 Welcome back here still watching the breakfast on plus TV Africa. Last week, the Nigerian Communications Minister Issa Pantami revealed that some security agencies had gotten approval from the president, Mohamed Abu-Hari, to assess or access the database of the National Identity Management Commission in the cause of current on their duties. This week we're hearing that the president is being urged to rescind his decision. From society organization, socio-economic rights and accountability project, his urging President Buhari to use, quote, his good offices and leadership position to urgently review and rescind the reported approval of four security agencies to access people's personal details via the NIN same linkage without due process of the law. In the letter dated February 5, 2022 and signed by its deputy director, Kola Wole Olua Dari, the organization is also urging the president to, quote, send executive bills to the National Assembly to repeal and reform all laws which are inconsistent and incompatible with Nigerians right to privacy, dignity and liberty. I'm glad to say Kola Wole Olua Dari joins us this morning to throw more light on this right here on the breakfast on plus TV Africa. Mr. Lord, I have a good morning to you. Nice to be here. Nice to have you. And how has the president replied to your letter? Not yet. So I wouldn't be able to confirm whether he has gotten it or whether he hasn't received it. Okay. You're saying that you're not sure you're not aware of the president has received the letter? No, I said whether he has received the person, I would not be able to say, but traditionally let those go to correspondents or not go to direct people. I'm sure there are people that receive it or they stay out before he gets to it. So I think we have to go all week to wait and listen and watch the pen and order. Okay. I'm sure the president, if he gets his morning papers, would see your letter and report to your letter. And of course, he might begin to ask for it if he hasn't yet gotten it. But have you had any response from the president in the past? Is this a tactic that has worked when you write to him on policy issues or does he respond to you? It's not a tactic. It's what everyone should do and it's what I would like to encourage everyone to do is we are in a democracy. So I would say the president is about to get feed back from the people if citizens don't communicate with them. And that is what we have been doing over the years, that is what we did. And so in the past, sometimes we get responsive by way of correspondents or ministries who are copied in the letter. Sometimes we read about the responses on the pages of newspapers, just like you. But what is important is that we get action, not necessarily correspondents and response to our advocacy. But as long as there are actions that are beneficial to the experience, I think that that will suffice and that is what is most important anyway. Let's look at the issues on the table. You have an issue. What is the president's decision? Why? Because that decision in itself, we are not here to hear from the president directly. It's not legible in this instance. And the context is very simple to understand. The right to privacy is constitutionally guaranteed in chapter four of the Nigerian constitution. And what the law of section 45 of the competition says is that all those rights that are granted in chapter four of the constitution, of course, they are not absolutes. Any kind of action or anything that would derogate from those rights must ask to do some fundamental principle. And it's called a three-part test, legality, proportionality, and necessity. And that means that provided in the constitution there must be a law that would derogate from those rights. And what that means is that that law itself must stipulate rights, duties, and obligations, both on the part of duty bribes, that is governments and agencies, and on the part of right holders which are the citizens. Presently we have no such comprehensive framework. What we have in the constitution in chapter seven is the right to privacy along with the right to freedom of expression in section 49 and all of the laws that are interrelated. We are yet to have the law that will concretely stipulate what are the rights and obligations. And we can ask this very simple question. These data that is being shared with security agencies, which security agencies are we talking about? Is it the police? Is it the ESTC? Is it the immigration services? The law needs to set up clearly who are those agencies. Secondly, what are the limits that they have to the use of this data? Don't forget these are things that pertain to you and me, including who you spoke to possibly last night, and how much it sends to a friend over the weekend, as little as that. So we are yet to have such laws in place. And then the president's question to us is that if there is a breach of data between, from where our data that is where I was, the ESTC, the security agencies, if there is a breach of data, who are we going to over this? Those are some of the provisions that must be in this framework that would clearly generate both rights, limits and obligations. If the rights and the power cannot be at large, and I need to mention this, that national security, which is what we've seen over time, be used by government and government agencies to curtail the federal restoration of the agency. It's not enough. National security is too big a word to be thrown around. And you may not understand the essence of these rights until as individuals these rights are breached and breached. And that is the essence of these rights. Particularly within the context of what we've seen, the historical existence of security agencies in Nigeria, how can we be sure that these rights cannot be abused? But that is the side of the factor. There is no law presently that creating obligations on the part of how we use this data. The extent, the limit, and even if there is an abuse, who will be copied? And that is why it is putting the cuts before the ops in this instance, which is what we've told we asked the president to ensure that there are bills put before the national assembly that will create these laws. The national data professional regulation is a subsidiary legislation at best. It's not a law at that. It's much less a part of constitutional provisions to prevent privacy. So that is what means to be done first before this kind of directive from the president. Okay. Interesting. We don't know yet what the agencies, like you said, involved are. We don't know the extent to which they might go. But you're talking about monitoring of phone calls and all that. Are we really sure and can we afford to speculate at this time if you're not totally sure, or if you don't have that information, as to what the extent of the past the president has approved are or is? Because we hear that, you know, you talk about monitoring of phone calls. Wouldn't that be bringing some panic, especially bearing in mind the fact that the Nigerian Identity Management Commission doesn't deal with the phone calls and the network connection. They just have data, you know, data, the bio-data and all that of the people who own these phone lines. What do you say to that? That is exactly a part of the challenges that this kind of directive is going to bring. We do not know the extent. And when I talk about the extent of those powers, it is not just for the president to tell us. There must be laws. It must be a law that I want to relate and create obligations like this is what you can do with this data. This is who you can share this data with. And these are the right and obligations that follow the trail of data as it goes from agency to agency. We do not have that. And don't forget your NIN, NIN to your phone. So even if it is not captain, we do not know whether it is captain within this directive of president, even if it is not, are we sure that eventually giving the chain of custody of this data, it will not eventually get to that. And don't forget, this administration as we stated its commitment, time and time again and we are caught on this as well to monitor the water conversations of Nigerians. It wasn't the news when the 20th and the 21st population BU was being considered. So the world has been stated as a corporation for the particular gains of government to monitor the water conversations of Nigerians. So again that is exactly to the issue we are talking about. We do not know the extent of the use of this data. So if your NIN data is linked to your bank details it is linked to your phone and it is linked to whatever I am sure that what is being accessed or released only pertains to your account and does not pertain to your phone call, which is why we must have these clear directives in custody of the data, the rights and obligations of those public institutions involved including liability for any kind of breach of practice. And this again will protect, constitution actually protects individuals from abuse, either by public institutions or even property that might inadvertently come across such data. Okay. Thank you very much. We are aware of the reason given by the federal government for this NIN same linkage policy which despite the prevalence of COVID-19 and several government directives and even actions curtailing the freedoms of Nigerians in the name of lockdown restriction of movement restrictions placed or limits placed on how many people can gather at a time even with all these they made Nigerians gather in numbers exposing themselves to COVID-19 just to register and to link their SIM cards with the NIMC database. One of the reasons given for that exercise was that it needed to be done for the sake of national security. So why the reaction from Syrup if they had already said they needed to protect Nigerians and they had already given a reason as far back as last year why this was being done as being that of national security amongst others. Thank you. I think Kofi the point is that the NIMC started to allow us to obtain data from Nigerians to be aware of such a state. It is not in doubt but even that power to obtain data and to keep it must be within the framework of laws. Don't forget that they are consistently guaranteed rights to freedom of the right to privacy. Really for me keeping that data is my right to privacy. Now we are going to another level now sharing of data. What limits of data that can be shared by NIMC particularly when there is more and more connections between your NIMC first it was now back out and then you can just understand how it's going to go on and on in the least your passport program as much as possible. And so in the absence it is not enough to state national security. The NIMC has the right to collect something and they don't need to give us a reason to collect the data. But it is the use of such data that is very important. And I think we do not have enough laws that protect that presently. And as I mentioned earlier national security as a phrase we cannot afford to abuse this catch-out phrase that we bring on the right of freedom of the right. Not particularly those who may have the power to do so today will ultimately be on the other side tomorrow. And that is why national security is not important. It is that it is a catch-out phrase that without limits it is of course subject to abuse. I would like to go back to what Mr. President said in May 2021 and I would like to go back to what Mr. President said in May 2021 and I would like to go back to what Mr. President said in May 2021 and I would like to go back to what Mr. President said in May 2021 and use his words. He said the NIN will help us fight insecurity identity, identify crooks is what he said when he launched the national policy for the promotion of indigenous content in the Nigerian telecom sector. So he said that the national identity number linking it to mobile numbers will help fight insecurity country. He said proper identification of all Nigerians and legal residents and ability to conveniently access rather a database. Please listen to this, I hope you can hear me clearly. He said proper identification of all Nigerians, that's number one and the number two ability to conveniently access a database to enhance effective planning and security oversight. The statement said and I quote the NIN will cover one of the weaknesses in our security structure. We will be able to easily identify and know the personality of Nigerians will also identify people easily including crooks, he said. Now if you go back to that if you move back or forward rather from that, there were reports on the news that Nigerians had one story three days ago one year after NIN NIN's same policy insecurity comes faster. This probably was because they had not started using or had not authorized the security agencies to access the database. So I'll go back to the question this had been said by the president long before now that the security agencies were going to access this database and of course the media and the general country were complaining about insecurity and we said okay this thing has been done we went through a lot to get this done why we still have any security fester and now the government is saying okay well we have not finally approved that the security agencies can access or can access rather this database so shouldn't we be moving forward on this especially with regards to the fact that national security is of overriding importance to every Nigerian. I think we have moved forward the government is the one that is yet to move forward with all the nice needs for national security and we are all witnesses to the prevailing level of security tension there must be laws before we cannot have this media reaction to every and in the long run so again the issue is not about the power of the NIMC to get data there is no legal framework that prescribes the limit of with public institutions those data can be shared with and then as we go both along the chain of cost study the extent of such data being exposed and most importantly how that data can be used by even the top party agencies and I call them top party of power because I am the first person the NIMC is the custodian of my data and then the top parties that knows NIMC is giving access to those data and there are rights that follow the data as it goes forward to those public institutions to protect me and to curtail the extent of what they can use that data so for instance and this is just hypothetical if my NIN data is shared with the central motor registry database with the Nigerian police for instance what are they and what how much data do they need to be able to effectively do their work do they need to have my bank details do they need to have access to my financial transactions or do they just need to have my address those things must be clearly identified if not we may think that in the name of national security those things do not matter then most importantly who will be liable in bench burning if in the chain of custodias that are progressive from the NIMC to other public institutions there is a data search and my data falls into the wrong hands who will be responsible there must be laws that prescribe that and the third reason people feel like that mention earlier is that the constitution recognizes that right and the same constitution provides that if any law for any instance for any reason in Nigeria conflicts with constitutional provisions naturally the constitution will prevail and if sections are the central grants may be right to privacy and if the right is going to be taken away for any reason of course not that law and that law must clearly spell out my duties the duties of the NIMC the use that they took the contingent is not the use of data to fight insecurity the contingent is the absence of the legal framework so what we are creating is more of a ninja reaction put in the cast before they all start so we are not against the use of this data to curtail insecurity in Nigeria but we cannot that those platforms that blow the security against the citizens have to share it and that's where it goes okay let's look at it you've talked about legal framework and it's very important to talk about this because at the end of the day of course you've said it affects all Nigerians and the privacy of Nigerians is very important as far as this is concerned we must ensure national security but must also ensure that it's done within the ambits of the law I agree with you, I understand all that but the government there's something that has been up since 2017 and I'm just going to bring it up on our part here so I can read it for you and this is the National Identity Management Commission Act 2017 or rather of 2007 this is mandatory use of the national identification number regulations 2017 and it talks about in part one additional transactions requiring the use of national identification number but part two is very important the process and procedure for exercising monitoring and enforcement powers I think this is what Sarah may have missed the process and procedure for exercising monitoring and enforcement powers and it talks about in section two of the whole regulations to enforce compliance section three, principles for monitoring and enforcement powers and this may be what Sarah wants to see, it's already existing I would like to read that paragraph two or section two for you so that you can give me your thoughts on these lawyer so your best position to do that and that section two, it talks about the power of the commission the side note principles for monitoring and enforcement powers so it says this is under part two the process of procedures for the exercise of the commission monitoring and enforcement powers shall be in accordance with the provisions of the act, the mandatory of the NI regulations 2015 and these regulations section three, subsection one says the commission this is the NIMC shall in exercising its monitoring and enforcement powers be guided by the following principles and considerations A transparency and fairness transparency, fairness and non-discrimination transparency, fairness and non-discrimination don't you think this does this or does this cover it as far as you can see, does this cut it? I didn't want to interrupt we are aware of this law the regulations from the NIMC firstly, this is the regulation and the regulation is lawfully made but the constitution prescribes that for any act of law that would take away my right granted by the public it should be a law at least it should be an act of the national assembly not the sub-signal legislation of another public institution that may be subject to abuse that's it secondly, what you read in the regulation of transparency and policy it's vague, it does not even prescribe actions and steps it does not say if NIMC is giving these are the people that the NIMC can share that they are with for time this is the extent of what can we share these are the steps you must take before you get level to access A of data level 2 of access broad policy statements it does not prescribe steps and that is why it falls short of the three-part test is it legal? is it necessary? and is it proportionate in this instance to fight the security what we need to add which part of the algorithm is to add an act of the national assembly that recognizes the right granted by the constitution and also prescribes a curtailment that prescribes specific duties to specific institution of government and Kofi, what you read now are best at those near policy statements without concrete steps and so in what you read now what does this say about who my data can be shared with what does this say about it because don't forget Kofi, every against of government is done entirely to every part of my data that this NIMC so it means it's called need to no crisis at that time so who regulates that what are the specific provisions of that and I mentioned something Kofi that I think is very important if my data falls in the wrong guns between NIMC and public institutions who is going to be responsible is there any legal framework creating that obligation or I have to go to court and walk through the high court office spent 12 years before the court can declare any kind of restriction what will Sarah what will Sarah's next line of action be if the president doesn't reply or respond to your letter or you don't see any moves from the federal government to create a legal framework for the operation of this this new idea this is the ultimate pessimistic but we are very optimistic that this time we may not have to short to litigation you do know that Sarah we do but legal advocacy so well not because we like the culture much so like you love the new school it is because after our right our advocacy as it were fails then we are recourse to the court and we go to court because we are lower by incident because the same constitution in section 6 says that the judiciary will be the minor ad paper between the right obligations and duties between individuals between public institutions and between individuals and public institutions so if the release is not entered as requested from the president because it is a statutory duty on the part of the president don't forget we did not write it to the president because we failed to shoot to it it is because as the president he owes Nigerians a duty particularly those 73 million Nigerians to protect them and that in finding the security does not expose them to further damage and they won't act on security so we will of course necessarily have to go to court in the public interest if we do end up in court it is not in Seraph's interest it is in the public interest of those 73 million Nigerians including yours Kofi and I wouldn't want your data for instance to fall into drama interesting of course I'm talking to a lawyer so it's understandable I'd like to thank you very much for your time Kola Ole Oluwadare ASD deputy director of Seraph Pacemina guest and movie monitoring to see if the president does make any changes to the policy thank you very much Oluwadare for your time up next we have discussions there's an interesting conversation around education and the use of the spelling B format as a way of enhancing the intelligence of our children and students we'll talk about that when we come back stay with us