 Well, hello everybody and there's a couple people I don't know yet and plus probably some other folks who may be watching on recording. So I'll introduce myself. I'm Mel Hauser. I use she they pronouns and I'm executive director here at Aubreens Belong, Vermont, and welcome to Brain Club where I will be discussing urgency culture in the workplace. Let me share screen before we before we do that though, introduce our community agreement for brain club. So, as many of you have figured out already all forms of participation are okay here you can have your video off whenever you want it off. On we don't expect anything of you, you know, you certainly don't need to make eye contact with the camera, you know, please just do what needs doing walk move stem fidget eat leave come back and everyone is welcome here of of all ages, and you are welcome to communicate however you are most comfortable, you can unmute and use mouth words you can type in the chat box you can do you know, and really any any any way that you can communicate is is comfortable here. So, a word about language. By the way, I have, I have the kind of brain that as the hours go by it is harder and harder for me to get my words out of my mouth so I, I'll just I'll just name that so a word about language, you'll hear myself and maybe I don't know. I don't know. I'm using identity first language when discussing aspects of their identity. For example, I say that I am autistic. Only because it is part of my identity, and other people might use other formats to describe different things so you are welcome to use the language that that that that you most identify with. With identity, we affirm all aspects of identity here, and we respect and protect one another's access needs. And so, one of the things we like to say upfront is that today is for educational purposes only it's not for medical advice, and although we will be discussing some themes of some hard topics. And we just say that we really want to make sure that for purposes of processing trauma that that's taking place in a therapeutic setting, because we are, we are, we are not able to provide the adequate processing here at brain clubs so we just individual traumatic experiences are best processed in therapeutic settings. In the month, some of our brain club regulars had had had some pretty wonderful discussion around how to actually bring an anti urgency culture, even to bring club. And so to create space and processing time for a broad range of communication related access needs. And so, to just enhance the quality of sharing and really moving beyond taking turns talking. And so, periodically, we may pause and give some time for processing and kind of create some empty space. So that people who have the kind of brains that get it, you know jumping in and finding their way into conversation that's ping ponging around quickly is not accessible, we want to create space for everybody. Next bit of access close captioning is enabled, you just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it and depending on your version of zoom, it might be the live transcript CC, or the more dot dot dot and you're choosing show subtitles. So urgency culture. Sorry, too many windows popping up there we go. So, here for some of you who've been part of the last couple of weeks talking about this topic. I did some excerpts from my new favorite book, parenting for social justice written by a group of Vermont authors. They shared set of norms, values, ways of life assumptions about how the world works. And while some are obvious, some are not obvious, and that many aspects of culture are determined based on the normative power structures. And when we think about urgency culture, this idea of the like important needs to be done right now like not everything is in that upper left quadrant of the do now must be done right now do all the things right now. And yet, they're the messages sent a lot of times that everything is urgent, when it is in fact not. And those that that that chronic set of exaggerated urgency is is is really stressful, and we know that stress can be toxic toxic and harmful for health. That's why we began this conversation. And so again, as I said, urgent matters things requiring immediate attention, things popping up demanding your attention, you know but but while urgent tasks are unavoidable, spending too much in that state is is is not healthy. So, the two weeks ago, we talked about this in in terms of like home culture. And then last week we had a community panel talking about their experiences of urgency culture and everyday life, and some of the messaging that that that that that has led to that that we talked about with. And when we think about, and we often use this term of niche construction which is Thomas Armstrong's term to describe building a life that works for your brain. Part of niche construction is thinking about how are we in establishing neuro inclusive norms. And this was our community advisory board sovereigns belong has a community advisory board that informs all of our programs. And so our in the spring. Our advisory board spoke about access and exploring access needs talking about access needs negotiating access needs communicating your access needs. So what is an access need anything required to meaningfully and fully participate in one's environment or community and everyone has access needs, you know, people with all types of brains. And when we think about whether this is in the physical environment, technology, and in this, the emotional communication social spheres. We see where there's a lot of subtlety that goes into this for an individual having their access needs met. And we think about how this how this plays out in the workplace. There are a lot of people who don't have their access needs met at work. And what we don't want, we don't want the square pig peg being hammered to fit into the round hole because what happens you break the peg. So we think about neuro inclusive employment. And by the way, all brains belong has a neuro inclusive employment bright spotting program wherever monitors can nominate their employers who are creating environments where people with all types of brains can thrive. So there's there are some threads who've been running this program for a little over a year now. And the threads that have come up are, and they match what's in the literature. Things about the physical environment, communication styles and supervision style workplace culture, meaningful work flexibility and choices, autonomy individualization and like zooming out and looking at the workflows and routines and kind of stomping out the defaults every time you have a default, everyone else's brain who does the thing differently is other. But today we're going to be focusing on workplace culture, and will be joined by an asynchronous panel of community members including someone from one of our winter 2023 neuro inclusive employment bright spots. In fact, we're going to connect these concepts of of culture to a zoomed out bigger picture, because part of creating just equitable workplaces is in looking at the frameworks right and that we're avoiding. We are we like actively naming and working to work against bias, but we're also avoiding supporting systems that perpetuate unjust systems. And when viewed through a social justice framework, we want workplaces we want societies communities where all people have their needs met, have autonomy and decision making power are safe, are treated with dignity and respect and are able to develop their full And when we think about urgency culture, urgency culture is rooted in so many power systems that are not just. And when we think about, back to that second, when we think about capitalism, where people's, you know, and the messages where people's value is is based on what they produce. Not who they are. And when we think about, you know, all you know, like, you know, all the isms racism colonialism classism ableism, all of it. When it was first brought to my attention that urgency culture can be viewed through the lens of perpetuating oppression. What's that saw that gosh that made it a lot easier to want to distance from it. And so one of the things that has come up in in in bring the bring flip conversations around this over the over the past couple of weeks, was that like, Oh, wow, I never thought of it that way. Oh, wow. Now I'm thinking about it that way anyway so. Maybe just last month. I attended the Vermont. Businesses for social responsibility. Quarterly justice equity diversity and inclusion circle and several the urgency culture topic came up. And we talked about this in the context of of neuro inclusive employment. And what came out of that was a several people who wanted to wanted to come and talk about this and bring up and so very, very excited to introduce today is asynchronous panelists who were kind enough to to to share their time with us we did some prerecorded interviews and edit them and put them all together and we'll play that video in a second. And now we have a very popular is a project associate at on core renewable energy systems. Kelly Putnam is the director of people and purpose for Lawson's finest liquids who is the Lawson's is one of our winter 2023 neuro inclusive employment bright spots. And now people for who is a disability advocate and a member of our new advisor board here at offerings belong. And so with that, Lizzie would you be able to share screen and play our video and this video will run about 20 minutes and I'll be facilitating the chat as we're watching so we can keep the conversation going and then we'll have plenty of time for discussion afterwards. And so in terms of urgency culture, a, you know, focus on productivity and efficiency and, you know, like that stuff of dismantling power system. Yeah, so what do you know that. I was reading the resource that listed 10 characteristics of white supremacy culture. And when they got to urgency culture characteristic. It was saying, and this is an ironic characteristic because the urgency of capitalism is is really makes one lose sight of the urgency of like these justice. Yes, right that's. Yes, you have to pick. You pick non oppressive power system. Right, right. And what kind of blows my mind is that. So how do you be urgent in the non oppressive power system, like, yeah, and how do you urgently fight for, you know, justice and all the senses because they're all connected when working, you know, 24 hours a day. Isn't that's not the way yet you can't to to do to do the work, you have to take the breaks and you have to go for the walk and look at a tree, and enjoy the world around you, and then sit down and have a hard talk with your neighbor or read a book or whatever it is, they're show about the, there's so many ways to do to work for good. And so it's how to, and then this is the part that we talked about the other week and that you brought up is like how do you do that in a work setting where you. So, like my company in solar like we are making renewable energy projects, and that's so important for fighting climate change and bring clean energy to communities. But then, and, and how to do that in a really holistic way, and we're trying, but it's still ever, you still have to always be thinking about. Like, the day to day, the, what does it. And I liked what you were saying about the people you want to make sure your people are okay. This has been a lot like it's been, I've gone down the rabbit hole. It's so interesting, I just find myself sometimes feeling like, I should be doing more I should be doing more. But, but I've kind of checked off some like the things of my to do list. So maybe it's time to go for a walk. So, so that message of I should be doing more. Yeah, you being controlled by an old narrative, a narrative that is bigger than you. It's these assumptions that many of us have grown up with about you should be doing the thing at all times what you need to be productive because that because your value comes from how productive you are that's the message that so many of us were up with. So many and even when I tried to really kind of, I, they I noticed bringing that lens of like being productive into the way I then try and rust or. Yeah, I personally, if someone says something like you know I'm concerned you're doing all the things, you know, or what are you doing for self care. Like, so infuriating. Yeah, of like, like, because often what people mean by that is that like that there is a right way to do self care that's the things from the list. Right, whatever. And like, I don't know, I think like part of my self cares. I mean, I hate that word of the like part of taking care of myself is to like have conversations about things that are meaningful and authentic and like, you know, maybe make some kind of impact to make the world a little better because I just like it's interesting like so I have a six year old and like we talk about power systems all the time and even if we're watching a cartoon I'll be like power over. I think she has that framework about how like power over is bad. And if that all the time. Yeah. And you know you certainly, you know, power over different from like our connection power of influence power of knowledge and expertise like just all the different powers, and power over is not is not healthy for individuals or communities. Right, right. Right. And, and how much right thinking about it, I think about the individual. I maybe in the communities I'm in aren't. I think I think about this a lot as an individual level and how trying to yeah have power over myself. Autonomy power self autonomy. And, you know, you need autonomy. And there are so many people for whom autonomy is an access need if you don't have autonomy. You're not regulated you're then don't have full access to your brain, because it's not safe. Like, and this is, you know, different for different people with different brains but like I have the kind of brain that when I, when I am recognizing power over or an attempt at power over I'm like, Oh, I'm safe. Like I gotta leave this environment. And there's so many workplaces that like people don't have autonomy. Right. Right. To say what they need. And what they know what they need. And they don't know what they need. They don't know what they did not been told they get to have needs. They get to have me because you just got to do this thing because that's what we do. That's what we do here. Because I think that even in a culture like I do feel like my work culture is pretty, pretty good at the flexibility that you need to, like, get your work done but it's so hard on an individual level to really. I think this might be because I'm new to the workforce and and I think this is definitely like link to perfectionism. Which has another characteristic or it's part of the system. Yeah. Right. So how to, how to really kind of follow through. So not maybe this is a brain personal experience to it as well but like not feel bad about it. Yeah, so like I know as a like I, I, I honestly like I've never actually used this term like I identify as a recovered perfectionist. Which is so I don't think like I mean that's kind of a new thing that I think that I might claim that term, because I became a good enough. It's good enough person. Like, like, when I became a parent, after like, it was like life circumstances being like, you know, you have a finite capacity, like I never thought I thought I could just keep doing and doing and doing and like just something had to give. And so anyway, and for me professionally like my progress notes, they're, they're not. They're like their minimum to be, you know, check the box, but they're, they're good enough. And so like, you know, it's really important for me as a parent that my child not struggle with perfectionism in the way that I have struggled with perfectionism most of my life. So like I am actively anti perfectionism training, just like I want from a social justice lens, like the way that we would be anti racism and anti ableism and anti classism and anti ageism and like all of it. I mean, like, I mean, I started thinking about like anti urgency culture and and and anti perfectionism and anti, you know, like all of it. And so I think, I think this is just part of it. You know, as a recovering as a recovering, you know, early in the process of recovering perfectionism. I got to hop to another meeting, but, but you, you know, you come to this culture, you're new and no one has explicitly named for you that this is a good enough culture if in fact it is. So like I find it, you know, in a position of leadership, I find it really important that I name for my staff. This is a good enough place. This is a good enough culture. We are looking to be actively anti perfectionism here. And I have it's my job and name that otherwise people just do the thing and they assume that where it's been elsewhere is the same here and it's not. I wonder how just like the theme of balancing between productivity, efficiency and individualization like how does that, how does the plan to your brain. Yeah, I think it's such an important topic because business sort of setting is designed to meet deadlines and always be working whether you're sitting at your desk or you're not. You're so much responsiveness expected and you know the email notifications popping up folks calling outside of you know your your general work hours is huge. So I think one thing that that I've gotten feedback on from a few employees is that when their managers encourage them to turn off those notifications whether they're on pto or if you know getting them in the evening makes you not be holding by the else then that's a time when if someone really needs to get you, they can find another way to do so. I know I'm someone that can't stop looking at my email notification so I think having that message explicitly communicated and saying that it's okay like yes you're a crucial part of this team and if something comes up and I need your expert opinion in a really timely manner you can probably reach out in a different avenue if that's okay. But I think setting those boundaries and having them be respected and ideally helped if the company can help support them and establish them. Those are huge parts of it and I think just that open dialogue and creating setting where it's not. I'm not scared to tell their manager I don't think I can hit this deadline and here's why here's what I'm struggling with, and then working together to find alternative solutions whether that deadline can be flushed or if it is you know something compliance related that really you have to hit that metric how can you do so as a team how can you work together and just find find other avenues to make it happen. But I think that culture of having that safe space to even just have that conversation can be really hard to come by sometimes, unfortunately. Absolutely so like what some of the things that just came up for me as as as you were describing all of all all of those nuggets of gold is is around transparency of ground rules like one of one of the you know what we would put forth as a best practice on inclusive employment is explicit ground rules, because there are many brains that if you don't name the thing. It is not. It is not known. Yeah, so if you even if you in your heart of hearts, truly believe that anything goes in a meeting that you can have your video on or off if you don't name that it doesn't count. So, so I really I think that as one of the things applied to urgency culture here is that, you know, from from the top down, one practical thing to be done is to name the thing, we are not expecting you to be on all the time. And I think, especially because there's I mean there's so much like emotional trauma from working in toxic work environments that I think there's almost the assumption that it's that way everywhere and so if you want to intentionally have it be different at your place of employment. You know you name that. Yeah, totally and I think to the power dynamic can come into play as well if you're getting a directive from someone who's either your supervisor or maybe two levels up. It's really hard situations to be put in and feel comfortable standing your ground or honoring your boundaries and expectations. So I think, anytime that that could be set from above and modeled even more importantly is really the ideal scenario because it is it's tough. Yes, it is. And if you think about, you know, like urgency culture in, many might say is rooted in capitalism is rooted in like oppressive power structures and part of the demand of being, you know, you know, it is being on all the time is a power over dynamic. And if it's, if there is an imbalance in power dynamic, I think the responsibility falls to the person who has more social capital is in a place of super, you know, supervisors, but it's your responsibility to name. Of like, I am not expecting this of you it is normal to in fact leave work, whether it you know even leave work even if you are working remotely leave work and be done and I'm not going to intrude upon this time. I think, I think having structures built in so there are ways to safely call out those sort of in Congress moments would be essential. So in practice we found really effective here is just to conduct stay interviews. So you may have heard of exit interviews and you're chatting with an employee and they're on the way out. And it's there's pros right they're usually more candid when they're on the way out they don't have anything to lose and it can be really valuable feedback but in the interview the goal is like okay how can we actually get kind of feedback created a safe enough environment that people feel like their job won't be at risk in any way if they're sharing what they really feel and and that gives you a chance as an employer to proactively increase job satisfaction and do something for retention prior to getting a two weeks notice and maybe you try and keep them but if you can do it. Before I get to that point it's so much better for everybody. Absolutely when you think about I mean if we are going to use the, you know, unhealthy yet ever present, you know, productivity efficiency based mindset. It is it is a loss of productivity to keep having people quit their jobs and having to hire an onboard new people like it's it's win win for people to be self actualized in their jobs. And you zoom out and you think about all the systems of oppression. And that like the, the, the idea that the pressure to do the thing all the time is there is because like people get the message that value comes from what you do and what you produce and I think that's gross what do you think it is it's you know it's about. Like you said it right you hit the nail on the head. It's about you know, who had who can afford it and who does not who cannot afford it. And you know with, you know, racial and discrimination that you know that we see across Vermont and in our schools and just a lot of life you know in Vermont and just like it seems to be like you know, we're being divided against people of color, people of color of how do you know, interact with each other but the way I look at it as you know, if I can be more, more over and power and power and over the other an individual that that makes you feel good, but in reality, all you're doing is hurting communities. And yes, it is very, very gross because it's you know it was founded on before you know how Christopher Columbus you know it was all found on how it got started. Right, violence, power over oppression and that's that's that's the narrative that has persisted. It has it persisted so long but people are you know, like you said there's somewhat oblivious to that, or try not to understand as much or they want to try not to understand it or they try to ignore that you know, side of culture. And dismiss it because it's just how our culture you know is. Yeah, I can't tell you know, this is nothing we can do. The way I look at it is this is nothing we can do like, look, look at switch you know and is set and done it takes it takes progress it takes time. But ignoring it is just making it worse ignore being oblivious about it just makes it worse because you know that that's wrong. You're trying your best to stay out of it but you can't stay out of it because it and it also brings in white culture to as well. How does that, how does that become intimate to as well. How does that intertwine with what we see to as well. Right, right. And I think that you know you've hit the nail on the head hurts everyone it hurts individuals at the margins and it hurts whole societies. It's, it's, it, and you know, part of being oblivious, you know, is is is privilege. And part of it is like, I mean, but really, if you zoom out, you say there's there's nothing controversial here, this is wrong, this is wrong, you have we have to have these conversations. It's the only way we're going to help you help ourselves, but also help the society that we have to make meaningful changes. Yeah, basically, discuss about and how that conversations sit down and have those mean what we can't ignore it, we can't sit there and you know, conversations, because you know, yes, it's in our culture. Do I be that voice? Do I why we have waste? Do I think I have the courage to be that voice for others to say that keep our culture Asian, the racism of what are in 1900s 1900s. And we should move past there's no long place here, literally, not a society and definitely not in Vermont. You know, I really, I, I, when I do my editing, I'm going to really make sure that we've been so so last couple weeks at brain club we've been talking about oppression. And I, so the setting has been really set to get people thinking about the aspects of day to day culture that are actually rooted in racism and capitalism and ableism and classism and all of the isms. And there's no place for that here. And so we got to be talking about this. So I think that, you know, we're, we're trying to get people to zoom out and say, you know, what am I doing that is actually perpetuating power over. Even if it's not, you know, they wouldn't identify it as racism, but it is because power over is is is it's all the same. And it goes back to correct that it's going against you. It's already discrimination. The things that I'm hoping that people take away from this conversation is that I think to connect urgency culture in the day to day with a social justice framework, because once you see it, you cannot unsee it. Hey, Lizzie can end share screen. So yeah, um, that sharing. Yeah, you're good. You're good. So, I just want to, I want to pause and really, especially Matthews comments at the end. I can really, really sit with that if we're saying that messages of power over are hurtful to individuals and communities. I'm just saying that there are routines and practices that are normative, and that the prioritization of productivity and efficiency is rooted in the rooted in the messages that are harmful. And there's no place for that in workplaces. So I wonder what you all think about that. I'm staying off camera. Um, so it's just going to say that, you know, I work at UVM at the library and our culture is not terrible. You know, I don't have an oppressive boss, but I'm oppressed by, as I was mentioning earlier by emails and, and just, I'm just inundated by junk information that I don't need in my brain. But what occurred to me just now is if we could change the culture of supervising from supervising people to supervising the work. So our bosses, so to speak, are not in charge of us. They're in charge of making sure that the work gets done. So there's probably a better approach to supervising going forward if your, your approach is, okay, what do we need to do to get this project done as opposed to why isn't so and so here to do their job. So, yeah, supervising things, not people. I love that Shana. I think that is so important. And John and Jessica are agreeing. Love that Shana is supervising the work not the people that requires a culture of trust they say. Because bosses should be in charge of advocating for their employees to have their access needs met. Right. So the people have their access needs met, and the work. First off, the work comes secondary to the priority of the people having their access needs met. And guess what more works actually going to get done. Just on the way home to noon. There was a quick NPR interview that I just caught the very last bit of and the gentleman was saying how certain European countries are looking at a four day week. Because they're learning that less is more people are more productive when they're not made to just come in to work for the sake of punching the clock or for the sake of the work week or whatever. So there's so much needs to get changed so it like I said earlier it's going to take several generations for all of this to sink in. Yes. Absolutely. I wonder how foul this, you know, this is landing for other people. And feel free to use the chat or unmute. Hey this is Jessica and john's here. Hello. Hi. I loved CR what you just said in the chat about bosses being in charge of advocating for their employees to have their access needs met I see that as a part of some of it's about bandwidth some of it's about prioritization, but the access needs thing is huge. Recently, I work at a bigger company and I recently took a manager, I'm not a manager but I took a manager training called disability fundamentals for managers. And a lot of it was basic, you know disability one on one which check already got, but also a lot of it was like literally like, how do you deal with an employee disclosing and what's the proper way to do that was very good training actually I was a little surprised it was third party through disability colon in, which you may be familiar with as an advocacy organization. Anyway, so that was a wonderful resource but you know I work in a larger company that has someone to make sure that module exists and that training exists and I wondered if folks in your own worker life experiences have had opportunities for bosses or to be trained in basics like that because I think most managers may not know how to handle accommodation beyond just being a compassionate person. Right. And we, I don't remember when it was, Lizzie or Sarah maybe you can help me out we had, we had an attorney come and present at brain club. Maybe September or October about about that concept anyway we'll find we'll find the recording and we'll put it in the chat I'll look for it in a second if someone else can't find it. The other thing I'll mention is like when so all brains belong does neuro inclusive employment trainings. And in addition to you know if people have a particular you know if employers have a particular situation that we're problem solving around. You know we do that too, but where we're starting for most of the people that bring us in for trainings is that of if you create a neuro inclusive workplace. Your employees don't need to disclose disability, because you have created an environment where your routines and practices are are are inclusive of people with all types of brains and remembering that there's so many people with invisible disabilities who don't actually know that they have disabilities. They just know that they're struggling maybe. And so, you know, and yeah like Sarah saying, thanks, Sarah. Sarah is using the term universal design that's exactly right if you offer things in multiple different ways, multiple flexible ways of doing the thing and you get people freedom and choice to pick the one that works for best for their brain. You're going to be more inclusive you're not waiting for people because you know it in a world where you're one, you know contingent on the fact that someone one knows they have a disability, and to know is what their reasonable reason is. You know you're oh thank you Sarah thanks so much for finding the recording is a recording in the chat about the brain club I mentioned with the attorney from the, from remote legal aid. Okay, CV saying I really love the pause we have been practicing here to reflect on the messages. It really allows for the reflection of reflexes of urgency to hurry and respond. Absolutely. And it's, it's some, yeah. We in, you know, in, once we have this lens. It just takes practice I think it's you know I think that I can only speak for my own self that I have a lot of like habits around around urgency. And now that I've made this like connection with my cortex with my like, you know the part of the brain doing like, you know the hard work of spotting that pattern deciding I want to like rewrite these neural pathways. So it's going to take a lot of practice and we, and we try to practice it. You know I can only speak for for us at our, at our team at all brains belong, but it's little things like, you know I might, I might say to Sarah Sarah can I can I can I tell can I tell the story about about your about about your practicing around around email and being less responsive. So, and, and, and, commonly, commonly, I'm observing that people right back to me too quickly. And I'll say, do you leave your email open. Well yeah, that's, that's why would I not leave the email open like, is that comfortable. As comfortable as that and like, you know, I'm actually not going to put you on the spot here I'm going to like speak on the on the general because this is like, I mean I think I've had this conversation like three times this week the same exact conversation around like well that's just what I've always done. That's like everywhere I've worked is like that way you keep your email open because that's what we do. It's like, did you know that you don't leave your email, you don't want, you're welcome to leave your email but you can actually just like intentionally check it when you want to be available. Or like the other day was it yesterday I don't know some other day. Sierra and I we try we decided we were trying to experiment to take an email off our phones to just like be less available and have to be intentional about like sitting down at a computer to like you know receive the bolus of email. I don't know I've never done before. I mean, there was a time in which there was life that happened before like we even had this technology, but I don't know it's like it feels like, like, it feels big, but I feel like it's really important to try to practice. Just, just practice having something different. And say CV would agree point how can we build pauses into our work meetings, allowing silence, or allowing reflection on a question, allowing breaks and long meetings, being transparent about deadlines being transparent about everything, including. So today I was in a meeting with one of my team members, and I said something, and people just nodded. And then like five seconds later I changed my mind I was like, oh that thing I said before. That's a terrible idea. And then somebody somebody else was like yeah that is a terrible deal like, did you pressure to agree with me. I feel like that I'm surprised by that I want to unpack that and then we like spent time in a meeting about that, because I feel like it's, it's, it's healthy to be able to voice to voice whatever you are not necessarily voice it's it's help to be able to express your ideas. And I, I, the, the other, the other thing is so something else that Kelly Putnam, our panelists spoke about that didn't make it into this clipping will use it in a different brain club is actually Tegan also talked about this about modeling. So like really, when you have imbalanced power dynamics, it's really important for, you know, the person with, you know whether you're gonna say like more social capital or like in just leadership positions like it's really important to like not put the onus on, someone who is being supervised to like, stick up and say like, no, I need to change right because that's, that's not. That's not okay, Sierra. Yeah, I, I think I've been practicing trying to model this in patient visits but also in like interactions with everybody of like. Do you want to think about this and get back to me tomorrow because that's my favorite phrase to use is let me think about it and I'll get back to you tomorrow and offering that people and being like, oh, I didn't realize that I could not make a decision about which medication to try at this visit or I didn't realize I could wait and reply tomorrow about whether or not we get together this weekend. Don't realize that a lot and it can be really easy to just have that script and put it in everywhere. Yeah, it's just it's modeling. David says I can't imagine most of the organizations I worked for ever embracing most of these ideas because they're far too big and bureaucratic. I wonder what I might have done. If I fully realized what alternatives could have been imagine knowing and respecting one's access needs. Yeah, yeah, absolutely and again, it's all about the delivery like we talk about things more directly I think at brain club than we do like if I'm doing an employment training like I'm not typically this direct it's like very oblique in terms of like, if we're really thinking about how we have this epidemic of employers that can't fill positions and can't keep people in positions. And we're saying that one in five people have brains that learn thinking communicate differently than the so called typical brain even though that's not really a thing. Like, there's a lot of people whose access needs are, you know, far more likely to be unmet. And like, I don't know seems like the way you're doing it's not really working society. Like that's that's the angle on typically taking of like, oh, that's interesting. Or if it anyway that's just any number of other ways of going at this other than like the thing you've always done. It's wrong. Sarah says, especially when there's an imbalance of power, it feels like an answer must be produced on the spot versus taking time to think about something. Right. And that's, that's not irrational. It's like, based on lived experience like in most elements there is pressure to do the thing and there is judgment associated with not doing the thing. And there's like, you know, habitual responses to, you know, to question asking, because if I don't answer the question, you know, some, some, you know, bad performance review or whatever. And that's that's what we talked about two weeks ago at great club is around the internalized ableism that that and how urgency culture connects to internalized ableism. And Lizzie can you find the recording for that to put in the chat from, from February 7 if you can find it otherwise. It's fine. Cool. So, and you know, speaking of internalized ableism I'm also going to connect this to shame to the big picture of shame like there's so much there's so many negative experiences, not just negative but like profoundly painful experiences that so like, you know, if we're thinking, you know, the workplace or otherwise, just so many like memories that live, you know, the trauma that lives in the body. And that often like, you know, these like micro, you know, perpetuations of urgency culture often come in a response to the shame that was felt when when practicing an alternative. I'll cut I say this to introduce the topic for next week's brain club so it's our first brain club book chat you do not need to have read the book. But we're going to be talking about the themes from the book, I thought it was just me but it isn't by Bernie Brown talking about shame, and the, you know, identifying the experience of shame, and connecting it with the, you know, the bigger system the bigger picture of the, you know, the framework the socio cultural framework that drives some of these things and those messages that get, you know, just, you know, laid down like these neural pathways that get laid down as young children about, you know, about what's, what's normal. For those local to Montpelier, there's a few copies of that book that our friends at Kellogg Hubbard library were kind enough to put on reserve for us. And, and, and at bear pond books they have a couple of copies in stock that they ordered for us here in Montpelier. And again, if you haven't read the book please come anyway. So with that, thank you all so much for coming. And we'll see you we hope to see you next week. Bye everybody.