 TLO what's poppin? We are on twitch. We are not live, but you can leave a like comment subscribe turn on your post notification Bills, let's continue to grow the family from Chicago to the UK If we happen to go live when we miss it right above me, this is where the Highlights for the live will be don't forget. We do got the discord where you can drop any suggestions and we also got patreon This is where you can come so help support, you know keep everything alive Let's get into this though, man. This is lab by the TV. I helped the craze dispose of unaligned bodies of Or of a is this a dude that did the at the church where he did it in a church? Okay, we'll find out 27 minutes minutes with an East end gangster There we go Can you just talk about what your early childhood was like and who your family were yeah, I thought I mean I was brought by a great family We were living in Fitzrovia My mum was a Catholic My dad was Greek or Greek orthodox orthodox But he let my mum to bring us up to what church she wanted to and So from there we moved up at the East End Now the East End is a totally different culture to fit in Where did I fit in I Fitted in with all the kind of wrong people the bad boys and we formed little things and we Go around nicking leather or something else like that my mother and father never knew nothing about that In fact, they didn't even know I never went to school Because I was bunking off all the time and I just went down the drain I started mixing with the wrong kids got in a fight. It's got in Arguments and different things but the thing was I learned to stand up for myself there because You know the young guy tried to take my brother Tony You know and give him a bashing and I got stuck into him and All the other kids Behaved themselves from there and was and I saw that you know violence was a way of controlling situations and It became Like you know saying like I'm not I'm not trying to be a parent right now, but you know, it's 24-7 when you whoop your kids That's exactly what it's showing them that violence is the way to control the situation So they're gonna go imitate that thinking that's how they get what they want see kind of all violence was a way of controlling situations and It became kind of a way of life and it was one prison sentence after another got done for blowing safes Got got done for violence got done for other many other things So it was in and out of prison and I worked with a little firm from out of West London and They were in the safe line So we get a jelly night and we go in post office is or wherever and blow the safes then unfortunately I've got involved with the craze It's one brothers Ronnie and Reggie How I actually met the craze was I'd arranged to meet a guy called Cornelius Whitehead and I went down there to meet him and he didn't turn up Ronnie bender the craze driver drove by and he said Chris what you doing here? I said well, I'd like to meet somebody at the blind day or an answer and up And I'm catching a bus because my car's in the garage. Come on. He said they give you a lift He said the twins want to meet you. I said look I don't want to meet him. Thanks You know, I'm okay. If you need a few quid, I'll help you out But I don't particularly want to meet them. He said Chris. He said Tony's down there and my brother But I had to go So when I go down there, they were perfect gentlemen Spoke to me said Chris were opening the club in Leicester Where my brother's Charlie's opening it. Were you? Help us out. Can you bring anybody over there from Birmingham? I was doing right well in Birmingham because the car industry had just taken off there Gamblin had just been allowed. So the casinos betting shops all that kind of thing. So I said So they wanted you in for your connections Yeah, I said if I can help so I started taking people over there gamble and they did very well and it all fed back to the craze They knew people who were clever. They knew people who were devious. They knew everything They knew if there was a robbery there, they knew who'd done it. It no matter where we went But the people who were doing the moving were people like Charlie And it's a couple of the other lads They were the ones who moved out of London. The twins were stuck in the East End They weren't interested in the bright lights. They wanted the bright lights to come at in But they were pleased I was taking people over there who had money and could do stuff A lot of gangsters be one they the bright lights to be coming to them They want to put on for a city which I understand completely But I'm not gonna lie your city and take you out. You can put on for your city from a distance, you know, and Everything works out fine. Then I'd have a drink with them. I go down and see him and They were always always really polite and I remember they said to me Chris, we got a problem One the lads who was very very very well known God rest his soul a good bloke He's in jail and his missus having it with somebody on Ronford market Yeah, what's the problem To do I mean, I understand, you know I'm saying like Your ego get the bestie you sitting up in jail. You think somebody can't that you Somebody has the nerves to mess with your girl while you locked up But you got to think about it. Somebody don't have the nerves your girl got the nerves To mess with somebody Instead of holding you down B doesn't want him dead So I've got to be sorted. He wants him to be doesn't want him dead So, okay It's gonna be done and I went to walk away and Ronnie Christ said to me Chris. He said I've got signs for you and he gave me a watch and it was solid gold Waltham Which they'd bought out of watches a Piccadilly Can I just ask what the the difference between the personalities of Ronnie and Reggie was? Reggie was somebody who was quite deep Emotionally deep His fault was he was a drinker was on gen all the time and taking speed He came to me one day and he said Off the liquor and speed and your emotional already. Oh, yeah, it's a really bad combination Chris you said look that girl. He said you're with it. We used to be with he said I like her he said could I talk to her He didn't he didn't just go and talk to her he came and asked me was it all right and I said, yeah I said she's free. You're free. I'm no longer with her. She's a nice person You know get together if that's what you want Ronnie was a different kind of official together Ronnie was somebody I mean in the films. You've got this party animal. Yeah, I'll come here for a shootout Nothing like that. He was like more diplomatic than that But all the time the diplomat the diplomacy was another thing He was looking out of his lenses on the underneath their feet thinking yeah Paranoid, you know, what are you out? I want to find out and the only one I'm gonna find out is not by shouting at you Not by bullying you not being a nice person. It's always nice to be nice. It don't cost nothing It can be quite Reward him and that was Ronnie craze attitude But deep down was a storm and is demonized man when he didn't take his medication He was off the spectrum. He was off the roof and You never knew what was going to happen and invariably with Ronnie and Reggie having a fight and Charlie crates on a separatim because if any of the firm or anybody else got involved They start on them the pair of them. So you couldn't you couldn't win My relationship with who's good with them to be honest with you. I presented no threat to them I presented somebody who could help him and I remember Ronnie saying to me one day He said Chris. He said if anybody ever touched Reggie he said I've Put a dynamite jacket on I had the detonators ready. He said I'd like him and I'd walk amongst that walk right amongst them And I'd blow the lot up and he meant it He meant it. He would be prepared to die for his brother and it was river It's the same thing Went to a club called the Dolls Club in Birmingham And a guy called Ray Mills your very good friend decent lad Said to me Chris. He said we're going down. I'm going down to London tomorrow. Why do you come down? He said I've never met your brother Tony and you've never met my brother Alan. You just come down silo and Met him and we drove down to London Then we came over to the East End And we went to a pub on the Bethlehem Green Road and their mother was in there Old Charlie and the family and the firm and we had a nice drink and everybody was bright and everything went well And Tony said let's go to Regency Club. He said the milk brother had never been there I said I don't want to go to the Regency. I sat at the night gangsters there Sadly, I relented and I went and When we go Oh there there's a Rumour goes around there's a party and Jack make me he comes up to me I like Jack Jack the hat was a local criminal and People lights him. I mean, he's a fun kind of character when he lost it. He could be quite nasty but All I ever saw of Jack Jack was a fun guy And he come up and he said there's a party guy. He said you come in I said, well, you what party said round at Blanc Blanc Carols my car outside the Regency Club this must be about sort of I'll pass 12 at night is locked in by other cars. There were a lot of people there I'll pass 12 at night is Locked in by other cars. There were a lot of people there and Jack said we're going my car And we went to every run if you got a car I'm telling you if you ever in a situation Where you can't get to your car and somebody say, oh, we'll take my car. Don't go don't do it Don't ever do it. I'm for some reason. That's when all the bad stuff happened I don't know if that's the case in this but for some reason That's when all the bad stuff happened. No, don't do it. How about that? Oh We get out of the car I Go in Tony goes in the Mills brothers and Jack comes in Jack runs into the room shouting out. Where's the birds? Where's the party? Where's the music? Well, it was all playing there were people there dancing and what have you and A scuffle started an argument. Oh, so I didn't come down here for this The crazy thing is you didn't but how do you have no way to leave came out for for a drink? Anyway, Ronnie Craig came out. He said what's the matter? See Chris said he didn't come down it with this and really Chris had dropped him off home because I had quite a lot It's a drink boy and you know, and I didn't like it. I didn't like what was happening. Anyway, I Saw a gun come out But the gun didn't work so it was a frightened as far as I could see anyway a man called Connie White had took me home I'm sitting at home And I'm thinking well Tony's there and my car's up there You know, I'm sobering up now. I've had a coffee and what have you with my dad and I called a cab well One down and got in the cabin went up to Regency Club and got my car and then drove around to the to the to ever in road But I'd also got a gun Just in case anything had happened. It's only and I went and knocked on the door And Ronnie Bender came in the door I Said Sony down there Ronnie said no Chris. He said these sir He's gone and I said all right run see you later. I went to walk away. He said don't leave me Now we're talking about a regular soldier a good guy You know a guy didn't frighten easy or anything and I said Ronnie, what do you mean? Don't leave you He said they've killed him. I Said what killed who he said killed Jack that Teachers of tomorrow Said no, no, no not in a million years not in front of a load of people like that That's impossible. I said, where are they? He said they've run away. I Said I left you and what's your instructions that they want me to take the body Carry up to the railway bridge and chuck it over the bridge so that it can get mashed up by a train I said you mean to tell me that you have got a carrier dead body the blood still coming out of it I said and and you are actually going to throw it over a railway bridge to get to the railway bridge You've got a walk a hundred yards You can't do it. He said please Chris help me So I thought everybody's dessert you got got nobody You know, you're decent man. If you ask me if I ask you for help you'd help me. I know that so I went in and we walked downstairs and I walked in the front room and there's a body laying there Which craze when had killed him Reggie. It was Reggie. Yeah, and Reggie wasn't on the surface a violent man Always polite always thoughtful Always a good character treated people nicely What he did in quiet was a totally different thing So I said with Ronnie bender went downstairs You know, I realized Jack I had been murdered. I Walked into the kitchen and there was a basket washing up the washing stuff Clothing and I looked through it. I found some socks. I'll give Ronnie bender a pair And I took a pair and we put them on our hands. We couldn't didn't have gloves Nobody was expecting to go in to that kind of situation and we went round and we tied it everything up. I Went upstairs to the bedroom So I got an idea down off the bed. I Took it downstairs and Ronnie bender and I managed to get Jack on into the on the idea down and we wrapped him up and We tied it everything up around Obviously blood stains on the carpet. We we've managed to get a knife and cut the carpet up on whatever you and We we we did the best we could In the meantime and not came at a door my brother Tony came looking for me and He found saw my car outside and he was involved and then again another knock on the door It's blonde Carol She's come back to her flat with her boyfriend George and I'm carrying up a bucket full of blood in that, you know, we're Coloss where we've been cleaning up To put down the toilet which was on the next floor And Carol came in and she said what's happening Chris? Where's the party? I said no, it's over I said but there's been one or two problems. I want you go in your bedroom and don't come out until I tell you We're downstairs with Ronnie bender and Tony. We managed to get the body in the idea down up the stairs and into the hallway It certainly won't go in in my car But we actually wanted to get him into Jack's home car People say they put a dead body in the boot of a car. It's impossible So we've got Jack in the boot in the back seat of the car Lady him out there and then there's an argument Ronnie bender said I'm not driving that car And he was adamant he was not going to drive it. I Couldn't drive it because I'm driving my own car and Tony said I'll do it Believe me that took some guts to turn around and say You're gonna drive a dead body Went outside we follow Tony We followed him down to Maier Street and then a police car pulled out in front of Tony. I think please don't stop Please don't stop. I don't want to do it But if you stop my brother And there's a body in the car He's gonna be accused of murder. He didn't commit and everything else like that And I'm gonna have to shoot you to get him away and That's that that's the madness of it all You know, it's only sanity in it. There is no sanity throughout the whole situation anyway The police car turned off thank God and On we went down the journey down the Maier Street and Kept on until we got the Blackwood Tunnel We lost Tony and we were driving round streets looking for him and eventually we saw him and he was outside of Church the car had run out of petrol outside of church and There's been a wedding there that day because there were all kind of Petals and all the rest of it and I thought was somebody will find it. That's the end of it as far as I'm concerned You know, we've got it off our manor And we're gonna go down the road We're gonna go down the road and we're gonna go down the road and we're gonna go down the road And we're gonna go down the road and we're gonna go down the road and we're gonna go down the road It's kind of Away from everybody somebody will come to church or whatever they come out have a look in the car see a body called the police So there's been an argument in South London. It's definitely not East London. I looked in the paper the next day nothing at all Radio nothing at all So what the hell's gone on there? I Don't know That the craze have got in touch with their brother Charlie got in touch with Freddie Foreman and dragged them into it. So we are really talking about sensible people here, very clever criminals, masterminds, the hierarchy of criminal intelligence and all this has gone on. Total, total chaos, total insanity, total madness. And I thought everybody will keep quiet, there be no no problems, nobody's gonna say anything. And the next thing was they all got arrested more or less all at once, all the firm but Ronnie Bender, Tony myself, no. So everything was kind of safe. And then what happened was that I was arrested at Hart's Hotel, no I wasn't, I was arrested outside the nightclub there. And I was driving down towards the elbow room and they surrounded me, pull shooters out, put your hands on top of the car, which I did. They took me to inside your house. All of this, let me tell you something, all of this, I wouldn't even say all of this because he didn't want to go to a park. All it is because he left his car when he went to a party and had to go back and get it. I'm telling you don't ever leave your car somewhere that you don't want it to be left. Don't ever not go in your car when somebody say oh I'll drive, just take your own car. On the embankment and I thought we would probably go to Scotland Yard, it wasn't that at all. And they kind of went in, I went into a room, they took me in this room and this photograph of the craze and all their co-hearts are all there. And he said do you want to tell us about it? I said tell you about what? They said they're making a murder. I said I don't know what you're talking about. They said you were there but you left. I said no I don't know, I honestly do not know what you're talking about. Murder? No. And they said look we do know and we know you had nothing to do with it. Tell us about it. And neither you nor none of your family will be arrested. I said I don't know what you're talking about. They tried to get you to clean a script. They were loyal to me and I was loyal to them. Some of them got neat, they never put me away and I certainly wasn't going to put anybody else away. Whether it was a craze or anybody else, you don't say anything. You don't stand in the dock and point your finger at people. That's the rule of law in the East End. It always has been, it probably always will be, amongst the growing generations. Anyway, he let me go and he said look there's my card ring me. I'm here to help you. Instead of walking away, just forgetting it all, I went and saw Mrs Gray. I went a bunny all row, knocked on the door, a violent invited me in and there was a guy called Caroline there with the family and I said look the police have arrested me. They brought me down to London and I've been to a place called Sintagio House. Believe me, there's a lot going on. They've got boards full of connections and everything else with the twins up there and it's not looking good. And she said, Chris do us a favor. They're friends I've deserted and please, please, will you not just come and tell them what you told me? I said I can't do it Violette, it's too dodgy. She went, please Chris. You're the only one who can help them. Will you just come and tell them? I went to Brixton, went in, give a moody name and Charlie Christ sees me and he goes, shouldn't be here Chris, shouldn't be here. I said I can't help it. I said your mum wanted me to come over just to say hello to the twins. You shouldn't be here. And I went over, I spoke to them, oh they're overjoyed and I told them what had happened. They said, Chris, don't worry about anything. It's all sorted. You know, just make sure people are not talking. But then went back to my normal life thinking everything's going to be smooth. It's okay. These are criminal masterminds. You know, they've got connections everywhere, police, you name it, MPs, all the rest of it. Nothing's going to happen. But it did happen. Nipper Reed came and got me in Birmingham again, brought me down to London. Why did you go to Brixton Prison with Violette Cray and Charlie Cray? You were there. I said, yeah, I went to say hello. You don't say hello. I told you I was trying to help you. I told you, you had nothing to do with this and that's what we've got. Now tell us about it. What happened? I said, I don't know. Don't know what you're talking about. You're talking a load of rubbish. No, I'm not talking. I infuriated that much. He was playing around with a gun on his desk. And he ran around the table and he smashed me over the head with a gun. You don't want to tell me what happened. He said, charge him with murder. And that was Frank Cater, the other superintendent. And I thought murder. And Cater went murder. He said, yeah, if he wants to be with a craze, he wants to keep shut on it. Let him be with him. Let him do the time with him. And they charged me with murder. They then took me to Bow Street Police Station. Hyundai Santa Fe versus Honda Passport. And I'm in Bow Street and I can hear voices. And then I recognized one was Ronnie Bender and the other one was my brother Tony. They had been arrested as well. And we go and stand in the dock. Well, you was all scot-free out of there. You hadn't had nothing to do with nothing. And you still, you the one that got charged for murder. You was out free. I'm talking free to frolic. And I look in the dock. There's myself. There's Tony, Ronnie Bender, Reggie Ronnie, Freddie Foreman, Charlie Cray. We sit in that dock. And one after another, you saw the cray firm getting up and giving evidence. Not against me, not against Tony, not against Ronnie Bender, but against the Cray twins. It started off with the craze going up and they got 30 each, which they kind of expected. And then Ronnie Bender went up and he got life and 20. Me and Tony went up and we got life and 15. Freddie Foreman. You got life and 15 for leaving your car somewhere that you didn't want to. Instead of following your heart like that, let me just get them out. Charlie Cray went up. They got their 10s. Connie White went up and got seven. The, Mary got 25. What did the craze do? They throw all their friends to the walls. Did they stand up and say, no, them people shouldn't be doing time? We're the ones who should be doing time. They didn't commit any murder. No, they didn't. Everybody goes down the drain. And so that was it. It was, it was a travesty of justice. Ronnie Cray was moved to Broadmore High Security Psychiatric Hospital in 1979. He died in 1995 after suffering a heart attack at age 61. We know that already. Reggie was allowed out of prison in handcuffs to attend a funeral. Reggie died from cancer in 2006. It's all, it's all fantasy. A lot of the stuff. I'm sorry to say, you know, the Cray Empire, but I mean, they were all skimped when they died. The Englishes weren't paid the full money. I believe for the funerals. We'll have a look at Ronnie Cray's funeral, the cars and everything else like that. Where did they get the money to pay for that? They didn't have it. Someone told me the other day that they had a four million power mansion. No, they didn't. It was somebody else's. Their mum and dad lived in a council flat in Bunnell Row. I'd reached a stage where I couldn't cope anymore. I wanted to kill myself or kill a screw because that way I could justify being in prison. I hadn't killed anybody. Why am I doing a life sentence and all the rest of it? And I thought, don't think like this. You've got to get your head on straight. You've got to find something to get you through this. And under my bed, there were some books that a guy called Stuart Brown had left, Good Palomine. And I went through them and there was philosophy, there was crime, there was this, that and the other, you know, all kinds of books. And there was a Bible. So I opened the Bible and that was the front door. And he came into my life and I've been blessed. I've got lovely children. I've got university degrees. I'm blessed that I've got many, many good friends who've helped me, who've been there for me. Because you've got to understand that our man suffers in jail. I mean, that jail can be very nasty, but a man in prison deals with reality a day at a time. He begins to understand what love is. He understands what loneliness is. He understands what pain is, disappointment. But if your mind is focused on drugs, or it's focused on money, you don't see nothing else. You're blind. And there is none so blind as then that cannot see. And there was nobody more blind than me when I met the craze. I should have walked away. Because I knew it wasn't a good thing and it weren't going to end well. Some people be in a prison within their own mind basically. And I said, you ain't got to be in a physical prison, but you could be in a prisoner in your own thoughts. That was deep. TLL, leave a like, comment. I'm going to subscribe too.