 Welcome, everyone, to our session, Women Explorers. What does the future of Mainframe development look like? So my name is Rochelle Ancrow, and I'm a senior software engineer from Broadcom. And today I will be the moderator. I'll be moderating this discussion with four other women technologists on Mainframe modernization and collaboration on an open community. Today I want you all to meet the women of the Zully Explorer Squad. So we have Jesse Lane Ponambaya. Jesse Lane is a product marketing engineer from Broadcom. We have Lauren Lee. Lauren is a front-end developer from IBM. We have Billie Jean Simmonds. Billie is a software engineer from IBM. And we have Caitlin Nina Bell. Caitlin is a software engineer, formerly from Broadcom. Welcome, ladies. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. Thank you for having us. So I want to start with what might be some jarring statistics for our discussion today. So based on a 2021 study by the Anita B.org Institute, the overall representation of women technologists decreased by 2.1 percentage points between March 2020 and January 2021 to just 26.7%. And aside from that, the presentation of tech women decreased at all levels except for intern in 2021. So in light of these numbers and in light of these statistics, I would like to turn to our panelists and ask each of you to describe a little bit about yourselves and describe your journey to Zully Explorer and whether you had enough women representation in your career, in your school, if you had women mentors and how did you arrive to the project of Zully Explorer. So I want to start with Lauren. Sure. So Zully Explorer is actually my first open source project and my journey into the Zully Explorer was definitely not a straight path. I actually started in the healthcare field and then over there women outnumbered men in both my classes and my workplace. But I got interested in the health information systems that were being used and the technology behind them. And so my angle of approaching to programming was more from like an informatics or information science perspective rather than like a hardcore computer science approach. And then in my master's degree program, which was in information science, there was a lot of focus on not just like how to program and code but also facets like user experience design and also things like what is the impact of the technologies and the disparities in information access on the community. And so in my program, I'd actually say there's more women than men in my class. And so I didn't have any shortage of women colleagues or mentors there. And then when I joined IBM after I graduated, the team for a project which works on Zully Explorer was still kind of forming and originally the distribution was more skewed towards having more men than women. But then after the team kind of filled out in the next few months, the distribution kind of evened out. And now I feel like it's more equal, but I also feel like I've been really lucky in that even when the distribution wasn't so even, I don't feel like it got in the way of me being able to contribute to the team or in the way of my personal or career development. I feel like I've had a lot of great mentors and role models here and both men and women. And I feel like the teammates treat each other with respect regardless of their appearance or background. That's great. So let's go to Billy. What about you? How's your journey to Zully Explorer? Hey, my journey to Zully Explorer was pretty much started when I joined IBM about three and a half years ago. I joined up and was working with the beta team that first designed Zully. And from there, my squad in IBM was formed. And when Zully Explorer was introduced, we were brought on to work on that and was also my first open source project. So like Lauren mentioned, we're on the same team there at IBM and it's a pretty even team between women and men and everybody is very respectful. And I enjoy working with everybody and working on the Zully Explorer squad. So in your university class, it was even as well for you. Is that the same experience that Lauren had? With the university, when I first started out, I was the only woman in the class. But as I went along and through the years before graduation, it started evening out more. So it seems like more women in tech were starting to join. The further I went along. It's great to hear. How about you, Gaten? How did you get started with Zully Explorer? Okay, so I guess I'll start with college as well. I studied mathematics in college and I went to a pretty small college. So our class had maybe like 10 people in the graduating group. And it was a little bit less women, more guys, but it was about evenly spaced. And then I sort of realized two thirds of the way through college that programming was really for me. And so I started taking them into programming classes, which are also more guys than girls, probably more students in general. Maybe we had 50 people in that class and maybe 30 of them were girls. And then I finished at a university. I moved to Prague and I got my first job here, which was not Broadcom. It was at another company and it was just me and one other girl. And everybody else was guys. That was more of like an engineering field. And we were both doing software, sort of. The work was designing plants that produced flour, you know, like cooking flour. And we were the only two girls on the group. And all of the guys, I think mostly that was because the guys were going on commissioning. So they would travel to all sorts of places all over the world. And some of those places doesn't really make sense to send a girl. I mean, they're going to Saudi Arabia and places in the Middle East. So yeah, I stopped working there partially because I didn't feel like I could really move further in the programming field, not because I was a girl or anything, but because they were doing a different kind of programming than I know how to do. So I switched to Broadcom and Broadcom was really, really evenly spaced. I feel like our team is pretty well split, especially maybe more while I was there. I know that two guys signed after, after I left. And everything, you know, was fine there socially. And at my current position, I'm still pretty new there. So figuring out the number of people on the team is still unsure because we're all working from home, but it's again, two chicks. And I think maybe, I don't know, maybe 20 to 30 people on the team total, maybe. No, it's got to be less. It's more like 15 to 20. So that's, that's roughly the split. And is Zoe your first open source collaboration as well? I believe so, yes. What about you, Jelly? What's your experience like? Well, for me, I believe normally in Asia, the split between women and men are kind of equal. I don't know, but when I started in university or in college, I graduated as computer science with a computer science degree. And my classmates are, I feel like it's evenly spaced. If it's not, then I'm very bad at noticing these things. And then when I joined the local bank of the Philippines after graduating, I believe the mainframe department has more women. So I would say it's a 60, 40% in overall mainframe departments. So it was kind of nice because you have, let's say, a balance between genders. But when I moved to Europe, I started when I started moving to Cornell in Czech Republic, then I noticed that there's a big difference in women and men as part of one organization. So I start, I work in Czech Republic as a support. So I have, let's say, from the Philippines, going to the Czech Republic, I'm an application developer, mainly focusing on Kabul. But then I switched to system administrator in Czech Republic. And there I would, I could see that there are a lot of men, especially in the system admin part. And most of the time, most of the men that I've worked with are from the L1 support. So these are the people who are working from night shift and stuff. And normally we're split into four shifts. And per shift we have one female. And I'm the female in that shift, or I'm the woman in that shift. And then I went to Broadcom. I am very fortunate enough to be part of, or my every team that I've joined, we have, let's say, more women in the team, maybe because I've been partnered with Grisha. So at least there's two women into the team. Every time I switch to a different team. And then when I joined Zoey, Caitlin was there. And then the Zoey Explorer squad also has wonderful women there. So I'm very, very fortunate. But if I look, let's say, if I zoom out and check the organization itself or the value stream that we have, there's definitely less women than the men in comparison. So I've heard a variety of stories going to Zoey Explorer. And some of you have less experience in mainframe than others. So let's maybe go to Lauren or Caitlin to explain your first experience with working on the mainframe and what it does in before being exposed to it via Zoey Explorer. Lauren, go ahead. Sure. So as I had been introduced by Rachelle, I'm a front end developer, which means I work a lot with like the graphical user interfaces, web interfaces. And that was what a lot of my schooling was in. So once I got into IBM, that was my first exposure to mainframes. And for me, it was like a really big change. Our interface was the TN, or the 3270 emulator. And also known as the green screen, it's very text based and it's completely different from what I was used to working with. I had a lot of trouble adjusting to it. And even now I'm still kind of shaky with it. So for me, working on a product that is made to help newcomers or designed with newcomers in mind to help them get started with mainframe development has been helpful for me as well for getting more familiar with mainframe application development and the ins and outs of that. Yeah, I think that was nice for me as well that I got to work on something that was going to help new people come in. Plus we got so much feedback from the master of the mainframe course that that was really cool. Because we were having trouble getting feedback on what we were doing and to hear it all at once, that was really great. My first experience was similar, I think, to Lauren's. I remember I read a blog article on how the mainframe works and the different basic parts of it, like the first week that I started at Broadcom. And it reminded me of my intro to computer science courses. Telling you about all the different parts of the computer and how they interact and all this stuff. And I would say, honestly, the modern tools are much better because it didn't take me very long to start contributing, even though I really don't know that much. And I really leaned on Jesse Lane on Jelly a lot to test my stuff and even understand what it was or how it was that I could test it. But it was definitely a learning experience. It was kind of cool to see how things have been done almost from the beginning of computers. I'm interested, Billy, in what you said earlier about your part of the beta project, the first work on Zoey. I wonder what that means, like the first steps of connecting mainframe with open source and what that entails. When I first joined up with IBM, I knew nothing about mainframes. I was fresh out of college and I came in and there really wasn't even a team built. I was the first member and I was here by myself for about a month, month and a half with really no team to work with. And so when I found out I was put into mainframes and working with Z systems, I just kind of crammed a bunch of education in and joined the meetings for the initial Zoey team back when it was beta. And it was really interesting, you know, trying to learn all that and trying to set Zoey up on my own, not knowing anything about mainframes and trying to get it installed and work with it. And this isn't Zoey Explorer. This is pre-Zoey Explorer. So this was, you know, the browser based Zoey installed on the ZOS. And it was really wild and, you know, joining all those meetings that Alvin Tann was running and you had Joe Winchester and Collin Stone and all of the first, you know, when they were first talking about, okay, we're going to, we're going to build this new product that makes it easier for people fresh out of college to adapt and work with mainframes. And I thought it was really cool that I was, you know, kind of a part of that as it was first talking out. And I'm more of a back-end developer. So I'm used to the terminal. So working with the 3270 emulator, it was a little different because it's not, you know, it's not the same commands as a terminal and stuff like that. So you had to learn all the new commands for TSO and everything. But it was very interesting and I enjoy it. So from that, I've been picking up more education for system administration and stuff like that. That's great. For me, it's a totally different experience because I came from a mainframe background. To me, putting mainframe and open source in the same sentence wasn't really, it wasn't heard of. So my experience with Zoys is totally different. I was excited because I, in with my background as a mainframeer, I was very interested in how I could have used it when I was still a cobald developer, an application developer for a brand. So that's my journey to Zoys. But now, maybe let's dive deeper into what, let me see, I've mentioned Zoys a lot, but let's maybe define it a bit more. So I would like to ask Jelly, I'd like to ask Jelly to give us an overview about the project. Sure. Zoys is a modern open source interface for the mainframe. It is hosted by Linux Foundation's open mainframe project, we call that OMP, and it's the first open source project based on ZEDOS. And the initial contributors for this came from Broadcom, IBM, and Rocket Software. It has five components, as you can see here on the slide. It has a command line interface. It has an API mediation layer that serves as your portal for all of your web services. It has an IDE extension or a VS Code extension, which is, we are part of that squad. And it also has a web UI component where you are allowed to have a web desktop browser. And it has a software developer kit, software development kit. And this kit allows you to extend all of these four components and create your own plugin. So you can create your own CLI plugin, your API mediation layer instance, your VS Code extension, and as well as a plugin in the web desktop. Zoys opens mainframe securely to enterprise DevOps. It builds community around mainframe DevOps, and it makes mainframe an exciting career choice. And today, Zoys has a big community, and we are all collaborating and helping each other through Slack. Exactly. I think let's talk about the mainframe community and within the Zoys open community. So let's talk about collaborating within that. So how would, Jelly, let's start with you. How would you define that collaboration? I think that collaboration for me is really great. They are very friendly, you know. They're very helpful, especially our squad. I'm very proud of our squad. We are very friendly when we want to help people to discover what Zoys really means and how can you integrate all of these open source tooling to mainframe. So in our community, we write blogs, we connect to our users. In collaboration with master the mainframe and also the open mainframe projects, cobalt programming course, we are providing support for our students, you know, so that they could have a better experience while using Zoys Explorer as well as the extensions built on top of Zoys Explorer, which is the FTP or the kicks, even our internal, let's say, own project or own VS Code extension. We are also providing support for them. So I do love our collaboration and our community because it's a very, let's say, collaborative experience. Lauren, did you see any pros and cons to the collaboration you mentioned that the Zoys community consists of different companies? So do you see any pros and cons in the experience? Sure. So like Deli mentioned, our particular community in Zoys and the Zoys Explorer squad, I found it very welcoming because, as I said before, Zoys Explorer is my first open source project. And I was kind of intimidated by it at first because, you know, I hadn't worked on it before or any other open source project. So when I ever had heard about these, you know, open source during my classes or during hackathons or whatever, it always sounded like a very individual endeavor. Like you would sit in your corner, you'd program and you'd make your pull request and, you know, you would just hope that somebody pays attention to you. But when I joined Zoys, I found that it's, as Deli has been saying, it's a very welcoming community. And I was really surprised by how organized it is and how much there is a community. So, you know, it's not just people sitting in a corner programming. You've got, you know, squads for each component. We are the Zoys Explorer squad. And we have squad scrum meetings, you know, that are actually people getting together on a Zoom call and talking through issues together and pull requests together. And for me, that's been very engaging and very encouraging. And I think that really helps keep Zoys, the community and also the products itself, you know, very active. So that's the pros. As for cons, I don't really see any that are really specific to Zoys. I think, you know, we do have people from different companies and sometimes you have like, you know, different companies may have different interests or different directions they may want to take Zoys or Zoys Explorer. But I don't think these differences are, you know, they don't cause more problems for Zoys or Zoys Explorer than you would see in a different open source project that also is collaborated on by different companies. So, you know, you just, to resolve the issues, you know, you kind of just think at the core what benefits the community as a whole, not just the company, but, you know, your users that you're developing for and the wider Zoys community. And I think going back to that core vision or shared value helps kind of smooth over those differences that we may have even though we come from different companies. Well said, thanks. Kepin, what about you? How was your experience with open community of Zoys? I would say it's quite similar to what the others said. I will say I learned a lot at Broadcom and I really liked how friendly the community was. You know, it's a lot different from going to Stack Exchange and asking a question and have everyone bark at you. It was really friendly. And I mean, coming from somebody who doesn't know much about mainframe, I didn't feel like I was asking stupid questions. Although I was definitely afraid when I started, like, okay, I shouldn't ask something that would be stupid, but, you know, everybody on the team is really friendly and willing to explain things impatient. And I think maybe part of that also comes from the master of the mainframe that people do ask questions. And Jelly and Rochelle are, you know, there to answer and to help out. So that was really nice. I liked how fast things went. So, you know, you open a pull request and you're going to get a review within the week. I mean, unless we're like right about to release the next version, you're going to get a review almost right away. So that was really nice to get feedback very quickly. Cons, yes, as Lauren said, there were sometimes some priority differences based on, you know, which company you came from. And sometimes it would be hard to work on Zoey Explorer because you had other priorities, you know, for whichever company you work for. But I think that was mostly it. I remember there were some problems with the meeting times that it kept waffling. It wasn't really a problem, but it kept waffling between, you know, because the American group and the American team wanted it to be, what was it? I guess, I guess later. And the European team wanted to be earlier so that it wasn't right at five. But as far as problems go, that's pretty minor. It was just kind of, you know, funny at the time. Yeah. It's just about communication, I think. So Billy, how about you? How was your experience? And do you feel like the community has a passion for mainframe modernization as Zoey community itself? Yes, I think there is a passion for the mainframe and that's what really drives all the community collaboration and everything. I do agree about, you know, maybe a con on, you know, the companies with their own processes and everything. But that's the best thing about the open community squads and everything. You don't go one way or the other with the processes. We decide together how we'd like to go. We may even create a whole new process so that it stands alone and isn't just like the separate communities, the separate companies that are all aligned with the project. I think, in my opinion, it really boils down with just communication, you know, whether or not like different companies have different priorities. If you communicate with each other, you will find the middle ground and what Billy said, they're going to go through that middle ground so that all of you will benefit from that. I would also like to add, yeah, for sure, communication definitely helps. And speaking of communication, I remember that it was sometimes difficult to get feedback on our products from customers. So if you're using our products, please tell us what you think. It'd be super useful. Definitely. And yeah, for me as well, I think the common theme is all of the squads, especially during our program increment planning, I feel like in the community itself, everyone is working towards mainframe modernization and making that transition from the legacy and old style of working with the mainframe with the new ones. I think I really feel that in the passion. So now let's go to the section on how Zoey Explorer contributes to that, to the mainframe modernization. And I would like to ask Lauren to describe the user experience in Zoey Explorer. Sure. So as Jelly had explained earlier in her slides, Zoey Explorer is a Visual Studio Code or VS Code extension, and it allows the developers and mainframe system administrators to interact with their mainframe resources using a local graphical user interface, which is the embedding in VS Code. And this is a really big difference from the traditional more text-based 3270 emulator, also known as the green screen, which has a much deeper learning curve as I had mentioned before. So for Zoey Explorer, we really want to make interacting with the mainframe more intuitive by placing these mainframe interactions into the more user-friendly tree browser in the VS Code views inside the integrated development environment or IDE. For Zoey, as an organization, one of its main goals is to make getting started with mainframe development easier, more familiar, simpler, and more attractive to developers. And because many of today's developers tend to be more familiar with the graphical user interfaces of popular IDEs like VS Code, which happens to be one of the most popular IDEs out there, Zoey Explorer is a really great tool for these developers to jump into the world of mainframe development. Sounds like a great product. Of course. So now let's move to Kate then, and I would like to ask you, Kate, then to explain how this Zoey Explorer squad communication works in your experience, what that looks like. Yes, ma'am. Usually, let's talk about it from like a day-to-day or week-to-week perspective. We usually have one meeting every day or one meeting every other day, stand up to talk about what we've been working on. And basically we talk about all of the pull requests that we had open at that time. So all of the squad chat is on Slack. And also it makes it really easy to communicate with the mainframe community, especially the master of the mainframe people, because they also are communicating with us on Slack. And yeah, it was really open. I would say that communication happened whenever you wanted it to. You could communicate with the entire squad at once, or you could communicate with one or two, however many people were interested in some issue that you were talking about. Thank you, Kate then. Billy, do you feel like there's a positive culture in the squad, even though we come from different companies? Oh, definitely. Everybody is very respectful of each other and open here each other's ideas and collaborate on that. And we all learn from each other and share our knowledge. So yes, I really think the squad has a very good feel about it. So, you know, when I first joined, I'm probably the newest member of the squad on the call here. I've been with the Zoey Explorer what, maybe a year, a year and a half now. And, you know, like Lauren mentioned earlier, you know, going into open source could be a little intimidating. But, you know, once I got into the calls and got working on the project and everything, it was really smooth transition in and I felt very welcoming. That's good to hear. Both you, Lauren, how do you manage internal priorities and contributing to open source in terms of balancing that work? So a lot of this is making sure that Zoey Explorer is like a robust product that we can build upon. Zoey Explorer is extensible, like Jelly was saying during her overview of Zoey. And so you want to make sure that as a base product, it's strong and, you know, it caters to the needs of its users. So even though your internal commitments might be different or they might want to take Zoey Explorer in a certain direction, you have to kind of make sure that the basics are covered. Regarding things like, you know, your user experience, you want to make sure that's good for everybody. You know, nobody's going to benefit if a company takes it in a direction where the user experience is bad. So you want to make sure, you know, keep the user in mind at the forefront and making sure that you communicate again within your squad or, you know, with the Zoey Explorer squad and that really helps kind of balance the priorities between your internal commitments and the more, you know, open source ones. It's kind of, yeah, just making sure that you're putting the user first and making sure that Zoey Explorer is just a strong extension that other, you know, whether it's IBM or Broadcom, other companies can build upon. It's about a good user experience and not just for new main framers, but also for experienced main framers who want to be more efficient in their work. I think it's definitely a good direction to go. So I want to go to Jelly and you mentioned earlier connecting with Jelly when she first joined the squad, connecting to Lauren when she first joined the squad. Do you think that these connections you made with these other women in the squad help you to have healthier debates in whether we agree on a certain direction? I think so. I think really communication is the key to all of these things. And I think one of the great things that we have, at least for what we've been trying to say is that we have one goal and that is to provide the best user experience for our users and having that mindset and having the ability to communicate to each other and explain our goals, then we are able to do, it's a form objectives that is beneficial for all of us. I remember when IBM started joining our group and contributing a lot more, they were thinking about extensibility and I truly love that idea because for me personally, I don't know how to do it. And so when Billy and Lauren started refactoring our code, organizing it, making it easier for us developers to read it, and then they provided this API so that others can create their extensions on top of Zoey Explorer. I think that's a really great move, that's a really great features because now not just vendors, mainframe vendors, mainframe users and even individual contributors can now create their own extensions on top of Zoey Explorer. So if let's say I want some feature that nobody wants to create, I could create my own. And this kind of communication to different companies, different people and having that one mindset still, it's the important key to have this great user experience implemented in Zoey or Zoey Explorer in general. Yeah, Rochelle, I don't know if you wanted to add your thoughts. I just have one more thing to add before we switch slides. Go ahead. I just want to say, working there, it was super easy to collaborate with other people and it was really nice because I felt like I learned quite a lot just by some issue would come up and it was related to, I don't know, CICD or it was related to tests or it was related to building some larger part of the products like profiles. And maybe I didn't work on that by myself but even just getting the opportunity to try and to work on it with other more senior programmers in a certain area, it was a really great learning experience and I really got to try just about everything that I wanted to try. So there wasn't any limitation like, oh, you don't know enough about that so we're gonna choose somebody else who can do it faster and you just work on what you know. It was really great to be able to just sort of spread out and be like, oh, I'm interested in CICD this week so I'm gonna try that. I totally agree with that and having everybody with the different backgrounds and everything when we did have these discussions, you've got multiple perspectives and ideas and it was really great to collaborate those ideas and find a good solution that you may not have thought about on your own. Yeah, for sure, absolutely. Yep, 100% I agree. I'm a cobal developer. I don't know how to code in TypeScript and when I joined the squad, I learned how to do it so it's really, really helpful. I learned a lot as well. Yeah, I think our squad really embraced our diversity and not just in terms of geography, in terms of gender, in terms of all these other things but even our experiences, whether if it's distributed back and front and mainframe, I think it's the lesson there is to embrace that. It's a strength and not a weakness. So I think we can move to the next topic which is representation in the broader Zoe community. So our panelists, four out of five are represented in the Zoe community leadership. So I would like to ask Billy to explain what that means, what that entails. Sure, thanks, Rachele. I myself am the Zoe Explorer Technical Steering Committee representative and the Zoe community believes in transparent and open implementation of processes and deliveries. They like to say open first, developing transparently with an inclusive environment where anyone willing can easily find a way to participate and contribute. So with this in mind, all status updates, squad meetings and demos of progress are open to the public. The Zoe community is stakeholder-centric where stakeholders include end users, exploiters, deploying enterprises or the Zoe advisory council. The Zoe community use stakeholder feedback when planning future work during our PI planning and iterations and we keep them informed on how the feedback is received and responded to. Lauren is our Zoe Explorer Security Group representative and this group deals with the security issues raised and coordinate remediation of the vulnerabilities with the affected squad or squads. Thank you. So I want to ask Billy about your TSE representative for Zoe Explorer. I wonder if you've encountered any barriers in you feeling confident about decision-making as part of that group for our squad. I'm really new to the position and being our representative. It has been interesting. I joined the weekly calls and I brought up a few questions and stuff we would like to get insight in. So especially when it is in regards to our Zoe Explorer extenders and then just keeping our community statuses up to date with our committers and everything because the OMP community presents badges to Zoe committers that they can use. They can have those badges on their LinkedIn accounts. It will show that they have this experience with the open community and with the modernization of the mainframes and helping out there. I've been to a few of the other calls, the architectural call and got some feedback there. It's been a lot of fun talking with all the other representatives from the squads and listening to what they want to share and how the progress on their products are going as well. Learn can you talk about your experience with the security work group? Sure. So like Billy, I'm also quite new to this position and in fact the security work group is kind of evolving right now. So we are hoping to make our practices for security more robust, more transparent for our users. And so right now we're kind of gathering perspectives from the different squads on how to handle security issues you know, what's, we actually do like scans on a regular basis for security issues. But we are trying to coordinate how do we handle our process for approving a release? What's our process for how security is factored? Like how does the security squad communicate with like say the technical steering committee to let them know whether or not they think our release is ready to go out in the perspective from a security perspective. So that's what a lot of the work right now is as well as also around trying to improve the way we communicate how we do security at SOE. We were trying to improve the way we do that as well. It's good to hear. I think we've touched on this earlier but making decisions and feeling confident about those decisions. I think it's easy if we know that it's about making things better for our users and for the community in general. I think it's a good point. So in closing, I want each of our panelists to describe briefly what you think the future of the crime development will look like. Let's start with Bailey. Okay. The future of mainframe development. I believe it really depends on the feedback we get from our users and the people that are adopting our products and everything. That feedback really helps form that future. And they may be seeing issues or want enhancements or something that we haven't even thought of. So if you feel like there's something missing, definitely let us know. And we'll discuss it as a team and see how relevant that is and keep a conversation going about it. I think that will really frame that future development. Other than that, it's more of just making everything cleaner and work a little bit better. Just finalizing and getting stuff going like that. That's very helpful. What about you, Kaitlyn? What do you think future of mainframe development will look like? I think that the Open Mainframe Project is going to play a big role. Just because as somebody coming into it, it definitely affected how I worked with mainframe. And I'm doubtful that it will be easy to get enough mainframeers into mainframe without it. And I'm not an experienced mainframeer. I know that sometimes it can be hard to convince older members of the community that it's actually worthwhile to do this because they didn't need it and they were just fine. And I'm not sure all of the reasons behind that, but I would say that from my perspective as a younger mainframeer who's used to using Git and VS Code and using tools that sort of work with a mouse, for instance, or work from the command line and you don't have to use weird function keys to navigate around. It's definitely been very helpful for me to use the modern mainframe and I honestly can't imagine using mainframe without it. So I really see that as the future that we're moving towards. So let's go to a more experienced mainframeer, Jenny. Let's see our perspective. So for me, as somebody who started with mainframe for like 13 years, about maybe 10 years, using the 3270 screen, I think really the future of mainframe, I agree with you, open mainframe will have a big role in this. And I do like that with our project, with the Zoey Explorer, I could use a mouse, I could use a right click to do this navigation and to connect with data sets and stuff. And so I think the future of mainframe development is good and it's bright, it's going to be beautiful. If a lot of people will try and use Zoey, I think that the modernization part is quite innovative in this way. I remember my manager said that it's very weird for him to hear mainframe and innovation together as connected to each other. And with Zoey and open mainframe in the picture, those two things are something that's very possible. So I think it's a good future. That's why I'm an ambassador for open mainframe, because I truly believe in this project. And if I am going to use it as an experienced mainframe developer, I think it's very useful for me. Alright, why don't you close us off? So I totally agree with what Billy, Katelyn and Jellie said. And because I come from a similar perspective as Katelyn, I will kind of hook into that and say that Zoey, because it's got these goals of trying to make the mainframe development more attractive to new people, it's going to be a big part of it. Like I agree with her on this, just because we're kind of doing this outreach to people who might not usually be thinking about mainframe development, and we're starting to kind of reach these populations of developers that maybe weren't going to be part of the pool of people who would be contributing to mainframe development. So for things like Zoey Explorer, for example, I think that's really important. You know, we don't want to scare people away from mainframe development. The mainframe is really powerful and it's, you know, we need people to be able to maintain those programs that will keep them running and doing what they're supposed to be doing. So I think one indicator of this is the way that Zoey Explorer has been integrated into quite a few COBOL courses, at least three, master the mainframe being one of them. It's now called IBM Z. I think it's now called IBM Z Explorer. They changed their name, but essentially it's still using Zoey Explorer to get people into mainframe application development. And I think it's really important because, you know, when you start people on these tools and you start them on tools, you know, things that they're familiar with as a jumping off point to get into the world of mainframe development, you know, once they become familiar with those tools, they start wanting to use them for their jobs. So I think Zoey will play a big part of that. The development mainframe project will play a big part of that. And that'll be good for me because I still struggle with the 3270 emulator. So, you know, I like seeing it move in this direction that's more intuitive for me. And also, you know, our other users too. Thanks for all your thoughts. I think what really stood out from all of you, what you said is that it's about always improving. It's about always learning. And that's true as well, not just for mainframe development, but for collaborating within community and an open source community at that. So that's it for our panel discussion. If you want to continue the conversation, these are links that you can go to engage with us. All of us are active on Slack, as mentioned earlier. So if that's the best way and the quickest way to reach us and talk to us, all our scrum meetings are open. So you just subscribe to the mailing list and you can join us and talk to us there as a squad as well. Our squad values feedback and the quickest way to give us your thoughts is to via our GitHub repository. You can open issues or submit bug reports. So finally, I want to thank you again. Thank you, ladies. And thanks for the lively discussion and I've learned and I've enjoyed learning from all of you. Thanks. Thanks. Bye. Thank you. Having us, Rachelle.