 Like labels were hitting me. I had to turn down a world star deal, like no cap. 03 Greedo, like I don't know if you guys, you guys are familiar. He's one of my favorite artists. And I guess unknowingly not knowing like that AI, such a new concept, he basically fell for it. And like, he hit me up. He hops on the Pink Floyd remix, which is coming out soon. And I got a break to the guy like, yo, bro, like, it was AI and like, he loved it. What up, what up, what up? I'm Brandon Shawn. And I'm Corey. And we are back with another episode of No Labels Necessary Podcast. You can catch us every Tuesday, every Thursday on Apple Music Spotify, YouTube, wherever you stream your podcast, here at the intersection of creativity and currency. Yes, we are about that. No labels, no rules, lifestyle. And we are here trying to help other people see different ways to get it done in the music industry, entrepreneurship, the content creator economy. And today we got some episodes for y'all. Assets, some topics, I mean, we talking about a big time music executive, said, you don't necessarily need it on your masters. And a pretty popular artist said, yeah, I agree. I don't care about my masters. And on top of that, we're gonna tell y'all what falling off really looks like. If you ever wonder what falling off truly means, we found the goal. We found the real definition of what falling off means. But before that, J.D.'s birthday, this artist had an amazing promo campaign that he did. It was a very unique idea and he flipped it and it's the type of concept that any indie artist can flip for themselves if they use the method and way of thinking that he did. We did a quick interview with him. He blessed us with his time, his perspective and told us the behind the scenes are actually how he went viral and really took his streams up to like 7,000 plus new streams per day. Check out this talk with J.D.'s birthday. I think you're gonna love it. All right, everybody, for this first segment today, we got somebody very special. We actually talked about him on the podcast probably a week or so ago. He had one of the dopest marketing campaign ideas and it brought him a lot of attention. So he wanted to get behind the mind of the campaign. Today, we got J.D.'s birthday on the podcast. What's up, J.D.? What's the deal, y'all? Appreciate y'all having me. Yeah, no problem, man. Hey, well, like for those who don't know and recognize the name, J.D. actually used iSpice to flip into a brand campaign for him where people actually thought iSpice was giving him a shoutout. He used AI. I know y'all seen a lot of these AI campaigns and if you missed it again, he basically made it seem like iSpice was shouting him out, gave him some love, he got hella followers. We'll play that clip right at the end or maybe even before this when we put it up on the pod. But J.D., what even gave you this idea? Okay, so essentially like any other artist, I just needed a way to promote my music. And I was like TikTok, TikTok, TikTok, and that was doing well, but it wasn't translating to Instagram. I'm like, man, I need to hit both of them at the same time. I realized how important Instagram rap pages are. Any page that will sell you promo for like 40 to 60 bucks, it's worth it. If you have the right song and you have the right promo idea. So I started working in a shoutout to my boy, Milky Underground for real. He paired me with iSpice for hella of the promos. He would be like iSpice's ex or something like that and that kind of started the run in a way. Cause when I saw AI pick up, I was like, yo, this is a gold mine. This is crypto part too. You could fit, there has to be a way to get rich off this. You feel me? But like, I was like, man, so I was, I just put two and two together. I was like, we're running the iSpice JD promo. I was like, what if we got her to say something? And that's when like it clicked in my head. I just typed in on TikTok, how to do AI. And then I went on the first website, downloaded iSpice's voice, spend it to have her say what I want her to say. And then I just like put in promo form, like put a little caption above it, gave them direction of how I wanted them to post it, yo, tag me in this slide, blah, blah, blah. Give them the breakdown, sent the money, boom. I seen it do successful on one. I was like, oh yeah, I got to run it on all of them. So like I started like looking for more pages with good engagement, you know, not too high of a price. Cause I'm an independent artist. Like I have no backing, no manager, no team label, nothing. It's me in my room. So I'm just like out of pocket, like giving them what I can. And yeah, it worked. It clicked. And that was like one of my marketing strategies. I had something I was doing with TikTok and that was kind of picking up steam. But like I said, it wasn't translating. So when those two clicked, it was boom. Like it started going up. I went up probably, or like I doubled my following basically cause I was at like 4,500 and then like almost 8,000. So I damn near doubled it and like, which was crazy cause I had not seen that much engagement for something to do with music. So when I saw that I was like, oh yeah, this is like definitely AI is like a very good marketing tool. Did you say you doubled it for a K and what period of time just to be clear? It was like three to four days. In less than a week, it was done. Like it was like, boom, it had like the damage was done. And the song, the streams, like it's right now it's getting between five to 7,000 a day sitting at like 500 K. And this is like all within a two month time period from when I dropped it to now two and a half months. So yeah, just seeing that work, seeing that happen. It was like, it goes to show. Yeah. And I know you, you said too, before y'all kind of got to the AI voice. You was already running kind of a ice spice related campaign. So what did that look like before you transitioned into the AI voice up? Okay. So the first time my boy Milky Underground, he was always running promos for me. And he would do like, he would just do stuff where he pairs like a famous person with an underground rapper and kind of like, tries to like leverage, you know, but in a fun creative way, like, not also I'm like super cock chasing shit. Just, you know, try to make it like funny and creative. And he did that. And he would do like, he, I remember the first time he did it, it was like, Ice Spice's ex makes a song about her. And it was like, for a song I did called Ice Spice. And that she like, that she hit the Explorer page for show. Like it hit the Explorer page. It was the first time I had had some, cause I never had one of my own posts at the Explorer page yet, but as far as like doing a promo with somebody, that's the first time it was like over a thousand likes. My story views were jumping. I'm like, okay, there's something here. Like I just have to take what works and run with it at the end of the day. Like I saw there was something there. I saw the AI put two and two together. Yeah, it was just otherworldly. The way that it shifted things, like I had, bruh, like labels were hitting me. Worldstar, I had to turn down a Worldstar deal, like no cap, like they gave me, they were like trying to get it so that we could like do Pink Floyd and the AI stuff on their page. But I was like, it just wasn't like the right situation for me. But I'm just saying that to say that big people were hitting me up like 03 Greedo. Like, I don't know if you guys are familiar. He's one of my favorite artists and he was released from prison earlier this year. And I guess unknowingly, not knowing like that AI, such a new concept, he basically fell for it. And like he hit me up and he like, he hit me up. He hops on the Pink Floyd remix, which is coming out soon. And he like hop just basically endorses me. Like, yo, this is dope. Brings me to the studio. I got a break to the guy like, yo, bruh, like, I got to tell you something. Like it was AI and like, he loved it. Like he loved it. He was like, damn, that's crazy. Like you were able to do that leverage the situation. So like I'm in a label. I'm sorry. I'm in like the studio with a big artist, somebody I looked up to and it's like, I got here off of like AI. It felt weird. Creativity, bruh. Not the AI creativity, the fact you even put it out there like that. That's beautiful, man. I think like just hearing as you ended, you buy yourself, you did something like this. And then so people can see how easily you can get, I don't wanna say in all the rooms, but like really get reached out to get seen by people just by approaching something creatively. Like people, that stands out. Like if people are looking for the creative minds, everybody's doing the same thing. And you said something that made me realize what you did was even more genius. Cause I talked about on the podcast that it was great that you didn't just say, like, I don't know, like, hey, J's birthday is the best in the world or something like that when you had Ice Fights Talk. You mentioned it in a way where I was like, here's this guy who's mentioned to me, it's kind of creepy, but he's now convinced me, right? But I wasn't aware that you were already like running some promo with her name anyway. So it almost really was like, yo, this guy is truly like talking about me a lot even though I don't know him, but now he's convinced me. The whole narrative was set to be realistic the way everything was set up. I love that. Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, I guess in a way I was like building off a story that probably like a larger audience wasn't familiar with, but in my head, I was like, I was just gonna do it on Milky's page. But when I seen it work there, I was like, yeah, this is like, this could be a page wide, like on all the pages. Yeah. Has Ice Fights seen it? Like how she reached out? Nah, no. Nah, I would love for her to know she's dope. I fuck with Ice Fights heavy. Like a lot of people, it'll be like saying some crazy shit in the comments. Like honestly, some of the comments are ridiculous, but I feel like it really conditions you like to like feel how it feels like this is what it feels like when stuff starts popping, people are opinionated. And like it just conditions you kind of to realize, yo, whatever I do, no matter how I do it, if it's creative and outside the box, people are gonna have something to say. But as far as like, people would be like, oh, this is not a good look for like bigger artists. Like, oh, if I spy sees this or if that I see this, I'm like, man, and it always be like the people with nothing going on. It's like, y'all don't know what bigger people are thinking. Like they're like looking at somebody doing something creative, they're like, damn, I would have done the same thing in his position life. Bro, I'm so glad you said that. Cause it's funny, this is actually last episode. So I made like a mistake talking about these guys and paying or whatever. And they like ripped my words up and paired it together, like showing how I was wrong. And I was like, I did exact same thing if I was in their position, right? Like try to take a bigger figure and then like flip it to get the clout. So that's, it definitely shows the people in this space. You know, yeah, you're gonna have some people who are salty, but yeah, a lot of them are like, no, I get what's going on. You know, there might be certain lines to cross, but a lot of times people get what's happening. So I'm glad you understand that. The salty artist today is a collaborator tomorrow. You know what I'm saying? That's how I look at it. If Niz and Jay-Z can make up off of real shit, you know what I mean? Like a post like that, come on. Yeah, man. I know you said you mentioned, you know, this is kind of your first campaign of this type. So like, what do you feel like you, you learn from this situation that you're gonna kind of carry for it with you? Like, do you feel like you, you started to put some things together that you can replicate in a building a system for? Or are you just kind of still winging it on that side? Right. I would say as far as going forward, you take bits and pieces of what worked before. So in the past, I've used like, I don't know, you guys know this like a weed YouTuber called Fulcrum. He like went viral this year, like the fater than a hoe, fater than a hoe, fater than a hoe guy. Anyway, he's a popping figure on YouTube. And last year, I like sampled his voice to make a beat. Like we done been like, we've been doing stuff like that where it's like we'll take like a popping figure at the time going viral, like a make a beat out of Andrew Tate or like make a beat out of, like me and my friend group, like we've been on that for like a while. So it's like we've been knowing how to like flip like some commotion going on in the media and to like traction for what we're trying to do. And I feel like to answer your question of what I'm gonna take with me, I feel like it's really the same thing that I've been carrying with me, like be observant, be like plugged in. Like I was like listening to Rick Rubin talk and he was saying there's two types of artists, like one that disconnect goes into the woods and like meditates and like, I don't want like, and then makes music and then there's an artist that like you're plugged in. Like, and to be a mark, I feel like to be a marketer slash artist, what you have to do if you don't have a team, you've got to be plugged in, like TikTok scrolling, like look for the next ideas. There's gonna be a lot of crap to like sift through, but at the end of the day, you're gonna be able to pull something because why reinvent the wheel? People have viral videos, like watch the viral videos and apply it to your situation. And AI for AI, it was the same thing. I just saw AI and I applied it to my situation and it probably won't be the last time I do that. So it's like, in the future, I'll probably find different ways like, because it's so new and there's like so many different things you could like fake, I guess you would lack of better words, it is what it is. And yeah, like, I just feel like you just have to stay observant and if something works, replicate it. And people are gonna be like, you're gonna have people that try to detract you, like, oh man, like you got lucky, bro. Like, it's like, no, bro. This is like literally, this is literally creativity, reincarnating itself time and time again. Like that never goes away. Like there's endless opportunities. So if you did something once, you could leverage off that to do something again. So it sounds like the strategy is pay attention to kind of your cultural sphere. And then when you see a big cultural moment pop off, you try to figure out if there's a way you can incorporate into your music. Now I'm assuming if you see attraction, you keep it going. If you don't, you just kind of keep it pushing for the next cultural moment. Is that pretty much correct? Yeah, that's somewhat the sauce. I would say also what I realized with the AI stuff or just like what the AI stuff opened my mind to is that you can create events. And I think people don't understand that large artists like big major label artists, they do that all the time. How do you think people like keep their name in the headlines, like blue-faced in the headlines all the time? You think all that commotion, it could be going on in his day to day, but I feel like a lot of stuff is fabricated or enlarged to be like larger than life. And I feel like you can do that. You could either like, you can like create a situation or you could build off what's going on in your life. You don't have to wait for like a major cultural moment, but it can help. It could always help. I mean it's not like, it's not something you should pass up on. So just like stay alert, but also you could create something. You can make a situation. Like I like did an AI like, I faked a news clip. You feel me? Like I created like a situation where it's like, now it's like, I could promo, oh da da da, JD going to jail or JD got arrested or da da da on some like, you know, on some, not on something benign, like not like some crazy allegations, but just little things like you could fake moments in time. And that's not like the only way to do things, but it definitely is a route that I feel like a lot of artists use all the time. Just to stay in the conversation. Yeah, for sure. What, yo, you said you're doing like 7K streams a day on that song right now. What were the streams before you did this ice vice post? Probably half, probably half. Like the TikTok stuff was doing cool. I was hitting like viral videos and it was getting people to listen to the song and that landed it and playlists, you know how like the DSPs work? Like if you get hella pushed on a song, right as it drops is going to be on like release radar and this and that. So like that really gave it a push. And then when I added the Instagram stuff, the ice vice, AI stuff, that's what like basically doubled the numbers. So what exactly were you doing on TikTok? I just like, I'll just take viral videos and repost them like with the song. I mean, dude, I feel like I was doing stuff that was like hella like duh stuff that like when I thought about it, it was like how have I not been doing this? And then it doesn't like, I feel like people are gonna see this and be like, almost like, yeah, you can't start doing it, but you just gotta make sure you got the right song. And like, even if a song is good, it just might not be the right song. Like I've had like plenty songs that I feel are better than Pink Floyd, but it was Pink Floyd. And I feel like you will know when it's the right song cause you want to like, what you want to do is test the waters, like have your main Instagram account, like whatever song, like post for like a month. And then at the end of like post a bunch of songs, different songs every day. At the end of the month, see what song got the most reaction to it. Like it's gonna be right in front of you. Like, okay, people like this one, but not that one. All right, let me try to run with this one. And it's all you, it's all what you want to do, but I just think that that really helps is putting a song out there, putting a few songs out there, seeing which one is doing the best out of the bunch and then really running forward with that one, doing everything you can, putting all your resources into it. Yo man, I respect your marketing mind cause there's a lot of artists that like, they like the ideas, the sound of them, but you actually have the patience to go through the process. Like, oh, post a whole bunch of songs for a month and then look back at the data. A lot of people don't go through that. They're just like, oh, it's not working right now. Oh, this isn't working right now. And then they don't even think to go back and look at everything. So like setting that threshold in the beginning and hear you even say, hey, then I was testing a campaign with my homeboy and that started to work. And then I said, oh, I need to put this on other pages. Like everything is that whole process. Like combine things that are already working and then also test at the same time. Like that's what I boil it down to. And that is really a lot of the process when it comes to marketing. And there are some other cool things you can do as things grow, but like at the base, that's it. You know, and when you're at ground zero. So I love to see that, man. Like, where did JD's birthday come from? Where's that name from? The day of JD's birthday? Let me see. It really comes cause like the weekend. Now, like me and my friends were talking like, man, what's that like? He just like, birthday came into the equation based off the weekend. Like we were listening to the weekend. And he was like, my friend told me, he's not my friend no more, but he told me back then he was like, you should call yourself JD. Cause my name was already JD. It was YSL JD on some like young shit. I was like young, I was like 18. I put it YSL JD. And my like, my friend, he started going up more cause like I've seen like a homeboy blow up. So like I seen what it's like for like, okay, the hard work behind the scenes, like trying tests and stuff. That's what like really gave me the motivation. But anyway, like he gave me like the name JD's birthday and it really comes from the weekend. But now to me, it means a whole different thing. It's like getting cake, living every day, like it's your birthday, really just operating on those principles where it's like, get money and make sure to enjoy your life because it's sort of, that's what like a, that's just what it means to me. It can mean something else to somebody else, but that's the official term. Though, though, well, my last thing, to do something like what you did with the AI and the way you did it, it has, there's certain brands that that works for and certain brands that doesn't, right? Not that you can't go saying tools, but you would have to do it in a different way. So with that being said, how do you see the brand and voice that you wanted to develop with your fan base and people who know you? Well, it's like, for me, I just need to get the platform. I don't know anybody in the industry. I don't really got any backing like that. I don't got anybody writing for me in this shit. So it's like, for me, I got to do what I got to do to get myself in front of people. And as far as like what I want my message to be, or like, sorry, can you rephrase that question for me one more time? I think about it like, it's like the personality, like, is it more playful? You know what I mean? Like, famine, scamming, or like, you know, like there's different ways that when we think about a different artist, like how they are, like what was that that you're aiming for personally? Man, I think I'm just like, I don't know, I don't like the two cool artists. Like the two cool artists, like where it's like, they don't like to, they just want to be like chill all the time and relaxed. And like, I mean, I guess it works for some people, like you got the Cardi's and stuff that it works for, but like for me personally, I'm just going to be myself. Like whatever that entails, like on one day, I might want to be like more reclusive and I might go like ghosts for like a week, but then I come back and I'm like, I got stuff to talk about and I got music to show. So it's like, I guess it's really a balance. To me, it's keeping a balance of like, cause like, look, I've seen like people go up, I'm doing some goofy shit. Like, and I had to draw a line for myself. I was like, yeah, I'm not doing that shit. Like, there's just some stuff it was like, I'm not doing. And I think I just drew my line where it's like, okay. Like, so basically there's like artists, like summers and autumn, like in the underground and stuff, like they faked like mugshots and arrests and all this stuff like on the come up and like the fans know this, but they don't care. And it's like, to me it's like, I'm just trying to get my fan base. I'm just trying to get my voice heard. Like, I just want them to hear my music and like take me for how I am, whether if I'm gonna be like one day more silly and goofy or one day I'm gonna be like more serious. Like, but I get, I get how you're saying, some brands it doesn't work for, but like, I don't know. To me, I never looked at it like, I never looked too deep into it. I was just like, yeah, I'm gonna just do this. And then they're gonna hear my music and then I got eyes on me. They gonna hear my next song and my next song and then I could build a relationship, group chats, discord, stuff like that. I love it, right? You're not overthinking. And I mean, in a way you build that brand over your time, just because if you're doing it and your fans know you're doing this type of stuff, that kind of becomes the brand. Like they actually appreciate the creativity and you taking these like shots, like just shooting your shot, you know? This comes like almost an inside joke. Yeah, exactly. And the rest of the music community really isn't. Yeah, yeah. I could see something like that developing where it's like they're expecting me to come up, come out with every song with some creative marketing type way. Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. Those are the people people pay attention to. Cause they know like, oh, if he does something, it is going to have some thought into it. It's not gonna be regular. And that's how you get people like trained to actually pay attention like Kendrick does and people like J. Cole do. I like, like, contrary to popular opinion, like I'm a big fan of like 2017, like six, nine. And I like love like how he garnered attention, bro. Like there's something about it. Like he was like holding 18 million viewers on live at one point. Like he was sending big records and like as far as like from a marketing standpoint, I really, I could really, really get behind like that type of thing. And like I'm not gonna go as far as to say it directly inspired what I'm doing now, but I go back and I look at stuff like that. Like, all right, like he really, cause what he did with academics is what I feel like I'm doing now with these pages. Like, yeah, he had it locked in with act and like they was going back and forth on some virus shit constantly, making sure both their names are hot. And like, that's how I like to build relationships with these pages because really, y'all just gonna make each other more and more. Yeah. I think you touched on a really good point too earlier. And this is something that me and Sean was talking literally just talking about maybe like three, four days ago, right? And that's, hey, I don't have to try to jump straight for the DJ academics or the our generation music or the raps, right? The pages that I'm pretty sure you've seen cost a couple hundred, a couple thousand dollars, right? If I can find a small page, $20, $40, $60 that has at least a 10th of an impact, but it's still within the same world, I have the potential to hit these same pages and not spend anything, you know what I'm saying? And so, and like we've seen a lot of viral moments like that happen on our side, but I think where a lot of artists tend to get caught up is you hit a seal and be like, okay, I have access to the our generations or raps in the DJ academics. I'm just gonna stay in this pocket versus like, what you're probably seeing is like, hey, there's these new pages that haven't really reached that point yet, but I have faith that they'll grow. They're willing to work with me. Hey, let me just build this relationship and take advantage of what I have access to right now. And it's still in the same world, so I'm good pretty much. You know what I'm saying? I think that's a very important point that like everybody's watching is like, needs to kind of take away, because like me and Sean literally just have this same conversation, like we keep going for the big pages, we need to culturally reset and go back down the scale, you know what I'm saying? Because these smaller pages are kind of impacting the conversation a lot more, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I paid the big pages, man. I paid them like I seen what it does, and it's not much more than what the smaller pages are doing. Like, if it's gonna hit the, if the post is good, and it's gonna hit the Explorer page, it don't matter what page you're posting on. That's the thing. Right, you're right. That's the beauty of great content and where the algorithm is right now. That's where we are. Well, amen, appreciate you stopping by and having this convo. I think there's a lot of game in what you said, it's really encouraging to hear someone in your position, who hasn't really blown up yet, be so thoughtful. And I thought it was cool what you did, just seeing it, right? But then talking to you and knowing that there's like real thought and intention behind what you do, I don't have any doubt that at some point you're gonna do something else worth talking about for sure. And I really appreciate you guys. Like, it's cool to be on here for real. No problem, man. No problem, man. Make sure y'all follow him at JD's birthday. Go hit him up, check his music out. Other than that, man, appreciate you stopping by. Let me go and get to the next segment. Quick second, have you ever seen an artist catch some traction and then they start to move? The numbers start to grow, they might even go viral, but then fast forward a year from now, somehow their numbers haven't really grown that much. They drop back close to the same monthly listeners they had before the traction and viral moment. Well, that's because you have to know how to convert those moments into careers. And we've done this again and again with not only songs, but artists. And so has J.R. McKee, who's been a part of helping artists like Lil Durk, Rod Wave, Justin Scott, and Money Long. And we just did a collab where J.R. McKee does a step-by-step breakdown of how he took Money Long from zero to millions of monthly listeners and winning a Grammy over Beyonce, Mary J. Bly's, and Jasmine Sullivan. Check out this breakdown while we still have it up. You can check it out at www.brandmannetwork.com slash Grammy. Don't forget the www or it won't work. Again, that's www.brandmannetwork.com slash Grammy. Back to the video. All right, so hopefully y'all enjoyed that interview with JD's birthday. Shout out to him. Y'all show him some support. Just another indie artist on the rise, as many of y'all are. So show him some love. But now we got another topic because there's a big time music exact that doesn't necessarily think that artists should own their masters. Check out this clip. Love Kevin Liles. He's a very good friend of mine. But he said, Great. But his whole point was, I don't think artists should own their masters just to own their masters. What are you talking about? Why should you own it? Ever. Why? Because you gave them a loan? That bank gives you a loan for your house. You own the house. You pay the payments at your house. It's their house if you don't make the payment. But it's your house when you make the payment. The labels give you a loan. But yet they turn that loan into ownership and perpetuity. Get the out of here. And they know what's wrong. What you warned an artist about. Look at the length of the licensing agreement. How many songs do you have to deliver? Look at what counts against your options. So an artist will put out a product once quicker now. They want the revenue of it, but they don't want to count it against his options because he'll get out of the agreement quicker. What difference does it make? As long as you're making the money, shut the f*** up and let this man do his thing. That he should receive the benefit of getting out that agreement based off of those terms. Not based off, you can put out five albums with only one per year counts. You understand what I'm saying? I don't want to say anything that's not crystal clear. I want to make it uncomfortable. I don't care about these people. So to make it clear, this is Steve style talking, but it's homie Kevin Lowes is the one who said you shouldn't necessarily own your masters as an artist. Jacory, do you agree? Such a slippery slope. Slippery slope? Such a slippery slope. So I agree with the bigger point that he's making while I think that the deal should be something that's being worked towards or what an artist does on it. I do agree with that, right? Like the house example is an example that was used for me a couple of years ago and it does make a lot of sense because like once you pet out the mortgage off, you own the house, right? Versus this, you can complete all the requirements for the project and things like that. And like, you don't have any ownership of it. So that I do agree with. I do agree with. Who should own it? I think it still comes down to sweat equity and the level of investment. So like to the point he made earlier, he was like, yo, Kevin, I was looking at like, yo, if I put up all this capital and resources that I should own it. They don't agree with it. You know what I'm saying? If the resources that are needed to make the thing move are being overwhelmingly given from one side and that means that one side is overwhelmingly taking all the risk, right? And I do think in that scenario, that entity should maybe not necessarily own all of it. Probably could be a point that some people might make. Maybe not own all of it, on all of it. But I think does deserve like majority ownership of it. You know what I'm saying? Because yeah, it's easy for the artist who hasn't put anything up to view it through a different lens, right? So, hey, if I put in half a million dollars in this flow, you just walk away. I just lost half a million dollars, right? So because I'm incurring majority of the risk, this is my shit. You know what I'm saying? That's how I feel about it. So that's why I say I think it's a slippery. So I can understand both sides of the argument the creative and the business argument for it and those who kind of fall really deeply on one side. But ultimately I do think the point he made, you know what I'm saying? About like that deal structure that you're paying back should at least count towards future ownership. That I do agree with. I think that should be the case. Yeah, I definitely see both sides of this where of course you had a house example that was the first thing where I clearly saw like, yo, this is wild. Yeah, that you don't own your shit after you pay it off or anything else that you pay off, you know, with a car. You pay it off and you own the thing. I pay it off. I pay it off. The other person still owns the thing, which is an amazing deal for the label. Like that's crazy. I front you some money and for you to go build my asset. This is my asset and you go make it valuable, right? That's crazy when you think about it. But on the other side, the risk as a business or why the hell am I gonna give you some money and not really participate much on the back end? Like why am I gonna give you money to then go own? Like to then make me the money back and then I don't own it or earn anything. Like I don't earn no interest on this thing. I don't get to really experience the upside of this thing and I have the expertise to actually make this thing valuable and tap into those resources, right? So I think that's where we get the ebb and flow. Now we are in a, now we are in a day where yes, it makes a lot of sense for artists to say, I want ownership of this shit and I don't really need you label for anything, right? And because of that, I'm gonna own my masters. But on the flip side of that, it's, well, hey artist, you don't need me for anything. I'm not gonna provide you services like that. I'll find you the money and kind of be a bank, right? In this agreement, no, it doesn't make any sense for a label to then like own some significant portion of the masters. But I am still in business for a profit. Like I'm not in business for you to make the money back and pay me back. Like maybe when I'm like, I'm not trying to break even like every year I got investors and board directors to report to, I need to grow the business. So like thinking about both sides, I feel it from a label standpoint is just again, well, how am I gonna get my money? Cause the conversation needs to then be like creatively, how can we make this work? Do I get more of a bigger share of royalties or do I get a longer lifespan that I receive a return? Yes, you own the masters, right? Or maybe do I own profit sharing off of the masters for X period of time and I don't own your masters, right? Then letting y'all know y'all can get creative as y'all want to with these deals. Like it all is about what the two people agree on. There are standard things, but then there's things that you can make shake for you and whatever your agreement like is. So I could say profit sharing versus ownership. I could say ownership and no profit share. I could say merch and no touring or I could say touring and no merch. Like all these things are up like for, you know, negotiation. Y'all tell me what makes sense for my label on a, like if the label doesn't own masters. And I'm not saying there's nothing that doesn't. I'm just saying like I asked the question versus say it in this agreement. Cause I know there's some artists out there who haven't thought about it from this side. We know we have plenty of executives and managers and people like that who listen and y'all already kind of got some answers and thought something in mind. But for the artists who've never thought about that, you need to because one, in some of this encouragement and empowerment we're creating entitlement along with it, right? Yes, we want you to own as much as you can own. We want you to build your business not get taken advantage of, but on the other side, to really do that in the best of your abilities and still do good business or not miss out on good opportunities, you have to understand the business models of the people that you're trying to deal with or what benefits do they really have? All right? You go, oh no, I don't want to give you this, this, then this. The person on the other side of the table might just be like, well, damn, bro, like, I mean, it's just not worth it for me. So how do I make it worth it for you based on the model at hand and get into business with you with what I need in mind? Those are all things to think about. And I know artists that sign record label deals completely own their masters, like, and we're not talking about like this distribution deal, which is different. Typically you don't have your masters up, but there's, so there's record labels, especially on the any side who are willing to negotiate shit like that. I mean, 21 Savage wrapped about it, man. So he own out his master. All of his masters, 100% of his masters or he has a significant portion of ownership on all his masters. I don't know, I don't want to speak, but he just said it in the song. I'm just going off with the lyrics. You know, that's just out of curiosity. I don't know anything at all. Like, so I'm not implying anything when I say that, but because again, even that's the thing, all right? You can have percentages of ownership on your masters. All of this stuff is literally, like I said, up for negotiation, you just get creative and we read these standard deals, but like the standard isn't necessarily something you should follow when it comes to doing a deal as an artist. It's something to be aware of. And then now what's the value of this person on the other side? What are the things that I want to participate in? Do I truly want to manage a business in this area or that area? All of it is something to think about. Like some people are like, yo, all I need is a tour manager, right? I don't need a label, I don't need an investor. I just need a tour manager, right? And then some people, I need to just go hard on this content thing or some people I need the label infrastructure or some people still even say they need radio, which is, you know, it makes sense for some people. So, you know, it's just something to think about. I agree with what Steve is saying today, for sure. Like it's a, those deals don't make sense today, but I think when we look back at the old days, when labels were creating the value, not saying the artist in their work wasn't valuable in terms of the quality and the talent at hand. 1,000% is there, right? But it's just like artwork, right? We know as artists and people who are really in this space the value of shit, but when you're looking at artwork in a gallery, a lot of that value, the Basquiatts and Warhols, the actual value that people are willing to pay for it and or invest in it is based on the marketing of it all. It's based on how it got pushed into the marketplace. And we told the unknowing consumers that there's value here. You get what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it comes down to, it comes down to just the whole bubble we talk about, you know, the artist and sometimes where I can understand how is the artist, where, you know, you feel like around you that isn't music as good as yours. No, I always think, you know, you get in praise for it. You really just hear the fan feedback. We always go back to how much fans can change perception, get it back, both, you know what I'm saying, front world facing internet shit and behind the scenes sometimes, man. A lot of fans, a lot of artists have taken to heart for better or worse things that fans have said and ran and directions with it, right? So I can understand, bro, you getting thousands of people telling you, your music is fine, you understand and you think that's why shit is going. But then to your point about understanding the value of the person on the other side of the table, that's why I think it all comes down to, because if you're like, hey, like, I don't need this fire as marketer and this publicist and this radio guy to go, I have my own situation, then you're right, it doesn't make sense to be given up masters, right? Because to your point is like, it's gonna be more work for you, but you could go put together a situation that gives you the same opportunity with a lot less have been given up. But if you do not have those things or you understand the value of those things, but you know, you can't get it on your own, then you can make an argument for the other side, right? Like I've heard lots of interviews from artists that said things like, I gave up the masters around my first two projects just to get into the building, right, to be able to work, but I knew that I had at least 10 more years of career left, you know what I'm saying? So it was a flip I was willing to make. Like I've heard stories like that, you know, that have gone either way. So it worked out. And it worked out. Yeah, exactly, you know? Like I think there are a lot more success stories in that then get talked about publicly, you know? There are a lot more people, I know that I've met behind the scenes that would say that, but not too many that would say that, like upfront, you know. So that comes from having a plan, right? Yeah. Again, so one, understanding the business model of the people that you're trying to go in business with and then building expectations and plans around that. So you can have a long-term strategy. Yeah. But instead of just getting surprised, oh shoot, man, I didn't realize I didn't own my masters or I didn't realize all the value that could come from a masters. And now you just feel like you're getting screwed over, right? That's a complete different perspective than knowing like, oh, if I do this, this and this, I'm gonna be good and I might be missing out on this additional stream of income at the moment, but I'm gonna get income from here, here, here. I'm gonna be good regardless, but ultimately I do know I want to retain ownership of my masters. So I'm gonna put myself in the position to do a buyback. Which is something that companies do all the time by the way, right? Yeah, yeah. You issue stock and then you do buybacks of stock. So I think, of course, I'm all for artists having ownership, but I think that's the starter conversation, right? And now that we've had that started conversation again and again and again and again, I think we need to have a more complex business conversation and talk about deeper strategy because we're doing it as a service. Like many of these people who say all this, like you need to own, you need to own, you need to own, and I have your masters, all that shit. Some of them are just using the propaganda to make themselves like look good and they don't actually move like that. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, we know this, the marketing message that's working right now. So we gon' tell everybody y'all need to own your masters, but are we really gon' educate you to get yourself out of your position where you understand the game from a full scope of things? Like that's my, I mean, that's my gripe with some of these people in government. They had like, you care about you. It was like, all right, bro, we need more than book bags. Give us, you know, like give us the actual education. Yeah, the books, give us some books. Give us the resources and the proper teaching support and all these other things. So now we can continuously economically support ourselves versus you having to buy us a fucking turkey every year. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's what I feel like they're doing with artists right now. It's like, we gon' give y'all motherfucking turkey. We gon' give y'all a book bag and make it seem like some sauce. Yeah, own your masters or whatever. But beyond that, how do I truly think about this comprehensively as a business person? That's not out there. Now, all that being said, there's an artist out there. He don't really care about his master's ownership. All right? At least not for some of his work you talk about, you know, you talked about that a little bit, Jacory. How some people have that strategy, but this situation I say is a little bit different. All right? Because Bow Wow says owning your master's doesn't matter when you're a touring artist. Do you own your master's? Nah, I don't look like, for me, I don't really, like people, I just had one of my partners ask me about that. You see everybody selling their master's. Everybody selling their master's and it's down to third. For me, it's like, I don't really give two fucks about the master's, really. Because for me, number one, coming up, JD did majority of the writing anyway. Right. You know what I'm saying? So early on, I really wouldn't even write and shit. You know, I didn't start really writing until probably like my second album, because I had to learn how to write. Like a lot of cats can rap, but they don't know how to formulate that into bars and this is the hook or, you know, people got their own little method. So for me, I kind of caught on late to it. You know what I'm saying? But they never, I really wasn't sure because if you were a touring artist, I mean, although you never want to leave that paper out there, eventually that's something you can sit on and they'll come to you later on in life. But for me, I'm a right now type of nigga, like, I'll tour. All right. Some loaded statements. First of all, shout out to JD, bruh. Jermaine Dupri is so underappreciated, bruh. Because, you know, the South don't scream as loud as some of these other coasts. You know what I mean? We love y'all all, but the South don't be screaming in the same way. You know, we don't have the, as, you know, the tycoon execs in the same way. But the shit that you by all said, when I understand a little bit, I wouldn't write in this thing. I'm just a performing artist. That's basically what he said. I'm performing this shit. Goes back to that knowing the value of the person on the other side of the table thing, right? Like he's like, this person giving me the hits. Fuck it. You know what I'm saying? Like take what you want. You giving me the hits, right? So how can you be like, I actually appreciate that perspective of, like you said, knowing the value, not getting so ego driven. I should own all this just because I'm the one who performed it and they coming for me. Yeah. All right. So that part I can appreciate. And I hope y'all get that detail. The part that I didn't like was the end. We just like, I want the right now type of niggas. Yeah. That's the part that made it seem like, damn, you just short sighted. Yeah. It sounds like that's when it started to get rocky. Like, oh man, sounds like he's been finessed and he doesn't know it hasn't clicked yet. Oh man. Yeah, that part right there. Okay. Be more than right now. But one, the money you can make and do well with from touring is significant. Two, yes, if you actually monetize a celebrity brand, it is a real thing that you can do. You have that attention. How do you monetize it? So there are other streams. So it's not like you have to be broke just because you don't own your music income. Yeah. You're looking at someone like Bawa, but he's flipping into acting gigs and all that other thing. So he's probably looking at it like, man, like, yeah, I didn't make any money off music, but music was the catalyst for all this other shit that came from me. So I'm cool with it. I'm happy not getting my bag over there. Like I, Exactly. You guys think I should be. That's a real strategy. Again, talk about thinking about different things. It's no different. It's a more invested and committed way to do it. But on a small scale, that's like having a song that you don't necessarily like connect with and then build your career after you get the attention from that song or even smaller scale, having a video that's a little viral and that's not necessarily your music, but then using that attention and flipping it into the music career. So like the strategy is a strategy. There's so many examples of people doing one thing and then flipping it to another thing, no matter like what industry. But yeah. Only the, not only your master's based off of the principles we said, not with the energy he said. I don't like that shit. Right. It was a little bit too loose. It wasn't like, oh man, you don't care about master's by understanding why in most people's cases they probably should or it was just like. That's that child actor money, bro. Like I said, how you thinking different, man? How you moving in the world a little bit more loose. It's a different world where you come from, boy. And then plus Uber, I'm just, I just believe that all the artists from that era are just like still in the matrix, man. They all just realized they were finesse for decades. You know what I'm saying? So I think we gotta give them time. All right, the video went out for a second, but we are back. Jacory had one more point he wanted to make about this Bow Wow situation. And then we got some pretty strong topics that though at y'all in terms of the culture and how artists brands should be perceived. Yeah, man. So I was thinking about the part where Bow Wow was like, you know, I'm a touring act, right? I tour. And, you know, we all know that's not, the touring isn't the saving grace that it used to be. But I can understand his mentality, right? Why do I care about the money I'm making from the recorded music when there are all these other things that recorded music has afforded me to make money off of? And I thought about like, what's the equivalent of that today for newer artists, right? What will make them feel like, fuck this music shit, I'm getting this bag, right? And to me, it's the brand deals, right? Why am I gonna, why do I care if I made 15K off this music when this music helped me get a 100K Sprite bag? Or helped me get a half million dollar target bag, or, you know, I mean, the interview will be about time where this comes out. But like the garage interview where he talked about flipping music into syncs and shit, right? So I was like, hey, I just need it out there. And I know this label, this entity is gonna give me the resources to create something around me big enough to get it out there that I can flip these other five or six different looks. I can get where he's coming from, you know? I can understand the artist that views it that way. Him, I still don't know. Like it still sounds like he just, he just got pulled out the matrix a little bit. He didn't really, he didn't really realize it all the way yet that he back in real life. But the sentiment right now, I don't care about music because I have touring after that today. I don't really care about music as much because I have content streams. I have brand deals. I can understand where he coming from. Yeah. That's probably how like speed feels, you know what I'm saying? No, that's the fact. Yeah, you got those people in the bags, not even where, anywhere near as close. Yeah, I'm gonna do this music. Y'all do what y'all want to. It's kind of like just marketing for everything else. Exactly. It's a lifestyle thing. And I thought about it too, the speed and cost of that drop this song together. And I was like, this is such a terrible song and it's doing such crazy numbers. And I was just so confused. And I was like, well, you know what their audience like, their audience thinks it's cool. They pet attention to rappers. It's a bigger brand for them. Man, I'm gonna take this terrible music video and go flip it into a, I don't know, a bang deal or something like that, you know? I get, I peep the game, bro. I be seeing the strategy, man, you know? Niggas, every time these influencers hit a million views, it's a new brand deal. And now it's like a week or two a week later, you know, that's the flow. So I get it. I get it. Yeah, yeah. Man, I feel like there's a deeper conversation that we need to have about how much money you can expect for real, for real, to make from your music directly. I mean, we've kind of had that before. Where it's like really, even if you own all of it and you're making the, you know, you're getting income from streaming and all that stuff, really the money may still gonna be from other stuff. Even if you own most of your masters. And a lot of these cases from what I've been seeing from artists that are pretty successful, pretty independent, that I know. It's like, all right, yeah. This money from streaming is either just like to pay some bills, all right? And at most it's to reinvest and to then still be able to make money from everything else. So you're still breaking even. I don't really know anybody who's like killing it, killing it. Personally, that's like told me it like, yo, that streaming bag, right? Is a crazy bag. And like I'm good, right? It's usually, even if it's a crazy streaming bag, but the career is so big, it doesn't really maintain like that person's lifestyle and all the other things they need to do to continue to fund and grow that particular business around the artist itself. You know what I mean? So a meal per year might be great for an artist at ground zero. Like who is thinking like, oh yeah, a meal per year from streaming. I can live off of a meal. But usually that artist who's making a meal per year from that is like, I want to do like other shit. In most cases, there might be one or two other artists where it's like, all right. I mean, even those artists have bigger aspirations and they're just like, I'm gonna make money from this music and let these streams run up and then I'm gonna just go do some other shit and leave. Go start a cement business or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's nobody that I know who's like, yeah, let's just main, I'm doing 500K in streams every month and I'm just gonna maintain this 500K in streams every month and successfully doing that. And now I'm living in like a consistent life off of that. Or 500K a year even. Like that, I don't know. It might not be a thing. We try to promote it like it'll be Indian. I'm not saying it don't be Indian. We try to promote it as if it's easier than it is or you're making more money than you would think in these cases. Really, I feel like based on what I've seen so far, you're only making the money to put into other things and reinvest in the business. Now that's off of streaming income. Your master's is different than the streaming income. That's gonna create all kinds of other opportunities that you came to see down the line. And back to Kevin Lyle's statement, not owning it just to own it. What I do think is a thing is, you can own it and then not know how to monetize your master's. Cause again, we're not just talking about, oh yeah, cause somebody streams your shit. The biggest opportunities, especially if you get yourself in a certain position for your master's is not just gonna be streaming some more songs. I mean, it's gonna be whatever that might look like, whether that's sync or just new platforms and avenues. There's so many things that your master's can be monetized from, which we need to do episode. Cause I don't think I'm fully aware of every way master's can be monetized or strategically how someone who owns a master's and really does that, how they look at it. I feel like an episode is gonna need some, some detailed research. Nah, need some detail looking for somebody who can talk about it. That sounds like a PBS special, man. Hey, y'all go ahead and donate $5 so we can pay somebody to create. Hit that super subscribe button, whatever it's called. Super chat button. Hit that button, go ahead and give us a little donation and we'll pay and create an entire mini doc on what you should do with your master's and hire the right people and everything. And when you should give them up, let it go when that's fine. But all right, let's get into this next topic. And the video no longer has sound, so we can't play the clip. But what this clip is or what this content is really, let's start with this subject. Can people fall off? And if so, what does it really mean to fall off? In the clip, DC on Fly was a comedian, artist, dancer, all of those things extraordinary. Modern day Renaissance. Modern day Renaissance, man. He's the hood, Sammy Davis. He's the hood, that's the Sammy Davis Junior. Sammy Davis Junior. He's the hood, Jamie Foxx, you know what I mean? Now, he basically says, hey, bro, this fallin' off shit is bullshit. I have been in front of people's lives, been out here in the streets, like coming to the media kind of blew up for like 10 years now. It's crazy. All right, five more years from now, when I'm like, I think he's gonna be like mid-30s or whatever. I don't wanna be in front of y'all, all right? I got kids, I got a life. I'm trying to become the behind the scene businessman. And what he was alluding to is something that I agree with, which is, yo, man, a lot of this fallin' off shit is just perception. And a lot of this perception, of course, is based on what the media has going on. So if you just don't see me no more, I fell off. That's what most people are really just defining it by. But I realized early on, I will be watching TMZ to show. And I'll be seeing like some old, like, I don't know, actor or something. And they'll be in some fancy store on Rodeo Drive and actor, actors look like they doin' good in life. And I was like, dang, bro, like, and I'll ask my dad or grandma about him. And I'm like, I haven't ever seen this person, anything. They're like, oh yeah, this person was big back in like 1980. Should be the man. Yeah. And I'm like, well, dang, I ain't seen them in anything. I don't even look like they did anything in my lifetime in terms of acting and acting, like any kind of acting gigs and shit. But they still at this expensive ass store, you know what I mean? And it's well to do environment. So how are you judging Bob falling off? Because if my lifestyle hasn't fell off, what do I really care about all this other shit? Pashon, you know, it's not that simple, man. It's about what we as the people can see and put our fingers on. And when's the last time I seen you at a college in the birthday party, bro? You know what I'm saying? None of those things have happened recently. Then who cares? That's just still financially stable and probably doing better than 99% of the rest of the population. Who cares about that? See, that's a damn shame though. You just actually hit that shit on the head. The college industry, you know what you just remind or made me realize? You can't, like personally, you can't follow these niggas idea of your life falling off or not because they really don't know when you're on. That's true. Like niggas will think, oh yeah, the college general birthday party or he at this event or he standing next to that person, he on, you be broke as fuck. And then you disappear, they think you fell off and you be good. So dictating your life by anything, based on what the public thinks you probably gonna be messed up anyway. Like, so how can we care about the perception of being a fall off when you really didn't know when I got on? Where in this line, you might've saw a lot of events and eventually somewhere in that event and the current period of time I did get on, but you don't know when it actually happened. And I was just finessing your ass until I finally got on. Making this shit look good. Hey, making this shit shake. That's why they need entertainers to put their taxes off, man. I believe that. So I can be like, damn, bro, he was only making 60K a year when this movie was top of the charts. You know what I'm saying? I want to see that, man. I want to see that information lined up. Like I think Chris Tucker said he got like 5K off of Friday. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Hit movie. That was a cold hit at first, right? Cold hit. But again, perception. Like if you're a super fan of Friday, like early on in that era, you're just seeing this and it's big in your community. You think this and they get on, right? Even before it hits pop. So that's a whole another thing, like whether they should have been made more or harder because you didn't know that was going to take off necessarily, right? But yeah, to you, you're like, oh, this person's on. You making these assumptions and with those assumptions that they're on, there's a certain amount of money that you like associate with that. This is crazy about art, bro. That's actually what is crazy about being an art, bro. The moment there are a lot of people that know about it, the people assume there's a lot of value there. It's just, it's so funny to think about that. You know what I'm saying? It's like, cause it's like, there could be a picture on a wall and one person is looking at a picture and we're all like, oh, that picture is worth nothing. But if you walk mine, a hundred people are staying at the picture. You'll assume the picture is worth a lot. You know what I'm saying? It's crazy, it's crazy how that works when you really break that shit down. Cause it's all just us feeding off each other. He's looking at this shit. Shit must be worth something, you know what I'm saying? Let me see what's up with this. Like even that was the point, like DC on flowers making where I did. Like we view just falling off as like lack of mainstream attention, right? But then to your point, like you said, like what if I'm better off financially? What if I never cared about mainstream attention? Right? Like there are artists who are, if we keep it in music, who were shocked to the top of that shit there, like, you know, you can tell they really care about that. Now I think about someone like a Malcolm Moore, right? Yeah. Can I say that Malcolm Moore is no longer as popular as he was in what was that? 2016, 2017? Yeah, a hundred percent. Can I say that Malcolm Moore is falling off? No, right? You know what I'm saying? Cause last I checked, he still streams very well. You know what I'm saying? He's still making money. And like, there are lots of artists who come and go in that. And I think what's interesting is that the- This is an underrated indie story. Telling Malcolm Moore's indie story? We need to interview Malcolm Moore or something. Hmm, I mean. Heal the fuck with Malcolm Moore? No, I mean, no. I ain't got nothing to do with Malcolm Moore. I want to know the details, man. I'm a huge fan of his music, but I want to understand, I want to hear the details. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, you're right. The story will be interesting, man. Yeah, the story will be interesting, man. I'll be forgetting people be watching this, man. I can't, you know, can't be speaking about it. You're like, I'll be watching this for you. It's okay, bro. I get a random DM every like, damn, you watched this? It's crazy. If you don't fuck with your boy, bro, you don't fuck with him, you know what I mean? I'm cool, you know, Malcolm Moore, you know? If you out there listening to this, man, like, keep doing your thing, you know what I'm saying? Like, keep it going, man. You're an inspiration to somebody, not me. Somebody. But, but like, I think the perception of falling off doesn't hold as much weight as it used to be, right? Cause being saying somebody fell off in like the 2000s, something like that was detrimental because there was no way for us the public to verify. Now I can be like, damn, what happened to such and such? Oh, that dude fell off. What? Go look at his Instagram. I don't know, man. He just posted a picture 30 minutes ago, and that should have got a million likes. Go to Spotify. I don't know, man. He's still got eight million monthly listens. Well, I can do all this research pretty quickly to like verify, like, man, somebody fucking with them, even if it's not me, right? Versus like back then it was just kind of like, oh, what happened to such and such? Damn, I think I just fell off. Oh, damn. Gone about your day, you know what I'm saying? Another way to really, really case it out and see what happened to him and out. So I think that there are artists that we are getting to see enough artists who don't always live underneath the mainstream sun to show us that, hey, being under the mainstream light doesn't necessarily mean that I'm on, right? To your point, we've seen lots of celebrities and big artists in the limelight that have come out with, we learned just the craziest personal life shit was going on, right? That was down bad in a certain ways. And then vice versa, right? We've seen artists that was like, we be like, damn, I ain't seen you in years. And they pop back out and they doing better than the last time that we saw them. You know what I'm saying? Like, damn, bro, you know, I don't drugs no more. It's a little clean, you know what I'm saying? Like your house looked nice from this Instagram Live, you know, it's like a cool place that you went. Like you would never, you know, much better, more solid place. So I think like just that perception of falling off is going to have to change at some point. It can't, it's not going to be the same insult it once was if we keep hanging on by the same standards. If people want the, you fell off the insult to still hit, we got to change the metric of where falling off means, you know what I'm saying? We got to. Yeah, because in most cases, it really means that niggas who didn't care about you in the first place, aren't seeing you anymore. Yeah. It's like, you got your core fan base, you get that before you hit mainstream. Once you get the mainstream, that's when you start getting people's faces who don't really care about you, but they see you so you become a brand that has that extra equity. But you disappear from the mainstream. So I'm like, oh yeah, I'm not checking for you anyway. I only kept you in mind cause you were in front of me. Yeah, I have a choice. Yeah, I have a choice. You kept saturating my damn purview. Now you only got your super fans and people who care about you in the first place, which is that's really what most of these artists are trying to get to. Yeah. Like, you know, they don't really care about, I don't know, the mainstream, I guess. You know, and especially today's mainstream. Yeah, and I was gonna say that usually the ones, or you can say like, actually truly fell off, right? The ones that kind of chased mainstream but didn't have either the work ethic or the music of the brand to stay there, right? That's right. It's a personal thing. Yeah. Like, oh, don't try to finesse it and act like you didn't care about this shit right now. You fell off by your personal goal standard. You was the one saying you wanted Grammys and billboards and top 10 hits every other week, you know what I'm saying? So it'll be that, right? Like they'll kind of fall off based on like just their own goals or to your other point, they didn't do the work to build a core fan base on well. Cause all right, now don't get me wrong. I have truly seen some artists fall off. Don't get me wrong. Slim Jesus. He never like fully got on for me. So I don't, you know what I mean? I can't, I can't speak on that. Let me look up something real quick if I say the next one. All right, why are you saying that? I'll say that makes me think about recently, Giannis and the Milwaukee Bucks got booted out of the playoffs, right? Bruh was like, yo, like, cause he got asked by the reporter was this season of failure and then he was like, why would you ask me that? You asked me the same shit last year. No, this season wasn't a failure. I'm sorry. Yeah, the whole thing based off of, it's like, nah, you have these failures along the way, these moments along the way, but you're building something greater. Michael Jordan didn't win every year, LeBron didn't win it every year. So every year they went out championship. That wasn't a failure. Yeah. Like in some ways, shit, bro. Like if it was your goal to win a championship, you didn't win a championship, bro. That was a failure. But I can see you saying the entire season wasn't a failure because it's something we're going to learn from and use as a building block. But in a micro, bro, y'all are the favorite to win a championship. You wanted to win a championship. You got booted out of the first round as one of the best players in the world. Anyone even close, y'all lost four to one versus like three, three, you know, four to three. So yeah, nigga, y'all failed. However, it's not the ultimate failure. That's what I think, you know, I know he was trying to come from, but I can't, people done embedded this like, you're not a loser mentality and everything else in the world. I can't let people get to my sports, bro. Like I love the ability to cleanly lose and win, man. It's cool. We got to have that culture somewhere. I can't take these blurry lines. Bro, like, that should be bugging me, bro. Am I good? Am I not good? Am I great? Am I not great? They be caring about a nigga's stats and shit. Like, bro, this nigga didn't win a championship, bro. Like, okay. Everybody, you know, there's always an argument. Like, oh, he could. Nah, bro. We here to win. We not here to get better stats in the other league. But anyway, I digress. I imagine you found the data that you were looking for. Nah, I was about to unfairly sell artist fellow, but my servers are terrible here. Who was the artist that you know from? I don't want to say it. No, bro. You got to put it out there so then we can discuss how it might have been that you incorrectly thought this artist fellow. Nah, I was going to say because I just know I'm wrong. But I was going to say Matt Ox and Blackboy JB. But I know, but I just feel like, but like I said, once again, people listening to my phone does not currently have servers. We on Sean's basement. Oh, that's, that's okay. No. Oh, yeah. A lot of time. We say Matt Ox. Yeah. So I want to see which our perception would be of Matt Ox falling off. Okay. 8.56. Yeah. He has 856,000 monthly listeners. So you would consider just if we're going off the Spotify stream alone. Because of course we talked about how the other parts of life might not have fell off. Would you consider that a fall off? No, I wouldn't. Okay. But as I said, man, I was going to, I ain't going to throw them out there because I can't look the numbers up. I've played Blackboy probably at least two million. Oh, wait, that's the wrong page. I was like, damn, that's a hard fall. But like, you ain't got a Spotify account no more. Bro, how did I spell it wrong? Oh, you put a K. It's just two C's. That's what I thought I did. Oh, you got a K on top. But then the page right here. Oh, there you go. Oh, it's only one. Okay, that's what it is. Yeah, 3.2 million. So he hasn't fallen off either, clearly. Now, why you thought these niggas fell off, bro? It worked. What lack of information have you received that might have allowed you to receive that they could have fell off? See what I was about to say is gonna prove your point. But I'm just gonna leave it because this is what I had to say. I was about to say the only time I ever hear about Blackboy JB is usually around his personal opinion around things and not music. But then I know the argument could be like, well, if we care so much about his personal opinion on things, can't you make the argument that he hasn't fallen off? Because we don't care about the opinions of people that have fallen off. Which is a fair critique I hear from everybody. You know what I'm saying? That makes that. And I was gonna say the same thing for Matt Ox, but then what was about to make me change my mind is there's a very reputable publication YouTube channel that I follow that talks about rising underground rappers and people in that world. And I just did an interview with him. The interview went really good. You know what I'm saying? The feedback on it was great. People was talking about it. So that I can't even say, you know what I'm saying? He fell off because of going back to your point, his core audience, that core demographic over there still cares about it. He still cares about it, man. Yeah, I wouldn't have thought of either those Yeah, I know we had to use me as a live example for you know. But it's perfect though, it's like, cause we all are, we might not use that word fall off cause you might not be the person who wants to like throw that out there. But even like in your mind, personally, you might think like, what happened to that person? I haven't seen him in a minute. And they could be, you know what I'm moving and shaking doing just fine. Matt, I actually would have, weirdly enough, would have probably expected Matt thought that less about Matt than I would have about Blackboy JB. Okay, he came up in a niche in the group. Right, exactly. Cause he was already strong niche and a niche and you know, had a specific group that wasn't necessarily commercial. Street tends to like get kind of really fast. You're commercial and successful. Well, at least commercial street, right? And or you're not really winning at all. So, but yeah, which I didn't buy, I still didn't think Blackboy JB fall off. But like, that's a harder one to sustain in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, he is living off hits too, bro. I think he got a good like, and that's the other thing too, bro, about the ball thing is like, you can get a good string of hits before you do decline. You good. You set, you set. He is living, man. Saw that matter, man. We living good another day above ground. Last month saw that man. He's trying to convince us that the Xbox is better than the PlayStation, you know what I'm saying? I just, I couldn't get with that. That was the thing for a minute though. There was a period of time where most people did think Xbox was better than PlayStation. Like we're talking about maybe like the mid 2000s. Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. That's a period of time. When Microsoft was on their whole Support America propaganda campaign, your Bob game, American, whatever the fuck, you know what I'm saying? There was a knob, bro. The Japanese got to figure it out, man. Like, he went to these controllers and there's haptic feedback, man. I mean. Oh, man. I pull it up with a designer right here because I know a lot of people feel he fell off but he's getting 5.2, well, 5.5 million more people listeners but people still care about his music. Now, again, even if music is like about your primary songs, your top song, is that something that we want to look into deeper when it comes into a fall off conversation? Like this is just us investigating and musing through where you could. Finding a way that you can't claim somebody fell off successfully. Well, this is a true haters conversation. That's not just about the same, bro. It's like, how can I effectively say that he is fell off? Well, if I was going to play Devil's Advocate. Uh-huh. I think I got a way. So, what were you gonna say? If I was going to play Devil's Advocate, I would say that recent music isn't where it's kept in the top. All the block boy JB's biggest hits was from like four or five years ago. And then who just showed designer? Design is the same thing. All the songs on his top that's holding that from like three or four years ago. And they're all massive songs so it makes sense that two to three million people a month was still listening to these songs, you know what I'm saying? So, if I was going for the hating narrative, that's what I would say, you know? It's like your recent stuff ain't really hitting like your old stuff. Yeah, man. That would be considered fall off. That's the greatest argument. Yeah. We're saying fall off. I think it's the argument most people will lean on. Hey, I don't see you a lot and your new music ain't hitting. And we don't care about it as much. It's really a we don't care though. Because there'll be plenty of people who they might not get that perception. The music could be even better. That's true. That's the weird part about it. It's such a media attention and crowd perception thing when it comes to art forms, period. And you know, that might suck for many artists to hear, but it's like on the capturing value from a business standpoint it's all based on other people thinking it's good even though this core of art is not supposed to be about other people thinking it's good necessarily. Yeah, that's what I said. That's what's so crazy about it, bro. Like people can literally change the value of your art in the drop of a dime, bro. Like we see it with viral moments and, you know, in council campaigns, bro. Just the entire value can be changed like this. You know what I'm saying? Just like that. Shit is crazy. Shit is crazy. You know, even Drake once said, you know, they tried to tell me I felt like, ooh, I needed that. You know what I'm saying? So... So you use that language, you know, if you're listening to this B.W.J.B., Max, Malcolm Moore, because I fuck with all three of them personally. I was listening to B.W.J.B. the other day. You know what I'm saying? Use it as motivation. Yeah. Ooh, I needed that. That shit's still so funny. They're trying to tell me I felt like, ooh, I needed that. Oh, no, he said, I had someone tell me. I felt like, ooh, I needed that. Yeah, okay. This is a funny ass part of me. It's very Drake. It doesn't matter if you've been on the boat. Like, I'm like, man, you know, I fuck with you, bro. But you kind of feel like, oh, thank you. I needed that. It's the spark I needed. Hey, I'm looking for motivation. The ooh, it's the ooh, I think. Going back to the studio right now. Yeah, Bar. Being a brand owner today feels like being a SoundCloud rapper in 2016. Everybody's starting a clothing brand, that's a bar. Everybody's starting a clothing brand. And they don't want to do the work to make it a valuable clothing brand, to make it an interesting clothing brand. And this is not a conversation I'm presenting. Shout out to undiscovered.ig. Now they like cover a lot of brands. Like that's their thing, the music, not the music space, it's a fashion space, right? So I can see them feeling that way. Cause you're like, dang, I just see all these other people creating brands. And like this is our space. Just like artists feel like, yo, I see all these influencers and people making music and they don't really like put into work to make it quality music. You're like, oh yeah, y'all just starting clothing brands cause it sounds cool or whatever. But here's, but to me, one, a lot of artists were just starting merch, right? And there are very few who are starting like legit clothing brands. Now there's probably, I see a lot of artists really still having merch. And they're calling it a clothing brand, but it's just merch. Yeah, it's a popular thing. Yeah, exactly. It's popular. It sounds more entrepreneurial to own something, right? It's like having my CEO in my business car, even though I don't got no business, right? It's the same type of shit. So I feel it. Yeah. I mean, I really didn't, the SoundCloud rapper comparison, I don't necessarily fuck with. Cause I didn't really ever see a time where I don't know, it was like cool to be a SoundCloud rapper. What? Nah, I didn't. Between 15 to 17 or 16 to early 18, bro. That's different though. Like what, cause what I mean by that is, there were a lot of rappers on SoundCloud and there was the media like on the outside branding it that way. But it wasn't like niggas being like, yo, I'm about to become a SoundCloud rapper. You know what I'm saying? Hey, I'm starting a brand is a cool thing. Not, hey, I'm about to be a SoundCloud rapper. Well, I see the argument I would make is for that time period, the term was I'm about to start a collective. Collective was the cool thing to start in music at that time. Yes. That's what I'm saying. That's a better, that's a better connection than being a SoundCloud rapper. But hey, they wanted to use Playboy Cardi's face and getting a little cloud and post all of it. I respect it. The idea in fact though is true. There's a lot of people starting the brands and start wanting to be CEO of their business and all these things without necessarily understanding what that comes with. I want ownership of everything. I want to have this type of brand. I want to be a producer and say I do all of that and I mix it without actually becoming good at it. All this stuff is cool. End of the day, bro, run your damn race, man. Like everybody's not the full damn Megazord. Somebody else got to be the arm, the leg or whatever. Find your bag, stay in that bag and there's plenty of people like making plenty of money in better positions of control. You know what I mean? Then a lot of these people who own 100% of everything. You got people who are second, third, fifth at some of these startups, you know what I'm saying? Like not a CEO, not an exact, not a board member and they got hella money and they live in a better lifestyle than some of these people who like, I got to own everything and I want credit for everything, da, da, da. So it's like, what do you want? If it's an ego thing and you're like, yeah, I need this. So people like, I want to feel like I'm respected or I control everything. Cool, cause that's your quality of life, right? Some people can't, I can't just live great, bro. I need niggas to know that I'm great. If that's your thing, bro, then that's your thing, right? Or I can't be successful on a team. I don't care that I'll be five times richer on this team like, nigga, I want to know that I did every little bit of it DIY and that's going to make me feel better because I'm too insecure to have success that also involves other people. Niggas do that shit. Like that's your own thing. That's your prerogative. However, it is possible if we're just thinking about getting to a goal to get to these, like to start a brand or and have somebody else run that brand completely or to not start a brand, just do your immersion cap somewhere else. That's just the only thing that I think about with like, I guess I got a little bit off from there. Take a little bit. So I'll let you choose whatever the fuck I said, like as a point to respond to. I know I threw a lot out there. I don't even know how to follow up to that. It was so many different points from trying to trying to brain them all back in. I mean, I got, I get what he's coming from, like with the SoundCloud rap thing, right? It was like, at that time it was cool and it was cheap to hop in and say, you're a SoundCloud rap. To the point about the clothing brand is it's easier to date a clothing brand than any time, right? You can sign your designer on Fiverr for 50 bucks. You go to Alibaba. You can have this shit printed and designed before you even spend a dime of money, you know what I'm saying? So I get it, you know what I'm saying? I get what the thing is coming from. And plus, you know, bro, like when you're like younger coming up, like doing, having a creative job is like what's cool, right? You know, that whole like 18 is like 27 window, bro. If you're not, you don't have a creative job. Lane, you know what I'm saying? Especially if you, especially if you in a place like, nah, nah, I'm not saying that, you know what I'm saying? But that's the, I think that's the perception, right? Especially if you're in someone like in Atlanta or New York or Miami or LA, bro. If you're not doing something creative at any point, you feel, you feel off, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. You feel out of place. Not one of the cool kids. Yeah. So it's like, you know, there are a lot of creative endeavors that take a lot of talent. And because of that, that take a lot of time to get good at. And unfortunately, there are some that aren't like that. And I think that sounds like a wrap. And clothing brands in 2023 are two of them. You don't have to be an amazing clothing designer to start a clothing brand. You can have like one or two good T-shirt ideas and have, and I've seen brands kick off their whole brand off of one or two good T-shirt ideas, right? That's the time that we live in, right? It's the equivalent of having one hit. Exactly. I was about to say the same as like a rapper. You know, you can drop 20 shitty songs if number 19 go, should you up? You got a brand, you in the game, right? So I'm sure that, you know, to that point, there are a lot of marketing things and just even mentality shifts that happen probably from clothing brands watching the way music and entertainers move, right? We could do the same shit, especially once we got closer to modern times and the brands of these clothing designers start to become more influential, right? We're paying attention to the Virgilah Blows and the Jerry Lorenzo's and the Dapper Dan's and shit, right? So that's a part of it. Who we make the influencers influences the culture. The whole thing, yeah. Yeah, what everybody else tries to start. And we have made clothing designers more poppin than they used to be among the specific culture that we know that we're talking about, like the more street, hip hop, popular space, those people are way more cool. And at the forefront, then it was back in the day. Yeah, and you got to think too, but we're also the generation that grew up on H&M, Urban, Outfit, Sheen, you know what I'm saying? Fashion Nova, like these fast fashion clothing brands, right? They became popular for us. Yeah. I mean, if you watch a company, like I watched Fashion Nova build from the ground up, you know what I'm saying? Just a year later learning about that whole supply process and where they get their clothes from and shit like that. And so I was like, when you learn like, man, like there's these entities that aren't putting like a crazy amount of labor into getting better at the creative aspect, but they're building the business and selling these items to these people. I get it. I completely understand. Like I said, if I'm just looking at like, man, I can just make a, I can go download Weebly right now and make a little one page shit, I can go down a little Shopify, make a little one page site. I can get my material source from China through Alibaba and not even just the materials, the whole product, the shirt, the hoodie, the hat designs. And I just set this shit up, post some cool pictures on Instagram, run some ads and I can start making money, not seeing this how easy it is, but that's the way that a lot of the fast fashion designers from the last three to five years of made it look, you know what I'm saying? So if you're thinking about people growing up watching that, I get it. It was the same thing with the SoundCloud epidemic, all we kept saying motherfuckers like X and Lil Pump and shit blow up and we're looking like, man, they're shooting low quality videos and recording their music and a mic in their closet and putting on like, I mean, they're doing it for cheap and easy, I could do, it's the exact same shit. So I get it, you know, I get it. Yeah, speaking of, you know, every Negro on the sign starting to brand, these two Negroes right here are gonna be dropping Mert very soon. We're gonna officially talk about it next episode though, because we had to end it this way. I'm Brian Manchin. I'm Kori. And we out. Peace.