 Well, good evening everyone welcome to so as It's great to see you My name is Casper Melville. I am a senior lecturer in the School of Arts at so as and I'm also the director of the Festival of ideas Of which this is the launch night the opening night, so Thank you for coming Welcome to you in the room and also those of you who are watching us on the live stream or watching it Recorded or wherever you're almost welcome Just a little word about the festival of ideas. We did a little booklet There's some of these out in the lobby although we've got rid of most of them designed by my very talented student Natasha Who's sitting just there in the blue brilliant work Natasha the festival ideas is a so as festival I was lucky enough to be given the job to direct it this year So I decided to put together loads of events of the kind that I would like to go to and invite the people that I Knew and really liked or didn't know yet But wanting to get to know and that's what's happening. There's 12 different events in addition to this one running for the next month We've got a DJ panel. We've got a panel on dance the importance of dance We've got a panel on decolonizing music education. We've got various workshops We've got a live podcast students who did my podcasting class last year made brilliant podcast So I asked them to do another episode some of whom are in the room as We speak so that'll be brilliant all about diasporic music in London So the theme of the of the festival is thinking through music So we're thinking about music, but we're also using music as a way to think and thinking about how music and dance You know can open up different ways of thinking about the world Delighted to have a wonderful group of people to talk about Jazz and jam sessions not only jazz, but jam sessions and improvisation So the format of tonight's event, which is called steam down times. So as This is not a jam session and we'll get to why this is not a jam session in a minute We'll be we're gonna talk for about 45 minutes and have a discussion about jam sessions Historically and now and what it might be like to be in the jam session and why And and improvisation then we'll have a break I would encourage you to go and get some of the wonderful food that we've got Which is provided by made-up kitchen this great hackney initiative out there in the lobby and also get yourself a drink And then and you're welcome to bring that food and drink back into here Please respect the carpets, you know throw out your trash. There are some bins out there But you're welcome to you know settle down bring food and drink in here Then there'll be music which will be run by Wayne Francis and Nancy who I'll introduce you to in a second Which will involve both members of the steam down collective from Deppford Part of the exciting new British jazz scene alongside so as musicians playing a range of instruments Some some of which are of the instruments that we teach at so as from Africa the Middle East and Asia like the Korra the Tabla we've got voice. We've got bass guitar. We've got all kinds of things. It's an experiment It's never happened before we'd be making and bringing music to you that no one has ever heard before Which I can't tell you how excited I am about that as well. So settle in This is the talking bit and you know We're a university and it's one of the things we still value is talking and ideas and argument alongside music and dance and all that Good stuff. So let me introduce you to my wonderful panel sitting immediately on my left is Emma Warren my good friend Emma Some of you already know Emma is a Is a writer like me She kind of started out as a music journalist and has gone on to become a kind of mentor and a teacher and and an Author has written two brilliant books very pertinent to this Panel one about the total refreshment center and one about steam down Finally enough. So Welcome Emma. It's great to see you on Emma's left is Wayne Francis who performs as an ANSI the ANSI the leader the The kind of prime mover behind steam down which by now has really established itself as one of the most important Collectives in British jazz and jazz inflected music He's a he's a teacher. He's a brilliant musician You'll see his work tonight and but we're gonna hear from him talking about his his experience with jam sessions and not jam sessions In just a second and then on his left We've got someone who I've wanted to meet for a long time and I took the opportunity to invite Kevin Legendre It's a British journalist Specializing in writing about jazz and British black music is the author of a really good book called don't stop the carnival Which is a history of black music in Britain? The one I've read is only volume one and I'm told that volume two is under construction almost as we speak We're taking a bit of time out from your writing schedule for now. So thank you for that Well exactly exactly so please welcome my panel Just before I a bit of housekeeping if there's a fire alarm, which I very much Hope there isn't leave by that entrance and walk up the stairs don't take the lift the toilets are at the very end of the Foyer down there. We're gonna be here in this building until 11 The music will stop sometime just after 10 But there's some time for kind of conviviality and to finish all the drinks at the bar and finish the food and not be Rushed out of the building. Okay, but we do need to be out of the building by 11 o'clock. Okay So let me start with this idea of a jam session Kevin I'm gonna come to you because you know just to give a sort of context. What what are we talking about when we talk about a jam session and What what's the role of jam sessions been in jazz? historically Suppose the easiest way to understand it is to say that it's a combination of formality and informality Do you have a structure designated space an idea a date a meeting call it what you will Where people come together But there's no Express idea of exactly what's gonna happen So the spontaneity the sense of possibility The sense of people doing something that they haven't done before in terms of making music the very real Possibility of musicians who haven't met before meeting and creating something again, which hasn't been Prescribed in any way it hasn't been planned out in advance. I think all of that is Kind of encoded in the word or the expression jam session this idea of okay We've got a space it might be a club or it might be outside of a club it might be It might be on the street It might be in a park It might be in a completely informal non-artistic space, but we can use that To pull our artistic ideas Artistic energies and resources to create something really incredible so if you if you're looking specifically throughout history you'll see that it became a kind of a Ironically a sort of formal products to actually have a record called a jam session featuring so-and-so Probably one of the most famous is sunny Rollins and Coleman Hawkins on stage together at one of these big festivals Maybe Newport. I can't remember exactly, but the idea of saying right, okay a jam session is something that can be marketed So the general public because we know what it is and especially if you have Titans of the music coming together to really renowned saxophonists or To really renowned pianists or two great guitarists or a bunch of musicians coming together and saying right, okay Let's see what happens and there are varying degrees of formality. It could be somebody calling a tune Here's a standard everybody knows Now's the time or everybody knows body and soul or whatever it may be Let's see what happens when we play that in the moment So I think in terms of jazz it's it's really really important To give people and the opportunity to express themselves and to maybe do something that they didn't think they were going to do before Possibility and it goes far beyond jazz. I mean we can maybe talk about that a bit more That's a really important thing. It's it's not confined to jazz It runs throughout black music and and it It kind of spills over into popular music as well I can give you some specific examples if you want a bit. Yeah, we've got the hip-hop cypher and other things like that But let's just stick on this issue of the kind of I mean historically one of the things about jazz taking jazz as an example There was a time when jazz was really the shorthand way of describing all popular music I mean in the 1920s or 1930s and Eric Eric Hopsporn in the book that he wrote he was a jazz critic For the new statesman and he wrote under the name Francis Weston, but he wrote this book I think in 1959 called the jazz scene, which is an interesting historical document But he talks about jam sessions as being a place which Where musicians were freed up from what they felt was an onerous Task of just reproducing the dance music of the day So they're all working musicians working in bands, you know for dances or you know in big concerts And then the jam session was a place where they could be freed from that kind of market Responsibility well the key term there would be after hours. Yeah So you've done your hours either in the studio or on the road and you've spent God knows how many days reading charts or being in a studio Doing a particular session under the direction of a producer or an arranger or whoever it might be and then when you get to a club You have typically a smaller club. That's the thing a smaller, you know much much more down at heel venue You have the opportunity to blow that's the thing and I think for big band era musicians swing musicians of the 20s and 30s that was really really vital in terms of Keeping their sanity together to a certain extent and also having the opportunity to develop new music because the very very obvious Historical example which comes out of that is Minton's Playhouse Which in the 40s in your yeah, which is largely Perceived to be the place where bebop is created because musicians had the chance Goes back to what I was saying before to experiment do something spontaneous work out new chord voicings Work out new melodies work out new rhythms and have other players coming into the pool I mean the other thing which is I think related to that which we probably don't take into account when we're thinking about the jam session is the kind of intellectual jam session that takes place in musicians flats as well in their personal living spaces where they come together and this Goes back to bebop as well and they work out ideas to theoretically what happens if you voice this chord a particular way What happens if you look at this harmony? And this is without needing to sell it to a producer Record or thinking about the you know, will it sell or anything like that? So there's an element of and this is this is outside of a performance base This this is famously Gill Evans is flat in New York with Miles Davis and other luminaries around him saying okay well You're looking at these intervals. How can we use this to get away from the format? That's already become a commonplace within big band music and swing. We need to create something else And then when people like Thelonious Monk come into the picture you've got Minson's etc It's that it's that blend of Suppose I want to put the the emphasis on people using their minds as well as just playing as well Yeah, so there's so there's a there's a kind of an academic thing Yeah, but it's almost a school or a university. I feel to it Informally, let's just think about what it might be like when we're sitting in a room here with with young musicians who are You know just about to Join in a jam session. What's it like? Tell us about what it was like for you I mean, I have you did you do this when you were a young musician? What was it? Do you remember the first one? Do you remember how you feel? What was the vibe like? I've been to quite a few jam sessions in my time. I Think it's a quite a few um first one that I went to Was in a place called the iron bar that doesn't exist in Labrote Grove was quite young or at least the first one that I can remember and Actually, I'm gonna go back first one was in school Actually, like the novel the first informal one and it's when I first started learning how to perform and play music They were a bunch of you know other younger people around my age And they would just you know get together off the school and just play just because and that's when I kind of Got introduced to improvisation and it was through that space. So I think for me That improvisation space is what made me fall in love with music essentially and So a jam session is very very much relates back to my earliest kind of memories of wanting to having a desire to do music and I think it's the freedom of being able to create without a script That got me. I was just like you're you can make it up You're allowed to make it up. I but more than that it was I could connect with music more that way because I I Could connect what I was feeling and Articulate that and there's a process of learning how to do that which is a separate thing But having the ability to speak Which I think is what improvisation is Having you having your own conversation if other musicians simultaneously whereas I think when you read off of a chart You are essentially reading somebody else's book, you know, and you're trying to interpret it as or somebody else's script You know like a translation rather than look like a script. I would say that's the same way I had to but is there a difference the way you mention it at school. I'm imagining perhaps people who are on the same level parallel You know Experimenting together, but then sometimes the jam session is a place where you know There are more established musicians and less established musicians as a kind of hierarchy that you're expected to go And have you been involved in those kind of things? Yes I have what I will say is when I was at school We were not on equal levels asking the piano player that essentially Opened up jazz for me was like 15 years old and could play giant steps I kid you not, which if anybody knows about jazz like jazz that's very hard to play And I was like, okay. I don't remember just liking it. I was like what you playing is that aren't playing giant steps I was like, how are you doing this? And I didn't know I have it had no idea because I didn't know anything about music theory at that point in time but I have been to jam sessions where there's been the hierarchy and I See it on two levels as being positive and negative negative is I think you can constantly have this inner pressure to be Good enough, you know or Your ego can take control and you can be like well I need to play all of this stuff to fit in or I need to play all of this stuff to be the best person there And it can get quite competitive on the other hand. You could argue that competition stretches people If it's done in a healthy way on but I again negative side of it can be putting down other musicians that are coming up in the wrong environment I think there's a many different sides of it I think the the the last positive is actually If you if musicians want to play with musicians of a similar level And it's about them stretching themselves Sometimes that hierarchy keeps that main keep help allows you to maintain that space I don't think it's done in the most productive way though. I think musicians can get better at communicating it and be like Keep on practicing and come back next time rather than like your crap like I think I think that needs to change There's a kind of way to do it There's a better way of doing it rather than it being and we'll get back to that when we talk about the naming of this event Actually Emma tell us about I mean I think of you as a kind of poet of space what your your work is so It's so poetic and potent and powerful about the kinds of spaces that Jams can happen and tell us tell us a bit about that in relation to you know London if you want to or you know The work that you've you've written in quite detail about the kinds of spaces What is it? What kinds of spaces do this sort of things happen in and why do they matter? Okay, well, I think that the jams form part of a substructure Which are really important in the ecosystem of the music and the culture and the way that everybody Experiences it the people we call musician and the people we call audience And that they're kind of hidden because it's it's a little bit out of view But I agree with both of you hugely important. I should also say I only know what I know I'm no expert in the broader subject of jazz But having been involved in what's been happening in London with you know Musicians who are trained in jazz, but who also bring other forms of music culture into it I can I can speak about that And I suppose the first thing really is just to recognize the generosity of people who make the jams happen It seems to be mostly in musicians who will make it happen who just decide okay I need somewhere for us to do our thing whoever their asses and You know musicians are it's a hard life anyway. They're working hard to make their music You know rent is so high particularly for the musicians that are younger now are struggling with like a whole myriad of different issues that weren't present previously And so I have a great deal of respect for the musicians who make it their business to make space and to bring together Their fellow musicians and to set an intention that works for them and their community You know, I saw that very clearly at steam down the way that when you came in there would be Things that people knew immediately without never having been there don't be a statue You know, you were encouraging people to move if you're gonna talk if you want to talk and everyone thank you Yes, yes Thank you go outside So there was a kind of clarity about what you were entering and you were inviting people in on your terms And you were telling people what your terms were and so I really recognize the generosity And when I was thinking about the kind of jams that exist at the moment I was thinking oh, this is so London. There are jams which have very specific intentions There's higher ground run by two women There is Tom they thems at Cypher jam for people who are trans or non-binary or genderqueer There's a whole range of other jams that are happening, you know imaginary millions Ori jam The steam down things that are still happening Plenty of other things which cater to a certain amount of people And I think it's just really heartening that these are happening on lots of different levels for people with very little expertise But plenty of ideas And and some areas which are into gen intergenerational as well So I think it's really good for like sometimes to have things just for a community of interest or a community of experience I think it's also really good to have as you're saying and as you're describing as well in the histories of jazz To have places where people can share Expertise as well and the jam strikes me as a good place for that to happen Thank you Kevin What's a cutting contest I've heard about it in relation to jams, but I've never been quite sure What what do they mean when they say a cutting contest? It's basically one musician against another to see who can cut the other one who can play better Who can I suppose very importantly gain the approval of the crowd as well and fellow musicians. So when you have two musicians Coming up against each other Maybe in a jam with with a rhythm section And if you cut the other musician then you basically get the better of them because you played a better solo It's almost like you can get a higher response on the clappometer But it's it's that idea of competition pure and simple And it's something which to say it runs right through black diaspora and culture It's very very prevalent in blues Who's gonna get up and cut another musician and it obviously goes into the freestyle and the battle in hip-hop as well And historically I mean it's an interesting thing because typically when we talk about cutting contests It always seems to come down to saxophonist. Yeah, it's one. There you go Let's do young against common Hawkins or Rollins and train or you know, it's like standard tropes, but Do we okay, do we have any Betty Carter fans in the audience? Do you guys know who Betty Carter was? Yeah, an amazing jazz singer So Betty Carter and this is very important was one of the few Vocalists and one of the few female musicians who could cut a male musician She'd get up on stage and battle with a saxophonist and just by using these incredible scat technique that she had she could cut A male musician, so it was quite a macho Competitive the most. Oh, it's it's purely competition. Yeah, it is about it could be a little bit vicious It's last man standing, you know, it's like that was a woman. Yeah Or yeah, if you're going up against Betty, then you know, it's gonna be last woman standing But but yeah, if you if you take on another musician in the heat of the moment, it's a battle When let me let me ask you about the difference in some ways between the kind of jam sessions We've just been talking about and the kind of things that you're doing now It strikes me that in that older model People are drawing from standards. They're drawing from a format They'll they'll call a tune. I mean how the sociologist Howard Beko was a pit jazz pianist wrote a book called Do You Know which is all about the hidden knowledge that jazz musicians carry around and how that is deployed in any given situation But you know, I was at steam down not so long ago and you weren't there weren't stand You weren't playing standards There wasn't this sense of people coming in and joining in on the basic head and then Improvising it was something quite different is is there something different going on in this new flowering of let's call it UK jazz Although it mixes so many other kinds of music Is that deliberate and is that different from, you know, the standard jam session that we've just been talking about well Many layers to that question one I would say What we do at SD weekly taps into the wider diaspora of music of Afro music I would say and I think that is pretty unique to London because You know within the project like Lorenz sitting up there is like from Uganda Shontes from Jamaica Um, et cetera, et cetera, we have like, you know, after not zoos like from Nigeria and we will Actively like tap into those bases and those cultural references Which is something that Afro Americans didn't have that was something that they were caught off from through slavery at that point in time we have the privilege is kind of like migrants and first generation in in Britain to draw from that Culture as well as kind of tap into what's happening here so I would say that it it as a musician it Makes me think about how do I explore all of those spaces because some of those spaces or what I would have heard like Music that my parent was playing parents were playing or I'll be going out hanging up my friends And I'll be hearing this music and all of these different spaces That would have influenced me as a musician that weren't solely within jazz And I think the the space with SD weekly is all about Opening up being open to all of those spaces and and I think jazz for me personally was always about the freedom of expression As I said before so the space is set up to allow those different threads to find the space to marry essentially musically That's that's that's is it the case then that that the musicians that are involving themselves in what you're doing They're not carrying around a series of kind of models derived just from a jazz training or jazz standards But there are a set of kind of Understandings about where the music might go which have been patterned by what's happened before or the kind of music that they know Yes, I would say a lot of it comes down to lived experience So I would argue that any person that's lived in London that probably lives in southeast London It's been around like Beckham and they'd like walk down the road and be like okay cool I heard Fuji music when I went to get my vegetables then I heard Afro beat Then there's like the going across the Caribbean spot. They're always like like blazing out like a bashman or or double or something so It's very easy for those musical influences to be around anybody that walks around these spaces So it's very it's quite natural to explore a lot of those spaces I would say it I probably would say it's more natural to do that than to stay within the Sully within the jazz tradition, which is something which is more taught and learned and becomes either a professional practice or an educational You learn at university. Yeah in our current time. Definitely. I would say that's where it's placed That's where I learned a lot of you know jazz formally, but I would say with the generations before they learned it from the record There wasn't any sort of formal trainings when I speak to some of the musicians that you know 20 30 years my senior they're like well be learned this from records We would like have a record play and we'd wear out the record like I need to get another vinyl because I listen to this so many times to transcribe the solo right so And I don't think that changes. I think you've done that as well without a finals We're out an MP3 Well the button might just be like okay, I need to get a new MP3 player, but I'm a story And we're on on the spaces where these things happen I mean there's there's something temporary and vulnerable about these spaces But which appears to be part of their character as well But in a way there's a tension between wanting them not to be Commodified, you know, you don't want a club which is called you know jam central and they're you know on the one hand on the other hand They really are vulnerable to Judification noise abatement and those kind of things how how do you think about that? What how does what do we need? I mean all space is vulnerable, isn't it? It's not just these like temporary ones everywhere is vulnerable everywhere seems to be steam-rollered and I actually feel very strongly that we need better language to talk about What I would call antisocial neighbors How is it possible that one person in one flat has more of a right? To dictate the sonic environment than 300 people in a room or 20 people in a room Why is one more important than the mass and I feel like we need better language We need to be able to call Neighbours antisocial because complaining about music is literally the most antisocial thing you can do As bows for neighbors. I also think we need but it's true We don't think about them like that, but especially when they moved into the area next door to the place. That's why they came and It's definitely not it's not just about space. It's also about control and power So I went to Detroit a city which is still semi derelict in many ways And they have a problem with neighbors complaining about noise much the city is still empty And yet people still move next to places where there is music Where there is culture where people are having joyful experiences and they complain about it So I feel like we need to kind of turn our attention towards those people and stop them feeling like they can And also like why is there not an equation of like do you not need five neighbors to complain before you go down and shut down The sound why is it just one? I find it very very hard to understand how we've got into this Situation and I feel like we need to do a bit of rethinking about it. So yes, the places are under threat Can I add something to that? I mean that's that's a really interesting point. It's just it's brought to mind an incident that occurred probably about Seven or eight years ago maybe longer. I can't remember but it was in Notting Hill It was one of the small parks near the carnival route. I Can't remember exactly what the space was but it was it's very important because a late great Black British musician called Ray Carlos who died a few months ago. Sadly saxophonist. So he was playing with a group of raster drummers and they were making a really beautiful noise. It was it was just perfect and Some neighbors complained and the police arrived within Maybe half an hour or something like that and shut them down and I was observing the whole thing and I thought to myself The rank hypocrisy of this situation is really quite amazing to think that This is part and parcel of what Notting Hill as an area is If you take the culture out of Notting Hill It ceases to be Notting Hill But most importantly especially for me as somebody of West Indian heritage That's really our history which is being shut down at that moment at that point in time And I just thought to myself well this was the scene of race riots in the 50s because it wasn't safe for black people to be in the streets and Now decades later when black people are in the streets making music. It's still not safe for them to be there So I think the political ramifications of that are really serious and it shows essentially That even at this point in time where we're supposedly more advanced There's sort of gross misunderstanding of what culture is and how it underpins a community and the value for it Yeah, yeah, and it underpins, you know The life which is has led to Notting Hill being an attractive place to be and yet a few months after that They were saying Europe's biggest street party brings in so many millions to this country in terms of so What do you want? You want the economic benefits of culture yet? You won't recognize the humanity of culture and you won't allow the humanity that underpins culture to survive And it reminds me that there are elements in a way that this has become automated even I was interviewing Lloyd Coxon about sound systems And he was saying I mean traditionally sound systems had trouble finding places to play But one of the places they could play were municipal buildings town halls church halls And he told me they've been put putting these noise limiters on the walls Which cut off the power once it goes above a certain decibels and there's no one there Explaining that actually this may go high in volume because it's meant to because it's meant to but it's a beautiful sound And it's the sound of the city. It's how it's the heartbeat of the city When it strikes me that comparative to the cutting contests and the slightly macho elements which were there in the old School, you know amongst professional working musicians, you know hard scrabble life, whatever That doesn't seem to be the character of what I've seen of the London jazz scene I mean just one example. I go sometimes to straight pocket, which is at Brickerton Jam Which is a jam session. You know, it's very diverse, you know There are younger players coming in trying to play and and each time I've been there Sheila Morris Gray has been there the great trumpet player who plays in coca-roco and she's got an established career But she's so Kind and careful about how she interacts in that space that she doesn't play that much in many ways Because she's she's she's generous. She doesn't want to cut anyone. She wants to leave space open for some of the younger musicians to step in So there seems to be a real sense of kindness and care and steam down very much has got that as well as that How does that come about and is that is that true? Is that mischaracterization of no? I think that definitely does exist now I I call myself a middle child within this continuum because I when I first started going to jam sessions, there was a lot of like the cutting and all of this kind of stuff and Then I kind of saw a generation that was like just under me Like a couple years difference and I was just a different kind of attitude that came around and I think From what I gather a lot of that comes down to tomorrow's warriors and the space Just being like come and play come and play keep on coming to play and in a time where it's You know and saxophones not a cheap instrument You know I was working if a saxophone player the other day. He was like, oh, yeah, the saxophone I'm using came from like Gary a Gary runs to where his worry is so it's like If if so few of us have access to you know instruments or have you know to prove a leg to be able to play live Instruments, which isn't that easy really in our city. It's way easier for me to be like Yeah, I'm gonna go and like logic and like produce some beats and you know, like write some bars or whatever That's so to do this side of things. I think it needs encouragement For their for live instruments to kind of survive in a real cultural way for the city for the musicians for the artists and I think that Encouragement actually aids that and I think a lot of those musicians are like Well, if nobody encouraged me I might not be doing this anymore I think I mean we need to take a moment just to acknowledge tomorrow's warriors Many of you will know tomorrow's warriors some of you don't an incredible Gary Crosby and Janine irons for 30 years. They've been running this organization Which has been dedicated to diversifying jazz to giving people who wouldn't otherwise get a chance to get access to instruments or really high quality training with a Pretty simple idea in a way Don't charge for lessons free free lessons. You've got a practice. They're quite, you know, the teachers can be quite Intimidating I've understood sometimes or you've got to put the work in but all welcome And they've created this kind of extended web of family because it's hard to find I mean I found myself writing an article about UK jazz and having named all of the people I thought were really hot in it I then realized every single one of them have been through the tomorrow's warriors Training program at some point many of whom like yourself go back And give back as teachers, right? So there's a kind of self-replicating. It's like a university but a university of Yeah, in terms of rise by love. Yeah, exactly. It's very Caring and generous for the culture and it's something that's needed really I would say having that space I myself actually didn't go through it. I just ended up teaching there And I was I that's what my kind of personal contribution was to the space, but I've always seen What it's done, you know, and that was for me the reason why I wanted to teach there when Gary asked he was like, oh, yeah, can you do this? I was like, yeah I'm there. I Just want to you were talking about straight pocket at pure vinyl in Brixton And I just want to make the point that Claudia Wilson who runs pure vinyl Did a very generous thing because she recognized that there were some of the younger musicians who just weren't feeling confident to join the Jam so she made a junior jam So straight pocket was happening on a Monday and then on Fridays. She just invite the younger ones to come in and just like a pre-jam jam And I really appreciate that I appreciate the fact that she gave her space and pushed the push everything aside and just made it happen in an extremely understated way And and that is extremely encouraging and when I think about the word encourage I think about the fact that it contains the word courage. You know, these are strong things to do It's not just encouragement isn't just like a gentle thing It's a very strong very powerful thing that requires the courage which sits which sits in the middle of the world And I think Claudia just has that in like, you know, endless amounts of that What can we do to to maintain this? What's going on? How can we support it? What do we need? How can we lobby? What do we how can we get across the point that Kevin was making about, you know Recognizing the value of culture, which is a key question. Well, I think Slightly before the answer, I would just say I value these places as places for listening For active listening for the kind of the human right of listening to each other and Creating environments where musicians can listen to each other and where audiences, you know The people we call audience can listen and listening is such an important skill And so again, I think that's another aspect of why these places are really valuable They're kind of incubators for listening and for kind of Inculturation so that you can kind of yeah, it's schooling in many ways How do we protect them? Well, first of all, like we're extremely grateful to the people that do it because I think even just telling them We're grateful might help them continue for a bit longer One of the things that I've my work is about is about documenting culture So I think telling the stories of this space can help us advocate for them to say that they're precious and important And that has that has been turned into a story that can also help people advocate for their spaces and to keep going And I suppose there is also a place for hope isn't there? and For hope and for just doing it and for supporting with the money that we can if we can These places and environments as well Kevin looking at it kind of With big picture it feels to me I mean, I'm you know, I don't know you and I perhaps of a similar generation that there was a shift that happened In the 2010s, maybe I'm not quite sure I started seeing it even before I went to clubs or anything I'd noticed more people walking around London with instruments and there seemed to be this I don't know if we call it a return obviously London in the 50s 60 70s was a much more lively live music before this culture took off Is that does that does that bring true to you more or less? Yeah, I think the The rise particularly within black popular culture or a return of instrumentalists and people who are Able to bridge the gap between Let's say hip-hop culture beat making and live playing. It's hugely hugely important So suppose the influence of somebody like Robert Glasper You know who can speak to all these different generations and He's playing the piano and he's a he's a badass improviser. Yeah, something like that. I remember that being very impactful, but I think I Mean it's tomorrow's warriors again to a large extent like hammering home that message for decades about the importance of playing an instrument and also conveying the The huge cultural currency of that as well. It's not just about playing the instrument It's also about upholding this legacy Which goes all the way back to the Caribbean? You know when you think about these second third generation black Britons saxophonist horn players pianist or whatever They're in the lineage of the scatter lights. They're in the lineage of Ernest Wranglin They're in the lineage of Monte Alexander or but there's an element an interesting element of discipline in that As well isn't it because a lot of them came through alpha school. They would drill. They had to work hard That's the thing. That's the thing that runs all the way through. It's You know as McCoy Tynes said it's as serious as your life If you're if you're playing this music, then you're making a commitment and the key thing is to Just to hammer that message home once people understand that then I think you really are making a difference And one of the things which I really appreciate and is so different and interesting about going to these sessions Like going to steam down is that this relationship between the players and the audience is different because the audience is often made up of Musicians as well that it feels like a space of sharing and not as judgment or of commodification You know, I've bought paid my ticket and I want to be entertained. There is you know, it's good like I was it's almost like going Get to drama school and you're going to see a production of one of your friends and there's a sense of you Wanting it to succeed when I kind of wanted to give you the last word on this because when we were planning this event I remember saying, you know, let's do a jam session and we'd now got an event called This is not a jam session and instead you wanted me to you wanted to call it a collective spontaneous improvisation CSI in fact Just so we're just about to hear is there a crime that's gonna be Not not crimes against music, I would hope not no, but just just give me your tech You know, you've just met musicians some for the first time. You had a little talk with them. What are you gonna do which which Sort of articulates this not as a jam session per se We're not gonna come and play autumn leaves or you know, jazz standards. What are you gonna do? Here on this stage in a few minutes We're gonna trust the process We really are just gonna trust the process. I think Every person has something to say and something that they want to say we do it in words mostly and if you're a musician, you can do it free sound and I think sound is the most direct connection to your emotions In the sense that you can articulate what you're feeling right in that moment And then on top of that you bounce the feelings the energy field across the musicians on stage and to the audience and back around and it creates this I think there's deep profound connection that we all exist that we all live and we get to share a moment and a moment of feeling where we all kind of feel the same thing all together and Essentially what I always look for in a space with music is how do we find that space? We all feel together and that means everybody on the stage needs to be open to expressing themselves and find a way to To speak together and that can take a while Sometimes but I think you have to trust that process and you'll get there. That's it. So we're gonna trust the process Those of you who are sitting in here You will be able to shortly Go in there get some food get yourself a drink bring it back here settle in Musicians be ready those of you who are watching this at home going to make yourself a cup of tea or something Will be maybe 20 25 minutes and then the music will start I would like you to join me in thanking my wonderful panel Emma Warren playing Francis Kevin Legendre Thank you very much. We'll see you soon. Thank you Thank you This is more like it. This is what I wanted to hear when I said I is the first time so you're gonna try one more time Now Yeah, for this time, that's good, that's good Okay I'm gonna pick on people on the stage right now. That's what I'm gonna do. They would like me when we get into that, right? So I'm saying yeah, all right. I'm picking on two people shawntay and Lorenz Shawntay you got to start to use I know the rent will catch in you ready for it. Yeah, let's do it. Yes I'm gonna introduce everybody on the stage really quickly We've got Nate Ricketts on drums Just behind this mirror Vanessa and that's I just said here you have this miras over in the center right of the front Renault sure on the base Just in front of him her name is shawntay her name is shawntay her name is shawntay At the back to the left of Renault Harry on the flute and to his left on trombone Viva At the front we have Kajali on Kora and in the corner. Is he gonna do it today Lorenz from the ends? All right Gasper do how much time do we have I think we're like at time. I don't know if he started later not keep it going Yeah, more time no time We got some more time 10 minutes, okay good There's a guitarist and so I can't remember your name. I need to get one of somebody to come and join us Yes coming through Maybe we swap out drummers All right, cool cool Did you tell them what your name was? Oh, I haven't told them my name yet. I feel like we should you can introduce me go on. I'll take it To your host Saxophonist with the mustophonist. I don't know how you made that sound Halida anansi anansi anansi And I think we've got a food player percussionist or so I'm joining us man vocals Come through Lismira Just just bring the volume down keep it going though bring the volume down a bit Lismira, I have a question for you What's the what's what's this make you think of remember these days when we were on tour? And you uh, you tell me stories about venezuela And you tell me stories about your dad What does this feel like right now? What does this feel like the music right now powerful It feels transforming We bring the tablet player off Chombon and flutes two three Actually any um keyboard players right make some noise make some noise So everybody on stage. I'm going to do this out to the audience. So you come into the process We are going to start with just percussion And then everybody else I will cue you in later Actually, we we might have to pass some stuff down. All right, cool. Um, I need some some delays on on on this one And this one Okay, we we're going. All right, so Rhythm section anybody that's got percussion We're about to start now Okay, lorenz you ready to come back on anybody else um that oh, where's the and bear the place? No, it's one of the musicians up on the stage. Please percussionist Yes, come through you don't play some bass come through Cassius. Where is he? Where is he? He's coming up. Yes You don't come in place on Congress. Oh, hey Yeah, yeah, cool. Cool. Good. Good Make some noise come on make some noise when we swap the ukulele and um, um better Please thank you very much. Well, good. Make some noise You're good. Yeah. Okay, cool All right, okay Rickets Yes, please Give me some hip-hop. Please Ricketts You ready for it? Yeah Yes, let's go What do you need? Oh the clap stack Now you're not getting it today. It's okay Cassius I gotta call you on you next Sometimes it's hard I'm feeling overwhelmed I look around the master round and turn it out myself And my gifted am I even working hard enough for running up these heels while these dons are strolling in the park And I know comparison's a thief of joy So we're trying not to look at others but it's hard boy It's like everyone gets the shot and I am beat It's coming up circulating, it's like a shit These ones that you pull beat you're giving props that they aren't you When I'm looking at myself that's strong, take me where you Humble yourself and give them songs that are only you Bring me then God reminds me that nobody owes me anything I know I will tell him that God is with him and that that's gospel Sometimes that's all I pray when I'm in the town Man, I can say that so proudly I was lost to the music found me I'mma have all the big neighbors wanna scout me If you're talking down on me then move around me Y'all don't ever want to see your face again I don't change for no one Know I do, don't make amends Never in a thousand years would I pretend I won't say that shit again I just forced to stand out if you blend with the crowd I'm trying to do my family proud and I will say that shit loud Um, balance is the key I'll get it tied on me How does that stand? I just stand from in for a pound Till I drop dead I'll still be making this bread I won't stop writing till there's a break in the net Get love, give love, I know you heard what I said This shit works both ways, man it's deep in the... It's impressive, it's yet he's heard about Leave it, give it talent I think it's time I start asking for help Because no woman is an island and I cannot do it by myself I'm learning to depend upon the one we're going to send And some more time on this present and some more time we'll spend It's time to make room so no room for ever or whatever I don't really care because I am clever I have a bar that will take you to December Get here, we flow around and we'll keep the rocks steady like I'm a girl from the island, born in the Ems Moment as a friend I take you to the dump again Hey, don't forget we're jumping on the drums again