 Today we're going to talk about the missing child, Dior Coons. We're going to talk about his parents and the body language and behavior we see with them. Greg, why don't you tell us about the videos we're going to watch? Yeah, so Dior Coons Jr. went missing July 10th of 2015. That was a Friday. This interview with the parents was conducted on July 13th, the following Monday. Jessica Mitchell and Vernal Dior Coons Sr. are the parents. His great-grandfather and a friend, Isaac Rainewan, were at the same location. The great-grandfather was watching the child at the time that the parents say that the child disappeared. There were named suspects in 2016 and never charged. And there are a ton of people tied up in this case. We're going to disappoint somebody, guaranteed. But this video and the behavior in this video is what we're going to cover. So, take us back. Was it Friday? Yes. I'm not sure what day it is today. Today is Monday. It was Friday. Friday, about 226 was when I was... It was 236 when I called. 236 was when she called and I was in the truck hauling down to the road trying to get service because I didn't think one bar would get it. So she got very, very lucky. I was blessed that she was able to get service because I didn't want to try and risk getting halfway through my talking to the 911 and have it cut off. So I went down to where I knew I can get a little service about a half mile down the road. We searched for... After about 20 minutes and in a dead panic not knowing where he was in such a small area and not knowing never being there, I knew I was in trouble. So we decided to call, search and rescue. And that's when I drove down. She tried getting a signal out. As soon as I got a hold of them, they told me that she was on the other line with them and they had our location and they were on our way. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a really interesting one. We've looked at people whose child has been missing in the past. The McCanns come to mind immediately. And these are very different people, very different in their education level, very different in their delivery. But we also see relationship dynamics in both of these. In this case, if we watch him, he speaks first almost always as we go through this. And he has this kind of bold overtalk. Everything he says as long as he's got data for it, he's going to overtalk and over deliver information. And I think what we're seeing is a baseline in who he is. We also will notice a couple of other things. When she has something to say, even if she doesn't say it, we'll see her raise her foot and her ankle. You'll see her move it because every time she does inject, that foot comes up when she's talking. So we can then pay attention. And if I were interviewing these people, I would say, what do you have to say? Because I see that foot move. And I also watch just to see what he's doing that's different. Now they're both buried to all. I mean, she's got the child's blanket. He's got his hands together. His thumbs are up and he's moving his thumbs together. Joan of Auro says, if your hands are steepled and your fingers are together and your thumbs go up, you're showing confidence. In this case, it's more burying. This is more, he's just using that to adapt. As he says, I went about a half mile down the road, you watch her go into that inner dialogue down left. And when we say inner dialogue, what we're not talking about is remembering what to say. What we're saying is that's conversation. If it's something I've remembered, I'm probably going to go somewhere else. So we'll ask a question like, what are the lyrics to your favorite song? And as you try to do that, pay attention, your eyes are going to drift around in your head. And a lot of people, their eyes will go somewhere between their borrower to their cheekbone. But when we go down to our left, we're thinking about the impact of something, how we should respond. And she's got her hands and arms all wrapped up and she's adapting. So we're paying a lot of attention to that. Is there, is there some kind of a dialogue going on between them? When he says he went a half mile down the road and she wants to do something, she moves her foot and then you see a little bit of something happen in her face as she starts to look down left. Maybe there's something happening between them. There's a lot that goes on when a child goes missing. And then he goes into some emotional eye accessing. She does a confirming glance. I don't see anything that looks like deception here. I see something that looks like a guy spilling his guts using information just right off. This is the first thing I say. I'd ask questions around those baseline changes in her, but we don't get to hear from her. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you. This is a great opportunity. There's one video here to observe some baseline. This couple's going through something that I think they've probably said a whole bunch of times and they're telling a few known truths here. And that's what we mean when we say baseline. How does this person behave when I can prove what they're saying and known truth? So the woman here, her name's Jessica, seems to defer to him and looks to him while the question's being asked for confirmation several times despite knowing the facts more accurately than he does according to this video. And his cadence is fast, but it's not hurried. And he makes a mistake in his pronouns at the end here. If you're paying attention to our other videos and you've got training through our other videos, you might have heard that, but it's common in truthful storytelling. He says they said Search and Rescue, they were on our way. And I think he's telling and quoting someone at the same time. I think that's what we're really seeing here because it's a great observation for baseline here in this clip and we'll look for differences from this in the next few videos. Scott. I think right out of the gate, everything looks as it should. Everything sounds as it should. He's a little bit overbearing. He talks a little bit loud, but that's okay because what we're seeing are two people under a tremendous amount of stress, a tremendous amount of stress. We don't see a whole lot of movement overall. That makes a lot of sense. There's not a whole lot of illustrating, which is fine at this point. Usually at the beginning, you'll see a whole lot of it because they're in a panic. They don't know what's happened, but now they've had a couple of days to think about what's happened and sort of come to terms with it as they continue to search for the child. We see him with a lot of eye contact, a lot of heart eye contact. Then he breaks eye contact, but that's okay. He should do that. That's totally normal. He's thinking. He's looking away to think as he's thinking about stuff. He looks away and that's fine. There'll be a lot of questions about what you're seeing here and don't take the things you've read in magazines and seen from experts who aren't giving out valid information because you'll get the wrong information on that. If you've gathered that up over the years, so really be careful. You have to keep an open mind with this. He's using his head as an illustrator and that's fine. It's normal for some people that that's all you see is that head illustrator when they talk. When we say illustrators, like I'm always talking about, that's when your brain is focusing on a specific word or phrase. It does that like I did just then. Sometimes it's with their hands, sometimes with their hands, sometimes with their eyebrows. We see some adapting with his thumbs. So almost we call it twiddling his thumbs a little. I think that's because he's not bored, but he's got all this information. He wants to get it out. He looks like he wants things to move forward with everything that he's doing. He's showing things. He wants things to go forward and he has a lot of information that he wants to get out. So does she. His vocal tone is strong. His cadence is really fast. His cadence is how many words you speak in a sentence and how fast those come out. We refer to that as cadence and he sounds clear and clean. He's one of those guys that talks real loud. So he's got a lot to say and he does and that's fine because he's trying to get out all the information he possibly can to the TV to whoever's watching so they can maybe help them. I don't know how they can if they're across the country or whatever, but that's what usually happens. That's the road to go down. The mother looks the way she should. She looks tired. She looks a little bit haggard. She's sleepy. Her arms are crossed and in this situation that means nothing. A lot of times you hear people say there's arms across so they run into what I was saying or they're turned off to the situation. They're burying or blocking. It is kind of a barrier because she's kind of trying to soothe herself. She's pacifying herself. She's holding herself doing that. It's sort of a self-protective thing at that point. I'm under the impression she's not hiding anything. It's okay to do that. It's okay to be doing those kind of things. So far, like I said before, everything looks as it should up to this point. Mark, what do you got? Let me point out some things that if you were trying to look for things not looking as they should, here's what you might go for. You might go for the fact that the male is locked down there. You might miss that there's self-soothing going on. Now, is that self-soothing because he's stressed because he's being deceptive or stressed because of he's lost his child? Is there enough stress for you thinking about it? You think, wow, they've just lost their child? Well, three days ago, a lot happens in three days. A lot of adrenaline gets released that you can't get back again. But you might go, but he seems a bit locked down. She seems buried just as everybody's been saying. And maybe you might go, well, she seems to be hiding behind that blanket. Or you could say she's being comforted by that blanket, which we'll find out later on has a very deep significance. Okay, so why is his focus on these getting the right amount of bars? Why the focus on completing the call to police rather than doing the best you can in the moment? I think if you were looking for something to go, hang on, something going on here, you might go, why doesn't he just want to get on the phone and just get some kind of message through rather than complete the whole message? You could pick on that. He says, I was in trouble. You might go, well, why are you in trouble? You're not in trouble unless you've done something wrong. So you could jump on that. You could jump on that he doesn't mention the name of the kid. At this point, we have she, we have they, we have he, we have other entities named. We also have the entity of, we were blessed. So another entity from outside blessed us with some kind of good. And we often, you know, we'll say when somebody starts bringing in higher entities, that that can be an issue. So look, I just want to highlight what you could very easily jump on to go. I think there's something up there. I think at this point, though, the positives on their side outweigh any of those negatives at this point, and you might be already jumping to the wrong conclusion. But we're only one video in who knows who knows what we'll see coming up. So take us back. Was it Friday? I'm not sure what day it is today. Today's Monday. It was Friday. Friday about 226 is when I was at 226. It was 236 when I called. 236 is when she called. And I was in the truck hauling down to the road trying to get service because I didn't think one bar would get it. So she got very, very lucky. I was blessed that she was able to get service because I didn't I didn't want to try and risk getting halfway through my talking to the 911 and have it cut off. So I went down to where I knew I can get a little service about a half mile down the road. We searched for after about 20 minutes and in a dead panic, not knowing where he was in such a small area and not knowing never being there. I knew I was in trouble. So we decided to call search and rescue. And that's when I drove down. She tried getting a signal out. As soon as I got a hold of them, they told me that she was on the other line with them and they had our location and they were on our way. They were amazing. They are amazing and they still continue to be. Lima High County Sheriff and Sam in search and rescue, you could not ask for a better group of people volunteers and search and rescue and just everybody. You couldn't ask for better people so sincere so concerned and they were everybody was so emotionally attached to this as you anybody would be of a two year old. He's pretty small for his age, but he moves pretty good. And that was our concern. He was right with us. Where it's at is, I mean, I thought it would be perfect to go camping there because it's enclosed by walls of mountains and there's not much space around there that he could go. And our biggest concern was the the creek, which was knee deep few feet wide, but he's a little guy. They finally yesterday that we were able to put that to rest and Lima High County Sheriff, Sheriff Dave and the rest of the sheriffs have put out that there is they assured me there is 100% chance that he is not anywhere in that water around that water. They have torn that creek upside down and now divers have gone through wet suits along with the helicopter. That was the world's most advanced search and rescue helicopter volunteered out of Montana. And those guys were just amazing. The accuracy they had with the night vision ability it has and the heat range they can see they were the one guy I can't remember his name. I've met so many people, so many good people, but he was his own safety. He was he was more or less he was strapped in and he was on the side of that helicopter looking and I he was looking down. I remember them telling me that they asked the search rescues to go look over because there was an orange insect repellent can they think by the bank and they were dead on that's what it was. That's how accurate these guys are. They thought it was it might have been like a part of a show or something or something, but they said go check that out. All right Chase, what do you got? Yeah, we'll start with this baseline. His cadence continues in a quick but not hurried tone here. The pacifying gestures are still continuing with his hands in his lap here and there's word repetition and there's no use of the name again. A couple of things that we often identify as red flags when they're accompanied by a mountain of other things. Jessica continues to exhibit these behaviors that indicate discomfort. This constant adjustment of the jacket or sorry the blanket in her lap, the movement of her foot and the confirmation glances around the whole room and some people might think this is a cluster. I think about it in terms of generalized versus focal points of stress or discomfort. Is it generalized? Is it focal? But what we're seeing here is generalized discomfort. They aren't focal on a singular issue and this might be the presence of tons of cameras that she's never maybe been on sitting in this in the back into a corner of a conference room before. Maybe a combination of that and the grief that they're maybe still going through here if they are innocent. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So, Mayo starts illustrating more now and opening up. I think that's in his favor. A lot of focus there on the insect repellent can, you know, some details there. Okay, why does he want to go for these details? World's most advanced, accomplished, so many good people. So, why is he bringing us to how good everybody else is and raising that status of everybody else? Is it that he's trying to divert us our attention or is it that he's genuinely placating and thanking people because he wants them to do even more work? You know, how much does he want people to be involved in stuff or how much does he want us to go, okay, look at this, all these people over here and look at the detail that they picked up on. So, I want you to weigh those up in your mind. There's the female there, very definitely comforting with that, with that blanket that almost looks at the moment like she's holding a child. So, is it that she's mimicking the holding of a child there or is it that she's using that as a barrier so we can't see some of the anxious behaviors that could be going on? Because, you know, it all depends on what mindset we've joined this at. If we've got a mindset that says, hey, the parents are most likely guilty, which would be accurate. I mean, statistically, you're already on the right lines, but you've got to work out how much is that going to distort, to a certain extent, what you view these behaviors as. So, always check yourself and your bias before you enter into this. She checks the mail during the interview. Is that threat checking? I mean, depends on your bias or is it checking he's got it right? You know, is she not joining in? Is she not joining in because she sees him as a threat or not joining in because he's doing a great job and he wants him to continue? Again, it might depend on your bias as to which way you go on that. Look at her red face. Look at her red face. Is that the red face of sunburn because she's been out so much looking? Is that the red face of extreme stress? She's broken out in hives across her face because she's so stressed out about her son being missing or is it the red face of somebody who is guilty and has broken out? Well, it kind of all depends on your bias around him. My bias personally at the moment from all that I'm seeing is already leaning towards this is the usual behavior that we should see from somebody who, a couple who are looking after their kid and are worried about them and they're not involved in anything nefarious. But I'm open. My mind could be changed on this. Greg, what do you got? Mark, I think when we talk about bias, let's talk about one of the most famous cases of a missing child in history, Lindy Chamberlain, who had her child taken by Dingo's and nobody believed her because her affect was off and lots of folks at the time said something's wrong with her and she was there. Let's talk about baselining a person because you can't look at Lindy Chamberlain. You can't look at these people like you look at me or like you look at Chase. We have to pay attention to the person and what they're doing. People make themselves comfortable with data. If you've ever watched Dan Ackroyd, who I think is just phenomenal as a comedian in roles, he does this guy over and over and over in many cases that forceful voice with lots of information and too much when he's telling you. He does that all the time. This guy is almost a caricature because he leans on data. The more data he gives you, the more believed he is. It doesn't mean he's hiding something necessarily. But as we listen, any time we hear him using data, he'll feel comfortable. He'll not adapt. He'll not do a lot of those things. He'll not stammer or stutter. What we will see is change when he runs out of data. So it's interesting to watch that. It's also interesting to watch the human dynamic. Remember that humans put information in their head in certain ways. Some of us are really detailed. Some of us are more broad. I say people remember events in terms of time event or sequence. Time meaning details about when something happens. Events, big chunks. What did you do yesterday? And then sequence is just walk through the process. Chase and I might be more driven by clock because of our military background than most folks, but other folks will have a lot more detail than we will in some cases. As the dynamic of these people, he may always speak first and always speak over her. And then she waits for her chance to interject. That would be my guess watching the way this thing goes because we see that ankle. First of all, we see her react when the male says small for his age. She does a distaste move, but then she pretty quickly moves back to nodding in confirmation when he said, but he's pretty quick mover. Her ankle comes up again when he said, I thought it would be safe with mountains on all sides. That makes me wonder, was there a discussion about that when the kid disappeared? Because stressful things occur. They use the current tense, present tense when they say he is a little guy. The same movement from her comes again when they're talking about the helicopter. And she does some mouth grooming there. And I wonder what does she want to say? Hey, get to the point or something. But this guy's chaffing. We always say chaff and redirect. There's no redirect. If he was trying to hide something, he has every opportunity because they let him chaff and chaff and chaff and he doesn't. Again, I agree with you, Mark, when he starts talking about the helicopters, hands come up. Every time we see her speak, we're going to notice that foot starting to move. So it's a good baseline force to run from. Scott, what do you got? I agree with that. I think it's because she's a little bit nervous as well to add to that. It's because of the situation she's in, her arms are all crossing, her foot's doing that because like I think it was Jay saying earlier, this is new for her. She's in a room in an interview and it's about her child who's missing. And we got to keep in mind there's a lot of stress going on here. This isn't a normal conversation that they're having with someone about anything. It's about their missing child. So that's why it's so different. So keep that in mind as we go through this because I agree with you, Mark. This is starting to, it's leaning toward, they look like they didn't do it at this point. And like you said, Chase, the father is about the same. He has it for the most part. His cadence hasn't changed. His diction is still great. His voice volume is still the same. You can understand everything he's saying. They're going to be those people who say the mother looks suspicious like we've all been saying. And that's because she keeps, as she's looking, she looks at the interview and she'll look back at him, she'll look at the interview and look at her husband back and forth. Almost like she's nervous looking, but she is nervously looking back and forth. She knows the information he's given. She's heard this before. I'm sure this isn't the first interview they've done, but as they've been talking to the police, they've been going through different versions of, they're trying to find out they're telling different versions of the story. And I don't believe they have been. Nothing in this thing changes as we go through this. Notice that the story stays the same. There are no changes, no glitches, nothing like that. And the mother is listening because she went to the father because she wants to make sure his information is correct, I believe. And he's saying the same things he's been saying, but she's just making sure that their story doesn't change, that everything is as it should be because she wants as much of the real information to get out as she possibly can because they're trying to find her kid. She's quiet, but when she does speak, she's strong and clear as well. Like I said before, he sounds a little overbearing because he's so loud and he's so on. He's telling exactly what he thinks. And his illustrators don't get huge, like you guys were saying, until he starts talking about the helicopter. And that's fine too, because I believe he's confident with what he's saying. He probably doesn't use a lot of illustrators. Everything seems positive. There's nothing deceptive so far to me. I don't see anything like that. I think he feels a little bit of guilt when he says, I thought it would be perfect when he's talking about the camp and spot. And then because of the way he doesn't shut down, but things change a little bit there. But I think he feels a little bit of guilt because of that. And again, it's really important to keep in mind, you may have heard hundreds of bits of information about, oh, when you do this, it means a lie every time. Or when they do this, it means that. It sounds like we do that, but we don't. Those are absolutes. Every time someone scratches their nose, they're not telling the truth. Every time someone lifts one shoulder, they're not telling the truth. We'll tell you four, five, nine different things that are going on when someone does a short one-shoulder shrug. So keep in mind, there's so much more going on from this perspective, from our perspective, that we're saying that the normal armchair body language expert won't be seeing because that person may not be aware of all these other things these things could mean up to this point. All right, we good? Yeah. All right. Okay, Chase. All right. Thank you. Thanks, Joe. They were amazing. They are amazing and they still continue to be. Lima High County Sheriff and Sam in search and rescue, you could not ask for a better group of people, volunteers in search and rescue and just everybody. You couldn't ask for better people. So sincere, so concerned and they were, everybody was so emotionally attached to this as anybody would be of a two-year-old. He's pretty small for his age, but he moves pretty good and that was our concern. He was right with us. Where it's at is, I mean, I thought it would be perfect to go camping there because it's enclosed by walls of mountains and there's not much space around there that he could go. And our biggest concern was the Crick, which was knee-deep, few feet wide, but he's a little guy. They finally yesterday, we were able to put that to rest and Lima High County Sheriff Dave and the rest of the sheriffs have put out that they assured me there is 100% chance that he is not anywhere in that water, around that water. They have torn that Crick upside down and in and out. Divers have gone through wetsuits along with the helicopter. That was the world's most advanced search and rescue helicopter volunteered out of Montana and those guys were just amazing. The accuracy they had with the night vision ability it has and the heat range they can see. They were, the one guy, I can't remember his name. I've met so many people, so many good people, but he was, his own safety, he was more or less, he was strapped in and he was on the side of that helicopter looking and I, he was looking down. I remember them telling me that they asked the search and rescue to go look over because there was an orange insect repellent can they think by the bank and they were dead on. That's what it was. That's how accurate these guys are. They thought it was, it might have been like a part of a shoe or something, but they said go check that out. The hearsay of things has kind of gotten way out of hand. The search is so far has been put on that has been suspended and that is not entirely sure or true. Sheriff Dave of Lima High County, I just spoke with him on the phone this morning. He has got horseback riders and trackers up there right now and very, very advanced professional. I'll be going up with and I've just come down to get any resource I can get to go back right up, back up today. What questions did you guys have? Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'll be short on this one for sure. His hands are open. He's illustrating as he talks about the search of that. They all make eye contact with somebody who comes in the room. So there's a lot of disturbance going on around here. If you pay attention to him now, he's telling, telling, telling, but he's also not spewing data. I think his comfort is when he has enough data to be able to sound credible. And when he doesn't, then he starts to stammer a little bit. This is not about, he's just telling you what he thinks. So you hear a change in cadence. I don't think that means anything. And you hear him change tone at the end. What questions do you have? All this stuff looks like congruent messaging to me. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I would agree. Look, he's squeezing the melon on that one, because he really wants to control the hearsay on it. And he's been asked to do that. Tell us about the hearsay. Okay, let me control this now. So that is very, very congruent, I would say. There's, there's a sense of the, of the loss of energy in that at the end, he's dejected by the end of that, but we don't hear his hands collapse onto his knees and make any kind of noise. If I heard a noise at the end of that, I might go, hang on, why, why so dejected that you made that noise at the end? Why that loss at the end? But it seems congruent for me, like he's doing his best to, to, to control this thing. At the same time, he's got a missing child. What questions do you guys have? Now, often we might say, I see searching, searching for information now wants to know what, what they have. But again, that would already be in a cluster of all kinds of other behaviors that we're seeing that's leading us down this road to go, hang on, there's chaff and redirect going on. There's loss of fluency around these things. And now you're searching for what the interrogator might have. No, he just gave that loss gesture. He's like, get, you know, get me to do some more, whatever I need to do, I'm going to do to, to, to try and fill the gap, just give me a cue to fill the gap. And still the female comp literally using that blanket as a comforter now as a symbol of the child, I would say, behaviors that I think are all of this behaviors that I would expect to see from people who are, who are looking for their child. But again, I'm always open chase. What do you got on this one? One thing we are starting to see here is a continuous push to instill hope in people who are watching this show. It's not about their story. So, and so far, we're not seeing a lot of hallmarks of what I would expect to see in a guilty party. And keep in mind that if someone uses a checklist to really determine with certainty that someone is guilty, they're an idiot. But checklist still can be very helpful to tell you where to direct attention. So here's really quickly, the five points that I look for when I'm observing a video remotely similar to this, what their concern, stress, information, emotion and outlook, those five things, where's their concern, stress, information, emotion, outlook. So are they concerned with their story or locating the missing person? All right, is the stress around their story or the missing person? Is the information vague or specific? Is the information, emotion, shame or guilt, or sadness and desperation? Because those are very different and they look very different. And finally, the outlook, are they introducing complexity or encouraging assistance? And we're seeing them pretty good, about five for five here on all these points. Scott? All right, this is the most movement we've seen from him so far. And when he's looking at the interviewer, he's making sure he's being believed, you know, and making sure that by that, I mean, not making sure he's being believed, but he's making sure that his information is coming across clear, that the guy gets and understands what he's talking about. And he's just relaying the information he's aware of. His hands go up and they hold that position. And this lets us know that that information is so important to me, so focused on that he forgets his hand is staying there. It's sort of like sticks there in the air. And that's not uncommon. That'll happen when someone's telling you something really important. They'll leave that hand up as they keep as they'll they're telling you something else they may not illustrate, but they'll be telling you something else as that's happening because they're so focused on what they're talking about, making sure you get the correct information or making sure they see what's happening or depending on what they're watching. So I think that's that's important to keep in mind there. He's so focused on what he's doing, what he's talking about. He's really not aware of what the rest of his body's doing in a big way. Like we were talking about, some people see there at the end where he said, what questions did you have? They're going to see that as a red flag because he stumbles. Try to stay unbiased during this because what we usually see are our two parents and they know what's at least one of them knows what's happened to the child. And they know that child isn't coming back. And we see behavior that's completely different than this. We don't see them hanging onto each other. We don't see them those hard checks looking at each other while they're talking and connecting like that and making sure everything is the same or making sure that that spouse believes them as well as this other person since the spouse may not know what's happened to him yet. So it's real important to keep that in mind as we go. Y'all have covered everything else so I've really got nothing else put in. All right, be good. The hearsay of things has kind of gotten way out of hand. The search is so far has been put on that has been suspended and that is not entirely sure or true. Sheriff Dave of Lima High County, I just spoke with him on the phone this morning. He has got horseback riders and trackers out there right now and very very advanced professionals. I'll be going up with and I've just come down to get any resource I can get to go back right up back up today. What questions do you guys have? Tell us a little bit about first how are you guys holding up? I know everybody's a lot of people are praying for you. They're concerned. Friends and family and hoping to be strong for me. The support around us is what's I know keeping me together because if we didn't have all of our family the minute I called my mom and she was up there in a matter of hours and staying with the rest of our family they were just up there around us. Now luckily we a few phone calls is all it took at first and we had just as Sheriff Davis said in the news there's 175 plus people up there in the grid searches volunteers professionals and anybody I called there's the service up there is very here sit here there it's camping you know we're trying to hold up the best we can but with we have hope is the thing hope is what keeps it going hope is because the search is not over search is not done we will find him no matter what. All right Chase what do you got? This is the guy like you had a party and you just mentioned Home Depot one time and like 45 minutes later he's like and then in November you go in there and they've got a 20 off coupons you can get the same saw and the same lumber and really get that thing built out the exact way that you want it to go. You can take that out you can totally edit that out. No yeah I'll take it totally true. All right so there's a few things unfolding here I think that are very important to understanding the behavior here so keep in mind we're not the forensics panel and we're not experts on this case if you've been studying this case a while educate us down in the comments and let us know what you think but the some key points here there's no need in them to display emotional reactions and sadness for the cameras they're not doing that we're not seeing that the only behavior that's on display here is his level of personal organization which I think is just his personality I do not think he's an organized person and I do think that's a display. Jessica has no need to make these claims about how stressed or sad they are they called their family and police immediately and openly discuss it and talk about it which is another green flag if we can say that finally Jessica's mouth stays open after she speaks and after her statements this is one of the small but very reliable things that I look for when I'm watching anything like this and this is an indicator the statements are genuine to me one caveat while the the statements I'm seeing here I think are genuine keep in mind that no hard or direct questions about guilt or involvement have been asked yet so with that said in most cases of guilty parties you'll see them redirect the situation to their story no matter what the interviewer says so even with these questions you're still more likely to see them redirect it to their suffering their innocence and how they did everything right and we're not seeing it Scott I agree with you and who's the girl who the woman who murdered that the child left him in a hotel room in a bag that's the Teresa Balboa Teresa that's the perfect example of what you're talking about chase let's go back and watch watch that episode that we did because that what you're talking about there that's exactly what happened there all right now he seems like he's taking over the conversation for his wife and he seems like he's talking over and stuff he is that's the kind of guy he is that's who he is in that relationship he's the talker he's the one she she may not be shy but she sure seems shy here and he's the one that talks all the time because he's really loud and he's really the guy that takes charge of stuff in that relationship so that's totally fine but again when she talks she she makes her her point and she talks loud and she is strong and she makes valid points so that's probably why they get along he's a little bit louder than she is but they get along they seem like a the perfect couple for that for that yin and yang or yin yin how do you say it so there's been no change in the story no odd behavior no strange wording of the situation itself everything is flowing the way it should he's what we call a loping where you're just kind of on a horse where you're kind of loping along and just telling the story and the facts are coming out and he's going there's no hardcore stopping thinking talking moving things around making sure your story is correct we're not seeing any of that we're just seeing him loping along both of them just talking and telling what they think and tell what they they think the situation looks like and wondering how they can help again some people go look at that mother and think something's wrong but i'm not seeing just any deception on her whatsoever nothing at all everything looks to me the way it should at this point all right um is that all of us no no mark yeah both of us you're going to okay sorry sorry but i'm like last i was like you're going last it's like dang what really quick at the time of filming this was they were engaged they never did get married right they just live together yeah you can still call them a couple yeah yeah oh well all right mark where do you got yeah so look to this point of you know they look like they're together i i don't know what their relationship is now but you may have information and you might go oh but they're not together so that is any couple after the loss of a child that stay together is an absolute miracle it's an anomaly of the statistics losing a child as a as a general a good generalization that i will win at the casino every time will break up most every couple most every couple so um they are well he is for sure super positive about this we will find him no matter what then there's just some slight bitterness in the mouth there and you might go oh the bitterness okay there's there's some deception going on no it's the no matter what pay attention to that we will find him no matter what there is some doubt in there or worry in there as to the condition of of the child if the child is to be found so positive at the same time some deep worry there super positive the female there about the family you know we called him up and they were here he's been very positive about the amount of people there if you've committed a crime the last thing you want is a lot of people because just the child that that amount of processing power the chance is that somebody will find something on our earth an earth something that puts you in the frame just go higher and you know that the last thing you want is family around because family know each other really really well and family are going to go hang on though that's not right hang on i know you too well so the last thing you want is family and lots of people your chances of getting caught go up they're inviting family they're inviting we had one perpetrator i can't remember the guy's name but he was like no no no don't yeah there's no point in coming here you won't be able to find anything it's so difficult in this area i told the family not to show up just no point no point yeah exactly so um um so it's it's it's looking like people who want other people around that's not usual for people who've committed a crime and and a great deal of positivity even though there's that bitterness at the end greg what do you got on this one yeah a handful of things and it's all behavior very little body language a couple of things mark you just pointed out this guy is inviting lots of scrutiny we also chase you pointed out early he is a detail detail detail detail oriented and so when we think about guilty people versus innocent people i call it steering versus clearing if i'm trying to find my kid i want all the help in the world to find my kid that's steering if i want you not to think it was me that's clearing a guy with this level of detail is going to give you a hell of a lot of reasons why it's not him when he goes to clear and this guy's not doing it he's using all of his details to tell you about how people are looking and what's going on he doesn't redirect he's online every time so it's a good stay on point stay on story deliver what you're after that's number one the other thing that's interesting to me is he walks down the path where he immediately blasts out quicker than her i you know we call it overbearing there's no eye contact with her whatsoever he just starts talking but it's possible entirely possible that's intentional to keep her from being lambasted with questions that don't know we don't know enough about the relationship i would assume that he's you know the one who's a talker as you say scott but it's also possible that he is trying to protect her and the reason i say that is because once he starts to broadcast what he thinks and she joins in he stops and makes hard eye contact and watches her and supports her response with shaking head no adapting and then gives more details about the search so i think if we were looking at this guy and he were trying to get out of it he would not let her talk at all and he would try to drive as many points in his favor as he possibly could and we would see more steering not and more clearing and not steering so i think looks trustworthy to me at this point the island is you tell us a little bit about first off how are you guys holding up i know everybody's a lot of people are praying for you they're concerned friends and family and the support around us is what i know keeping me together because if we didn't have all of our family the minute i called my mom and she was up there in a matter of hours and same with the rest of our family they were just up there those around us now luckily we had a few phone calls is all it took at first and we had just as sheriff davis said in the news there's 175 plus people up there in the grid searches volunteers professionals and anybody i called there's the service up there is very here sit here there it's camping you know um we're we're trying to hold up the best we can but with we have hope is the thing hope is what keeps it going hope is because the search is not over search is not done we will find him no matter what very very unusual sir and we didn't hear people around us we didn't see anybody we have yeah i know social media can be a good thing but it can also that's that's one of the balls we're going against yet we don't want to twist it so clear up any rumors that you've seen or heard or we've we need to talk about one thing that we want to get to that the most of the biggest rumors that are going around is i mean i have heard everything from the i mean why you would make a rumor that has to do with a three-year-old is if you're not going to help please don't if it's not helpful yeah it's just this is a this is a two almost three-year-old we're talking about please help us but i've heard everything from um i'm i am a truck driver um i've heard everything from my company won't let me come home off the road to look for my son i was there the entire time and my employer four hours after my son went missing has been up there day and night has not slowed down i've and that that one bought that one bothered me and then they just came they got worse and they got worse and they got worse but they're that's a handful of bad with a bunch of good the amount of support is very overwhelming and it's good all right mark what do you got yeah i just really won or maybe two things here the emphatic way he says please help us that is not something i expect from somebody who's the perpetrator of a of a crime uh he again he he grabs that melon again uh he's really trying to control all this spurious thought that's going on when it isn't helpful and how clearly he says please help us and also just one last thing on this how supportive he is of the supporters again that's not something i would expect from somebody who's a perpetrator of of the crime they want to find some way to undercut the supporters and get them sent away sent home don't bother don't put your energy here put your energy somewhere else he's there going look my my my boss my employer has been brilliant you know not only has he made sure as they showed that i've got time to to look after my to go find my kid he's there he's with me right now he's come down as well he's he's in there on it i mean amazing um and not something i would expect to see from somebody who's involved in some criminality uh scott what do you got on this one all right when a child goes missing though one of the first things that the armchair detective at home is going to think it is goats goes to is the parents did it because that's mainly what you see on youtube you see these videos again i'll say it where there's that where we even we do it where we know the the the people did it and it's obvious that's the most popular thing to talk about is what everybody wants to talk about the look at these people who did this horrible thing that's what one of the reasons a lot of people are going to go to the guilt side on this i think we need again i keep saying we need to be careful with this because we're not seeing any of the same cues and and and signs that let us know that indicators suggest that these people have done anything we're not seeing like chase was saying earlier we're not seeing that that sadness can that fake sadness come up and oh look at me it's harbom and bringing things back to themselves like and i've just been doing not a whole lot of eye going on and they were to talks about they're not talking about the pain they're feeling or that kind of thing but most often when when we see people who who are aware of what's happened to their child they talk you sure focus on that a lot going back to that one we talked about earlier and and pretty much all the the missing children we've seen so far when they're when they when they're guilty for that that's quite often what we see so we don't see any of that here no look at me oh poor me i'm having such a hard time so you'll be empathetic with them and feel for them we're not seeing any of that this guy doesn't care about that could not possibly care less he's like i gotta find my son we're gonna help find we gotta help find him here we can help us please come and help us they don't look like drug users to me they don't he doesn't seem like that he seemed sharp boom right on the money very he's got a lot of life in him and he's he's his volume is good he's not uh still he's not wavering from anything he's still open along saying exactly what he thinks they're not holding on to each other not being real quiet and looking sad at each other none of that this does not look like anyway parents who know what's happened to that child it looks like parents who are concerned about what's happened to that child we talk about the body language and talk about what we're seeing all that and it's all going to go back to most of it it's going to go back to it doesn't look like anything's wrong here it doesn't to me anyway i'm not seeing anything deceptive so far i just think they're concerned and they're trying to find their son Greg what do you got yeah we always say there's no such thing there's no such thing as deceptive body language only indicators of stress and so it's really easy to make a mistake and see some stress from a person who's gone through absolute hell for three days and assume that that lack of emotion that you expect that overly dramatized emotion that you might expect parts of the country are different everything else i think that if you've never been through a lot of loss then you probably don't have anything in your head to put that to that kind of adrenaline that kind of that kind of emotional wreck and i know a lot of people will say well the kid's not dead it's not the same as a kid you don't know that you're terrified and this is a child this is a little bitty child this is probably one of the hardest things most people do and when they say well how could they possibly lose them do you know how many children get lost in department stores every year the number is astronomical so children masterful at disappearing so i don't jump to conclusions with folks like that he's blasting facts he's doing exactly what he does he's clearing up this and that he's saying this is a rumor that's a rumor he also has a point a lot of negative fingers at anyone he does here and he doesn't really say this person did that or this person did that he said why would anybody want to start anything about a three-year-old child just come help us to your point mark he's asking for more resources on the ground more people to come and scrutinize him that's not usually what we see we usually see i left garbage in my trunk so reason the trunk smell bad well that's the kind of thing that makes you go okay they're looking for excuses for why things happened not the other way she wanted to talk but she holds it back and you see her do a little mouth groom at one point and then when she's actually asked directly she doesn't intake breath before she gets ready to say what she's thinking and goes to that internal voice again when we say internal voice we're talking about i'm thinking about what should i say how should i say it not i'm thinking about what did i hear yesterday now we give you two examples that i want you to think about one more time i'm going to do this i want you to think about your favorite song and just think of 10 or 12 words watch what your eyes do it's going to be somewhere in your head some of us may go to emotion because it's meaningful and powerful most of us are going to go somewhere between our brow ridge and our cheekbone as we're processing sound on one side of our head or the other then when i want you to think about what would you do if you were in this situation if you were these parents who are trying to tell you that they didn't have anything to do with their child missing and nobody believes them think about that for a couple of minutes you'll go to emotion your eyes are going to drift down to your right but you'll have to go to some internal conversation to think about how you would behave and you'll see this in your own head you carry the pattern for it i don't see anything deceptive i see people who are saying come on help us come on get more resource get out there we're going to go right back come and help us that's what i got chase what you got so jessica is continuing to defer to him with these glances many times in this clip which is well in her baseline and when she's interrupted here by him you'll see her bite her lip here and this is common when somebody's interrupted often it's common a response to another person when they're often interrupted by that person i'm imagining this happens all the time off camera nothing he's a bad guy that's just probably who he is that's how he communicates his hand to chest gesture as he's talking about being a truck driver is indicative of sincerity and he keeps it there while talking about how much his employer did for him and the hand kind of sticks up there just like the behavior scott was talking about in the previous video how the hand kind of sticks there this helps us to identify that the brain is not regulating nonverbal communication he's not managing appearances because the hand gets stuck he's not concerned about what it looks like this is a good indicator when you see stuck body language because someone's so concerned about what they're saying and getting a point across usually a very good sign it's all i got was the best didn't get any better than that i don't win that i can't win anything i give it to very very unusual sir and we didn't hear people around us we didn't see anybody we have that needs to be addressed yeah i know social media can be a good thing but it can also that's one of the balls we're going against yet we don't want to twist it so clear up any rumors that you've seen or heard we've we need to talk about one thing that we want to get to that the most of the biggest rumors that are going around is i mean i have heard everything from the i mean why you would make a rumor that has to do with a three-year-old is if you're not going to help please don't if it's not helpful yeah this is a this is a two almost three-year-old we're talking about please help us but i've heard everything from i'm true i am a truck driver i've heard everything from my company won't let me come home off the road to look for my son i was there the entire time and my employer four hours after my son went missing has been up there day and night has not slowed down and that that one bought that one bothered me and then they just came they got worse and they got worse and they got worse but there that's a handful of bad with a bunch of good the amount of support is very overwhelming and it's good are there any rumors that you've seen anything you want to clear up jessica i just somebody's at the store um led or said it was one of the ladies that had worked at the store said that they saw um a gentleman and a younger blonde boy matching our description of our son really filthy buying candy for him and he was just bawling in a black truck that is the only here's the problem other my pickup truck black truck as a family we went down to get get a few things earlier it was earlier that day but they claim it was at six o'clock that that evening and i had we with sort of search and rescue until what a quarter to four yeah from we didn't ever know we know we haven't left the camp since one o'clock that afternoon so it's just a lot of hearsay and was anybody camping around you that we don't know is i come to find i didn't know the area and i didn't know i there's it's very open but you can't see much there's a road that goes up and along the top but we're camp underneath the reservoir basically right below it and you can go up above the reservoir and i didn't even know the road was did the i didn't know the road was up there and as i traveled up there myself i come to find out i can see everything going on in that campsite but you can't see out you can't see up you can't see around and if anybody comes to the bottom of your campground you can't even see they are so they could have come to you they could have came in and you couldn't never know it and with the water was not very it was not a fast-running it's a crick but it is quite loud moving through the blogs and things like that so hearing range is not all that far either so if you couldn't hear anybody coming up either so all right greg what do you got yeah chase i love the fact you had the stranded body language because it's left there and if you don't know that if you don't know it's left over and you just came in here you seem starting to adapt you're probably going to go okay he's lying he's adapting he's protecting his heart people will give you all kinds of things if you go look at the armshare detective scott to your point some of these body language guys are going to go that's the ultimate in protection he's got his hand over his heart and he's massaging himself well no i think it's one of those things his hand is abandoned and he's like uh so he starts to adapt that's not if a guy is trying to hide something that's probably not the way he's going to do it hand to groin maybe but not the other way so it would get your attention there's her ankle movement when she's divulging information herself proving that what we said all along is when she's delivering information or wants to her her foot bounces so i would pay attention to that in interrogation i'd ask her question and i would go after it and then you say here here's where we get to a person when they're talking about hearsay and you start to see him get really uncomfortable he has a short swallow that is holding back emotion if you watch it's kind of a throat quiver you'll see that sometimes in people before their chin boss the chase always talks about engages you'll see that throat quiver and you'll see it here but the questioner doesn't let him keep talking you see a little short kind of things there but the questioner interrupts him and doesn't let him keep talking or we might have gotten emotion out of him and i i don't know that we can tell you enough times that baseline is important and what a person does is deviation from that is what matters but that's everything we're seeing here we're starting to see a thing that changes you see her eyes expand she reaches for her neck as she is he's talking about you being able to see down into the into the place but not out and the sound that makes me starting to think okay is there's something happening between them between the two of the mark to your point losing a child is the most powerful thing that can happen to you in your life and it causes all kinds of fractures because of blaming whether it's external or internal whether people are saying what they're thinking or not so seeing that as she talks about him talking about he didn't realize that you could get in from the top and you could see down in there and you couldn't hear who was coming i think i start to say let's pay really close attention to the dynamic between them as the years unfold uh scott what do you got all right his hand is in that odd position it was where it was earlier and it stayed there because he doesn't realize it's there it's almost frozen at that point again because he's so focused on what's going on up here and trying to get that information out in the right way that's what that's where that's where his heads that's focused on that it sort of doesn't let anything go her fits in that slow span because she's getting that she's getting her that built up stress and energy and he explains as he's explained the situation with the truck and the surrounding of the campsite and all that his eyes aren't checking that interviewer to make sure he's being believed he's making sure that he understands what he's saying that he's getting the information because if this guy doesn't get it the people watching won't get it either so i think he's he's really focused on that uh she's almost zombie like or that stare she's got going on because i'm sure she's as he's talking she's thinking some other things as well and trying to stay calm because of the situation so i i i think that's what that is some people say she's she looks like a zombie i think she kind of does because she's probably been up for a long time and she's been worried and she's really really stressed so i think that's what's happening her head movements are smooth and they're fluid her vocal tone is still strong and her cadence is medium but it's not too fast again we're not seeing that that sadness for each other in the crime we've seen seen some of our videos because i think we're we're not seeing any anything fake here up to now all right chase what do you got yeah this i don't have a hold on for this one but we're seeing a lot more of the same here and his admissions here that you're hearing are not uh some people might make this mistake he's not deliberately introducing ambiguity in this instead what i think we're seeing here is explanation of ambiguity he's not in inducing it he's explaining ambiguity and i think that's a huge uh differentiation point that that needs to be made for this just not just for the video but for your education that's one of the reasons you subscribe to our channel is to learn this stuff so explaining ambiguity is different than injecting it into the story mark yeah totally agree so first thing i absolutely agree with is is the stuck hand there it would be easy for somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about to see that as a barrier gesture miss the self soothe which is very very small in there that happens after a while as well so absolutely it's not a barrier gesture it's a freeze it's locked in there um also um just great descriptors descriptor gestures of the geography the topography of the location and also to uh elucidate to shine a light on what we need to be looking down here i would expect a perpetrator to start going out of frame with stuff lots of shove away gestures lots of stuff we can't see we don't know because we don't know what was happening over there you can't see what's happening here we need to be able to go look and search out more to get people away from where the crime may have happened he's putting the focus in there and trying to shine a brighter light on it just nothing that i would expect from somebody who may have some guilt or even guilty knowledge uh in this as well so looking good to me i think we may have a three-way tie there are there any rumors that you've seen anything you want to clear up jessica i just somebody's at the store um let or said it was one of the ladies that had worked at the store said that they saw um a gentleman at a younger blonde boy matching our description of our son really filthy buying candy for him and he was just bawling in a black truck that is the only here's the problem my pickup truck black truck as a family we went down to get get a few things earlier it was earlier but they claim it was a six o'clock that that evening and i had we with sort of search and rescue until what a quarter to four yeah from we didn't ever know we know we haven't left the camp since one o'clock that afternoon so it's just a lot of hearsay and was anybody camping around you that we don't know is i come to find i didn't know the area and i didn't know i there's it's very open but you can't see much there's a uh road that goes up and along the top by we're camp underneath the reservoir basically right below it and you can go up above the reservoir and i didn't even know the road was did they i didn't know the road was up there and as i traveled up there myself i come to find out i can see everything going on in that campsite but you can't see out you can't see up you can't see around and if anybody comes to the bottom of your campground you can't even see they are so they could have come to you they could have came in you couldn't never know it and with the water was not very it was not a fast running it's a crick but it is quite loud moving through the blogs and things like that so hearing range is not all that far either so if you couldn't hear anybody coming up either so um we we were just yeah we decided we're gonna go a little exploring he was gonna be good with grandpa by the campfire we weren't more than probably 50 50 yards away in 10 minutes but the time we i seen him to the point i figured out he was gone and i come back up in the creek and i had actually seen there were some things down by the little minnows and i thought he would just love so when i come back up to get him and i yelled over to grandpa of where is you know where's little dior he immediately shocked he says i thought he came up to you because it's such a small area that's what a lot of people they don't understand is they just assume how could you let your kid at your site this area is pretty well blocked in and you can see you there's no way you couldn't not see him in what we thought and in just in a split second your whole world is upside down and vanished there's not a trace found that's the other reason why this has been called on the news is a suspension because it is not a suspension but there's not a single trace of him this this child loses stuff he's he's two almost three anybody who has a child in that age range knows he leave they leave trails they lose stuff they choose nothing there's just nothing and that's where we're starting to move is there's might there's a possibility that he may be with somebody and that's what's giving us hope that it's it's a bad thing that he will be not with us right now but it also means that there is a good chance that he is alive and with somebody so we are trying every aspect we can any aspect we can all right chase what he got this right here is a deviation from baseline so let's isolate these a little bit let's talk about Jessica first and you guys will probably expand and and see even more than this there's an increase in social confirmation glances to the interviewer back and forth confirmation glances comfort injecting information while he's talking interrupting him there's a drastic increase in her eye contract or contact to vernal I think is his name there's back and forth confirmation glances to the reporter there's a sharp increase in blink rate at the moment that he's discussing coming back from the creek then we see rapid head movement this rapid tracking of of the chin looking to different targets or threats between vernal and the interviewer and there's a sharp increase in breathing rate and a shift in breathing location from where it used to be abdominal breathing which is relaxed to chest breathing which is more associated with stress in vernal one thing we know is he has got a baseline of direct smooth flowing speech so let's spot the points here where there's a total loss of fluency minnows by the creek yelling to grandpa about his son vanished the word just vanished with no words around it doesn't describe how anything vanished just the word vanished by itself something is very off here there's something about this critical moment that I don't think is honest and I'm not saying they're guilty but something about this story sends both of their behavior off the deep end for me and the behavioral spikes are precisely at these moments these critical moments of the story Scott what do you got I think what's happening there is they're getting nervous because they're reliving that part where he came up and talk where he talked to the grandfather maybe that's what the problem is there because I couldn't figure out what was going on at that section and I think that's what's happening there because outside there there are so many you just covered everything that I so everything you're right everything is is as everything's changed there but I think it's because I went back to the part where it's because I believe it's his grandfather talking about that the shock because he talks about the shock that happened when when that came up all right mark what do you got yeah well here's something that does fit for me alive and with somebody clear bat on gestures on that illustrators that just enforce this and hold this idea down it's just a strong sense of of hope for alive and with somebody which suggests that there is a perpetrator out there this isn't Chase as you often talk about a case of the missing perpetrator there is an idea of somebody out there and the hope of being alive again this is not what I expect from somebody who is a perpetrator or is trying to hide something nefarious Greg what do you got on this one yeah I agree with you his his body language his narration as you would call it Chase his illustrators his punctuation with his hands are good when he's telling there are a couple of things and he does lose fluency he does change there's a fundamental shift there that makes you red flag up let's walk through the mechanics of these just for a second when they first start talking he says 50 yards she says 10 minutes this tells you how their brains work and compliment each other he's telling you details because that's what he does he starts off doing this the same way he's done everything else bam it's 50 yards there are four dogs whatever he's going to tell you he's going to give you that he's a small chunker she's a bigger chunker she puts it in terms of how long it would take to walk back because that for her is what's important about her child missing again people lose kids in department stores so I'm not surprised you can lose a kid outside but there's congruent message telling and he's doing most of it okay he does alive and with somebody every aspect up to that there is pretty fluid I think where he loses fluency is when he realizes that doesn't sound good for me to say I hope my kids with somebody else and then he back pedals like all hell and starts to edit in his mind and I think that's where he loses the where he loses this ability now I also agree with you chase when he comes up and he's talking about seeing these people you see his respiration go up when he's talking about the meadows he also does a downright eye accessing look we have no idea what's in this guy's head about whether he trusts the two people who were in that the two other people who were there or not so we don't know what could cause it we just see that there's something changing and then he does an eye block at this child loses stuff he's two almost three he shakes his head and he kind of drops his face goes slack and that's kind of dismissing people who don't understand this is a child this is a child he would lose things we would see it it's not like he dropped things that what they're saying in effect is he would leave a breadcrumb trail wherever he went because he's not a five-year-old who thinks about his stuff is valuable and we'll hear later he did leave a couple of things I think there's some fear of being being misunderstood and we all know that that fear of being misunderstood when you say with somebody else could cause your baseline to ramp your respiration to increase all these things we're talking about so I'm going to give him benefit of a doubt here and let's see what he does next that's what I got okay mark you sold that one you can't you can't bait that stuff you can't okay I oversell I don't win I undersell you don't care go f*** yourself I think the judge is partial the eye would miss you um we we were just yeah we decided we're gonna go a little exploring he was gonna be good with grandpa by the campfire we were at more than probably 50 50 yards away in 10 minutes well but for time we I seen him to the point I figured out he was gone and I come back up in the creek and I had actually seen there were some things down by the little minnows and I thought he would just love so when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to grandpa where is you know where's little Dior he immediately shocked he says I he came up to you because it's such a small area that's what a lot of people they don't understand is they just assume how could you let your kid at your site this area is pretty well blocked in and you can see you could there's no way you couldn't not see him in what we thought and in just in a split second your whole world is upside down and vanished there's not a trace found that's the other reason why this has been called on the news is a suspension because it is not a suspension but there's not a single trace of him this this child loses stuff he's he's two almost three anybody who has a child in that age range knows he leave they leave trails they lose stuff they choose nothing there's just nothing and that's where we're starting to move is there's might there's a possibility that he may be with somebody and that's what's giving us hope that it's it's a bad thing that he will be not with us right now but it also means that there is a good chance that he is alive and with somebody so we are drawing every aspect we can any aspect we can get what you're got tell me do you plan to maybe hold a vigil down here I guess maybe have any been thought about or kind of do you want the community in Idaho falls to rally I mean I know they don't want a lot of people going out that's what we're not real sure I don't yet again as a father who's very concerned with the whole family we'll tell you yes if we can get the whole state of Idaho up there we'd love to but in such a small area that has been combed and combed and combed something may have been missed but I don't know I've been trying I'm going to be getting with the leave of high county sheriff and snake or sorry the salmon uh snake and salmon search and rescue uh to see what their thoughts on everything is and trust me with such a small area 175 people there was nowhere to park nowhere to walk there was grid searches up from one and that's there's ridges one one side of you and the other and they're not very far apart and there was all searched all the way down to the bottom all the way the above above the reservoir the reservoir itself I don't lot a lot of people know the place the reservoir itself isn't but maybe a few feet deep you can see if you're up on top you can see the bottom of the center if you're looking at the middle of the reservoir you can see the bottom of it so everything has been 100 thoroughly checked but I nobody can guarantee me 100 so I'm going to keep looking we'll continue to look until he's found we don't care how long it takes we and we think as many people that have shared the story and continue to share his pictures and things like that if somebody has him they'll eventually somebody will come forward wondering where this child has come from with some sort of and this that may not be the case but it's it could be so that's why we're trying to look at this aspect as well and you want all right mark what do you got yeah look really simple they're accepting mass help they're going look bring bring more bring more people we've we've we've gone through with the fine tooth comb but more people the whole state come on down look until he's found we don't care how long it takes someone will come forward both of them are hopeful and open rather than pessimistic and closed and hopeful and open to help is exactly what I would expect from two parents who are desperately wanting to see their child again and don't know what's happened Scott what do you got on this one I'm going I'm not going to have much because I'm going back to what I've been saying everything looks as it should he stumbles on that the name of the rescue team or whatever but that's that's normal he's not concerned with them they're there they're doing what they're supposed to be and probably hadn't thought about the name of it since he first said it I I think everything looks the way it should so I'm not going to waste our time we go tell details that I've already gone over uh Greg what do you got yeah I think there's a reason that he loses those words in the very beginning when they ask him this vigil question well a vigil is something you do later it's not something you do to say kumbaya kumbaya stand around hey well people are looking for my kids and there's a look of dismissal in his face when he does that he eye breaks down to his right which is emotion when we look over this way we're typically emotional the backs of his mouth the sides of his mouth draw back in disapproval he's pretty much saying what and I think then his feelings start to override his thinking and he starts to stammer through all these facts he was going to spit out because that's who he is then once he gets back on topic and he's back to his words his illustrators come up and he's doing exactly what he's done every up until now I think it's just because he was in a place where he was emotional and it's starting to rise and he lost that when she starts talking his eyes drop back down into his right while she's talking and he's emotionally accessing over there over something we can't tell what that's not what we do we can see the symptoms chase what do you got yeah I think we're back to baseline here and we're indicating a little bit more comfortable behavior but if you've been subscribed to us for a while I bet you saw something here because you've been watching these videos and you got the training the only deviation here is in the ending of this clip when Jessica says that somebody's going to come forward with the information there's a lip retraction and this typically indicates that this is when the lips go into the mouth typically indicates that someone needs reassurance so just as a quick bumper sticker quote for this the lips squeezed withhold and they withdraw to get reassurance they go into the mouth to get reassurance but I don't think that has anything to do with guilt or innocence I think she genuinely needed the reassurance there that's all I got okay chase okay I'm giving it to you I'm not I'm not just giving it to you on that one all right I did the old mind meld yeah you're good about it the classic spark an oldie bit of goodie we're not real sure I don't yet again as a father who's very concerned with the whole family we'll tell you yes if we can get the whole state of Idaho up there we'd love to but in such a small area that has been combed and combed and combed something may have been missed but I don't know I've been trying I'm going to be getting with the leave a high county sheriff and snake or sorry the salmon uh snake and rip salmon search and rescue to see what their thoughts on everything is and trust me with such a small area 175 people there was nowhere to park nowhere to walk there was grid searches up from one and that's there's ridges on one side of you and the other and they're not very far apart and that was all searched all the way down to the bottom all the way the above above the reservoir the reservoir itself I don't a lot a lot of people know the place the reservoir itself isn't but maybe a few feet deep you can see if you're up on top you can see the bottom of the center if you're looking at the middle of the reservoir you can see the bottom of it so everything has been 100 thoroughly checked but I nobody can guarantee me 100 so I'm gonna keep looking we'll continue to look until he's found we don't care how long it takes we and we think as many people that have shared the story and continue to share his pictures and things like that if somebody has him they'll eventually somebody will come forward wondering where this child has come from with some sort of and this that may not be the case but it's it could be so that's why we're trying to look at this aspect as well and you want tell me about the blanket this is his blanket he doesn't go anywhere without his blanket his cup or his monkey and all three of them were left at the campground and now he will all three has to be with him he will trip over them if he has to but they are going with him and this is the first time since he's been born pretty much he's been without these things and that's why another reason another reason why we're wondering yes because this is like that we brought him home from the hospital this is his this is what comforts him any and all times this is an exact replica of a security blanket for everybody this is his actual blanket he does not go anywhere without it that's our another our other concern of why yeah should he be out there and happen to see this what would you say we're looking for you son and we will find you and we love you more than anything in the world you have a lot of people love you and are looking for you buddy we'll find you daddy we'll find you looking until we get you a home i've got a two-year-old and you guys have been all i've thought about the past two days is there anything you want to air everything we didn't get to just if somebody has him please don't hurt him just bring him home safely to us no matter what it breaks he belongs even if you have to just leave him at a store where somebody else will see him and bring him home safely to us i don't yeah just drop him off somewhere if that's not the case somebody is at so that they can see him and bring him home and if that may not be the case i'm we will search for you and search for you and search for you until we find you no matter how long it takes no matter what we got to overcome we will find you son all right greek what do you got yeah this is a great opportunity to see what baseline is for him because he spouts something that makes absolutely no sense and it's a fact it's a way for him to have some kind of marked status as he says this is an exact replica of a security blanket that's not what he really means he's just using words in a way that make him appear to be more powerful with words i guess what we see over and over and over so this is part of the reason i think all that's baseline no big deal the first time he breaks is here and by that i mean emotionally and we see if we go all the way back to when he was asking the guy asked him a question earlier and i said you could see his throat start to quiver a little before his chin boss he starts that and then we see that chin engage and then he does modified lip grip kind of of that emotional control we always say chase you just said it when you withdraw when you grip your lips you're controlling or containing something a lot of times it's emotion then he gets he takes it very figure very literally when the guy says what would you say to your child he only talks to his child daddy will find you and then you see real tears that throat quiver that chin boss and he's got a snotty nose that's a hard one to fake this guy's got a one track mind about what he's supposed to do even when she goes to talk to if you have him he goes right back saying nope i'm talking to my kid and they both talk in present tense which is a really good indicator we all know a lot of times you find something else mark what do you got yeah so look when when we were playing back that um video for ourselves we didn't play the bit where he breaks down uh crying you know often you've probably seen us coming off tapes of people uh doing crying where you'll notice that we're laughing uh that's usually because we're going yeah that isn't that isn't what crying actually looks like doesn't look anything like that and what's happened is it hasn't triggered any sense of empathy in us what it's done is to trigger a sense of comedy in it because it in us because it's so absurd often what they're doing what you just saw in in that image is somebody really crying that's what grief looks like you can tell because there's no warning signals that it's coming there's no really perceptible warning signals it ramps up really fast instead of just starting and having some warning signals and then like here's my grief it comes in slow and then ramps up really quick and then you'll notice how he doesn't try and take control over it in any way because he can't he doesn't even know it's happening until he's well it's well into it and that's why you don't see him hiding his face you don't see him doing any images of um of eye blocking during that you will see the eyes drop uh but that's defeat i think which is which is sad to sad to see so my question for you would be look watch it and was your empathy triggered i would guess the majority of you out there would say yeah absolutely my empathy was triggered why because you human beings and you're seeing a real emotion and you're designed to have empathy for that chase what you got on this one in you know the in this video the optimism stays present and the emotion appears to be genuine in both of them like you guys are saying here and the level of comfort and overall lack of stress around talking about that blanket and other belongings is indicative of innocence to me and genuine desire to instill a connection to him the the child in the interviewer one thing you'll notice when videos come out like this you'll see parents either trying to get you to identify with them or you'll try they'll try to get you to identify with the missing person to humanize the missing person instead of humanizing themselves and telling you how stressful it's been and how innocent they are they humanize the missing person and that's what we're seeing here and that is a pretty good indicator just another indicator to layer onto the all all the ones that you guys have identified that's all i got who am i miss scott what do you got oh shoot here i am laughing it's the most serious one sorry to okay i'll i'll just finish up with what all you guys said the emotion we're seeing is real this is tough and you're right mark he doesn't see it coming he's not ready for it he's not pretending to to do that it's real they're worried they're stressed this is this is all this is the way it should look it's not the that hanging on each other crying and i did this and i feel like this and i've been a wreck and we don't hear any of that all we're seeing is them worried about their child and i believe they're on the impression that he's still around but i think they really believe you know if he's alive that he's still around whether somebody grabbed him or whatever happened to him we have no other earthy idea the island is you tell me about the blanket this is his blanket he doesn't go anywhere without his blanket his cup or his monkey and all three of them were left at the campground and now he will all three has to be with him he will trip over them if he has to but they are going with him and this is the first time since he's been born pretty much he's been without these things and that's why another reason another reason why we're wondering yes because that's amazing that we brought him home in from the hospital this is his this is what comforts him any and all times this is an exact replica of a security blanket for everybody this is his actual blanket he does not go anywhere without it that's another our other concern why should he be out there and happen to see this what would you say we're looking for you son and we will find you and we love you more than anything in the world you have a lot of people love you and are looking for you buddy we'll find you daddy will find you looking until we get you a home i've got a two-year-old and you guys have been for a time past two days is there anything you want to hear anything we didn't get to just if somebody has him please don't hurt him just bring him home safely to matter what he belongs even if you have to just leave him at a store where somebody else will see him and bring him home safely to us i know yeah just drop him off somewhere that's not the case somebody is at so that they can see him and bring him home and if that may not be the case i'm we will search for you and search for you and search for you until we find you no matter how long it takes no matter what we got to overcome we will find you son all right mark what are you seeing up to this point but this is very like that australian couple uh that we saw way back who'd who'd lost their child and we all said look if you're focusing on this this this couple you're focusing in the wrong place and the child was found elsewhere chase had the profile of the of the perpetrator there spot on similar situation it for me if you are focusing on this couple you are absolutely going down the wrong route i know it probably feels so true to you that there's something going on here i'm telling you that absolutely isn't chase what are you seeing till now yeah at the time of the filming of these videos it looks like the parents seem to genuinely not know their son's whereabouts i will say that it appears they genuinely don't know his whereabouts in my opinion there's something interesting about their stories even in the other videos to to date so after you know they've got divorced they continue to refer to each other's innocence in terms of opinion and all these other videos jessica would say quote i think i quote i believe in both of our innocence and vernal would say in my opinion yes she is innocent so their innocence was about opinion i thought that was interesting i did believe if i all i had to go on as a profile it was this i can't ask them questions i think this is probably the wrong place to focus but i think there's something missing something about that story is off for me and god bless that little kid i hope he's okay somewhere and i hope he gets returned greg yeah what i'm seeing is exactly that there are some things that make you wonder hmm why is the person behave this way but nothing that's a giant red flag this is mostly as it's supposed to be when people lose a child they're going to feel guilt just period it's part of what destroys the relationship mark that you point to because if i can't express that guilt for that child being missing in a way that's meaningful for me to be able to get past it then somebody else has to take the blame and often people point to each other and go at each other we're not seeing that we're not seeing any interaction we're not seeing maybe it was this guy maybe it was that guy we're hearing help me find this kid which is what you would think at three days he's very meticulous in driving these details and saying we've got all this resource and all this going on we will still take more we want every stone turned so when i see that i think i agree with mark it's hard to get a guy who just did something to his kid and disappeared his kid to want to bring more people in maybe he's suspicious of the other people that are camping with him and maybe that plays out long term chase we'll never know but we just got to figure it out based on this video alone that's what we see scott what are you seeing so far here's the way it looks to me this the child if he goes everywhere and he has the blanket the other things with him some someone or something snatched this kid something he's gone obviously something happened to him so it's either a person or an animal has got him i know there's a lot of water there and he says you can see in the bottom of all that we're all the time seeing these videos where people are finding cars in the bottom of these lakes that have already been they've looked in there and they've gone over it and these guys go in and like hey we found this car you're looking for so maybe he's in the water maybe he got in there and just fell in and is under something i don't i don't know but he's gone obviously so something's happened to him so from a logic perspective somebody either somebody knows what happened to him because somebody took him or nobody knows what happened to him because something like an animal or something snatched him but he's definitely been snatched because he wasn't coaxed away because he didn't take his stuff with him they were there saying come here little kid like sometimes in malls what was the big thing to do and they would snatch people as someone would stand by the door behind the door and they'd have a little kid near the exit door and he'd be waving at a girl and he'd be telling her to come over a little cute little kid and when the girl got close enough the door would open up and they grab them they they'd run with them they'd snatch them out of the mall that way so and sometimes it still happens in those near near gas stations and those situations but in this situation there was no apparently there's no coaxing the kid because he would have said oh hang on a second i'll be right with you how to get my stuff however kids say that but but his stuff was still there so i think somebody snatched him or an animal got him and maybe he's in that water that's what i i can't stop thinking about the water part maybe he's falling in there all right i think this is a good infelizan we'll see you next time see you