 Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to LEAD, Leading Equity and Diversity. I'm Dr. Debbie Willis, pronouns she, her, hers, and I lead the DEI certificate program at the University of Michigan's Rackham Graduate School. We started this series because scholars wanted to hear from real people their experiences leading equity, diversity, and social justice efforts. We thank you all for joining us today, given all that's going on in the world right now. We really appreciate your presence and willingness to be here with us. We understand that it's been a challenging year. In fact, the University of Michigan's President, Provost, and Chief Diversity Officer will host a moment of reflection to recognize the trauma our community has experienced over the past year. The moment will take place at 1 p.m. today at the beginning of our campus COVID-19 briefing. The U of M community is invited to share the moment together and reflect on a traumatic year that has included anti-Black racism, anti-Asian racism, the COVID-19 pandemic, mass shootings, the U.S. Capitol insurrection, and the verdict in the trial of the murder of George Floyd. We will end just a couple minutes early today to allow the opportunity for those who want to participate. I have included the link in the chat. Our guests outside of U of M are encouraged. We really encourage you also to take a moment to reflect as well. Before we get started, please note that you can enable the live close captioning by clicking the CC button on your screen. Though your audio and video are muted, we encourage you to engage in the conversation through the question and answer portal. We love to bring your voices into the conversation. If you see a question that interests you, please like or upvote that question. We will ask the questions with the broadest interest first. Before submitting your question, we ask that you consider how your words might impact others. We also ask that you remain patient with us. As hundreds of you registered for today's webinar and we received many questions at registration, we will not get to all of them in one hour. However, we are committed to continue these conversations and have dedicated this lead webinar series to address racial equity for an entire year. And we invite you to join us each month. Today's conversation will address how we might partner with HBCUs to advance racial equity in higher education. Our featured guests will discuss what an equitable partnership could entail. We have two phenomenal guests to help us lead this conversation. Dean Dubois Bowman and Dr. Rosalind Gregory Bass. Let's start with brief introductions. Rosalind, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey as a leader and advocate in the space of diversity, equity, inclusion, and social justice? Thank you, Deborah. And first of all, let me say thank you for inviting me to be part of this discussion today. For myself, I am the graduate of Spelman College or a graduate of Spelman College, where I first really, I feel, came into my own as a woman and a woman interested in STEM field. I'm originally from New York and also grew up quite a bit in Charleston, South Carolina. And both of those experiences helped to really lay the foundation for who I am and what it is that I wanted to do in terms of being impactful for the world. And so going to Historically Black College and University allowed me the time and the space to understand what it is that I wanted to do academically, but also to have a historical perspective of the contributions of many women and women of African descent who had come through those very, very doors. And so moving forward, I would say that going on to graduate professional school at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, also provided me with an experience and a wider lens to understanding current challenges as well as advancements that we've made in the area of diversity, equity and inclusion. And I would say that all of that has brought me to this stage where we are trying to be just very strategic about how we engage various institutions and how we seek to make a difference in the lives of future generations that desire to want to be successful in these various areas. And so not to go too long, but I will just say that over the years, I'm being able to partner with a number of different institutions who have similar goals and objectives have brought me to this point. Thank you, Ravelin. DuPois. Thank you very much. And I will also say it's a pleasure to be here with you, Dr. Willis and you, Dr. Gregory Bass to have this conversation. I think it's an important one, a timely one. So thank you for leading the initiative. So in terms of my background, I'm actually back in familiar territory in the sense that I grew up largely in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And my family more broadly, we have deep roots in Michigan, both of my parents grew up in Saginaw, Michigan, not far from here. And so my venture going to college, attending an HBCU in Morehouse College was sort of a first time away from home, first time in the South. And it was really a transformative experience for me in being around other young African-American men. It is proximal for those of you who are not aware to Spelman College that Dr. Gregory Bass attended just across the street in a cluster of schools within the Atlanta University Center. And so it was just a wonderful moment to be a part of a great energy, kind of learning myself, learning, being pushed academically and so forth. After completing Morehouse, I ended up doing graduate school. I actually came back to Michigan to do a master's and a degree in the School of Public Health where I now serve as Dean. And then I did my doctoral studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and then did faculty stints over the course of my faculty career. I've been at Emory University back in Atlanta where I spent almost 14 years, almost five years in New York as chair of the Department of Biostatistics at Columbia University and then back to the University of Michigan to serve as Dean. And so as I think about that educational and professional journey and my interest and focus on issues related to diversity, equity and inclusion, it really has been present the entire time. And as I think about early activities as a graduate student, for example, leaving Morehouse College and coming to graduate school being present in a very, very, very different environment where now I'm the only African-American in my classes, the need for me was very clear, was very apparent. I did not see it as a talent problem because I just left so much rich talent. And so began to actually engage in activities as a graduate student into my faculty career and into chairship and deanship. And one of the things that I have taken away from that experience and that I often echo to people is really learning how to engage and take opportunities to leave from where you are. And the ways that I engaged as a student, there were some unique advantages for that time and stage in my journey for doing so. The way that I engaged as a junior faculty member, there were some unique advantages of engaging in that way at that time. And so while things have changed, and I can now as Dean kind of influence broadly direction and vision and things like that, it is so important that we have contributions from so many different members of the community. Yes, thank you so much, both of you. So we'll start with a general question, and that is in your eyes, what has the pandemic unmasked in terms of racial inequity, especially in higher education? Dr. Bass, do you wanna start with that? Sure. I think we are in an unprecedented time. And when I think about the pandemic, I know for all whether it has been challenges related to our understanding of our health and wellness and how we navigate this space, I think we also have had multiple conversations about just how do we provide education for our students at the K through 12 level and those that are in higher ed? Being at Spelman in the Environmental and Health Sciences Program and Director of the Health Careers Program, we significantly have seen how our students have been impacted and how we've had to have a holistic approach to even how we deliver instruction and really change our pedagogy to meet the needs of our students so that they're still having just very sound educational experiences and feel prepared for what it is that they desire to do in the future. And so when I think about the pandemic, I think of how very early on learned about how technology is gonna be key to us being able to deliver just quality instruction and whether there were challenges if there were individuals who had the necessary computers, had access to Wi-Fi, had the ability to be able to be an environment where they felt that they were safe. I even know of some students that had to leave one home in order to go to another home where perhaps they had more of a quiet background that would allow them the ability to engage with their classmates, professors and to even be on camera. So that's another question about should I keep my camera on? Should my camera be off? And how does that impact relationships between professors and students that they normally would have in getting to know their audience? And so I think when we look at racial inequities and we look at those zip codes and communities that already were disproportionately just having a number of challenges, whether it was economics or whether it was even access to care when someone was getting ill, I think that all of that plays a huge role in how we navigate the higher ed space and working with both students, faculty and staff alike. Yeah, and you covered so much ground that I couldn't agree more. The, I hope that a lasting lesson for us as a society will stem from the degree to which the pandemic has unmasked many racial inequities in society. And I'm intentional about the use of the word unmasked because they didn't introduce them. The inequities have always been here, they've always been present, but the pandemic has shined in a very glaring way a light on many of those inequities and they've played out in so many different ways. We've certainly seen them play out on the health and wellness side and even locally in the state of Michigan, early on the disproportionate impact of the pandemic on people in Michigan where we represent, African-Americans represent about 14% of the population yet at one point, fairly early on, 38% of the cases over 40% of the deaths and there are no biological factors that explain that. It's all due to a series of factors that are based on structural inequities in our society. And we've also are seeing things play out even in the way of vaccination. And I know that there is a lot of attention focused on, on the issue of hesitancy. I have spoken about the issue of hesitancy but right alongside of hesitancy, there are structural, when you have a scarce resource, there are structural issues regarding access to things like vaccination. And so, those things I hope will be lasting lessons for us to ensure that we address them and take the hard measures and hard steps to be able to prevent those kinds of societal impacts. Dr. Gregory Bass mentioned also in terms of education, you know, at the University of Michigan, we had a couple of business days and a weekend in the winter semester of 2020 to pivot to completely remote instruction. That was not sufficient time for us to really reflect a lot on the situations that people return to and how the different learning environments may be more conducive or less conducive to dealing with the rigors of education. So any number of ways that I think the pandemic has really illustrated some of the underlying fault lines in terms of structural inequities. And I hope that, you know, we are wise enough to learn from them and take the measures to prevent them. Thank you. So now this question is about higher education in particular. So higher education overall has not created an equitable environment, especially for people of color. And this is, yeah. So what do you feel are the advantages of attending an HBCU? A recent article suggests that attending HBCUs can be health protective for graduate students. What I mean for our students overall. So what are your perspectives or ideas on that as you both went to an HBCU? Sure. I don't mind starting, you know, there are so many advantages in my view of attending an HBCU. You know, I think there are many outlets for talented college bound or students. And so HBCUs serve as one very important vehicle. And I think to think about the advantages of HBCUs we have to think about HBCUs also in a historical context. You know, the first HBCU was established in 1837. The reason that that HBCU was established is because there was no avenue for access to higher education. My alma mater, Morehouse College founded in 1867, very similarly. And, you know, so they've played an important role historically, but we also have to think while those dates begin with 18, segregation was legal in this country up through the 19, well into the 1960s. And so there were limited opportunities for access for very talented students to go and pursue education and HBCUs filled a critical void. With that, you know, HBCUs have learned to do a lot of things really, really well and, you know, developing young talent and so now just even thinking more about a personal experience at an HBCU, you know, it was the first time in my life where I felt that race just didn't play the same kind of role in my educational process. And there's a sort of freedom that comes along with that, that it might be hard to appreciate if you haven't been in those shoes, but I felt like I could go and just be. And that was very powerful for me. There are many sort of reaffirming aspects of one's identity. You know, that's an important, hits you at a very important time in your life where you're growing at an accelerated rate into adulthood and reflecting on things in a different way perhaps than you have in the past. And so there are so many benefits of that. There are benefits of having, you know, same race mentors and, you know, more significant numbers than often it is possible elsewhere. And then exposure to black leaders, one of the things that I recognize while being in college, but perhaps took it for granted some, you're exposed to phenomenal leaders and on a regular basis and in the extent to which you see something, you know it's possible and it serves therefore as motivation, as inspiration for you in your pursuits. You know, as you gain clarity on what you want to do, you know, it sort of removes the question of whether or not it's possible because of the many phenomenal leaders who you've been exposed to. And then, you know, the last thing I'll say is, you know, I did feel that there was this deep sense of pride that the institution takes in the success of students. And, you know, I was a motivated student. I didn't necessarily need any extrinsic motivation, if you will, but there's still something there where, you know, you are even further motivated to do well, to succeed, almost in the interest of all of those individuals at the institution who've invested so much in you. And that can be very, very, very powerful as well. Thank you. Did you want to add at all, Rosalind? Yes, I did. Just as soon as you said the word HBCU, I don't know if you could see the big smile that Dr. Bowman and I had that immediately came across our face. What it does, I feel, and I don't want to put any words in your mouth, but it takes us back to a time that was so impactful in a very positive way. And so when I think of myself and others who have gone to HBCUs, it's a universal feeling for the exact same reasons that Dr. Bowman mentioned. And for me, when I think about my experience and the way that I sum it up, it really is a legacy building and understanding the historical context of our historically black colleges and universities, why they were founded and how those individuals who have graduated have been able to go on and transcend and break barriers. It, for me, was not a very uncommon thing to do. I am the product of two HBCU graduates. My mother went to Claflin University. My father went to Denmark Technical College in South Carolina, in Denmark, South Carolina, and many cousins who have also graduated from historically black colleges and universities. I was the second to go to Stelman. I have a cousin who graduated two years before me. My sister went, my daughter went, and hopefully my niece will be going. And while there, you could see that in speaking with your many classmates and others who have also had an opportunity to have this experience that going to an HBCU definitely gave us an opportunity to just be. But I think going to a single gender institution also allowed us to have something I call the mirror effect. And for me as a black woman going to Stelman and being there under the presidency of Dr. Jeanetta Cole, that in itself was an everyday affirmation of having a candy spirit. And there were so many, and I just would say that the article points out something that as someone who has a background as a physician, I will tell you that to know that where you go to school, that there's a correlation to future development of chronic disease, I found to be very, very interesting. And it has to perhaps, it may perhaps have to do with the stressors and challenges that sometimes we may face during those formative years between the ages of 18 and 23, and how that allows us or clips us to be able to navigate the world. And so that's why I found that article to be very telling and interesting. And I think others should read it as well. Thank you both so much for sharing. I think it's so important for people to hear those experiences. People don't understand why people go to HBCUs if they had a scholarship or something or opportunity to go to a top Ivy League or research one school. So it's very important for people to understand and hear that. Thank you for sharing that. So the partnerships between PWIs, primarily white institutions and HBCUs can advance equity in higher education. What are some of the benefits of these kinds of partnerships? And what are some of the goals? We can start with you, Rosalyn. Yes, I will say that again, I'm a product of a pipeline. Having gone to Spelman, we had a professor who was on sabbatical from the University of Wisconsin. There was a relationship that was already there. And it allowed for students to go from Spelman to the University of Wisconsin, participate in summer programs. And then from there, we really received the mentorship and guidance to participate and gain acceptance to graduate and professional schools at the institution. What I have found is that when these partnerships develop and there's a understanding of the culture of both institutions, it can really set the stage for putting students on a trajectory to accomplishing their goals. I have worked now at Spelman for 17 years. And in this capacity, we have been able to develop a number of partnerships. Last night, we had our senior honors and recognition ceremony and we highlighted some of those partnerships. And I think when we speak again about HBCUs, it's important for our audience to know that there are many relationships that exist, that sometimes you may not find at other institutions. And when they are put together in a way that allows for our students to come, understand what it is that they wanna do to impact the world and to know that there is already a door or a seat waiting for them at another institution, just allows for them to be able to meet their goals a whole lot faster and with less preparation or challenges. I think that it's important who the liaisons are and that first there has to be a synergy in understanding what the two institutions are trying to accomplish and that there is a mutual respect and benefit for both institutions. It cannot be a one-way street. And I think that as long as we can recognize and respect what both are bringing to the table, it then allows for a more sustainable relationship and it's just been a pleasure being able to work with the institutions that we have connected with and so excited about the one that we have with the university admissions. Thank you. So the voice just adding on to that a little bit. What should an equitable relationship between a PWI and HBCU include? Yeah, so I'll just try to be brief and adding even a little bit to the previous question and then getting to the subsequent question. When I think about the benefit, I think of sort of collectively colleges and universities really as a vehicle and serving the public good. And if that is really a basic part of our mission, how do we do that? And how do we do that most effectively? And this will play out in different ways across different disciplines, but in public health, we're working with communities to improve overall health and wellbeing. And so to do so most effectively, we have to be sure that we're training people who reflect those communities. And so diversity efforts in public health, therefore, are directly tied just to our pursuit of excellence and impact. And so as I think about things like institutional partnerships, in many ways they contribute to both partners pursuit of some of that public good that we're trying to serve. So the elements that I think are really important that Dr. Gregory Bass just alluded to is, first of all, it has to be a co-equal, bi-directional partnership. And ideally is holistic and comprehensive as possible. And we can talk more about details of the partnership that we've been working on, but the focus is really around providing advanced educational opportunities for students. In doing so, it's important that we build trust in the relationship, right? And so that actually takes time and as mentioned, the partners matter. And there's a demonstration there that of sort of trust and intent and goodwill and all those sorts of things that have to be built up. And it's not too dissimilar from the work that we do even in public health in terms of working with communities. If that trust is not there, it undermines the possibility for success longer term. And so ensuring really that we, in this case, on the receiving end of some of the most promising students at Spelman College will really support the students, provide the kind of educational experience and pathway that will prepare the students to go out and have that kind of impact and service to the public good that I mentioned that will reinforce the trust that we've built with the partners. And then importantly, I think it's that while students are more transient, members of the respective institutions are more longstanding. So the deeper the relationships can grow, whether it's guest lecturing, whether it's collaborations on research, but to have those roots, if you will, that become very entrenched in the partnership, I think further reinforces success as you move on. Yes, did you want to add Rathalya? I just want to echo the point about the sincerity that is associated with the development of the relationship. It cannot just be a strategic goal or a campus plan without there being sincerity behind the effort. Because I think when that is very clear, it resonates throughout the design and implementation of the partnership. And our students are also very aware of the sincerity of the intention. And so the time it takes to build is not something that's an overnight thing. And so I agree. The way in which we do this is so important. And I also will echo, even though our students are at the heart of what we do, I believe there should be a 360 degree approach, which means that there is collaboration, not only among students, but there's collaboration among faculty, administrators, so that at any one point, we are all understanding of how it is going to take a huge collaborative effort in order for us to see the results that we desire for our students. And in our students. And I'd like to just add, and I'll say this, I know Dr. Gregory Bass sort of lives this being as Spelman, but talented students coming out of Spelman have so many opportunities. They just have so many options for what they decide to do at the next phase of their education, at the next phase of their career journey. And so the sincerity that she mentioned is so important because they have a choice to make, right? And by choosing Michigan as a partner, they're entrusting that again, that they are delivering their promising students who are forgoing other opportunities. And so I just want to make that explicit because it is an important part of the equation. And I think fair to watch and see what happens, to really take notes and see what the experiences are like and not to say that there are sometimes sort of speed bumps and things like that along the way, but that sincerity and the commitment and dedication really to the success of the partnership, to the success of the students has to be there. Yeah, thank you so much. So I'm gonna ask you all to talk a little bit about the partnership that the two of you have. But before I do that, what I heard from you is gonna take time and sincerity and compassion, commitment and trust. And we really have to be intentional about that and knowing that all partners come in being equal. So I do wanna acknowledge that University of Michigan and Rackham Graduate School has a position that is the Minority Serving Institutions Coordinator because it's important that you work to establish these kind of relationships. And I wanna acknowledge my colleague in Rackham, Edmond Graham, who does phenomenal work in trying to get these partnerships with various types of institutions, minority serving institutions, as well as in our, and even at University of Michigan, the partnerships between each other. So I just wanna acknowledge him. He does also MSI coffee chats that are similar webinar structures. And I think it will be very interesting. We'll put that in the chat for you and also send it to you when we send the resources. But I think it's important to watch those as well. So can you provide an example of a partnership that you have created with an HBCU or PWI and process your department, oh, and the process that your department or college went through to create it? Sure. I don't mind starting on this question. And starting, I would like to acknowledge the role of Rackham, and which is our graduate school and really being a great institutional partner and supporter for our efforts. You know, as mentioned, even in response to the first question, these things have always been significant interests of mine personally at various stages of my career and the leadership. And so, I brought that with me to the University of Michigan and this is something that was going to be on my sort of priority list, no matter the situation, but to land at a university where there's a broad, prioritization from the president level down and then supported through schools and colleges and in this case, the graduate school is just a tremendous resource. I wanna just acknowledge that. So back in, you know, we started probably back in the spring of 2019. So when we say it takes some time, you know, that sort of the earliest kind of dates for me in thinking about what could a partnership look like, what could be appealing and sort of serve as an incentive to students and to partner institution, et cetera. And granted, we have experienced a pandemic since that time. And so, you know, the two year timeline to date, we have to acknowledge that as well. But what we ended up conceptualizing is basically an accelerated master's degree program where students from, in this case, Spelman College would complete three years of study at Spelman and then come to the University of Michigan to complete the remaining two years that would then qualify them for not only a bachelor's degree but also a master's degree. So it's an accelerated master's degree program in a time, in a five year period. And, you know, I thought that that would have, would be attractive to students who, you know, would have a choice to make of, should I stay at Spelman? Should I, you know, go to the University of Michigan? Should I finish at Spelman and go to some other graduate school outside of, to pursue public health outside of University of Michigan? And so, you know, what are some of the advantages from a student perspective? And thought that, you know, that that concept was a reasonable one. I will acknowledge a much longer standing dual degree program in engineering that has existed in the Atlanta University Center for at least 30 years. I don't know the exact date. Actually, my wife is a product of that program having done a dual degree between Spelman and Georgia Tech. And so, you know, that also served as a model of how to go about thinking about the partnership. Concept is easy. How do you actually figure out the details, embark upon the hard work to really make progress and into that, I really want to also think just, you know, my team at the School of Public Health, Rosalind and her team at Spelman for really rolling up their sleeves and doing the detailed work that is necessary to position the partnership for success. And as we think about elements of what makes for successful partnership, there has to be commitment from leadership but you also have to have a set of champions and kind of a guiding coalition within the respective institutions to be able to carry that work forward. So in summary, there's lots of details, you know, we have at this point, the program that's been approved will be for biostatistics, environmental health sciences and nutritional sciences. We have other departments in public health that are very interested in joining. And we're also thinking about even a broader portfolio within that so that this accelerated master's degree, although a central role in the initial kind of focus for the partnership, it will really expand to a much broader set of options. So in the interest of brevity, I'll stop there and turn it over to Rosalind if she wants to add anything. Yes, thank you for that. It does involve a number of different players and as mentioned, this has to be one of the most comprehensive teams that we've had in development of our partnership, excuse me. And so Sharon Cardia, Elise Fousey, Nicole Burnside at Michigan along with Dr. Nathia Tolbert at Spelman. We started this work, my goodness. It has to be not last February, February before that. I remember right before the pandemic, really had an impact on our travel. We had decided that they need to come to Spelman in order to really do a needs assessment. They brought a full team, our faculty, the different divisions had an opportunity to meet with them. They had an actual focus group with students and we had an opportunity to find out what would be attractive to them. After that, it really required us meeting on a very regular basis. So at a number of different points in this, we were meeting weekly to just sort of tease out what are the details and we don't want to miss anything. What are going to, what's our timeline looking like? Even having a shared document to develop the MOU. And then from there, understanding that because we wanted to engage students and faculty, we were able to find out who are cohorts at the various institution on the faculty that we're gonna serve as our sort of our individuals who were going to be our team leads. And so they've met twice in terms of faculty meeting groups and sharing their research in ways in which they're able to collaborate. And then they've had an opportunity to meet with students during our lunch and learn sponsored by the health careers program. And most recently our environmental and health sciences program day, they also came to speak with students from a recruitment standpoint. And the reason we're doing this is because it should be just a very transparent relationship that is seamless between the two schools. And so when a student here is University of Michigan, they should be able to say, oh, yes, we're familiar with them. We went to the lunch and learn. Oh, yes, we know that they helped with a departmental initiative that we had. And so when they're ready to sit down and fill out an application, it is going to be more of just a regular process for them versus a fact-finding on who this institution is, what are they about and how do they know Spelman and the Spelman student. And so as Dr. Bowman mentioned, students have choices. And with that, they wanna make sure that they're going to get return, their ROI, return on investment of time and to be able to make sure that it is going to help them. And I just wanna echo with a five year program, it's about us thinking strategically about what are the needs of this generation when during our time, we just enjoyed school. Enjoy that experience. But when you talk to students now, not only are they having those joyous experiences in their undergraduate education, but they're also wanting to know, okay, how does this course, how is it gonna relate to my overall degree? How is it going to apply to what I wanna do in the future? How much does it cost? And is this going to negatively impact my income to debt ratio? They want to take all of that into consideration. And so having a five year program versus a six year program can significantly impact a student when it comes to just their economic standing in the future. And that's so important for underrepresented students and students as stated, coming from underserved backgrounds. Thank you so much. So now I'll take a question from our audience. It says, what are some of the indicators of an equal state in effective partnerships between PWIs and HBCUs? When sometimes resources, unfortunately, have not been distributed equitably across institutions involved in these partnerships, i.e. funding, infrastructure, faculty, effort, opportunities for students. I would say that, first of all, thank you for that question. It's a very important question. And in the development of the various partnerships we have at Spelman with other institutions, we're very transparent about bringing that conversation to the forefront. The way in which we have found institutions to assist in that is to really lay out what are the needs on both ends. I know early on our Michigan liaisons, we talked about what funding was available on therein. I know that there was a grant proposal that was submitted through RACM that allowed us to garner resources to support various faculty endeavors, training. We also know that as we're looking to make sure students have a number of different experiences and exposures, we call it the Michigan Takeover when all of the graduate programs come to really talk about what summer research opportunity programs on which are stipend based for students that they would be able to participate in. And then also it is our hope through our faculty collaborations that there may be joint benefits when it comes to writing various grant proposals for research projects and then being able to of course include student opportunities within that. And then lastly, when we're thinking about our students transitioning to a graduate or professional school, we want to make sure that there is scholarship funding that is available for those students. So that again, they are able to focus in on their education when they transition to their school of choice and that they have the ability to use their experience in a way that will allow them to then garner those career opportunities that they desire. It was very beneficial for me at the University of Wisconsin going from Spelman to a PWY, they provided advanced opportunity fellowship for all students of color who were seeking a graduate or professional degree. And so I just say that students look at those things when they're making that decision. And so I just wanted to mention that in terms of ways in which they're sort of equitable resources that allow us to overcome those barriers. Yeah, what a wonderfully comprehensive answer. I think you've covered all of the ground that came to mind for me. I would like to just reinforce that it has to be sufficient priority to invest resources. So now putting on my Dean hat at the University of Michigan we can't talk about it if we're not willing to invest resources and not that all of us have constraints and so the details of what that looks like might vary but it has to be a part of the equation from the very beginning. And I would say not even ending at resources to attract students to pursue their graduate education but also resources to support students during that process and thinking about how our students fit in into our community on a special program like this, like the accelerated masters, they're a bit different from our undergraduate student population, they're a bit different than our traditional graduate level population. And so all of our student services have really been designed to support those other groups. And so as we bring a new group of learners in, what adjustments do we need to make to ensure that they're properly supported internally? Thank you, thank you so much. So we're gonna ask now about obstacles. Can you name obstacles that one may have to overcome when creating these partnerships between PWIs and HBCUs? For example, differences in culture or schools of thought. And then I'll just add a little bit to that question based on what someone said in the chat and that is, do we have opportunities for like the University of Michigan to collaborate with MSIs to develop capacity building activities? Because she said that sometimes institution may face, people that's coming from MSIs may face limited exposure to big data science or biostatistics, et cetera. So in terms of the obstacles, I would say that many of the obstacles we've already alluded to from a different angle of talking about the importance of elements of a sound and strong partnership. One of the things I would add in addition to those things that have been mentioned is, it takes, you have to ensure that you have buy-in from the local community. And you don't wanna venture into a major initiative if there's not sufficient support. And sometimes that process can take time, right? And that's where at the University of Michigan, I feel we benefit from the broader institutional focus and the broader institutional priority, that we are perhaps much further along than some other institutions might be in those kinds of discussions. And so those things came relatively easy for us in public health, but they have to happen. You have to make sure that you have support and that you answer all of the questions and that people are really committed to the success. And then hard work that we've talked about earlier to ensure that we're getting off on a strong footing in an equitable manner would be other things that I think could serve as obstacles. So any one of those things that we mentioned all the way through insufficient investment of resources I think could serve as obstacles if not properly addressed or properly hand. Yes, when it comes to challenges that I have seen in my time, it really comes from a perspective of assumptions. And I would say it would be the assumption of what each institution has or doesn't have. And what the capabilities are of all of those who are involved from students to faculty. And so I think that that's why it's so important on the front end just to have very frank conversations about what will the relationship look like and how are we going to partner in terms of there being this consistent transfer of information from both sides. There are a lot of things that are happening at historically black colleges and universities in terms of their overall success with the matriculation and graduation of students in fields that oftentimes there are huge challenges at PWIs in terms of retention of students. And so there are many different centers of excellence that have been established at those institutions to address that and could really be a benefit to PWIs. On the same side of that, PWIs may have various research centers and other types of projects that are ongoing that could also be of assistance to HVCUs. So when it comes to data science and biostatistics, as was mentioned in the question, there may be individuals that don't know that the Atlanta University Center Consortium has a huge data science initiative that's been ongoing for the past two years. And it is being funded and it also has allowed for faculty and students to be engaged in data science. And so the talent and the resources are there and the exposures are also happening so that when they transcend, well, I don't want to use the word transcend, but transition to another institution, it will be very important for those professors and other colleagues that they're working with to really understand their background so that there isn't an assumption that they're coming from a point of deficit versus point of already happening. And I think that that's probably been one of the biggest concerns that students have stated when they go to different schools is, Dr. Bass, conversations are being had and I don't know why it's being given in a tone as though I haven't already traveled to six countries and I've done research starting in high school after my freshman sophomore and junior year of college. I'm very familiar with using biomedical tech or using biotechnology to answer research questions that I've already served at the national level in a number of different organizations and I'm ready to come and share my skills and talents with this institution so that I can just further my training to become the future physician engineer, doctor, lawyer, public health specialist that I can be. So it's important, I think that there is research done on both sides so that assumptions are not had and individuals can really capitalize on the skills and talents that are being brought to the institution. What, can I still one minute? I know we're approaching. I know, so one minute. So excellent point, the assumptions are often made. I want to acknowledge just more house that they were recognized by American Mathematical Society for having an outsized impact in terms of producing mathematics graduates. There's a public health sciences institute that does an extensive amount in biostatistics. Dr. Bass just mentioned even more recent initiatives in data science. And so often the foundations are there. The beauty of a partnership is you get to learn about those, maybe debunk some of those myths or assumptions but then also to be able to refine a detailed plan for what would be most beneficial for students to do during their time, in this case at Spelman that would position them for success. And so the earlier students might have an idea of a direction they want to go, the more flexibility they'll have to be able to structure their curriculum and selection of courses to support it. So I promise one minute I'll stop there. That was a great note to end on. And unfortunately, I mean, the time goes so fast every time but I do want to say thank you both so much for joining us. I want to thank all of the participants who joined us today. Our leadership at Rackham Graduate School, my colleague, Edmund Graham and Nicole Burnside who helped get this started. And I just want to say we will have this webinar posted and so we'll provide the link for you and we'll send you resources and just keep the conversation going. Thank you so much for being here today. We put the link in the chat again for those of you who want to join the moment of reflection. And I look forward to seeing you all next month. Thank you.