 So, help people understand animism compared to, let's say, panpsychism, or compared to materialism, or compared to idealism, without getting too much into the philosophical kind of part of that. But just at a really kind of quick level, the people who are saying animism when they throw it in that same sentence with idealism and, you know, what are they talking about? Okay, yeah. So, again, going back to what I was saying about spirits and stuff, that was kind of an old, kind of like an outdated way of thinking about things, so it was implicitly loaded with assumptions about the people who were animists, so it was suggesting that the people who were animists were kind of primitive and that their way of thinking was useless. So right from the very beginning, anthropology is kind of like, it's been interested in animism, but again, it's kind of bracketed out, it's kind of ontological truth value. If you can talk about such a thing. And so there's just a bunch of beliefs relative to that. Let me interject. What happened later? Let me interject and see if this is true or not, because sometimes me coming as a total novice might help, but you've got to correct me because it's totally wrong. So the anthropologist walks into the forest of New Guinea and he goes and talks to the shaman and the shaman says, that tree just talked to me and that rock is also is wise in this way and the water is this. And the guy's taking his notes, he goes, OK, this guy's really kind of has this really weird belief system because he thinks all these things are alive and have this spiritual quality to them, right? So that's the is that what originally they thought animism was from? Yeah, Dan, they thought it was a belief system because they implicitly understood that again, the Western materialist scientific ontology was the only one that's actually true. The only one that's actually real. So, yeah, eventually, though, through more and more ethnographic engagement with people, so more and more anthropologists going out over the years and living with people and interacting with them, learning their lifeways, they're going to realize that animism isn't just a belief system. The animism is actually a mode of engaging with the world. So it's a way of living in the world. It's not just about beliefs. It's about practice and experience and participation in the world. And this is now animism is often referred to as a kind of as a relational ontology. So the foundational components of animism, the foundational elements of it are to do with relationships between persons. And they say that not all persons are human. So in anthropology, we talk about other than human persons as well. So these could be rocks, plants, animals and all of the other kinds of spirits and gods and deities as well. But the important thing is the situating the situating of societies within a network of relationships. So this is where the this is where the ontology differs from materialist ontologies and, you know, all the other kinds of Western mainstream ontologies is that we're realizing through animism that we're embedded in this bigger network of of interactions with different kinds of minds, different kinds of intelligences and that they're the front. These relationships are the fundamental kind of building blocks of reality. And then add to that flood that with our understanding, our gradual understanding of the paranormal and someone goes out and encounters spirits or our understanding through parapsychology of medium research or of other encounters with the paranormal that now eat away at the underlying assumption that was originally made that not only is it a belief system, but it's an incorrect belief system. So you're you're crushing the idea that it's a belief system. It's not a belief system. It's a total engagement with reality. But then add to that that there is a reality to that reality and that my presuppositions about how the world works and the craziness of this spiritual realm have now begun to crumble with the parapsychologists and the paranormal people. Right. So I mean, all these things are happening kind of at once in real time and having these different effects and forces on the whole process. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And then so we should add to that conversation then and I want you to pick this up because I think this is what throws people sometimes too. And it's it's a lot to deconstruct is that animism is now being reintroduced into these conversations like with you and Gordon as an alternative to idealism as an alternative to materialism. And I think we've just given given people an idea of why that conversation goes on. But maybe we need to add to that a little bit and explain how those kind of are now put on. Oh, yeah. Panpsychism is basically like animism and that's different than idealism and materialism. I mean, do you have any thoughts in terms of helping people kind of understand that? Well, yeah, it's it's kind of like a murky territory. I know that Gordon, for example, Gordon doesn't like the idea of panpsychism and he like you like talking about Dean, thinks that panpsychism is kind of like a backdoor materialism again at the end of the day. It's a crutch. Yeah. Well, you think that's a Gordon's crutch. No, no, no, I think I think it's a I think it's a crutch. I think it's the, you know, it's the last bastion of of materialism. Hold on, hold out, you know, one foot on the dock, one foot in the boat kind of thing. Mixing metaphors, but yeah, it's on the it's on the way towards animism, but it's not willing to go all the way. And when when we talk about panpsychism, for example, we're talking about some kind of like a fundamental kind of consciousness that or a fundamental awareness that isn't, you know, it's not consciousness as we understand it, it's just it's the basis of awareness. Whereas when we're coming from an animistic perspective, that other consciousness has just as much agency and intention in the world as we do, they just express themselves in different kinds of ways. So the consciousness of a rock isn't necessarily just some kind of like a flat flat line background consciousness, but actually it possesses its own agency and intention in the same way that that we do, but it expresses its agency and intention in the world in a very different way, perhaps over like vast, vast timescales or things like that. OK, and this is fun because this is now an opportunity to take the conversation one step further because I'm listening to you and Gordon and all your cool thoughts on Amazon, I'm thinking, but guys, you've missed the point in the same way. It's on the way towards what again? I mean, take these different wisdom traditions and I've always been interested in yoga and in the East and in particular, the Fadanta, non-dual kind of thing. Hey, man, all those people, they're saying, sure, it's spirits here, spirits there, spirits everywhere on the way towards what? It's about transcending that spiritual reality and getting to what's next. So it does seem to me to be somewhat of an arbitrary stopping point to say, ah, we've got it, we've arrived at animism. You know, it's like this discussion you're having about does animism assume idealism and it's like, no, of course not, because idealism is really saying that it's all is closer to that that non-dual, Vedantic kind of it all goes into one. There the wave in the ocean are just separate only because we imagine them to be separate. So I've teed it up enough there. Let's start that discussion. Yeah. Well, I agree with you because I don't think well, I don't think that animism is the place to stop necessarily. But again, like you're saying, it's with one step closer to whatever the ultimate thing is. But I think it's a particularly useful way of thinking about the world, given that we have for the past 150 years been literally destroying our planet. It gives us kind of like a framework to rebuild our relationship with the kind of like the ground of our being here. Do you see what I mean? It's thinking in terms of relationships shows that we are part of this wider network of things, whether it turns out to be an idealist universe or multiverse or whatever. Animism teaches us that we have to look at our kind of the local area as well.