you would be willing to share a little bit about what your lives were prior to frog meadow. How, how you found Vermont. And what was the vision in creating frog meadow. Well, I've lived here in New Fang since 1970. So I moved up with my family when I was 15 years old. And so that's how I found Vermont. I was from northern Vermont originally. So they had me late in life so it was retirement time for them they wanted to get out of Connecticut and into my mom was very much a kind of a hippie want to be she wanted to get back to the land and and raise animals and my siblings are all older than than me so they had already out of the house so the three of us came up here in 1970 they opened an antique shop in New Fang. And I finished high school here. So you have a long history in Vermont. Yes. So thanks to your parents, which means I married a townie. And what did you both do prior to frog meadow. Well, when I was young I was a chef in a restaurant I worked in the restaurant industry I got out of that. I was about 1980. And when got my EMT and became a ski patroller at Mount snow. And so I was ski patroller there and then as time went on I got into mountain biking and I developed I developed and started the mountain bike program at Mount snow in the mid 80s. Did that till the mid 90s. What else did I do I've done a lot of stuff. Well you fell into your ABC. I fell into a short gig where I was a sound man for network news. And did that through through what about 2003 or you did the Tallahassee recount the Concord crash among other things and then after 911 they said, take your pick Iraq or Afghanistan and then you said check please. I've never done any more zone stuff and I wasn't interested so. So yeah. So that was kind of was there anything I'm sure there's other things I've done Scott has a much more limited list. So, I'll let him go next. Well I just want to bring up after your sound man gig for NBC you went to massage therapy school and that was the genesis. Oh right meadow. There's that. Oh, okay. Well okay we'll talk a little bit about that later on but. Okay, so Scott you're up. My background is advertising and marketing I've worked at a runner number of ad agencies east coast west coast. And ultimately moved into the mail order side of the advertising and marketing world and ran a catalog business you remember catalogs before the internet a catalog business that sold audio visual and video production and from that segway into Frog Meadow with Dave. So we met while I was training for a triathlon was at Mount snow and I came up the month before the race to check out the course and I was quite familiar with Mount snow in the area I had a share in a gay ski house. In Jamaica Vermont for quite a number of years but I'd never been to Vermont in the summer so I came up Memorial Day weekend to check out the course. And there was Dave. Then we say the rest was history. We lived a long distance relationship for the first five years we were together with me and Manhattan and Dave up here in Vermont. And I'd be up here every Friday in time for dinner, leave Sunday after dinner and Dave would be down in Manhattan Tuesday Wednesday or Wednesday Thursday, putting 25,000 miles a year on our cars for five years. And one morning I woke up and I surprised Dave and I said I'm moving my life, and I'm moving my mail order business to Vermont. And we set about to build a place for ourselves because we never had a place for ourselves. We'd only had a suitcase with three days worth of clothing and that's where that was the life that we knew. So we set about building a place for ourselves, a special sanctuary kind of a place for us, our family and friends and that's what frog metal farm started as a sanctuary for us and our friends a place to be, and to be together it was a magical spot that we found and we built from scratch, a beautiful place on 63 acres. And business tanked when the internet happened. About 20 years ago, we were casting about for what to do. And Dave was wrapping up his gig with NBC, and we were spending time in Hawaii, and we rented a house from a fellow who was a massage therapist. And it turns out this fella didn't cook and when he found out that Dave was a chef in a previous life he said look guys, for every time you make me dinner I'll give you each a 90 minute massage. Well, we were there for three weeks and I think we had a massage each every other day. And that really started in many ways the genesis of Dave moving into the massage space because Dave said this is what I want to do next. He had an EMT and a ski patroller you had intimate knowledge of anatomy and physiology. And he went back and got an associates degree in massage. It was a very intensive program it was two semesters plus summer I believe 16 credits a semester. And part of the process was he had to write a business plan because most people in the massage world, end up either working in physical therapy or they work at a gym, or they have a 10 by 10 office downtown and that's the world that they know. And so they've put together a very prescient business plan that said he was going to create a bed and breakfast and massage Oasis for men and we've looked at this document several times over the last 20 years but it basically hits the nail on the head in terms of what we've created. And I want to back up a little bit to to your experience with advertising, because your website is phenomenal. You know, it is easy to make navigate. It gives a very clear access to this is frog meadow. And this is what we have to offer. Please come spend time with us. And I'd like you to talk some about. There are events, and there were some annual things that happen, and you've got some involvement with with the local LGBTQ plus community. Could you share some of that. So we do. We do some men's workshops around massage and yoga. We actually have just started doing them again after a 44 month cause due to coven we didn't feel like it was safe to put 15 guys in a small space until actually just this fall. We did a workshop in September and another one in October of 2023. It's the first time we have done a workshop since March of 2020. So they're very well received. And in terms of other events, you know, we're involved in some things we do our work camp. And we're, we're involved with some organizations, but right now that those those workshops are pretty much the focus of our, our, our events, if you will. I'm going to, I'm going to say not so in that a lot of what we will do as well in terms of annual events is we host to pride rides one in. We're both cyclists again, we host pride rides in June and September. Okay, about that. So we also because we have a large apple orchard. Hold on. Should we get that get to make that stop. We made a stop. Okay. You'll edit it back in. That's fine. So I asked the question again. Both look lovely, regardless of who sure is or is not in focus, but no, it was looking at your website and and going down through all of the different programs events that you were offering. I would say wealth of things that were available such as the yoga and massage that's already been referenced, but there was the work camp and there are other things you sponsored and you were just talking about, you know, the pride rides with so I come down and I get on my bike and I ride 100 miles. Right. In our case the pride rides we try to make them be as accessible as possible we do about a 40 mile ride. We get between a dozen to a dozen plus participants from all over the state and all over the country who seem to come in for this. And then we host a social mixer. Guys can come back to join us in the hot tub. Everybody brings food and drink to make it be enjoyable. And of course our swimming pond is available as well. So one of the things that we've done is try to involve the local community, and not just people from away who come here. So we do the pride ride pride rides as an event. We have our own apple orchard and so we host a apple picking and cider making event because we make our own sweet cider that we serve here and we also ferment our own hard cider. We've done an informal be event at the end of the year when we extract our honey. And then for a number of years we also hosted quarterly potluck dinners we haven't done that and we haven't done that in some time. But there's there seems to be always some kind of a way to bring together guys from the area for a social event, in addition to the workshops. And looking at the website, even if there is not an event that's being sponsored or planned. You're on 63 acres, you have orchards, you have hiking trails, you have a swimming pond, you have a hot tub. This is just a wonderful retreat to just come and relax. Well, yes, we say on our website, we have a whole list of activities that guys can do and then we say, or you can do absolutely nothing. Thank you very much. Okay, so the wicked good food. Dave, does that mean you're still cooking for the people who are staying there or. Yes, so. So we serve a hot breakfast every morning with local ingredients. You know, so it's either French toast or waffles or pancakes or omelets. You know, everything's sourced locally as much as possible. Made from scratch. I think, you know, a lot of folks are used to going to a bed and breakfast or and getting some packaged muffins and things like that and that's not what we do. We have good home cooking and the workshops, the food. Well, I sound like I'm blowing my own horn but the food's really good. And also homemade from scratch. I bake the bread I make the soup I make the stock for the soup. So everything's fresh and homemade and you know, I think that in everybody's busy worlds they don't get a lot of fresh homemade cooking anymore. Go ahead spoil me. I'm so and looking at one of the photographs on the website. You can actually cross country ski right at frog meta. I mean, most, most will choose snow shoeing because we don't groom the trails. So you have to be an experienced cross country skier to go out and kind of crash around the woods on your skis. But the snow shoeing is great. We are open through New Year's and since COVID we've been closed January, February, March and up until work camp and spring for our and our for us. I think that sounds low is well deserved. And we had talked briefly before we started taping that the massage is something that you offer to people who are lodging there are associated with the program, but there are times during the year that I might be able to become for a massage but I would need to really look at the website to see when those times are. So, yeah, so we're quite busy in July and August are is the height of our season and in those months. It's about 95 to 100% occupancy. And so it's, it's tough for someone outside to to book a massage sometimes because I'm so busy. What I liked it because Scott and I are both cyclists I what I like to say is try me on a rainy day. It's not great because, you know, guests want to go out and do things on a nice day. It's got my want to be on our bikes and on rainy days everybody kind of is hunkering down and sometimes I can do four or five massages a day and, and do it that way. So, yes. All right. So, in the time we have remaining. Is there something about frog meadow that we either haven't talked about yet I haven't asked about, or you want to be sure that people know. Well, I assume that a lot of guys have heard about rock river that the naked the gay naked swimming hole nearby so that's a big activity for a lot of our guests in the warm months. We're only four miles from rock river. So that's always been a big attraction. And what, and you've referenced Mount snow. And if I understand the geography correctly, you're 10 miles away from Brattleboro. We're 12 miles from Brattleboro. Okay, so you know what I would, what I would say is that while there's a wealth of things to do here, we're in a rural location many people think that rural locations tend to be less than progressive or backward or not welcoming. And we're extraordinarily blessed to have Wyndham County at our doorstep and Brattleboro 12 miles away. It's an extraordinarily welcoming, friendly gay and gay friendly area with an absolute ton of diversions in the visual and performing art space in the culinary art space. And for our guests who come here from away because we get a lot of guests who will hop in the car and drive 10 hours from Ohio. And they say my goodness this is something I never experienced before guys who come up from south of the Mason Dixon line they say my goodness I've never seen churches with rainbow flags let alone every church has a rainbow flag. And so we're in a very, very welcoming, very, very affirming location and that's part of what so many of our guests have found and so many of our guests have discovered the area and actually moved up here as full time people. And if I if I saw it correctly on the website, you have a monthly newsletter or newsletter that people could sign up for so they would be updated on this is what's happening at Frog Meadow these the events coming up. This is how I would like you to come spend time with us. Correct, we offer a free subscription to our newsletter which comes out every four to six weeks it lists upcoming workshops upcoming social gatherings and upcoming events here. It also highlights things in the region in terms of dining visual and performing arts shows and stuff like that there was a, there was a war hole show here recently. We connected to the book to the, the gals who run the New England Center for Circus Arts. And they do a number of performances as well. Yeah, they had a queer dance party recently didn't they did we were not we were response we were sponsored success so that that was fun. Thank you. Okay, with that. Thank you for spending this time with us. I hope this is only the first of at least an annual visit to say okay what's what's new at Frog Meadow. Wonderful, we'd love to have you on the thanks for the opportunity. All right. Good luck with the winter season. Thank you very much. Take care. Thank you for joining us and until next time remember resist.