 Welcome, everyone. My name is Polly Savage. I'm the lecturer in art history of Africa here at SOAS. It's my great pleasure to welcome you to this inaugural event of Africa Fashion Expanded, which is a collaboration between the SOAS School of Arts, the Centre of African Studies and the V&A. It will include a series of events that will take place across the coming year to mark the Africa Fashion Show at the V&A. The idea of this series is to open up a space in which we can think in expansive and challenging ways about cloth, dress and fashion. The idea is to consider some of the multiple ways that materials are intertwined in our lives and implicated in the ways we understand ourselves and each other. We ask these questions through the lens of the visual arts and in conversation with visual artists and curators. So, I should just say, I should just plug some future events. Some future speakers will include the artist Hugh Locke, who's going to speak at the V&A in December. We have Sayawiya Kiambi speaking in February, and that's hosted between Nairobi and SOAS. We have Joy Gregory speaking here at SOAS in February. And finally, we have Michael Armitage and Hassan Musa speaking at the V&A in March. I should also mention some other events that are happening at the moment. Of course, there's a huge amount happening this week in particular. So, Michael Armitage's exhibition amongst the living is on at the White Cube in Bermondsey until the 30th of October. Of course, 154 contemporary African art fair opens tomorrow at Somerset House. The Royal Africa Society have a fashion show at the Shard, Creative Africa, which is on the 2nd of November. And of course, the Africa fashion show is on at the V&A until the 16th of April. And do go and see it if you haven't already. Here's the beautiful catalogue. So, I'm delighted to introduce tonight's speakers. It's no exaggeration to say that between them, they really are changing the shape of museums in London. Dr Christine Joginska has worked as a women's wear designer, an academic, an artist and a curator. She's worked in the fashion industry for over 30 years, creating women's wear collections for iconic British brands such as Margaret Howell. Throughout this time, she's developed a creative practice and a research practice that explores the relationship between cloth, culture and race. Her PhD was entitled Colonising in Reverse, the Creolised Aesthetic of the Windrush Generation. And this was awarded by Goldsmiths Centre for Cultural Studies in 2000. Since then, she's had fellowships at the University of East London and the University of Johannesburg. She's curated a number of exhibitions, including for the Crafts Council Gallery and the Johann Jacobs Museum in Zurich. Her recent publications include spinning a yarn of one's own in a companion to textile culture, refashioning African diasporic masculinities in fashion and postcolonial critique. She's a co-editor of the forthcoming Bloomsbury in the Psychopathia of World Textiles. In 2016, she delivered a TEDx talk called Disobedient Dress, Fashioners Everyday Activism. Of course, most importantly for this event, she is the V&A's inaugural Senior Curator of African and diaspora textiles and fashion and the lead curator of the African Fashion Exhibition. In conversation with Christine is Dr Gus Casey Hayford, OBE. Gus is a familiar face for many of us. He earned his PhD here at SOAS in African History. And since then, we've been lucky enough to welcome him back. Most recently as Professor of Practice for the School of Arts at SOAS last year. So Gus is a curator and a cultural historian. He writes and lectures widely on culture. He's presented a number of radio and TV shows for Sky and for the BBC, including Lost Kingdoms of Africa. And most recently for Radio 4, Torn, which is a series that explored 10 key moments in global histories of fashion. He was director of the Africa Festival in 2005 and has held leadership posts at many leading institutions such as Arts Council England, the ICA and the Smithsonian. In 2020, Gus was appointed as the inaugural director of V&A East, which is the V&A's new museum and public archive currently in development at the former Olympic Park in Stratford. So I'll hand over to Gus and Christine. The plan is that they'll speak for about 50 minutes and they've asked me to say that they're very happy for you to interrupt. So if you've got a burning question, then feel free to put your hand up and get involved in the discussion. Although we will also leave some time at the end for questions and discussion. And then that will continue until 7.30 after which we have drinks and a reception in the Brunai foie, which is outside. So please join me in welcoming our speakers tonight. I feel so lucky working alongside Christine and also working in a V&A that has given you the freedom to create something as extraordinary as Africa fashion, because I think it has been, in my career, it has been something which has been pretty seismic. I mean, how did you feel about it, both getting the opportunity and seeing it delivered? I mean, it's really surreal. So the exhibition opened maybe four months ago. And for me, when I was asked to lead the project, it did feel like manner from heaven, to be honest with you, because it brought together many different strands of what I was doing before. It brought together that designer's eye and that interest in the detail of making garments. It brought that post-colonial... Do people still use that word? That's everybody. We're all decolonising everything in our path at the moment. But it brought together that kind of background in post-colonial studies, in art history. It brought together the goldsmith's years. And this idea of placing fashion within that broader context of art and culture, we were able to bring to this project. So it's been wonderful. And it does feel almost like a balm, too. It's a delight and a balm, in a way, to be working on a project like this at this time, particularly in my own career, you know? But our voices, I mean, I've always felt... You know, I was the director of Innivert. And I've been kind of... Just when we first met. Yes. So Gus forgot that. You forgot that when we met again at the V&R. We first met when I was an intern at Innivert. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm very rude. But I have always kind of felt that I've been battling from the margins. And something has, fundamental, has shifted. And that it has felt. And it is, only for me, at least, even at the Smithsonian, I was director of one of the most peripheral institutions. But you and I, that we are now absolutely, I mean, the Victorian Albert Museum, we are absolutely kind of there in the kind of heart of the establishment. And then to be able to do this... I mean, what does it mean to you? You know, it'd be nice to think about what one can... what it might mean in terms of what we can deliver for others. But I mean, what does it mean to you? I mean, personally, it does feel wonderful to have this show in the heart of the V&A, in the heart of the establishment, and as a team, and some, you know, Elizabeth is here, who works with me. And as a team, from the beginning, we said we are centering Africa. We are centering multiple and varied African perspectives. And we were quite blinkered in that. And there was an attitude of the creatives that are in the show are charting their own course. They're doing fashion in their way. And we replicated that in the way that we produced the show. And there was a sense of, okay, everybody else will have to just catch up, actually, because this is where we're going, and this is how we're doing it. So it's really refreshing to see that the museum was behind that approach, slightly blinkered in a way, but saying, yes, the exhibition is for everyone, but we start with Africa. We start as though we're planting our feet on the continent and we're looking at the rest of the world from that point. And I think that that has given the exhibition a particular character. And I think for me personally, because all of the work that I was doing before, you know, much of my work, you know, my PhD was based on Windrush, so I was starting in the Caribbean and looking at the rest of the world from that perspective. So to be able to bring that kind of attitude and to say from the beginning, this is about agency, this is about what I see as the genius of African creativity, and this is about us just being. It's wonderful to be in that space and to see how people engage with it and to see the creator's reactions when they go into the show. It's meant that it's just felt so worthwhile. You know, and I found the process quite moving, actually. And how do you get started? This is an institution with more than 170 years of its own history and its ways of working, and yet it hasn't ever done this before. And how do you say, this is what we're going to do and I want to do something different. I want to do it in a way that, of course, mirrors some of the sorts of development techniques that you've deployed in other exhibitions, but you want it to be your own. I mean, how did you go about that? What were the processes? How did you begin those conversations? I have to say it kind of helped that I wasn't from the museum world, because I think sometimes it's easier to work in a different way, partly because you just really don't know and because you're coming with a different set of skills, a different vocabulary, a different way of working. And so, really, I didn't consider what others might think, which sounds awful, but I just really knew that whatever story we ended up telling, it had to be a story that was not about lack. Because even today, many of the stories that are told about the continent and the Caribbean are told from a position of lack. So I knew from the beginning it couldn't be that. It had to be the opposite. It had to be about abundance, somehow. And I knew that it had to somehow be a platform for many, as many African voices as possible needed to be present. And that was before any narrative was written. Those were the things that I somehow knew it had to be like that. And I think I was very vocal about that from the beginning. And I say there wasn't a part of me. I was really inspired by the artist's faith Ringgold. I remember, I'm sure that people saw her show a little while ago now at the Serpentine, and I went to hear her speak. And there was a question from the floor about the fact that it was her first solo show, I think, in London. And how did it feel? And she said something like, I just kept doing what I was doing, I kept doing it in my way, and I waited for the rest of the world to catch up. And so I feel that that's kind of the approach behind African fashion. But that's terrifying, though, isn't it? When you come out there on the typerope, and you know that the only way is to keep going forward, but around you are people who... They may not doubt you, but they know that this is uncharted territory. And you've just got to keep your eyes on the prize. I mean, it must be tough carrying that. But you know what? I mean, for me, you know, it's not a joke and it's not a lie when I say it's a delight and a balm. I never thought that I would be doing anything like this at this point in my career. You know, I was maybe five years off retirement, I'd worked in the fashion industry, and there was that moment when I was offered the role, and I thought, well, I can either carry on designing dresses and retire and have a quiet life, or I can jump and I can jump into this role and I jumped. And so for me, it really is a delight, it's a lot of work, it's a punishing schedule, but we have a brilliant team, you know? And so you feel as though you're being carried, you know? Yes, there are people that are catching up, but the core team were right there, and you're working with the best conservators in the world, you're working with incredible technicians, you're working with wonderfully open and creative designers. So the design of the show, I'm really passionate about, and we worked with a fantastic young architects practice that had not worked on an exhibition before. But again, it was wonderful because we found a way of working together because we were all new at this thing. So there was an openness, and there was a push to be as creative as possible within those boundaries. Was there a particular object at the beginning that began to really help you to get a sense of what the exhibition might actually feel like and be like? Was there something that kind of you felt this is powerfully going to be tonally what we're going to see? It's interesting, this is a really brilliant question, because in a way, in those early days, I started during lockdown where some of the majority of the team were on furlough, so it was that strange time working from home in a museum and not in a museum. Having this sense of, oh, it has to be about abundance, it can't be about lack. The thing that my inner inspiration was the drum magazine. The way that drum magazine, the first African style magazine, the look and feel of it, the way even the colour palettes that we use, that strange mid-20th century technicolor where it's bright but it's not bright, it's pastel but it's not really pastel, and that mix of it's about music, it's about fashion, it's about that buzz of, you know, Soweto in that moment. So in a sense, it was my imagined idea of what drum, what would it be like, I remember saying to someone really unhelpfully, I wanted to feel like you stepped into the drum magazine, but I almost feel that that's what's been achieved by the teams, all of the teams that have worked on it, but for me it was having that edginess, but also elegance of those early drum magazines. But there's something, isn't there, that's sort of a beautiful symmetry in that there's something about that mid-century moment that replicates this moment, a kind of disjunction between or disconnect between generations, and a sense of the moral authority actually being held in the young's imagination. And then projecting forward toward what they've seen as a destiny that may not in any way match what their parents believed. And I think it's a fascinating moment in which culture overtakes politics and you see people embracing the things in what they wear that seem to really be a restingly juxtaposed to the sorts of things that are being written about in newspapers. And culture really is the space within which exciting things are happening. And Africa becomes the crucible for so much of that, a kind of distillation. And whether you were African-American or whether you were living in Britain, there is something really exciting about what's happening in Africa. Yes, because it just meant so much to everyone in diaspora what was happening on the continent in that moment. And I think there was a romance around it, of course. And I think that's why it was important to start the show in the independence era and to... So it's on two floors, so there's a historical floor that is independence and liberation and you almost walk through a section that is indicative of the cultural renaissance and we place fashion within that. And we really felt that that era is foundational to what we see on the... Or echoes what we see on the continent now, where leading the globe, whether it's art, music or fashion, and that was kind of what was happening then. So for us, it was really exciting, for example, to almost stumble across the William Greaves Ducar Festival documentary and to be able to put excerpts from that in the show was really important. Because within that documentary you can see the whole world there in Ducar. You can see Africa as this modern cosmopolitan continent and we're really seeing that repeating now. And also a kind of sense of possibility for issues of equity and gender and pushing back kind of boundaries in a range of different areas, which within which race, of course, is the kind of the core analogue, but it's about a whole range of different freedoms. And you see those exhibited through photography, through new kinds of cloth, through the ways in which the cuts of clothes and you capture that moment just so exquisitely and that it feels radical, that flaw, even today when you travel through it, because there's a recognition of... These are people who are living the moment of change. I thought that was absolutely thrilling. One of the ways in which I thought that was most palpable was the photography. Yes, I feel that the photography is one of my favourite parts of the show. In particular, the family portraits. So we had a public call out for objects and images that related to that independence moment and telling history through fashion and textiles essentially. And so within the show, if you've not seen it, there's a really beautiful section that showcases family portraits from 10 families, I believe it was in the end, all grouped in their families. But I think we all have these old photographs, don't we? And in my case, I don't know who all the people are in the albums, but they transport you back to that sense of hope, that zest for life, that idea that the future is in the hands of these young people and there are many possibilities. That's the sense that you get when you look at these. And yes, we have the studio portraits from San Luis. Sorry, for example, and various others, Hamidou Maiga. But for me, it's the family portraits that they just get me every time. Just really, really exciting to see. And to watch people relate to them is really incredible as well. You know, we have whole families of different generations looking at them and you just know that out of tumbling, there are own family stories around that moment. But it's the moment when Hollywood, they're sort of writing a kind of new language of iconography with James Dean and Marlon Brando. And then you see in Africa this awakening of a different kind of sexualisation of young people, but in much more subtle ways that are much more kind of... They're much more nuanced and complex and much more dealing with... You know, it's about kind of subtle flirtation and about ideas and about sort of testing parameters and it's exquisite. I mean, I look at that sort of generation of kind of cater and then kind of Barnard and you see a language of photography that is so beautiful and that the photographs that probably once upon a time that they would have sat on mountain places. And then suddenly it's a generation of photographs that you'd wear in a brass cross pocket because it captures so perfectly the relationship that you would have with someone. That this isn't about something distant that would be shared. This is something that is so personal and intimate. And it's just beautiful that this is happening in all of those African cities that this renegotiation of gender and sexual politics and music and dance and it's happening and fashion is the space where it's really being negotiated. Yeah, and it's the attention to detail and it's the gesture as well. You know, it's... You have to remind me, the man with the flower. Is that Malik Sidibe? Yeah, yeah. Cater. Cater. So the man with the flower and the pen in the pocket. And I hadn't noticed until the print that's in African fashion. I hadn't ever noticed the floral handkerchief. So the pen is in the top pocket, but there's a floral handkerchief underneath. You know, and for me it's just such an arresting photograph. That photograph, he's wearing these beautiful glasses. And he's sitting in kind of quite sort of languid. It's just so relaxed. It's not... It's posed, but it doesn't feel posed at the same time. And he's wearing a jacket, which is so exquisitely cut. Beautifully tailored. And you... This is a man who just... He knows he's good looking and he knows that. He knows he's being looked at. Yes, exactly. And so he's flirting with the viewer. Yes. And you're right, he's really kind of languid in the way that maybe Fred Astaire might be. Exactly. Thinking about Hollywood, you know, Hollywood aristocracy. And so he has that air about him, but then these lovely touches like the floral handkerchief with the pen on top. Yes. It's just wonderful. And then the flower is just absolutely stunning. But then also then against that you then... You deal with music, so that you have... There's the space for Miriam McCabe. You know, that there's the responses that seem to kind of kick against some of that. That these are people who... They look at the sorts of possibilities of the posed independence world and they aren't necessarily finding themselves necessarily either well-cated for or the speed of changes and necessarily reflecting them. And that you see this kind of burgeoning new moment of fashion in which things seem to really change. And you capture that beautifully both in some of the sorts of music that you refer to and the writing, but also in the fashion. Thank you. That's a lovely comment. But I think that what I love is... I'm almost reminded of, and I think it was C.S. Lewis, this idea of the dappled nature of life. And you get that. So you have the exuberance of some of the music, then you have this sort of the languid pose of the guy with the white suit. And bringing all of those two things together, all the many things together, that almost contrast and shouldn't necessarily go together. I think that's what makes the show quite seductive in a way. But true to life, true to everyday life, you know. Because you do wonder what the people in these photographs were doing moments before and moments after. But in that moment of taking... Having the photograph taken, Elvis can be Elvis in that moment. But who is he away from that? But there is that moment of disappointment beyond that, of the fellow cooters and the Miriam McCaith, that they capture this moment in which that generation of regimes that had shown great promise don't necessarily deliver for that generation. And there is a range of both musical but also kind of fashion commentary that pushes back. And you see a whole range of new sorts of ways in which people are expressing themselves, which is about a different kind of pan-Africanism that sits in opposition to that older generation, whoever they may be. And I think that's fascinating of fashion for a moment kind of becoming the space within which politics for the young seems to really be at its most dynamic and interesting. I think it's interesting the way that fashion itself is constantly changing and that's the nature of fashion. But I almost think through fashion and through textiles we're able to temporarily still that flux. And there are temporary freedoms, I think, that we can express through our clothes, because it's only ever temporary, because everything's constantly moving. And I was thinking about doing fan on all those wonderful metaphors of cloth, where he speaks about almost being shrouded in blackness on the one hand. But I think that fashion allows us to break free of that. We can put on a different set of clothes. We can truly reflect who we know we are on the inside through our garments. And you really see that in the photography in the show because this is us behind the camera as well as in front of the camera. But this is all temporary. It's a kind of a temporary freedom, I think. And then on that top floor you begin to help us to navigate some of the more contemporary choices. And how did you, because this is a continent, this is, this is the most, in my mind, culturally complex continent, how did you then begin to sort of break up all of the different myriad of choices that you could have made into something that makes such coherent sense? But I think it helped knowing and accepting that we would only ever be able to give a glimpse of the fashion scene on the continent. And we knew very early on that we wanted to have what we described as a corners of the continent approach. We didn't only want to look at West Africa or East Africa, we wanted to geographically look at many different places across the continent. So once we had those parameters, we were a really small team actually. So there was myself and Elizabeth as permanently on the project, various other people coming in and out. And we also had a researcher who was based on the continent, Sonny Dolaad. So all in all, there were maybe four of us at any given time doing the research. And so we literally would research different designers and stylists and photographers and so on and bring them all to the table. We'd have our big Monday meeting where we would brainstorm and then boil down, boil down the people that we then wanted to have conversations with. But the groups that you see upstairs on the contemporary floor, whether that's artisanal or mixologist or minimalist, those groupings came out of the conversations with the creatives themselves, really kind of listening to the way that they wanted their work to be represented. And there were certain things, certain features that kept coming up. So the artisanal group, they're the group for whom showing the mark of the hand was important. But that could be Imanna Yusie-Couture, who chooses to show in Paris on the one hand. Or it could be Ewa Mehte in Marley, working with local female artisans to weave these fabulous organic cotton, hand-died creations. So within each section there is diversity. So we wanted to say that the fashion scene on the continent is as diverse as the people who make it. So that was another parameter. And I think we did want people to go into the show and almost to be overwhelmed by the power of that level of creativity. And the diversity. And the diversity, yes, we wanted that. So I think there were five sections upstairs. Can you take me through some of the sections, just some of them? Yes, so thinking about this idea of diversity, you begin with the minimalist group. And so these are decided for whom it's all about architectural cutting, it's about drape, it's about line, it's not really about excessive use of pattern, there's little or no pattern, and very restricted use of colours. So you have designers like motions reinventing the man's suit. But that sits right next to the mixologist. And the mixologist, this is our term, so from the idea of a cocktail. So they are the people for whom it's about mixing different patterns, different colours, different textures, different cultural influences. So within that section you might have someone like Lisa Followay, from Nigeria, who re-looks at printcloth, but she'll embellish it, and that was great fun, actually, because we knew that she embellished printcloth and adderay. But then, of course, the boxes arrive, we're working in lockdown, and we have conversations, and we know this is beaded. Then it arrives, you open the box and your eyes are just out on stores, because it's so heavily beaded and so beautiful. And when you've got a number of these rich works together in the say-like, the mixologist, and when you put them together, how are you getting them to... Cos it feels so visually coherent, as well as an exhibition. And you've got these very rich things that sit one adjacent to another, but they don't feel kind of... It doesn't feel like they kind of are in any way clashing. And how did you manage to get those balances? And what were the responses of the living makers to knowing that their work would be in these contexts? I mean, I think, for me, this idea of how did we decide and the fact that it all works together, I think that there is this, and it's a Stuart Hall quote, principled clash of print and pattern. And I think this idea of the principled clash. So it was very much a case of looking at the garments as they came in, lining them up and seeing how they worked, which ordering them initially just on the hanger, and then on the mannequins and in the space, and moving them around with our wonderful tech team, so to say, you know, move this one here, move that one there. But in terms of the mannequins, so we have four different skin tone representations, four different hair texture representations. So the decision on which mannequin should be used for each garment, we were really guided by the fashion photography of the creatives. I think that's the mixologist section up on the screen there. So we were guided primarily by fashion photography, but then literally just looking as a team and seeing what would work best, what makes that garment sing, what makes that group feel coherent. That's really how it was done. And I think that the exhibition that does have colour within it, but I think it's an elegant use of colour and an unusual use of colour, and that was really important to us. This is the Afrotopia section, which is the biggest section. And most of the designers, if not all the designers here, they use their fashions to comment either on a personal issue or a political issue, whether it's to do with gender, to do with non-binary identities, sexuality, you can see in that slide. So very much guided by the pieces themselves. And then I think it was going to work. It was going to work. Some of that being contentious, there have been any ramifications from some of these choices. From the creatives? Well, either the creatives or... because particularly some of that work in the political context of the local environments in which they were made, some of that work has been seen as being contentious. I'm just wondering if there have been any pushback on those places. It's interesting because I don't think we have had pushback. And I think it's because, yes, we look at gender, yes, we look at spirituality, but it's done through the voices of the creatives themselves. So we have powerful works like Stephen Tyre's What If, a collage series with some of you may have seen, and if it comes up, I'll point it out. But I think because these issues are being explored through the hands, through the voices of the designers and makers, we've managed to say quite a lot through the exhibition. Oh, here is Stephen Tyre's What If series. So his What If series kind of came to the fore during lockdown where he started to have conversations online in Nigeria with self-professed drag artists. And in a sense, it's not really what you want to be doing in Nigeria, politically. But I think, and this is why, of course, the faces are obscured. So if you've not seen this work and if you're able to see it visually arresting, really powerful, but mindful of the political situation in Nigeria for those people and any repercussions that they may have, but it was important to allow the artists to really dictate the words that they wanted to be in the show. So each creative did give us a... We invited them to give us their short list of what they felt represented their practice. And in some instances, the artists, the creatives, decided to make their own new pieces. So at the top of the stairs, the contemporary floor opens with... We describe it as a commission, but really it was artsy. If Rastron Maze on Artsy, when we presented the idea of the show, he just said, I am going to make a new piece. And we said, I said, no, no, you don't need some fine. We can choose from your archive. He said, no, I'm going to make a new piece. I want to respond to the fact that you're showing African fashions here in London. And so his dialogue between cultures came from him and it was born through his immediate reaction to what we were trying to do and the fact that we were giving a platform to African creatives at the V&A in London. So there were some wonderful moments like that, but it's really paid off, I think, to respectfully pass the mic to the creatives and to really have the nerve to just go with what they wanted to do. And I think that's how we've managed to sensitively look at things like gender, look at issues like spirituality, look at women's empowerment and the invisibility of black women in received histories. So that was really how we've done it by allowing the artists, the creatives to speak. And it feels very much like a celebration of discreet talent, which I think is really wonderful. But now going forward for the V&A as an institution, that this is fantastic as a kind of an exhibition. How do we build upon this so that it actually changes collection, it changes future programme, that it changes curatorial ambition? How do we actually build upon this? I think one of the wonderful things about the show is that it's allowed us to acquire around 100 pieces for our collection. I know for some people's ears the word acquire will make them all go like this, but it means that these 100 pieces will be in our archives after the tool, the exhibition tool. It means that in 10 years' time people can research from it, in 20 years' time, in 50 years' time. So it's building up a legacy through the collection. It also means that these pieces can be put into other exhibitions that may come up or use for other projects around the V&A, which is actually really positive. The other thing that we're doing, we really feel that with everyone that's either physically in the show or people that we've spoken to along the way, we see that as building a foundation, building a network, building relationships. So the conversations will continue. And there are certain people that aren't in the show and yet we're continuing to collect, we're continuing to visit people virtually in their studios to talk about their work. So that process will keep going. And so one hopes that the collection, in terms of the responses from audiences, from the wider V&A, what has that been like? And from the artists and from the makers? I think for the team it was wonderful to see. I think we had maybe 10 of the artists that were in the show came for that opening week. And it was wonderful seeing people's reactions because you want people to feel happy with the way they're being presented. And people were moved. So people, when they see the mannequins for the first time, and this includes the artists in the show, were moved. So there have been lots of tears. It was kind of a soggy opening week in some ways because people were physically moved at seeing their work, at seeing the mannequins. People had to take a moment to themselves. I remember the artists that created a dialogue between cultures. We didn't tell him that his piece would be the piece that opens the contemporary floor and that you'd see it from the bottom of the stairs, you'd be able to look up and see it. And I just remember he just put his hand to his mouth. He sort of turned and saw his work and was just stunned. And so it's been overwhelmingly positive because people see themselves. You know, I was talking to one of our security guards who's Nigerian and this was just yesterday and he shared with me that he actually rang his family in Nigeria from inside the show and said, you know, he could see himself. And he was talking about the mannequins. He was also excited about the burner boy outfit. But for someone to actually pick up the phone, you know, to phone someone at home saying, you know, this is happening, look, this is happening, it's wonderful. So we have lots of stories like that. You know, I've had people, because I do go in and we all go in and just hang out and see who's in there. And I remember on the first day, a gentleman just came and shook my hand. I was walking around with a lender, so I think he realised I'd worked on the project and he just came and shook my hand. So I think it's been overwhelmingly positive, which is why we have to keep going. I feel there's no turning back now. And I think I'd love it if in future exhibitions of any kind that African creativity, African talent, African genius, is included within it, that's really, I think, the dream of the team as well, the sense that we cannot go back. You know, we have to keep moving forward. And what does the team look like and how does it interface Africa or all the global south? I mean, how do we, how is it as we go forward that we can make sure that this incredible investment in telling the story of Africa fashion becomes something which means that the V&A is changed forever? I think as a small, a very small core team on the project, we're sort of in the midst of creating the events programme. But whilst we do that, for example, if you go onto our website, there are many blog posts, films that have been created by the team that explain more about the process of making the exhibition, for example, that talk about the process of developing the mannequins from scratch, for example, that show the work of some of the 20th century designers that up until this point very little have been written about. And I say that not to pat ourselves on the back, but just to show the potential. The V&A, we have a voice and a platform, but it's how are we going to use that, how are we going to use that wisely and respectfully, and for us it looks like passing the mic. So I think that what I hope is that as we share the process, as well as the work, as well as the content, that we're able to impact the people around us in the way that they think, so that if you start any exhibition, you'll think about the broader we that goes beyond the global north, that goes beyond a white anglo-saxon man, it's few, you know, that's our hope. And then the other thing that I'm involved in, as well as Africa Fashion and our core team, and my department, which is PFTF, but it's fashion textiles, really. We sort of regularly PFTF performance, furniture, textiles fashion. OK. I think that as a department, there is a lot of support for the learning and an openness to speak to the core Africa Fashion team about our process. So already we're starting to disseminate the things that we've learned, things that we would do differently, new ways of working that perhaps can impact new projects. And that's felt really important to be able to disseminate that, whether it's in our departmental meetings, whether it's a lunchtime lecture, whether it's a casual chat, but to keep sharing what we've done and how we've done it. Not because we think we've got everything right, but more because we recognise the importance of giving real space and time to African creativity. And we want other people to almost catch that, that spirit, catch that fire that we have for it. And so dissemination through the website, through speaking to people through meetings, we have the Africa Fashion Conference coming up, the weekend of the 18th and 19th, and that gives us an opportunity to drill more deeply into certain themes, whether that's a whole panel that will, a whole afternoon that will look at representation. Is it still possible to... It's still possible. Very nice segue, thank you. So it's still possible to attend to tickets are now available, so you can join us either online or in person, and that's November the 18th and 19th. And it's a really wonderful, rich line-up of practitioners, scholars, creatives, like Adebayo from Orange Culture, our keynote is Sunny Dolat from the Nes Collective, who was our researcher on the continent, so it's a wonderful mixture of people. There's a history and memory section, so it's everyday objects as well as museum artefacts, and thinking about how we tell stories from those objects. So it's a really, really rich programme. So I see that our work is ongoing. The other thing I should share as well is that we now also have a team of... We always did have Africa-focused curators, but we have a new team of Africa and diaspora curators and assistant curator that have joined us. And again, this is really, us as an institution, showing our commitment to this topic of celebrating, consciously celebrating African creativity, and that word consciously is increasingly important to me, because it's about the respect that we've tried to show through this project and how we can continue that. This is my last question before I open it up. So if you have a question, please do begin to get ready to put your hand up. But Christine, in terms of how we give back, it's not just the kind of communities in Britain which you seem like you're doing absolutely brilliantly, building a resource that I think is going to really be of use for many generations, but how do we make sure that some of this actually is given back to Africa? I mean, are there plans to tour? Are there partnerships? Are there ways in which we are engaging on the continent or might do? I mean, the conversations are ongoing, and I think as a team, we would love it if there were versions of Africa fashion on the continent. At the moment we're having... I'm a research fellow at the University of Johannesburg, as Polly mentioned, so we're in conversations with them about how we might try to, at the very least, stream the conference and have comments and conversations with the teams there. So it's something that we hope to do and we're still fine-tuning the tool venues, and I'm ever hopeful that we'll be able to have some kind of iteration of Africa fashion on the continent. I would love it, and I think one reads the panels and it will be fascinating to see what a take of West African or East African or South African... All those different ways of viewing the narratives that you have really begun to force us and that we embrace actually kind of you in doing so, but it's just wonderful to have that here in London, but I would absolutely adore to see it on the continent as well. But to open up, have we got mics? Would we have a roving mic? Yeah, great, thanks. Could you say your name before you ask the question, please? Hello. I'm Dudu Zile Charza, and I'm a student here. I'm a postgraduate researcher at... Let's hear it, so ask. So I had some questions I wanted to ask as you were talking, but it was so seamless and flowed so well, it seemed really to interrupt. But one of the questions I have is kind of two that are rather related, and it's firstly is whether any creatives with whom you couldn't work on this particular exhibition, and if so, do you have plans? So it kind of leads on from what you were saying, plans to maybe include them in future shows elsewhere. And also, were there any countries whose fashion work was not represented that you regret not having been able to include in the exhibition? Brilliant, thank you. I think I might start with a response to the last part of the question. I think the minimalist section is a section that we would have loved there to be more in, and so I think it's a section that we will be looking at, those designers that create those architectural looks. So that's something I think that ongoing we would want to address, because it felt for me a little bit out of culture that wasn't enough in that section. I think there were one or two designers that we would have liked to have included, but we perhaps weren't able to strike up a conversation with, but now that the exhibition is open, we hope that that is now possible, because they can see the way in which the show's been curated, and perhaps we're a bit more on their radar, because not everybody knows of the V&A. So there are one or two, one of the designers that we would have loved to have included, someone like Omusee, for example, but we just simply could not get in touch with her, and try as we might, we just couldn't, are past somehow didn't cross. So there are one or two names like that that I would love it, and should really be part of our collection, because they're iconic, important, impactful designers. And then in terms of the countries, through Sunnydellat's film, which shows one fashion ensemble from all of the 54 countries, so in a way, there's a reference to 54 countries, I won't say all, because there's always a debate about how many countries there are, but 54 countries that kind of represented in some form or other, so not every country has an ensemble, but there is a reference, and that was something we really wanted to do. Thanks, Arif Zaman, from Bloomsbury Institute, just next door. One of the most talked about moments in Kigali in June at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting was a fashion event organised by the Rwanda Government, and it was talked about in many different ways, but one of the ways it was also talked about was in the Women's Forum there, there was an outcome agreement around the addressing the under-representation of women who work in the creative industries across the Commonwealth. So my question is really picking up on, I know there's an industry session in your conference and I've just signed up for that now, but this question around, your last question actually, around where next, and how the industry, fashion industries can be better supported and connected between the UK and Africa, with a particular reference point, it's the obvious one, but it's one that I think perhaps is clearly the key, which is the diaspora. But it's not just the diaspora, but it's the diaspora now in terms of the changing diaspora, second, third generation, the impact of technology, the influence of sustainability, et cetera. So where do you see yourself and this exhibition playing a role within that momentum and that moment? I think that the exhibition somehow is bringing the continent and the diaspora together. I know that our focus within the exhibition is creativity from the continent, but I think the response from the diaspora is such that it's kind of bringing the two together. So it's almost like it galvanises the moment we're in, and I don't want to advertise somebody else's conference, however. One of the things that I find brilliant about this moment in fashion, FACE is an organisation for fashion educators of colour, and they have a conference this week, and it's extraordinary. As someone who's worked in industry for over 30 years and often been the only person of colour, I mean, I think, virtual of the companies I work for, and when I graduated, I was one of, I think, two designers of colour that graduated 30-odd years ago. To now be part of this FACE conference, I look at the line-up of speakers and they're telling me that they're busing fashion students. They've organised coach loads of fashion students to come to London, to come to Central St Martin's, to hear from speaker of colour after speaker of colour who are working in industry, who are teaching designers. Today is extraordinary, and Africa fashion will feature, because we've got the keynote slot, which is why I say, actually, it's kind of bringing people together. It's galvanising the moment somehow, and it's giving people this kind of focal point. But for me, personally, I know that there's much work to be done, but to have two days' worth of fashion educators of colour and busloads of fashion students, that's the future of the fashion industry. So it makes my heart sing, because I feel, well, look at the potential. I mean, that would have been unheard of 30 years ago. So that's the role, I think, that the exhibition is performing at the moment. We have, at BNA East, recently working with Frees, advertised for a number of new curatorial roles, and we have stressed that we would want these roles to be filled by people of colour. The first job went out, and it had an unprecedented 350 applications, and this is in a period in which there, if you think about the ambient job market, I mean, for the BNA, that was pretty much unprecedented. The shift, it hasn't happened as quickly as I would like, but at the moment, the burgeoning kind of pressure on institutions to change is actually being matched by what I think is an ambient supply of incredible talent, and I do get a sense that in a handful of years that our institutions would look very different, both in terms of what programme, but also in terms of the younger generations of people that they employ. It is a really great time to be involved in museums, to watch institutions that are, in many instances, hundreds of years old, changing really very, very quickly. It's fascinating to watch, and very, very heartening. So there's two questions. Thanks. Great exhibition. I took two friends about two weeks ago. They were visiting from Sierra Leone. The Sierra Leonean posse is here, by the way. One of them was harassing me about why didn't you include a costume from Sierra Leone which tells a lot of the history, right? In fact, I made a note of what you said, history through fashion and textiles, I think Christine said. I curated a small exhibition at the Museum of London. I'm not a curator, maybe now I can call myself a semi curator. It was at the Museum of London, and Margaret went to it. She's your sister, right? She is my sister. The central piece there was a mannequin of a fashion, just one. They had to wrap it with cloth to get to my colour. A lot of these mannequins are all jet black and look so horrible. I was quite impressed with the ones there. One of my questions is, did you do any engagement, because a lot of museums are now into community engagement and trying to get people in the museum, but they'd only go if there's something they're interested in. Did you do any kind of consultation with community consultation to see what they thought? As I said, I have to tell my friend that you're probably going to do something another time and maybe you'll get more designers from Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone, absolutely. Yes, so we did. We had various forms of consultation all the way through. It was everything from the youth co-design group. We had a group of, I think it was 12 to 14, 16 to 24-year-old creatives who self-identified as being of African heritage. We had them in as a critical voice, but also as curators we wanted to give an opportunity for young people to experience what it's like to put on an exhibition. The process of speaking with us, sharing ideas, was really important. One of the brilliant outcomes is they have curated, and I'm going to use that word, they have curated Wash Day. So this is coming up on the 15th of October. They have a stellar line-up of speakers, everyone from Charlotte Mensa to Afua Hirsh, but it's been instigated and created by this youth group, obviously with our learning departments, guidance and support. The other thing that's lovely is that one of the people, one of the young people that was part of the group that we chatted to, then they had the opportunity to think about what they wanted to produce, they decided to produce Wash Day. But this wonderful young lady, she came to fashion in motion with Tebe McGugor on Friday, and she said, I can't believe that I'm at a real fashion show. I've put it into the exhibition and here I am at a real fashion show. This is what I want to do. And that's kind of what you're saying, that's what it's about. The other era of consultations, that was the youth group. We also had a community panel of, it was around 25 people, and this was intergenerational. And they were very critical, which was great, or you'd need that. But one of the things that came out of that process, that group, was the forward that you see in the exhibition. And one of the points that kept coming up with whoever we consulted with, there was the pleasant surprise about our approach to the show, the fact that it's corners of the continent, it's abundance and so on and so on. So pleasant surprise, and then also pleasant surprise about the broader plans of the museum to consciously celebrate African creativity and to redress the balance. And within the community group, we were also looking at gallery texts with them, within the community group, they kind of said, why can't you have a forward like you would in a book? Why can't you tell people the way that you're working? Why can't you tell people that it's centering African voices and do it through a forward? So that forward that you see in the exhibition came directly from the community panel's suggestion. So both experience is really interesting and really helpful and vibrant. And then I think maybe the last group that I want to mention is our Global Narratives Network. And so this is the internal staff group of people of colour who we consulted with over the choices, the final choices of mannequin colour, the final choices of hairstyles and hair textures. So they were wonderful, critical friends along the way also. So there was a lot of consultation but with different people at different times. That was a question. Yeah, thank you very much for your interesting, fascinating discussion and also for the fascinating exhibition which I've actually already seen twice. I wanted to ask how you came up with the title, Africa Fashion and the discussion that went with that. We landed on Africa Fashion rather than African Fashion because we wanted to have something that's open-ended enough to allow all of the tensions to be in play, to allow for all the contradictions to be there. Rather than closing it down, Africans somehow closes it down and all those stereotypes come into play whereas the show is about breaking apart those stereotypes. So the open-ended Africa really felt like the best way to do that. Hi, and I'd just like to thank you so much for celebrating Africa and African Fashion and highlighting in particular the engagement of the security guard with the fashion show because I think one of the things that we can all do sometimes is forget that things like this are important to all of our people. And in relation to that, Cyrillian's in the house, Garner's in the house. Garner and Cyrillian. But also I have a connection with Cyrillian as they know. My family origin is from Garner. Whenever there's a funeral or a wedding or a christening or a naming ceremony, we make clothes. Those clothes are made by ordinary, everyday women and men sometimes here and sometimes in Garner. I've just come from Garner and came back with two or three outfits made because it's cheaper to do it there than here. And so it's wonderful that the exhibition celebrates all of the name designers. I'm wondering how the story of the unnamed designers who are working maybe in their council flat in Peckham or in a stall or a shack in various parts of Africa, how they're told because they make some wonderful designs. And you can actually often go in and just say, I want it to look a bit like this, this, this and that. And anyone who's from Africa will know that here. So I just wondered whether this exhibition talks about and celebrates their contribution to the world of fashion. And then my other question is how the fashion of the diversity of Africa, particularly in terms of age and size, because my mum, who is going to be 19 next year, just has something made when she was in Africa and every time she goes, she comes back with something and she can rock. So how do we celebrate fashion across the ages? And by that, I mean from the smallest to the tallest and the eldest. Thank you. But I do think this is what the V&A is for, that it is a toolbox, it was created, crafted, instituted as an institution that wasn't just meant to go and look at beautiful things. It wasn't just meant to be a space in which one would have learned people who looked after incredible collections. It was meant to be a collection that was used, that was deployed to transform people's professional lives. And if you look back at the original sorts of plans for the V&A, it's the first museum to have gas lighting so that people could come after work and see exhibition. It's the first museum to have an open access library so that people who weren't scholars could come in and use its resources. And those things, that tradition continues and that I've been, I think, blessed with the opportunity to craft a new national museum. And the V&A has chosen to dedicate its resource to doing so in one of the areas of London which does not traditionally have access to national museums and collections, and we are creating a brand-new collection centre, 280,000 objects, which tell the story of human creativity across 5,000 years. These will be accessible to everyone in East London. This isn't about privileging people with PhDs or MAs. This is about everyone having access, and the kind of access will be not traditional access. This is about giving school kids the chance to come in and touch these amazing things. And what we hope is that this will do the very thing that I think you hope will happen, is that it will transform opportunity of young people that this will be a way of investing in the Ynchoshawn Abarys and the Alexander McQueen's of tomorrow, is giving them access to really great things. And so Christine's exhibition, this amazing exhibition, is part of a whole kind of portfolio of effort to try to change the relationship between the institution and its publics, to try to engage with ways in which we can create really dynamic relationships with the next generation of creatives. And I think the way to do that is by inspiring them with contact with amazing things. And I think that's what this exhibition does. I think that is the way in which I first encountered the sorts of things that made me want to work in museums, was entering them, not always feeling incredibly welcome, but seeing amazing things and thinking, I want to be a part of this. But we want to make that even easier. And what I love about this exhibition is that it is so beautiful in the way in which it's crafted, that if this is the first exhibition you've ever been to, if this is an unusual thing for you to do, I think this will be something that you will... I think this will be something that will make you want to come again. It's a fantastic exhibition, so full of kind of craft and love, so full of really kind of detailed research. But the quality of the work, if anything is going to inspire another generation, it is having contact with this sort of quality of work. So I think as an institution, this is one of the things that we do really well. And I think on the back of what you're saying, Gus, and I will come to your point as well, I think the actual act of making a life is creative. Life is a creative act. So yes, the B&A is there to inspire the new generations of professional creatives, I'll put it in that way. But also I think if we can just lift people up a little bit, inspire people a little bit, just putting that into the creation of everyday life, then I think it's valid, it's worthwhile. More than that actually, I think it's more than worthwhile, I think it's vital. So we're all here for a short amount of time, so let's be inspired and live our lives, bringing our big, beautiful, integrated selves to our creative selves to everyday life. I think on the point of the unnamed dressmakers and tailors, absolutely they're in the show. So I'm going to encourage you to go again to the show if you haven't been, and encourage you to go, yeah, because you can't have an exhibition about the African fashion scene without having made-to-order, bespoke. Co-creation is the section in our show. And downstairs there's a historic piece that was made in 1966. We don't know who made it, but we know it was worn to an event where President Sengor was, so it's in that moment of independence. And it is absolutely beautiful, and it's exquisite. And it's there as a marker for all of those, that history, that long history of fashion that comes through the hands of the corner tailor and the corner dressmaker. So it's absolutely there. Lily, so I work in fashion, and thank you both for the incredible conversation and congratulations, Christine, on this incredible exhibition. I sort of have a showroom, an agency, and I've actually signed up one of your clients, one of the exhibitors called Christy Brown. And she's an incredible talent, we've been in conversation for three years, and it felt this is the time. And I just want to know from you, because you've said it so beautifully throughout, obviously, but in the showroom environment, I sort of created a space whereby I want international representation. So it's African, whether you're Middle Eastern, American, and I want to show the world that you can have all these in one space, and it makes sense. On a sort of, it's here from you, so I have probably, you know, the fashion director, the buyer, coming through to see Christy Brown. And I probably have, you know, 10, maybe half an hour at best to sort of talk them through, you know, her creations, but also the background and why we're doing it. So I want to hear from you fundamentally what is the really, what message you feel having spent all this time with, or all these great creatives that I should try and portray in that instance when I know I have a really small window of their time? I think for me, just thinking about my industry life as well, the work in the show is just brilliant. It's just brilliant fashion, it's great fashion, but it's also a lot of it, someone like Christy Brown. Yes, it's fabulously creative. It's also really wearable and it's also distinctive. So those are the things that I would be saying to my buyers if they were coming in. I would literally just be going, look, how can you resist this? This is amazing. And it can sell in this market, because that's really what the buyer is looking for. They want something that's different. They want something that's well made. They want it at the right price and they want it to turn up. And an organisation like Christy Brown can do all of that. So that's what I would be pushing. And I think that it was really important in the show to get across the idea of luxurious fashions from the continent. You know, yes, we have the unknown dressmakers, but for those buyers that are looking for professional, stellar, creative fashions that will turn up when you order it, the designers in the show are kind of doing that. So that's what I would be saying to a buyer. Look at this amazing work. Hi. I keep reframing and refraising what I'm going to say to you in my head because I've been activated by different things that different people are saying. So I'm going to make an observation first of all and then we'll ask my question. I was 10 minutes late, so you may have addressed some of this, but I'm curious as to the role and impetus of COVID and the Black Lives Matters movement has had on the exhibition. I'll explain why. Because during COVID, I know which most of us about our lives online and a significant part, and also what we didn't have access to, our hair stylist, our hair grease. And all of a sudden, we had to get incredibly creative to look good in these Zoom meetings. And so part of that was getting the headwraps out, looking at the YouTube tutorials and so on. And why I'm saying that, I mean, we all recognise it hence a laughter, but what that did was make us re-engage and I think reassess our relationship with fashion and how we self-identify. And people who may be in real life would never have gone to a meeting with a headwrap on, was put in a headwrap on or having a natural hair out. And looking, you know, all these designers, you know, unknown, was popping up on Instagram and you could buy things directly. So there was clearly shifts and transformations taking place during the last two and a half years. So you had a receptivity amongst us to African designs and so on. Because there's so many, and my parents are from Jamaica, my mum was a seamstress on the side and was very, very good. So yes, so I think I'm just cute. And also the fact that you have Althea McNish's exhibition that was a William Morris gallery, you had Hugh Locke and Possession. You had, in the Black, Fantastic and Yours. So, I mean, fair enough, there's some synergy in relation to that. I'm just curious as to the role of the Black Lives Matter's post-hest, George Floyd's murder, COVID, us being in this, having more access to each other digitally. You know, all of a sudden that continent was around our corner. And so we've landed with greater expectations, I think. And that also feeds into the question about sustainability. Great that the VNA is doing this. And in response to what you were saying, the fact that I then, what you said, you basically said an exhibition. So it's like going to your local museum and saying, I think you should put this on and I'd be happy to co-curate it. Just for example, rather than expecting everything from the VNA. Yes, so that's my statement question observation for you. And I'm just curious as to the impetus for this and what all these different developments are saying to you about where we are and what needs to happen. So the impetus for Africa fashion really comes from the fact that African creatives are making such a global impact. You know, the Kenneth Isers, the Christie Browns. And so as a team of curators, as a team of fashion professionals, we were watching that. So we were aware of the impact of the African fashion scene on global fashion. So the idea was born maybe three years ago. My role was created at the start, literally I was off to the job in January 2020. And most exhibitions can take anything between three and five years to put on. So it's important to share that timeline and that motivation for doing the show. And also to go back to some of the legacy of the show that we were highlighting earlier. Because for me, I don't and didn't see this project as a knee jerk reaction to that dreadful murder of George Floyd. I think that perhaps there's more openness to our approach because of the moment that we're in. But again, I often feel it's not really an extraordinary moment because look at all of the other people before George Floyd and look at all of the many, many people that were decolonising and that's an inverted commas way, way before this moment. Look at the work of Alfie McNeish, working for Liberty in the 50s. Look at scholars like Joan Anemado setting up the Caribbean Centre at Goldsmiths nearly 30 years ago and creating the amazing Caribbean studies and diaspora studies and I'm sure there are many, many other names. So that was always happening and people have been working away often on their own feeling like they were the only person that was doing this and following their passion. And I think that what lockdown, digital platforms, the dreadful happenings of the summer of 2020 has somehow brought everyone together and it almost takes me back to those busloads of students. We know who's doing what where now or we have a sense of being part of a bigger black creative community, being part of a bigger black creative community and allies put it that way and I think that that's really empowering. So I can see that some really positive things came out of that moment of lockdown and that summer that we had. But I think that the things that remain will be the projects, the initiatives that have been, that were started before, that have had many, that have been years in the making even at the V&A. You have the Janet Browns, the Nicholas in the Stilianus, Carol Tullock that 20, 30 years ago, those seeds were planted, you know? And so I think that that's, those are the sustainable strategies and projects, that's what feeds into, you know, the possibility that is V&A. It's because it's been years and years and years in the making of key people pushing for these things. And maybe that summer gave us another little impetus. But I think that the things that will remain are those things that were planted years ago. It's the last couple of questions now. Hi. I'm Mick Finch from CSM, but not Fashion Department. I must add quickly from the Art Department. It's just a quick question about, because it's a wonderful exhibition. One of the things that threads through it is, it's known as Wax or Kanga. And the iconography of it and the text, the way text works is quite extraordinary. Could you just say a bit about it? Because it's quite intriguing, I found. Thank you. So this idea of the power of textiles, really, and I think you're right, it's present on the ground floor, where we have that section that looks at the politics and politics of cloth, and there's wax resist, there's kente, there's ad-array, there's kanga. So with often slogans literally written on, a cloth in the case of the kanga, or the commemorative cloth, the ANC Mandela cloth, something literally written on, or woven into the pattern of the fabric and the use of colour and the rhythm within that, and what that means, the wonderful kente, the family kente cloth that was shared with us through the call-out that was brought, the wearer, Gladys the Shanty, knew that she was expecting her first child and knew that she was coming to London to start a new life, so she bought that particular pattern to wear at the christening of her first child, because the pattern, it's around the hope and ambition for wealth in the future. But you also see it upstairs, interestingly, and it's not there, this is where I, it would be wonderful if I looked and there it was, but I think you see that that tradition almost repurposed upstairs in the hirmy, I'm looking at Elizabeth, the hirmy sweatshirt and the seamy wrapper, so you get a kind of contemporary version of that literal writing of a slogan or a message on a garment, which I find really intriguing. So it's something, you know, I think it's Sonia Clarth that said cloth is to Africans what monuments are to Westerners, so I think that there is this appreciation of the power of cloth to speak whether it's literally through a slogan, or it's through a pattern and a rhythm in a cloth, or it's just the way that something is worn, and I think that that is something that is common across all cultures, actually, this understanding of the way that fashion speaks, but I think that there is something particular about Africa and its diaspora where we haven't forgotten that. I think many cultures have forgotten the power of fashion to speak, but I think for those of us of African heritage, that remains. There's an understanding of the way that cloth moves on the body, the way that a good garment, if it's nicely cut, was my lady with the maid to order, a nicely cut garment that's bespoke, it's made for you, it's absolutely like a second skin, and there's an appreciation of textiles, not just the pattern, but the feel on the body, the movement, how a fabric moves when the body's in motion, and I feel that we haven't lost that. So it's not something that's peculiar to Africa and its diaspora, but it's something that perhaps we haven't lost. And then also, I think, sometimes it's very easy to fall into the trap of assuming that all African fashions have a message. Well, they don't. Some people just want to make beautiful clothes, and that's fine. It's not always a story or a commentary on race, for example. Sometimes it really is just fabulous clothes, fabulous patterns together, so it can be read in many ways. One last question. Kate. Thank you. I've seen the show a couple of times, and it's absolutely fabulous, and I'm of an age where it covers the span of my life. At the beginning, I was a kid, and the final blast is where I am now, and it's kind of continuing to go forward. So thank you for that part. I loved the openness of the exhibition to People's Lives because the provenance of many things are from People's Closets, and they're going back to those people, presumably, and not, you know. But the two things I wanted to say is that I also fully appreciated and maybe we want to emphasize and celebrate the everyday dandyism of African men and men in the diaspora where they could wear things that are clearly outrageous and get away with it. It's just brilliant. So I really think we need to spread dandyism more. We need more decorative men. We don't really have quite enough of them. I think we need more. And then the one final thing is to ask because the jewelry section was a kind of teeny. I really liked it and the salt necklace. I mean, those things, I mean, I wanted to just lick the glass of all of those things, and you are wearing fabulous earrings. So what I want to know is when are we getting a show that also celebrates jewelry and bodily adornment of different kinds as well as of fabric? So those are my comments. That's my question. Thank you very much. Thank you. That's fantastic. And you know, all I'll say on the adornment is kind of watch this space. Who knows? Never say never. Watch this space on that. And yes, I'm all for this idea of dandyism, particularly when originally dandyism was about having real discernment in the way that you dressed and also the idea of gesture. More of that is wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was just wonderful. And thank you, Polly, for inviting us. No, thank you so much. Thank you all for coming. And can I just also just say a thank you to someone who's not here, but who, without whom, we probably wouldn't be here either, which is John Picton, who's done so much over so many years for us. Yeah, here, here. Christine and Gus, thank you so much. It's been an incredibly open and inspiring and just a phenomenal conversation. Thank you so much. I think we've really got a sense of the impact of the exhibition, which I think will go on for many years to come, but also so many inspiring questions around what cloth can do and the power of cloth. I love this idea of it being a temporary freedom that you can wear for a moment. That's such a wonderful idea. I think there's a lot of questions that you've raised that I hope we will return to throughout this series, but certainly that we will hopefully look out with different artists throughout the course of this series. So just a huge thank you, really, for coming and sharing with us so openly. And congratulations. I think we're talking about the sea change and this incredible shift in the cultural landscape, but it's worth pointing out that this is happening because of the hard work that you have put in. So this has just sort of happened by accident. It's happened because of your many years of hard work, both of you. Anyway, thank you all for coming and please do join us outside. We can continue this conversation over a glass of wine in the foyer. So thank you.