 Dave White and Bonnie Stewart. Everybody is a presenter because it's gonna be a very interactive session. So we're giving all participants who are joining presenter lights will be recording the session. And I'd just like to ask you please to put your hands together or give us a smiley face to give both Bonnie and David a very warm welcome at OER20. Good morning everybody. Good morning. For me it's super morning. So I actually feel like I'm up in the middle of the night with all of you. It feels strangely intimate, although not. In a fun way. Not the most kind of caring way to be up, but that's all right. I'm Bonnie Stewart. I'm in Windsor, Ontario in Canada. And I'm Dave White and I am in Oxfordshire, the Shires in the UK. And so we want to open by trying something just sort of to get a sense of everyone who's with us. If you're able, I'd love to see if you're able to go to the top of your screen right now and find either a pencil icon or the large T. And if you're able to type in or scroll in or draw in or throw in a picture of where you're based this morning. Now, Meron has agreed to give everyone presenter access so that you're able to use this feature of Collaborate. If everyone doesn't mind not moving the slide forward but just writing on it, that's much appreciated. Thank you. We have Cardiff, we have Valencia, we have Glasgow, we have Isle of Wight and Enfield, all kinds of places, South Africa. Why I grew up on the Isle of Wight? To you. Yeah, that's a long story. But I remember when I was on the Isle of Wight, knows how specific the Isle of Wight is culturally. I'll leave it there. Wow, there's a good range of people. And what I like about this is that it's occasionally I forget that we're in geographically different places because the web has just become the one place to rule them all in the last few weeks. And doing this is just a really amazing reminder of what the technology is doing for us in some ways. Yeah, it's a totally different time of day for many people. Someone's in New York, Leamington Spa. Okay, thank you so much for being here. And the other question that we wanted to kind of open with because it's strange times, Jim Luke, Detroit Strong. Good morning, Jim. How are you doing? This is an odd frightening experience for many of us. Not so much hopefully being here and collaborate, but I would love to just kind of give everyone a chance to let us know what kind of space you're in. I myself found that knowing that I had to get up this morning was something that made it very, very difficult for me to go to sleep. And that isn't totally unnatural for me, but I've been realizing that one of the ways that I've been managing my own anxiety, I guess, in this time is just being like, oh, well, I don't have to get up. I'll sleep when I sleep. It's fine. But the minute that I told myself, oh, you need to get some sleep, suddenly that I managed to think about a lot of things that probably aren't conducive to going to sleep. I'm glad to hear some folks are doing really well and really happy and other folks are feeling a bit trapped, a little anxious, a little confused. Some others are struggling with proper sleep. The juggling work with kids home is something, someone has a partner who's a frontline health worker who was at the hospital all night. That's a whole family experience that has to be really hard on lots of fronts. And I have huge thanks for all families that are navigating that. So varied is the answer. Yeah. Which is fair enough. And I think we want to run the session taking into account the larger facts that we're all in various different states and what have you. We want to try and be caring in the session itself. So we're gonna try and go a pace that's perhaps slightly slower than we normally would and we'll see where we get to. But it's really good to get the feel of the room. And as with any sessions like this, it's nice to, I mean, even now I feel like I kind of know people just a little bit. Whereas at the start of the session, people were just a list of names. So I mean, I do know some of you as well, but these kind of little moments that are really important to me right now. All right, shall we move the slide ahead? Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks for engaging in that. So our goal today was to open a conversation around open pedagogy and the idea of how does it impact system care? How does it scale to care? Spoiler alert, we have never been short of the time that we proposed this session that it does. And at the same time, so much ground is shifting under our feet right now that we wanted to make sure that we kind of acknowledged the current moment, this, here it's getting called the pivot to online. I'm not sure what it's being called where everyone is, but this kind of mass online-ness that is really new and a little bizarre for many of us who've been working in this space for a decade or more. Suddenly, everyone is here, at least in some sense, but we're also seeing new concerns rise. To me, it's a really, really important moment to talk about open pedagogy, to talk about the values of open pedagogy and to talk about perhaps what we do lose or what comes into further attention when we have mass numbers of people online. So Dave, do you wanna talk about the pocket idea particularly? It comes out of Christina Hendricks. Thank you so much, Christina, for this. She went back to 1979 and found a Canadian original definition of foundational values of open pedagogy. Yeah, I think I'll move on to the next slide, actually, to talk about scale, because one of the things that's... So I'm head of digital learning at the University of the Arts London, which is Europe's slash maybe the world's largest art and design focused entire education institution. And so I think one of the things that was really important to me when we were... Well, it's both of us when we were developing this session is to acknowledge scale. I think a lot of the discourse around the idea of care, open pedagogy and digital sort of works quite well if you've got a small amount of students, but certainly my personal concern is that as the cohort size gets bigger, the pressure on the teaching staff to provide scale becomes more and more. And so a lot of the discussion around care is about treating students as individuals, building relationships and those kind of methods, but can you do that with 500 students or do you just become exhausted? So putting my institutional hat on, I was concerned that this focus on kindness and care the net result might be to just simply have the people that were most sincere in terms of staff burning out. And so I think it's important to acknowledge that and that's why we put the session together in the way that we did. Just coming back on what Bonn said about us being suspicious that actually it's not scalable with open pedagogy, it's been, yeah, I'm currently teaching 2,400 students. So in essence, you're not gonna be having a nice chat with each of them, okay? So I- I'd love to hear how you are. Yeah, yeah. So I think we've actually, it's been a difficult session to design because actually so much of this is intention with each other and so much of these themes are intention with each other and that's what we want to explore. Just sort of setting that up there. Should we move to the next question, Bonn? Because- Sure, I don't wanna do, so I have taught for about 20 years but mostly in, with the privilege of teaching relatively small classes. I've also worked as staff and had to do some work that was more institutionally focused in terms of PD or faculty development with my larger numbers. And I find that the capacity to do that kind of individual connection that I think of the work of open pedagogy as based in because that kind of the Puckett definition that Christina Hendricks had drawn out and put forward identifies three sets of tensions that are foundational values. One is autonomy and interdependence. One is freedom and responsibility and one is democracy and participation. I'm always working to encourage participation in my any kind of class setting or any kind of facilitated setting that I work with but it is generally easier for me at least in terms of the open pedagogy practices that I have showing folks how to engage with networks, et cetera when there is a small enough group that I could see how people are doing. Not all of you may be teachers and I recognize that. So we kind of put teaching and learning here but I'd love to see and hear what kind of contexts are familiar for you. Thanks for moving that whoever moved the full sentence down just so we can see everybody's. So we've got five to 500, 140, 50 to 200, 25 to 500, up to 300, 15 to 50. Yeah and I think there's a, sorry, Bob. I think there's a question here is to what's a reasonable group size before these kind of very human, very connected way modes of care start to break down or start to become very difficult to support and then what techniques can we use to ensure that care is part of what we're doing but isn't as I say running around and having a chat with everybody. And is that even, I mean, we're looking at quite, some pretty big ranges in here. And one of the things about the internet, for me when I first began teaching online that I had to adapt for, I think I recall Stephen Downs writing a post about this, I don't know, 12 or 13 years ago but the distinction between a group and a network and when you are in a face-to-face class, you can see everyone who is there and even the person who doesn't engage, I can see them sitting at the back of the class potentially kind of with that having a smoke at the back of the class look on their face and recognize that that in itself is a form of communication. But in an online class, I can see names in a chat room, I can see names on a syllabus potentially, but once you get over 20 or 30 people, I'm not able in any moment to draw someone out or to recognize silence as communication from a specific individual. You can't see the room in the same way. And so it's figuring out how to engage with care while engaging in open pedagogy is one of those challenges when you have a network rather than a group that's totally visible to you. If we all do have presenter access, super, thanks. So if you don't mind not playing with the arrows, that would be great because you can move the slides as we've just figured out and that's totally okay. Thank you everyone for contributing to those numbers. Once you've moved a slide back and forth, you do lose the interactions, but I think we got a great sense of what kind of spaces people are accustomed to. Summing is saying their largest class is actually about 660, but our largest room only seats about 400, so you have to break that group up. And just moving forward, I noticed that Ara's BuzzCurdy's here from Turkey and Ara's, I don't know if you're actually, I'm gonna put you on the spot, are you willing to take the mic if you want just to tell people about the size and scale of students that you work with? No pressure, maybe a little pressure. Oh, thank you, Ara's. Go ahead, just hit, are you able to speak? I don't think your mic is on, Ara's. No, can't hear you, sorry. I had actually asked Ara's last, no, you go ahead. If you wanna keep trying, that's cool or jump in, but I can also try to articulate this and you can correct me in the chat, I'm good with that. Can you hear me now? Can hear you now, wonderful, welcome. Sorry, it was by default muted, my microphone, and I couldn't consider to unmute it anyway. I want to tell you about some Anatolian university. We had a conversation earlier. It is one of the largest university by student number. We have three million students and around one million, these students are taking their courses in each term. Our classes changed from 1,000 to 300,000. I mean, it's really large. So last December, Ara's and I ended up in Barcelona at the same time and got to meet up for the first time and after having been online colleagues for quite a few years and he was talking about his classes and my jaw was, there was a scale there that I just hadn't even considered, right? I have heard of classes of 600, but the up to 300,000 was, and three million was just kind of beyond my realization. And so there are spaces and scales, particularly as we move online and higher ed shifts that go past the capacity to make individual connections with other people, where you are dealing with broadcast communication by default and a huge scale by default that impacts the types of practices that I know how to use. And so this was part of the conversation that Dave and I were having was around how do we facilitate a conversation that brings some of these huge scale questions to the table? And then, of course, the current situation, what is it, this unprecedented time, I think is the quote that I keep reading and just about every communication from my own institution and every other institution. And I have to say, I give my own institution reasonable props for dealing with this thus far in as humane a manner as they've been able to. But there is a real challenge as we try to move whole institutions online, rather than just, oh, that's Bonnie, that's what she does. Sure, her classes are going to be there and some other faculty's classes are going to be there, but we have never done a whole kind of scale. Move online as an institution like we are doing now. And everything at my institution will be fully online till at least September and we'll see afterwards. How many of you is that the case for? Is it just in the chat, if people don't mind sharing, have your institutions almost all said that they would go fully online or yours is Dave? Yeah, I mean, I think at this point, most spaces have confirmed that. Kate Murphy pivoted to teaching sculpture online in the last two weeks. Yeah, and I mean, for some of us, particularly when we do hands-on kind of work, there are real challenges with this, right? In the summertime, I'm working with some faculty who teach in our University of Windsor. It's called the TechEd program and it's a program, it's essentially an adult ed style program for folks who wanna teach automotive, welding, any of the sort of technical education classes in our Ontario high schools. And a lot of those classes, I think culinary, hair styling, those are not things that normally are not taught with some kind of very, very hands-on components. So these are folks who are going to be teaching for experts in their field, but those fields are very hands-on. And the people who are teaching them are accustomed to working with them face to face. And so make that adaptation is a real change. I'm just noticing what Gabby is saying. There's a real fear of talking about student engagement online really weird yet. They just wanna focus on the tech. One of the things that I'm seeing is a shift to the content pushing out. And sometimes when people are anxious, particularly people, and I don't mean diagnosably anxious, but rather just put into a new situation that creates that, oh my goodness, I don't know what I'm doing. The default is to fall back on the things that you already know how to do, which may be to consider how many hours you're spending as you're teaching or what you're pushing out to students as you're teaching. And so we're seeing that response from faculty. And then, yes, as Gabby points out on the other side, and I'll talk about this a little bit in the debate that Dave and I are setting up, content. The commercial big names and corporate names in our field just who've been waiting in the wings for a moment to push forward shifts that may be very concerning to us all. I'm just reading the chat here, Dave, is there anything else that you want to... I mean, I'm currently, I drafted a first version of an online student engagement policy for UAL, for my institution yesterday. And I think it's a really, really tricky area. In my institution, we're actually the the tricky area is going the other way, not content, but making everything a Blackboard Collaborate session and having nothing else around it. Because obviously, and I think that's reasonable, but I think in terms of care, that is troublesome because this is a very particular mode, only certain people can engage with it technologically, only certain people can engage with it in terms of literacies and all of the rest of it. And so, in terms of trying to create a fair and relatively equitable environment, the advice that we're giving is that you need balance of content and contact. That's the simplest way we could put it. So that's been our response. But we'll get to that later. I feel like I'm undercutting our own workshop. So should we move on to the next bit? There's some great chat in there and it is really interesting times. And just the last thing on this, I think sometimes I'm seeing people who don't operate online as a matter of course are imagining that they just need to find like a silver bullet platform. And it's always the platform that the university doesn't own, whichever one it is. So we're trying to put, again, for me, as ever, there's this real need to have an emphasis on what teaching is and teaching practices in and through the technology. So for me, in simple terms, it's all the same as it ever has been, but we need to emphasize it even more right now. Do you know what I mean? Everything we're saying is just good practice that's been good practice for 20 years. It's finding a way of suddenly doing that in two weeks. So to focus that down a little bit, the initial thing that Dave and I had planned was a debate. I drew the short straw. We wanted to talk about the idea of care in open pedagogy, and at the same time, the surveillance that often gets opened up when people engage in what works as open pedagogy for us. And so I am about to make a case that online, open pedagogy online promotes a culture of care. And to some extent, so I'm gonna leap in. Dave, I have never done a parliamentary debate before. I do not know the proper terms to use. Can you just give me a timeframe so that I can be gone? To be reasonable, I think you should have like five minutes, Max, and I'll let you know. We're not gonna do like a full on debate, really. One's gonna present one side of the argument. I'm gonna present the other side of the argument just so that we can just to kind of frame up a discussion that we can all have in a moment. So debate's probably a strong word. It's probably like one side and then the other side. So would you, because we just thought it'd be a fun way of getting through a lot of material, I will hand over to you, Bon, and I will raise my hand when you get to five minutes. How's that? I'd rather like a nice loud gong, actually, but if you wanna play, that would be very caring. I'll make a gong noise at you, then. All right, and I will actually try to be concise because I just, if I am missing points that are relevant for you, please do feel free to continue to share them in the chat. I wanna talk about open pedagogy as for me founded in those three sets of tensions and values that podcast brings out autonomy and interdependence, freedom and responsibility and democracy and participation. For me, open pedagogy is always student-centered. It puts learners at the center because it's focused on networked engagement. That I recognize that when I'm teaching from an open pedagogy perspective, I'm teaching from a place or I'm engaging as a facilitator from a place where I recognize that everybody's already in their own space. Everybody's already in their own life. They may not be familiar with the things that I'm trying to teach, but they do know things and I'm looking at them as an autonomous person but also us as an interdependent we, whatever that we or community is for that moment and that the learners have the opportunity and the freedom to take what they're going to take out of that experience that I'm sort of setting up for them and that to some extent I'm not fully in control of it, that there is a democratic element where if enough of them have a particular perspective, we're going to shift but through their participation to do different things. A few years back, I actually, I did my PhD in Twitter as one does perhaps and what I wanted to look at was how academics networked participation kind of lines up against their formal institutional academic engagement and my thesis findings, I'm just gonna throw a paper into the chat here but my thesis findings included a core realization that for many folks who engage in open online practices, pedagogical and also just scholarly more broadly, care is central. Networks both visibly amplify vulnerability and they also amplify care and so there's a really important for me if we can just stay on this slide. There we go. For me, there's a really important thing where engaging online in a network makes you more visible than you would other be and therefore more vulnerable to certain kinds of for instance, scholars of color, students of color, women who have strong opinions may be dragged down or piled onto more so than they might be if they were less visible but also it opens up vectors for people to express care for them in many real ways. In terms of care right now, networks are the thing and my open networks are the thing that are getting me beyond my house. At a personal level, I've got a bunch of groups that I'm in DM chats and Twitter humor my networks are giving me resources for homeschooling my kids, homeschooling my kids. I'm doing a lot of crowdsourcing of my networks but open networks also open the world of participatory education to my kids where they get the chance to for instance, our music class yesterday was I needed them to leave me alone for a little while so I sent them upstairs, one with the guitar and they ended up recording a version of Puff the Magic Dragon after much fighting which they then put out onto the internet as their music class, they're contributing to knowledge abundance, right? They're getting comments on that. They're getting a sense of work that they're doing with real audiences and I think that that can matter a great deal and in terms of open pedagogy, I see that capacity to contribute to real audiences and that validation hand in hand with some of the trusting of students no matter the size of class. In terms of for instance, the advocacy that we're seeing right now to trust students in the face of online proctoring services or the push, hey, don't be just giving exams right now trust your students, different ways to engage, don't just surveil them but there is a tension between trust and care that I can extend through networks in any kind of facilitation setting and that surveillance nature of most of the tools that I'm using, my kids put their video out on Facebook. I know that Facebook is a huge flawed space and a huge flawed system and so the question, thank you that beautiful girl, so the question of how do you scale caring? I think network scale becomes overwhelming for people. Sometimes I have too many DM chats but more importantly, we're often doing open pedagogy on non-open platforms and the platforms are corporatized to extraction and surveillance. So Dave, take that energy. She did at the end there a little bit, I feel. Just a little bit. Yeah, okay, so if you can time me for five, I'm gonna talk about surveillance side and I think, and I'm starting now, so I think this is all the more important given the current situation where everybody's piling online but what I wanna do is to come back to open pedagogy because the question is open pedagogy and online promotes the culture of care. Does it actually, the key word is promotes there, okay. And just in the middle of the Hendricks quote earlier about open pedagogy, there were these things mentioned, individualized learning, learner choice and self-direction, okay and what I want to argue is that these things in the digital are actually now fundamentally in kind of unrecognizable attention with each other. So everything that Bonn said, I agree with to a certain extent, I think that it is possible for open pedagogy to promote a culture of care. The point I'm making is not that that isn't effective in of itself, the point I'm making is that the digital environments that we're in are actually set up such that every moment of care becomes a moment, a potential moment of surveillance. So when we talk about care, it's a very interpersonal human thing, but all of those connections with each other, all of those conversations, all of those moments of helping each other, all of those moments of kindness, they're all tracked by the platforms. And so as we go about our caring, we're expanding what Zuboff, so this is a book that I've been reading, which is the age of surveillance capitalism, we're expanding what Zuboff calls the shadow text, the data text that's underneath all of these platforms. And you guys know this probably because you've come to OER, so you're probably aware of this, but I wanna set it, I wanna give it an educational and a care kind of context. So for me, the language of care is the language of surveillance, okay? I'm not saying that care doesn't exist, but I'm saying that they're becoming one and the same thing, because here's the proposition in the digital. We can care for you as long as you tell us about yourself. If you relinquish your rights to your own identity, to your own data, to your own connections, if you relinquish your rights to privacy, to your own ability to have your own internal intellectual world, then we can care for you. So words like personalization are a catchall for both what appears to be care, but definitely surveillance, okay? Because we will personalize your education, you just have to give up all of your data. So on the one hand, it appears to be caring because it appears to be focused on the individual, but on the other hand, actually, it's just growing that shadow text. And the shadow text is there, so the good old fashioned capitalism can manipulate us so that people who run the platform can do what's called a kind of social physics and nudge us. And of course, everybody wants our students because they are the graduate, they're gonna graduate, they're gonna be the people that are likely to be earning the most money in the future. And you might say, well, Dave, that's fine, that's what Google and Amazon and all those evil people are doing, but actually, I'd say that education is sleepwalking into exactly the same setup. So if we think about learner analytics, if we think about smart campus, if we think about the way that we use a lot of third-party providers, everything we say when we talk about care is going into that data and is eventually controlling us and we're losing our self-determination. So I just wanna finish by going back to that quote, individualized learning, learner choice and self-direction. What I'd say is in the in current environment that individualized learning and the apparent learner choice is actually reducing self-direction. And so often our attempts at care and certainly institutionalized versions of care are actually reducing our own self-determination because we're trying to provide students with funnels that they can go down and with answers to questions that they haven't even asked yet. So we're losing our agency. And for me, education is about facilitating agency. It's about encouraging students to have the confidence to find their own agency in the world. And this is my concern. I gotta stop there. Dave, I agree with many of the things you said. I said, I think you might. Yeah, no, I mean, fair enough. And one of the questions for me is how do we engage students in any kind of open and online spaces, particularly those that are not open source in their origins, even open source spaces still have learning analytics and surveillance capacity built into them at increasingly institutional scales. So the question there that Jim's bringing up, right, is nudging even compatible with true caring or is it fundamentally antithetical? If I'm pushing you towards, and this is not limited to the digital, if I am nudging you in towards being a good student whatever that means, am I truly expressing care for your agency? So these are real questions for us. Dave's gonna talk a little bit about speculative design. So this is what we wanna do. We just wanted to set that all up and we wanted to be completely honest about where we are with this. I think just on a very personal note, sometimes the discourse around care and teaching in the digital, it just makes me feel guilty rather than supports me in knowing how to respond. So we wanted to open up that discussion. So what we were gonna do if we were face to face was the speculative design exercise. I think what we're gonna simplify that, I just wanted to put this in front of you as a really interesting way of kind of imagining futures. I think what happens is things can become operational very quickly. So the idea of speculative design is that it doesn't try and extend the current position into a future and it doesn't necessarily operate within the restrictions of who and what our institutions are now, for example. So it is a speculation on the future and what you might come up with might not be possible, but it might be probable or it might be something that's worth thinking about. So it's like a blank canvas starting point. But in truth, I think what we wanted to do because then the whole world changed in about, for me, about four days, I'd say, in reality, what we wanted to do was just ask you this question. Should we do this as a live slide for on or? Yeah. Okay. We just kind of rather than go through the full scenarios, we just wanted to put out as we invite anyone to click on their mic, which is down at the bottom and it looks kind of, it's next to the video icon and next to the little person shadow with the little green dot next to it for you. If anyone wants to take the mic and or use this as a live slide to jot in what's happening where you are and or use the chat, in that tension between care versus surveillance, which basically I propose is now a fourth set of tensions in open pedagogy that really needs to be addressed, what is happening where you are? I know that a lot of us who have worked in online for a long time, suddenly our institutions are like, hello. And we're being treated as essential workers, like for the Ralph Wiggum, when we're really trying to process a great deal that's going on. So we wanted to open this up as an opportunity. What is happening for you in terms of your work at your institution, the institution's decisions? What kind of tensions is this creating for you? Are you care and surveillance? So I've just written, because this is a really tricky area for me right now because I've just written in, we're gonna ask students to check into a forum once a week so we can see who's missing. So this is a really interesting tension between care and surveillance, right? Normally I would be very suspicious of that but under these circumstances, the only way we're gonna find out who hasn't got an internet connection is through their absence and then we can try and deal with that. So that's, you could argue that's surveillance but you could argue it's also care. These things are not completely distinct and that's why the discussion is important. So it's just an example from where I'm at at the moment. I'm seeing Gabby's story here. I remember 10 or so years ago when the OU experimented with an algorithm that sent an email to students giving them automated feedback intervals. It was explicitly labeled as AI. Many students loved it and when commented, finally I feel like a person and not a number to the OU. Yeah, I mean, this is gonna get pretty tricky, isn't it? In terms of what's a person and what's not a person and what that means in terms of care. Again, from my perspective, I find a lot of the discussion in the communities I'm in is ultimately saying care can only be a person. Now, I kind of agree with that but it's interesting to get that sort of perspective from the OU, from students to the OU. I'm just wondering, the person who had typed there's some very interesting something in the top right corner. I can't drag your text back into this. Wonderful, thank you. Much appreciate it. Institution and admin trying to do old-fashioned surveillance, report your hours. I'm really concerned about the switch of, oh. I think somebody's cleared the slide, but that's fine. No free come back. Okay, that's okay. Free comment, so go. We opened ourselves to this 100% when we made the slides fully live. So, totally fair, we are all experimenting. Don't worry, Sharon. Yeah, this is a reality that everyone is teaching in now. I'm not super panicked when people's contributions get erased, cause they will when I'm doing live slides because I've been down this road multiple times but for someone who's new to this they may feel like they're doing something wrong. When we take the rules of face-to-face facilitation and care and apply them to online spaces then sometimes faculty are going and students are gonna be judging themselves more harshly than they need to. And so how do we even set up a space where it's safe to experiment and fail for students? Are we setting up spaces where students are getting three-hour Zoom lectures because they'd be in the three-hour face-to-face lecture? Yes, I think we are. Just somebody's written so many Skype meetings with management to check we are working. I think there's a really interesting thing going on at the moment as well which I think Bon you were mentioning around this. The technology encourages this kind of control surveillance thing, doesn't it? And actually right now we're in a time where we need more trust. I've had a lot of discussion with people where it's like how can we use the technology to ensure that X, Y and Z are doing X, Y and Z. And my response has been, this is my little bit of care. Look, we need to create a culture of trust. We can't just formulate the technology to lock everything down. We have to accept that things like these live slides are open and a bit messy and that that requires trust. My concern is that as soon as things go digital some people see it as an opportunity to use the technology to kind of remove trust from the relationship. It's like we don't need to trust them because we've locked it all down. And so I think just, I'd encourage people in your institutions and your various roles to really, really highlight that concept of trust and how we need it now more than ever. More than ever. More than ever. And I noticed that Teresa had mentioned there's a culture of presenteeism which is a term I love, gone digital. And so the whole environment that we're in is changing very, very quickly. And one of the things that I had wanted to bring out even a week ago was that idea of kind of this is a prime moment for those of us who have our institutions actually paying attention to what we do, perhaps in a way that is rare or special, different from the usual, have a moment to try to advocate for structures and policies because we're in a moment of significant policy shift. Ben Williamson had written really well about this yesterday and I'll actually put that into the chat in a second. But in this moment of significant change in policy shift part of me, my initial response was wow, we have an opportunity to push for culture of care. At the same time, I think that we also need to recognize that there are fairly significant, well-funded large forces really waiting in the wings to make much bigger changes. And like John mentioned, what happens when you don't have the mic, right? I have my Dean looking to me because I'm the online ed person, but my Dean is not actually my president sitting at a particular table. So there will be decisions definitely being made that I'm not at the table for. I'm just gonna share something from Ben Williamson that says New Pandemic and EdTech Power Networks, which I think is really, really great reading that I wanna recommend if folks have the time. Ooh, I like to look at that. So there's some great things on the slide here and I feel like we're actually having a workshop to a certain extent, so that's good. Yeah, brilliant. So what we'll do is move on to just the last section. Thank you for everybody contributing to that. I'm glad that the care versus, I mean, Bong mentioned care versus surveillance in one of our discussions and it seemed to me to be, it suddenly struck me as a very, very useful sort of way of framing a discussion. So that's why we've really run with that and I think it's a useful thing. It's like a tool in my mind that I'm applying to lots of situations in my institution. Okay, so what we want to do, and I think probably best to respond in chat, and these are huge questions in some senses, but we wanted to really bring scale back in at the end here and to, I mean, for some of us, this is just like the day job, right? So it's not a future online course, but we wanted to bring scale back in and this is what we would have done as a speculative design sort of process or activity. But really, we'd like you to respond to these questions. So in chat, so if you can put the number in of the question before you write your chat response, but we're looking for those kind of really pragmatic things we want. You know, if you think you've got a good way of responding to this, get it in chat. It could be really helpful for other people in the room because we're a lot of us are dealing with this right now. So to Max and I. Yeah, we're trying to close up, right? And then you don't have to answer all the questions, but if you have any open pedagogical practices that you want to throw out for folks, if you have any things that you've removed and found that that was successful or helpful, and then how do you take care of yourself? How do you take care of your colleagues? How do we do that? We just wanted to pose those as closing conversations. What is traditional pedagogy defined as? I guess it would have to be what is traditional for you because everyone from my perspective can only speak from the actual positionality that they're in, right? So my concept may be different from yours. Get the teacher to get experience as an online student. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a great one. Yeah, remove exam. Oh, yeah, I think we're seeing a lot of that happening at the moment and actually there's a really, there's a really interesting thing happening whereby some of the messages from my institutions are, we're removing tests so that you can really get on with your learning and prepare yourself for your next year, at which point I said, so why do we have tests? So, you know. Yeah, but then on the other hand, I mean, I feel like I need to make this point. On the other hand, our students like getting grades, right? They like being ranked. We are ranking institutions. That's what we do. So, you know, these are all, we're in many situations with tensions that need to be negotiated. There's not a right answer in there, but it is interesting that the first thing that's being kind of switched off or pulled back from this assessment in quite a liberating way. Mm-hmm. And in terms of question number three, I noticed that Lorna and someone else had mentioned N precarity, which I think is really important. France makes a note that it's important to note what realizations are acceptable during crisis, but oh, we want to reinstate better practice afterwards. I do think there is, for those of us who have a voice with somebody, to point these things out, that we seem to be managing without these elements and maybe to encourage examination of them structurally. What do they serve and who do they serve? We do, you know, I teach teachers, right? So my students have that, and I always say to them right in the first class, many of us who are drawn to teaching have a little bit of Lisa Simpson in us, right? Oh, grade me, validate me. But I've been teaching a pass-fail course this past year. I had to push a little bit to get it to be made pass-fail, and no, there isn't that sort of stick involved in getting students to work, but frankly, the work has been really good. No, students are not necessarily prioritizing it above the already too many classes that they've got, but nonetheless, the work that is coming out of it, I'm really proud of. And so there's a balance there that I think we have not been encouraged to consider, and maybe there is an opportunity there. Theresa mentions does the institution really care, right? The whole wellness thing, I get my wellness emails, not a fan. Yeah, we all get an A. So I think, but also Bon, just, I mean, because it's interesting, quite a lot of the discussion here is around the idea of assessment and grading, and it's gonna be interesting to see how our students react to that, because I think they'll come at point where they'll say, well, we're paying you to credentialize us. And so I think as educators, we really like the idea of removing all this stuff, but to what extent are our students comfortable with that? And to what extent can we unpack the links between grading and credentials? I mean, you can still have credentialized pass-fail courses, potentially. I like our new Lisa Simpson saxophones. I know that we don't have any answers, but these are all answers and pause. Sorry. We've moved now from the Lisa Simpson badge to the Ralph badge, which I think I could wear with pride. I feel much more like a Ralph these days. But yeah, I wanted just to open these questions with this smart crowd of folks. We're all kind of deep in it right now. We're in one of those futures that I had initially thought back in January when we got our acceptance. I heard about coronavirus and I thought, oh, well, maybe that could be one of our futures. What if this goes this route? Well, here we are. So I'm just responding to Gabby. I think there's another really interesting tension there, which is the lots of staff concept. And yes, that makes sense. But then if you have lots of staff, you have to charge students a lot of money and then certain students become excluded. So again, it's a tension to be negotiated. But it would be, I think a lot of people in the UK remember back to when they were students and it was a completely different scale of system and it was publicly funded. I mean, we're now not publicly funded which has many negative aspects to it, but also there's an awful lot more students involved like about five time involved when I went to university. So there's a participation element to it as well. There is, and Graham brings out the formative assessment as an open pedagogical practice, which is one of the ones that my own teaching practice is built on, but when I have even a couple of hundred students a term, I do find it very difficult to do that kind of individual network formative piece. I do a lot of peer stuff with them, but yeah, all of these are real tensions. I'm cognizant of the time. It is 6 56 AM, soon the sun will be coming up in Windsor, Ontario. I just wanted to thank everybody for joining us to think out loud about this. We're gonna, I wanna take a good strong look through the chat and think about all the things that you've brought forward. And I wanna thank you and please wash your hands and take, like, good care. I am actually watching all of this happen with great fear, but I wish you all well and I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Can I just encourage everybody to bring some of these themes up at their own institutions and in their own context, because it does make a difference. I sit somewhere at the bottom of the top of my institution and it's really, really, really useful when people say, actually we need this to be trust, not technology. Actually, we need to consider how we can care for our students, not just deliver content. So, you know, I really encourage people to be a strong voice out there right now. It's very, very helpful. And it's useful for people who are in, like, management situations to hear that and sometimes it's useful because they can pick that up and they can throw it further up the chain in a very hierarchical way. Thank you very much for engaging everybody.