 Well, good morning everyone. This is the Vermont House Committee on Commerce and Economic Development. We just finished our break. We're back to have some discussions with some of our business people in the minority world that we want to try to see what we can do to provide some support for them. We have a number of people with us and I think we have a number of people that are having some internet stability problems this morning, which is understandable. We all got kicked off of Zoom and the internet yesterday morning for some reason. We're still not sure why. So I think Charles, we have you up first. If you would like to, we'd like to just, I think have a discussion with all of you trying to understand what can we do to support your efforts and to support the BIPOC business community. I know that when last year, when the grants went out, we had provided a separate amount of money for women-owned and minority-owned businesses, but I think it was very difficult for the agency to understand just how many businesses we have out there that are minority-owned. We were thinking that we may need to try to assist you in providing maybe some financial support into one of your organizations that can help bring everything together and actually help you access what is out there that the state provides and other organizations around the state provide for the business community. So if we'd like to hear from you what your thoughts are, how we might be able to do that, is it needed? And if it is, then how can we help you do that? So good morning and thank you all for coming. We appreciate your time. Good morning and thank you for having us. I just wanted to maybe start off by just getting a better sense of what the bill, the proposed bill is just so that at least we have a better sense of what it is that we're commenting against because this is my first time sort of being engaged in all of this and I'm not sure exactly what it is that you're looking for so that I can give you guys at least a better sense of what it is that I would like to get out of this. Well I think we're trying to understand, trying to help the minority community, business community better access all the different programs that the state provides and that our regional development corporations provide for the business community along with there's SBA and SBDC and lots of other different areas that people can find technical support, also with money support, that type of thing. And we want to make sure that I think we found during the last COVID relief dollars that were put out that the state didn't really know how many minority owned businesses we actually have. And I think that was that because of the unknown, it was hard to get the money out to everyone. And so I think we're asking you what do you need and are you having trouble or people having trouble accessing the state, number one? Our thoughts are that we can provide some grant dollars to an organization that could hire someone that could work with the community, the BIPOC community, business community. And where do you go for technical assistance? Where can you go to get some loans, that type of thing and help people work their way around government. So that's kind of what we're thinking of, but we're not sure if we're on the right track or not. Hey, Tino, maybe I can jump in real quick if you want. I can break the ice. Okay. Thank you, everyone. My name is Emiliano Void. I'm a Burlington resident. I've been in Vermont for about five years, six years now. I put together this project called the Black Financial Alliance which aim to bring together the black community from an entrepreneurial standpoint, service a professional standpoint as well as black focused organizations. So really trying to create this kind of centralized representation for the community across the board. I'm in favor of the bill that's being proposed, not only to provide BIPOC on businesses with technical assistance, financial literacy, digital literacy, as well as marketing, but also to promote state and federal contract bid opportunities for BIPOC on businesses and to provide training to business for technical assistance providers and reduce bias and service delivery. I don't claim to speak for my community as a whole, but certainly I have been fortunate enough to be involved with some community leaders and some organizing work in Burlington in particular and some of Vermont in a greater capacity. I think something that's interesting is regardless of the efforts being put forward by the states, the effectiveness of the way that these funds are making their way into the black community or at least the BIPOC community, and I can only speak from my lived experience. I think it has proven to be not as effective as necessary. I think if you contrast and just suppose the efforts that were put forward to create and provide financial support for the female-owned businesses, I think the take rate for that was considerably higher, considerably greater than what happened on the BIPOC side of the fence, which leads me to believe it's not a question of the efforts, it's a question of the vehicle that you folks are using to get the information and access to capital into the communities. So from that capacity, when I look at something like this, if there's not a clear, different approach on how we can get the dollars to the people that need them, I think that there's an opportunity for this to fall flat again to some extent. So as much as I'm in support of this bill, I would encourage everybody that's here to proactively find creative solutions in order for us to create clear paths from getting access to the state or access to the funding that the state is providing, whether it's from a technical standpoint, a literacy standpoint or a financial standpoint, and find the right vehicle to drive that into the community. I am involved in some conversations and some communications with community leaders pretty much across the board in Burlington, and it's only through those very specific channels that me, myself, I had heard about this funding, this round that's coming through as well. So if it's not coming from me, at least from my lived experience, if it's not coming from other people that are in the know that things like this are happening, the message is very clearly not getting across to the community as a whole. And I think that's a direct reflection of the tape rate of the funding that was provided from the prior round of funding that was solicited by the state. So I would encourage, again, I think the efforts are good. I think they're very much needed. But I think the vehicle or the channels that you folks are using in order to get this further into the black community and the BIPOC community, I guess, have not proven effective thus far. And if we're going to put together an effort like this and something sizable of this nature, I think it's critically important that the channels that we use to actually execute are accurate and are effective. So that is my two cents on it. And I guess I'll take a pause to take a breath. Okay, I'd like to follow up on that. I completely agree. Oh, sorry, my name is Weiwei Wang. I'm with the Vermont Professionals of Color Network. I completely agree with what Emiliano said. I have also heard from small business owners around the state that, yes, there are grants offered, but the barriers to those grants is significant for business, small business owners who are taking care of everything. Specifically, I was talking to one business owner who, you know, she's doing everything herself, marketing, business planning, everything, and she does not have time to apply for the grants. So meaning that the application for the grant itself is a barrier. So that's another reason why, you know, not only do we not know about it, but when we do know about it, even taking the time to apply for it, because I am not sure exactly what questions are being asked, but there are specific, you know, needs that the grants have in order for the business person to receive the grant, right? And so that becomes a barrier as well. So there are several hoops that people have to jump through in order to actually get to the money. Charlie? Great. Can I chime in? I think Representative Kimball has a question, Curtis, and okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And Emiliano and Weiwei, thank you. I'm curious because we really want to understand the obstacles that you might have run into personally too, and looking at the things that were extended, the programs that were extended, to understand better that standing up a separate organization would help address that. So trying to get a better understanding of actual experience that you've had and how we can learn from that. So I'm hoping that when we have this discussion, you can share that because that's, for us, the most powerful in terms of real life examples. I've got this, you know, Tanya again. I've got an example just personally in my life, not really related to a business that I own, which I do own my own personal business, but just in terms of my career. Sometimes in life, you need somebody to take a chance on you and to give you that opportunity. And this is exactly what's happened when you think of a lot of big, a lot of big businesses that have formed in our community. It required somebody to actually do something or take that opportunity to take a chance on somebody. I got my break when somebody who saw the potential in me said like, hey, I want you to come and work for my organization. And then that then led to me finding my foothold in the private sector and starting to show what I was capable of. And then before you know it, you get a promotion, you start to then get other suitors coming in. And you go from being a minimum age earner to however amount of money you make. That's sort of what we want to have in the business community where either the government contracts or bids where we aren't looked at as like mom and pop shops, but somebody then says like, hey, you know what? You've got the potential to become an SD Island because the little work you're doing here, if we gave you something big, you can take it and run with it. And that's really what I think is missing right now is people actually taking a chance on some of these small businesses and giving them the opportunities to go from being a mom and pop shop to being a larger employer. Because right now the way things are the contracts, the bids, everything is still going to the same old players which are continually becoming bigger and bigger corporations in Vermont. And it's the same old people that keep benefiting from the system. Curtis. Yes. Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity. I'd like to start by addressing some of the pushback indirect and direct that I've received about the notion of positioning the ACCD as the home of technical assistance literacy and digital literacy in the state. And I believe Amy has circulated to you already is the 1991 executive order from Governor Dean. Yes. That clearly states that there ought to be and there should be a focal point within ACCD's predecessor specifically around minority owned businesses. I hope any discussion or conversation that you might have that ACCD is not the entity should be dispelled. We believe that and part of the argument that we received was oh, well, you know, we don't have folks on the ground. You know, we don't provide direct services per se. Well, that doesn't mean that you can't. And in fact, you've been instructed since 1991 to do that. So that's the the I just want to get on the record and to make sure that you have that 1991 executive order from Governor Dean. The second is there's already an example of turnkey operations to get information out to business owners. And, you know, the Vermont Commission on Women, the Center for Women and Enterprise, the Business Women's Network, which all focus on women owned businesses are turnkey operations that ACCD can say, you know, we've got this going out of the Department of Taxes can say we've got this coming out. And they turn the key and they send information out to tens of thousands of women owned businesses. When we were asked to join ACCD in the COVID economic recovery grants last year, we literally had to build the airplane as it was flying. I mean, they brought us in at the 11th hour and 59th minute, which is why it took so long for us to expend the two and a half million dollars is because we were building the plane as we as we were flying. Well, we now have an operating database of about 500 women owned businesses across the state of Vermont. Our survey that that you received last December really indicate that one, there needs to be better services that are outlined in H336. More importantly, there needs to be better data collection. And I just want to note the testimony that I sent you from Courtney Smith Wisemore of her struggle at trying to extract information from state government. Now, this is really instructive because she just arrived in Vermont last summer from LA. Small business owner brought her business to Vermont. But I asked her if she would pretend like she was a new arrival with no business to try to negotiate the system as it currently stands. And it was a nightmare of horrors collectively. Now, individually, one on ones that she had with folks in state government were great, but those individuals were not talking to each other. They don't they were not sharing information with each other. And when information was available, it was not consumer friendly. So as to disaggregate data by industry, for example, of minority owned businesses that have state contracts is not an easy was not an easy operation. So, you know, looking at this from a sort of a macro level, we need to have better data collection analysis. And it needs to be available in a consumer friendly format. You know, we've talked for a decade now about the Secretary of State putting a check off box on the application of new businesses, totally optional, if they want to indicate the race of the owners. That has yet to materialize. So the other the other piece to this is the formation or organization of of a BIPOC led organization of BIPOC business owners that would parallel that which the Center for Women Enterprise or the Business Women's Network currently have. I don't know the origin stories of either of those two organizations. I do know that they both provide good, solid technical assistance to women owned businesses. And we partnered with the women's the Center for Women Enterprise. And we partnered with them last year to provide some of the technical assistance. We provided technical assistance to BIPOC businesses that were applying for economic recovery grants. And then we sort of passed baton on to the Center for Women and Enterprise. So I'm going to leave it at that for questions. But I wanted to one get on the record that this belongs in ACCD. There's precedent for it that we need to have an organization and if state government, if you are in the position of under writing the cost of that, that would be great. And third data collection analysis and consumer friendly delivery. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. I think Curtis Reed brings up a really good point. A lot of the women's groups that have evolved over the years provide this kind of technical support and they've been active for many years. And I'm not sure if they're all located in ACCD or if they're just nonprofit organizations that function independently or they evolved out of something that maybe the government started along the way and became nonprofits. But I see that there's a couple of organizations here that maybe I'm going to ask the people in these organizations to explain what kind of things they do for their members and what they do to create this technical support. And is this the basis of something that can replicate or do the same kinds of things that these women's groups do? I know Emile does the Financial and Alliance and the Vermont Professionals of Color Network seems to have an organization that covers probably a variety of people. What exactly do these institutions do that can go and you can build on the support that the BIPOC community needs? Well, for our part, we regularly send out information certainly around the COVID Economic Recovery Program. Provided technical assistance to about 100 or so minority-owned businesses across the state. Our footprint as an organization is statewide. And in fact, probably most of the other folks that are on this list receive or have received information from us about ongoing efforts. There are, yeah, I'll leave it at that for the moment. Yeah, I can certainly speak from my side of the fence. So the Black Financial Alliance really we're in the still in the inception phase of collecting and centralizing representation for the community as a whole. So really the idea is to have representation not only from the business owner standpoint, but also from the professionals standpoint service professionals as well as Black focus and Black led organizations. But centralizing representation has been where we've started and done most of our work thus far. We're still not fully registered and off the ground as of yet. But certainly for us, the way that we took a look at doing this work, we just felt like there was a critical gap in communication central representation for the Black community in Vermont. We're starting to try to put all of those pieces together. So beyond creating, trying to put together a central point for there to be easy access recognition. And I think Curtis's point about data collection is absolutely critical for us to be able to work together. We have to know where everybody is in the space. And certainly that's one of the big focus points of the group and the work that we're doing as it stands currently. But to pretend that we are structured or operationalized to the point of being able to disseminate large scale services across any capacity at this point would be completely false. It might as well be me working out of my mom's basement at this point in time, trying to fill a gap in a community that we feel is still underserved by the state and by the structures that support it currently. Yeah, just piggybacking off of what Dmitriyana said, I agree with him 100%. And the Vermont professionals of Color Network, while our primary focus is on the advancement of professionals, you know, the upward mobility, we do focus as well on businesses and entrepreneurs because they themselves are professionals. And so really our goal is to empower BIPOC businesses, organizations and entrepreneurs with the resources, the community and the talent that is needed to stimulate and sustain economic growth. And at the moment, our organization is only two years old. We did start in 2019, but it's like Amirana said, I mean, we're still getting formed and there's still a lot of structure that needs to take place in order to harness all of the opportunities that are available to us and available to the BIPOC community. And prior to maybe prior to the events that happened this last summer, that focus wasn't there on us from the state or from local government or from the municipalities that are there. And only now we're starting to feel the love just by the virtue, for instance, of being on this call. So it's taken a long time to actually get the power and the wind of the government and also of the players in the industry to kind of propel us forward. And that had been the challenge that we had faced prior to the events of the summer. So we're glad that we actually now actually have a seat at the table. But there's a long way to go in getting the organization and the structure that's required in order to truly impact and serve the underrepresented communities of the state. Yeah, we are, the organization is 25 years old, the last 20 years, we've spent in various endeavors, the least of which I have to say is about economic development. Most of our work has been around institutionalizing anti-racist behavior in public institutions and businesses across the state. It was just a stroke of luck that our low season is in the summer. And so when I got the call from Ted, Ted Brady, we just happened to have had the bandwidth to be able to do the economic recovery grant program. But we have four folks on staff and we don't have the bandwidth to dedicate to the expansion of this idea of a BIPOC business association that would parallel the Center for Women and Enterprise or the Business Women's Network or even the commission for on women. But we see the need for doing this, but we don't personally, at Vermont Partnership, have the bandwidth to take that on right now. Charlie? Thank you. I can appreciate that. Thank you, Chris. And I'm wondering, Emilio and Tino and Weiwei, I'm not sure who to ask this question to, but looking five years from now, when your organizations are really getting started and not yet fully formed in terms of paying membership and that kind of thing, where do you see your two organizations? Sorry, Curtis, I want to get these two to fight for you. Your two organizations really in five years. I mean, how are you going to, what does that look like in your vision? I don't know if I am speaking over others, but, and I think Tino can support me in this. Right now we are in the process of becoming a 501c3 and we are really pushing ourselves. We have six board members and an intern working towards that process. So, and in the meantime, we are still offering services to our membership. We could consist about 250, 300 members across our platform. So, and that's statewide, I should mention, and we're gaining more membership on the daily. So, we are working towards the various goals that we have. You can visit our website at vtpoc.net to learn more about that. Tino, I don't know if you have anything else that you'd like to add in regards to our future plans. Yeah, sure. So, basically, like I said, our mission really is to advance the networking and career development of BIPOC members. So really, we're looking at driving career and professional mobility by making sure that professionals of color have the capacity to, you know, become, to get proper career development, exposing them to career, to employment opportunities, and also making sure that those that are already tenured professionals are given the space and the opportunity to become 40 leaders and cultural and professional competence counselors so that they can become the ambassadors of the younger generation and also be looked at as people that are in positions of authority, because when you look at the reality is that, you know, you look at any sort of middle to upper level of management, you don't see any black and brown faces in there. So that's really what we're looking to do to try and improve that mobility. But additionally, we're also looking to make sure that we promote the entrepreneurial ventures of the business community, of the people that are members of our community. So not all these people may consider themselves as professionals, but I do know, for instance, I've got a friend who owns an appliance and repair company business, a black man, and he considers himself as a professional, even though he's in the sort of the blue collar trade work. But those guys are professionals, and they are looking at trying to increase their business ventures to get a bigger foothold into some of the opportunities that are being presented out there. For instance, there's all sorts of new buildings that are going up. For instance, is he getting a chance to be a part of that process where he can do all the installations in the new apartment buildings that are being set up on Dorset Street? Probably not. And yet we want to make sure that people like him are included in that equation. And then the last part is also making sure that we have a powerful professional network that can advocate on behalf of its members. Because when decisions like this are being made, we're not currently having a seat at the table. We're trying to make sure that we're included in the Chamber of Commerce, for instance, or the Small Business Association. All these are the places where today, traditionally, we haven't had representation. We want to have a place where, for instance, when a bill like this is being considered, our membership and all people are being considered as well, so that we can also have a voice. Emiliana, I guess I'll throw it over to you. Yeah, I just want to know, Emma's hand's been up for a while. Emma, is there? I just don't want to just keep talking here. I think you're continuing on Charlie's question, and then I'll get to Emma. Fair enough. So a couple things. I think that's a fair question, Charlie. I think if the people in this room are looking to me to solve the issues for the community through the work that I'm doing part-time beyond carrying two full-time jobs and trying to do what my life has to do, I don't feel very good about that. I can certainly tell you folks that the vision that I have for five years, five months, five weeks away from now is to continue to do work where I feel like there are critical gaps in our community and how it's being served currently. I would certainly be considerably more interested in the opinions of this group of individuals here on how you feel five years from now. You're putting together real things, legislation, support services that support the community that thus far I don't think we've been able to do effectively. And certainly from my perspective, I think it's important or at least the way that we're approaching the issue is we have not found the help that we have been looking for from outside services or circumstances or other opportunities. So I think it is time or at least from the Black Financial Alliance, we feel like there's an opportunity to look inward towards the community to be the savior and the opportunity provider for additional financial advancement opportunities within our community by creating a situation in a system of group economics where we connect small business owners, large business owners, medium business owners to service professionals to Black-focused organizations where potentially we can start to create these inroads between Black communities as a whole. And certainly I think it applies to BIPOC, but certainly I just want to respect the fact that I'm speaking from my own lived experience. So certainly from the Black perspective, we're looking at if there are organizations that are built and focused on placing new Americans in Vermont that are Black into some kind of job opportunities to connecting them directly to Black businesses that are looking for new body, new headcount, anything of that nature, connecting service professionals to Tino's point, we are working and having these conversations between the people that are on this call already as to try to figure out how we can come together to plug the gaps where we feel like we currently live them in the community. So financial literacy opportunities from professionals that are in that service that can provide that to sole proprietor business owners that don't have necessarily the education or the background in order to structure businesses and go through all of the motions that require them to run a successful business. So certainly long-term I'd love for us to create some kind of situation at least from our side of the fence where the Black community has become the community that services and provides these services for ourselves that we have not been able to find in any other capacity and to create singular representation for it to be very easy for a large-scale allyship to be brought to the table as well. So from my perspective that's about as far as we've gone on a five-year plan but to be perfectly honest you know and I think it's in Charlie but if again if it's not if it belongs with us that represent less than 13 you know percent of the American population to solve the issues that apply to us as a whole we're in more trouble than we might think and I'd certainly be considerably more interested in hearing the opinions of the people in this room as to how you feel like you can bring fundamental change within the next five years and I think we're here to support and provide you know experience from from what we get to live on a daily basis but you guys hold the keys and sorry you guys you folks hold the keys and and everybody holds the dollars that come in the state and if you're not if this is not a focus and a priority item for you and if you're not interested in in coming up with creative solutions to bridge the gap and the onus and the responsibilities on you know the single folks of the community that are present here today and and I think Tino voice his opinion about this being really the first time that we get a seat at the table in this capacity to have this conversation I think we have a lot more work to do. Emma? Well I'm glad you went first Emiliano thank you for that. So I wanted to sort of build off of the last couple of parts of testimony and because I think part of what my inquiry is around not necessarily what the state can do for the BIPOC business owners and a potential BIPOC business network or organization whatnot but like reversing it the other way and really looking at this how does the state investing in the asset of our BIPOC businesses to better inform economic development policy by the state to better inform how the state is not you know meeting the needs of BIPOC community members and to really flip that into kind of an an asset for the state going forward building off of what Emiliano was just saying around you know the value add for for really putting this idea forward so I know you know it's been interesting just two months on this committee seeing who's who has this is able to come to these committee meetings and knows about these committee meetings and can engage easily and those who don't around the business community and so I'm really curious to the point on advocacy and the idea of representation around that idea of what what folks here today could say around the benefit to the state for the state to really invest in either you know a separate organization and really help stand up that BIPOC organization and help get that be successful and sustain and or more inside pieces so there's another idea here around resourcing ACCD which is the agency of commerce and community development not community development a CCD and it's sort of you know a two I'm thinking like a two-part approach because there is a state piece of this that I'm curious around you know making sure that we're building adequate relationships and making sure that the state is is showing up and meeting meeting this great economic development opportunity for the entire state. I like to start off with two things first is that their BIPOC business is across the entire state I think we've fallen to this trap of being a Chittenden County centric but we have BIPOC businesses that are all over the state and so I think a solution is a statewide organization the way that Emilio and Weiwei have described what they're doing is really sort of local in terms of Burlington and Chittenden County so I just want to remind everyone that there's more to Vermont than just Chittenden County the second is that there are we are losing millions millions of dollars tens of millions of dollars that leave the state that BIPOC businesses that are that do business with the state that live in Connecticut that live in New York that live in Maryland Virginia they're sucking those dollars out of the state and this our local communities are not benefiting from those state contract dollars because the the foreign BIPOC business owner is spending his or her cash and profits in the communities in which they live and the states in which they live so I think there's an enormous opportunity to help strengthen our local economies if we substitute it you know the the I think it was 83 million dollars last year of that went to BIPOC businesses outside of the state of Vermont imagine what the 83 million dollars would do for Vermont local communities I just want to have a point of clarification we are the Vermont professionals of color network is a statewide organization okay I'd stand corrected now um what you were just talking about Curtis is the the state contracts going out of state is it because the when the contracts go out the notice isn't going to BIPOC owned companies in Vermont um just going there's only one point of reference for state contracts in the state and then there are obstacles just in terms of sort of completing the BIP contract the BIP application that requires the kind of financial literacy and digital literacy to complete um to complete that if you're a small uh sole proprietorship you may not have the the muscle as it were of a full accounting department that can generate reports you know you might be doing your your financials on the back of an envelope as opposed to um you know having a bookkeeper and so those are the kind of barriers they're keeping Vermont BIPOC businesses to belly up to the bar so to speak now there are some that are doing that getting data on them is incredibly difficult which is why it's really important that the data collection analysis and dissemination in a consumer friendly way is so critically important and you know we we can put notices out as to your contracts sort of coming up but then there's follow-through takes staff time to you know sort of follow through with individual businesses um you know to see who's interested to see what kind of technical assistance they need and in in many cases it is it costs more to apply for a bid that you might not win that you could have spent that money in that time and effort trying to grow your business in other ways mark good morning uh glad to have you with us we haven't heard from you yet morning mr chair good morning committee and colleagues i appreciate the opportunity to come out record mark hughes executive director justice for all in the um racial justice lines so i wanted to just thank you for the opportunity to come out now i um i'm definitely listening to a lot of the comments from my colleagues and um and i think um the perspective that i wanted to offer really goes to um just the perspective that you know we as you all i think everybody on the call knows that we've been working on for the last uh maybe six years or so and that is to um to address systemic racism in vermont and so we we view uh the challenge here as being um obviously much more um it's it's a incredibly broad challenge that we're struggling with the um the work involves yes uh policy work as we're talking about right now and and you see um for those of you i i think there's not a legislator on this call it did not receive our notification on act at the beginning of the session session act uh and the work that's uh going towards addressing um disparities across housing and education employment health services access economic development the so-called criminal justice system uh and you know and how all of this stuff connects is just incredibly complex but i think um you know the challenge is is that we just getting getting everybody in the room to acknowledge the fact that systemic racism is even a thing so um i think we're getting there and i think if we are getting there we have to come to terms with uh understanding that uh we we have to deal with this within that context um and i think i think it's unfortunate but it's um i suppose timely that uh the um those of us who represent these uh diverse communities and i refuse to acknowledge minority because we are majority minority of we black and brown people are a majority of the planet um but i would say um that this group of black and brown folks has never come together uh until until this time so that's that's challenging but we'll keep working at it um i think the solution to the problem is ours uh to fix um i think you can help um if you listen to us um there is a wealth of of information that's that's available that's out there on some of the stuff that we're working with in some of the other places we are moving in the right direction i encourage you to um um to take a look at and strongly consider adopting the language of h406 uh this is our economic development uh our our the racial justice alliances economic development bill um it should be on your wall by now uh it endeavors to um address multiple uh questions that have come up uh until now um and i i guess um just to back up a little bit just to to talk about how our systems are um you know in a um framework of systemic racism how our systems are meeting our needs black and brown folks um you see the systems are working perfectly uh they're not broken they were never designed to uh to address black and brown folks needs um they were they were tailored for white people we believe this uh there's already a um a a um technical assistance program in the accd's office is now working for us uh never has and uh i think kurtis's comment was good to see you too kurtis uh 1991 1991 so it's not working so so we we agree that there should be something in in the accd's office that that is um you know serving in some type of capacity for technical assistance but if you take a closer look at the policy that we put for we also agree that uh you know consistent with what kurtis said because chinden county is not the whole state that this should be a regional approach that this should be just decentralized effort we we think that a lot of this work should be done on a regional basis and organization should be entrusted to manage this outside of the current structure because the current structure is uh not serving us and it's the same conversation that we were having on 210 this morning age 210 in uh health the current system is not serving us so we're asking for to do it different the current system in public safety is not serving us we'll be asking for you to do that different as well um black people brown people are not broken we don't need to do anything different we don't need to comport to the system because the system wasn't designed for us we need to figure out ways to make our own systems or else we need to figure out ways to create systems that reach black and brown folks that's what we're here to do um i think that um you know just a little bit of background we're working really hard here in in burlington on operation phoenix rise and we're doing similar work we're doing similar work across all systems not just public safety but we're talking about housing and education employment health services access the whole nine yards we're looking at uh reimagining this community folks are embracing some of this stuff about um the operation phoenix rise we're even looking at transportation with the right way here as opposed to shampoam parkway let's do a different um and we've also declared racism a public health emergency as well as the first city to do it like this in a nation um there's a reparations task force here so there's a lot of stuff that's in play and i think that this is really important work that we're doing but community engagement and support um and you know is is is also a big part of it we've granted about maybe 40 000 dollars i know it's a small number compared to the 2.5 million dollars that curtis gave away but we're just finding our sea legs and the communities we figure out how do we put money in people's hands um but also a financial empowerment uh i don't i don't really believe in literacy we tried that a couple hundred years ago but the financial the whole financial um clearing obstacles for economic opportunity i would prefer to say home and land ownership yes we do we are supporting a policy regarding home and land ownership but also personal and career development these are all very important components in the work that we're doing as an organization and yes we're statewide organization but also at the same time there's other activities that must happen and the reason why it's important for me to uh break this down to you is because i think it's really important to see a the broad brush of the work that we have to do that we are doing to dismantle systemic racism and view this work as a within the context of that work and i know some of you are saying all right already be done and leave and and but the point is is that i don't know that you're going to hear this anywhere else that's what i came to tell you is i don't know i'm so i'm going to take the time to try to explain this to you you know we're also doing and others are doing and many are doing in different ways outreach and education across the state even to your own constituents about what this thing is this thing causes systemic racism webinars platform six series film viewings okay this work needs to be funded too so the as us as organizations we're doing this work um we got to make sure that if we're talking about funding things we're talking about all of the things and then one of probably one of the biggest things and i think is the most important thing is cultural empowerment how do we get after commemorations and celebrations affinities and activities and workspaces and so forth are in safe spaces rather because this is what this is what really contributes to and lifts up the wellness of black and brown folks so we can't do the work so it's not just about owning businesses it's also about personal and career development so you can move yourself to a place where you can own a business so you can get so you can move beyond a place where you're just working for somebody or just trying to make things meet now conclude with just a couple things out of this policy and you know on the record i am in support of moving forward uh with some level of technical assistance and but it's just that i think that we got to be able to do two things at the same time i think we we've got to be able to do this because we know there's going to be a huge truncheon money coming down um god bless us all because the way it was handled last time you know not the point fingers or anything like that is it's just that the money didn't it we couldn't effectively get the money to where it needed to go and um that's on all of us um but we also we got to put ourselves in a position to to be able to do better this time while at the same time plan for an infrastructure that that really addresses the root of the problem not just how we deal money out when we get it but how do how do we work towards eradicating the challenges of what creates this situation whereas there is a need for a separate system to address BIPOC and American descendants of slavery so this proposal with H406 you know it talks about creating a department not a program within the ACCD department and it goes on um you know and it gives some very high level um prescriptions for a network um this is this is a um you know basically a by blacklit by blacklit organizations a grant program for qualified organizations and collaborators uh led by by uh American descendants of slavery or or um the wider um BIPOC community and in this this network would be you know the the central hub of this network would be the department within the ACCD and um it would also provide support for cultural empowerment programs regionally across the state but business cultivation support programs including technical assistance grants and loans business mentorship programs technical assistance because of that small business procurement contract assistance um see all of these things currently exist in some form or another within programs in the ACCD they probably have about 12 programs they also have technical assistance in the ACCD it's not working it's not working for this particular demographic of people so I just want to keep driving that home so let's stop trying to ask black and brown people to do something different and let's comport what it is that we're doing as a state to meet them where they are so so they can so we can do better um there's also coordinating personal and professional development in these centers across this network starting from adult basic education career development personal career coaching and I know what you're saying you're probably thinking well there's regional development corporations there's SBA there's capstone there's cvc there's cvc ve only you know what I'm trying to say but the thing is is that it's not working it's not working so all of these things uh go together uh delivery of wealth development programming like financial management home and land ownership programming investment management programming all of this stuff goes together and I think we're short-sighted in conclusion I think we're short-sighted and we do ourselves a huge disservice if we don't first empower black and brown people to handle our own business you're just taking care of on our own uh if we don't create the infrastructure and funding for them to do so um and if we don't view this within the context of a much broader issue uh which is how do we eradicate systemic racism you know right now what we're doing today is as we are responding to COVID-19 which has exacerbated excuse me exacerbated all of these outcomes of these determinants housing education employment health services acts it has exacerbated has raised our attention so we can see it more clearly but it was here all of the time these challenges were here all of the time and all we're talking about right now is is is jobs in COVID and we just we got to be able to contextualize it in a way to where we're actually institutionalized as institutionalizing practices and processes deconstructing uh systems that contribute to and have created the situation that we're in thanks for your time and I'm going to stick around and take some questions if there are any and otherwise I'll just stick around and listen to the rest of what my colleagues have to say thank you mark Paul hello thanks everybody for coming to our committee and speaking I think my question might be for Weiwei as she mentions that their her organization that she works with is statewide um and and uh the comment that Mr. Reed made about there being more to Vermont than just Burlington really kind of um caught my ears if you will and I think of my rural communities the four rural communities that I represent and the challenge is that the BIPOC community may face in these rural communities being you know further out from Burlington um and more densely populated areas where they may feel even a little more isolated and alone I'm wondering you know if there's any comments or if you can kind of speak to um BIPOC issues and barriers in rural communities as it relates to business and economic development I'm just curious to hear a little bit on that if anybody cares to speak on that I mean I think I'm based out of Burlington and I grew up in South Burlington so I don't know like that I personally have any experience with that um something like that I would feel more comfortable talking with our members beyond and um speaking with um uh folks like for example um Wayne Anthony Miller who is head of living proof he's got that mentorship organization out in the Upper Valley he might have a better idea in terms of how folks are dealing with things in those in more rural areas so for me personally I can't I don't want to speak on behalf of the organization or the membership of the organization um on that does that make sense it sort of does and that maybe leads me to another question is you know what you know I think you mentioned and maybe I'm getting confused maybe 250 members I think it was and yeah you know like how many of those members reside in rural communities sure yeah how well are they represented in your organization yeah so in terms of our statewide reach we have been gaining more statewide reach over the over COVID to be honest because it is hard when you are in a organization that's starting up and especially pre-COVID times where you know we started off as a networking event group and then we built up to this organization so we're still really building things out like Tino said we're only two years old and we just recently got funding to become 501c3 and so we are working with um other organizations across the state other individuals across the state to really bring our our services our programming to them um and to make it more um obvious like what is happening in the more rural areas um in terms of how many of the 250 members are from beyond let's say Chittenden County or even the Montpellier area um I would have to look into our files but I don't know that off the top of my head okay well I think um you know all the testimony that I'm hearing today is definitely you know the BiBot community certainly feels a little forgotten left out in economic development which I can completely understand and I think you know there definitely needs to be a solution I'm glad we're all meeting and discussing this my fear is also that um you know I just hope we don't forget the rural communities either and in developing a solution because can I speak to you definitely on rural communities um because I I agree with you 100% in fact I think that's some of the challenges um and let's just get real political politically uh when you start talking about the decisions that you make uh on a regular basis and and other members who are here um are reflective of your constituency and um there could be certain decisions that you make that are career limiting if you're not careful and those are the facts so and I don't shy away from that conversation I have them regularly with other committee members and of other committees in some of the chairs um like my good friend from from um well I shouldn't say that but I anyway I would I would I will tell you this is I've lived in Williamstown and I'll tell you I've lived in Woodbury and I've lived in Cabot I'll tell you I have a brother who lives in Franklin I think that might resonate with you and I'll also tell you that um some of the work that we've done across the state um because most of the time that I've been doing this work has been in Central Vermont not in Burlington uh so our our base was grown out of the the Montpelier Berry uh Williamstown Berlin uh Northfield the list goes on area um Middlesex and I think that um you know the relationships and yeah we're statewide as well but relationships we've established on some of our tours you know for example when we did 40 days of fire we we were in Hartwick we were in you know we were in Hartford we were we were in you know when we did the um this series on um you know hidden in plain sight the truth about systemic racism we started in the state house if you will call we started in room 10 in the state house and what we did is we took that uh to Hartford and we went to Hartwick again and we St. Albans in in St. Johnsbury were on the schedule before we got shut down um 364 days 366 days ago um I think the um you know so the as far as the rural community you know we're full aware you know in fact there's also a relationship that we have on our cannabis work which is which intersects with and full coalition partners with rural Vermont and Vermont Growers Association and NOFA and so there's a lot of partnerships that we have there and begin to determine you know with some of those um synergies are in terms of what we share what we have in common you know we have a there is a common goal uh that small farmers and in grow small growers have with with the BIPOC community as it pertains to our advancement in this cannabis conversation in terms of equity um we're that's one of the reasons why I was late for this conversation those conversations continue in the senate house in the senate gov option in judiciary even now in s25 uh so yes there's a lot of um interaction relationships uh because there are friends that come from these relationships as well Christ my brother lives on Lake Karma so I mean you talk you want to talk Franklin uh so there's um there's there's a lot of um work to be done still uh but um I hear you I want to let you know I hear you and your your uh your comments are valid thank you and I live in Franklin by the way right um so if I can answer your question with some anecdotes um so I've heard from many black and brown folks that are in the construction trades for example um that they're having a hard time holding on to good workers and that's because their workforce is coming out of vocational schools that have a very limited view of the world and so you bring on a new employee and you might get f-bombed or you might be called the n-word uh and so the business is constrained to grow if you have a series of if you have an uncertain workforce that is doesn't want to work with BIPOC owned businesses um there's a challenge around capitalization and you know having relationships with a financial institution I mean I've been in Vermont for 42 42 years now I have a banking relationship with the same bank for 42 years I could you know call peter and say I need you know $50,000 line of credit and it wouldn't be a problem but if you're a new business starting out you don't have that relationship with your local bank or local financial institution um and so some of that some of the challenge that um that face BIPOC businesses most of which were formed in the last three four or five years um you know it's difficult for them to find the capital they need to grow and in some cases you know personnel staff that are not knuckleheads so but those are just sort of anecdotal we haven't done any any any um research on the on that aspect of of business ownership would it be possible for me to just um speak to Representative Martin's question again sure okay thank you um I wanted to say um like as VTPOC network is growing um we are working with NAACP of Rutland and we are reaching out to NAACP of Wyndham County and all these other organizations but I think it's very difficult to um reach out to some some of the more rural um let's just call them constituents for the the reasons that Emiliano had kind of talked about early on in terms of people don't know that we exist yet um because there's not the information is not necessarily out there and a lot of our membership is gained through word of mouth and people are like oh did you know about this and then people sign up so as we flow we are gaining more of that traction with rural um membership so I just want to address that um if that helps answer your question a little bit more yeah there's an old um dictum that says how do you find a needle in a haystack exactly and it's you need to have a magnet that's strong enough and I think what we're seeing here is that there are local organizations that are expanding their reach but they're not yet at the level of the magnet large enough to attract for my partnership we're just we're just um repository of information right now in terms of BIPOC businesses um like I said that's not our principal wheelhouse um but you know we're in this space because we know that there's um that there's work to be done and that the legislation that needs to get that needs to move forward and I'm really happy that there's Emiliano and Weiwei uh you know I feel like I can retire soon knowing that uh that you guys are out there so yeah Curtis if you can't get my name right don't think about retiring anytime soon okay and if you can't say mine Mark I can say yours hey I wanted to just um piggyback on to what um our friends at um at the network are communicating uh because we were on I was on recently with a call with them and I just want to lift I really want to lift up what they're doing and we'll figure out ways to do that on our site as well in in in collaboration and I just and I want to I want the committee to admit to envision collaboratives as well because we don't need you to get this together we're gonna we're gonna figure this out we're gonna get this together as organizations and as people and we're gonna do better that's my commitment to my friends um but um as we do so I think that there is an opportunity for a um you know some some you know some pretty interesting work that we could do uh collaboratively with the with the legislature um you know I will definitely you know be tracking down um most of you know all of my colleagues that are on this call some of us have hit and miss prior to this meeting but I do think that um collectively uh there there's a lot of potential for um to advance this conversation and again I'm I am biased uh because I'm framing this conversation in systemic racism eradication and this is part of that work um but I think that this is a good place a good conversation for me to be in uh surrounding that work and I think we've got mostly all the right people at the table and having the conversation so I I appreciate um you bringing us in and and again we'll be making sure that um we make that magnet stronger for for the network as well charlie thank you mr chair um mark I have a question for you um and that a lot of the description of the struggles of small businesses that have been described today are universal across any but any business that is starting and trouble accessing services uh not knowing what to do not having the financial literacy and so we try to address that with general programs and what you were saying is that the system was not set up and it's not designed to really cater to people of the BIPOC community and what I want to really really understand before we go to accd uh and say we really need to have representation for the BIPOC community is can you tell us how in this pandemic uh and looking at the system that was set up to really respond to that how the community was not well served I say that I ask that question knowing that you probably have a 20 minute speech on that but just just trying to get some I uh I'm joking trying to get some specifics around that can can you restate your questions just thinking about what you were saying was that the system really wasn't set up to be able to address the needs of the BIPOC business community and I'm looking for specifics in which that has actually occurred and trying to think and trying to better understand that I don't I don't really have an answer to that question right now I mean when you say specifics when you say where I get thrown off on that question is when you say specifics to how that has occurred I don't have for example I don't have specifics on how we got 11 percent a prison population on black people when we only have 1.4 percent uh black folks in this day I can't give you those specifics on how that actually happened because largely it's because everybody's pointing at each other uh and um and secondarily because it is a system that has created it um I you know and I could go on and on with the list of you know the expulsions from people in school but I can't tell you um you know in terms of you know the education outcomes and you know I can't give you like specifics um but what I can tell you is is I can certainly give you some outcomes uh and I think you know Sue Zeller would tell you that outcomes are important and and I think the um the outcomes that we have right now is is we've we've got a you know a bunch of black and brown folks uh that I know and that I represent uh some of whom I represent and um and a whole lot of stories about inaccessibility or just no knowledge whatsoever of existence of certain services um you know not when I pair that with stuff like I you know like the prison conditions you know and I'm challenged on it sometimes um I just asked people especially you know people with uh white people with political and economic power I asked them I you know I say you know could it be that you know there are systems especially since this exists across all systems and we have empirical data that supports that could it be that black and brown people are are just inherently less smart than white people could it be that we are just inherently more criminal um if that's the case if that's the justification then I'd like to I'd like to hear from you and I'd like to hear from folks here on this committee if it's not then I think we've got some some systems problems that we got to work out but specifics I don't have for you today. Yeah because I think what you're addressing is mostly one of communication and making sure that folks know that these that that the programs are available I'm trying to figure out if that's the major issue or if it's some kind of other nefarious program that's going on. Yeah I get what you're coming from and just a quick redirect before you know the chair acknowledges a million I guess this is just that um yeah I think that it's important to get to the specifics the question is is when do we get to the specifics and I think that this whole this whole concept this data collection by the way this data thing I've been screaming data for the last five years data across all systems of state racially disaggregated data across all systems of state government we've got policy on that as well as we're you know some people are you know a day late in a dollar short just trying to get to Tanya Davis another couple bodies we're trying to get her a data infrastructure so we can get racially disaggregated data across all systems and oh by the way actually give her some authority um but that's another conversation but the point here is is that that data collection um that that uh strategy that initiative you know it's not just a state initiative we too uh Curtis is is demonstrated as possible he's already started some level of outreach we'll be doing some of that particularly as it pertains to COVID in the very very near future um you know we could talk about vaccinations but we won't um but the thing here is is just that um there is a lot of data that needs to be collected in these areas and I think that as we continue to do the work Representative Kimball and and identify what needs to happen now because of a sense of urgency because this is an emergency um what we should probably do is is commit to collecting those data so we can get after the answers uh the the answers to the questions that you're asking right now I hope that helps yeah thank you Miliana yeah and if I can just kind of piggyback off that question Representative Kimball I think it's I think if the solution was a simple or the problem was as simple as singular elements or singular components then I think it would be resolved and would have been resolved a long time ago um I think the issue with a ton of the end symptoms that the Black communities faced with in particular is due to the systemic nature and the intersectionality of all these contributing factors that lead to that final endpoint and that's prevalent in access to financial capital lack of representation incarceration rates all of those things and I I certainly think there's a tonality to framing problems and certainly problems of the size and scale with that particular lens that certainly ties quick wins together but by no means addresses larger solute larger issues that come together to create these end problems so I would I would just and this is simply my opinion I think again if it was so simple as hey what where are we specifically missing the mark on a couple of things that make it so if we adjust these small pieces the problem solves itself if it was that simple you're sitting and surrounded by a room full of I'm sure quite intelligent people and certainly from the community standpoint at least I consider myself to be slightly educated and intelligent um I think if it was so simple as as identifying specific things that make it so that we come up short not only would we have identified those address those and resolve those but I think you know there's there's some I think there's some danger to framing this the size and scale of this issue with that particular lens and focus and I would just encourage the group as a whole to be aware of the perspective that there are so many culminating and converging factors that result in the end product that this community in the BIPOC community face as a whole that if we start to look at it and hey what are the quick wins or specifically where do we miss the mark we miss the mark all across the board and that's what results in specific symptoms occurring in a bunch of different capacities so as much as I think it's important for us to have a targeted approach and I think maybe that's more of the conversation that's that's worth having um I would just heavily encourage everybody to be aware and conscious of the fact that intersectionality across a multitude of factors and social circumstances are what result in the end product that we are all trying to find a solution for and I think it's deserving for us to try to appear to to put you know small specific wins on the table by tackling specific items but again that's just my opinion and I just wanted to round out the answer to that question. Curtis? I just I need to leave at noon and if there are any other questions for me um I'll take a stab at them before I before I sign off. Okay yeah I think we're all um going to leave at noon as well we'll follow you out um Paul? I think I just have one last thing I kind of I think I really understand Rep Kimball's question and um in that you know I think a little more some specifics and maybe some real-life testimony from some of these business owners that have faced challenges would really be helpful for us because I'm looking at our committee and I don't think we have anyone that is a member of the BIPOC BIPOC community on our committee um so you know really looking for specifics and some guidance on you know how we can eliminate some of those barriers or lower some of those barriers I think would be helpful. You know I'm a member of a minority community as a gay person and I understand those issues that I faced uh in my own businesses and business dealings um and just life in general so you know for us to sit here as a you know predominantly or a white really a white committee um I think it makes it a little difficult and I'm sure you all understand that so it's kind of I think what's being said so I think I think what Rep Kimball is saying and I think I feel the same way and I guess I don't want to speak for Rep Kimball but um I think a little you know a little more guidance on how exactly um we should move forward would be helpful if that makes sense um but that's just maybe my final comment. Mr. Chair if I may. Sure. I think um first of all I own three businesses and um and I think you know in all fairness to uh to Charlie or to Representative Kimball's um comment you know that there's there are there's stuff to be learned and I think that I want to be careful to to to make sure I think it's important that it's also understood and yeah I'm happy to come back and give and give talk and speak more to this from a business perspective today I'm speaking for the Alliance but I think it there is a um there's a lot to be said about um when people of color you know come together and organize and identify uh some of the um some of the challenges and put forward and I think I mentioned earlier um policy and put forward you know certain recommendations on H406 I think I mentioned um you know transparently I have to you know I have to express you know make sure that I'm expressing a little bit of frustration because um we're literally telling you what to do we're giving you a framework uh we put in the policy right in front of you glad to come back and testify um to that policy but you know to and I know the policy is pretty fresh on your wall and I know you're working on this massive behemoth policy that you're going to move by the end of this whatever this is um but um before you start asking for stories we kindly ask you to read the policy that we gave you uh and we'd also ask you to you know to consider taking it up so we can come back and tell our stories within the context of of testimony on that policy because I believe strongly that we put forward some really um um novel and um and um very creative approaches to addressing the challenges that are um that's that are in front of us and frankly um there's there's some other challenges that we we struggle with is it's very difficult to get people to come before um the legislature and testify because because we don't trust you and and they don't either and and there there's been so much harm that's been done by the legislature to uh people of color recently especially our women um just recently so that's the challenge that we're trying to work through and I I will just flag that and say this is the you know this is the the most um I'll just say this is the coolest committee I've been in so far so just take that but the thing is is that um that's a challenge it is a challenge you know just if we're you know I came to testify but I'm gonna I also came to be honest with you and be and be truthful and transparent so it there's that and then the last piece that and this is just what you I just asked you to consider is is black and brown people are tired of telling you stories um I think that we've been we've been telling you story I've been here for a dozen years um and I hadn't really seen much of anything change you know we moved act 54 racial disparities in the criminal and juvenile justice system advisory panel uh with the attorney generals in the human rights commission's task force back a little while ago we it was our work that created Susana Davis's position in the panel that supports her we've been telling we've been telling you stories um since stories were were told um and haven't been seeing very very little progress and I think white uh black some black folks are getting tired of white voyeurism trauma voyeurism um so so you gotta take that into account as well it can be done um but I think just you know one of the things is I think it's super important Mr. Chairman is is is just you know let's just be mindful of the fact that you know there's folks on the other side of the table that are that are in fact traumatized and and that have been trying to work through these things for quite some time and there's trust issues and um and there is uh some fatigue uh so I appreciate that Representative Martin I I received it well um but I just wanted to just give you the flip side of it thanks yes and we we sent out a notice at the beginning of the session to everyone in our database and asking them if they wanted to testify and if they did I think we sent a couple to Emma and a couple to Sarah Coffey but small business owners are in the business of trying to stay afloat and coming to testify before the the legislature is pretty low on on the priority list and I do want to echo Mark's commentary around trauma tourism and and analysis paralysis you have enough information I believe to be able to make a decision so anyway I need to sign off thank you again for the opportunity and uh be well thank you Curtis sir Mr. Chair I just want to I hope my comment didn't come off as insensitive I meant I'm a brand new legislator I'm 28 years old so um you know I did not want that to come off as insensitive I hope it didn't because that's not not at all not at all so so Paul I mean Representative Martin not that that wasn't that absolutely not I want to I want to make sure that you know we walk away because it's you know what as we interact with the legislature um you know from my perspective and as far as the alliance is concerned and some some people from other committees may may tell you well Mark just came in and lit us up maybe I did but you know there's there's no there's no reason um to you know for us to to come in in here hostile today um for me to come in here hostile um I you know I I really mean it I and I and I know that some here are in other committees I won't call your names out um but I will say that um this committee has is is probably is definitely the most receptive and um the you know the most open committee that I've spoken to and I think this is the sixth place I've testified uh this session so um you know compliments to the chair but also those of you who've invited us here so I'm absolutely not Representative Martin there could be nothing further from the truth yeah I'd echo that but yeah I think we're all figuring it out right yeah I wouldn't feel any kind of way about it well we appreciate that um I think you know last fall when we heard that there was an issue of getting the money that we had set aside for the BIPOC business community that they were having a hard time getting that money out um we coming back want to make sure that that doesn't happen again and um we want to do what we can to um make sure that um the BIPOC business community is is being heard number one um number two that they have access um to technical support um have access to um other state functions that everybody else does and number three we want to make sure that their businesses are successful we want to make sure that all businesses in Vermont are successful um it's just better for the better for the good of the state and for good of all our communities so um with that I want to thank you all for joining us this morning thank you for the conversation um we will do our best to um see what we can do um and to um and to try to support you as much as we possibly can thank you mr chairman thank you so much for having me and I also would just leave as a note um for consideration because I know we're going to be trying to do um a lot in a very short period of time and um I don't think anybody here wants to do what we did last time so I would ask uh that you would that you would consider that the committee would consider how do we you know how do we do this in a way to where we don't have respectfully one point one single point of failure um I would I would ask I would ask that you consider how do you go about uh creating multiple access points uh and also uh to Curtis's point um the rest of the state's not Chittenden County um but let me just flip that up on its ear Chittenden County is not the rest of state so what that means is is that if there's something going on in the other part of the state there's an equal level of isolation if it's not Chittenden County centric so riddle that so there there must be uh some type of um I would say compartmentalization because there should be some kind of centralized um mechanism in place but there there should be uh some type of disaggregation to the extent that you know like Representative Martins you're up in Franklin Franklin's different you know I've got you know one of my church members are up in Frank is up in Franklin to my brothers in Frank Franklin's different it's just different it's different from Chittenden um so there's there's respectfully but there's a um there are a lot of different nuances about how to get bunny to BIPOC folks uh and that is one of them um so I would just leave that with you respectfully and I'd ask you to take that into consideration and you know I you know I stand at the ready to you know to support this effort in any way um and I support the work of this committee thank you for having me thank you all very much um committee I think it's lunchtime now um we have the floor at 115 um we do appreciate um everyone that joined us this morning