 We're continuing our partnership with the Ayn Rand Institute and joining me in studio this week or two of their top Objectivist thinkers Gina Gorlin and you're on Brooke welcome to the Rubin report. It's great to be back. You are a top Objectivist thinker you But you officially are now a top objective official. Yeah, well Davis and I Don't know that I'm the one that makes the annoying. I think you do the anointing here something like that Something like that. All right. There's a ton. I want to talk to you guys about and as you both know and I think as most of The audience know this is just one in a series of these type of conversations that we're having I thought what would be interesting for this is that if we started talking about careers a little bit because people have heard Me talk about this you were instrumental in my career change and success because We were doing our first ever sit down. We had never met before I was on order TV. This is about It's three and a half years ago or so now this seems like another lifetime ago And I was realizing that I wanted to take the show in a slightly different direction at the rather than the network I was at and that I wanted to own my own Independent production company all the things that I have now and I sat with you for an hour and you talked about rational self-interest and and several other Objectivist ideals and I quite literally ended that interview walked into the green room said to my director and my That my producer that I said I'm leaving. I hope you guys will join me We quit our jobs. We left our salaries health insurance the whole thing and and we went independent and I'm happy to report It has all worked out So when I talk about these ideas, these are not just ideas to me. These are these are concrete things That's the most I've ever talked at the top of a show. You're on take it away No, I think I that's inspiring and I'm glad I had that kind of impact and it I'm glad it didn't go the other way You know lawsuits and all you would not be here But no look the fact is that what we choose to do in our career what we choose to do As as work right is so crucial the fact is I mean, I know how hard you work You know a little bit about my travel schedule. No, I You know we spend most of our lives at work We spend most of our lives pursuing our career and it's so Important that people choose something they love they do something they enjoy Selfishly enjoy they do it for their own benefit. So money's important, right? You can't discount money, but sometimes it's worth taking that big risk and and risking all that money and risking The the safety of health insurance and all that to pursue something you really love and to pursue something that you can control you know Jordan Peterson talks a lot about finding meaning and And I ran one of the cardinal one of the cardinal values to pursue in life is purpose And I think meaning and purpose are very similar in terms of content And at the end of the day where we find our meaning and where we find our purpose for most of us is in the career We choose or that's a good life when we have it in our career because we're gonna spend so much of our energy So much of our focus so much of our thinking and so much of our life You know make sure that you really love it make sure that you really enjoy it Yeah, and yet so many people don't so why do you think at the psychological level so many people don't take that Issue seriously enough to go. It's not that I should just have a job. It's that I really should do something that I love Yeah, so the kind of fervor and idealism with which you're on just spoke of the Sacred importance of finding a job you love. I don't think that exists in our culture I don't think people are given the kind of guidance and the kind of inspiration as they're growing up as they go to school that would power them through the inevitable challenges involved in Actually taking the risks. I mean what I love that story that is such a great example It's like life imitating art, you know where that had to have been a really scary and yeah Uncertainty fraught the night before but it's more than that right because you throughout your life in some way And I don't want to make the show all about you But so at your life have an essence done that right because you you took a very unconventional route to go into comedy and to Go and you've you've been a risk-taker through out and I think so many people are conditioned to To just fit in to do what's expected to do what the family has done And we're not taught when we're young to be independent thinkers to be to be independently motivated And that's that is what it means to be good You know that all of the focus that you know the character values that we see up on the wall at school and The praise that we get you know, sometimes we get praised for good grades or for productivity It's been earlier on but as we start to grow up It's like that's de-emphasized and what's emphasized in terms of how you earn the stature of you know This is a good person. This is a person we can look up to yeah is by doing things unrelated to your own passionate career path yeah, and the fact is you have to sustain so much motivation and you have to Go against so many grains in order to actually design a career that is really personal to you and That brings the kinds of rewards that were really make life worth living right and it seems to me that there's also a Secondary benefit which is that the rewards will keep coming so even just in the last few months and not to make this about me But there's an interesting piece of this which is in the last couple months I decided to leave patreon and the night before we officially left I thought man did I just screw this whole thing up again Which was the exact feeling I had years ago, and we actually didn't we're thriving again So it sort of feeds on a reward system if you if you do things that are a little risky that you're passionate about well One of the beauties of vinevines ethics is that the model is the practical And it turns out that if you follow morality if you do the right thing if you do it rationally thoughtfully It pays off good stuff happens Yeah, so it is in this world I think good stuff happens to good people if you define good people right and It's it's in this life And this is the whole focus on on happiness and success and pursuing your values if you do it right Then you the reward is happiness the reward is success and by and large what's really important about that is it's not that the Reward comes from like people handing out you know praise and patting you on the back You know where it's somebody came up with a set of rules that if you follow them You'll get rewarded the reward comes from reality because the principles are causal principles that actually identify facts about what you need to do if you want to Experience a good life as a human being you know you have to act on principle You have to think long term you have to be honest with yourself right like there Reasons why those things pay off in the world and if you can see that if you can Because what you're talking about is you're learning and this is in therapy. This is the process. I try to enact for my clients I try to help them see what you're seeing every day by making these difficult choices and then seeing the logic play out Yeah, right like of course when I actually take this bold honest risk that both Attracts the people in my audience who are like-minded and who are looking for that inspiration and they're the ones I want watching my show presume, you know and The reason I'm doing that is because I value being able to speak my mind on my own terms and Part of the reason I value that is because it attracts a large right like it's all Then feeds itself. So it's part of the issue that scares people about this is that there's probably young people watching this right now Let's say someone's just out of college and they they can't get the job that they love right now They've got to do some crappy jobs first But that doesn't make them happy in sort of the immediacy perhaps in if they were looking at it the long term They would look back and go. Oh, those are the good old days You can't always not every job is gonna bring you that that rule no and look everything is risky And risky means that some stuff fails and and failure is part of life and failure is something We need to learn how to deal with and I think part of the damage our educational system does is it doesn't teach kids how To deal with failure partially because we've we've outlawed failure, right? Everybody gets a ribbon Yeah, you know, so we so we outlaw failure So you don't learn how to deal with failure and we need to teach people But also educational system doesn't teach kids how to introspect and how to figure out What do I love? What are my values? What do I really want to pursue? So when they get to adults so many so many of them and I was like this I didn't know what I wanted to do in life. I Didn't know what I wanted to study. I didn't you know, but when I did it I did it Well, I learned to like it and I was always looking on the on the lookout for okay What I really enjoy, you know, so I could switch I've had I don't five careers five different things And I think we don't train kids to to be on the lookout to really be able to do that So they they're afraid of failure They're not sure exactly what it is that they really want to do and we haven't taught them to think long-term and to accept the fact that yes All of us went through periods where it was really rough and it was really hard and we didn't do and we didn't enjoy it Yeah, you know, it was a great day one. Yes, and and And that that's part of the glory of it. Yeah, I think part of what makes the even the grunt work and the failure worthwhile and actually Part of the experience of a good life is Knowing what it means to you and knowing why you're doing it like that is actually rewarding Yeah, even when you're in the throes of despair having just you know been rejected for the hundredth time But when you know that this is this experience and my courage in facing it and not flinching and not turning back is part of this mission that I'm on as we've talked about That itself is a tremendous experience. Well, it's funny to me because not to do it again But but this shows The relevance of this I know when when I was a struggling comic and I used to have to hand out tickets in Times Square No matter rain nor sleep nor snow and it was miserable and I have to wear two pairs of socks and two jackets And it was horrible and I did this for years just to get on stage and I remember I hate I love being on stage But I hated everything else But I do view those now as the good old days not because they're better than than today today is definitely better But there's something that the fact that I did that that I was able to actually do that I don't even know where it came from but I but I did but part of what happiness is is is is being challenged and meeting those challenges and attaining your value in spite of the obstacles that You know reality throws at you to get the end reality is going to throw it's enough it's not gonna be easy and That sense of accomplishment is what helps us build that self-esteem That's so necessary for that for the sense of happiness that I think you get once you reach the point where you're really successful and and that building process at the time is Is hard yeah, and it's painful and it's on it's not fun, but looking back on it's like yeah I did that it's the good old days. It's the good old those that was kind of cool And I succeeded in achieving something and look at me today It's a consequence of those actions that I took back there I think part of what makes it possible is Having at least some vision even at the time, you know, I work with people. So there's this phenomenon now Called failure to launch. It's actually it has a name now So these are college kids who graduate move back home don't know what they want to do yet and then They're stuck They're just living in their old room or their parents basement and they're being taken care of and usually at some point They get depressed and anxious because they're not doing anything and then we enter into this conversation of okay But what do you want like what's actually going to move you and like the motor is sort of shut off And what I try to do is find ways to like rev them back up by usually by Offering some kind of vision even if it's gonna fail after a week, you know Find something to do that is both difficult and that you can be proud of and it might just be asking you Girl or boy, you know, or it might be giving a talk at Toastmasters It doesn't yet have to have a clear end game except for the Spiritual end game which is to learn what it's like to struggle and to triumph in a difficult goal Yeah, what about people? Let's move it from just the young people But what about now someone's middle-aged and they don't love what they do and they've got car payments and mortgages And kids and all sorts of responsibilities and they can't or in their mind at least can't take that crazy risk How do you how do you help that person come around to something while they have more? Responsibility and maybe they're not as crazy as the wide-eyed 20-year-old who's willing to you know bust his butt to do anything Well partially I'd say that is a reason why it's so important when you're young To get the attitude right not to get the exact profession or the exact thing that you're gonna do But to get the attitude right so that you can start building towards something and you can be more adaptive as you grow older Because it is it's more objectively more difficult because you've got commitments. You've got payments And I would say people like that You know they've got it. You've got to find something you love to do otherwise It's gonna drain you whether whether you can start with a hobby or whether you can start Getting at going to school at night and learning something new or You know if you want to be a stand-up comic You know go to plenty of theaters But there's always something that you can do and dabble to see is there something I could go into as you maybe start transitioning your life But it is it just highlights how important it is to again not get it right when you're young because look what you're doing today Versus what you did then but to get the attitude right the idea of challenging yourself the idea of hard work the idea of I'm gonna pursue my values. I'm gonna set dreams and I'm gonna go for them that kind of attitude and unfortunately I think today with young people We've got too much of a safety net, right? I mean this idea that kids can go back home after college You know I just think of myself. I didn't want to go back home. I you know that would have meant I'd failed completely I wanted to get out of home at 16 never mind waiting to 18 for where I could finally get out of there And I think that the the the idea of not doing anything is comfortable, right? It's playing video games as that's your comfort Place that is corrupting and that's somehow again part of our educational system has to change people have to become And I think this is what this philosophy kind of teaches us. You have to be ambitious about your life and you have to take Responsibility for it, you know not in the kind of superficial sense that every conservative says, you know personal responsibility But in the deep sense your life is yours your mind is yours and you have to at a fairly young age start Taking responsibility for how am I gonna shape my life? How am I gonna shape my mind? How am I gonna shape my career? How am I gonna shape what I'm gonna do? Knowing you're gonna make mistakes knowing you're gonna fail knowing all this stuff and But getting to that mode of this is my life and I'm gonna live it Well, that's why I find this so fascinating because so much of the Messaging we get out of the media and out of academia and everything else is that it's this it's the fault of the system It's never it's never put on the person and not that we all come from different things Some of us have some advantages that others don't you might come from more money or you might come from a better family Or whatever it is, but that it is ultimately on you Yeah, so I want to both speak to that and actually follow up on what you're on the same on the other hand So yes, it gets harder the older we get and that's part of the reason that we want to get a really good running start but also and this speaks to the fact that not everybody gets a good running start and some people are experiencing trauma and abuse and you know, there's so many ways that in fact the world can interfere at least for some time with Getting yourself on a good track but and my bias as a therapist is to be more optimistic just generally partly Because I want to instill hope in my clients even if they are 40 50 60 and still unhappy and feeling stuck But also because I've actually seen the evidence because I myself have really moved farther To the more optimistic end of this trajectory having worked with people in their 70s who had become really traumatized when they went to Vietnam and came back and use alcohol to escape the fact that they were dealing with really unthinkable horrible traumatic memories and then kind of got into some conventional blue-collar job just so that they'd have something to do all day and then they get to 70 and Believe it or not at that point change is still possible to them I mean, it's miraculous to me or seemingly so except that it makes sense and to answer Kind of the earlier question and what do you do if you're already 50 and loaded down with all these? Obligations it looks different depending on the context of your life But the principles are the same so if you're 50 and you're loaded up with responsibilities and you can't just Up and you know quit and move to Hawaii and just start fresh But that's the struggle that you're now facing There are heroic things that you can do, you know, there are even if it means so, you know Yes, I'm going to start taking a night class or I'm going to start actually asserting myself to my boss Who has never really let me venture out and try different projects And I'm actually going to start pushing the boundaries of how creative I can get in this job And that is fulfilling and rewarding and challenging and meaningful No less perhaps more in some ways because it's harder and takes more of that inner oomph Then a 20 year old who just un-conflictedly, you know goes off and makes an app. Yeah It's also interesting that someone at middle-age 40-50 whatever that is maybe not the 70 year old could think that it's too late I think that people I think people really get that in their mind that it's too late Today when we're going to live, you know when we're living into the 90s quite easily and I think that's absolutely right And the other thing is that I think people in their 40s and 50s, you know, who have a particular job a Lot of people don't enjoy their job because they've conditioned themselves not to enjoy their job They don't challenge themselves in the job. They don't push themselves in the job See, yes, it might not be your ideal job. It might not be the most fun job But you can make it better. You can make it more challenging. You can make it more interesting So going to your boss and demanding to be challenged more or or or just doing the job in a different way I mean again, one of the one of the principles here is live every minute So even if you're even if you've got a menial job Figure out how to do the menial job the best way that you can do it and you'll find some Some joy in it because you'll be doing it better. You'll have challenged yourself. You've achieved something in that You know Distributing flyers in Times Square. I'm sure some of what was going on in your mind is how can I do this better? How can I I would try to I would try my best to make it fun? Yeah, you know and whatever I could say to people to make them laugh on the street and but it trust me It was still miserable. I'm sure Yeah, you were practicing your craft. Yeah, and I bet it served you later on when you were actually Standing up in front of people making them laugh You know that you had gotten to try different iterations You wouldn't have known at the time how exactly it would serve you, right? But you were exercising your chops like you were showing up and you were Engaged in actively making choices and noticing patterns and in a certain way it almost doesn't matter In what setting you first end up doing those things and it doesn't really this is one thing I teach my clients Who think it's too late that there is no one correct blueprint that exists somewhere in Platonic universe that's you know waiting just like there's no one soulmate You know, it's kind of the same idea that we're the ones who create The purpose and the meaning and that could look a million different ways But there are features that have to be there. Yeah, well also the fact that If I hadn't struggled and if anyone hasn't struggled it makes the now much more rewarding, right? If you had just been if you had just reaped all the benefits from day one you get out of college. Yeah, holy cow I got the greatest job ever. I'm rolling in dough. I've got everything Yeah, most likely that doesn't end well probably yeah, and I don't want I don't want to overemphasize the struggle in a sense of suffering Yeah, I think it's the challenging that's important to people a challenge So it's not like I don't really believe that to be a great artist You have to you have to start for a while or whatever But I do think you have to challenge yourself. You have to push yourself You have to do things you've never done before you have to learn new skills that you haven't ever done before It's not that somebody who has money can't be happy because it's too easy for them It's it's what do they do with their life at that point? So it's that it's the challenge. It's a setting a goal. It's the achieving that goal It's making those goals difficult is is what ultimately leads and kind of the thing that you be talking to a lot of our intellectuals about It's happiness. These are the things that lead to happiness. It's it's achieving those goals. It's it's Challenging yourself. That's why I hate the phrase money is the root of all evil because it's like it's not that money is the problem It's what you're doing with it or how you feel about it That actually is the problem not the money if you've got some money and you and you're a positive good person Who's doing something right? You could do a lot of good stuff with that There's a well, there's a sense in which it's the opposite, right? I mean there's a sense of which money is the root of all good because Because what does money represent money represents the value you've created So to the extent that you're generating money it means you know in a free society in a in a honest way It represents the fact that you're you're doing something good So I would view money is properly understood is the root of all good not all good But a root of good. Yeah, and a symbol of good and the accumulation of money As your income increases it means you're producing more value That's a good thing not a not a bad thing and it's not like and this is part of the in the culture There's this attitude of yeah, I'll make a lot of money. Then I'll get good stuff Well, how did you make the money? You made the money by producing values that are good in and of themselves I mean to me Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and these guys don't need to apologize for making the money by giving it away afterwards They've already changed my life by just making the money, right? They don't owe you more No, I mean, I always say if I met a billionaire In you know, I if I met a billionaire I wouldn't say, you know I would say thank you because the only way to become a billionaire in a free society is to create values that all of us benefit from Hundreds of millions of people have to benefit from them so that they can become billionaires Yeah one of the insights and Objectivism that has been really eye-opening for me is this idea that people who go after money as if that will Somehow give them self-esteem and happiness and status They're reversing cause and effect this idea that somehow if I pile up a bunch of wealth And if I'm basically if I look from the outside or if I'm going through the motions of being someone really impressive and productive That will give me the rewards of being someone impressive and productive, you know Then I'll be happy and I'll feel good and I'll be so proud of them But that's not how it worked like the money is the effect not the cause You know, it doesn't magically alchemize you into someone who earned it and someone who understands the value that you've created So I think that's what makes People think money is the root of all evil. I think that's one aspect of it Yeah, so let's let's shift a little bit and talk about art. How does art play into this now? You guys you're in my home and I've got a lot of cool art These are all these are all original pieces that I've commissioned people for and I love Looking at something you're having something that fits in a room properly that that makes me feel peaceful or makes me think or Whatever it might be. So how how is art a piece of all this? You know, we live in a world as human beings We're dealing with abstract knowledge. We're doing with abstract ideas with long-term plans and Art concretizes some of these ideas for us in a way that nothing else can't it gives us an instant Image of yeah, that's the life. I want you you look at a beautiful painting and you go I want to be there. I want to be on that beach. Oh, and you know that the sense that you're getting from the from the painting is That's the life. I'd like to live. Well, there's a guy. We know I don't know if he wants to be mentioned in this if you want to mention his name You can that at his house has that incredible Wall-sized painting that I walked into his house and I thought that it blew my mind Yeah, it blew my mind It was actually the inspiration for one of my paintings out here was that day Chris of the other space space one Yeah, I mean so you look at a painting like that and you go You know beyond wow, that's cool because it's so big. It's like it's it's it's wow You know, isn't that cool that human beings can be out in space like that? It's basically just for those obviously who haven't seen it It's it's sort of behind an astronaut floating in space with the panorama universe Heading out and it's just mind-blowing I mean when I go when I you know, I love Florence and one of my favorite places in the world And one of the first things I always do in Florence is I go see Michelangelo's David At their cat at the Academy and it's beautifully lit and everything and I can just sit there for Hours, I mean, it's like wow. I mean, here's a hero Here's what every aspect of what I want to do in life is captured here You know, I'm not a hero in the physical sense, but you know, I try to Strive towards and here's a perfect young man Standing up to Goliath with that confident look with a sling on his shoulder relaxed muscles And that it inspires me it gives me energy to go for a year You know fighting all the battles that we fight on all kinds of funds because I know hey if David could stand up to Goliath Right who you know the troubles I have a minor in comparison Anybody in whatever aspect of their life and this is why I think people love Movies with good and evil and heroism is because they whatever struggles they might have in their day-to-day lives Their life is not being endangered. They're not in the world. It's not gonna be blown up by yeah, what? You know, you're this you're the Trump. Oh You know Right So the world's not gonna be destroyed by this and they can get wow that you know Here's a projection of heroism in the face of this Incredible and yet a movie but the whole point of a movie is You're living it, right? That's why you want you like The best movies you see in a dark place where it's a big screen and you're immersed in the experience And you get that emotional fuel without even thinking about it. It's not like you sit there and you go Okay, so they're good guys and they're bad guys and yeah, I want to be the good guys It's it's an emotion. Yes, you respond to it emotionally. Yeah So Rand had this concept of a sense of life probably has come up in other conversations And it's this idea that all of these abstract Ideas that we come to hold and this worldview that we have about like who we are and what's possible all this It exists in us as this emotional label teeth. That's kind of always there it's like the the backdrop of our life and when we look at a work of art the Emotional some that we experience even before we know what it means or how to explain it to somebody else is either The way Rand would put it is like this is what life means to me or this is not what life means to me And really great art one way or another it'll elicit a strong reaction Because it's capturing in essence of something kind of you know looking at Michelangelo's David You know the works of art that probably most people watching at some point have had an experience where they looked or they you know They watched a movie. They read a book. They looked at artwork and tears filled their eyes and You can learn a lot about yourself and about what is important to you and What kinds of moments you want to promote? And again, I think I think we don't teach kids and young people how to how to Relate to art and how to appreciate it and and what it can mean for them And I think a lot of people dismiss museums and they dismiss out on opera or they dismiss certain types of music Because they don't know what to do with it and it goes back to not not training them into it not Helping them introspect not helping them identify their values A lot of people look at art and nothing happens because I think the reason is they have an identified their values It's not reflecting back anything to them. It doesn't mean anything to them. So it goes back to this because we live in a culture that is The mean self-interest we live in a culture that tries to train us to be public servants to help others to sacrifice to You know you talked before about something about other people's where you know Don't take personal responsibility your product of your genes or your product of your environment or your product of the political system We don't teach people to own Themselves to own their mind to really craft it in a proper way Then they miss out on these amazing experiences that I think that I think you can get from art and that they need from art That's the other thing is all these things we're talking about today career arts and we'll talk about romance in a minute All of them are things that you I think to be successful as a human being to live a good life over the long one you need It's interesting to me also how they become self-evident. So for example, we're sitting in my mean I've related everything into my life today, but but I think there's a reason for that. Yeah, there's a purpose behind that Right, but I mean when we design the studio and had you know commissioned this piece and this piece I wanted something that felt a little bit like chaos and order. Yeah The artist who who did this Kailin Janet she actually because she knows I love coffee the texture on that painting Yeah, is actually made out of coffee grinds and we wanted something that felt a little Futuristic and also a little spacey and all those things because I wanted to walk into a room that I felt represented me and that That you guys look good with you know, the companion piece that's behind you right now But I want to do one thing before we jump into romance Which is you've related this to stories and the importance of stories Yeah, that in most of the conversations that I've had with you guys Jordan Peterson's name has popped up and I think he's with he's with Objectivism on most of these key points the one split and we're not going to do the whole split here is with that He finds a certain value in the biblical stories as where Where you guys I think would find the value in just whatever the stories are whatever the story that matters to you, right? So I think they're deeper the deeper differences and I think I think even when it comes to the story So so it's not that I don't find meaning or value in the biblical stories I do I might not find the same values he does or interpret them differently But he relates it to something metaphysical that exists that the stories that the stories are coming out of some kind of Metaphysical reality that's out there and and and I don't see it that way I see some artists very creative people who wrote who wrote this book called the Bible and their interesting stories there and and the Stories can inspire in certain circumstances and can horrify in other circumstances And I think to be objective about biblical stories on these stories one has to be willing to accept that some of the stories You know the idea that Abraham is going to kill his older son is in the idea that he becomes a moral hero For saying yes to God to kill his older son is a horrific story and in my view is You know why you want to be careful of religion and you want to reject I've heard him take the opposite point Maybe we'll get you guys to sit down and I'd love to you know That would be a great conversation to talk about that yeah, and and to talk about the meaning But but it's a simple story. So I encourage the audience to think about what the story means. It means be obedient and And you know, so I think Jordan is right when he talks about he talks a lot about duster ski talks He does a lot with Pinocchio in Disney movies He's right that stories are incredibly meaningful for people because they reflect everything we've talked about they reflect the values And they they reinforce certain values or they reinforce the rejection of other values and a lot of how our culture shape This is why Hollywood so important a lot of how our cultural attitudes are shaped about certain things is through movies It's through stories. It's through books. It's through novels, you know, if you read duster Efsky and you read a grand They're both in my view Great authors great literary figures and yet they are projecting completely opposite views of the world And it's no accident that I love on your hand and Jordan Peterson loves that says he because we have very different attitudes So it's an aspects of life that are reflected in those choices and but I Think what he's got which is absolutely true and where we agree is the power the power of the story the power of art of The power of particularly literature because it is so conceptual. It is the most conceptual of all that it tells It deals with ideas Duster Efsky deals with ideas. I think he's wrong about those ideas and Jordan thinks he's right about those ideas And that's what we disagree I think I manage right about the ideas other people think she's wrong, but they all but good literature deals with something Really big and really important and I think that's why artists are important because it's important all our lives to get the Values right. Yeah, and it's interesting because the metaphysical part that you referenced whether that does exist or not is Almost that seems secondary to me then then what you just said there, which is suddenly in terms of the experience. Yeah, it's secondary Absolutely, but I think it's related to a point of Probable difference if I understand his perspective correctly that the idea that stories Reflect ideas and that ideas aren't just born in us that we have to decide what we believe and that We have to actually form a view and we can disagree in our views So the stories of products of the ideas that people hold there's a Reason why the biblical stories are what they are because because of the ideas that the people who wrote the stories had and wanted to convey To people there's a reason why Duster Efsky wrote the books He did because he had a certain worldview and he wanted to portray that I ran You know came up with a whole new philosophy and to project that philosophy She had a right completing new stories and it so the stories on You know the the ideas are not out there the ideas are something we have to create We have to figure out we have to own and it's up again going back to young people It's their responsibility more than anything else to figure out what their values are to figure out what their ideas are and they'll respond to art in Accordance with what those ideas so what so one more thing on this Which do you think we're in a little bit of a deficit when it comes to creativity in art? So for example every show that comes out now is just a remake of a show in the in the 80s or and every movie Instead of coming up with new characters is a reboot of something else or or even the superhero with the Marvel movies that I love I love them actually, but I love them actually, but it's the same. It's the same old it's the same old characters And I've been saying characters in the same story over and over and over again And there's no question infinity war the last one was pretty spectacular But I've sworn off all superheroes partially because I find it I find it really I think part of what's reflected in the cultures that to create a hero today to have a hero in art They have to be super right? We can't just have a hero, right? And and and you know if you go back to movies in the 50s and you could have you could have a Regular human being be heroic if you look even at Hitchcock a regular human being put in a crazy situation Rises to the occasion and does incredible things. They didn't have to have superpowers and do that So it drives me nuts that every hero today has to be a superhero But there's no question there's a deficit if you think of the if you think of the transition in Art right between the 18th century in the 19th century and the kind of revolution That happened during that period whether it was in music in literature in in the painting in sculpture in every one of these areas There was a burst of productivity and I don't think it's an accident It come coming out of the enlightenment coming out into this era of freedom political freedom that artists were suddenly Free to create and produce and to do new stuff and the idea of sitting at a coffee shop in Paris with Victor Hugo and and and some of the great sculptors and painters of the period and I just don't think we have That level of of creativity and that level of genius is applied to the arts and I think it's a reflection again of the culture and reflection again of the of the lack of introspection and thinking and and taking seriously of people's own lives Then again, yeah, and this is I guess I'll represent the optimistic contingent here So we were just talking the other day around about Hamilton and what a phenomenon it is You know the I mean everyone's heard of Hamilton, right? and it's interesting that it's a phenomenon that really cuts across political aisles and that spans historical eras and It should be either hated or ignored by everyone on this premise that or it shouldn't exist period because it's this dramatization of this American hero who defies the odds and Who? combats both literally and figuratively someone who isn't principled and is pragmatic and They duke it out at the level of ideas, right in wrapping rhyme and But at the level of intellectual engagement that I think we find in some of the art of the 18th and 19th century And it's a sensation people are starving for people are starving for great art. They really are now I mean, I loved Hamilton. I've seen it twice. I just saw it now in Puerto Rico with Yeah, Miranda, so it was it was pretty amazing But ain't very it ain't very opportunity It just ain't and I also think it's possible that we're so inundated with information and entertainment and everything else that We actually can't see the forest for the trees right now that often there is great art out there People are watching this on YouTube. You can I don't want you to click out of this But there's a lot of interesting entertaining artistic stuff that's happening. That's just not maybe Loved by the mainstream Most of it reflects values that I that I think are antagonistic at least to many of my values So there's there's a very good. They're very good TV shows That that show bad people what happens to bad people, but they're very few TV shows good well-written TV shows The show heroes the show real heroic activity and and it's it's challenging. So so yeah I mean I I enjoy movies I enjoy TV and I and I watch a lot of it and in this there's good stuff Then and one of the things so let's get back to living a good life One of the things that I think is so important for the individual to do is to find the stuff They like right and it's not and it doesn't have to be Michelangelo's David It doesn't have to be Vodian Puccini right it can be a whatever level at whatever kind of art that you love Fill your life fill your life just like you're gonna pursue the great career And you're gonna be passionate about fill your life with beautiful stuff You know we might not share the same aesthetics, but the important thing is that that the focus on it and again I don't think we we encourage people to do that But a life surrounded by beauty and a life Which is involves aesthetic experiences is part of a life well lived and I really don't think you can live a good life Yeah, without having that those kind of experiences it also lets you connect with people in another way because if you if you surround yourself with Great art and then someone walks into your home and acknowledges it absolutely you actually feel a connection with them and in a different way All right, so there's a lot of things which brings us to Love let's talk about love. How does love we've talked about like here, but how does love fit into the equation here? Yeah, so what you get from art because there is actually a connection here that art is this Embodiment the symbolic embodiment of what is possible and of the kind of world you could imagine yourself living in well love is the actual experience of being in such a world and Having such people populate your world. So when you fall in love with a person It's not it's like the two-sided equivalent of falling in love in love with an artwork right in the sense that there's actually another human being with a mind that sees what you see and That actually embodies in their person and the ways that they laugh and the ways that they move and The kind of career that they're pursuing that inspires you that they are this external concrete embodiment of what makes life worth living for you and They see that in you too, you know and that visibility both That dual experience of being visible and of being able to admire and be inspired by Someone who's seeing you back is I think one of the core components of a life God as you were saying that I was thinking man, I know a lot of people that are married to the wrong people You know like how many the way you just described that which is such a beautiful explanation of what love is I think I have that I hope you have that Yeah, but but but it was just striking me the way you were saying it was so poetic It was like wow, I know a lot of people that don't not look at their spouse and and feel that and it's sad When that happens because it's hard to find but when it happens It's it's such an amazing an amazing part of what life is about But just to broaden it a second I mean to some extent everything we've talked about is about love right and I I view often say objectivism is the philosophy of Love right now. He's gonna get sappy. Should we lay in some music? I mean it's about it's about learning to love yourself and and being worthy of your own love right and and I don't think you Can love another person fully unless you you know, you have to I'm answers in order to say I love you you have to be able to say I and you have to know what I means and you have to know yourself And you have to like yourself and you have to love yourself. It's about loving yourself. It's about loving the world It's about loving your career. It's about loving the environment you create around you It's about loving you at the experiences you have and then at that in a sense the peak of that is finding another human being that Reflects all that back to you that gives you visibility into those values that you can share those experiences with and that that You know it is it laughs with you and and and loves the I mean on the aesthetic side Imagine if your spouse hates all the art that you you know Yeah, I mean wow what a conflict and yeah, and I've seen that happen. I you know, I In a previous life. I actually owned a framing store where we sold we sold art and And people used to come in and the get that the husband would come in and say oh, man I love that stuff. This is gorgeous. I'd love to but my wife will hate me I can't buy any of it because my wife would hate it or the other way round Yeah, and and wow and I'd look at them and say that's pretty sad that you guys don't You know, that's kind of a real fundamental At the very least you need a second house. Yeah, or a hideaway or a special rumors thing Yeah, so so obviously objectivism talks about rationality a lot Love doesn't strike me as totally rational. How do you how do you bridge that divide? Yeah? So I think rationality as the means to living the best life possible is Completely not only applicable to but necessary for finding and sustaining the love of your life because a what we were talking about you have to know yourself, right? So you have to actually be able to extrapolate from your experiences of art you respond to but also the people you interact with and the things that you Do like and the things that you don't and what patterns you notice and you know Why why did I enjoy spending time with this person and I didn't feel Drained by the end of our date or by the end of you know the party Whereas this other person like I think I should like them better like they you know They meet these criteria on my list But for some reason I just don't feel like I was tired and wanted to go home like what what was happening there Does that mean I should change my standard or does that mean maybe you know My subconscious is telling me something and maybe I should figure out like what it is that made me respond better to this person Let me gather more data. Let me do more introspecting all that Falls under the heading of rational thinking At least as we think and it's necessary because it's easy to fall in love with the wrong person It's it's easy to it's easy to confuse passion with love. It's it's easy To not like somebody and and later on discover what a mistake that was because they're actually a great human being It's easy to just fall into kind of an emotional just follow an emotion and I think what what objectivism says is Yeah, we experience them Oh, you know, you live through your emotions in a sense you experience life through your emotions you want to experience Strong emotions. It's great particularly the positive ones But but the negative ones the bad emotions are important too because they tell you something's wrong But you've got a monitor. You've got it. You've got to think about them You you don't rush into marriage without thinking about well. Oh, we really compatible Oh, do we really see things is this love doesn't love make sense, right? See you see you have to you have to monitor that and sometimes we know that our emotions change We you know, we discover something new about somebody You know, we analyze it. You know, they're not the person I thought they were and suddenly you don't love them anymore So it's not like love is infallible. It's not like love is permanent. It's not like But it's so crucial to living a good life So invest the time the thinking the effort in finding somebody that you really do love and that it is sustainable So it's interesting that we've linked some of this to technology and how things have changed in the modern sense What was the phrase when the kids go back to home and they don't get out? What was the phrase you mentioned before failure to launch the failure to launch phase? Do you think there's an interesting play right now where it's like because of apps and the ability to swipe through human beings? All the time it's like you're looking you're almost looking for something that would never could never exist in a bizarre way So you've got people that can meet more people than ever, right? And you can hook up more and you can go on more dates But actually to to find what you both are laying out here has become much harder because of this Well, I think it's as much I think like any tool it can be a weapon of good or a weapon of evil depending on how you're using it and with what intent and What kind of rational? Perspective you're bringing to it. So I have worked with multiple clients to Use dating apps in a way that actually fosters a healthy dating and relationship process and I've also seen and lived through tons of really terrible decision-making Enabled by dating apps. So I feel like to the exact degree. I know exact But roughly to the extent that dating apps make it easier to be done, you know make it easier to make rash decisions and to to stalk people and to ghost people and to be really Emotionalistic and you're responsible in your dating process to that same extent It also enables you to be thoughtful and selective and to actually, you know Read someone's profile and get a sense of their style before you even meet them so that instead of meeting random people at a bar and You know hoping maybe that by some crazy stroke of luck. They'll turn out to be interesting Like you've already culled your sample in such a way that you know that the person you're gonna meet is Someone who values education and someone who isn't if you're religious that are religious if you're not, you know That they're that they share your values that they at least claim to want You know to be ambitious in their career and have interesting things to talk about That's such a huge head start. So I really think it depends on how you use it So it really I mean bring us home. You know, I mean, I know people who've Who found their soulmates are using these apps But you know, I remember a long long time ago, right going on a fighting night and You know being a place and basically going like this, right? It was reality. It was exactly the same thing It was a smaller sample and you know a lot less about them because all you could see is there If you were probably you're going like this as the women walk by You know it never ended particularly well for me anyway, but Eventually, but that was more her initiative than mine Yeah, so It's what you do with the information you get I mean, we're very quick to blame technology for a lot of the problems that we have we're very you know People's people complain about looking at the iPhone, right? I remember when everybody complained of looking at television and before I my mother used to complain about me reading too much Reading too much as a teenager wasn't out there with friends enough There's always parents have always found some reason to think that the latest technology was a problem for their kids But I think to really wrap this up I think that what? Objectivism really is about for hopefully for people watching should be about is is this idea of taking your life seriously It's this idea of figuring out what your values are It's the idea of using your reason To to understand reality but to understand yourself and a lot of what we talked about here today is about understanding yourself What is the career you want? What are the values you want to pursue? What are the challenges you're willing to take on? What is the things that you think are beautiful and and even there just like with a career taking night school? I encourage people go take a arts appreciation class It's fun and you'll learn so much or music appreciation class and break out of you know This generation listen to rap and I'm sure there's good rap But but go listen to some music, you know from from other periods and you'll find a whole other world out there You know, I discovered classical music in my early 20s and I was blown away by it So so do something act Make yourself better and and of course with love don't sit at home Just flipping that up go meet people go date go go engage go You know so pursue your life pursue your passion make them most of the ones shot you have at this life That's how you end the show right there. All right This is just one in a series of interviews I'm doing with some of the top intellects from the Einrand Institute one of them the first one is on my channel Which we'll link to right down below and we'll have a link to the other ones also right down below Thanks for watching