 Bueno, buenos días, buenas tardes, buenas noches. Desde Washington DC les habla Alejandro de la Puente. Hoy tenemos un muy increíble webinario de un colega, Javier Bertot, que está en el centro atómico de Bariloche y trabaja para, bueno, es el coordinador internacional de los proyectos Andes, que mide radios cósmicos y también es miembro de la colaboración Pierre Auger. Javier, ¿estoy streaming? ¿Puedes hablar inglés, por favor? Oh, perdón. Ah, eso es increíble. Es una buena cosa. Ahora estoy pensando en el español. Ok, perdón sobre eso, chicos. Ok, para aquellos que entendieron el español, es genial. Mi nombre es Alejandro de la Puente y voy a introducirlo a nuestro speaker hoy, Javier Bertot. Él está en el centro atómico de Bariloche y trabaja para la colaboración Andes y es miembro de la colaboración Pierre Auger también. Él trabaja en su PhD en la Universidad de Paris. Y hoy él nos va a contar sobre la laboratoria de Andes en Latinoamérica. Entonces, con eso, después de su conversación, vamos a abrir la pregunta. Y puedes siempre preguntar a tus preguntas si estás viendo esta vida a través de la pantalla de la cuesta en la derecha de su pantalla. Ok, gracias mucho, Javier, por tu tiempo. Y realmente aprecio que estás haciendo esto para las webinars de Latinoamérica. Ok, gracias. Muchas gracias por la invitación. Así que voy a intentar compartir mi screen para ver si pueden obtener las escuelas. ¿Claro? Sí. Ok. Entonces, voy a contarles sobre este proyecto que tenemos para tener una laboratoria en Latinoamérica y este proyecto. Así que, primero de todo, voy a comenzar con un discleimón. Como Alejandro ha dicho, soy un astrofísico de Cosmic Ray. He trabajado en Cosmic Ray por toda mi carrera hace más de 20 años ahora. Y voy a hablar de un lugar donde vamos cuando no queremos ver Cosmic Ray. Así que, si ha sido un par de años ahora, estoy aún no totalmente esperado en algunas de las topics que voy a hablar. Y también, es como un par de políticas. Voy a hablar de una facilidad. No es un par de físicos únicos. Por supuesto, voy a hablar de físicos. Pero no solo de físicos. Estos son los dos discleimónes para este par. Entonces, ¿por qué ir a la subterránea cuando puedas tener los vistos o las fotos que puedes ver en este slide? Bueno, básicamente es para obtener la radiación de la radiación. Entonces, cuando vas a la subterránea para obtener la radiación de la radiación de Cosmic Ray y, solo, para poner un poco de números, si consideras un detector de cúbicos cuadrados, un detector de cúbicos cuadrados, típicamente, desde la secundaria de Cosmic Ray tienes 10 a 8 muertes, gamas, electrones y positrones y 10 a 6 neutros todos los días en tu detector. Y si quieres ver los neutros y buscar la radiación de Cosmic Ray, y luego tienes un gran background, tienes que tener cuidado. Entonces, la radiación de los cúbicos cúbicos es realmente horrible. La razón por la que tienes esta mala radiación de los cúbicos cúbicos cúbicos cúbicos es que no tienes neutros o las radiación de Cosmic Ray hay muchos de ellos, pero son únicamente interactivos, que es lo que esperamos para la radiación de Cosmic Ray. Entonces, básicamente, la pregunta no es la pregunta de flux, entonces, si pones un material en el top de tu detector para proteger a Cosmic Ray, puedes llegar a las muertes, gamas y neutros y ir a las físicas interesadas en neutrinos y en las materias. Y ya que tienes que añadir mucho de de lo que usas para proteger a tu detector, usualmente, la única manera de la radiación es ir al bajo y usar la naturaleza para proteger a tus detectores. Entonces, si consideras una muertes, que es de, digamos, la búsqueda de Cosmic Ray que es el más penetrador de los particles, que quieres proteger a lo mayor. Tienes que ir desde un par de cien de estas muertes por un m2 para proteger, que tienen que ser mucho más bajos. Entonces, aquí tienes un gráfico y puedes ver la variación del flux de muertes como función de las muertes, de las muertes es, usualmente, cuando hablamos de las laboratorias en el campo, usamos mt de agua equivalente a la que, typicalmente, el rock es 2.5 mt o 2.7 mt de agua por mt de roca. Entonces, aquí ves un par de laboratorias con sus nombres de la que el flux va abajo. Y así que, típicamente, con un equivalente de 5.000 m tienes un rato de muertes de más de 1 m2 a cada día. Entonces, comparado a 100 m2 a cada segundo ves, es una gran reducción en la background Cosmic. Entonces, esto ofrece una venta para hacer un montón de experimentos que no serán posibles Entonces, ¿qué haces cuando estés en la background? Bueno, este es un campo muy activo y así que tengo este rato con algunos nombres de la presentación de una conferencia la Tope una conferencia hace muy pocos años creo que hace 5 años y entonces estas son las experimentas solo en la background entonces, hay realmente un montón de cosas en la background y básicamente los topics son de neutrino de la materia de la background. Entonces, no voy a entrar en los detalles en estas cosas o sea, sería muy largo entonces solo les doy algunos nombres y algunos nombres de estas cosas, por supuesto, podemos hablar de eso en las preguntas después de la presentación pero básicamente el neutrino es uno de los principales experimentos en la background y muchos nombres de precios que fueron en este tema y el último 3 años desde Cajita y McDonald's entonces tienes diferentes source de neutrinos que puedes detectar en la background pueden venir de reactor nuclear pueden venir de acelerator particular por ejemplo, de camion de acelerator particular por ejemplo, opera o dune cuando producen en CERN o en Fermilab y detectan 100 km de la en el detector underground pueden ser atmospheric neutrinos o atmospheric means produced in the interaction of cosmic rays in the atmosphere Solar neutrinos are produced in the sun Astrophysical neutrinos Solar are Astrophysical, but let's say further away from the sun for example, supernova neutrinos or even geonutrinos which are neutrinos produced in the earth, in the radioactive decays of uranium, thorium and potassium that is in the rock in the earth and actually it's believed that about half of the thermal balance of the earth is due to the heating of this nuclear decay so it's also an important field and so depending on which of these neutrinos you observe then the range of physics is also very wide and so you can look to understand neutrino oscillation try to understand to measure the masses neutrinos or at least the differences of masses, nature of the neutrino itself is a Mascherana or the Iraq particle or you can go to the astrophysics try to understand better the sun, the reactions which occur in the sun, the metallicity of the sun or the stars you can try to understand our supernova explodes and what's happening you can even look for the CMB neutrinos neutrinos from the early ages of the universe or you can use geophysics as I said with the geonutrinos and understand the thermal balance of the earth, maybe understand some movement geophysics basically so it's really a wide area of research based on only one particle this neutrino which you can you can study from underground then a second quite wide topic also is what is called multidisciplinary underground experiment so basically anything which is not neutrino or dark matter enters in this field and so I've put again geonutrinos for geoscience but also you can do things which are not high energy physics or particle physics with low frequency seismographs and other stuff you can do also biology or low radiation measurement which allows you to do some say material physics or climatology even some studies about wine so it's it's a topic which is not really related to what our field high energy physics is usually in but it's quite interesting so I've just put for example I'm not going to talk much about them but well it's this kind of thing for you it's funny to talk about it just a few minutes so one study is about heavy metals and plants so there are some plants which are probably able to clean the soil by taking for example lead out of the soil and processing it so the question is how do they do that and it's not easy to measure so normally what you have to do is you plant these things and then at some point you get some of them you cut them, you analyze them in a lab if you go underground then the amount of background radiation is so low then you could measure how the lead go through the plant by using some using radioactive lead and so you could measure in real time how this lead is going through the plant another study has to do with biology which is this cosmic radiation in fact on cells so we all know that when you increase the radiation you deal damage to to the cells but what is funny, it looks like there is a need for a minimum amount of radiation for the cells to train on how to repair DNA damage and it has been checked that cells which are grown in underground laboratory with no background radiation are actually less are more sensitive to damage than cells which are grown outside looks like they don't have the mechanism to repair when they get damage this is one kind of study also you can do in underground laboratories and there are some, for example studies, a population of Saudi and actually in Peru which is very important for economic reasons and the statistics you have on this population is just a few tens of years and if you go to low background radiation measurements taking some sediments from the coast you can get evolution in the last few hundred years and look at the impact of temperature of the water on these things and maybe make extrapolation of what can happen with global warming so some studies you would not expect to be done in underground laboratories can look at lead contamination on time scale of a few years where normally you cannot do that with resolution of more than tens of years in surface laboratory due to cosmic background you can look at beterrorate in chips IBM is doing this kind of studies in underground laboratories you can even look at the cesium in wine to be able to detect fraud of wines which are supposed to be 100 years old but in fact are just a few tens of years old so it's a wider area also of studies that you do in these underground laboratories which have nothing to do with our community of high energy physics except that sometimes some of a lot of these measurements are done with our detectors kind of techniques that we have developed in particle physics oops then one of the most exciting topics to do in these underground laboratories is looking for dark matters dark side of the universe so there is this quote that a friend of mine uses in his talk and I always like to use it because citing Donald Rundfeld in the physics talk is not so often there are no knowns these are the things we know known and knowns and also known so dark matter is kind of known and known so we know we are almost sure there is dark matter but we really don't know what it is so since I am a mathematician I am a mathematician of formation I have to say to Donald Rundfeld also the unknown knowns so the things we know but we don't even realize that we know the story so these known and knowns dark matters the amount of dark matter in the universe I am not the one now it is 24% we have less dark energy on 69 so basically 85% of the matter in the universe is supposed to be this dark matter and we have no clue of what it is we have seen it in many different observations from the CMB nuclear synthesis there are a lot of different studies rotation of galaxies in different scales and they are all coherent with this vision that 85% of the matter in the universe is from a non-bionic matter that we we really don't know what it is and there is this famous bullet cluster where you see two galaxies which have come and hit one another and you see the gas which is heated in between but when you look at where the gravity is the gravity is moved away from where you have the gas so it's also a good indication a good interpretation for these things is to believe that 85% of the of the matter in this galaxy was a dark matter and so during in the collision dark matter did not interact much one with another and so moved away and goes in in its normal direction while the matter interacts and stays behind so that's why you see light not where the matter is so basically everybody seems to well most people agree that we have dark matter now the question is can we detect it in an underground laboratory it's not easy but that's what we try to do so here is a well it's already a two years old graph of the limit now Xenon is a bit lower than Xenon and Lux so basically what you do when you want to look for that matter you put a detector ideally a big detector or at least a precise detector it's usually difficult to get both big and precise so you see there here crest and CDMS light which are kind of light detectors precise detectors and then Panayakis, Lux Xenon which are big detectors less precise detectors and so you try to to see an interaction which would be a dark matter particle getting into your detector through the thousands of meters of rock which protect your detector and produce some signal that you would associate to this dark matter particle usually it's a nuclear recall and you try to discriminate that from all the possible background sources you have most of them are not nuclear recall and so in the end you don't see anything usually and so you put a limit to the possible parameters of dark matter which are basically cross-section how much does this dark matter interact with our normal matter and what is the mass of this dark matter particle and so if it's heavy enough to interact on Xenon which are these experiments since they are very big you can put a very stringent limit but if it's not heavy enough to produce a significant signal in Xenon then you have to go to other material typically cilicium o germanium and so usually the detectors are much smaller so the limits are not as strong as in Xenon but you can go to a range of mass for the dark matter candidate which go to lower values now it's a very important topic such as it went to the big bang theory and there is one in particular which I like very old one season 2 where leonard and his mother talk about replicating the dark matter signal found in sodium iodide crystal by the Italians so that's the damaliver experiment in Gran Sasso which sees a modulation in the signal and the modulation which is compatible with signal coming from dark matter due to the modulation of the movement of the earth around the sun and the sun in the galaxy giving you a wind of dark matter and the funny thing of the story is that the mother says to leonard that it doesn't seem interesting to replicate an experiment actually it's something which is done a lot in the community because it's one of the very few experiments which has a potential signal but the issue with this with this signal is that it could be mimicked by for example atmospheric effects so basically you have an excess of count in June and a deficit of count in December which could be due for example to change it in the temperature in the high atmosphere and so changing the muon flux even if there is about the amount of difference in these things so one of the things you could do one of the things leonard could have answered to his mother is well I'm going to do it but in the southern hemisphere so in this case the atmospheric effect would be the opposite one while the dark matter modulation would be the same one problem is there is no laboratory in the southern hemisphere so here you see a map of underground laboratories and this is what allows me to introduce Andis and you see that all the laboratories are in the northern hemisphere in the US, Canada and Europe and some in Asia China now in Korea there is a plan for one in India and so as of today there is no laboratory in the southern hemisphere and so we that's where we come into play with Andis so Andis was started about 8 years ago when we learned about the jagua negra tunnel as the jagua negra this is a plan tunnel to be built between Argentina and Chile at this point the idea is to collect Argentina and Brazil mainly via Chile to the Asian market so it's of course for a commercial reason it would be two tunnels 14 km long and the deepest point more or less at the border between the two countries 1750 m so that's really a lot that would be one of the three or four deepest laboratories if we could build one here so then then they started a few years ago and construction is supposed to start next year so it's really happening now I'm not going to enter into the details but basically just to give more weight to the thing in December 2016 the IDB Interamerican Development Bank which is financing the project gave the first 40 million dollars to the project and last year 280 extra million dollars were approved for the project the total cost is about 1.25 billion USD so already about a fifth of the total cost is available for the construction so it's really starting now and it's going to stop unless Argentina crashes as you may have seen in the newspaper in the last few days but let's still be optimistic about the future so it's a great opportunity for us because to build a laboratory in a tunnel you have to do it when the tunnel is built once the tunnel is built it's impossible to get rid of all the rock needed to excavate the laboratory so it's now and ever and so it's a unique opportunity to build a deep laboratory and to make also a big laboratory at the same time so we wanted to to be important for its size and for its depth not only the fact that it is the only one in the southern hemisphere so of course being in the southern hemisphere added interest especially for us, for the locals and there are some some reason for, from the physics point of view also to do one-one in the southern hemisphere you will have the opposite weather modulation I talked about for dark matter signal you even have a daily modulation also in some models of self-interacting dark matter or things like that it's complementary for supernova neutrinos if there is a supernova explode you want to see neutrinos directly in the lab and also some going through the whole Earth to study MSW effect and those are studied like that if you want to study geo-neutrinos a background is coming from nuclear power plant and most laboratories are in well developed area where nuclear power is an important source of energy in Argentina there are a few nuclear plants here that are quite far away so the signal to noise ratio for geo-neutrinos is very high for the end of this location and it's also a geo-active region which makes it very interesting not for our high energy physics community but also for the geo-physics community and we wanted to have an important geo-science part into the lab which is not our main topic but it's a good opportunity to do that and so since the beginning we've proposed and there's to be not only a lab which would receive international experiments as any other lab it really ran as an international laboratory so it built something like a kind of a CERN but focused on underground science and our example we are taking currently is called CISAME which is the Synchrotron Radiation Facility in the Middle East where a lot of different countries which some of them don't even talk to one another are working together to make it so we are pretty sure we can do something similar in Latin America based on this experience and our ideas so of course it will be in Latin America so we wanted to have a strong component from Latin American countries but not only in Latin American countries we also have Germany, France, Italy, Spain the US, UK which are interested in working with us and we really want this to be international so the lab will be Argentina and Chile because it's in the tunnel and so it has to be international but this is just the physical cavities which are from both countries but then the lab in itself and the physics will be run by an international construction so the scientific program that we will have at the beginning for Andes is the one typically for any underground laboratories Neutrino, Dakmata, Geophysics, Biology low radiation measurement we will have a room for an accelerator to do nuclear tests for physics so I'm not going to enter into the details but well we can discuss about that in the question if you want so here are some examples of things we are discussing about for example the doublet headache experiment an example of superanimo or next two different technologies then the lab nuclear detector with argon we will have a large pit for such a detector Dakmata in Andes it's difficult to plan for 10 years Dakmata is a field where things evolve a lot but we want to to have a forced generation experiment and to work on new technologies dark sites so argon TPC is something very promising for the future due to the background rejection and getting argon nuclear astrophysics have an accelerator underground to do some measurements which are relevant for nuclear astrophysics there are a lot of things that we want to do in Andes which are in our scientific program so the first proposal we had when we started was to do something like that with a big pit, a big cavern an intermediate cavern and a few small ones for smaller experiments and this is our current conceptual design which was designed by Lombardy which is a Swiss firm which did a case for CERN and Gran Sasso and so on really know this one of the 3 big companies for underground construction and they are expert on the topic they are the ones who made the study who made all the design for the tunnel and so this is the current design for Andes with a big pit, a big cave a small one and a few offices for different studies total cost is about 40 million dollars so it's 2.5% of the cost of the tunnel and we want to keep it of course marginal since we want to head it as an overhead to the construction of the tunnel we've started 2 weeks ago to do the last modification to the design and to start the detailed engineering study with the people of Lombardy and so in particular we are adding a Geoscience area we are adding a bio laboratory we reordered some of the rooms added a new clean room added an accelerator room and all this trying to keep the cost close to 40 million dollars while making it more multidisciplinary this design the original one was more coming from our high energy physics community and so in the last few years we've discussed a lot, especially with the geo people to make this lab also as interesting as possible for them so in addition to this underground laboratory we will have support laboratories outside of the underground installations one of the things is the lab will be quite high the tunnel is at 4000 meters of altitude so this means there is no real installation close by to the tunnel so we need to have this support lab quite far from the tunnel we want to have one a big one in Lacerena which is also an EZO center a lot of telescopes in the area so this would be a one which is well connected to the outside with the big experiments another one in Argentina may be closer to the underground laboratory to have more the technical aspect day to day running of the experiments underground of course we have to integrate this with the local universities at the center and all this very important contact with the local communities we've got a huge international and institutional support I'm not going to enter into all these details but this has already has to get all the green light from the politics point of view both in Argentina and in Chile and in particular something which has been very important is the support of the anti-lab international tunnel which is a bi-national entity in charge of the tunnel from the political and technical aspect of the tunnel so they are the ones who decide what goes into the tunnel and so we got a first meeting with them in 2012 and then a second one last year which were very important for us to get the support and the green light of all the institutions in our countries another thing important was to get not only people telling us that it was a good idea to do that but also telling us that they wanted to work in this laboratory once it would be there so there are a lot of groups including in Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Mexico which are the four Latin American countries which I've been pushing for on this since the beginning and we've been discussing a lot with colleagues from Colombia to at Colombia after the election and the new president and when the science structure in Colombia will be a backup and also contact with other countries in Latin America to add them to the group interested in these so the timeline so how things have evolved in the last years so we started in 2010 we had the first three workshops in Argentina, Brazil and Chile then in 2012 we had the first big step since we were approved both by the Argentine ministry for science and technology and by these international entities every time so since then basically all the political aspect were sold and we had support to do the things we had a fourth workshop in Mexico in 2014 and at that workshop we created a unit into the class the class is the Latin American center for physics and so this unit gives us an official international status within the class as a support of UNESCO and this was also a way it's a way for us to get money from Argentina Chile to pay for studies and to work together under an officially international entity so with this unit we could contract this new conceptual design study in 2015 and so we got it at the beginning of 2016 with Lombardi and so we presented that to the AB10 and we got approved in July 2017 as an addition to the civil work of the tunnel and two weeks ago we finally got a cable from San Juan and Coquimbo as regions in Argentina and Chile to start the detail engineering study of the laboratory which is already half a million dollars so it already starts to be real money which is paid by these two provinces provinces and regions in Argentina and Chile and we need to finish this detail engineering study with Lombardi by the end of July this year to add Andes into all the tender document for the company to enter into the tender and to start construction in 2019 so we are already at the last phase of the design of the laboratory and starting to see the thing really becoming live so we take the opportunity to to invite you to join to our next workshop so the registration is open up to this Friday so join now it will be in Sao Paulo in Brazil August 4th to the 6th it's following a school on neutrino and dark matter two weeks before this workshop so also if you're a student or if you have students please look at this it is at the ICTP center in Brazil so have a look at it and inscribe yourself or inscribe your students so we can discuss about the future at this event so to conclude so this is a web page of Andes, you can get more information there I hope I convince you that this is really a unique opportunity that we have to build a radio world class deep underground laboratory one of a kind in the southern hemisphere operated by an international consortium there are some plans to have an underground laboratory in Australia which looked very promising a few years ago but the mine just closed two years ago and so I'm not sure if it will happen or not so it's either one of a kind laboratory or maybe the only laboratory in the southern hemisphere and in any case it will be deeper and bigger than what is planned in Australia and this will really be a world class laboratory on the map and it's a great opportunity for us in Latin America to be part of it so that's it, thank you very much well thank you so much very nice talk so now I'm going to to open the floor for questions from the audience here and then maybe a couple of questions from the actual streaming so does anybody would like to have a go at a first question I have a question oh Nicolas go ahead Nicolas so thank you Davi for the nice talk so I wanted to ask you what happened to this laboratory in Australia I don't know the only thing I know is from newspaper that I'm following so basically it was supposed to be SUPL it was supposed to be built in an active mine and the mine closed because well it was not not producing money enough and so when the mine closes and it starts to be very expensive to have a lab because the access to the mine to the underground is actually very expensive to run so in the snow lab for example I think the access itself costs something like 40 million dollars per year so of course in snow lab it's an active mine so they don't pay for it the company pays for it so that's why it works but if the mine is not working it's very difficult to be operating so I tried to enter the web page of the laboratory some days ago and it was down the last news in google news are from last year and they are not very positive so it's a tough topic actually here in Argentina there has been an underground laboratory in the 90s in a mine not very far from byloche 800 kilometers from here in Sierra Grande where Frank Avione and colleagues made some dark matter experiment in 1993-95 to try to see some daily modulation of the signal and then it closed because the mine closed we are now actually trying to get it to get it up again to have something to play with before we get endies and actually it's not easy because the price for underground went too low it's not worth for the company to keep it operating and so it's not maintained it's just kept at a very low level and it's very difficult to access it so this is I think it's kind of the issue that they had in Australia thank you so this will be really the first laboratory multi-purpose laboratory so it will start operating sort of 2017 no no 2029 yeah when the tunnel opens which officially should be 2027 of course like all of us I've given this talk tens of times and I go modifying the slides from one talk to another and so if I look at my first slides in 2011 I think it was supposed to be open in 2019 so next year now it's it moves by one year every year but now basically the issue was that there was no financing for the tunnel and now there is financing from the IDB so I think it's pretty sure in 2027 let's say with the delays from construction 2029 and are they at least for neutrino physics or dark matter searches has anybody started with this detector in mind do any preliminary work on sensitivity analysis or what you would expect to observe in particular I guess the modulation that I guess dam observes and that is served in this detector in principle right yeah so there are a few studies of these things so there is one paper which is actually one of the modulation from damalera for example and you may want a similar experiment so here for example there is this study in archive for quite a few years ago on what you could do with a supernova neutrino detector in Andes and how it is complementary from observation from the current laboratories in Europe in Japan and the ice cube which is also a good detector for this kind of for dark matter it's a bit more difficult because it's a big time scale neutrino physique we more understand what we want to do but dark matter is a field which is changing very very fast so we have idea of what to do now but for example a modulation from damalera even if we mention that at the same point I would expect this topic to be closed by this time there is for example a cosine experiment in Korea which is running right now so they have kind of the same modulation but not exactly the same and so with their measurements they should already be able to discard damalera if it's not a genuine dark matter effect as most of the community is believing now if they have the same signal as damalera then we might actually need to do something in Andes I have one more question another important topic is to say that so for us of course it's interesting to go into the field but it's also important I think for the underground physics community to get big space of labor in the south and to get man power right so our community in Latin America we've been doing let's say theoretical physics for many years because there was no money last 10, 20 years we've been starting to do quite a lot of real experimental energy physics so in Andes and Tina there is OJ of course colleagues from Brazil and Mexico and now Colombia but there is also well a lot of people who have been working in Fermilab and now working and so we already have a critical mass in HEP experimental physics which could bring a lot to the underground physics community so we can also come maybe not with a lot of money as long as our country still has these regular crisis but at least with a well formed high energy physics community to contribute to so I think that's also an important aspect from the political point of view do you envision the South Americans do their own research and development when it comes to design because I mean you I like that it is a political talk a little bit because I think an underground laboratory in South America will just create more I guess the capacity we need in order to start leading in research and development but we still probably wouldn't want all the technology to keep coming from other places instead think about making our own technologies I mean I can talk for example about OJ in battery in Argentina largest cosmic ray of battery on earth so we've been running for about 10 years and in 2015 we've been developing an upgrade of the OJ and so five projects we are competing and the project which one was a project we proposed here by Loche so we have the capacity to design experiments at the level which is competing with Europe now the thing is the project in itself building the 1,600 detectors 15 million dollars is something which the whole collaboration is going to do and actually most of it will be done in Europe because also that's where they have the capability to build this and so if we have the laboratory here we really have to develop this capability and last month we had a meeting in Argentina I put the picture so this is me so we had this workshop which was fundamental meets technology where we discussed how can we from fundamental physics make experiments which are 10 million euros timescale 100 million euros and we don't do the experiment in our lab but we need as a private sector to do the technology part at least part of it and so we have more integration between the public sector and the private sector and so at this table this is the Minister for Science this is Oscar Calceta who is the head of the atomic energy this is the head of INVAP which is a company which makes satellites a nuclear reactor technology sector petroleum company in Argentina this is the head of the science agency space agency in Argentina so it's these kind of things which won't happen if we don't have these kind of labs in our region so I think this is also very important in the link between our let's say high energy physics in fundamental area and the society technology if you look at Sun or Snow Lab for every dollar or euro which is invested there is something like 3 dollar or euro of economic impact there is all this high technology society which is developed around these labs so this is something we also want to do so this is not the reason why we built this lab we want to do basic physics but this is also something which will help I think in other countries and we want to develop Argentina and Chile are the ones with the most benefit of it but this is also a degree we have to spread through the continents the whole Latin American continent yeah thank you thank you so much anybody would like to ask another question yeah I have a question for Javier yeah very nice the talk is very enlightening how this laboratory could bring a lot of benefit for the Latin American community in research but the same stuff that you were talking before how to spread the collaboration for other countries how is more or less the procedure if some institution want to join the consortium or want to participate is it kind of organization by country in each country there is kind of a structure or directly institution can contact and this committee to see if there is a possible way to participate in the project yeah so right now we are not we are not very well organized let's say the thing that they are so yeah so we've been looking a lot at CISAMI for example how they are organized how the structure is organized and we want to build something similar but we've not built anything yet the reason for that mostly was that up to let's say a few months ago we had all the green light but not anything real being done by any of the interested country even in Argentina we had a green light from the minister of science who is the same minister since we started the project so everything was supposed to be perfect but we didn't get a single peso from the ministry to do anything so in this status we were still at the level where different physicists and different institutions were talking among themselves but we didn't have anything at the level at an official level so it changed in the last few months so in Argentina we have now an official agreement signed between the minister for science the head of the atomic energy commission the head of the Iconicet national institute for science let's say and the governor of San Juan province in Chile they have an official task force led by Iconicet with representative of various ministries and the region so we already have official groups and then we had this class and this unit and it's still not clear how we organize all the different groups but since these are more or less the same people we managed the thing but I would say with the next two years we will have to work on building this cesami-like structure so that we can have an official way to get into Andes so as of today if you are interested if your institution is interested or if your country is interested the best way is to contact us so you can write at info at andeslab.org or just send me a mail and we discuss on how to do that for example so we have an official representative in Argentina, in Chile, in Brazil and in Mexico and for example we are discussing with Colombia the integration of Colombia here is Marta Lozada with whom I have been discussing and so currently our status is to wait the election and everything to settle in Colombia so that we can start to see at which level we make an agreement with Colombia to get officially Colombia in the group then we have agreement signed between Argentina and Germany France and Italy so Germany is Helmholtz France is CNRS and Italy is INFM which include Andes as topic for research so we are working with DOE and Fermilab so as of today it's not really organized so I would suggest if you and your group or your institution is interested to contact me and we discuss on how to plan that and basically to discuss on how you expect in the future your country to be part of it so our idea is to do something like CERN so to have maybe two representatives for country one which is from the science part and one which is from the agency so the financing part and this is what they have done and it seems to work so I don't know if I answered your question but that's more or less I will see the things for the next few years It's nice to know how it's going to be more the planning of the structure of the organizational aspect of the land and this so another question was regarding how is the also the maybe the synergy with the other experiments even though they are not exactly in the same topic but the community could be transfer some technology knowledge and stuff like this also in the side of Chile there are all the part of the observatories that also could benefit for knowing some aspect about neptrin or multi messenger or something like that do you know if there is also planning to use like a half for this research to meet and appoint something like that yeah, yeah, this has been so Andes we started about on a approach so we started contacting a lot of colleagues visiting a lot of laboratories and from all the feedback we had we ended up with this proposal in one of my first talk there was a few options for Andes and one of them was just discussing with the company of having one of the small security tunnel let's say 20 square meters closed and available to do one small experiment with colleagues of mine it was not clear how the community would be receptive to the idea so we really started both on up and we got a lot of positive feedback and a lot of colleagues interested in it so that's why we ended up with such a big lab because 40 million dollars for us it's a big amount so for example OJ in Argentina OJ will finish in 2025 so Andes is the natural project after Andes, after OJ and so I'm from OJ been working for 20 years in OJ and our group is looking into Andes and people in Buenos Aires are looking into Andes it's a natural continuation let's say of OJ and colleagues working in LHC we are also talking with them so of course you are now fully dedicated to LHC and Atlas and Ren2 so this is your main topic but maybe you could start having one student working in underground physics so starting to have 10%, 20% of your time looking at it and in 5 years having 30% of your time and in 10 years having half of your lab working in underground physics and in Andes and in Chile it's the same thing so they started high energy physics experimental work only 10 years ago in Valparaiso and now they are building part of the small wheel a grade of the Atlas detector and so they are really putting Andes on their map for the development within the next 10 years and from the telescope community we are working on this synergy actually people from the telescope community are helping us a lot on the structure as the other one who suggested us to look at the structure and there is also some interest from the Chilean government because up to now the telescopes and the ESO has been something like well come put your telescopes and do basically what you want so they are eager to have a more active participation in the project so there has been a workshop a few years ago about synergy between high energy physics and astronomy astronomy used to be one scientist doing one observation and working in his lab with this data now it has moved to the SST so these are terabytes of data and so they kind of need our approach of running scripts and batches on tons of data and just looking at histograms and things we've been doing in particle physics for tens of years so there is also a natural synergy between high energy physics and astronomy so all this is really moving well together I think for Latin America all the experience we've built with Auger, with collaboration with Fermi Lab at D0 and Tevatron Time and now with LHC it is a very good base to have this critical mass for Andes Yeah, it's a very nice opportunity for the region in fact Thank you I have a quick question What about the people working on site I mean, where are they going to live? Yeah, so we have so we plan to have the Argentine lab we don't have exactly well defined where the two support lab will be we have to discuss also for political reason with the local government to see what is best for all of us if you put it very close to the lab you are quite far from the university so it will be very only operational but one thing we are going to have is the tunnel itself and a portion of both countries will be national and custom so we still have custom in Latin America it's not like Europe Argentina to Chile you have to go through custom sometimes quite an hour or a few hours to cross the border and so the custom is not at 4,000 meters of altitude it's much lower, 2,000 something and so at the portals there will be offices and we are discussing with the EBITAN to have quite a few offices at both sides where the people who are actually working everyday underground could stay and have just a few tens of kilometers of driving to do everyday not hundreds of kilometers would be in the support laboratory so our idea is to have the support laboratory more connected let's say to the universities where you have research groups working day to day but not going to the underground laboratory everyday and then when you go to the underground laboratory and you have to work let's say for a week in the installation of the detector calibration then you would stay in some offices which are close by to the laboratory I see so the control rooms would be at the support labs yeah the idea is it's already happening in most experiments you always want I mean even if you go to snow lab snow lab is a fantastic laboratory but to go underground is not trivial and you have to be there when the cage is going down because it's run by the mine and if you go after half an hour you finish your work well you have to wait 4 hours until there is a cave going up so it's it's not as easy as you want so everybody is trying to to have the experiments run alone as much as possible and to be controlled by with remote control room as much as possible even in OJ we are operating our telescopes with remote shift as much as possible because it's expensive to send people to Argentina to the site and so so this is something that I guess most experiments will try to run as independent and as remote as possible but of course then you need to fix things when they break you need to install the detector you have to calibrate it from time to time you have to refill the cryogenic liquid or whatever you have to put a radioactive source for some specific calibration so of course you have to go there from time to time so for this specific operation we will have sites which are very close to the lab and then most of it we will try to do as remotely as possible and in 10 years probably things will be even more remote than what we are doing right now well I think thank you I think we are on the hour and I want to thank Xavier for his time and for the talk and we really look forward to this experiment to take off in the very near future for us to keep growing as a as a continent and as a scientific enterprise so thank you Xavier and I'm going to stop the broadcast now and if you like you can stay and chat some more but no pressure well thank you folks for joining us today keep an eye out for the next webinar which is coming soon and we look forward to seeing you goodbye