 Welcome! Thanks for joining us for another episode of The Non-Profit Show. I have missed you and all of our wonderful viewers and fans. So glad to be back and so glad to have Julia Patrick in the hot seat today. Most of you know that every so often we do allow this master class opportunity. And so Julia and I take turns to share in a transference of knowledge that we have gained over our years of time served in the sector. So Julia, you are talking to us today about board diversity and you're going to answer the question of is it a real thing? So I'm excited to have you in this hot seat. Again, for those of you that may not have met us yet, Julia Patrick always serves as the co-host of The Non-Profit Show as well as the CEO of the American Non-Profit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, grateful to serve alongside you and to serve our community Julia as your co-host The Non-Profit Nerd. So, you know, here to get nerdy and today is going to be a great topic. 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So Roku, YouTube, Fire TV, Vimeo, all of the places you can find us. Absolutely. So Julia, board diversity, this is something, again, you serve, you're very civically engaged in your community. You served on many boards. So I have a feeling this is a topic that not only have you spearheaded among many of the tables, but you've really been a part of in so many ways. So thank you for opening up your trump of information to share this. Yeah. You know, I learned about board diversity in a different way. I was the youngest trustee of a large opera company in my youth in my, in my 30s, which was in my youth. Now that I am where I am, that was my youth. And I remember one of the very first board meetings where I had to have been voted in, right? I mean, it wasn't like I showed up and said, I'll, you know, hang out with you all. I remember that I had two other trustees that asked me who I brought to the meeting. And I was like, it was downtown, my community. And I was like, in the first one, I was like, I brought myself, you know, a smart Alec comment. And they're like, okay. And then the second one asked, Oh, who, who do you help? Who did you bring? And I realized that they thought I was somebody's like aid or, or assistant, right? Because I was young. I was a female. And I didn't fit the part of what we call then, and we still do now the male and pale board, right? And I was so dumbfounded and taken aback, because I didn't think that I could be part of that challenge, right? I mean, I knew about board diversity and I knew about board compositions, but I didn't, I had never actually been a part of it on the other side. And when I say the other side, I mean, I'm a very pale, blonde, you know, well to do looking white woman. So I am not part of the group of people that needs to be brought up. You know, so I mean, even if I could experience that, it really opened my eyes to how if I had been a woman, a person of color, somebody that spoke a different language, all these other things that we'll talk about how much harder it would have been. And so this is really why we want to talk about this. And we also want to mention, you know, that the big overall umbrella to this is that board composition and diversity goes well beyond gender and ethnicity. And we got to get beyond that. We need to look at some of these other things. So I appreciate you letting me have this conversation. I'm on a soapbox today, can you tell? I'm excited because you already hit the nail ahead. I think when it talks about diversity, it's not just, you know, age, it's not just ethnicity. There's so many other elements that really should be considered and discussed. And I hope you're going to share with us how we can talk about this if we aren't currently talking about it. So let's start really with what exactly is the scope of board diversity, Julia? So if you mentioned it's not just age, it's not just ethnicity, what does this entail? It's really interesting, first and foremost, it's a leadership issue. So I have worked with boards where literally, and this is the reason why I wanted to do this show now, not too long ago. And I had to wait because I had to cool off. And you can tell I'm even getting amped up talking about this. I was working with a board on Zoom. And I brought this up in a well to do white woman said, you know what? That's just being politically correct. And I was stopped in my tracks because I couldn't believe it. I could not believe. And I said, well, that's not the case. And this is why. And it was really interesting because I think we raised and discussed things that she had never thought of. But she couldn't get beyond this political expediency piece of it. And so I start here by saying the scope really has to start with your leadership. And if your leadership doesn't buy into this, then it's not going to be on the forefront of how your organization leads or serves this issue. And so you might have to, as an organization, really dig deep and say, okay, does this mean something to us? Why should it mean something to us? And what are we going to do about it? And it's not a one and done thing. It's not something that you just, you know, put on the agenda for the first meeting in February and like, okay, we're done. It is an ongoing thing for years and years and years. And so that's hopefully some of the tools that will give you today to help you figure that out. We see organizations that are successful with this, Jared, having committees. And a lot of times that might be called the nomination committee, you know, stuff like that. But they are then really focused in on this so that they keep pushing, you know, the concepts of why we need to be looking at our board composition. And so if you don't have leaders that are really willing and able to navigate this, you might want to form a committee that just adds this to their piece. I like that having that committee so that it's not, you know, driven by one person or a couple of executive leaders. It's really a committee that is made up by hopefully a diverse audience. Well, and you know, and that while hopefully that would be the case, but probably you are sitting on a board that doesn't have diversity. And that's why you need to do this, right? So chances are that entity might be having to educate themselves and lean in on this issue to really understand it as well. And then it's incumbent upon them to share with the group. And I'm all about, you know, being efficient during your meetings, using a board portal, you know, I'm a big fan of that. Using a consent agenda where you put a lot of this information in. But in this case, I think this should be something that's reported out during the meeting. You know, I think it's important enough to say we're not just going to bury it with the budget and the census, you know, reports and the data on our consent agenda. We're going to bring it up. We're going to talk about it. If we've gone over time, right, it's something that we really are committed in discussion. Yeah, it should be on the agenda. It really should and it should be part of it. And again, this is not a one and done thing. For most of us, this is something that we have to keep engaging and thinking about it because we started with it's not enough to think that it's a gender and ethnicity. It does impact other areas. So for example, I can't tell you the number of nonprofits that I work with that have a client service area in my community where Spanish is the predominant language and there is not one person on the board that can speak Spanish. Okay. I think that is absolutely shameful, shameful. You know, and I'm not even saying they have an understanding of the culture. I'm saying they don't have an understanding how to say, you know, hola y adios. I mean, they don't know how to say hello goodbye, right? It's a big problem. If you are serving a community that has a certain trait, you must, must, must find people that can understand that as opposed to just putting their views on it, right? It's not going to help you. No, that is interesting. And I'm wondering how you have seen organizations and leadership, as you say, it starts with leadership, engage and tap into their existing workforce, their staff, to perhaps, you know, identify some community champions or individuals to be considered in this nominating committee. Have you seen that successfully done? You know, it's really interesting. I'll tell you, when we talk about strategies for building board diversity, a lot of this, as many things in life are, they are pushed forward based on money, right? And so I have been at the table where boards have said or development to their development directors, you know, there's some very deep pockets in this, you know, ethnicity of this community. And we've got to get to them. Well, so that is for a lot of people has been a push, you know, that they've realized we need to get to this. And I have seen it more through the corporate side, right? That they need to be, I want to get in front of this major retailer that serves this market or this media outlet that speaks Spanish or Korean or, you know, whatever. I think that that's what gets pushed. And I think a lot of times that's when the light goes off. But yes, I think it's important to go back to your team and say, who do you know? What do you think, you know, would be a good fit? Because we don't do that. What we do, Jared, is we tend to sit around the table and say, well, who do you know, everybody? And so what happens, Jared, we just keep getting the same of us, right? You know, Julia, where, you know, when it's time for a term to end for a board member, then this individual is essentially asked to tap the shoulder of someone else that he, she or they know to say, I've identified you to take my place. And that is where I see, you know, the litmus test of you look like me, you talk like me, you vote like me, you drive like me. That just, you know, continues the pattern in the cycle of identifying the same people to serve on the board. So you and I have both heard it where we say, or we've heard, we don't know anyone. We don't know anyone that will help to bring a diversity or a diverse, you know, mindset or anything to the table. So they chalk it up to say, we've tried, but we don't, we don't know anyone. So, you know, that's the end. In my own community, I've heard, and I still hear, Oh, well, we don't have a strong African American community. We don't have a strong population. I mean, the data supports, we don't have enough people. Not true. Not true. And so there were some strategies that are very simple. First and foremost, I love what you just said, because that's very true. We have had a process and it's been lazy in our philanthropic community across this country to say, you're on your way out, who are you going to bring in to replace you? You are responsible for replacing yourself, right? That has been a very common practice versus saying, we need to look at this in a more holistic, you know, board composition matter. So when we manner, so when we do that, you're right, we just keep getting replacements of ourselves. Strategies for building board diversity first come about when you determine what and who you need. And I'm not talking tokens. We need a Black woman. You know, we need a disabled Asian. We need, you know, an LGBTQ member of our community that's under the age of 40. So we get two boxes ticked. No, wrong way to go about this. You need to look about a lot of things, which we'll go into. But one of the things that you need to do is understand where you're going to find these members of the community. I think it's really interesting the number of communities that have what I would call kind of like niche community groups. So I was working out of state with a group and it was this woman came up to me, young attorney. I was working with a bunch of attorneys and she led the Asian woman's attorneys league. I was like, wow, I never heard of that. She goes, oh, yeah, we're an international organization. You know, we are Asian women of all, you know, we're not just Korean or Japanese or Chinese of all South Pacific, all the way up through mainland China, Asian, you know, ethnicities backgrounds and we're attorneys. And I was like, okay, wow, this is great. And there are organizations like this. Do you have to hunt and pack for them? Yeah, absolutely. Another thing I really am fascinated by Jared is the number of organizations. And these are larger organizations that the HR people will know who their ethnic leaders are. And they might even have subset groups that are mentoring their teams that actually identify that leadership to help bring that voice up in their community. I would not have thought of that. Top of mind, what comes to me, Julia, and I'm curious if you've had success with this is looking at your community foundations, because typically your community foundations will have, you know, again, kind of broken out ethnic groups. But so I'm curious if you've had success in that and then double, double whammy question here. But don't we really want these individuals to be associated with our mission, like to have that affinity for our mission as well? Yeah, I think that's the thing when we talk about cultivation, you know, you need to look at somebody on the outside and make a judgment. And a lot of times you're going to make the incorrect judgment, by the way. But that's where we start. And then the next thing is absolutely we cannot just be checking off a box. And I will will offer up at the end of this program, and an assessment tool that you will give you for free. But yeah, I mean, it's really easy to check off a box and then say, next, or Oh, no, we don't have that. So you are absolutely right. Just because you find somebody that meets the physical criteria, they have to meet the emotional and intellectual criteria. And so that means you don't just go to the next meeting and say, Hey, everybody, I have an African American female accountant who we can get on the board, who's maybe never toured, who you've never talked to, who you've never entertained, who you've never shared, you know, mission vision and values with. Yeah, you're right. You've got to look at this and steward this relationship like you would steward a donor. And it's very interesting because we don't do that. We don't do that. And we constantly talk about and we throw this number out, Julia, about 1.8 million nonprofits are right throughout our nation. So that's 1.8 million nonprofits that are required to have a governing board by law, right? And so looking at this topic of board diversity is prevalent, prudent for 1.8 million nonprofits. Well, and think about it, Jared. This is what gives me the shivers. You know, most boards are going to have a minimum of, let's just say 10 people. So 1.8 million times 10. I can't even do the math. I mean, well, think about it. That's a heck of a lot of people that and you're going to have disparity. You're going to have some boards that are up to 25 or 30 and you're going to have other boards that are, you know, down to five or six. But I mean, think about it. We're talking about a multiplier effect of a good 11 to 12 million board members at minimum, at minimum in this country, working for free, working on mission, vision and values, volunteering their time, trying to do the best they can. And that are pretty, most often, under trained to do this type of work, right? So it is a huge, huge thing. And what happens is, and I should have said positions, board positions, because we get a lot of repeat offenders. We get people that are on multiple number of boards. And there are very few organizations in this country that have as a statement, you can't serve on any other board. There are a couple of more more trade or professional associations that will say to their their leading board, you have to, you know, take a leave of absence from all other boards. I'm seeing that more and more. Yeah, it's really interesting. So I mean, it's not for the faint of heart, because when we think about this, it's really, really important to understand that these these things have impacts, and they're real. And I want to touch base on that really briefly. We're seeing Jarrett, and I'm sure you are seeing this, there are more and more funding opportunities, grants, contracts, even contracts that are asking specifics about the board diversity. And some of them have their own forms, they have their own metrics, and organizations are being asked to report on this. These stakeholders and partners, they want to know and if you don't have this, if you can't demonstrate this, then you are going to lose out. And so it'll hit you in the pocket. If it's not morally and socially the right thing to do, it's going to financially be the right thing to do. So I'm curious, as you talk about, you know, there's many places that ask the question, you know, to gather the insight of your board diversity. I'm curious what you've seen done successfully to narrate on on your own the, you know, the impact of the board diversity, because I'm thinking, does this go on our 990? Is this something that Candid or GuideStar shares? Should we put it on our newsletter? What about our, sorry, our website? What about our annual report? Could you talk to us, Julia, about how we might take the initiative and be proactive about sharing our commitment as a board and where we might narrate that impact? I love this question because this is a fearful thing to talk about. You know, we don't, I don't care what your ethnicity is. You don't want to say the wrong thing. You don't want to appear to be less than open and yet you want to be honest and you might be curious. And it's just really hard. So I think that we mitigate that by saying, look, we've taken an assessment or we understand that we need these talent levels. We need these types of people. We're asking our community to help us, you know, and that goes from faith leaders who might see people in their own congregations that look alike or have a certain trait all the way to our educational system, to our political system, our corporate partners and our teams that we work with. I think it's okay to say, hey, everybody, we are serving a predominantly Vietnamese community and we don't have enough Vietnamese speaking people on our board. We're looking for some help. I think that's okay. And I think it's important, and we started off a conversation with this, to discuss openly with your board and your executive leadership of what it is you need and why it is you need this, right? And so to keep that moving forward and to keep that conversation, it is courageous and it is not easy. I'm a minority trustee of an organization. I'm the only Anglo person on a board and I know in my heart of hearts that I say one thing every board meeting that embarrasses me or mortifies my other trustees. I just know because I'm evolving and I'm trying to get better and I'm trying to learn, but still I'm sure that they look at me and are like, oh my God, Julia Patrick. And I am committed to that myself and those that work with me and I say blanket statement, please, if there's something that I could do differently and better, I give you permission, I invite you to just, these are my peers, these everyone, even here on the show as we are committed to doing better, you know, looking at that and I think that's important and I love and I'm sure that that board is very open to sharing with you. So you've made a couple of notes. I have two in regards to this board assessment that you're so generously providing any of you that wish to get your hands on this digital board composition assessment. So tell us what this entails Julia and why we might want to email you and ask for this document. So this is a PDF. You can print it off and distribute it at a board meeting or to an assessment group or nomination group or email it around, you put it up on your board portal. I mean, you can use it a lot of different ways. I was telling Jared before we got going that originally when we created this 10, 15 years ago, it was one page and it was pretty spaced apart, pretty wide as we say letting. And now, depending on the group that I work with, it's three pages. So board composition talks about things like region of where your board member lives. If your board member is all living within the same 10 blocks that might seem expedient and a great idea, but then that's a part of board diversity, right? If your board members are all speaking the same language, if they're all from the same socioeconomic group, if they all go to the same church or vote the same way, for the most part, that is going to be a factor that does not serve you well, right? So this board composition also talks about talent. So for example, do you have somebody that understands HR or engineering or law or accounting or the medical profession? Not that you're going to ask these leaders to perform those tasks because generally that's considered a conflict of interest and that's a whole other topic, but that they will be able to be thought leaders of this. So that for example, if you have a board member that is from the real estate sector and you need to find new space or expand or contract by land, whatever, you will have a voice of leadership on your board that can serve that. So do you see what I'm saying about this composition, Jared? It's a much broader brush. It's very broad and I love this and I myself am going to be emailing you to get my hands on this assessment and I know that there are additional resources on the American Nonprofit Academy website that talk about board diversity, provides a board assessment and these are additional resources to today's episode that can add value and perhaps even compliment the current conversations that you and your team are having. But as you said, Julia, this is not a one and done conversation. This is a conversation that needs to be continued. Absolutely and on this assessment, we have ways for you to not only figure out what it is that you need, but where you are in that journey. Are you under cultivation? Do you have no idea where to go about this? Do you have somebody that's going to be leaving the board? Do you have somebody that's going to be coming on the board? I mean there are a bunch of these things to look at. It's a multi-layer approach and I think it's a great way to go. I really do. We've been using it for a long time and then we also have a complimentary piece that you can give to which I will do in another episode that is like an internal assessment that you can give to each of your board members so that they can declare what it is they know. They might be, oh my gosh, yeah, French is my first language. Julia, thank you for being in the hot seat. Thank you for this transference of information and expertise. It is so very valuable and we are grateful for you to share this information with us today and I am glad to be back alongside with you as your co-host and continue to serve in this capacity for our greater community, all of those 1.8 million nonprofits and we could not do it without the continued support and investment and the belief from our sponsors. So again now's a great time to check them out. These companies exist for you and your mission and your community so they are phenomenal individuals, phenomenal leaders at these organizations so please do check them out and again today is Wednesday. I had to double check on my calendar but we've got two more days filled with topics. Of course Friday is our ask and answer. We dedicate that every Friday. That's right, hands up for our ask and answer episode. So again, so thrilled to have you in the hot seat Julia, so thrilled to have each and every one of you joining us today. Don't forget if you missed the episode or something you want to hear again you can find us online in many, many platforms. Thank you Julia, thanks to all of you who have joined us and I will sign off the way we have signed off all of their 450 plus plus episodes. Please stay well so you can continue to do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow.