 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, so good morning once again and welcome to our class on Christian counseling. So glad that all of you could join in here. I'm sure we're all enjoying the grace of God being helped and blessed by him through our daily work and our activities. Yeah, welcome to the e learning students as well. Thank you for joining in. Thank you for the interactions that they have been in the on the forum, the discussion discussion group. I must say students that online students that a lot of your sharing and questions are really helping you know students who have not joined us here but are part of the e learning so continue to interact continue to share your thoughts and your observations you're actually really making this a wonderful classroom for those who are not able to join us so welcome once again everybody and looking forward to another good two hours of learning and hearing from God through this specific ministry. Let's just start with a word of prayer and we'll, we'll move right in having the father we thank you once again for this time that you have brought each one of us here in your presence Lord wherever we are part of different parts of the world. Lord we thank you that you have given us this opportunity to connect in such a way to learn. Lord thank you because all wisdom and knowledge comes from you. And Lord even as we look further into this specific ministry of counseling. We pray God that you will open our eyes to who you want us to be as effective helpers and ministers. Lord even as we are going to be looking at the Christian counselor today Lord we pray that you will prepare each of our hearts to be what you want us to be. Lord as we extend our love and our compassion like you did to those around equip us we pray in every way. Thank you Heavenly Father in Jesus name we pray. Amen. All right so quick recap about what we had done the last week we had you know just started to understand about what counseling is and what Christian and biblical counseling is. We looked into some of the core elements of biblical counseling and we also focused a little on basic tenets of effective biblical counseling I hope y'all did take time to read through your notes go through the scripture and stay in on track with with what we are learning. So today are we're going to be our focus on today's class was is going to be on the Christian counselor. Okay, so we're going to be looking at two specific aspects. One is what what are some of the qualities or traits that a Christian counselor needs to have. And second we're going to look at what are certain principles that a Christian counselor needs to abide by as they engage in in a counseling relationship. Okay, so before we get started I'll just like to share my screen. Are you able to see the presentation in full screen? Not yet ma'am. Not yet? No ma'am. That's an issue. Just a minute please. Are you able to view it now? Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay, good. All right. So before we get started, I just want to open up a question to y'all and have you'll think about this this question like there may be some of you who've probably approached counselors or someone who you really wanted help or direction from. Okay, but I'm looking at more at someone as a counselor that we are defining rather than, you know, getting advice or help from a friend or maybe, you know, it, a lot of those characteristics are also needed. You know, when you've been helping someone not as a counselor, but maybe as a guide or as a mentor, but I'd like you to tell me when you approach somebody, when let's say you have a pressing need and you either want some kind of clarity or you want some help or there is some direction that you're looking for. What would, what would you be really looking for in the person? How do you expect to feel comfortable or to feel in a state of wanting to continue that conversation with this person? So what would your expectations be of the person who you would approach for help of a direction? Yeah, you could either mute, you could either unmute and tell me what you think, or you could even put it down on chat and I will, I'll ensure that I read that out. So Elisha has said, Elisha has responded they should be trustworthy and a confident. Chaya says they should be mature and they should be trustworthy. Okay, I'd like to understand what you mean by the word trustworthy. What would you mean by the word trustworthy? So I'm sure we all have different understanding. So, you know, interact and put it out as to what you think you need, you would like to see. Someone who we can confide in, like we share our concern, they may keep it to themselves and be able to help without judging, as well as have a listening ear. Like someone, you know, many, many times they may not have a word to say but when someone hears us, that itself helps us many times. Excellent, good. So Avni said a couple of things. She said someone who is open to listen, who's willing to listen to what you have to say. The second thing she says is someone who will listen without judgment, who will not pass any kind of a bias or an opinion on what you are saying. And the third thing that she said was someone who will keep confidential what the person is sharing. Okay, excellent. Okay, Samuel, Samuel's written to be able to understand the things I say, as well as the things I don't. Okay, wonderful. Yeah. So, and we're going to be learning a lot about this, how do we assess and how do we pick up things, not just that is verbally said, but is also that is non verbally communicated. So, absolutely. So you would like someone who would be perceptive about not just what you're saying, but maybe even probably certain things that you are also displaying. Okay, excellent, good. I think Shaya said someone who's a good listener. Yes, yes, please go ahead. Along with what you said about non verbal, but also, it may not be non verbal also. But it could be like I'm trying to say something, let's say I'm just describing my situation. But underlying that could be things like, you know, I'm maybe an insecure person or I am an introvert and all of that. And it could be because of something that's happened to me like long ago and all that. So, so maybe non verbally also I'm not expressing or verbal and this is what I what intrigues me about a counselor and probably a formal education and counseling. And when I see myself as a counselor, I think this I find myself a limitation to I think for me a counselor is someone who would be able to just by listening to a person speak and open. Open up. I think a trained or experienced counselor would have the wisdom to really sense the deep underlying issues which may be coming out through the verbal and non verbal but which may not be even coming out. But to be able to do that and yeah, so that's what I was trying to say. Absolutely. So I think I'll maybe give an example to what Samuel was trying to communicate. Like, like what he was saying was that probably there are some things that the person says or does not even say, but it could have underlying undertones to it. Right. Like, for example, you're talking to a person and the person says, you know, yeah, I'm, you know, I do a lot of things at home. You know, I ensure that I make I manage my home very well. I guess the others really don't, you know, have more far more important things to do than probably to help me. Okay, so a sentence like this is the person hasn't said anything much but then it is laden with so much of content that like Samuel was saying an experienced counselor or someone who intently listens picks up on some of that and either probes or a response or, you know, comes to a place where they engage in something that is unsaid but probably is meant. So absolutely. I think what Samuel said is is perfectly right and we're going to be looking a lot into that about how you clarify and you pick up and you respond to even things that have not been explicitly said. Okay, good. I think Rose has written someone who is genuine and really intending to help one who someone who can seek refuge to when there is no one else who can seem to put aside time for you. Okay. All right. Good. Avni has said someone who's rooted in the word and see things through the lens of the word. Okay. Shri Kumar has said wise, knowledgeable, friendly. Avni has written available. Chai has written spiritually mature. Prabhakar, you've written the one who have and can see the issue or problem and are able to give a right or a definite solution or direction in the way that suits the counseling. Okay. Christopher said someone who has a knowledge and experience of the current world we live in. Yes. Okay. Good. So excellent. So we all do see what we would like or what kind of a person we really expect to have as a counselor. Ma'am, I would like to add. Yes. May I know who's speaking? I cannot see it because I can just see a few tiles. May I know who's speaking? Ma'am, I'm Prabhakar. Yes, Prabhakar. Go ahead. Yeah, I just want to add through a light on certain incident happening by Bill. Just an example of a wonderful counselor about Jesus is like, I remember the incident when people are like stoning a woman who was caught like doing sin and they were like about to, you know, throw a stone and she was running and running and it came to a place where Jesus was sick, like they're available and people stop stoning and ask a question and Jesus like she sin and according to the laws of the, you know, old covenant. But Jesus said those who didn't sin throw a stone at her first and so everyone left and even Jesus who is trustworthy and a wonderful counselor didn't even judge her by her past and didn't say anything just said one thing, not sin again. And she left. So that's the moment when her life was turned around. So sometimes being a good counselor doesn't need to speak more. You just need to understand and just need to, you know, do not judge on their past life. And we can learn a lot from that particular incident where being a counselor means to just getting to have a good empathy towards them and encourage them not to involve in those things and just move ahead in life and with good intentions and motivate them. So I think her life was totally changed by that simple gesture, though he saved her from those people and also didn't judge her. So that's the way, I mean, we can take keynotes and we can also sit with them, talk to them and understand because trustworthy in Hindi it says Vishwas Yogi. So it says Vishwas Yogi, the person whom we can believe and trust blindfoldedly, I mean without an ounce of a doubt where we can share our heart out and without a fear of being church or being dictated or being, you know, something. So that's my point of view from the Biblical perspective. So to, I mean, as Sister Rupa said this, to speak the truth in Lhasa, that's very true. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Prabhakar. Thank you for sharing and from Jesus' ministry. In fact, you know, if we could actually, if we really did have time, actually one of the lessons was that but because of a lack of time was to actually take a couple of ways of sharing. So Jesus ministered to people and see how, you know, what were some of the qualities that he showed but then that's what we've kind of put up in a small gist over here. But thank you, yeah. I think even Rupa and Rupa has mentioned empathy as well as being able to speak the truth in love. Okay, wonderful. Okay, so we'll go through some of the qualities of a counselor. We've got certain scripture also that's there. I'm on page five in the book. So if you'd like to follow along, please go ahead and we can follow along. Okay, so certain elements of a Christian counselor. We're going to just look a lot more in detail in some of this. Okay, and what does this mean as we look through some of the scriptures that is put in. So the first one is, yes, someone who is spiritually mature and, you know, Timothy talks about someone who is ministering. Okay, but we've taken the principle out of that that the one who who is who is the watcher of a soul should be someone who shouldn't be an amateur or someone who who is comes newly in the faith or someone who's who's a new believer or someone who's newly converted or instructed, but someone who has been seasoned in the word who's been seasoned in living a Christian life and working with community of believers with having a strong relationship, the anointing of the Holy Spirit. So someone who is spiritually mature is is one of the greatest elements of being a Christian counselor. When we look at spiritual maturity, a lot of disciplines, spiritual disciplines come as a result of our, as we build our relationship with God, and someone who has themselves been through different struggles, and issues in life and been able to exercise their faith and exercise their reliability and dependence on God as they move through those life situations. So, so it doesn't mean that has to be key. No, but we do understand that there are every one of us being in, in this world system have gone through challenges of different kinds, and how we, we have tied through those situations really matter and and how we tie through it with the help of God with our faith being worked in and with our faith being in place. So, so I remember, I think I, as a, you know, as a personal story, I must, must say that before when, you know, when when I did just get into the profession of, of counseling and so so I started off more in a secular form where, you know, I learned about a counselor counseling and understanding the principles of it, and then, you know, began to, to look more into scripture and what my role is, you know, as a, as a believer as a, as a Christian, and it, that was some of the things that actually really helped me through to know that, you know, there are many situations that may occur in our lives, right from our childhood, our adolescence and as we've gone through, and how have we approached in understanding these specific events or experiences in our life. So, has it come from a place of resignation or bitterness, or is it, you know, as you spend more time in your relationship with God, does that change for your better so if I look back, if I, as of now if I look back, I can't thank God enough for those very experiences that I was put through as negative as they may be, they are the ones that, that has actually shaped and built my confidence and my understanding of what scripture is. So, I remember growing up as a child with an extremely poor self esteem because of certain experiences and events that I went through. And that was one of, one of my main desires was to understand, you know, the mind and understand why these things affect behavior and that's what took me to this place of understanding about psychology and counseling. But then as I kept learning, I began to see how, how, you know, how, how wonderfully wealthy it was, but yet it did not touch into the depth of this may be certain situations or the depth of the core of the heart. But it was more when I kept looking back at scripture and certain, you know, certain things that God had been speaking to me, it made, it made things so much more effective. And it was, and I can, I can testify for the fact that it was only because of the word of God that a lot of negative thought patterns that was part of me in my earlier days has been changed, has been renewed, has been transformed only because of what God spoke about in his word. And that, I believe is also maturity, you know, a Christian counselor learning through their own experiences and coming to a place of faith, coming to a place of discipline and maturity, learning from the word, absorbing the word into themselves helps them to become a better helper. So being spiritually mature is, is something that is needed for, for a Christian counselor also. So this, this moves us into our next point is someone who is being who is grounded in scripture, someone who knows scripture. So, and I think it's just not reading of scripture but also being able to meditating on it and, you know, memorizing it for the essence of what it brings. Because, you know, when we look at scripture, it talks about how much, you know, God desires for us to be delighted in his word or delighted in the law of his word. Like someone talks about, you know, that he delights in the law of the Lord meditating on it day and night. So how you delight in it, which, which brings you to a place of grounding of scripture that everything comes as a result of what you're learning in scripture. There are many other references that are given in your notes, but I just want to probably highlight a couple more. Like in John 1717, it says, you know, be sanctified in by the truth of God's word. It says make them holy by your truth, teach them your word, which is truth. So you become sanctified or you're made holy only by the truth. So as a Christian counselor, you cannot expect to lead people if you do not know what scripture has to say or if you're not grounded in the word. And this is, this keeps developing over and over and over. And I don't think we ever reach the end of it, you know, every time I think all of us may be reading the word, we understand there is so much to know so much to understand. And so much of a revelation that comes about through each time that we that we read scripture. Okay, again, being grounded in scripture is also not just knowing scripture, but being transformed by it like Romans 12 to says being transformed by the renewing of the mind and not conforming to the world and its ways. So the more that we are grounded in it, the more that we will see, we are transformed in our inner man, as well as we are transformed in the kind of support and help and wisdom and knowledge that we give somebody else. Okay, again, scripture talks about how we are called to meditate on that, which is Philippines for eight on that which is true, noble, just pure, lovely, and a good report. That's what we are called to do to be able to come to a place of meditating on things that are hopeful. And, you know, even as you listen to stories of people, sometimes it can actually, and this is I'm telling you out of my own experience and some stories can make you feel, you know, appears a very hopeless situation. You know, almost things that that will just not work. But this is what scripture says, meditate on that which is true, meditate on that which is lovely and of good report. So that which is just so maybe you're not able to do it. Sorry, your counseling may not be able to do it, but you are extending your faith for that of the counseling. So being grounded in in scripture and knowing God's word really is a helpful tool. Okay, because even Hebrews 412 that the verse that says the word of God is living and active. So that is what will will pierce and penetrate through every situation. You know, whatever the intense of the person's heart is, or whatever the thoughts are, it's a word of God that actually brings about that change. So being able to use this knowing that, you know, we're not fighting against flesh and blood, but we are fighting against principalities and powers of darkness. And we, as, as God's people has the divine power, because of his name to destroy those strong holes in by the power of God's word. So to be be able to use that and, and help clients with it. So the very important point of being grounded in scriptures. The third one is being prayerful. Now there isn't, you know, a shortcut to this. And I think one of the biggest examples that we can see is or the earliest examples we can see is the account of Enoch, you know, where it says that Enoch was he was known as one who walked with God. Okay. And so the one who walks with God is someone who can commute with God who was always in a relationship with God. And those who walk with God will also practice those spiritual disciplines. So, so reading the word being coming to God in prayer is an absolutely important thing. And scripture, you know, wherever we look we do find that we are encouraged to devote our lives in prayer and Colossians 4 to says that you know, keep yourselves in prayer with an alert mind and a thankful heart. And one of the biggest examples that we see in Jesus's ministry is the way that he got away from every crowd, every pressing ministry for times to spend away with God. And sometimes it was even the whole night or for a couple of hours. And that's something that's an example that we take. So as counselors, each of us needs the Spirit's help in understanding different details either of the counseling's problems or the emotions that they are going through, or things that they have not really articulated. And let's face this truth that we need the Spirit's help in using wisdom to help anyone who comes to us. And, and we know that it's only the Spirit who can give us that needed insight and revelation to motivate for some for a for for change. So, you know, and, and I think even as we, we are talking about this point on prayerfulness, we're saying, we must also be in a place where we can pray in the spirit, you know, speaking in tongues, because as we do that, we're speaking mysteries that maybe our mind doesn't understand. And you're, you're, as you're speaking in tongues, you're also speaking something for your counseling, or it's, it's either a wisdom that you're calling forth, it's, it's a comfort, it's a strength. We don't know, but, but just praying in the spirit is something that, that, that we need to do. So there are times that, that, you know, when, when counselors do talk to me and I have no directional idea as to how this is going, I just, I mean, my attention is there. But then I am in the spirit, I am actually praying, I'll say Holy Spirit, you know, this is, this is not my realm right now, I don't know what's going on. So just, just moving to a place of speaking in tongues under my breath and under me, not definitely observant to another, but you do see that the power of the Holy Spirit walks in, and it helps you go through whatever situation that you are, you are facing at that point of time. So engaging with the Holy Spirit even at a time when your counselor is sitting. So I remember, there was one teacher who, who said, who told, I remember him saying that, you know, when he counsels, he's got one eye on the Holy Spirit and he's got one eye on the counseling. Okay. And just like how the Holy Spirit has one eye on me and has one eye on the counselor, right, to keep our attention on the guidance and the presence of the Holy Spirit. So taking time to pray for your counselors. And I think as a practice, something we should probably do is every time that we meet with someone, you know, if you're not in a position to pray with them directly or, you know, openly, then it is important to, you know, do that before your session or after your session and cover that entire session in God's grace. Okay. The next one is a counselor needs to be a giver of hope. A counselor needs to, sorry, a counselor needs to be a giver of hope. Okay. And when we're looking at the word hope, you know, scripture talks about how when hope is deferred, it makes the heart sick. Okay. But when there is something that is fulfilled, it is like a tree of life. Okay. We hope with something that is so important for any one of us and those who come for counseling are often in a very deep sense of pain and a sense of a heartache. You know, they've had a lot of people would have had very shattering life experiences or they may be going through different situations, which, which can be very significantly distressing and and debilitating for them. Sometimes they, they face these for years and they have come to a place of hopelessness or others have failed over and over and over again and they may need that sense of hope. You know, some people may have all their hopes broken repeatedly and others maybe just have given up. And this is what scripture talks of how God is the one who offers us, offers us hope, the living hope that we have in Christ Jesus. So what does hope do? What does hope do? Hope number one, it gives us confidence. Yeah, it gives us confidence. And when we, when we look at that scripture of hope giving us confidence, the scripture that talks about is that we have boldness when we have the hope that we profess, we have a boldness. So hope actually gives you boldness to deal with whatever issues or struggles that you have. Hope produces joy. Okay. The, in Proverbs 10 28 it says the hope of the righteous will be gladness. Okay, the hope of the righteous will be gladness. So whenever there is hope that comes a joy that is not transient but something that will continue to remain. Hope produces perseverance where perseverance is being able to come to a place where you continue, continuing on. Okay. So in Romans 8 25 it says we hope for what we do not see we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. So if that, you know, if, if any of you did follow the last Sunday sermon, it talks about how hope comes first, you need to be in a place of hope about what is going to come and only and only and from there is where you exercise your faith, you cannot, you don't have faith if you don't hope for something. So hope always comes first. Hope is something that holds that anchor and makes you, you know, use exercise your faith and believing. So hope is something that continues and produces perseverance. It produces great faith. It produces love. Okay. Hope is what keeps keeps keeps produces consistency. You know, again, there are scriptures that are there. So, you know, if you want, you can just take some time and read, read it. But in 1st Thessalonians 1 3 talks about how not seizing your work of faith or your labor of love. Okay, you don't seize it because of the hope that we have in Christ Jesus because of the hope that we have in who God is. So it makes us consistent. It makes us stronger. It gives us a renewed sense of energy and enthusiasm. Hope also produces stability. It hope is like the anchor of the soul. Okay, as it talks in Hebrew 619 and says hope is like the anchor of the soul that makes it sure and steadfast on what is to come. And hope also produces purity because 1 John 3 3 talks about that whoever has the hope purifies himself just as he is pure. So as a counselor, you are to you are to be a giver of hope and and I think this is the best. The, I remember, you know, the last in the last class that is someone from the e learning students asked this very significant question, what is, what do you think is, what do you think is more helpful I think you use the word Christian or biblical counseling. And I think one of the biggest factors that separates this to is the hope, the hope that we have in Christ Jesus, that no matter even if the circumstances don't pan out the way that you would like to, that is, you still have an eternal hope you still have a living hope that he walks with you through this time. That kind of a hope and assurance people who are not in in faith or in belief, don't find because there's nothing that they can anchor their hearts to nothing that they can catch on to. So hope in the living God becomes one of those significant, you know, deciding factors of how a person begins to heal or how a person deals with with situations that they may be going through. Okay. Quickly, other, other elements is one is the next one is a Christian counselor needs to be an activator of change. So, you know, but when we're looking at, and I'd like to bring up that scripture there, which is in Ephesians, it says, when we are in Christ, we learn to keep aside our selfish, carnal ways of living. And we renew our hearts and minds and put on the new ways of living in a manner that is worthy of the Lord, so that we can please him and as a result we will bear bear fruits. So, so that's the that's something that you, you want to move your counseling into to be able to lay aside everything that hinders and take on everything that you know, putting on that new nature, which is which God, God has given us. And as we as we keep putting on that nature to be more like God to be more truly righteous and holy in him. Okay. So, so when we're looking at Christian counseling, it is a ministry where you seek to come alongside another person to help them cope with whatever issues they may have in life and in accordance with the word of God and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Come to a place of transformation and change. Okay. And so, so that you're, you're helping them move into different elements of maturity, where they may be, you know, just being obedient in a specific situation, and also in learning how to have a change in their character change in or growth in the way that they, they are as individuals. So that's the thing of being able to help them to come to a place of change. Okay. The third one is to motivate practice of scriptures at even problem areas. And so what what is a Christian counselor we're also going to be doing is to help them come to a place in a right relationship with God. So that is a motivation. You're motivating them. You don't force them or push them to push it down their throat. You're motivating them to come to a place of not just listening to God's word, but also doing what it says, because, you know, that scripture in James 122 says if you're not doing that, you're fooling yourself. You're not fooling anybody else. If you think that whatever you're doing or you're walking in a place of sin is, you know, fooling everybody else know you're actually fooling yourself. So coming to a place where you just don't listen to God's word, but you're also doing what it says. Another key element is being compassionate. Now what does compassion mean? Compassion. Sorry, I lost the. Yeah. Okay. So compassion. What does compassion mean? Compassion means to feel to feel very strongly or to feel very deeply within to, to have a sense of empathy, or a sense of compassion. A sense of how someone else would be distressed at the suffering, at their own suffering. And what is compassion involved? Compassion involves the counselor being engaged in the life of the counselor or in the heart of the counseling. So it is compassion also means to rely upon the power of God in order to also avoid things like despair or discouragement or burnout. You know, sometimes I'm sure a lot of us have noticed, you know, there are times, especially when you go to hospitals, you know, doctors who've been working for years, seasoned doctors at the point of time when you meet them, you know, over very many years, they've lost compassion. They don't treat the patient as a person. They treat them as a problem. And you can immediately sense that in the way they engage with their patients. So if counselors can tend to become this compassionate, because of the kind of, you know, often because of the many stories they hear, the burnout they feel, maybe they're going through their own struggles and not really able to help and encourage. So this compassion that we're talking about can only come from that reliance upon the power of God. And we see, you know, that was what marked the ministry of Jesus. You know, he was moved with compassion. Many scriptures say that and there are a couple of verses that are there. He was moved, he was moved with compassion and reached out and he touched them. He saw the multitude and he was filled with compassion. And, you know, he says, especially, I think, with the 5000. Yeah, it was the 5000 when he said he said, you know, I feel sorry for them that they have not eaten for so many days. Now, this is what moving out is. Now, despite the, you know, the time and constraints and the energy that Jesus did put in, he continued to show compassion because, you know, in, I think it was in Mark 634, it says, they're like sheep without a shepherd. Okay, so he was in a place where he moved with compassion. That's exactly what we as the Christian Council are also to do. The last one for this is to be able to use wisdom. So, wisdom, when we minister to people, sorry, should be rooted in our relationship with God, and it should be based on the word of God. The wisdom that we use should be that which is rooted in our relationship with God, as well as in the study of the word. Because, you know, Scripture talks of that, of how the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. So to be able to bring about help, bring about wisdom, assistance, guidance, to be able to be in the wisdom of God, to fear the Lord, because it is the foundation of all wisdom. And also to use wisdom, the wisdom from above is pure. The wisdom from above is gentle. It is without hypocrisy. It is without partiality. So this is the wisdom that we use when we help our clients, our counsellors. Okay, so quickly, these are some that are a lot more, but then you know just I've just kind of picked up a few from here, just so that we can, you know, consolidate a few of these, these elements that we have. Is there any, do you all have any questions? We have around two or three minutes before we stop, maybe close for a break. Is there any questions on elements of a, of a Christian counsellor? Ma'am, can I ask? Yes, Avani, go ahead. Ma'am, when you talk about compassion, one thought that is coming to my heart was that having a compassion without experiencing and going through that pain, is it possible? Okay, so this is something that we will be doing in a, in a class later on, and it is called, what it is called is entering into the frame of reference of the individual you're talking to. Okay. So you're right that you may not understand the depth of the situation or feel compassionate for the depth that they have going, that they're going through. But what you are doing as one of the skills is when you enter, in simple words, when you enter into the shoes of somebody else, and that happens, not by imagining, but that happens when you give a year of listening, and go and give attention to certain details of, of the person's life. Okay, so as they, so very often, you know, maybe as a novice counsellor, when someone is talking about their situation, they will say, you know, I, I, a family member died last week, and I am, I'm very grieved. Okay, so an amateur or a, or a, you know, a counsellor, maybe not with much of an experience, will try and attempt to take away whatever grief or sadness or frustration that they may be feeling, but avoid, because of their lack of experience, to keep them grounded in understanding that situation a lot more. So to help them to maybe talk about the death, talk about what took place, talk about the memories of the person actually brings to life or throws a new picture about, you know, you're actually painting a picture in your imagination about what they are saying. A very good storyteller actually will help you to live a story well, right? Now that doesn't mean that all your counsellors need to be good storytellers. As a counsellor, you should be able to elicit that kind of an information or that kind of feelings that's going through. Okay, so that it helps you to be able to paint the picture or paint the imagination of what the person was going through. So yes, it is possible, but of course it does require experience, it does require practice, just being able to stay in that moment to hear those stories so that you can, you can extend compassion. I hope I answered that Avni. Yes ma'am, thank you so much. Okay. Yes, Samuel, I think you have a question. Thank you ma'am. I have two questions, but I could ask them after the break, if you will. Yeah, I think we'll come back from the break and you can ask the question, Samuel. Yeah, so it's 10.52 on my clock and we will be back at 11.02. Have a good coffee break.