 We are live Good morning, everyone. This meeting will now come to order Welcome to this virtual meeting of the Durham Historic Preservation Commission on this sixth day of April 2021 my name is Matt Bouchard, and I am chair of the Commission This commission is a quasi judicial board of record and as such all testimony will be recorded Under this procedure our meeting today will also be live-streamed on the city's YouTube channel The proceedings of this board are governed by the zoning laws as Recorded as such, please note the steps we have taken to ensure that each parties do process rights are protected as we proceed in this remote platform today first Today's meeting will be conducted in accordance with the statutes enacted in session law 2020-3 and codified at the North Carolina General Statutes chapter 166a section 19.24 which allows for remote meetings and quasi judicial hearings during declarations of emergency Second each applicant on today's agenda was notified before being placed on the agenda that this meeting would be conducted using a remote electronic platform every applicant on today's agenda has consented to the board conducting the evidential hearing on Their request using this remote platform We will also confirm today at the start of each evidentiary hearing that the participants in the hearing consent to the matter proceeding in this remote platform If there is any objection to a matter proceeding in this remote platform that case will be continued Third notice of this meeting was provided to the applicants into the public in multiple ways including signage posted on site Notification letters mailed to all adjacent property owners informing recipients regarding the remote platform and a general announcement via the Commission's website informing the public of the same The notices for today's meeting advised the public on how to access the remote meeting as the meeting occurs Individuals wishing to participate in today's evidential hearings were required to register prior to the meeting Information about this registration requirement along with information about how to sign up to participate Was included in the mailed notice letter sent to each adjacent property owner This information was also included on the board's website The public was advised to contact the city immediately in case of objection to the evidentiary hearing to the remote meeting platform I do not believe that City staff has received any objection to any matter being heard in this remote meeting platform, is that correct? Hearing no objection. I move forward All individuals participating in today's evidentiary hearings were also required to submit a copy of any presentation Document exhibit or other material they wish to submit at the evidentiary hearing prior to today's meeting All materials that the city received from the participants in today's cases As well as a copy of city staff's presentations and documents were posted online prior to this meeting The agenda and all materials to be discussed today may be viewed at any time during today's meeting By visiting the web link for today's agenda via Durham's agenda center Finally all individuals who registered to participate in an evidentiary hearing on today's agenda As well as all city staff participants were emailed a witness oath and consent to a remote hearing form prior to today's meeting Any individual planning to testify or submit evidence in an evidentiary hearing today was notified That they must sign the oath form prior to today's meeting You will also reaffirm everyone's oath on the record at today's meeting Are there any members of this board that would have any conflicts of interest with regard to the cases before us today? Just for the record in regards to COA 2100014162 West Ramsey Street I am an employee of the Crest building so it is next door to me and then I've also worked with Pretty much every entity involved in that project at some point or another throughout my career But the best of my knowledge Stuart doesn't have any financial interest in this project moving forward and after Talking with the city attorney's office it seems like I don't have a conflict of interest but I just want that on the record that those circumstances are in fact true Okay, thank you commissioner Hamilton anybody else are there any early dismissals being requested today Good morning, sir. This is Wanda waiters and I have an early dismissal request for 1030 Thank you commissioner waiters 1030 Anybody else as chair of the historic preservation commission I'd like to remind everyone that our quasi judicial hearings function similar to a court proceeding Staff will first present an overview of the case and then the applicant will have an opportunity to present their evidence Opponents if there are any may then present their evidence and the applicant may then present a rebuttal Board member excuse me board members will refrain from questions or comments until each speaker has completed his or her presentation Testimony should consist of facts each witness knows directly not hearsay Evidence already presented need not be repeated all witnesses who have signed up in advance will be given the opportunity to speak and their testimony will be recorded The board will vote on each case after the presentation of all evidence pro and con concerning the case All decisions of this board are subject to appeal to the board of adjustment and then to the Durham County Superior Court Madam clerk we please have the attendance taken of the commissioners who are here today Yes chair for sure Here Okay and commissioner down ask for an excuse absence so he is not going to be here today Commissioner to Barry here Commissioner Bezelman here Vice chair cool speed Yeah Commissioner Hamilton Yeah Commissioner Johnson here Commissioner Craig or here on commissioner waiters Commissioner waiters here Thank you all commissioners you have been forwarded an agenda for today's meeting would anyone including city staff like to recommend any adjustments to that agenda Carl Rosenberg planning department on no adjustments please Okay Commissioners you have also been provided draft minutes for our last commission meeting which was held on the same remote platform back on March the second of this year Does anyone have any adjustments to the draft minutes that they would like to recommend So when I The Portal It actually says the February 2nd meeting and it talks about meeting chair so I don't know It's not the right one published to the Agenda center Or it says March 2nd on the title, but then when you get into it it doesn't I think those are previous cases also Is it possible that the wrong set of minutes got included? I'm just I'm asking Ms. Elliott or Ms. Rosenberg. I'm not sure Terry you're on mute We can hear you now I think they're saying that the the minutes say March 2nd, but they have cases from the month before So I'm not sure we can look into that Maybe circle back at the end of the meeting would that be okay. Yeah, that is fine by me Sorry about that except we'll try to sort that out Madam clerk, could you please swear in all city staff that will be presenting today's cases The testimony you're about to give in the public hearing proceedings for today's cases Is the truth by your own knowledge or by information? I'm Grace Smith. I do I'm Carla should be on the line. Yeah, I think he's coming up. Yeah, Carla Rosenberg planning department. I do Is that everybody today? Okay, well with that I believe we are Ready to proceed with our first case on today's docket. This is case COA 21 00008 709 Shepherd Street New construction of Accessory structure continued from March 2 2021 Meeting Before we hear from staff, is there anyone of our commissioners who may have a conflict of interest in hearing this case? If not, then let us proceed with the swearing in of anyone who plans to speak for this case I think we lost the participant bearable. Okay there. I apologize chair them They didn't come over bear with us one second. Okay Okay They heard the oath so if you could read Mr. Please Testimony you're about to give them the public hearing proceedings But today's case is the truth by your own knowledge or by information and believe Yes. Yes And Mr. Kopak and Ms. Botah. Do you consent to this hearing being conducted? By this virtual platform today. Yes. Yes, we do wonderful. Thank you Now we may proceed with the staff summary Good morning, Carla Rosenberg planning department. I apologize for having some technical issues But This is case COA 21 00008 709 Shepherd Street new construction of an accessory structure the applicant James Kopak the owner Nicole Botah Located on the east side of Shepherd Street between Jackson and Nancy streets Zoned residential urban five duplex and it is a contributing structure or contributing property to the Morehead Hill Historic District So this is a case that was initiated at the last at the March Preservation Commission meeting. So this is a continued case that has been revised So you'll see the new revised proposal in your packets. So I'd like to introduce this revision into the record and Resume review of this case Mr. Kopak or Ms. Botah the floor is yours Okay, so at the Conclusion of the last meeting we were I think I don't want to say assigned but we are given Advised on a few directives to take to revise our application the First revisions that you'll come to on pages 11 and 12 as suggested by committee member or April Are to have gone out in the community and sort of do an investigation of comparable ad use in Durham To that extent On pages 11 and 12 Which should be the next two pages after this site site plot the The ad use circled or Boxed in red are the ones that we thought most similarly represented The ad you that we are proposing to construct Based on the comments that we received in the last meeting with regard to Our revision To our proposed building the building has become smaller in size From a footprint standpoint it has been reduced in height to some extent and We've also changed the fenestrations which I believe Summarize the primary concerns with the previous version of the application If you would look at pages 13 and 14 There are also concerns relate to us about the visibility Of the Proposed ad you from the street and to the extent possible we have overlaid views from Google Maps and Our Architectural program on what this ad you may look like not at the current property and I think From our perspective I Believe it Yeah, just trying to demonstrate that it sits like down the hill so Really wouldn't see as much of it as like you do and just like the drawing Yeah I suppose I think that we've We've we've addressed Some of the major comments here, but I'm obviously happy to answer any Specific questions that you all have in relation to how this application has changed since last month Thank you very much Do any commissioners of any questions for the owner or applicant before we asked to hear from others? Carla, can you scroll down to the new building design? The COA is not loading for me nor did I get it in the mail. Thank you. I'll ask One question learning the pictures And we certainly appreciate your efforts to find comparable Accessory dwelling units in the city. Do any of these pictures represent ad use? found in the more head hill historic district so I would direct your attention to the first picture on the top left column where the page reads 80 you comps This Structure is on Proctor Street just south of Moorhead Avenue, which I believe is the only one Which is contained within Moorhead Hill the others Which may be a part of Moorhead Hill or The forest Hills neighborhood that I would direct your attention to is the picture that is adjacent to that one Which is you can see the gray Gable structure. It's the middle column right side or sorry middle middle row right side on that same page and then similarly the Moorhead Manor bed and breakfast on the third row left column those are Potentially within the historic overlay of Moorhead Hill, I'm not familiar with the exact land boundaries of Moorhead Hill So I can't say whether or not they're Part of this overlay but Those are the ones that are inside the neighborhood. Yeah for reference. We took all of these pictures like on a walk in our neighborhood And We saw we saw a lot that had like similar to the style we're proposing with the like little a frame and then like the big bump outs So while they may I don't like I said, we're not 100% sure which ones are historic Which ones are not this was ours was to be a congruent with what you would see walking around the neighborhood This is Commissioner Bouchard again that picture in the middle on the right. That's a that's an ADU not So there is a garage that is that is to the left side Okay, and so there is a There aren't very many in Moorhead Hill. I think if I look by and large the neighborhood is still There's a lot of renovated but there are lots of garages. So I felt like this was Sort of a fringe case in regards to that but As Nikki mentioned the others that are pictured here are all within walking distance of our house So many of these are in the Birch Avenue neighborhood or Trinity Park and on Watts Avenue the Moorhead Hill Bed and Breakfast Picture I might have misheard Was that the bottom left-hand corner of the first page of these pictures? Yes, it's the yellow Gamble ADU that you can see with the green roof. Yes That's the ADU And that one is on vickers vickers, okay? I mean Just going off of what my eyes are seeing. I mean we have Windows on on this one which would suggest that It may be a NADU The other two pictures we looked at that appear to be in Moorhead Hill and That you highlighted with orange boxes. I can't tell whether or not. They're actually dwelling units or just garages the the first one in the yes the one that Carla is highlighting now that one is Certainly an ADU from the look of it, but it is again to the right and rear of the property So without knocking on the door and asking for permission to sure Investigate I can't say for sure, but it is it's filled like sideways and it has like a porch And you can barely see in the picture But I'd like a little garage door in front and then like a little house in the back Thank you, those are the questions I had Any other questions from any other commissioners? hearing none Are there any other Speakers who would like to speak for or against this case Seeing and hearing none. We will close the public hearing and discuss Amongst the commissioners. I'm gonna go ahead and put vice chair ghouls be on the spot I know that he had some concerns At the last hearing so did Commissioner Johnson Did you all have some observations about what we've heard? Um, no, I I think I appreciate the effort in reducing the scale and Looking to forms that are more congruent with what we see in historic neighborhoods and some more Thought put into you how the how the roof was handled John April, I don't know if you would have anything to add I Completely agree with you Andy you said everything that I was going to say I appreciate the effort Any other thoughts and comments? Hearing none. Do we have any recommendations from staff? Carla Rosenberg planning department staff would recommend approval of the application as revised. Thank you, Carla Do we have a motion? I'm happy to give a motion, but I think I was having issues downloading this morning If someone can bring the motion back up this screen. I'm happy to read that for us Yeah, I don't think any of us actually had access to this Tell you what I've got a printout, so I'm happy to yeah, I mean from the printout. Thanks, man Going on 19th century here. All right. Um, the Durham Historic Preservation Commission finds that in the case CoA 2 1 0 0 0 0 8 709 Shepherd Street new construction of accessory structure The applicant is proposing to construct a new two-story accessory structure at the end of the existing gravel driveway on the right side of the house The structure will measure 20 feet by 35 feet in area and nearly 23 feet in height It will be set back at least 12 feet from the home's rear deck and three feet from the side lot line The structure will be constructed with seven-titious fiberboard siding One over one triple grid simulated divided light wood windows fiber fiberglass Entry doors asphalt roof shingles and a brick veneer foundation A cedar toned treated wood staircase with black aluminum balusters will lead from grade to the second story An H back unit will be installed at the rear of the accessory structure And five wall sconces two salvage from the primary structure in three matching fixtures salvaged elsewhere Will be installed to the side of each entry door and the garage door Therefore the conclusion of law is that the proposed addition and alterations are consistent with the historic character and qualities of the historic district And are consistent with the historic properties local review criteria specifically those listed in the staff report And the Durham Historic Preservation Commission approves the certificate of appropriateness for case coa 21 0 0 0 0 8 709 shepherd street new construction of accessory structure with the following conditions one The improvements shall be substantially consistent with the plans and testimony presented to the commission at this commission hearing and attached to the coa To the improvements may require additional approvals from other city or county departments or state or local agencies The applicant is responsible for obtaining all required approvals relating to building construction site work and work in the right of way And three a compliance inspection shall be performed immediately upon completion of the work approved herein second We can have a roll call, please Yeah chair chair peshard approved uh commissioner de berry approved commissioner fieselman approved uh vice chair bullsby approved commissioner hamilton approved commissioner johnson approved commissioner craig is commissioner craig are joined yet um commission waiters commission waiters approved motion passes seven zero Thank y'all very much uh for all of your hard work on this and and best of luck to you as you fill this adu Thank you all Okay, that is going to take us to our next case do we need to um Bring in those participants All registered participants should be in attendance Hey, i'm here. Thank you so much. We will now hear case coa 21 0 0 012 804 hermitage court drive additions and modifications Before we hear from staff, is there any one of our commissioners who may have a conflict of interest with respect to this case? If not, then let's proceed with swearing in of anyone who plans to speak for this case About to give in the public hearing proceeding for today's case is the truth by your own knowledge or by information in boy Yes And mr. Thompson, am I pronouncing that correctly? That's right. Terrific. Do you consent to Presenting your case today via this virtual platform? I do Wonderful. Thank you very much We may now proceed with the staff summary Carla Rosenberg planning department. This is case coa 21 0 0 12 804 hermitage court drive addition and modifications the applicant journey to design build represented by steven thompson It's the owners are derrick robert hower and christina gene hower. It's located Between shepherd street and hermitage court drive Where they meet at university drive zoned residential suburban 20 And this is a historic landmark. It's the cr harris house So i'd like to introduce the staff report into the record The applicant made known that he has actually some minor revisions so we're Not able to show the new drawings. Um, the commission can decide whether they are able to envision those changes Enough to approve the case or if it would need to be continued. So I'd like to introduce the current staff report into the record and invite mr. Thompson to present his case All right. Thanks, carlo Am I able to control this in any way or do I have to direct you what page to go to? You can direct me. Okay So If you're looking at the staff report Let's scroll down to the plans. It's going to be The easiest to start at the 26 in the staff report Um, could you give me the drawing number? 8202 Yeah, this one right here So we're actually going to scale back the changes you can see on the far right We propose a new window as a new single window right there six over six On the far right. We're actually going to leave an existing window in place there So that's that's one change And then as you go to the left you've got the bank of four doors To the left of that is a new proposed mud room with a door and a window We're actually not proposing doing that mud room anymore Instead we would like to put a window On the left side of that bump out. So The bump out containing those those four doors We would want to put a window on the side of that instead of doing the mud room and That window would be a six over six similar to what's shown in this drawing And then it would have side lights on either side of it Which would also have the simulated divided light Of the same scale as what we're seeing in this photo So that that's the extent of the changes To these plans these plans also contain Uh, the new garage door on the far left side of the drawing We do still propose installing a new garage door there and then The changes to the garage apartment in the back as well This is commission. Johnson. Could you repeat those changes one more time since it's not written it anywhere? I would like to just jot them down for my memory. Yeah for sure. So On the far right where that single six over six window is Located and labeled as new window. We're going to leave an existing window in place And then we are not proposing doing the mud room anymore Instead of the mud room. We would do a six over six window On the left side of that bump out And that six over six window would have side lights on either side of it That would also be simulated divided light and then everything else would be in keeping with the plans So just for clarification. Mr. Thompson. This is um chair bouchard again That new window would basically be adjacent to or near an exterior door to the back that is off of the Hall on the existing floor plan Uh, yes, I believe we can see that if we scroll up the existing plan Which would be a zero two two And yeah, so you can see that adjacent door and actually we're proposing to replace that door With one to match the the adjacent doors there So it would be a 15 light Wood interior fiberglass exterior Simulated divided light Marvin elevate door Well realizing as a a fine line between clarification questions and just substantive questions I I I suppose I should ask if you have anything else that you'd like to present before I open up the the floor to commissioner questioning um The uh the garage door, I think I mentioned this in the application but It's a steel garage door Um, I believe there's an image of it in the In the application Believe there's a a cut sheet of the windows as well Yeah, so that's a garage door We're eliminating that round window And then there's a cut sheet for the doors and windows in there as well so I don't have the um The side lights for the the new window that we're proposing but it would be Uh, basically the the same look and size of that window that we're looking at now And we just have side lights basically equivalent to The width of those lights And then the dividers would be at the same intervals as as those lights that we're looking at there with the Yeah, commissioner johnson with the new side lights. Um, also come from marvin windows Yep, exactly. It'll be with, uh, one unit all together at the factory Katie Johnson, so you said you're getting rid of the Circular window. Are you replacing it with another window or is it just going to be citing? Uh, so that circle window Has shown in the application is in the mud room, which is going away all together But the window i'm proposing with the side lights uh would be um If you're looking at this right side elevation it'd be Kind of in that same location, but not on the mud room Edition it would be on the existing house So on the left side wall Uh, if you're looking at this elevation of the rear of the house See where the proposed mud room meets the Kind of the bump out with the four doors So it would be on that exterior wall So facing the same way that round window is facing Carla Rosenberg cleaning department. So just to reiterate, um, if you can envision, um, we can Adjudicate today, but if you have any trouble envisioning what is being described you do have the option of continuing I think we'll probably have that discussion. Um, and I think that's Potential option, uh for consideration. Let me ask this question I think I know the answer to it. Mr. Thompson. This is um chair bouchard again When the mud room was Going to be part of this program A window would have been removed From the existing structure, correct? Yes And that window is still being removed as part of the revised plan. Um, let me verify that Hang on for a minute You're referring to the window to the left of the exterior door Uh, yes, you're looking on a Zero 22 again You said Hey zero 22 Yes Yeah, so that window will stay That window will stay. Okay. Yeah In the door will be replaced. Okay Yeah and if the uh window with the side lights is a sticking point for the commission we'd be Willing to forgo that all together if uh I think rather than continue this until next month, we'd be willing to skip that window altogether Do any other commissioners have Questions for mr. Thompson This ain't equal to be um mr. Thompson The the proposal for the new windows, uh the the three I'm looking at your your new elevation on a 202 The the three windows that are ganged together As part of the new proposal it appears that they are going to be at a different head height than the rest Of the Existing windows is that the case? Uh, it does show it more in alignment with the door than the The one existing window that we're proposing to keep Um, I don't actually know How they align with the rest of the windows in the space on other walls Um, yeah, so all I can say is it looks like they're aligned with the head height with the door So in keeping the new Are keeping that one window to the right of those you'll have have Uh a misalignment Yeah, and if if that's a sticking point for the commission I I think the clients would be willing to replace that window if needed Or bring it into alignment with the new windows That's all I've got Thank you, Andy any other commissioners Questions from mr. Thompson If not, then is anyone else present who would like to speak for or against the case? Seeing nobody else we can close the public hearing and discuss Amongst the commissioners, um I'm gonna open the floor. I'm gonna I'm gonna hold off and making comments until I hear from others It's Andy, um You know, I can envision the changes to this proposal the The where I'm finding the issue is just how Various things are resolved Um because of the changes to the proposal things like the door are shooting at the head heights Things like the window with the with sidelights how that interacts with the adjacent door and how I um To me might change the overall rhythm of the house all together because I'm I'm thinking about the section of f two were When windows and openings on non character defining non street facing elevations are modified add it or remove retain the overall rhythm and individual proportion of window openings on the structure um So right now I'm having a hard time to see how that resolves and and Satisfies that piece of the guidelines Mr. Gillespie, can I ask a follow-up question to that? Sure, see Is it the sidelights that? Call into question the rhythm of that window and if so Yeah, I think I need to see it Yeah, I think I might need to see it. Um You know, I don't see The the closest thing to sidelights I see on the house at least of these drawings are that would be the window above um That doesn't quite go with the rest of the house to begin with but um But also just the interaction with the door, you know, I don't know how close it will be to that existing door um When when it you know if I'm looking at it in the The three windows that are gained together And adjacent to the the new door In that kitchen. I mean those those almost give a ribbon ribbon effect um A larger opening which is which is nice, but I'm I don't see very much on this house Uh in in consistency um So for me, I I I think I would need to see it Or it'd be more helpful, you know, whether whether the sidelights were there or not um I'll tell you I think it would be of interest interesting to know if The window that is going to be removed from that kitchen could be reused uh to the left In lieu of buying a new new marvin window But I also don't know what the existing windows are So that one that you're referring to is from an addition um I don't know the age of the addition, but it's not terribly old. It's probably from Kind of shooting from the hip here at say 80s or 90s So I don't believe that window has historic value But uh, yeah, I think we could either forego the sidelights or um You know skip the window all together if it's if it's giving the commission pause The addition is from 2005. I'm being told got it. Thank you Any other thoughts commissioners? I will Mention my own hesitancy At approving these revised Concepts Without revised plans without revised details um I'm concerned about the presidential value of this commission Making Really significant changes to the Recommended motion When there are so many changes Uh to what has been presented to us before today um Especially for landmark properties. I think that's the the piece of this. I'm having the the hardest time to reconcile is um Effectively rewriting What we would be approving Without having the benefit of of plans and details um To to fully evaluate Things um in light of these What I would classify as and I I invite folks to challenge me on this characterization is as fairly significant revisions from what we were provided In advance of today's hearing and so I I personally have some concerns. I'm also curious to know um Whether or not the deletion of the mudroom um in any way Affects whether or not this is even a major versus a minor Coa, it's probably still a major but it's it's a question I have for staff as to whether or not the the nature of the The coa changes if that addition is not um being added to the structure So those are two thoughts I had um about why I'm hesitant about moving forward today This is commissioner neberry. I I agree with our chair um Just a combination of a landmark highly visible a significant home Um lots of changes I would feel more comfortable and I I kind of feel like the owners would get A better product at the end if we did continue it and allow them to make those changes and come back to us Uh, I I agree commissioner johnson. I agree with my colleagues. Um, I can see if it was one minor Switch up, but I think there's a a lot of small things kind of equal Something bigger for me and I just rather have something more concrete to review I agree, thank you. I'm curious if there's a countervailing view among any of the commissioners Uh commissioner brashard, uh, absolutely not everyone has been very clear that clarity Is needed and would be appropriate Um, so I agree with you sir and all others on that that the clarity of what Changes have been presented Could be done so more appropriately Ask a question Sure, please Are there any thoughts on whether the removal of the blood room? Uh still requires a A major coa for this project parlor reservoir planning department, um The mud room doesn't currently exist. You were proposing to construct it which required the major coa. I'm looking over The staff report. I don't think Any of the windows that you were altering were original to the house and so I do think This could be done that portion could be done as a minor coa For the accessory structure, you were changing the roof form you were adding A gable dormer if you were adding any sort of square footage You're also changing the roof form, which does require a major coa I think the accessory structure Does require the coa, but um the major coa But I think the changes that you're making to the house Would only require a minor coa so long as everything meets the criteria, which by review right removing that window I feel confident That you meet the criteria. I think the round window was the main thing that I Had had concerns about in the original application Could we Could we Wait on the garage work because um, there's a high likelihood that we weren't going to do The garage as part of this project anyway As we got farther into the budget and cost and and things like that There's a possibility of phasing that so Could we pull that out of the coa application and just focus on the Kind of the doors and windows Well, I think that the concern of the commission was being able to adjudicate today without having the revised drawings so If this can in fact be a minor coa for the the modifications that you're making to the primary structure Then how do you feel about resuming and just adjudicating on the accessory structure and it would have to be a conditional Approval to remove all items pertaining to the primary structure. And then you would submit a new minor application addressing The changes that you're making to the primary structure Anybody can step in and and tell me I'm wrong about that, but I think that's what I'm seeing That sounds fine to me if if the primary structure could be handled with a minor You aren't adding any new Square footage now that you're not having the mudroom None of the windows that you're proposing to remove are original to the landmark structure And provided that all of the changes that you are making do meet the criteria Then It should be a minor coa Krista kukro city attorney's office um I was wondering carla, you know, I'm thinking of sort of what you're describing and the process Then that would need to follow for for the board to take action Um, do you think given the question of sort of whether it would meet the criteria? Do you think it makes sense to For the commission to continue The case or continue a portion of the case today and then you and the applicant can discuss that and perhaps That can get pulled out as a minor coa. I think that's exactly right I think continue it as is and if we can get the primary structure Changes approved as a minor coa before it reaches the commission next month than at next month's meeting. It would only be the garage um item left and the accessory structure item left and then the applicant can Adjust as needed Continue at another month if there's not time pressure until the application is Has it and then and then if there are If there are problems with what's being proposed to the minor structure that I don't believe I can Um, approve at a minor level then, you know, it hasn't been pulled from the report. It's still available for review next month And we are okay Uh, not pursuing the changes to the garage in today's meeting. So we're okay just Uh, basically withdrawing our case and pursuing minor approval for the primary house Well, my recommendation would be to not withdraw Um, just to give you sort of maximum flexibility over the next several weeks to see how things play out um, if you elect to withdraw, um, the the major uh coa with respect to the garage and that's that's fine, but I think Um, the cleanest process for us today is to simply continue Give you the opportunity mr. Thompson to work with karla. Um to see whether or not a minor coa Will handle the proposed revisions to the primary structure and give you time During that time to determine whether or not you even want to move forward with the garage okay Karla was from the planning department. I agree if you withdraw You have it and you decide to come back in the future the application would have to be substantially different The proposal would have to be substantially different Yeah sounds good Well, I will go ahead and then in move uh to continue uh case coa 21 00012 uh to the um There with me May 4 2021 meeting of this commission Second Clerk galley if we can have a roll call please care for shard Uh approve the motion to continue commissioner debingery approved uh commissioner fieselman approved fair ghoulsby approved commission uh commissioner hamilton approved commissioner johnson approved okay uh commissioner waders commission await is approved okay mission passes mr. Thompson thanks for working with us on this and um Best wishes to you and and to the owners as you finalize the plans and work towards approval Appreciate your time. Thank you You will now hear case coa 21 00013 2207 inglewood avenue demolition of primary structure Do we have the participants Brought into the hearing room it looks like we do Before we hear from staff and swearing our Speakers is there anyone of our commissioners who may have a conflict of interest in hearing this case Hearing none and let's please proceed with the swearing in of anyone who plans to speak In connection with this case to give in the public hearing proceeding for today's case Is the truth by your own knowledge or by information and belief That's where Tom Miller I do Kelly Coyette I do Renny Bellavik I do Frank Levy I do And before we proceed and for my own benefit Um, what which speakers are speaking for this case and which speakers will be speaking Against this case if any Uh, Frank Levy is speaking for the case On black John black John black John black for Kelly Coyette for Courtney bellavik for And tom miller I will be speaking for doi Okay Thank you for that Okay All the participants have been sworn. I do need to ask each of you for a verbal response in Answering this question does everyone Here today Speaking for this case or for delay in this case agree Consent to this case being heard By this remote platform I do I do I do I do Okay, I think we have all five. Thank you. Well, and I do Ah, thank you. Mr. Miller We may now proceed with the staff summary Carlo Rosenberg planning department. This is case coa 21 000 13 2207 angle wood avenue demolition of a primary structure The applicant is riverbank construction represented by john black The owner is get gregory mollendore It's located on the south side of angle wood avenue between oakland and rose hill avenues It's zoned residential urban five and it's a contributing structure to the wadts hill and dell historic district um, so Again demolition of a contributing primary structure. I'd like to introduce the staff report into the record and invite Mr. Black to present his case Thank you John black of riverbank construction This is the first for me of all the years that i've been Bringing projects before the hbc. This is the first time i've ever sought approval for the demolition of a contributing structure um, and I just want to assure you all that Neither riverbank nor the homeowner is necessarily excited about the fact that this house has been so neglected in this In the condition that it's in that demolition is even a consideration I mean The owner's daughter kelly do yet Who's our client she has lived next door to this house for many years And uh, perhaps more than anyone would love to see this property actually contribute to the character and quality of the neighborhood Um, and this is why her family ended up purchasing the property And I just wanted to point out and kind of reiterate that miss coyette is not Some out-of-town developers looking to make a buck, you know, she's part of the community and has been for years um And actually since buying this house last august Her family has spent a lot of time Considering the best way to address the condition of the house that we're talking about today As well as who to partner with to bring new life into it And I think the fact that that riverbank has restored a large number of homes in the watsill and dale neighborhood Is really one of the reasons we were entrusted with this task and hopefully Our reputation suggests that we're not enemies of preservation by any means Um, however, of course, we are here asking for approval to demolish this house But I just want to say it's because we believe it's the best way to serve the owner and and provide a safe high quality home Um, so in the application materials that you've already read through I mean, we've alluded to both the structural damage and extremely high presence of mold in the house And Both of those are largely a result of water issues um, both water coming in from a roof that has needed repair for many years and also Groundwater issues from drainage on the site um, the owner miss goya The resident of the house next door. She's made us aware of a damaged Stormwater culvert that actually runs between 22 of five Englewood where she lives in 22 of seven The house that we're talking about And as a result of this damaged stormwater pipe, there's large amounts of water That are constantly presenting a threat to both structures Um, and obviously miss goya could talk about the tens of thousands of dollars that they've spent trying to mitigate water damage at her house 22 of five But it continues to be a concern as long as that culvert culvert is not properly addressed And obviously the previous owner of 22 of seven never cared to address the issue So the foundation walls of that house have continued to shift and settle and water has continued to collect in the basement And there's even sinkholes in the yard between the two houses so now That we're presented with this opportunity to help her to partner with her to address the condition of this house We actually have the opportunity to address the stormwater problem Um, in a more permanent way provide a more permanent solution Um, and in order to do so we're looking at having to excavate this damaged culvert in order to replace it And this sort of major site disturbance is obviously more easily done more cost effectively done If that house is not there Because then an excavator would have adequate access to the site and and easily dig up that culvert Obviously when looking at the requests for demolition from the opponent's perspective If there are opponents, um, I can certainly understand skepticism or fear That removing this old house from the neighborhood is going to negatively impact the neighborhood And result in the construction of some offensive, you know tasteless monstrosity But I just want to reiterate riverbank is not just some builder, you know, we've lived in this community We do live in the community. We have over a decade of experience working on houses in the neighborhood That provide context and I think should give confidence That we'll replace this house with something historically appropriate in both appearance and scale And we know this to be kelly and noah boyettes Primary objectives as well. And that's why we've you know, feel comfortable bringing this before you to today. They've demonstrated Their commitment to this by bringing their intentions before as many of their neighbors that that would hear them And so with that I'm certainly happy to entertain any questions or hear from anyone else. Thank you Do any of the other speakers for the case wish to add anything to mr. Block's comments? Uh, yes, frank levy We're uh, we're at my wife and I are 2114 angle wood avenue, which is about a dozen houses up and across the street from the building in question here Um, uh, miss go ahead contacted me because we purchased our house in conjunction with river bank who then did a substantial renovation That was approved by this committee Um, and because miss go ahead and decided on using river banks. She wanted to uh, know about what process we had been through I I just want to make one point If you just take the street view of 2207 Uh, you might believe that it might be a candidate for renovation But I've been inside 2207 and it is much much worse shape Uh, then the house that we purchased at the time that we purchased it our house Was in serious disrepair when we purchased it, but it was livable 2207 is in no way livable the walls are covered with mold The floors are unsafe to walk on in many spots. You can see standing water in the basement through one of the holes in the floor Um, I'm not a professional home builder But to my eye demolishing this house and building on the site will produce a much better outcome for the neighborhood than trying to disinfect and Renovate the current structure Thank you Thank you, mr. Levy any of the other speakers Who are in favor of this case anything to add before I open it up for commissioners to ask questions of the proponents Yes, I would just like to add As far as the fungal growth goes throughout the home I just want to make sure it is known that it is important for most of the building materials to be removed Um, given the nature of fungal growth that was present throughout the home on the ceilings The floors and the drywall it is needed to be removed. Um Fungal growth is deeply embedded into the materials so they cannot simply be cleaned We need to remove all those building materials and sand down the existing structure of the home as far as the wood goes Thank you for that miss go ahead anything that you'd like to add um, yes, I would I I um Wanted to tell all of you just a little bit more about who our family is What our intentions were in buying 2207 and what the values are that are that we all share that are driving um The decisions and thinking that we've done and continue to do about 2207 I'm worried that my my presentation is a little bit more. Um like personal then Anything I've heard so far today but um, but I do think that it is an important context and so I'd like to ask For just 10 minutes of your time to present That information about who we are and where we're coming from if it's okay Sure So I did I I don't have new information to present like, you know pictures of houses or plans or anything but You know, I'm a teacher by trade and an artist and um, I spend a lot of time studying um, learning effectiveness and so I made a power, uh, you know, google slide presentation But I guess I'm not allowed to share my screen Um, I just did it for all your benefit so that it would be a little easier to follow along with and remember What I'm saying if I have permission to share this powerpoint. I would love to but if it's not okay. I understand Yeah, let's just move forward if we could So no sharing. Okay. Yeah, I don't think we have that capability. Okay, that's fine um, so basically there are five things that I want to touch on I want to introduce you to Um, our family, which is me my husband and my father I want to talk about our relationship to 2207 Englewood Why we bought 2207 Englewood The values that have guided our journey so far with this house and what our vision for this house is So to summarize our intentions for 2207 Englewood are to honor the beauty of our neighborhood and the history of 2207 while also prioritizing a reasonable safe and farsighted approach As permanent residents of Englewood, we have always tried to balance our own needs with the needs of our neighbors With 2207 we have done a lot of thinking reflection research and listening to experts and to our neighbors to find this balance So introducing our family and who we are My dad is Greg mollendor. He's a 75 year old retired california highway patrol motorcycle officer He's also a vietnam vet who was a lieutenant um in a land clearing unit And he raised me his daughter By himself and has remained unmarried. Um, we actually almost lost my dad last year to an aneurysm We had no idea where he was because I usually talk to him every day But he just was like mia for two weeks. Um, and it ended up that he was in the hospital and nearly died from this aneurysm um, he lives in san diego currently in the same house that he bought in 1975 And he's just he's a really sweet and thoughtful person. Um, and values the humble down to earth life And Excuse me um for me, um To tell you a little bit about myself. I'm a 40 year old writing analyst I used to teach and was part of the faculty union and the Duke writing program I earned my master's degree from the school of the art institute of chicago and then worked at story core during the recession In 2007, I flew to birmingham, alabama and drove straight to kelly anglin park That was my first visit to the south in the beginning of my journey with anti-racism For two years. I visited the south on a bi-monthly basis When I first visited Durham, I knew it was home I was taken not only by its beauty, but I was drawn to its diversity And it's incredibly unique race and civil rights history Um, since 2014 I've been a mentor with duke athletics where I support student athletes and football and basketball With their academic and personal learning particularly as it applies to anti-racism African-american studies and understanding the relationship between capitalism and racism And my students and I spend a lot of time discussing Durham's black history A lot of them, especially the football guys are here for four years And I find it's one of the most important things I can do to help them Know about the city that they're going to call home for four years instead of just, you know, staying on campus and Focusing, you know only on that My husband Noah is a 44 year old measurement ink employee and he's a flash cross drummer He's been a Durham resident since 2001 and earned his bsw from central in 2016 He grew up at contracting sites and has 25 years of professional construction and carpentry experience He's also been doing professional landscape maintenance and repair since since i'm sorry 2003 He and Durham has put in over 500 volunteer hours with populations affected by poverty aging and developmental disability So that's who we are Um our relationship to 2207 Englewood We've lived next door since 2013 and we have proven our stance on historic preservation We're a long lasting commitment to the historical preservation of our home at 2205 Um our family are friends of Rick Hanford who lived in the house next door at 2207 for a very long time Rick had approached my dad years ago about buying the house, but his sisters weren't ready to sell at that time And then finally in 2021 he was ready to leave My dad had planned to buy the house for $200,000 but in the bidding war that ensued he went up to a painful $260,000 bid to beat other parties Those other parties were large corporate Contracting companies and flippers Um, so why we bought 2207 Englewood is that 2205 is our forever home my husband's and mine We moved here because over the years we've lived in and loved historic homes for their character in history Um and because our main competition was flippers and large contracting companies We knew the risk was very high of another large modern multiple residents building going up if we did not win the bid My dad plans to age gracefully in North Carolina at 2207 Englewood where we can care for him if and when needed And the fourth reason why we bought the house next door is because the severe and chronic chronic water intrusion from the broken culvert between the two houses Will continue to threaten damage and incur foundation repair costs for both houses We knew the problem would be more challenging to fix if a flipper or large contractor motivated solely by profit and not longevity bought 2207 We've actually spent over 20,000 dollars since 2014 on repairing our own foundation and basement and it's pretty much just Without actually addressing the culvert in the way it needs to be addressed It's a losing battle and we're continuing to we're going to continue to have to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to keep the to to keep the water from just Ruining our foundation So And then the values that guide our journey with 2207 Englewood They are quality longevity and integrity So in terms of quality I think that john spoke really well to this that we were extremely thoughtful about who we We went with in deciding to work with We spoke with many other companies Many of whom made hasty knee jerk determinations about the house, but riverbank proved that they were very thoughtful They put in the time to research Balance options and talk us through everything. Um, and like he said, it's not an easy decision to make To think about demolishing the house It's really sad and I think that But I think that demolishing although it is a really hard decision to arrive at it feels like the right one. Um so, um In terms of longevity Our family believes that when you do things right and you do them well using quality materials and building off of sound design You get longevity Like I said, we don't like band-aids on broken bones And you will never find us spending money on the short term when there is a long term solution within reach Which has not been the case with the culvert um The value of integrity In the context of both 2205 and 2207 we define integrity as respect for our neighborhood and for our neighbors It means honoring the historical value of 2207 and the stories of the people who have lived there Ever since we had the notion of buying 2207 it was our vision to preserve as much as possible But honestly the process of peeling back the layers in the last year has been full of uncertainty In terms of the upper level of the house. We hope some salvage is possible, but the basement is another story Um the foundation i'm sorry And lastly in our definition of integrity. We believe Is empathy it challenges us to step outside of ourselves and to separate the desires We might project onto this building instead looking at the house as an entity all its own with its own history So this idea of empathy with houses reminds me of my dad every time my dad travels back to the east coast He visits the home. He grew up in and which his parents owned until he died until they died Every time he takes a photograph of it as if it was an old relative or friend I think the way my dad is with his childhood house and the way he is with the house He's lived in since the 1970s must be genetic, but it's something noa and I share as well We have this quote hanging on the bulletin board in our kitchen where we see it every day it says There is so much that a renovation can teach us about respect and empathy The weaving of our needs into those of another even if the other is made of wood perhaps especially so A house is a quiet partner. You have to listen carefully Even though this quote names renovation. I think the idea can and should be applied in cases of demolition as well I don't know how many of you have ever been faced with the difficulty of making end of life decisions for another person But when it's time to let go, you know, you just do and knowing that means that you've listened carefully Now we've been living next door to rick and to this house at 2207 for nearly eight years Our houses are twins when it comes to the flooding may endure a hundred days out of the year And we know what that's been like for 2205. It's been hard and it's been expensive Since rick moved away, we've been an even more intimate conversation with 2207 Listening carefully as it were for that past year We've had every sort of expert in there who was willing to step past the threshold And once you're inside the painful experience of poverty and disability is palpable And the prolonged and extreme neglect the house has suffered has descended like a cancer into its belly The foundation of the house is as close to a metaphorical representation of illness and more accurately death as you can get It is literally rotten. It has been drowning amid the sludge of storm water and mold for decades So, yes, we can put this house on life support or blast the cancer on what's left of the spongy bones and failed organs with Mediation, but it seems either unnatural or cruel Some might cheerily refer to this as restoration or renovation or say, it's how we breathe new life into this old house From our intimate knowledge living next door. Those all sound like naive euphemisms The reality is that anything that falls short of completely rebuilding the foundation is more like an unnatural corpse revival What you'd ultimately end up with is a zombie or perhaps an uncannily beautiful vampire Rick and the days leading up to his move repeated again and again that he hoped he would just tear the house down He knows her better than anyone and as I said when it's time to let go, you know, you just do Anyone who thinks or says otherwise is guilty of a common and easy mistake The mistake of just plain not listening If the way a person relates to houses reflects at all on their capacity for empathy I'll just say I'd hate to have any one of those people as my medical power of attorney Finally our vision for 2205. I have photographs, but I can't show them Sorry for 2207 um We love old houses. We've never wanted to live anywhere or have anything to do with any house unless it's an old house The idea that we are thinking about building a new construction is very strange and filled with a lot of melancholy and sadness But um, you know, we want to build something that looks The actual there's there's a house for a long time that I've loved because I love looking at This old house magazine watching tv shows about old houses And there's one particular house in Minneapolis called the necomus house. Um, which has a It's almost exactly the same footprint as rick's house. It's the same square footage Same chimney placement. Um It's not like exactly what we want to build but we want to build something um with river banks guidance that Is as similar to rick's house as we can get and um And that really is something that our neighbors and that we can be proud of and that makes our neighborhood More beautiful and shows the love that we have for our history and for our neighborhood So that's all I have to say. Thank you so much for listening. I know it was maybe an esoteric presentation But I really appreciate the opportunity to speak Well, there's a motion here that's that's apparent. We appreciate your thoughts and comments miss goyette Clearly this property means a lot to you Um, with that being said, uh, we have to focus on what our jurisdiction is here. Um, and the criteria That um, apply to that jurisdiction. Um, we need to ask Uh, some questions of the proponents and then move on to, uh, mr. Miller's presentation about why he believes a delay Is appropriate with respect to the demolition which really, um, speaks to our our soul Um role in this process we cannot stop demolition from happening, but we, um, Can evaluate whether or not it's appropriate to impose a delay of up to 365 days and so Um, commissioners, do you have any questions, uh, for any of the proponents? Um, particularly any questions that might Be directed at the the the issue of whether or not a 365 day delay or up to a 365 day delay Um, something we should consider what um what kind of professional um of the dawn black Is a qualified, um Contractor but when we talk about mold and mildew What are the professional qualifications of the team that has reviewed it to? Speak as experts on this matter Um, Courtney who spoke earlier is whom we hired to, uh Investigate the mold issue and their quality in the house Um, if I can give the floor to her to receive your questions If they're related to that matter Yes, so Excuse me. I have an environmental science degree Um from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Um, that is my formal education and I am also under an umbrella certification from the owner of Miramold LLC and have been underneath her training for Roughly a little over two years. Um, so those are my specific certifications For the analysis of the microbiological Um results All right. Thank you. Mm-hmm And if I can add, um The growth that was found on the microbiological slides They're analyzed by a third party lab. They are not analyzed by myself Um, I take the samples and then they are given to a third party to analyze to Restrict a conflict of interest Um, those fun growths found were aspergillus penicillium and stachy botchers Um Aspergillus and penicillium They are found repeatedly to cause cancer in the kidney and the liver As well as being in immunosuppressants and binding to dna protein synthesis Stachy botchers has been found to bind to dna and RNA protein synthesis as well as being an immunosuppressant Thank you For the clarification that helps. Thanks. Of course Courtney, I have just a quick, uh, response to that. Do you believe in your professional opinion that? um If if the stimulation is delayed The all the different types of organisms you listed do they tend to have an effect to neighboring properties or Anybody walking near near them or is it mostly contained in the building? No, so these are airborne spores. So The longer you leave them the more prolific they'll become. Um As a lot of people have experienced, um fungal growth can happen very quickly Um, you know, you can go to bed take a shower before bed one night wake up and you have fun growth in your shower all of a sudden Um happens very quickly. So and with the moisture of this home Including the lack of air conditioning right now and the heat and humidity of summer that is about to be in north carolina um These spores are going to become very prolific and they can spread to neighboring buildings, um it's not very likely but The longer they're allowed to become prolific And the further they are able to get then I mean if there's any type of building material left outside of this home If someone it takes anything up. That's garbage wise that was left Improperly disposed of it can spread that way. Um, so yes, I do think it can spread and cause damage to other nearby structures So potential public health risk. Yes, potentially This is chair bouchard again. Uh one question for mizgoy yet one question for mr. Black. Um for for mizgoy yet Are are uh you and your husband or your your father incurring costs related to 2207 beyond Property taxes and insurance. Um those costs can be financial or otherwise. And then the question for mr. Black is going to be um absent complete demolition of 2207 Is there anything to be done with respect to this? Damage stormwater drainage pipe that would alleviate the flooding issues at 2205 um, so I'll answer your question that um, you can't really separate the issue of the stormwater from The damage that 2207 is causing to 2205 because if you look at the line of where the the creek that is Um, that doesn't have anywhere to go It's right in between the property lines It starts in the back of our property and then it goes right along the property line But it's mostly on ricks on the property of 2207 And it is such I mean we've gotten quotes On that in the past. That's a $20,000 job at least To um excavate the culvert with the house standing next door um, you can't if you imagine, you know the space between the two houses we've measured is 12 feet Wide and stretches 175 feet from the front of the property the back of the property that would need to be excavated If you even put the smallest bobcat in that space with a backhoe arm Just imagine even even with the smallest bobcat imaginable Having like the radius that you need to turn that around every time you scoop a piece of every time you scoop up a Clawful of dirt where are you going to put that dirt you have to Drive the bobcat all the way down to the front I mean it's you're talking about the difference of like weeks of labor versus days of labor And it's just it's prohibitively expensive You do it on our own And we just knew that if some contractor bought this house they We didn't we didn't know that this was an issue. It was so well concealed by the people who we bought this house from They like covered up sinkholes with rocks and cement and plant life Like and it was just a really bad surprise and one that you know We love this house in this neighborhood so much that we'll do Anything we can to stay here and then aside from just the property taxes in this house being something, you know My dad bid $260,000 on this house and we know that it's going to cost At least 500 to $700,000 to build a modest respectable home So we're right there at the just below the million dollar mark for this house and that is Maybe not the wisest investment, but what we're investing in is family and our neighborhood um And so paying property taxes on top of the house that we can't do anything with and then also having to incur you know when When the rain comes I mean a hundred days out of the year we we already have to remediate our basement again despite $20,000 across four repairs that we've had to do I mean I have like a five page long bulleted list of all the things that we've done digging W drains along You know the entire length of the crawl space putting in another sump an extra sump pump You know having the entire wall of our basement dimple boarded putting in a new um a new A full seal. I mean it's just I can't even begin. It's so to answer your question. We cannot separate the costs that we incur For 2207 standing there aside from the the health risk it poses to us being just 12 feet away from the two rooms We are in the three rooms running most of the time You can't you can't separate the broken culvert issue and the terrible flooding I wish I could show you a video I mean, I guess it's new information, but it's when you see it. It's moving I mean, it's 10 feet deep and it happens every time it rains. It's I wish I mean sorry 10 inches Ms. Go ahead. Let me just follow up with with one what what I hope is a quick question If this commission were to impose any delay Up to 365 days What beneficial use if any? Would would you or your father? Derive from 2207 During that delay We've already we've already done our due diligence talking to riverbank and you know, we'd like to be able to save Whatever we can from the house that salvageable like the chimney But I don't think you know, we've already gone down that road and we've we've put in the I mean I think you can probably tell that I'm a very research oriented person Um, and my husband is as well and we're not come. I mean he has a lifetime of experience with Building and with landscape. I mean, we're not going into this naive or um I mean, I just we The time that a delay Would Would provide. I mean, I guess that's not the right verb. I just It would be more of a hindrance. Um, and a It would be more of a hindrance and it and will cause more anxiety in terms of our own personal health Then it would then it would really help. I mean, would it be fair to say that you wouldn't derive any beneficial? Use from this property during the period of delay. Yes, that is absolutely correct. Yeah Any other commissioners with questions for the proponent before we turn to mr. Miller I asked a clarifying question The coa Says that this is a non contributing multifamily structure dating from 1978 The sale records on the property say it was built in 1925. Can somebody clarify? I think the thing that you're seeing about 1978 is referring to additions, but actually The land was purchased in 1925 and then I believe that the house was actually built in 1926 um So it is um It is a historic and contributing property. Yeah But uh commissioner fieselman, this is um chair bouchard again I I see exactly what you're referring to it looks like in our proposed motion There's a reference to it being a non contributing structure from 1978 Um, just for clarity, uh, carla, could you confirm that uh, this is in fact a property from the late 1920s That is contributing to the watts hillondale historic district So Rosenberg planning department that was what was stated in the um inventory and we derived that information to be from the tax record Or from the national register listing Great I may have shared the national register listing So confirmed This is contributing and from the late 1920s All right Yes, that's stated in the national register listing which I have on the screen right now. Um Late 1920s Okay, great. Thank you If there is nothing further for the proponents, I will give the floor to mr. Miller Mr. Miller, please proceed Thank you, mr. Chairman and members of the commission. My name is uh thomas r. Miller. I resided 11 10 virginia avenue in the watts hillondale Historic district around the corner from this property I've lived in Durham all of my 64 years and I've lived in this neighborhood for 38 years And in the district for all of its uh 20 year history It was part of the team that put the district Application together and I advocated for it with the Durham city council when it was created I am now a retired attorney, uh, but in my Um Professional life for 30 years with the attorney general's office. I headed up the real estate regulatory section and advised state agencies and their registers of deeds Uh about things relating to real estate regulation by cities and counties on matters relating to zoning and land use regulation Uh, I address you today as president of the historic preservation society of Durham You may know it better by its trade name preservation Durham um and Our board after having discussed this over the last few days urges you to impose a 365 delay day delay For the demolition of this property um I may excuse me So just to clarify There is an error in your uh materials provided by the staff with regard to the proposed motion That looks like that is information lingering from perhaps another case that got that didn't get deleted The house in question. I have uh examined the title of this property The house was built by a man named w e alley. He was president of the western lumber company He was also president of the Fidelity of the western branch of the fidelity bank He built this house in 1926 and invaded in december of that year to a man named cam Who was the uh radiologist? Uh, excuse me the rate the x-ray technician at the wad's hospital at that time Uh, and then it has passed along The house is a Three bedroom two bath house. However, when it was new it only had one bathroom As you can see from the photographs, uh, it's a wood frame construction clad with Lap siding It has a brick foundation And then on the side you have that very interesting brick chimney with the inset panel that is stuck out arched panel that is stuck of the chimney is in good condition. It's true It's not pulling away from the house Thanks to miss goyette. I had an opportunity to tour the house last friday with A member of our board who was a licensed contractor Aaron, I mean excuse me austin more who is With a gateway construction And we went through the house from top to bottom from the attic to the basement And looked at it very very carefully Although the house clearly has a lot of problems The exterior walls are in really good condition and i've heard a lot about the foundation today The house sits on a series of piers The foundation wall is a curtain Not necessary for holding the house up The all of those walls are true. They are here and there's some minor cracks. No Signs that any of those cracks are opening or closing or moving in any way They're the kind of cracks that you would find in the foundation of every house in the historic district Wadts Hillendale historic district So i'm not sure i understand when i went under the house and looked at the piers all the piers seem to be true The here and there on the exterior of the house that there i saw two rotted fascia boards The rest of the siding is Although the paint is peeling off of it. It's in pretty good condition There are two additions to the house, please if you'd stop on that one photo So there's one addition to the rear you see it here. This addition was probably from the 70s or 80s It's clad with masonite However, whoever designed the addition It's tied in really nicely and you have to get fairly close to it to realize it's not original to the house Also on the east side of the house There's a a bump out there that's uh from about the same period of time also clad masonite And is uh again so sensitively done That you have to get close to it to tell Well, we went all the way around the house and through it and so it paused there if you would Actually, I don't know who's showing these but pause there the water intrusion from the roof is coming in because the The roof of this house is a cottage plan. That means it is essentially got a long horizontal ridge line that runs parallel to the street Making the house purposefully appear to be a small cottage when in fact a great deal of the house Is located behind that ridge line This means that the house has those two valleys and because it has a gable projection out the front It has two more valleys there Whoever put the roof on this house when it was last re-roofed Wove the shingles in the valleys and did such a poor job. It is there where the water is coming in So these photographs do show you the worst places of deterioration and they are bad I don't want to downplay it And and in fact throughout the house, especially the ceilings and in the walls of the rooms that are under the valleys uh, there is a great deal of of fungal growth in the Uh, I believe the expert said drywall, but it's actually laughing plaster Um, and so that material is all terribly compromised in places, uh, the water is on the floor Where you can see wood floors Um, I mean they clearly are watermarked There are places that have carpet and I can't tell you what's happened to the floors under those areas All the case work in the house is in good condition, although it's grimy All the windows are original and appear to be good. All the doors are there and open and close I went into every room and when people other people were not in the rooms. I jumped up and down To see if there was any movement or sponginess in the floors. I could not find any if you go back to the picture you just showed No, the that one. No, you keep that one So here's a picture of the ceiling in the living room The flash around the chimney is leaking and it has caused this damage As you can see the laughing plaster is dramatically damaged and this has actually been pulled some of this has been pulled down It hasn't just fallen Uh, in order to get access to see what's going on. I mean it's the kind of thing I would do. I'm not I'm not criticizing anybody for making this Pulling this material down, but you can see the ceiling joists there They are in good shape. They are not deteriorated now I am sure in the roof structure of this house probably near those valleys There's certainly going to be some rotten decking. There's also probably going to be some rotten framing members up there That would have to be repaired or replaced But this house is not irredeemable. I mean it's terrible and it's horrible to believe that mr. Hanford was living in it And because I was his neighbor in an acquaintance of his and actually we were even in fourth grade together I feel bad about that because there he was And I did not realize he was living in such horrible conditions. I don't know what I would have done about it, but I As a member of the community I It's disturbing And it's in the house in the condition that you would not want anybody to live in it But when I have looked at the renovations that have been done in this district even by The folks at riverbank who by the way do excellent work and david barker was with us when we went through the house Uh, I have seen houses much worse Rehabilitated with coas from this commission And in fact, uh, just down the street just recently with a coa from this commission the house at 2004 englewood Was rehabilitated. It was in such terrible condition due to deterioration from moisture that Over half of the fabric of the building was removed And uh, so everything behind that was also a cottage roof house. Although a decade older than this Everything behind the the ridge was taken down so that only the front The front three walls the front wall and the two end walls Of the front of the house were standing and everything else was replaced the result though is a substantially Reconstructed property that presents its original historic front to the street The same sort of thing could be done here So this lot was laid out in 2014. The plat is uh recorded at uh plat book two pages 104 105 It's the englewood subdivision. It's a 50 by 150 foot lot. It is conforming to the r u2 Zoning and there's a lot of space. This house could be dramatically enlarged behind that ridge line and it is the kind of of of Addition that you have routinely approved for this type of house in the wats hillondale district And I believe it could could happen here uh in our conversations with mr parker and and Mr. Moore following our inspection We all agreed that That while it would be expensive this house could be rehabilitated and it could be extended Um So It so that enlarged it's a it's a 1926 house its interior Rooms are small anybody who would even if there was no moisture invasion Even if there was not infestation in certain walls in the ceiling with the mold, which is terrible Anybody who was going to rehabilitate this house would actually pull all of that material out under any circumstances With mold or without mold in order to rework the interior Now on a historic preservationist and I hate it when people do that But what people do on the insides of the houses that are in historic districts is up to them and outside The jurisdiction of the historic preservation commission and also out my outside my ability to comment As a participant in a proceeding like this, but I believe that this house is Imminently savable Let me talk about the basement a little bit unless you Get a mistaken understanding of what's going on this house actually is essentially a crawlspace house it has underneath it a Kind of a semi basement not in any way finished the space that is 14 by 20 feet Where the original boiler and coal storage were And then of course the the front there's a more modern furnace there now However, it has not worked in In some time that Space is underwater at one time had a sump pump and it's still there and the pipe that drained it Still sticks out into the driveway It hasn't operated in a long time. It's repairable. It's not the entire extent of this 1400 1500 square foot house. It's just that 14 by 20 foot space It's true. There is a culvert Or I would call it a tile That runs from the back of miss koyets yard down to and joins the storm sewer in englewood avenue It is obviously not functioning as intended And they have a severe water problem these houses Are at the bottom of a descending slope that rises behind them and something should be done To catch that water and direct it between the houses in a way that does not cause an invasion or seepage of the water through the walls I am sure that That water that the walls that can find that hold back the dirt in the 14 by 20 space under this house are probably not waterproofed on their exterior So the water seeps through correcting that tile will help but in any event there should be Waterproofing it in that space I cannot speak to the condition on miss koyets house at 2205 But it sounds like their downstairs space is probably larger and Whatever happens for the for the well-being of of the structures that are built here that That tile should be replaced as to its cost and the difficulty associated with it. I'm not really able to say there is A code compliant space between interval between the houses And so I believe you can get heavy equipment in there to remove the tile and put in a new one or whatever kind of Of water moving system, uh, would be appropriate. The slope would certainly handle it if it's graded correctly So Again, I I've heard what said about this house I've been in many worse houses and I know that the folks at riverbank on this street with a coa from this agency Has fixed houses that are worse Uh and up to removing literally half of the entire fabric of the house I mean And I believe that that it may be necessary Or to do that here, but Within the exterior walls of this house in terms of their framing their cladding All of that is in okay condition The inside of the house is bad the lathe and plaster has to come out But I believe that would be done for a rehabilitation in any case Now to read I want to redirect The commission's attention to chapter 160d 949, which is a recodification of the which I believe is maybe still current language in 160a That when it comes to an application to demolish a house in a historic district the first thing that we do is we look at the house And it's a relative significance. So this house was built in 1926. It is in substantially original condition Its historic integrity is somewhat compromised by the the water that's coming into it primarily from leaking leaking roof Uh, but that is fixable Uh, it contributes to the historic district And I want to point out that in this block of englewood avenue All of the houses are classified contributing except one. It's on the corner. All of the houses are the original houses Uh, they are all contributing their historic integrity is good And the one that is not contributing that's on the corner is not contributing because at the time the national register nomination was done. This was 20 years ago That house was built just outside the period of significance. So that one's not contributing because of its age not because of of its any kind of situation with its historic integrity And if we ever actually go back and reexamine the period of significance for the watshill and dale historic district I believe that house could be reclassified as contributing to remove this house then In a block where all the houses are original and where they are All but one are contributing in my opinion will do a violence to the district That is inappropriate and not necessary while it's true Uh From a financial standpoint A person might reasonably want to tear this house down and build another that isn't the test So when we look at the test We have to show that there would be that a delay imposing a delay or not reducing the delay that is appropriate here Not reducing the delay would cause extreme hardship Or permanent deprivation of beneficial value Uh by virtue of the delay or that The house itself has no significance to the district Well, this house has significance to the district and since really nothing is happening with it now It's really hard to say that there would be a significant impact on beneficial use that would be That delay imposing a delay on this property would be any different from imposing a delay on any property in other words All of those if if you're just determined not to fix the house Then the the 365 delay day delay On this house would be the same for any other will this house get worse if nothing is done. Yes, it probably will Right now. I believe the house it will qualifies under the definition of of demolition by neglect And could and is in fact it could be an enforcement issue if anybody wanted to pursue it that way Um I think the correct thing to do is to delay the destruction of this house And to work with these owners if they Are willing and miss go ahead and I spoke at some length And she said that she was open To this to talk to more people about how we might Re-abilitate this house how it might be enlarged in order to generate More revenue the when I look at the deed that was Uh Given to her father when he purchased it in august it says that the the deed stamps indicate that the purchase price was $230,000 Houses in this block Right now are selling for Four five and six hundred thousand dollars. Therefore in my opinion There is two or three hundred thousand dollars to work with To rehabilitate this house and if you enlarge it to maybe even go larger And to make the house Rehabilitated and enlarged house even more attractive in the marketplace I understand that that because they live next door and miss grieta said this that she is concerned She that her father bought this house in order to have To control it What happens here? I appreciate that I live in this neighborhood and I want to make sure that what happens to this house is correct for the historic district and correct for the neighborhood Um I believe it's possible for them to fix it up perhaps But if they wanted to sell it to somebody who would In order to make sure nothing untoward happened We could double down on the protections that it has from a historic preservation point of view right now It's protected by the local historic district and it and changes have to come to you, but they could also Uh Give preservation Durham historic preservation covenants under the statutes that allow that so that even if this Commission were to allow changes They would still have to go through preservation Durham Depending upon how we wrote the covenants To protect it so there are ways to make sure that whatever happens with this house are appropriate and significant and correct with regard to The way it functions in the district and the way it would function as Miss Goyette's neighbor Again the house is bad the pictures that you've been shown Are that you are shown are focus in on the worst parts of it But again, I have looked all through this house I've looked through it with a contractor on our board and we agree that that the essential structural members of this house As nearly as we could see them are in Reasonable or fair condition. They're clearly going to be places That are bad, but the walls are true all the doors open and closed. They're all original All the framework is is good. So mr. Miller. I don't want to cut job This is chair bouchard again, but you are repeating yourself and I do want to move That you're hearing along today. You're exactly right. So I apologize I I note that both miss Goyette and mr. Black have raised their hands I'm presuming that they want to provide rebuttal testimony and Clearly going to allow that to happen. However Based on our typical procedures I would like to give the commissioners an opportunity to ask any questions of mr. Miller Before we conduct any rebuttal testimony. So at any rate, I want to finish up by saying The preservation society of Durham historic preservation society of Durham respectfully to ask the historic preservation commission To impose a 365 day delay the loss of this house in this block in the district will do violence to the integrity of the block and Because essentially irreplaceable Or irreversible damage to the the historic district and I believe under the the legal criteria that we have to look at Um For you to Allow the demolition of this house you're required by law to find that the structure has no particular value or significance toward maintaining the character of the district That's the finding that the statute imposes and I don't believe that even in its current condition You could make that finding with regard to this house. Thank you and I'm available for questions commissioners any questions from mr. Miller I have a question for mr. Miller and um Joe black from riverbank Have you Had the opportunity to do some prior investigating to see whether or not Or at least kind of test the climate whether or not at this time There would be interested investors who could potentially Preserve the house do do the remediation work and preserve the house. Is is that still a A possibility in in the industry Is it beyond an investor's ability from your experience? Um I don't believe it's my place to say that Another investor should come and take the property that they've purchased rightfully But I guess looking at it from from an investor standpoint um And I'm glad mr. Miller brought up 2004 Inglewood because I worked on that one as well um You got to be able to to make money on the property for to be a good investment And I know that we did tear down the vast majority of 2004 Inglewood And I can say that 200 to 300 thousand dollars was not near enough to do that work. That was more like four or five um and and the issue is that Our professional experience um suggests that you're looking at a 10 to 15 percent higher construction cost When you're dealing with renovations or remodels like this as opposed to new construction And then there's just so much uncertainty with renovation as well Especially when so many of these surfaces are still covered up And when you have this mold issue We don't truly know the full extent until we start peeling layers away And so that uncertainty provides a whole another layer of risk that I think an investor would shy away from Any questions specifically for mr. Miller Before we give mr. Blacky miss go ahead a chance to robot Okay, hearing none Both miss go yet and mr. Black. I see that you have your hand raised. Um, the floor is yours whoever wants to go first I I already shared some of the things. I wanted to say um, I just obviously will point out that We've got you know, four licensed general contractors on staff at riverbank that We we've taken a professional assessment of this building We've had a license to in fact two licensed engineers over to the site To inspect it and the engineer that provided the letter that you have in your packet Told us to tear down 2004 Englewood, which we did not do um So I think it is bad Um, could it be saved are there elements that are salvageable? Maybe um, but I think what Um makes this house so much different than 2004 Englewood is the the water damage the moisture The mold that's present. Um, again, that was not a problem that 2004 Here it clearly is And again the uncertainty of what lies behind all these layers That's a huge risk for miss go yet Uh to take on when it comes to renovating because there's no telling how much more money it's going to take to properly Um Renovate and make this house safe for occupancy Um, there's just a piece of mind that you get with a new construction that um, I think is Extremely valuable Miss Goyette Yes, thank you. I just wanted to say I wanted to note that one of the things that mr. Miller repeated was this idea that Many houses are in much worse condition and I'd like to point out how subjective Both of those terms many and much worse are I would love to see which houses in this neighborhood that are contributing houses have been sitting in literally four feet of water for 30 plus years and um I just don't and also when he said that houses in this neighborhood cell for four or five six hundred thousand dollars Those houses are habitable This house is not habitable. It is a it is a health hazard this house right now It's very very sad that rick was living there. Um And I also just wanted to say, you know, I've noticed that mr. Miller took the liberty of speaking for me um With regard to the conversation we had and I don't feel that he accurately represented what I said to him I was also there when he walked through the house And I'd like to note that you cannot go down into the basement So when mr. Miller said that he went down into the basement That he went into every room in the house went up into the attic He did not because he cannot you cannot know What the shape of the foundation is in? Unless you are down there He didn't even step one foot down a stair to look at that basement. Um, and I will say that like from a more personal perspective um That I don't think I can remember a time when I have spent an hour with somebody Where it was so hard to get a word and edge wise my husband is a big talker Um, and he's pretty good. He's from boston. He's good at getting a word and edge wise and even with his 25 plus years of Building experience and landscaping experience. Mr. Miller would not let my husband speak when we were showing him the Back of the property where the water comes through on a dry day When we tried to show him the video of the water rushing through he was just incredibly Dismissive at one point even went like this to me when I tried to show him something regarding the water And he actually suggested that we should catch the we should catch the water with a pond in our backyard Which just I think illustrates his complete lack of understanding and also unwillingness to actually really listen Absorb and sit with what we were saying and I think you all remember what I said earlier about um about how Understanding a house having empathy for a house requires listening carefully to that house And in my estimation of mr. Miller, though, I only met him for one hour and spoke with him for an hour on the phone I would say he is one of the worst listeners. I have ever encountered So I just want to say I want to I want to try to keep this Above the gray. Okay. Yes, and I I understand that and I will repeat again that We would like to save as much of the house as possible. We know that it's we I don't think I can say any more about how much we appreciate history. How much we appreciate Durham and um, honestly, I just I'd like to reiterate what um, What what mr. Black said about you know the investment that we've made and that we're prepared to make is close to the million dollar mark We're not going to be able to find an investor Who's willing to spend that amount of money unless they're a big contractor like Jeff mon saying, you know That's it. Thank you I'm going to exercise a chair's privilege and ask the first question here for Our proponents in connection with their rebuttal testimony Some of the things that I heard in terms of evidence From mr. Miller are as follows Exterior walls are in excellent shape Peers appear to be true Windows and doors appear to be good and operational Is there any testimony from the proponents to rebut that testimony from mr. Miller on the exterior walls the peers and the windows and doors Yes, I'd like to say that um, he's saying that they appear to be true It's that's part of what I was trying to say you can't you can't tell the basement currently has four feet of standing water in it I I don't know how you could tell from peeking your head down around the Around the stairs down to the down to the crawl space that they're true And also there are multiple stair step cracks and left in all around the skirt of the house I mean, I just I don't think he actually really I mean he was there for an hour But he was mostly talking about himself. I don't think he really looked at the house Mr. Mr. Black your observations as a contractor on the condition of the exterior walls the peers windows and doors Sure, I will actually agree with miss goyade on the foundation You can't really get a good sense of it by just peeking down there and there is a lot of water So you literally have to go down in the water To investigate everything Um, and again, I'll point you to your packet of information You've got the report from a licensed engineer We've had multiple people on staff even mr. Parker that was there with mr. Miller He he does not share mr. Miller's view And I think that there's still so much uncertainty. I'm just going to say that again Can things be salvageable? Maybe but there's so much uncertainty that we cannot know for a certain until we start taking things apart Commissioners any other questions on the components hearing none. I'm going to close the public hearing and provide the commissioners an opportunity to Discuss this case Is there anyone who would like to open up the discussion? Katie Hamilton, um I guess I'll fall on that sword. Um This is a hard one. I think we've heard a good testimony on both sides um And clearly there's a lot of passion Within this block for both this structure and the neighborhood as a whole um, I feel qualified and on both sides have you know spoken to a number of issues We're looking at the criteria I just want to clarify that It's not just a matter of if it is um Historically significant there can be other factors such as hardship that we can consider if we Which I think Obviously, we've heard enough testimony today that There is historic value in this structure And I don't I don't argue that fact, but I do think we need to look at the hardships that the current owners and the neighborhood as a whole will impose and based on the testimony provided by the environmental It is based on testimony A factor that we should consider of um The health of the uh as well as the health of you know these residents living next door, so and I don't know that I'm sold on a zero day delay or 365 delay. I don't have I feel like I'm Meaning somewhere in the middle, but I don't know if other commissioners have strong opinions that they Prefer to share Yeah, um commissioner johnson I think that the the main issue causing damage to this historic structure is the water damage and it Is it seems as though if this this um the Water has been causing damage to this house for years and many years And it hadn't been Taking care of So I think I I just I don't see how a 365 Day delay is going to I'm not sure what that would do or how that would benefit or This particular property or or any investor will be willing To even come in and really do the work I was just I'm struggling with that long of a delay um for this property And And I don't I don't see it. I don't feel like any of the testimony Help me see that Thank you commissioner johnson Commissioner de berry commissioner ghoulsby commissioner fieselman Any thoughts What's top of mind for me is that the point of a delay Would be for the current owner to seek out With additional options for preserving the original structure And in the testimony, I've heard Kelly articulate that she's done And riverbank have done a fair bit of research already And then they're kelly's tone. I don't hear interest in or willingness to continue looking At options and I Think you know if that is why we would put a delay we won't collectively get much value out of extending um Timeline on demolition That's where my head is cat randy I will um chair bouchard. I'll spend just a moment. Um expressing my thoughts About the difficulty here I Hear the the the passion and the emotion On the on the part of miss goyette and the proponents of this project um I'm concerned about the fact that we have a structure that Based on that the best evidence before us um May be salvageable With good exterior walls good windows and and maybe a good foundation. We don't know and I appreciate what mr. Black was saying about the fact that you know, you don't know until you look um It's not lost on me that Our purview whenever coa's come in front of us non demolition cases We're not concerned about the inside of of these homes. I mean we're worried about how these these homes present from the outside and I I'm I'm struggling because although it appears to me that a whole lot of good work has been done To determine that this property is not habitable and not In significant part salvageable on the inside um, I I don't feel like I've heard enough to convince me that um This is an appropriate candidate for immediate demolition and so that that's my struggle. Um Now we're we're a preservation commission. Um, and we're clearly tasked under 160d 949 to Do our best to balance preservation with the needs of of the property owner and in any hardship that the property owner would suffer if we imposed a delay And so the the reason i'm leaning towards a delay is because I just feel like there's more that could possibly be done to explore possibilities for for salvaging this structure and so that's And I'm I'm normally Um on these types of cases. I think very sympathetic and I am here in this case too to the The needs of the the property owner and the hardship that could be suffered. Um But you know, we're dealing with a contributing property dating back to the 1920s and um It's it's hard for me to say that we should you know Contemplate the demolition of this Properties earliest tomorrow. Um, that's that's where i'm struggling right now Mr. Chairman you articulated my struggle and and I agree I would have a hard time Voting to allow demolition immediately without some more effort to try and find some solutions for this house I think also, um for me commissioner johnson um It it does that I think that was my initial struggle before testimony That the exterior the interior. Maybe it could it could be salvaged um but I don't the problem I have is I don't see anyone working on the exterior of the property um Investing funds to do that without also putting um investment funds into Working on the interior property so that it is habitable. Um, right now as it stands it's As the specialist said Courtney I forgot what company you're with but Courtney stated that With the heat coming North Carolina heat coming all the mold is growing and continually It's continually growing in the property. It could be a potential health risk public health risks to neighboring properties Um, I do have a question for the city attorney Um, christa if you're available I wanted to know what what is it that an applicant has to do to prove extreme hardship? Is is there something concrete? That we need other than oh, it's going to cost us a lot of dollars, but we don't have paperwork Oh, I don't know how to determine that Um, christa kugaro city attorney's office. Um, there is no definition of that in Um, the statutes, um, are really any guidance that's clear Um, in the in the law, I think that that's really just has to be sort of a balance that the Um commission explores and weighs Um, you know, the the statute does offer sort of the additional language About the beneficial use of the property and I do think that that's something else that the commission can take into consideration In evaluating that extreme hardship And I do know that there was some testimony offered on that. So sorry, I can't offer more clarity In terms of, you know, a formula or something that's kind of a bright line That's just not in in the statute commissioners this strikes me as analogous to the case we heard a few months ago that um boarding house for nurses from the 1920s across from watts hospital, which had the similarities of exterior in decent shape Interior not currently habitable foundation with water issues historic contributing property relatively near this one that one was also asking for a demolition and we Um imposed if I recall three month delay rather than 365 day delay And that feels to me like the most analogous case that we've heard during my time on the commission So I'm going to throw that out as a starting place for conversation on how we might proceed Yeah, and I I did speak Well, I don't know I'll just for an example, um that particular house wasn't as as far as water damage It wasn't as bad as this particular situation this um our case in front of us Um, but I did find someone willing to invest in a property If the owner What could you know, they just have to work out the right type of price and actually she left a message for me And I have to call her after this meeting to see what the final result is um for that but um, yeah, I hear you and that And that was a situation where there was a an experienced investor that said yes, it can be done um, I think this this situation seems a A lot different, but we'll see Can I ask a clarifying question commissioner johnson if With that case, you know, some folks from this commission agreed to sort of do a little digging and help figure out what might be possible Is there interest or capacity to do that in this case? Oh, yes, I we can we are always available to help Do some research and dig in and reaching out to find potential Buyers who are who might be willing to do the to do to do the preservation work. We can do that Again commissioner Bouchard right wrong or indifferent. I like the idea of a 90-day um delay It's not everything that the applicant wants Um, and it's probably not nearly as long as mr. Miller would want. Um, so it would put pressure. I think on mr. Miller um To really work with this Homeowner and with this applicant to figure out if there are alternatives to tearing this project down because if If we were to approve a 90-day delay and no progress is made then it comes down in 90 days. Um, and so Trying to balance the needs here of of of both the Historic district as well as the the property owners. I I think it's analogous enough to the project that commissioner fieselman has mentioned to warrant Strong consideration for a 90-day delay and I know that as things stand right now if a motion Is is made and seconded for for no delay. I know I can't support that. Um, but I think I could support A a motion con for a 90-day delay Matt is sandy. I I agree. Um that some some sort of delay is um What I'm I'm thinking and it sounds like where this commission is leaning as a whole. Um I I think a 90-day would be appropriate Welcome to hear other other thoughts from the commissioner I'd prefer slightly longer than 90 because I think this is a little more Difficult, although I think the real estate market in Durham Um would support someone who would Appreciate that house So maybe 180 but um, I I agree a year is too long I think 90 uh works for me, especially just giving them the opportunity to look into the storm water pipe issue and if there is a way To resolve that because I do think that's kind of external from The precedent we have and throws a wrench into it. That's not necessarily just the structure but the fact that there is this External issue that could continue like even if they did just fix the structure as is They need to make sure that storm water pipe doesn't continue to um Flood the work that they do in the future. So um It would be good to know that they have 90 days to Get someone out there look at you know other trenching equipment type options that aren't Back up scale instruction I have one one more question for Mr. Black or Courtney or even miss go yet Could is it could the water that's sitting in the crawl space start attracting pests like mice and rodents and things of that sort does that Is that a problem in that particular on that particular side of the street? I can say that I did get fleas when I went in there So there are bugs that are living there now And I'll also say that um that yeah, the basement is completely open. There are two There is a window on each side. It's like a brick Opening and just cracks and there are plenty of openings for vermin and Pests, I mean, there are no vents. There's nothing there's nothing stopping like Raccoons cats. We I actually spent an entire week trying to get rick's cat out of the house because She got scared when he was moving out and I was trying to get his cat back to him and she was like Hanging out down in the basement Or the crawl space. I'm sorry, but yes. Yes, it's And for now nothing no rodents have actually been Coming to your house right now Right now it's full of four feet of water So like no animal is going to go in there But when the water is at a lower level. Yes anything can and that's a nice place for You know rodents and vermin to hang out And also I just wanted to add that we are Not willing to sell the house to anyone. I just want to put that on the table You have to think about this from our perspective. I'm asking you to empathize with us We love this house We bought this house because we wanted it to be our forever home And we want my dad who is 75 years old and almost died last year to live next door to us He's already started showing signs of you know forgetfulness and we're really worried about him. He's an old guy And I I know I'm not supposed to say this like I've been coached not to say this but like I just want to call this out for what it is like Telling people that they can't Telling people that if they can't you know like pour in over a million dollars to renovate possibly over a million dollars to restore a house feels Classist and elitist I mean, I mean you think about people who aren't white and who have to deal with historic preservation Issues like this. I mean it's It's it's a major issue of inequity that I think the hpc needs to examine like I know I'm not supposed to talk about this because it's not nice and you won't agree with me and it's political But I just want to I just want to call it out for what it is We have just as much right to be able to To buy an investment property that's going to mature And you know become a better and better investment. Why should we have to Why should we feel compelled to sell that to somebody richer than us who can afford it? I mean, is that what Durham is all about? I don't think so Thank you miss go yet. Um, miss cordon. Did you have anything to add about the rodents potential rodents? Um, yes, I was going to say that rodents may not you might not be able to see them right now because as she said, there's a lot of Water in the crawl space. So they may be hiding out in there and not be able to be detected But the water does attract other vermin into the wood. Um, it makes it more easily Chewable and able for them to come live inside of the wood. So they are very attracted to water Thank you commissioners any other discussions or someone have um, Well, I suppose what we should do before we entertain a motion is see if there's a staff recommendation But I don't want to cut off conversation Um prematurely is there anything else that folks believe need to be said needs to be said before we Ask for a staff recommendation I would like to say one more thing if I can um As far as an investor goes in my experience once you start Bringing up fungal growth Water damage of fungal growth are two very different areas Um, fungal growth does come along with water damage if they're not always together Um, when you start trying to get an investor to Invest in a property of fungal growth becomes very difficult Especially in this situation because they're likely trying to then sell the house as a hibitable livable house And you then have to disclose the fungal growth and you have to disclose tests that pass a microbiological examination Um, if you don't pass or if you have a future problem that can be tied to that investor It then brings in many many legal complications for them So finding an investor is going to be incredibly difficult Given the prolific fungal growth found in this home, which Once we start tearing part the building apart It could be even worse than what we see from the naked eye. My job isn't to tear apart any I don't uncover anything in the home. I only see what's on the surface There is plenty of fun growth that could be occurring on the other side of the walls that we don't know about yet So it could be a way bigger issue than we even see right now And prolonging it too far could mean that something that was salvageable today or tomorrow Is not within the next few days Fungal growth can become an issue within just hours Okay, I'm going to reclose the public hearing. Um, and once again ask commissioners if Commissioner fieselman. Yeah, can I ask commissioner to bury to speak a little bit to 90 days versus 180? Where's your thinking at this point? um you know the the uh broad street property that we Considered a time or two ago um, it appears that 90 days may be maybe allowed it to You know find a new life. Um, I think this house has maybe more problems Um, and it may take a little longer. I just um I think it's a compromise not to do the full one 365 and 180 would just give um, everybody a little chance maybe to take a breath And look for some other answers um, I'm I'm not convinced that this house is um, not salvageable and you know if a few more days Would help in that process As matt said we're the historic preservation commission and we're supposed to help um, you know maintain these historic districts and so if an additional 60 days would help 90 days would help. I think we should do that How do other commissioners feel about a potential 180 day delay? I feel like based on the testimony that Courtney has presented I get nervous about you know continuing to impose longer and longer delays. I think It's hard because it is like 90 days is you know During no normal non-covid times plenty of time um, but I understand that like during these days it might take longer to get responses from um different entities, but I just If there's a chance this fungal growth is going to get worse over 180 days and make things that maybe could have been salvaged Well, I guess but Now I'm thinking about proposing the salvage anything so I don't know that that really actually matters But there is also the public health issue. I don't know. I lean towards You know three months more than six months just knowing um I think you can I don't think going to six months is going to change who you get At the end of the day it might you know six months might be that they have time to work out you know with a contractor what they're doing, but If they decide to go out they would have that time in 90 days have made that connection. I don't know I'm not saying anything never mind just It's okay. You're just thinking aloud. Um, it's tough But I think I think um, miss scolette just mentioned that she has no intention on Even entertaining The idea of selling the property to an investor. So now that brings us a question um, the reason why we were even considering The delay is that so that we can look into maybe potential new owner willing to do the preservation work um And so I don't know what do the rest of the commission think about that if that's not on the if that's not on the table. What do we You know Why would we consider it? But this is chair bouchard. I I didn't understand that to be the only reason why we'd impose a delay I mean if there are other options that could be explored and I don't necessarily presume to know what those options might be um I'd like to give mr. Miller or others who might be interested in preserving this property an opportunity to figure out a way To work collaboratively with the property owner and the applicant To see if something's possible and it could very well be that nothing is possible um, and so to my mind it becomes what's an appropriate amount of time Uh to allow that process however it might unfold and whatever might result from it Uh to transpire And so I I think 180 is a little bit too long Um, I could be convinced that 120 is appropriate. So, you know pre-covid times I'd probably say 90 days is plenty of time and because of covet I'll Add 33 and say I could support 120, but I'm not sure I could go much further than that In trying to balance everybody's interest here I mean, I'm also looking at the spirit of the applicant as it don't see Um, I don't envision that she's Right now looking to make any other It seems like she's she felt that she spent the time investigating herself Unless we come up with other options for the delay. I don't I don't I don't I don't see the purpose of a 180 120 maybe a 90 Um, but I just think my I feel like right now my main concern is it's one of them Which is just a different type of animal And seems as though it's been sitting there for a while the whole house is molded Um, and it's just going to get back over the summer Um and start to attract things snakes and things To the to the neighbors, um, but um, I feel like unless The the last situation the owners were willing to work with us. They were When I called them they were just very open Um, and I don't get the same impression With this particular applicant. That's just where I'm going with that I'm all for doing all we can to save the property But it has to be willingness on on both ends to come to some type of agreement and the last Month that applicant was extremely willing to work with us. They were very open Chair Bouchard here. I am Getting a sense from what I'm hearing from this conversation that there is sufficient support for a 90 day delay on this board But we may not have sufficient support for a delay of longer than that. Um, and so Um, unless there's additional conversation I would Go ahead and ask for a staff recommendation before entertaining a motion Paula Rosenberg planning department staff would recommend a 90 day delay for the approval of this application I'm willing to make a motion Thank you All right, the Durham historic preservation finds that in case co a 21 000 13 2207 Englewood avenue demolition of the primary structure the applicant is proposing to demolish demolish a contributing structure dating from the late 19 20s The commission has determined that there is his sufficient historical value to the structure And the commission has determined that the property owner has not shown Well has shown evidence of hardship in keeping the structure And um once demolish the site will be stabilized with grass seed and straw So therefore in accordance with udo requirements and in cgs 16 0 d 949 the coa for the proposed demolition is approved with a 90 day delay second Chair Bouchard approved Commissioner de berry No approved commissioner hamilton approved commissioner johnson approved commissioner waders Yeah, she needed to leave in the middle of this hearing I want to thank everybody for your patience for your testimony This was one of the the toughest matters that I've confronted since being on this commission. Um, there were no easy answers here Um, and and perhaps everyone's going to leave not particularly happy with what we've done But to the extent there's an opportunity here for additional conversation, um I hope the The parties will have it and you know, we'll see where things leave from there, but thank you again for Your your your time your energy your patience. Um and your testimony today If um, I could invoke the chair privilege for a five minute recess Um, and then we'll come back and hear our last two cases We can come back, uh, let's say at 1155 Terry, are you there? Can I ask a just? administrative question What's the scoop on uh paper? Packets in the mail are those happening and mine just didn't come two months in a row or did we stop doing them? No, you've been getting them I did get them the first months I was on the commission but then I did not get them the last two months Okay, I'll make sure you get them next month. Okay. Thanks. I can send you my address if you need it Okay, great. Thanks, terry. I'll make sure I get it to you Sorry about that and we appear we are waiting for tad to return There's tad and here's carla terrific All right, I think the band's back together um, so let us Move forward with case coa 21 00014 162 west ramser street new construction um Before we hear from staff Is there any one of our commissioners who may have a conflict of interest in hearing this case uh outside of what uh commissioner hamilton Disclosed earlier today hearing none and let us please proceed with the swearing in of anyone who plans to speak for or against the case I do Yes, I do. Thank you I do So welcome, uh, mr. Harmon, uh, mr. Arneson and miss young Are you here to speak for or against the proposal just so I? Realize who we have here today Speaking in favor we're part of the application Okay proponent for in a part of the design team Wonderful. So all three of you are here for that. That's helpful to know. Thank you very much Um, and I need a verbal response from each one of you to this question Do you all consent to this hearing being conducted this morning through this remote platform? Yes Yes, I do I do Wonderful. Thank you all and with that We may proceed with the staff summary carly. You're muted I apologize This is kcoa 21 000 14 162 west ramza street new construction The applicant is built form in collaboration with center studio architecture. The owner is crest 1933 llc Um, it's located the northwest quadrant of the intersection of ramza street And man gum. I apologize that got left out it's Zoned downtown design core and it is a non contributing Parcel in the downtown Durham historic district So the applicant's proposing to construct a six-story mixed use Structure on the site. Um, it's currently a surface parking lot And it will be attached to the crest building, which is a landmark I would like to introduce the staff report into the record and invite The applicant to present their case Good morning My name is david arneson. I'm a partner at center studio architecture We have scott harman my business partner and ashley young from built form Just to give a little bit of clarity about our who we are and our roles Scott and I are partners in center studio architecture And also partners in revamp Durham a real estate investment company. We're partners on the ownership side and development side, excuse me For this project, so We're each wearing legally a couple of hats because we have ownership stake as well as Being on the design team But in terms of how we work today and and how we present ourselves I'll be wearing the architect hat and scott will be wearing the developer hat CSA is the design architect on the project and built form as the architect of record and Collaborating with us on the design of the building ashley young has built the model of the building and Has the most technical expertise and knowledge about the project. So While we're all here to answer questions ashley will probably have the most technical expertise about The project as you can see in the staff report The site is currently a vacant surface parking lot. This is immediately south of the crest building It's the northwest corner of south manganese street and east ramser street Um And our proposal is to put a six-story building On the parcel. It's a very small parcel a challenging parcel to try and put pretty much anything on But we think we have a solution Parking is one of the main issues as i'm sure you're all aware for any kind of development And uh, we have an innovative parking solution For this building That includes a stacked mechanical lift system That will accommodate I believe it's 24 cars And then we have one surface parking lot for our ADA nuts Not a surface lot but within the building we have a an ADA parking space, but That's our existing conditions Survey showing the surface parking Lot as it exists with a couple of small brick walls On the property and there is a bus station at the Southern corner Kind of southwest corner The building that we're proposing is six stories tall. The ground floor is concrete structure Has retail space That we would rent a commercial or retail tenant In an L shaped configuration facing The two streets south mangam and east ramster That L shaping closes and and conceals from a view the stacked parking structure Which is accessed from an alley on the west property line Adjacent to the surface parking lot 20 And top of that we have five stories of wood frame structure That a con House, I believe we have 20 Six 25 26 residential condominiums They are various sizes and configurations But you can see here on the elevation from mangam street The adjacency to the historic crest building To the right on the drawing there And you can see how our ground floor has storefront aluminum and glass storefront Almost entirely glass as much glass as possible We have incorporated the bus shelter into the design of our building on the ground floor That's in the bottom left of the drawing there 10 foot three and a half In the kind of gold orange tone there is a recessed niche essentially in the facade of our building We have a Combination of gray stucco material ethus exterior insulation finish system And some horizontal fiber cement panel Siding also in the orange color And then vinyl windows and doors for the Residential units on the upper five floors The top floor of the building is set back 10 feet from the Main facade of the building You can see that Where it says fcp-1 That's That whole facade is set 10 feet back from the main gray facade Which is parallel to crest building We have balconies On the primarily the corners of the building Uh where the build our building is adjacent to the crest building We have a row of balconies Those are also the the main facade of the building is recessed revealing the corner of the crest building The balconies themselves project forward slightly At the ground floor, which is the residential entry into the condominium building That facade is also recessed revealing the corner of the historic crest building If we take a look at the next sheet That should be the south facade. This is facing the d-pack. We're essentially right across ramsore and the railroad tracks from the performing arts center And you can see we have a combination of materials there two colors of gray stucco. They're both exterior insulation finish system the Kind of orange colors the horizontal fiber cement painted product And then a bunch of vinyl windows and one thing I should bring up is that In our conversation today, we're hoping to get as much feedback From the commission as we can we'd also like to say that we're requesting a Continuation of the public hearing until next month We are in the process of getting pricing on this building And we know there's going to be some value engineering exercises And there will probably be some modifications in some geometry and some materials particularly the height of the first floor You can see that in our current design. We have the first floor. It's a second floor quite tall 20 foot 11 inches That is primarily to accommodate the parking stacked parking mechanism We're looking at two different vendors Who may provide that system for us and one of them would involve a pit That would accommodate more cars underground and so the height of the mechanism wouldn't need to be so tall So we're anticipating that we might be able to lower The whole wood part of the building floors two through six by approximately four feet And that would obviously affect the design of the ground floor storefront and The height of the overall building So we know there's going to be some changes But we wanted to get this in front of you and have a conversation about it and Bring up any relevant issues for the commission So that we can address all of those when we Reconvene next month There's a lot of data in our presentation we've we've got a rather detailed model and Two-dimensional drawings as well as perspective views So I'm sure you've looked through them all. I don't know that I need to go through it in a whole lot of detail right now But we're certainly happy to answer any questions You might have At this time, I think one issue I would like to bring up since it's in the staff report Is I would Direct your attention to page three of the report Section four materials be the bottom one The criterion Obviously, this is a non contributing Structure since it's brand new structure It says it's not appropriate to install a hollow profile siding or a trim and then The analysis refers to the proposed vinyl windows do not appear to meet this criterion When we designed the building we were certainly aware that we would be proposing vinyl windows our reading of the Guidelines was that that criterion Wouldn't apply to the window because it specifically says hollow profile siding or trim and We understood that a window wouldn't fall in that criterion but fall into one of the criterion above Modern equivalent material Um, so we just want to ask for more clarity on that point And with that, I think we Like to hear whatever questions or comments you may have for us Thank you very much for that presentation, uh, mr. Arneson. Um commissioners any questions Tat I think you want to speak but you're on mute. Hi. Uh, this is mr. DeBerry I just have a couple of questions and they probably do not Reflect, um, whether there'll be approval or not, but I just their personal questions one What is the uh, or what are the fire suppression? Apparatus in this building it'll be a fully sprinkler building we have multi-family residential So by code we're required to have a sprinkler system. We also have a This kind of construction is typically referred to as podium construction where the ground floor concrete structure Uh, has a concrete slab at the second floor level that separates the residential units from the retail And garage space. It's a quite common Uh, multi-family construction techniques So I can't remember if that's a two hour or a three hour separation at the second floor level Yeah, that is a three hour here Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah, my main concern is less fire from the bottom, but what happens if the upper floors catch fire what happens to the crests building? um, I assume there's a Fire wall there as well Correct. Yeah, the crest building is uh already has a masonry wall We are building our building with our stairs and elevator adjacent to it And those are all rated uh concrete block shafts So there's a relatively small area where one of the residential units is adjacent But we have Technically not a party wall. We have two separate walls the crest wall and our wall Both of which are rated Okay And then I just have two comments that are again purely personal one is that I wish there was something in the Outer components of this building that had some sort of um recognition Of the crest building. I don't know whether it was some blonde brick or some terracotta or something Which leads me to my next comment um We've approved a number of um projects similar to this in the downtown design district and My feeling is that they all have a a similar look and There's just a lot of it and You know Down the road is this going to be the stuff that Developers come to us and say Yeah, we're going to take it down because it doesn't have any architectural significance because there's 15 others in the district And again, that's just a personal comment um So as a person who works in the crest building every day, I appreciate the fire question because As Carla can tell you our fire alarms go off on a regular basis already um, and I also don't want to burn up but um I do appreciate that the horizontal datum of the base does seem to pull off of um The existing like exposed basement there, you know, where the entry to the barcade is I feel like you're kind of maintaining that horizontal datum with your 19 foot tall base um It would be nice to see a similar continuation Of the datum lines Further up the facade um With the crest building through some sort of our you know more material articulation or something along those lines because right now it is kind of like your base stays in line with the crests And then I mean I understand like floor-to-flight floors and how marketing goes so it doesn't necessarily have to be that you know Your actual floor floors are the same but the There was a way to like kind of just continue um There's other floor datum the same way you did the base. It would I think Help it feel more cohesive Along that streetscape kind of how like on main street you see all these different you know, um Storefronts and you look at one city center and It kind of tried to keep some of that which obviously is part of what the design district guidelines with the podium heights Are trying to um and still So I would say that um you All right, so before you come back. Have you um gotten this bus stop approved through Transportation I can speak to that. So we've gone through um Our first site plan approval. So we did receive comments from our both our udo requirements and Transportation so those comments have been addressed and yes, we comply currently with their design criteria Okay, sorry. I just know whenever I've had to do bus stops through these very Regulated things, but I guess um, it's cool that you can do it though. I mean, andy, did you have any thoughts as the architect on the board? Yeah, I mean, I do have a couple of clarifying questions and um And and things that I think and the questions I've heard so far may be maybe helpful. Um One I know you guys have been sounds like you've been through your crease the middle um In talking with uh The historic preservation staff Did you guys come to an agreement on what the podium height? would be and The step back because I see a I see the 10 foot step back for the udo, but The preservation. I think we have a 15 Foot or well, excuse me. Let me just read it. Um Massing above the podium to step back at least 15 feet or sufficiently sufficiently to preserve a continuity of the block face so I didn't quite see that in the Um in the package um, I have to say I'm not familiar with that the We were trying to work with the height and Block face of the crest building So if you could uh, I'm not sure who's in charge of the slideshow But if we could get to the 3d images from our model that might help To show How the Gray part of our building on man gum is Similar in height to the crest building and then steps back on the top floor And I see I see those pieces in here. I'm just trying to associate it with the actual criteria um Sometimes when we get the These multifamily buildings or any building really in the downtown We see a established podium height for that block block face And then how does how does the new building relate to that? That that would be just be helpful for for your updates if you could clarify that Okay. Yeah, I think we also We're sort of taking this stance and you can see and especially in that center image That we are a sufficient setback for the block face here As opposed to the 15 feet Give me one second. I did have another question here Oh, um I do see at your stairwell where it meets with the crest building They are stepping back the exterior walls, but the balconies are projecting um, so if you could just You know give some more clarity or reasoning Uh, why the balconies would project past the crest building um It's it's my opinion that that starts to impact the view of the crest building and again the criteria um Tries to push away obstructing views Of historic properties Sure Well, we excuse me. We definitely wanted to give those Uh Buyers of those residential units of balcony that gave them a view up and down Mangum street as opposed to a completely recessed balcony And also the site is so tiny that we were Trying to use it effectively We felt we had a good compromise by having the facade of the building the thermal envelope pushed back so that we could reveal the corner of crest Uh in this middle view here and that the balconies are relatively thin Uh and have a transparent guard rail on them So that historic fabric of the crest building is all revealed and there's just a thin layer Uh of balcony adjacent to it We can talk about the guard rail Is it a aluminum with say picket or a rail or is it you talking about glass? Um, we currently have glass in the design. That's one of the elements we're uh Looking at in terms of the budget but our our original design intention is to have a glass railing Uh in my my last bit of clarification. I think for your for your next mission. It's just Um just seemed like there's a lot of materials or material changes uh for me When I think about the the district and Buildings that I don't see as many material changes so I know there's um, there's efis and there's the Firesmith siding and the aluminum curtain wall or excuse me the window wall But then also the efis in itself From my understanding changes changes color Um, so I just think that you know when I think about buildings downtown, there's not so many materials or material changes In the elevations. I'm wondering if you can speak to how the new proposed building articulates with the side of the historic crest building and what's on that side That's going to have this building right next to it And is there any conversation between those two things or are they just two walls up against each other? Um, I want to make sure I'm understanding the question right are you referring to the the facade design of our building relative to the crest facade No, I'm talking about the wall of the crest building that's going to have this building sandwiched up against it I think we've got an image might be helpful to pull up the existing image You could probably go back another page or two That's a good example there Okay, so there's not any windows on the existing crest building Correct. Not where we'll be touching the windows that are on the west side of crest Um, will not be covered by our building The floor plan shows how that step back works Do I have that right? That's correct and lord that was also previously a party wall so even historically that that was not really a facade That has been visible with the various structures that have been there previously The crest building has it's you can see in the plan at the top corner has its exit door and some stairs coming out Uh, and so that's all being preserved And the windows the two windows that stack on the floors above occur in that Corner. Thank you. This is chair bouchard. I would like to get if possible clarification from carla in response to the observation you made mr. Arneson about the materials for windows and doors Carl I just wanted to see what not you are construing 4b referencing hollow profile siding or trim to also include Windows and sliding doors for planning department so Windows also have trim that trim You know wouldn't need to not be hollow profile. We have as precedents set that we don't allow um Hollow profile. So you would be setting a new precedent for this Particular project if you wanted to move forward with final if you look around downtown Um, I don't I don't see it's because criterion see Is a durable modern material deemed compatible I do not believe that it meets that criterion Okay may reply um the um historic guidelines, uh I don't they're not in this The complete document is not in this uh report But where it's uh pulled from on page 67 a local review criteria new structures um There happens to be a photo on that page of And the caption says new infill construction in the downtown district um The building that is in that photograph is the church and main building Uh on east main street Near the old courthouse It's a six-story building. That's a project that the csa designed a number of years ago And was approved by the commission and that building has Punch windows in it they Were the approved window was anderson 100 series window Which is a hollow profile? Uh happens to be a brand name by anderson called fiber exits 40 wood fibers and 60 vinyl But it's a very very similar product in that it's a vinyl exterior and it's a hollow Profile window frame We don't have any trim on those windows and we're not proposing any trim on these windows for this building um But this is was part of our mindset that we've done this before in downtown in the historic district and used um a nearly identical product hollow profile window With vinyl Uh and no trim So mr. Anderson carlor's our reclaiming apartment. I did go back and look at that coa I didn't see any cut sheets included in that approved coa Um But I I did note that you had requested the all of the windows to be replaced by the manufacturer Just a couple years later. So i'm wondering um, would you call that a durable product? Not the anderson 100 but the anderson 400 that it was replaced with was And we've used these similar vinyl windows. There's a number of manufacturers who make them and we've put them in a lot of products in downtown In and around downtown some of those aren't in the historic district, but Well, I do want to clarify that they were not they did not get specifically Um approved by the commission and that was under previous criteria as well. Okay What would be the alternatives mr. Arnes into using um hollow profile? windows and door products Uh, there are a couple of options. We could go with an aluminum clad wood window We could go with a solid pvc window Those are probably the two main options. We would consider Okay, that's all I have anybody else Art will come in under a separate coa right carla Yes, because they have not been um Provided it hasn't been provided. It looks like they marked a space for it. Um, but no particular proposal Materials etc has been proposed There is no can I ask a quick question? I'm sorry in regards to that Um with a separate coa for the art Um, we will have some form of of signage as well included on this project When we go for construction would we issue a coa that would include the signage and the art together? Would we be able to do that? That's a single Carla rose room planning department. Yes, you could include those together. Um, but if your signage exceeded 24 square feet, for instance, it would reach the major level Whereas maybe your mural since it's on a non-contributing surface might not require Commission review so that's something to think about. Okay. Thank you so much I don't want to prematurely cut off conversation, but it sounds to me as if the applicant is actually seeking a continuance to this case and if there's no further Um input that we can provide the applicant. I'm prepared to to move anyone else Okay, with respect then to case coa 2 1 0 0 0 1 4 um Is hereby moved that this case be continued to the May 4, uh 2021 meeting of this commission second And Ms. Elliott Yeah, you're you're somehow muted terry Sorry, I can okay approved Commissioner de verry de verry Yes commissioner fieselman approved Vice chair will be approved approved Commissioner johnson approved Motion passes 6 0 Thank you all very much. Good luck with the further revisions and value engineering and we look forward to seeing you soon Thanks very much. Appreciate it everyone. Thank you We'll now hear our final case of the day. It is coa 2 1 0 0 0 1 5 8 0 5 yancy street demolition of primary structure Um, it looks like we're in the process of getting our speakers in Good to see you again If we could have um all of our witnesses, uh sworn in Ms. Elliott Do you swear about to give in the public hearing proceeding for today's case? Is the truth by your own knowledge or by information and belief? I do And Ms. Lockeman, are you um consenting to having your case heard today via this remote platform? Yes Terrific. Thank you for that. Um If we could uh have a staff summary, please Oh, I'm sorry. I did forget to ask one question Uh any commissioners who would have a conflict of interest hearing this case today? It appears we're good to move on with our staff report Carl Rosenberg planning department. This is case coa 21 0 0 0 15 8 0 5 yancy street demolition of a primary structure The applicant is 4 over 1 design represented by sarah lachenman The owner is west 4th llc located on the south side of yancy street between arnett avenue and shepherd street zoned residential urban Duplex and it's a non-contributing parcel within the more head hill historic district. So i'd like to Introduce this staff report into the record and invite miss lachen then to present her case Hello everybody, um you guys have been in the in the marathon today And hopefully this one will be short and sweet um, I talked to you guys last month about the quadruplex that is um just to the east of the structure and originally the applicant or the West 4th were planning on letting this one stand a little bit longer before they replaced it with something um that was part of the the grouping of new infill and um as as we've moved along in the process They've decided to go ahead and um take this one down so they can do the construction of the proposal of all the new buildings at once um So this is a duplex that was built in 78. Um, it's not in particularly great shape And it doesn't fit with the neighborhood. Um, they will be replacing it with multifamily The site plan, um, I think is is still a little bit in flux from the one that I approved, but they're going to be Using this lot which goes quite deep into the neighborhood To get the adjoining lots to be the right size for the buildings that they want to put on I'm happy to answer any questions about it, but I think it's pretty straightforward. So So yeah, there you go commissioners, do we have any questions for our applicant today? It would appear that there are no questions Everybody's too worn out from earlier. It's okay Um, I I will ask for the record if there is anyone here to speak in opposition To the coa application and seeing none We can close the public hearing and move on to commission discussion Carla, I'll ask you the same question. I ask with respect to demolition projects like like this Just for my own confirmation Would it be fair to presume that you don't see any special significance or value in maintaining the character of this district by imposing any sort of delay and seeing if this this property is reusable or salvageable Carla Rosenberg planning department. Um, yeah based on its Year of construction and the fact that it's not listed in the inventory of the local historic district or the national register district. I would say it does not Anything architecturally significant about it simple gable roof structured modern masonry now great Thank you With that do we have a staff recommendation Carla Rosenberg planning department staff would recommend approval of the application without a 365 day delay I'll go ahead and move to close this up The Durham Historic Preservation Commission finds that in the case coa 21 00015 805 Yancy street demolition of primary structure The applicant is proposing to demolish a non contributing multifamily structure dating from the 1970s The commission has determined that the structure lacks sufficient historical value or structural integrity to preserve it The site will be stabilized with grass seed and straw following the demolition until further developed therefore in accordance with udo requirements In north Carolina general statutes chapter 160d section 949 The coa for the proposed demolition is approved Without a delay 80 goals the second Chair per sorry Approved Approved Approved Buster will be Approved Chair uh Commissioner Hamilton Approved Commissioner Johnson Approved Mission passes 60 Thank you very much Thank you You caught it short and sweet Yes Wrong is just that the members present I didn't change the chair and the vice chair so I will fix that if y'all want to vote on that Everything else was fine Does everyone have access to the minutes The minutes I received It looks like the ones now are not Wrong anymore Well, I think it's because we voted in the The new chair that particular month so it starts off. Is that what we talked about on the first page Yeah Okay chair helmet and then did call the meeting to order And we voted yeah at the new business that was new business I wasn't I wasn't chair at the last meeting was I? No Oh When I clicked the link I get a march 2 2021 Set of draft minutes where the call to order is is by me Yes, it's been changed since the last time I looked at it. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm looking at February. You're right. Okay That was in February. Okay Krista, would there be anything Out of line if we were to hold off on voting on these minutes until the next meeting just to be sure everyone has a a You know updated set and in a chance to review them Um, this is christa kagar city attorney's office that is totally fine if you want to wait to vote on them You don't need to take any action. They would just sort of linger on the agenda And be on there for next month So that's acceptable. Okay That's my recommendation New business minor coas Thank you all very much for hanging in there. Look it's 1241. This was a long meeting. Um I am open to to feedback slash criticism Whether you want to give it now or later about how long this ran particularly the demolition case I realized that went on Far too long and I probably should have been more assertive in cutting people off. Um So what's the To staff, what's the process for limiting speaking time? In these cases like is there a way that we can Yeah, so in the past when we've had many many, um applicant. I'm sorry Opponents and proponents we've like limited it to two minutes. Um, but I think In this case, we really didn't have a whole lot of people presenting. We just had long-winded presenters. And so, um, I think, um, really Honing in on what the actual criteria is making sure that that it's material evidence. Yeah, there was a lot provided that was Not really relevant, although maybe it helped to set up that, you know, extreme hardship, but I think really outlining those three criteria from the statue would have been helpful from the beginning. Okay And trying to get folks to address those Right. Yeah, there was way too much emotion. Um, and and I will tell you that this is only the beginning and so knowing this for next hearing Would be great Okay to do that for next hearing. Yeah, Mr. Chair, can I chime in? Absolutely Sure. Um, christa cougar city attorney's office. I agree with what carla said. I think Um, you know the standard for review, you know upon appeal for example is Was a substantial competent material evidence? To support the decision and so that's really what the board needs to be considering is Is it substantial? You know, is it is it sort of Of a significant weight Is it competent is someone presenting it who has the information to present it? Um, and is it material? Is it relevant? Um, and so I think, you know keeping that in mind I think can often help to narrow The scope of the conversation Um, the board of adjustment often does limit speakers time and that's within the chair's purview to do that And so you could do it, you know, sometimes they do it where Applicants get a little bit more time because obviously they have the burden of proof And opponents get a little less time depending on how many there are Um, and the last thing I'll say is, you know, I know that um, commissioner johnson Asked about extreme hardship during the meeting I I think it's unfortunate in a way that that's not really articulated in the statutes. I think that it You know, I was looking I was researching while you all were discussing Not really coming up with anything. Um in terms of case law that discusses That principle Um and came across a school of government article that describes that flexibility that you all have as a blessing and a curse um And so, you know, I think I'll work with staff to see if we can come up with some ideas which could guide that um Guide decision-making on that they it wouldn't be sort of binding because it's not statutory but could help you all Get through that concept That's great. Very helpful. All these comments are really helpful. I I need to be a little bit more assertive as chair Um, that's what I learned uh from that hearing You're Yeah, and I and I saw it is you seeing that it was an emotional emotional situation for the applicant So you give them time to say their piece. Um, I wonder also, is it possible? I don't do do staff get a chance wait at least for the applicant. Maybe not for regular community members coming in um Do the staff have an opportunity to really talk to them about okay when you're presenting be sure you you keep with material evidence And stick to stick to that so that we keep it going. Do you have a chance to kind of coach them? Yeah, so I um, I did have a pre-submental meeting with um, john black and I think he was Well-versed in what needed to be presented and is the reason um, I think certain witnesses were there that were um, and so yeah, and I think um Yeah, it sounded like some other coaching had gone on as well. But yes, I do definitely talk with the applicants about um What would be helpful for you all um in bringing, you know expert testimony and not just depending on hearsay, etc right A little bit of clarification. I know that the board of adjustments. Um The phrase that that i'm often familiar with is burden of proof. I mean, is that what we're looking at here when we're weighing it against hardships and um, etc is is Material that shows a burden of proof that these are certainly a hardship for the applicant Krista kukra city attorney's office. I mean Right, so the standard uh by which you're judging it is a little bit different that that is true But the applicant still has a burden of showing that they have met the criteria Or that if they aren't going to meet the criteria that they somehow That there's a justification for that. So whatever the standards are the applicant does need to demonstrate um Either compliance or a good reason for the board to make the decision that the applicant is requesting and in the instance of extreme hardship Um, that burden would be on them to show what that is it's it's hard for me to Determine extreme hardship for a structure that was fairly recently purchased and the owners knew they were in a historic district And clearly they had all this background. They knew there would be a a contentious hearing. So in this case I had a hard time getting there I can understand if people are living in a home in a district and they need to do some repairs and They need to come to us to do that There could be a hardship But in this case, I had a hard time getting there simply because of the circumstances around that house Carl, how are we looking for next month? It sounds like we might have another busy docket Um, it's not a busy docket. I think we'll have we have two cases That are related. Actually, we have um demolition new construction On the same lot and then we also have an add-on that I'm like literally came in last night that we're fast-tracking Okay, great plus Case 14 from earlier today, right? Right So it looks like four. Okay. Yeah Well, good stuff everyone. Thank you so much for hanging in there. Uh, it was a marathon, but uh, I really appreciate it Thank you, man. Have a great have a good one. See you May Thanks