 I extend a special thank you to Not Bound which is the charity here in Australia with whom I am co-producing these chats down under. And I extend a special thank you to the Yorkshire Hotel in Melbourne for hosting us here for the chats. So without further ado, Johnny Tindall, okay I'm gonna spit this out one way or the other. Tell us a little bit about your your early life. I understand your early years were relatively tumultuous. They were. At a relatively early age my mother and my father split up. So life continued in two homes on the east coast of Australia, one in Sydney, one in Ballina where I was born. And caught orders. I would spend time with my father and his family and eventually my very first step monster that I still love. And that would be holidays. And then I'd do my schooling in Sydney and I'd spend that time with my mother and my stepfather who basically raised me and his dad. You say that his second wife your stepmother was your step monster. Why do you say that? You know she's resting now. She's gone. But she was the only step parent at least on that side and there have been a couple that really worked at getting to know me. She even tried bribing me and I was not having any of it. She gained between me and dad so she was the enemy at least at the beginning. But with time and with a lot of love and care you know she was also my second mother. But she was my first step monster. She was the enemy. Okay but yet you have affection for her so. I do. She had a baby who became my little sister Renee and I was putting she was putting my arms and I guess that was the moment where I was like okay okay well I've now got a little sister. I've got to take care of her. I've got a yeah. So monster became affection and she was mom and as Renee got older instead of me calling her Cheryl because well it would confuse Renee. I'd call her mom while I was away with permission from my mother so that she didn't feel like I was betraying my mother. So yeah it was hard. There was always two sets of values. There were always two sets of rules. There was two sets of curfews. Sometimes there were even two schools because things happen in families and I'd go and spend more time there because my father was going through something or shows me my stepdad to define it going through something and my mother would say okay it's best to go over there for a little while. I didn't always enjoy going home to dad but I always loved my little sister and I eventually loved my stepmother and when she passed away my sister called me and said John mom's gone. My first expression was holy crap I can't deal with this we need to call the adults and a conference called to my mother and I'm like mom Cheryl's gone mom's gone I don't know what to do I don't know what to do for Renee. My mother said you just go go go to her and so I helped Renee go through all of that trouble the cremation the burial the the arrangements it was hard you know because I was saying goodbye to somebody that she loves so very much and that you know wasn't actually a bad old girl in the in the in the scheme of things if I was to give you an iconic person who she was like she was like Magna Savinsky and that character that she plays in Catherine Kim she was just like her you know winning medals for netball and you know always going to hockey and becoming you know estate champion so she was a spawning big girl with a big girl personality and for some reason she loved me you were raised Jehovah's Witness I was for the benefit of the audience would you explain that a little bit yeah tell people what really that's all about look at Jehovah's Witnesses is is from a very strict other Christianity okay so they're not Catholic they do believe in the Bible they believe it's God's testament to man and our scripture to learn from we don't take blood transfusions we don't get into local politics as in you know who's going to be elected as the Prime Minister we don't celebrate birthdays and we don't celebrate Christmas because they're basically pagan ceremonies that have been adopted by Christianity for people to come together however in places where those things are celebrated we're expected to at least be respectful and enjoy the family moment a good old expression is when in Rome do as the Romans so it's hard because you've got a very strict upbringing here and you go to dad and dad's was well you want to go out yeah be back by 2 a.m. at home while I was going through my high school it was you better be back by the lights go out and if you're not back you better call me and tell me where you are and give me a number to call them and so that I can call their parents and there must be an adult there and there were a lot of rules a lot of rules so it was always hard to work out what the boundary should be where I should be where I should be in my head always hard learning to versions of the history of the world Darwinism and creation and sometimes we'd be asked questions about those things in school but they never qualify which version that they wanted so you know confusing yes Michael was raised innocent and I'm grateful for that and I became myself from yeah well what does the Jehovah's Witness belief teach as far as academics if what you're saying there are two versions of history they believe in creationism the world was created in 6,000 years and then of course we've got to add the time of pre Christ and the time off so the world is is not 60 million years old like you know we're taught by fossil dating it's the other and you know they have very very strict beliefs on Bible study I mean actually my Bible study came before my homework did we went to church five times a week for which there was at least three hours of study before that so that we either understood we could participate we were included they teach public speaking from a very very early age and it was about five or six I gave my very first sermon in the smaller chapel or hall and right up until the point that I was disfellowshipped I was having Bible studies with younger younger people the younger people would tell me I would make the stories come to life you know dad would give me a comic book and that'd be Superman and mum would give me my Bible stories and there would be Jesus Christ and the 12 apostles on the predate so they were my my heroes to start with they were heavily indoctrinated but at the same time through choice but you said you had difficulties in school because you didn't know which version of history to put on a test for example exactly and look Australia's come a long way to the standardization of tests got to say that and they come a long way in qualifying the question but at that time no they didn't qualify the question and there have been times where I completely failed history because I used the wrong version it wasn't qualified however they would mark me on what I wrote down and they would eventually turn around and say look why let's work on this and I'd say well okay creationism is what I was taught at home you taught me differently and I'm willing to accept that but you need to qualify what it is that you're asking which religious studies happen by elective by parents in a lot of state schools so you know I go to school and once a week we'd all meet the young Jehovah's Witnesses in a room just like band or choir or you know and we would have a religious study there at school so it was an elective it was accepted that this happened and all the religions had their little places that's fascinating fascinating that that would be incorporated into the academia yeah I mean again Australia has come a long way in in being able to coexist next to many many different types of people I remember in Sydney being when the first Asian boy came to the school his name was Daniel I'd never seen anybody with eyes like that and he was a Jehovah's Witness and he was terrified and we became the best of mates me Daniel and Christian and to this day I'm still in contact with Christian you know so academia and religion although they weren't intertwined they coexisted very happily how did you reconcile those beliefs coming out into being gay it was really really hard I need to just say this to you from the moment that I knew I was different I didn't know what that different was and every day I would be called gay you're gay you're gay and I didn't really know what gay was to be honest with you the word that had been taught to me at home was a homosexual very lab type word not gay and gay was used as a taunt it meant that you were less than equal of course differences lead to research finding out am I gay I know I'm different I can see that I'm different from you guys but am I what you're calling me and when I came to the realization that they could actually sense what I was before I was I even knew what it was then I had to reconcile that and I had to reconcile that against my faith and what the the repercussions were going to be the moment that I turned around and said mom dad I'm gay it's about to come out at school I had to be prepared and I was and I was just ready yeah but how well I had a school counselor who was a lesbian not an out lesbian and she was she was very concerned for me because I would go through some breakdowns no mental health issues as such just complete feedback loops of confusion and one day I went to her and sometimes life wasn't always great at home my father as a and I qualify that as my step dad as much as he was an awesome guy okay when he drank he wasn't so awesome and he could never just drink one it was to excess so he was a recovered alcoholic sometimes he would slip life would be turned upside down for three or four days but my father on the other side was no different actually he was an alcoholic or is an alcoholic don't know if he still is now don't really have any contact with him but you know there were some Christmases that were absolutely terrifying because my father was so drunk that the slightest thing set him off so my my school counselor was concerned she would always know when my grades were dip I'd always be called in and one day I said to her miss I'm really confused but I think I might be gay am I gay help me here and she said well I can't tell you if you are or you're not this is a thing that you have to discover yourself however you know you've been looking for books in the library well they don't exist in our library there because we're not allowed to have them there but she had a lot of publications that were tucked away just for emergency use and I would come to her her counseling space and I'd sit there and I'd read and I'd absorb and eventually I came to the conclusion okay I am gay but I need to find out more so I actively sought out a single-sex relationship or at least a play date a fuck whatever you want to call it and I liked it I liked it and so I thought well maybe that's just a fluke so I did it again and again whilst lying to my parents how were you finding these people it's really not that hard I mean when you live in Malambimbi there's such a large population of alternative people yeah you know it's relatively easy and when you have the outward qualities they would find you okay and of course you know they'd pop up at times and you'd be like huh I didn't know really you look so normal was usually one of my first expressions and of course they'd say well so do you but you told me that the Jehovah's Witness faith resemble the treats rather resemble those of a good leather man tell us about that well yeah I was raised with structure that's the first word I'm gonna say almost military precision structure and those boundaries were very good because they they helped me understand what I needed to be and where I needed to be and how I needed to be and I had that structure while I was with mom and dad at home in Sydney or in Oceanshores depending on where I am in life good Leatherman they adhere to some good structure now we believe in brotherhood or fraternity as the old gods would say in service being present love love of our brother quite often unconditionally because you know Leatherman are there that first sign of trouble they're usually the first ones to open their pockets as well and Jehovah's Witnesses in a very similar way believe in those sort of same things love for each other you know kindness virtuous service lots of service okay being charitable being kind helping those other people who are less fortunate than yourselves we build Kingdom Halls together my father and I 30 32 years ago I was 10 laid the cornerstone in the Paddington Kingdom Hall which is one of the most beautiful spaces that they've ever built and it it has six or seven congregations that use it that Hall basically runs from 6 a.m. to 1 p.m. 1 a.m. every day well with many congregations is a full deaf congregation there I'm sorry a full deaf congregation yes so structure very important study very important it's very important to a Leatherman to find out how this came about yeah at least the ones that you know need to know and I need to know things because that's how I can either rationalize it or make it make it my own and these Leatherman showed me that the reason I wasn't fitting into the shiny boys that were very self-centered it was all about what they were wearing and who they were fucking and what drugs they were taking and it was all about them it was me me me me me nothing more than right and then they found me and it was all about the service to our community and how do we keep our community safe and how do we teach our community you know good sexual habits I came in at the end of the eights amadeving so sexual habits had to be addressed so structure was important and giving back to the sick you know that that first time you meet somebody who's dying of HIV is quite confronting but I would see people who are sick in my religion all the time and we would bring them meals we bring the flowers we would sit by their bed we would study with them we would bring the recordings of the latest so they're very similar in the way that they serve their fellow man and that they love their fellow man I mean so much so that I wear my heart on my sleeve it's in the shape of a diamond because my heart's pretty tough you know and it's very important to me but when you came out your mother took you to a doctor oh yeah tell us about that so part of my year 12 was I gave back to some less fortunate children in the public school they didn't have a computer lab and I was somewhat of a computer prodigy genius and all the others were doing their little assignments but part of mine was to teach the less fortunate kids who were having trouble with their dyslexia and that that there are other ways so I was given a Mac and I thought well maybe they need to go that way so I brought half of our computer lab with a teacher to them and I would sit there once a day for six months and every child that had a disability would come in and we'd see this is a mouse this helps you click around this program is all about numbers and it's visual maybe this is why you're having trouble with this and you could turn those numbers into algebra and all of a sudden they were like oh my god I get this now they're not speaking another language but it came out that I was gay quite alternative and I was coming to terms with it and finally when I come to terms with it it would be well yes maybe I am nearly there nearly there and of course that's big news a young man in school almost proudly coming out well nearly proudly coming out and they run this article about Mr. Fixer having lots of young admirers and then on the very next page there was a story also about me not conjunctive but terrifyingly you know close to it and all they showed were my Doc Martins and of course my mother said at the table honey he's got the same boots as you one day before my last day in my formal I thought well it's about to come out and someone's gonna say something to my mother at least at my graduation it's time to and I plucked up the courage and I walked into there with the coffee and I said mom we got to talk and she went it's too early honey wait till later no mom this is really important I need to talk to you now honey no mommy hasn't had her coffee yet coffee she sat up in bed and I said mom I'm gay she want you think you're gay no I am gay you how do you know that you've never been with yes mom I have and have you been with a woman well I tried it got really messy and I threw up over her yes mom I'm gay and she pulled the pillow in front of her like it was a shield and she said honey get dressed now you're not going to school okay get in the car and so as we drive the 20 minutes to my school and then we drive 40 minutes into the hills where our family doctor is who runs a practice she marches past the secretary she opens the door my mother was somewhat quite dramatic she pulls this person out of this easy chair and says we need him more she throws me into the chair and she says Martin he's broken fix him and she drags his poor unsuspecting person who's there you know do that and she stands guard at the door Martin was horrified first he's like so what have you done mate what have you done have you stolen a car or something I mean your brothers used to do that and went no Martin have you got a girl pregnant no Martin no you burned down the science lab and there was a string of these you know no Martin then what is it Martin gay he went and Martin I'm gay and where Jehovah's Witnesses and this doesn't really and she's freaking out and he's like oh oh never done no and so he goes to his draw and he pulls out two tic tacks he says you'll take those tic tacks and you'll say you're cured and that will give you some breathing space and I went Martin I've been leading a double life I can't do this anymore it's time for me I know what's about to happen I'm terrified I'm really terrified but the sooner it happens the sooner I start building my life again as a Jehovah's Witnesses our friends are Jehovah's Witnesses their parents are Jehovah's Witnesses they believe in sending us to school so that we see the world for the world we don't really homeschool it's important that we see that so existing there is always hard okay and I knew I was about to lose my friends I was about to lose my aunties and my uncles I was about to lose my brothers and my sisters most of all I was going to lose my mother she was my best friend everywhere and my dad and I just hoped that they loved me enough that we could sort of somehow work this out in an amen an amenable way but the brothers were very very strict about this and they said all you have to do is say that you're sorry for the act that you've had with men and I went I can't apologize for something that I'm not sorry for I can't apologize for something that it comes naturally to me and the brothers looked at me and they went well then if you're not sorry for what you did you will be disfellowship on this date they gave me two and a half months to just get it and it then was announced the doors of the church close to me and that's it no family no friends no support totally alone in the world that's how the Jehovah's Witnesses do they did you say to me look you can be gauges and don't act on it I said so you're telling me I'm not allowed to be loved or to love someone that seems very unfair no I don't think I can be part of a religion that teachers love but can't actually love me you were very bullied in school terribly but there's an interesting twist to that tell us about it so I was taught I was never to hit back and certainly never to hit women mm-hmm okay so I took the beatings where I could run the gauntlet I'd run the gauntlet but there was one person and again I say this word lesbian wasn't really in my vocabulary so tomboy will it suffices she wore Doc Martin she was relatively active she knew what I was and on a regular basis she would pin me down and hold my foot and my head in the mud by a boot and she'd say you've just got to be stronger you have no idea what's in the world you've just got to be stronger okay I got a title and a couple of years later somebody else got another title and it the connection was made that we both went to the same high school it's funny what happens on those forms and she comes up to me and at this point she's transitioning into a gay man what is your surname apparently we went to school I went tindall and and she froze and she went she pulled a cigarette out my pack and she put it in my mouth you're gonna need this fuck I need this you drink new don't you it's new that's what you like yeah drink new no idea what was about to fall she went into the bar she comes out with two great big pictures of them and I'm like what the hell's going on honey wear our glasses we have to talk about we do not need glasses she told me her surname her real surname the one that no one knows and I stepped back and all of a sudden I was 14 15 and I was terrified and I braced myself and I thought you know what it takes a big person to admit to this yeah yeah I thought you know what if he can come to me and say I did this to you and I'm sorry then I should be able to listen and I should be able to as a leader in my community take that step and go okay and so I sat on the stool and there were lots of tears and eventually there was a big old cuddle now that person is one of my best friends in the world she's known as Danny fruit pigs and a do bandit or various incarnations of that she won't mind me saying that and she is one of my sounding boards she is one of the people that I get advice for for my trans boy because I have a trans boy in my family and yeah she's also been one of my greatest supporters one of my greatest you know she she shakes the Johnny bucket occasionally she's helped me navigate into personal difficulties and she's also made them see that you know I was brought up differently so I do see the world differently from them it's not wrong it's just different and we move on how were you introduced into the kink scene the kink leather scene well I wrote a motorbike let's start there I worked pretty much in every gay bar on Oxford Street from one end to the other to make ends meet I even prostituted myself at times I had to you know eating kind of necessity was that lucrative as me it was yeah yeah because I was adorable and I had the babs and I had the blonde hair and I had the blue eyes and you know I was truly innocent or at least I could remember what innocence was and yes it was and I worked in a cafe and I was cited for misappropriation of money now all of our tills were monitored by cameras I mean we counted in front of a camera we put our tills in front of a camera only one person touched a tilt and of course one day I'm called up to Sir's big office in T2 as people would know or where the barracks used to be and he's like son what have you done nothing sir well I have a problem in this place I went yes you do okay who's the problem I think you already know that it's not my job to tell you what my boss is doing and he went well this is going to be a hard lesson you need to go fire him it's part of the job and I went excuse me and you know what you need to go on go and fire him I know it's him so fine he'll come to me it just go do it so I did that was one of the first steps and I came back and he went you did a good job I watched that and these monitors and I'm like what is this place oh you went this is where I watch my empire and of course there was this row of monitors and what was on them was utterly filthy I mean fun filthy but ugly I'm watching porn no that's what's going on underneath me how do I not know about this you know you're kind of one of our nice boys we don't really publicize what we do in that place but you're going to work there because you know you look within your leathers and at that same time I was also introduced to a daddy and he was having trouble with his computer and big brothers like look let's get Johnny here he'll fix it he was struggling with Photoshop and I had no idea what it was that I was looking at and eventually I've pushed Daddy Ray aside not gonna let me do this and I'm in about 20 clicks the page was right the layers were right and we were ready to send it to the printers and then I've gone oh holy crap is that what I oh and he's like yeah this is how big you know but you work on the main stage at the hoarding and you're here and you for the maybe you should be involved as well and that Daddy also became a sir and he helped mold my life give it some meaning introduced me to these people that weren't just they're having sex if you understand I mean that they had some structure and that structure was needed in me because it helped me function it's how I was raised so there the life began never really ever stopped I've always found vanilla sex just boring it's like well go away give me something interesting to do and you know 101 workshops teach you about all sorts of things and eventually you're not just the money that's being having it done to because guess what you know you've got a high pain threshold all of a sudden you know you're teaching this teaching sound me teaching fisting teaching them teaching budget master that's one of my favorite courses you know but this also led you to a position within Sydney leather pride it did it did you didn't do you run for the presidency but they felt you were too young kind of yeah I was urged to run for the presidency because I'd done the time near the organization excuse the expression but I knew where all the bodies were buried we're not to dig so to speak and so I went to the election but I wouldn't play the game I'm not going to go out there and say hi I'm Johnny vote for me I figure I'll either get it because I'm the right person or I won't so the first time they elected somebody you'd never been part of the pride ever and that was an interesting year that was difficult at times but I tried to be their friend I tried to help them because I was the special events coordinator so me and the president had to work very closely together over things and I tried to help him with his interviews but they would always go drastically wrong and so you know sometimes we'd come to log a heads and then the next year came along and so I re-stood I was re-nominated I accepted the nomination and that year our current president which is still there Titi Chate or somebody I affectionately call mummy sir somebody who still calls me puppy after 20 odd years and she's like no that's puppy and you know they they call me to the stage and I puppy Johnny Tindall and I'm like my boys are snickering look at him being all submissive to and so yeah she's still there and I love it dearly she beat me by not not even a handful of hoes so yeah I was too young not in my experience that it's generally an older position of somebody around 40 45 50 that holds and at that point I was about 32 33 34 so you know it's maybe the right person one and and I'll say that because you know I worked very closely with her where I can didn't but you were the president at one time were you not I was the president of sister organization that broke away from Sydney leather pride called how the city bears so my partner was the secretary and he said we need a strong leader there's a lot of things that have behind the scenes that need to be fixed we need a strong leader and I said no I said no four times and other people came to me and I said no and then another organization came to me and said look we really want you to transit the presidency to a younger president you've been trained to do this you can do this so I was the president for exactly 11 months which was a full term in that case because there was some things that had to do and we had to move some mighty ground moved some time that we had to have things in place which meant that we needed to fall in line with mighty grow election period so that we were all working at the same time for the same goals and we weren't running late and we weren't submitting artwork late and you know when you live in a city that has so much politically happening and so much so many organizations well we all have to sort of sync up because we all do something at the same time of the year every year which is the parade and party and so I had to bring it all in line I had to make it possible for us to achieve the gold line these guidelines and then to move to future planning so that we were already ahead when the notice came out that you know float registration event registration photography and artwork need to be in by this date and this is the theme and so my job was one arm to fix the structure stabilize the club deal with some really horrible things over past president bring back the love and mend a rift between two organizations which I did so tell us about the Sydney scene today today well I was raised old art okay so I have to use a term conservative conservative when I first came out there was very little co-existent between men women we didn't really even know trans people we stayed separate we came together for fundraisers we came together for the odd dance party we came together for special events and we were a big family and it worked but generally we were quite separatist by sexuality and gender now times are changing sometimes I'm even rushing to catch up because I don't deal with change well quickly there's a there's a planning period for change in me okay and now we have the girls wanting to be with the guys on a more regular basis and for the most that's a great thing however it makes some of them uncomfortable and so we're moving to an inclusive state and that happened because we were no longer allowed to run same-sex events anyway so single-sex events the government said if you want to run single-sex events well it's 40 grand we'd say why and they go because that's what it costs us in the complaints basically 40 grand get you the certificate we'll take the complaints and say they're making the money they're paying us it's good so a couple of places got those licenses saunas fuck hubs and there used to be a lot of those now there's literally three places on Oxford Street two saunas left one sauna in the city the places where we could have gone because they either couldn't support the requirements they couldn't find the funding to remain single-sex but similar the pride 20 years ago seen this change coming and they started to promote it and we bought the girls in and the dykes on bikes sort of joined and the bears broke away because they didn't really want to be told how to dress they're their own you know fetish and and fraternity in themselves and so we've been working towards an inclusive state for 20 years sometimes it's worked really well other times it has gone up in smoke but we keep walking towards it and now we are nearly there we are nearly at where there are more places where we are included than where we're excluded into these gender and sexuality roles and that's a good thing okay you always wear your IML metal right here why do you choose to wear that it's close to my heart it's my most precious item it's been stolen twice yeah and because it reminds me of the greatest experience I ever had of the family that I made externally to New South Wales and Australia and some great things happened there I was summoned to the late Chakran's Lowe's suite and I had missed curfew and he said well I can't show any favor to you because you know it will be seen as you're my mate you're my friend you've known you as puppy for a very long time but you keep the smokers and the young pups in order you know they call you boss sort of call you sir and so I had my covering ceremony there now for years I refused to let anybody call me sir until I was slapped and said look you were the last sir and the last covering ceremony that we know happened with Chuck Ranslow yeah with Chuck Ranslow yeah you will use your title it's disrespectful not to and I had to turn around and take a great big thought and go oh oh he was a good friend he came to Australia at semi regular intervals oh I never seen it that way so now my boys call me sir they don't call me boss dog they don't call me alpha they call me sir one calls me daddy the ones that are in my house call me daddy sir which is adorable and so they're learning and they show respect to me which is always somewhat a little bit weird because I was always you know the subbie boy but apparently I've got a big massacre site as well so who knew in what year were you an IML 2011 okay that was a great year what made it so great I think it was the first year that you guys gave each of us contact before the actual event so some great mind turned around and created the IML 2011 contestants group so we were already talking it was a bit like being on the chat apps but on Facebook Messenger we were talking we're exchanging photos we were getting to know each other so when we all got together well we already knew a great deal about each other which meant it was just a formality of a cuddle yeah and being broke into our groups of houses of where you know groups that will be going to be managed by our den daddies and it was family it was instant family shake and bake just add water it was a great experience and I will encourage all of my boys should they want to I've got one that is aspiring I got one that's on the journey already there as a boot black to go and do it because for seven days you are immersed in a culture that sometimes we feel like only peripherally involved in in our community you know my home I'm known for my big boots my bleachers and my skin head attire the occasional chaps after the sun's gone down they know me as a leather boy in willamaloo and they're okay with that they know that I have boys coming and going from my house they're okay with that and that's the thing I've created my family and my family is connected to a wider family and yes they can chat to them wider but it's only when they go and experience they know really just how much family is how big it is and where they can go when they want to go over there the people that they want to interact with the people they want to interact sexually with people I want to go to dinner with but what are your thoughts on title holding in general look title holding and I train title holders okay title holdings a great thing because for a second we turn around and we give you four to six balls to juggle and we say make it work let's see where you can make it work and those who are strong who have great leadership in them they juggle they they get it they get it done they shine and their titles never really end but do you see that do you see the title scene declining increasing well it's funny here in Australia we have now ALM the Australian Leatherman competition which is held in Sydney which has kind of made the Sydney title somewhat defunct now the Sydney title is coming back well maybe there are discussions of it coming back or being retired because ALM's there and ALM you don't need a title to actually it becomes it becomes the feeder to IML but title holders do great work in our community they are signposts they are question-answerers and they are eventual leaders and if we don't replenish the leaders then the communities die the leaders are important because without them we don't get new recruits you know I had somebody say the gay Leatherman is a dinosaur it's a dying breed and that may be true the gay Leatherman may be a dinosaur that's a dying breed however the leather lifestyle isn't just gay Leatherman you know there are gay leather women gay leather bears and gay leather pups well not gay but you know what I mean leather pups and now we're seeing heteros joining us as well and they call themselves hetero flexible because you know they double title holders are great thing they help our community grow they stabilize it sometimes we get it wrong sometimes a title holder is a great big pain in your ass but providing they have their heart in the right place yeah but what advice have you for people who are new and coming into that be yourself understand that not everybody's gonna love you actually you're gonna probably piss of God damn few off but once you got that around and you've got that in your head that you can't please everybody but you're gonna do your damn best and you're gonna try and you're gonna learn and you're gonna take those pointers from the people that have come before you providing you're willing to learn you're gonna do wonders you're gonna inspire you're gonna you're gonna replenish the ranks of the leather lifestyle and those some people need that leather lifestyle I'm one of them I mean that it comes as part of almost most decisions I make okay um it decides whether I'm going away and instead of having a holiday with my boys somewhere nice I've had a working holiday this time and I've got to meet some amazing people some of them title holders some of them not some of them just a little bit odd and bit quirky but it hides my life it gives it structure it gives me something to fight for in my health because I have a broken back so you know my lifestyle is an asset to me it's an asset to the community and I hope that others who need that structure who want that structure who are more than just dance leather men or women they see what I do and they make positive changes in their life what's the biggest misconception about you my kindness is a weakness my kindness is just because that's me that I never yell well sometimes I do it's rare it's rare it takes a lot to really send me over the edge and when I pop people do duck that I hate all women because I don't I love most of my my leather sisters that here because I'm all about power I'm here because I'm all about love and that yeah I might have had a quirky quirky upbringing but I'm never gonna throw it only throw it not unless you actually want it Johnny Tyndall thank you for being part of Inside Leather History a fireside chat in Melbourne Australia