 We're going to start the second half of the panel with some introductions and opening remarks from Anna and Jerry so that they can share a bit more about their own work. I was just reflecting as I came in today that I've been doing research in Indigenous communities or with Indigenous people since 1993 so that makes me older than I feel but that's not a bad thing and I thought I would share with you a little bit of kind of how I got on this pathway of doing research in Indigenous music. I'm an ethnic musicologist by trade or by definition and what that means is that my academic training up until I pretty much started my master's degree was learning music and playing Beethoven Mozart and becoming really good at piano and Western art music stuff and then I realized there's a lot of really great stuff in my own backyard. I grew up in Southern Ontario, pretty Eurocentric family, very blinders were on even though there were a huge number of Indigenous communities in my area, I knew nothing about them. So once I realized that I had real passion for ethnic musicology, learning about music from other cultures other than the Western Art Music Canon, I realized instead of traveling to Africa maybe I could learn about the music in my own backyard because if I was as ignorant as I was and I've learned after years of teaching that there's a lot of ignorance in Canada around Indigenous populations that maybe I could pick up the torch and do something with a local purpose. So I am a non-Indigenous person and I think for me having been involved in the research that I've been doing for over 20 years I've seen a huge shift in the way that we do research and how we define our research priorities and I think one thing that's really important that speaks to where we are today and also thinking about the questions that we want to think about, I really like the point that Maggie made that it's not about the research life cycle, but the life, how do you say that, the life cycle, the research across the life cycle because for me what I found is if you think about the research cycle we could break it down into really very simplistic terms, you get an idea, develop a methodology, seek out the answers, write a paper. That's a really kind of basic mundane approach to doing research, but after you get involved in the research community the research itself defines where you're going to go and the kinds of questions you want to ask. So I don't see it as it's a cycle but it's also kind of like a figure eight because you're going to go over here, you're going to come back, you're going to go over there, you're going to come back and much of what you do is based on what people tell you and where they tell you to go, the questions they ask, the questions that they pose. So it's a very organic process when you think about how your research projects are defined and again I think I'm mostly targeting non-indigenous graduate students because that was my experience and I think we have a lot of indigenous experts in the room who can talk about their perspective, but I also think it's important as non-indigenous people to recognize that we are allies, we have a role in indigenous research and to be honest about that I don't think we need to back down from that but to embrace what we can do as indigenous researchers and if you extend that further I do research but I also teach, I see a student of mine in the front row here and I think that's a really important role that we have as researchers because our research is not just something to be put on a shelf in the library, the research that we do informs our everyday interactions with the people that we are surrounded by so in classrooms, interactions with my family, interactions with my friends, once people recognize my research and my values and my agenda in life they're a lot more sensitive and they're also more inquisitive so I see the research that we do it defines who we are as people and I think the values that we have in approaching that are really something that we do need to take time to think about so in terms of where I came from just a little bit of people like what's an ethnomusicologist and I always make my students say that word ethnomusicology what is that crazy word? I am an ethnomusicologist and what that means is I study music outside of the western art music canon and pop music so it's a sub-discipline that's kind of defined by what you don't study that's kind of the the lazy person's definition of ethnomusicology it is more complicated than that but as I said when I was finishing my first degree I was really interested in ethnomusicology thought it'd be really interesting to do something to learn about indigenous music and cultures in southern Ontario that's where I was living and so the way I went about that and this ties into some of the things that we talked about earlier today and I think John did a really nice job of summarizing the response to the question about relationships it's time it's face time so once I decided you know my masters U of T so I want to go learn about native culture I started to go to the Native Canadian Center of Toronto on Spadina Avenue every Thursday night was their social I hung out I watched this is open to everybody anybody can go I felt really awkward as the white girl in the corner over there and there were certainly some glances like what are you here for you trying to you know like there is there is I felt that awkwardness but I persevered and I got to know people there and I got to know the cultural programmer and over the time of being there pretty regularly I found ways that I could volunteer so I helped organize you know apply for grants I helped I tried to write grant applications I tried to organize things you know spend time with people so that they knew that I wasn't just parachuting in to get the things I really had a commitment to learning so volunteering I took Ojibwe language classes there in urban centers here in Ottawa Wabano Minwash and Odawa they have cultural programming that is also open to non-indigenous people so that's a really good place if you're interested say I want to learn it's a non-threatening place you can go to a pow-wow you can sit there you can watch you can listen you can observe and and you're welcome there so find ways that you can you can be present and get to know people spend time spend you know it's the connections that you're going to make ask questions but be respectful so I started to hang out the native Canadian center and eventually over time in terms of this the kind of the cycles of you know through the course of my research over time I was first interested in pow-wows this is a public place it's a public forum public in the sense that people are welcome to it seemed like a safe place to start some research and what I found after my doctoral research other questions started to come out of that so after that looking at okay research on pow-wows in southern Ontario where do they come from how did the Indian Act and put the you know regulations the Indian Act how did that shape pow-wows and how they formed in southern Ontario then I was like oh wait a minute this is really interesting where are the women making the music the women didn't have a role at the drum why is that so that was the next area that I looked into so from one project you could go into the next project because those questions that you see are the questions that you see things you can start to ask questions and then that can take to the next stage to the next stage so from pow-wows you know pow-wows in southern Ontario it was women making music at pow-wows and what were the teachings around that and why are they allowed in some places and not another place and what did that mean and what did what does it mean as for me as a non-native woman who first studied pow-wows music which is primarily made by native men you know double-outsiderness but again I asked you know good people good questions was guided gently along the pathway and I think once you establish those connections and show that you're invested and that you you can give back you can give back you know volunteer your time do what you can you know spend time in the kitchen spend time in programs to help people out you know if they help people running the programs I think that kind of reciprocity is something that shows you're invested but also that your time you value their time by giving them your time and so this idea of giving back and I think in terms of where I see myself in the world of ethnomusicology when I go to ethnomusicology conferences they're not talking about indigenous research methodologies oftentimes they're still talking about indigenous music and what does it mean but there is within disciplines kind of expectations around what you're going to do the kinds of research questions you're going to ask but often there is a place if you push a little bit get your elbows out a little bit and say no this is important this needs to be done and I think as an a settler activist ally I know we've heard this throughout the day is if you do it with respect ask the right questions ask questions respectfully spend time with people I think that's I think that's the right path and I think it's all about doing it with the right heart my name is Jerry Lanwet and I'm from a small Algonquin Notionalee community about three and a half hours northeast of here in the Quebec side and it's Algonquin's the Barrier Lake and I moved Ottawa the first time around 1972 to go to high school I was raised by my grandparents on on the reserve and more typically on the land because our reserve is so small that you basically took a hundred steps and you're off the reserve it's 28 hectares back then the definition was the land set aside for use by Indians and I think since then they've actually called it a reserve now the legal definition for the land that our people sit on or live on pretty stereotypical look in a dictionary definition of what a mainstream Indian is supposed to look like both my parents went to residential school they met a TV sanatorium my sister Roxanne had her master's in social work she committed suicide when she was 39 I lost my younger brother Perry to the streets he died of pneumonia and he was homeless and died out in the city park summer set in line here it's what else I'm a diabetic or glasses I have a wicked sense humor Karen can attest to that I've known Karen for many years I use humor as part of my healing and I do a lot of volunteer work in the community like I said 1972 went to high school here didn't see a lot of prospects for a job for you know a long hair in Indian living in an urban center a lot of racism back then my first language is not English my first language is not even French my first language is all gong when spoke French then English when I moved here in 72 I say gots instead of have say tree instead of three you know stocks instead of socks and all the typical you know all gong all gong when French to English words so best thing I read is I joined the army I saw a lot of sites across the world that was overseas a number of times Cyprus journey UN peacekeeping tour I was in Germany Laura bottom bottom then came back to Ottawa as my final post so they asked me word they were willing to give me my last posting to whatever city I wanted across the country and I said I like Ottawa I'll stay in Ottawa so I like Ottawa because it was clean there was a canal there was two rivers and I could actually get on the water there with a canoe or kayak and juice go up and down so meanwhile I joined the public service in national defense I started as a mailroom clerk I think the lowest position at the time there was a CR2 which is what I started as so I worked my way through the ranks different government departments and I then joined the back then it was Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development it was Diane then they changed to Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and they've had a whole slew of other changes of names acronyms so I worked my way through the ranks there I worked as an assistant to the Director General of Human Resources I worked for deputy ministers and advisor I managed to build C-31 unit number of other pretty senior positions there until a transition over to Health Canada I worked for one of the most despicable assistant deputy ministers and ever heard of his name was Paul Cochran I don't know if anybody has ever heard of him he was the deputy assistant deputy minister got caught on a boat cruise off the coast of Cuba with misappropriation of funds that was supposed to go to this health clinic in Manitoba and he and his wife said somehow found a way of redirecting these funds for their own personal gain and use just before leaving his employment my sister I committed suicide in September of 96 so for about four or five months I was working with Alboa was a bit of a fog I was working on transfer agreements and a program policy and transfer secretariat and one day a senior personnel committee shoots me a file across the boardroom table it says here sign off this transfer agreement I said okay well you know I'll bring it back to my desk I'll look it over and I'll sign it he says no I need you to sign it now so well I can't Paul I haven't seen it yet you know and there's certain delegation of authority tools that you're given and you have to review it's due diligence so I said I can't sign it yet Paul and I know he's quite senior I was only a Director General level at the time and he was ADM and just tourist trip off being is it what's wrong with you people and don't you understand I'm trying to help you and know what I've ever seen this transfer agreement and this is all public information by the way so I just threw the file back at him and I had had enough of government and I was still a bit of a fog because my sister is suicide and a lot of issues around that and told him this was March 31st 1997 I told him to take the job and pretty much shove it went back to my desk packed up my box left probably about a month later there was a knock on my door was the RCMP it was my signature had been appearing on a couple of transfer agreements that there was no backup documentation and so on so I looked at it and said mmm that's not my signature that's not my signature either so I did remember that one file I said you may want to look up this transfer agreement to because I was asked to sign it and I wouldn't sign it because I hadn't seen it and sure enough mr. Paul Coppin got charged and convicted of a felony did time in prison and he lost all his benefits as part of his pension and so on so that was my claim defamed putting away a senior public official for investment in the funds but just get back on track I like working in the urban Aboriginal community I go back to my own community about 70 times a year which is wrapped lake like I mentioned but I've worked on quite a few of the organization that you've mentioned I helped write the first proposal for Aboriginal headstart which is now known as Maconseg I was on the steering committee that developed and wrote the proposal for Wabano Center for Aboriginal Health our Aboriginal Health Access Center here I was the president of the Board of Directors of Ottawa for two terms I brought in the urban alternative high school for get head start alternative high school now we have to fill a gap in the middle so we're working on that right now also and homelessness is a big thing for me because of my brother so wrote up a proposal to develop the 510 Rita which is the Aboriginal homeless drop-in center and we also brought in another proposal project called a bandit bus where this van goes drives around to different city parks for the homeless and delivers to the soup stews Bannock clothing if they have it and in any referrals to any services that some of the clients may need so about 2010 I was asked to and my background sorry is governance not just information governance but corporate governance Board of Governance and so on so and December 2010 I was asked to help FNIGC establish a risk assessment for our funders which was at the time the Health Canada under the RHS Regional Health Survey so I went in there to do a small project and that was supposed to be a 90-day contract and I hadn't heard anything from my boss who is still my current boss that she still wanted my services so I accepted another contract I went and delivered training to Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources on duty to consult in the historical treaty rights so she was a little bit upset that I was leaving however she hadn't told me that she wanted me to stay on so I kind of put foot in the table so she's okay fine when you finish your contract but don't don't take another contract so I came back and she didn't want me to do any more contracts you want to become an employee so I'm still there almost six years later so yeah so I started off working for the organization with for something that we I was supposed to be doing training and development but I also picked up on Ocap so Ocap was a term that was actually developed around 1986 and it was called Ocap but if anybody remembers Oca in the 90s we worked together back then and back when that was going on we helped develop the Healing Lodge of Indian Affairs called CUMIC that was in response to the Oca crisis so they acknowledged that Oca was not seen as a very good term so they added the P for possession but in my mind Ocap has been around since time immemorial it's about safeguarding indigenous knowledge sharing that information in a good respectful way and making sure that the people that you share that knowledge is not going to do anything wrong with it so terms Ocap the term Ocap really reflects around ownership I'm not going to really read through the all the slides but I have put these up in the front half of us let Ocap and it's the notion of ownership relates to the information that is held by the community either by the individual or the community as a whole so it can be data information traditional knowledge storytelling number of other things but the principal just basically states that the community group or individual owns that information so again control we were talking about self determination earlier all control is part of that self determination because it's an inherent right to that community when I say community I'm talking about the First Nations community that they should have control about what is this code about them and what is shared and how is it going to share so then access where we talked about access earlier but what information are you going to have access to so it says we must have access to information and data about themselves under communities regardless of where it is held so access to information not it's not only about information that is held within the community it's about information that's also held by maybe government departments municipal governments provincial departments or in governments even school boards dentist office then the possession is what I talked about earlier like while ownership identifies the relationship between the people and their data possession reflects the state of this stewardship of data so First Nations possession puts data back within the First Nations jurisdiction and therefore within First Nations control but when I talked about First Nations jurisdiction it's also about maybe repatriating some of that information back to the community much like artifacts museum pieces stuff that is repatriated back to the community so possession is also mechanism to assert and protect ownership and control so as we know First Nations generally have little or no control about information or data that's held in the possession of others particularly other governments so Ocap guided community making its decisions regarding how wide and for whom sorry and by whom information is collected used or shared so although we may have copy Ocap all we did that on behalf of First Nations communities all First Nations own Ocap and the interpretation we talked about earlier the interpretation of Ocap is unique to each First Nations community in the region we don't take the cookie-cutter approach it's very distinct within say a community in Oregon back where we've been the lower mainland of BC so why did we protect Ocap so you know like we have been mentioned earlier First Nations have been researched to death a lot of people go in to research projects reports or so on but never bring that back to the community so what we want to do is give Avenue given Avenue to First Nations about developing research agreements ethical research agreements and that would also give them the opportunity to minimize bad research in their community unethical research or even making sure that the information that is held about them is actually so what's been really interesting over say my last six years what FNIC is when I first started there Ocap was just a mention in the government principles and standards of research within our own internal documents so what I've done is I've actually taken Ocap on the road from one end of the country to the other we actually have the a health partnership in the Atlantic called a tweak it they'll actually use the principles of Ocap to develop a partnership they hold all their data about their clients they have data sharing agreements so everything is according to the principles of Ocap and how they define them so they really asserted jurisdiction over that information for the community nourishment one of the positive about the byproducts of this has been trademarked in Ocap what we had seen is a lot of misuse by consultants pointing to community saying that they were all half-compliant research scratching their head but what does that mean to consultants of half-compliant how can a researcher be all half-compliant because Ocap does not apply to an individual applies to information projects programs whatever is being developed so we went up and we have a trademark and we were able to send out letters from our legal advisors you probably know her Chris pay out she's my old cap group is the legal avenue I guess and she's actually really helping me bring Ocap along so Bonnie Healy of Alberta the Alberta First Nations Information and Governance Center we're having a brainstorming session on afternoon inches you know people are trying to define you but it's ownership control access the profession was that mean have you put that together and she actually summarized it pretty well we cannot pick and choose which elements of Ocap that will be followed they are one we cannot ignore ownership or possession anymore than the four directions can omit the east or the north so we still stand by that statement so for stations inherent right in jurisdiction over information and research I won't go through this is up I could keep you here probably all day in the world but it does give leverage to community when people want to go in and do research based around health programs and services because what happens in the First Nations communities a lot of that data is not protected by standard information laws or access to information laws or privacy laws unless it's in a funding their contribution agreement first nations are under federal jurisdiction however outside of their legislation so unless the community actually develop a privacy law and then has put that in either in a prostitution or their bylaws there's really no protection the first nations information so a lot of information is collected can harm a community to lead to discriminate discrimination and the stigmatized nation and hard relationships that lead to this truck what happened about 10 years ago is non-insured health benefits has a third party manager that manages the non-insured health benefits company called broken broken sold off personal information to pharmaceutical companies for mass targeted marketing based around diabetes and so on they did and this is all done without the knowledge or consent the first nations though the assembly first nations has actually approached health and about that they have stock legal avenues I don't know where it's at yet but they're still going after broken for that so what we say is first nations themselves are the only ones that have the knowledge and authority to balance the potential benefits and earns associated with the collection and use of their information so what is first nations data it includes any information or data set collected created or held by the individual or organization now or in the future that is capable of identifying first nations communities first nations membership Indian status or even residents of the first nations community governments always trying to find out who's living on and off reserve for funding reasons well we don't want to tell them the real answer because it affects them for capital funding in the community so now first nations see their information as a resource with value researchers would go into a community do the research project without thought about leaving any capacity behind in the community or even going back to the final report we're changing that we're encouraging people if you wanted or researchers rather if you want to do research within the community leave something behind for them do capacity training help them build capacity within the first nations community we've been doing the regional health survey since 1996 which was the pilot phase we're now in our fourth phase it's called the phase three you can't call the pilot phase phase one anymore it was already done phase one is actually phase two yeah I know so confusing as it is what we have done however is when we do surveys within first nations communities we're already mandated by the chiefs of assembly to do this research on behalf of first nations the information and collect belongs to first nations people we have research agreements what we do and by way of capacity done is we're establishing regional humps in each region so we share that place for data shared agreement we've helped build capacity by ways of helping them buy servers bringing consultants around privacy security so we leave something behind also we also give them back their information we never get to see their information at the community level because by the time we get it's aggregate data to talk so what we do is we give that information broad data back to the regional level and the regional level so sound any personal identifiers and give them back to the community we also provide reporting to do any type of survey or research project but we encourage them to exercise that jurisdiction within your own community we tell them you don't need permission from the federal government to do this you already have that in here right like like you just do it like I mentioned we talk about infrastructure and capacity to have to be considered where do you begin relationship building federal provincial government university is another organization's cold first nations data I mentioned that about repatriation where it's not possible develop a data governance agreement there's nothing wrong with that data sharing agreement that can be reached that effectively maintain first nations control over the data don't release that information without consulting the community so return that information is the first step similar to repatriation protection of cultural knowledge medicinal knowledge regain sacred material from museums and get forgotten back land so old cap is but old cap is about legitimizing the accountability for first nations authorities of institutions I talked a little bit about the misuse the term old cap although six years ago was very it was very little known about it now it seems to be the end thing a lot of research institutes in academia now are actually including old cap as a term in their materials which by six years it was unheard of now it's an old cap is convenient thing to mention the other thing that's happening too is people will hire the token Indians in that community and they think that they're old cap compliant that's not right so the other thing that I do also is almost three years of my life about two and a half has been devoted to developing a nonline training program for old cap so the fundamentals of old cap courses really running since February 15th was the first intake and we do a monthly intake every month around the 15th is a cutoff date until the next month and we've had that believe 150 people have registered since February I guess the next intake will be June so February March April May four months and we've done in conjunction with was an easier avenue for us and we will be doing a launch of the French old cap course and that's scheduled for release July 15th while we're in Niagara Falls at the assembly first nation's annual General Assembly and my next project is developing a project course for the first nation's community so does anyone have any questions there are well the template is very basic of course because there should be a checklist you know when you do a data sharing agreement a research agreement and there's certain things like building the relationship what are you gonna do with that and there's of course there's a whole of ethics I don't have a lot of time but this is our own internal reset research ethics review function that I have to go through every time a survey or a project comes through and it's quite detailed and we also have what we called another presentation that I was going to talk about was building a research ethics review function and it's quite detailed also it's about surveys information governance research we have our own research ethic committee research advisory committee and we actually have on retain retainer to help me develop this is her name is Karen Weisbaum she's the former privacy commissioner for Ontario so she comes back with very strong credentials and she's been very much very strong guiding light for me on how to approach this and because although first nation's communities have always had their own thoughts and views about this we're very I guess oral tradition nothing has really ever been captured black and white so now we're going back to that we're getting a lot of our review standards everything documented process accepted it by resolution even our organization was created by resolution by the Chiefs of the Assembly at the Assembly of First Nations so you know it's all about legitimacy and protecting First Nations communities first all while the pilots are still up there and what I don't see throughout the week is and it's been alluded to a couple of times this afternoon around you know capacity building and don't you know don't hire for the sake of checking off something and hire that token Indian as you put it Jerry but I guess the question is to the panel and giving you an opportunity to expand on what we mean by capacity building because I think for me it's it's not just it's not just that hiring help these these guides I don't think it's I mean it's like the whole Sherpa effect right let's just hire a bunch of anyways my sense of it is that there is this there is this paradigm that in this country that that well you know the indigenous people is are just you know emerging into the university you know there you know it's it's happening it's slow but you know there I think there's a lot of great opportunities for capacity building and this whole theme of reciprocity and giving back there is you know the tendency I think just to make sure you got the certain check marks of your ethical approaches and relationship and we don't take up the opportunity to really think about you know what capacity building could mean it's not just hiring it's not just you know training hold my stick while I go and you know study this plant or something but I think you know reciprocity in that regards is you know what about you know the onus seems to be on the researcher within the institution but what about the institution right because you know there's a lot of money in this there's millions of dollars a year across this country and to put the onus on the researcher to make sure that you've got an ethical relationship I think because of the fact that it's a million dollar business plus I think the institution is to do some learning too but you know I think why can't the research to come back and give a workshop to you know faculty about breaking down and creating understand why not offer a scholarship to the community why not you know there's so many in kind but as well as financial considerations that we can be towards you know you know collaborative research well what does that mean so I think there is an opportunity for all of that I think it would be great to hear your perspectives because I very interesting of what you were saying maybe if you each want to speak to that from your own experience what what is capacity building meant or what does that look like at the university I think capacity building can also be the things that we can introduce into the into the institution to empower to give voice to indigenous research by indigenous students so some of what we're doing in collaboration with case Canadian studies and and you know there's a lot of overlap between who's doing things but obviously the average education council you know we've for three years now we've had a student focus conference so it's you know it's a call for papers goes goes out everywhere for indigenous indigenous research so that's building capacity with our students by creating a form for them to do their research the other kinds of things we do our brown bag lunches film screening so ways of bringing the research not just into the classroom and not just into you know learning journals that will sit on a shelf but trying to forge a community across the campus where we can come together and do those kinds of things the challenge I think when you talk about institutional advocacy is that the people who are who are committed to this are also the people who are committed to doing everything else so the indigenous researchers on campus they sit on too many committees and they get asked too many times to do too many things and so there's a you know we don't want to say we're gonna have another student conference or can you do this we need you on this committee we need you to chair this we I think that's a real challenge but as an indigenous researcher I see my role in terms of advocacy and you know capacity buildings to support the students that I have in my classroom to if I see a shining star to say you should go on grad school I will write you letters of reference let me do what I can to help you or support you through this so I think capacity building at the university can happen as well but the problem is you know in the same way that we need time to build relationships we need time to make these things happen as well and I think just report everybody's pulled in so many different directions so it's not really an answer to your question except I think there are gestures towards that at the university how successful we are I think we're on a journey towards something I don't think we're there yet we develop regional hubs where each region's representing an organization develops a gateway to hold the information any tool of software and so on licenses are actually given down to the community level a lot of the training that we do in the communities is free what we also do is we encourage community members to work through our regional organizations actually become employees we set aside positions to help develop a mentor of these people you know the to acquire the skills the other thing we do to here's a good plug is we give a two scholarships a year for anybody wants you want to information governance or epidemiology so if you want our website we offer scholarships every year two a year an instance that I just want to mention also as some of you may have heard of the Hava Supai Indians in Arizona you know where the there was blood and hair samples collected for diabetes study the information that project actually did not come to completion the researcher ran out of money and just abandoned the project so all the information was boxed up the samples were left in a freezer a couple of years later somebody came in saw that this information was there did their own study to try and prove that there was an incessuous relationships in the community and a lot of these people had migrated over the Bering Strait so you know really not what the samples have been collected for misuse harmful events to the community so what happened is the University of California was going to be sued by the Hava Supai tribe they came to an agreement the day before the judgments were supposed to be heard in court and what the University of California did is offered scholarships to any and all members of the Hava Supai tribe to attend your University they built a health center to deliver programs and clinic assessments and they came to that agreement for the judgment was rendered so the lawsuit was withdrawn the following day before the judgment was rendered but yeah so you know build capacity in the in the community when you can How would you suggest navigating the use of terms or ideas that are part of your discipline that might not be inherent to an indigenous community that you're studying so the example that immediately comes to mind at least from the discipline of music is that as long as prayer is considered singing but there is you could call me yeah yeah exactly or in my discipline of religion the people I've interviewed don't use the term religion to use spirituality or worldview but it's religion because it's my discipline is religion it's not something I cannot really skirt around too much I'm just wondering if you guys have any examples of this tension how do you guys navigate going your theoretical framework for your thesis your major research essay right this is what the scholarship says this is how I'm applying it and using it for my own purposes so it shows you've got the academic grounding in the skull the existing scholarship and you know what's been said but you're grounding it based on what people have told you and your own lived experience and you put those in dialogue with each other and I think that shows an important self-reflection to self-positioning it's not just here's what they say and here's how it applies here's what they say here's how these the people say or this is my understanding of it and that kind of interinter dialogic nature of that discourse I think is I mean that's what scholarship is all about right it's putting things in dialogue with each other and you're the person in the middle trying to make sense of it for this other audience and I would say don't shy away from the eye in your writing you know you like students come to university like can I use the first person and I think in the kind of research that we do you have to write yourself into it because so much of what you're doing it's much of what we're doing if you're invested in important self-reflective research you're invested in it you have a place in it and don't write yourself out of it because your interpretation your understanding your you know creating dialogues between different speakers is all based on your experience so you need to put that there's usually now I think in a lot of you know major research papers and you know the kind of ethnographic writing who are you what's your background what's your experience because that shapes everything so I would block out a couple paragraphs at least of you know who are you where you come from why are you doing this research I think that's I think that's one of those big shifts that's happened in academic scholarships is that you are part of it you're not just the fly on the wall speculating yeah we every one of our surveys that we do we do methodology according to our in first nations values and before we even look at the sampling and then we do the sampling because it does become what people identify as your world view right we're the youth coming up now gender neutral and asking questions about, you know, we personally and where I fit in. And a lot of them are a loss of words and they don't know how to answer your questions. Because this is the next generation coming up and it's really reaching back into our ancestral past of how there was inclusivity and acceptance of our people who walked various different ways of life. And that was all embraced and everyone was treated equally. But colonialism, other aspects of Earth history changed that and now we're trying to reach down to that history again and bring back that kind of respect for everybody. And in the academia field, I mean, that's the community issue too, right? But I see the youth right now looking towards, you know, going to school, but yet when they consult with others, they feel there's a little bit of a generation gap on news because of the impacts of schooling and all of those issues. Anyone have any ideas about that? Are we going to overcome that? I have a lot of interaction with the youth in the urban community here, not only because of my own personal interests, but because my daughter's quite active. Some of you might know my daughter, Danny Lanuette, and she's a jingle dance dancer. She does blanket exercises. She does a whole thing all involved with youth. But she came to me probably about three, four years ago. One of our friends started identifying as gender neutral. And she didn't know who to talk to in the community about, you know, to an elder about it. I said, well, you know, it's something that was really taken away from us, you know, either through residential schools or the teachings weren't passed on and so on. So, you know, maybe she should start a little circle of her peers. So that's what they started. So this one person, I'm not gonna say their name, is doesn't go by a he or she, goes by they. Gender neutral. But that's according to an identity that her own peers or their own peers, sorry, came up with amongst the rural circles. All the kids that she hangs around with all have First Nations teachings. They may not be all from the same community, but they're all, you know, fairly local. Kitty Ganzibi, Nishinaabe, when like maybe Sagamak or, you know, Cape Croaker, a lot of even Titan, Denega, some of the kids are from there. So the kids from the circle just started to establish their own, I guess, safe place where they could talk about it. So that may be an avenue where, you know, a lot of you have to start stepping up for themselves. A lot of the elders don't know. They weren't teachings that were passed on, they were, you know, taken away from them. With the youth, they try to go back to their home community if they have that connection. And they feel even more alienated. They go back to the city and they don't want to, you know, they totally shut out of their culture and traditions. So I think it's a developing situation too. I think when it's through some positive health plans right now, so I think that's Sean's promise, but it needs to be built on. But I think you'll find with a lot of Trent, like the GBLTQ community, their family becomes their community rather than their extended family. So that might be something to take to the youth to say, you know, if you look at the feminist litter, look at the queer theory, look at what's being done, it's not, people are not finding home or feeling family with their bloodlines. Their family is with people who are like them that come together. So that might be, you know, something you could take back. Yeah, and even like community traditions and what someone calls themselves, I think there was an issue brought up by a young woman who was using her name for herself on Facebook. Her Facebook got shut down because she, that's her identity. And then she raised the issue, well there's lots of my trans friends who have their name on Facebook. It might not be the name that they use that's on the university. How do we, and these issues are all coming up? Because everything's online. The word data is available. There can be hurtful data too about someone's past if it has to do with gender identity. Exactly, yeah. But I think in that case, like I was saying earlier, I think the affiliation would be more, maybe towards, steer them more towards the community, the two-spirited community, rather than looking to their home because I think that, you know, it's a conflict of identity. Identity's up there. It's something that permeates all of what we're talking about. It's this question of, you know, in and out who's there, who's not, how do you wear your identity? And in this case, perhaps their identity as a transgendered person is a stronger marker for them at this point that that's the identity they need to nurture and the other one is there for later. Although I remember when I used to live in Manitoba, there used to be a couple of two-spirited dancers who were gender neutral. And they were accepted at some cows house to cross-breast dance. And we're seeing, again, that's reaching back to the past because those things, and there's the clown culture of ceremonies and all those things that are being underserved by scholars and lesionists and non-lesionists. So I wonder if your question, part of your question is, how do you take this new knowledge that's being gained through research and transform the community to make it responsive to it? But legitimately, I think it's not, sometimes there's new age movements that go on to these sort of things and the kind of misinformed aspects of the community. But I am conscious of the time and I know others have commitments and travel and so on to meet. So I just, I really wanna thank all the panelists for sharing your experience and all the contributions today. And thank you to everyone for your questions and keeping the discussion going. So we have many, many reminders to carry us through the rest of the week and especially sticking with me is this idea of research ethics through our life cycle and not limiting it to a project or funding life cycle. So thank you so much. It's late. But I've been told I'm an elder and elders can go on and on and on and on. So I'll go on and look just a little bit. Two things happen, I'm from Skidigit, it's my village in Haida, Hawaii, off the west coast of British Columbia. And I had complaints from the Haida people about our teachers. I was the First Nations Education Coordinator. And the people in Haida Gwai, the families were saying, they never come see us. We have pod latches, which most of those are, they're not family affairs, are open to anybody who wants to come. And the teachers told me, because I went to them and relayed this, that some of the people were saying, why don't they come to our events? And the teacher said to me, because we're afraid we're not welcome. You see what that cut off? Don't let that stop you. Open the doors, go through them, become a circle of friends and learn what you can learn and give what you can give and get into the mix. And I'll tell you one more quick story. We had a curriculum developer, I had a language and culture curriculum. She was an expert at translating things in the ministry of speak, you know, the ministry of education, an expert. And she was also somebody who would roll up her sleeves and work with our elders. We had meetings with elders and the elders got the lover because she kept coming consistently would translate what they had to say in the ministry of speak and do it perfectly. Something happened once, I was giving her the tour of the island when she first showed up and it showed me her character. We went up North near Massett to Toe Hill where one of my grandmother's village sites used to be, there's post holes there now. And you know what's in those post holes? Toilet paper because somebody, some people who come through and had no respect for what they saw. I said, Wendy, this looks horrible, but come see this. She wouldn't step off the road. And I said, Wendy, why don't you come in? She said, because I need to feel that I'm welcome and I wanna show the proper respect to those ancestors. And when I'm welcome and they tell me I'm welcome, then I'll come. Four years later, she actually went in and saw the village site. When she knew she was ready, you have skills. Skills that translate in the ministry of speak, research speak, all those languages and they are languages. They're distinct languages in their own right. People need, people that are committed that are willing to do research that has reciprocity. That's where you come in. Roll up your sleeves, there's a lot of work to do. Don't be afraid of us. Approach us and be prepared to work and become, as Anna said, a very important word. She said, allies and I love it, allies. Thank you very much for today, for being here for this period I feel present. This is a gathering in which there are no barriers. Remove the barriers one by one and keep on talking to one another. Keep the conversation going after this week is over too, because we have a lot of work to do. Hawa miigwech ebskenas. Thank you, I had to dig that one out. That's to Kilman. It's a theoretically extant language in Southern Oregon and it's a word for the creator. Something just to take with you that a people would give the name like this to the creator habskenas. It means the children maker and we are making children. Even if they aren't coming from our own bodies, we're making children by the work that we do and the children are the hope of the next generation. They will take over from us. So join the children maker habskenas in whatever you do in your research. Remember the children, hawa.