 A very good morning to you. Thank you so much for being part of Why in the Morning. Welcome back. This is Y254 TV. Now my name is Ram Agucco. It is a pleasure being with you today on this fine Tuesday morning. You're just in time for the next conversation of the day and it's all about matters concerning your health. Today we want to find out, you know, how deep does mental health go? Let's talk about this particular issue. What do we mean when we talk about mental health? Is it possible for you to know somebody who is mentally okay, mentally healthy? They want to talk about specifically suicide and emotional well-being. How can you engage your son and your daughter in a manner that you can be able to understand or gauge or comprehend that they are actually well, mentally, emotionally, psychologically? How can we have this kind of atmosphere where you can have these conversations with your own children, with your own parents, canyons? Let's talk about mental well-being and suicide, emotional well-being and suicide. What is it that we need to do to reduce the suicide rates in the country? Well, today to help us in this particular conversation, I am with one person who has been in this field for quite a very long time. This is Dr. Evangeline Wangechi. She is a seasoned and, of course, a passionate advocate of mental awareness. And, of course, she has been active in consulting with major universities, contributing as a professor with specialization in social and cultural diversity, emotional wellness that we are going to talk about and, of course, issues concerning trauma therapy. So, Dr. Wangechi, Karebusana. Thank you, Asante. I hope you're well. I'm doing great. You're quite CV. I love the things that you're doing and when I was going through it, I was really interested in finding out more about what you do. Now, before we get into this particular conversation, let us know more about what you do. You are a professor. Yes. You teach and, of course, you handle matters concerning health. Let's talk about that. Let us know more about what you do from a professional standpoint and, of course, how you engage even people socially. Yeah. So, thank you for your time. I am a professor. I consult with different universities, Arizona State University, Grand Canyon University, and also other community health clinics. I've worked in the field for 15 years, very passionate about this whole conversation about mental health. It is important to all of us because if we are not okay up here, right? So, it's going to affect our physical health. Yeah. Mental health is so critical, but it's also unfortunate that we have failed as a society to take that step of bringing that awareness. So, in my engagement with different stakeholders from, you know, learning institutions, the community health to individuals, I found out that we just cannot stop talking about mental health. And this is the time. This is the time. This is the time. And even as you could continue to talk about this, and of course I'd like you to engage with us from home, the hashtag is Y in the morning at Ram Agucco and at Y254 channel. That is the official station handle. Remember, we are broadcasting live through our website. That's at www.kabc.co.ke4 slash Y254. So, of course, we value your feedback. Engage with us. Let us know where you're watching us from. Nadotou and Geshi is going to answer all your questions concerning emotional well-being, mental health. And of course, we are going to delve deep into matters concerning suicide because mental health is broad. But now suicide is an issue that we need to talk about, especially at a time like this. But before we delve deep, when we say mental health, many or some may think we are talking about losing your mind, madness of going crazy. What exactly are we referring to? As we progress with our conversation, no need for anybody to walk on eggshells when they hear mental health. Actually, mental health is, because there is some confusion between mental health and mental disorder or mental health condition. Mental health is that state of well-being for an individual to be able to identify your own abilities to cope with normal stresses of life. That's mental health. And the mental disorder or mental health condition means then somebody has a diagnosis of maybe depression, a mental health disorder. So there's a diagnosis of maybe PTSD. It could be bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, just different things. So there's a difference there. So if someone says that we need to check into your mental well-being, they're not insulting you. There's no insult. They're just caring. They're showing compassion. They're expressing empathy. And just like I would ask about, how is your physical health? How do we feel about that? Exactly. Yeah. So it's pretty much the same thing. We just need to normalize the conversation surrounding our own emotional well-being. And understand that if emotionally we are dysregulated, then our normal life will be also dysregulated. We'll be, of course. And we need to pay attention to that. Yeah. Now, if you look at the state of the country, as you know it, and of course you've interacted with so many people. Yes. And you've interacted not just so many people, but even as youths. Because I know you are at the Young African Leaders Initiative. Yes. The Mandela Washington Initiative. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. They changed the name. Yeah. The Young African Leaders Initiative. Yeah. You've interacted with so many people and you've been able to pick notes. You can see these people are not comfortable talking about it. These people are comfortable talking about it. If you look at matters concerning emotional well-being now, how far are we when you look at how we handle the young people, the youths, in regards to emotional well-being? Yeah. Are we good? Do we handle them well, the youths? I have to say there is hope for Kenya. I'm a Kenyan from Machinani, right? Yeah. So there is hope for us. And even for us to be having right now this conversation, it's progress. I call it, it's a good step in the right direction. Yeah. But then now is, how do we engage the youth? Because we do need everybody to be at the table when we need to listen to everyone. So I think it's now, what do we do knowing that the whole issue of mental health conditions or even the statistics are showing in Kenya, one in ten has a mental health condition. And then one in four, those who visit the clinic or hospital, one in four has a mental health disorder. So those are many people. If you're given a hundred, let us see, maybe one million people visited the hospital this week. And one in four have a mental disorder. That means you have 250,000. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people. So we need to bring everybody, we need to talk about the issues that are affecting us and impacting our productivity, our relationships. It's hard to make informed decisions when mentally there is, you know, some concerns. Disconnects. There's a disconnect. Now, because of that, and the reason why I ask that is because suicide cases have reason. They have reason. And the number is quite alarming. If you look at the number of suicide case rates, you begin to wonder, could it have been prevented or prevented? Could it have been stopped? Is it possible for you to detect something at the early stages? And that's what I was asking. How are we handling our youths? How are we coming them well now? Let's bring it to the suicide aspect of it. Is it possible for you to detect? It is possible because we look for signs and symptoms. Public education. Every platform. I am glad. Thank you for opening this platform because this is public. We are bringing this awareness to the people. So public education is important. We also need funding. We need a budget because how do you reach out to the youth that are struggling with suicide? We are struggling with so many issues. Unemployment is pretty high in this country. We had two years of COVID-19. We have our vibrant youth full of energy and hope and aspirations graduating from universities and colleges with hopes and dreams just like any other person. Where do they go after that? So all these socioeconomic issues we must address them. So it's not just the mental health condition and the suicide but what is impacting this? What is the trigger? What is triggering these issues? How do we stop it? And who is going to do it? So we need to accelerate the conversation and we need to take it seriously. We lose lives. We are losing lives. So how we approach the person? We need to pay more attention on whether it's alcohol and substance use issues among our youth. We need to make sure that they have employment. They need our support. And we are the people, the adults in the room, the professionals, the leadership. We cannot ignore this issue. Yes, Dr. Angeshi, I'm wondering, can you pick out somebody who has suicidal thoughts? Yes. It is possible. Because some people tend to withdraw. So let's say Jendo, not their real name. They were all social and entertaining. Jendo was the one entertaining everybody else. But all of a sudden now they start withdrawing. From the society. What they used to do. What they used to do. So there is that lack of pleasurable things that would entertain them or please them. So they tend to withdraw. Also the lack of sleep sometimes. Or people sleeping way too much over eating. Those are some of the things we must look for. Sometimes people are posting on their social media platforms about death and dying. So when somebody is fixated on death or I want to die or what if I died, nobody would care. So sometimes we look at these things and we think that they are just going through a moment. They look up the next day and they'll be okay. Yeah. It's not just a moment. We must pay attention to it. We must address it with a lot of sensitivity. We need to be kind. The approach must be very calculated when we are doing it. But there are symptoms. There are signs. We just need to pay more attention. There is also the issue of depression that kicks in. Because someone saying, you know, I want to die. Where did that thought come from? What triggered their thought? So there has to be a lot of hopelessness and helplessness. And feeling like nobody cares about me. And if I died, nobody will cry. Maybe no one will attend my funeral. So there is a lot of hopelessness. And that's why we got to listen. That's the best gift we can give to each other. But now you see, this is Africa. It is Africa. Where you'll find a Kenyan parent will be told by the child, I want to kill myself, I want to die. And the parent will say, do it. I will bury you. And we will mourn. And life will move on. And life will move on. But you know what, life we know for sure will not move on. But then how do you bring this kind of conversation in our home where a parent will say, just kill yourself. There's no problem. I have other kids. You're not the first one. I don't care. It is your life. If you want to destroy it, destroy it on your own. Parents, again, we all must be sensitive to these issues. When somebody starts that manner of conversation, I'm going to die. I'll kill myself. I mean, the more they continue that, it will and may turn to, yes, they will kill. Yes, the parent will cry. And they'll be sad. And they'll be mourning. Even though they tell you, I can buy you a rope. You don't have to say that. I've heard that. Yeah. I've heard all manner of things. But I think it's about time we grow up from that. Because these are serious issues. These are public health issues. And they are affecting our lives. Yeah. You know, going back to the parents and the children, yes, there are some parents that say that. But we have adverse childhood experiences. Those are trauma. Some of them are traumatic events. Things that somebody say. Things that are statements that our parents say to us. It may not hurt in the moment. I may not have that reaction in the moment. But in my adulthood, that may be triggered by something. Oh, my parent told me this. So we cannot be casual about these mental health conversations. We're going to have so many casualties. We already have had, you know... There's one that took place yesterday. Yes, about the 15-year-old young man. Yeah. So, no, no, no. We got to address this. Now, we've talked about how you can be able to pick some of these signs. And you're talking about how you're going to address. Now, let's give different scenarios and different circumstances. And, of course, I know that this conversation is going to help somebody who's watching us. So, if at all you have an issue, send us your question. Send us your issue. Dr. Wangeshi here will be able to answer them as we continue with this conversation. What a problem or what is your circumstance when it comes to mental health, suicide, and, of course, what we're going to talk about emotional well-being. Let's pick up a scenario where we have a child, a young man, who is coming from a dysfunctional family where the parents are having issues. You know, maybe it could be divorce. It could be a circumstance where, you know, the family is always going at each other. You know, they're always not understanding one another. So, the child feels out of place. What would you say should be done in a circumstance or that kind of a scenario? Yeah. So, you know, there are so many families, unfortunately, that there's dysfunction in the home. There's domestic, you know, issues in the home or yelling and just bickering and all of that. Number one, I think the mistake that the adults or the parents make is exposing their children to that, you know. That argument. The chaos in the home. You throw each other, you throw words, they listen. Right, they can hear you and they're watching you. You're really the first role models they're paying attention to. So, I think we need to protect the children. And also, these assumptions of their kids, they don't get it, they don't understand. They do. That is misleading. They do. And they're listening and they're taking notes. They will not forget, they will never forget. So, we need to get care for the children. There's therapy for children. You know, education, even with the teachers where these kids are going to school. I think we need to educate everybody on how can we provide services. Mental health care. We need the treatment. So, in such a home, the parents or the elderly should not argue in front of the child for the emotional well-being of that particular child. Correct. For his or her sake. Right. Take all your arguments and disagreements somewhere else for the sake of the well-being of your children. Now, yet we have some parents who involve their children in these arguments. Yeah. That's why we have something called family therapy. If there's dysfunction in the family, there's family therapy. Family therapy will help you resume together, come back at the table and figure out what is happening with us. Because something is out of order. Now, quickly. Some parents do this. They say that because I'm not talking to my husband and I'm not talking to my wife. So, they say to the child, go tell him. Yeah. Go tell her. Yeah. That's triangulation. Yeah. So, they're doing the triangulation. Yeah. They're putting the child to play the role of the adult. That's already a dysfunction in the whole family unit. Exactly. Because there's a role of the parent. There's a role of the child. And we need to let the children be the children and the adults to be the adults. And of course, I love that because this is the well-being, the emotional well-being of the child. Emotional well-being. Yeah. What we do and the business we expose to these children will impact their adult life. That is a no-brainer. It is going to happen. The decisions they make. Now, let's move on from the child. We come now to the parent. Yeah. I'm a husband to my wife and we have been arguing for so long and life is hard. COVID struck. Yes. I lost my job. I need to pay my rent. I have loans. My kids need to go back to school. My wife needs these manicure, pedicure, rent. Yes. Working their head on. It's a lot to take in as a man. And a man decides to do what you know what? I will kill my wife. I will kill my child and I'll kill myself. Yeah. Let's talk about that in particular. How should a man handle such kind of pressure and push away these suicidal tendencies? Yeah. I like to say be the master of your own emotions. Be your own master. Know the thoughts you think. What kind of thoughts? The emotions, the feelings you have. So when a thought like that crosses your mind, we need to stop and ask, where did that thought come from? What triggered their thought? What is going on in my life? Not somebody else. Unfortunately, we spend a whole lot of time worrying about what others are thinking about us, what they are saying about us. That is not so important. We need to pay attention to our own emotional well-being. And then, if there are concerns, then reach out for help. Identify someone who has the best interest at heart. Now, you are a man. Even men talk. That is the problem here. Even men talk. We have men who are thinking of committing suicide, but they are afraid of sharing. Because we live in a society where in Africa you are told, be a man. And you are afraid of sharing because once you share, they will consider you as weak. Oh, I like it. So, be a man is true. We do want you to be a man. And you are a man. And in fact, the sharing, the being vulnerable, its strength is not a weakness. So for a man to share with a trusted friend or even going for therapy or whatever, it shows you really care. And that is actually what makes you even more of a man. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's what makes you more of a man. Being vulnerable is a strength. It's not a sign of weakness. Because that shows you are ready to fight for your own emotional well-being, for your own life, for your family. Death by suicide is not a solution. Who should a man talk to? Oh. What are the options that are available that can give this man help? You know, people can even reach out to your spiritual leader. You know, they are, you know, your faith leader. Reach out to your faith leader and talk to them. Be vulnerable with that person. If they don't have the answer to what you're looking for, then of course, find a referral. Uh-huh. Yeah. You know, I don't encourage coworkers because you have a different relationship with coworkers. Yes, yes. You know, we need to teach people about setting healthy boundaries and knowing what is your space and your lane, you stay in your lane. But there is help. I mean, you can tell me somebody doesn't have a friend outside of work. If you don't have one, I think it's time to start working on one. Identifying one. A friend. A friend that you can talk to. Or even a sibling that you trust. But there is help. I don't think there is help. We just need to step out of it and acknowledge that I do need help because even that acknowledgement, it takes another courage to say, you know, I do need help. And it's now. Now, I'm looking at a son, still on men. Sure. Because now this is where it gets spicy. A man who is being told by friends that, you know what? Your wife cannot do that to you. You're the man of the house. You're the man. Be the man. And the problem with this kind of scenario is it gets violent. You get home because your friends, you know, they poke you and they poke your ego. It will be the man. You know, if she does something, slap her. It becomes violent to the point of death and you end up killing yourself. Now, how do you see the information from those external factors? Those friends who misadvise you to the point that you end up making a mistake. And you do something that you might regret. Yeah. Unfortunately, that's not the definition of a friend because a friend cares. A friend cares about your family. A friend cares about everything. So a friend will know, a true friend will not mislead you to go and terrorize your family or your children. Then that's not a friend. You need a real friend. You need friends. Those drinking buddies, you know? Yeah, those may not be friends. Those are drinking buddies. And I think that's why going back to setting healthy boundaries, knowing who is in your inner circle. Okay, fine. Maybe even if they are drinking buddies, what kind of conversations do you have? How are they serving you? They're so called friends that we say we have. Are they serving me? Do they have the best interest? Not just for me, but even for my family. I love this conversation. I love it. You mentioned you seeking help from a spiritual father and a spiritual leader or some friends. Yeah. Or professional. Or professional. Yeah. Let's talk about that. You've mentioned the professional. Yes, I think that could be a solution to my answer. But still, I want you to tell me whether it is. We have people who don't have friends. The introverts. Those who always stay alone, you know, and they don't go to church. So they don't have anyone like a spiritual leader. Yeah. Who do they go to now? Yeah. I'm an introvert. You are? I am. I'm an introvert and I love being in my space. So am I. I'm also an introvert. Okay, good. But then you and I are talking. So introverts do have conversations and meaningful conversations. But then I also have to make sure that I'm more intentional and deliberate. Because I know I'm human and I need to socialize. So I have to step out of my introvert's introvert box. In other words, every introvert has somebody who they can't talk to. Yeah. And it is possible for you to have that conversation. Yeah, we need to be intentional about this. Yeah. And who are the people that introverts need to look out for? Because now you don't have a friend and you're trying to select who amongst them. Yeah. Because of trust issues. You need to trust somebody. Yeah. And if somebody has those trust issues because people do have trust issues, of course trust issues, some of them come through either because of your own life experiences. Yes. Exactly. You've been rejected. Yeah. You know, you've gone through tough times in life until neglect in life. So now you have developed these trust issues. That is an issue that you need to, somebody needs to address. You got to trust someone. So if you don't have a friend and you know you need help, then absolutely find a professional. Because in that setting, you know, it's safe. Hopefully it's guaranteed depending on the discipline of the professional, how disciplined they are. Because anything we share in our counseling sessions, it should be confidential. Exactly. Exactly. And even with the spiritual leaders, it should be confidential. It should be confidential. Yeah. Absolutely. Now, earlier on, I remember you said that when a man is handling these things, the first thing they need to do is to control. You mentioned that you need to control your emotions trying to bring a balance. Yeah. And now I am wondering, there are many who are having that particular problem trying to control themselves. Not just men, even women. Everybody cuts across trying to control their emotions because once they have broken down, they have broken down. Yeah. How do you learn to control? Is it possible to control in the first place? Yeah. I think it is, I would say being in charge of your emotions. Yes. How can you be in charge? It's being more intentional. It's stopping yourself before, you know, sometimes you are too impulsive. You just jump into something, you haven't thought about it, you haven't thought through it, and you're just impulsive. That impulsivity will then cause us to get in trouble. But if we can stop ourselves and think through something, you know, before I say anything, then I need to hold on. Yeah. How will that thought, how will that statement, or if I go somewhere with my drinking buddies, how will that serve my family and my own emotional well-being? Now, let's talk about the women. We've talked about the kids and men. I want us to talk about the women. Yes. And this is where it gets tricky at some point because it is a woman who is meant or expected to balance between work and home and business and kids and family and husband. You want to juggle all these things at the same time. Women can sometimes have these tendencies where they give up. A woman can say, you know what? I just want to commit suicide. This life, it's too hard for me to bear. You have a child, the father has left you. You're saying, I will kill this child and kill myself. I don't know what to do. Talk to the women. Yeah. How can they manage this? Yeah, I have to celebrate the women because I think women, we are strong. You know, some of us are just tough cookies. They are multi-tasking. They are balancing work-life balance. Women are strong. But women, they're human too. So they need support. Women need the men to come in and support them and encourage them and provide. This idea of a woman running the whole business at home, the kids, the cleaning, who's cooking. Superwoman. There's nothing like a super, that I know of, of a superwoman. We're human. But women have that tenacity that, you know, we are strong and we are ready to give up everything so we can serve others. But we also need to recuperate. We need to be re-energized in that space. So even our own emotional well-being as women is important. It is very important. It's very important. Every woman needs a support system. And that pressure? The pressure is too much. Too much. Yeah. And you don't know how to do it. And you wake up the next morning. You're tired of the routine. The routine. The routine, sometimes it's boring. But how can we help the women, you know, break the monotony of doing one thing over and over again? We don't want them to wear out. You know, a nation without strong women, it's not a nation. In the case of somebody who has committed, who has tried. Attempted. Attempted. Correct term. Attempted. Attempted. Suicide. Yes. How should you handle such kind of a case for somebody who has attempted it before? Yeah. Approach is so important. We need to be sensed. First of all, we must be direct. So let somebody report thoughts of suicide. Okay. We need to be very direct with that person. Are you having the thoughts if they say, yes, we cannot leave them alone. We need to make sure that they are safe. Because now it turns out it's not just about their own safety, but the safety of others. Wow. Because anything can go south very quickly. We also want to make sure that they have the support that they need. There's no need to humiliate, to abuse, to threaten the person. It's a mental health disorder. It's a condition. We don't abuse and humiliate those who come to us and say they have a cancer diagnosis or diabetes. We take care of them. We support them. We need to bring the same energy and the same thought into when we are taking care of someone who is expressing suicidal thoughts or homicidal thoughts or mental health conditions. So making sure that that person is safe, asking them directly whether or not they have thoughts of harming themselves. How long have they heard those thoughts? What are the weapons if they have any weapons, or rather the means of wanting to harm themselves? So there are questions that must be asked and we must be clear. We cannot give conflicting messages. We need to be very clear. And please be kind to these people. Be intentional. Be intentional. Yeah. I love that. I've been told times not on our side. Thank you. It's great. I have lots of things that I want to ask, but as we bring this conversation to a close, I would like to give you time to just have a final word, parting short for the day when it comes to suicide and mental well-being. And of course, I would like you to talk to the people who are watching today, and of course that is your camera. Yeah. I think what I would like to say to all of us is that death by suicide is not a solution. There is hope. You know, we've gone through so much, especially the last two years. That doesn't mean we give up hope. That doesn't mean there is no one who cares. There are people that care. There are friends that care. There are family members that care. And so for those who are in leadership, the professionals in the field, we all need to come together and continue with this conversation. We just cannot stop talking about mental health. It's a public health issue, and this is the time. But to everybody, there is hope, honestly. There is hope. There is hope. That's our message of there is hope. There is hope. How can somebody get a hold of you? Is it possible? It is possible. They can go to evangelinwangeshi.com. That is my website. On my website, there is our phone contact. There's a Facebook page, which is evangelinwangeshi, and I look forward to reading all your comments and questions and everything. We're going to have fun together. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. I will keep doing what you're doing. I love your energy. There is hope. There is hope. That was us with the end of this particular conversation right here on matters concerning suicide and mental well-being. Have you learned something? I definitely have. My name is Ram Aguko. It has been a pleasure being with you with taking a short break, but we still have more coming up your way. Keep it wide in the morning.