 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go Mind pump with your hosts Sal DeStefano Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews In this episode of mind pump. We have to do it really fast because Justin has to get on a conference call in like 30 seconds We interviewed Dr. Andy. How do you say his last name? Kaplan. No Galpin. I knew you'd say it wrong Brilliant doctor. Dr. G brilliant brilliant dude. Love talking with this guy about muscle adaptation fat loss Technology how it's affecting our fitness. He's the author of a book called unplugged Evolve from technology to upgrade your fitness performance and consciousness Incredible fucking book that aligns exactly with the message that we've been promoting on mind pump for quite some time It's a great book. You need to read it He's also the host of the podcast the body of knowledge and his website is andy galpin That's andy galpin.com and his instagram page is at Dr. Andy Galpin now that all being said we do talk a little bit about recruitment patterns in this particular episode I do want to mention we have the prime and prime pro bundle This is our correctional exercise bundle So if you have injuries, if you have pain, you can't figure out why your shoulder hurts If your squat is stagnant and you don't know why you're not able to generate more power By far our most revolutionary program that we have created to date for sure Everybody doesn't matter what kind of what kind of program you're currently following like sal said bodybuilding weightlifting You know, uh obstacle course racing cross cross fit you name it this orange theory This is ideal for everybody within it comes an at-home test to assess you So it's very individualized to each person for their specific goals and whatever they're doing as far as their workouts So make sure you guys check that out. Check it out. It's at mind pump media.com. So without any further ado Here we are talking to dr. Andy galpin. Oh boy He sounds more handsome than what he really is Um It's good. It's a good thing right adam hits on our guests a lot. You know, I'm exactly handsome enough. That's that's all you have to That's good. You know, I know what that means by the way. It means you're Not it's hard to navigate. It's hard to navigate all the poon tang that you're surrounded So you're like if I were more handsome, yeah, it would be that's what I'm saying. You'd almost die Exactly. I mean listen. There's water. There's water They might suffocate you and then there's a flood that you you know, you can drown in And andy is almost drowning in the tang. Yeah, he's keeping his his nose above water That's it. No more handsome. You were there. So besides uh, besides pussy What's the other motivation behind the field that you went into and studied? Uh, I don't know what other motivation there would be Because when you decide that how old are we right? We were about 17 to 19 years old when you What's your what's your phd in exactly? Oh, no way really? Yeah, I'm gonna say you lie. You did nothing What's your phd in any human bio energetics? That's awesome fancy way of saying muscle physiology Uh muscle chemistry that type of stuff. So human performance. I mean, I think like most of us that get into this field We were pretty decent athletes, but not good enough You know and you're like you have that right level of incentive You know if you're shitty of an athlete, it's like, I'm never gonna get there Like I don't go be an artist or something That's funny to speculate on like do you think if you were like this super gifted athlete that you would You would have not gone down the direction that you went I don't know like I think that has a huge part to do with it because for me You know, if my training wasn't right, then that was the difference between Like playing a lot or playing a little or being an all-american or just being all like things like that You had to fine-tune everything to the last degree, right? And I just grew up in a culture both my family and the city I grew up in where like if you lost and it didn't matter like losing a sports game or losing a mortgage like any form of Lost because you went didn't work hard enough like that was just completely unacceptable Unacceptable like you could lose a tiny little town called Rochester, Washington So guarantee you not a single person in that town will listen to this podcast. Oh man, you'd be surprised I was in Alaska. Okay. It uh in not in a place like anchorage or a place anyone knows I was in scagway And some other place. We're huge in scagway. Yeah, we and I had we had fans I mean, there's like 800 people here. How the fuck, you know, you'd be surprised man How cool is it the first time you guys started getting recognized in places like that? Yeah, it was it was it was a trip and I remember With that came the other embarrassing moments though, too So we and we've shared this before on the podcast right when we started to get you know, we get Fly down LA and get recognized. It was like, oh shit like people are listening to us It's official, you know, and you know, you see your downloads and shit like that But until it starts to connect like that where you're out of your own major circle and somebody recognizes you Someone beside your mom's right job. Yeah, right So that started happening But then like the asshole moments would happen like we were at this like fitness convention Where now that I've gotten used to people running into us. I'm like, okay There's probably a lot of people here that probably know us because you're at a fitness convention And we justin and I are walking around this corner and like this group of probably 10 or 15 like hot chicks Good-looking girls. Oh, they like are waving and waving us down and they come running over with the camera And they're like, can we take a picture and I'm like, yeah, of course No problem here, he's like me and he goes, of course I did not do that But I did I did go in to put my arm around the girl and she hands me the camera to take a picture of her and Oh So I took a picture of him taking a picture of them to just you know after that moment deflated the shit out of me I was working with kevin james the actor On um paul blart 2 the movie. Oh, no way. We filmed all of it. My kids love that movie Yeah, so I was flying back and forth between vegas and la quite often And one of the times the limo driver picked me up and I was wearing a barbell shrug t-shirt, right? And uh, he picked me up and he's listening boom like he's listening to barbell shrug Oh, wow, and he he's so he's got my little name, you know when you get off the thing It's like Andy Galpin or whatever and he comes down and he has he doesn't put the connection together at all Oh, wow And he's just like bang it and then he like looks and he starts looking down and he's like wait a minute And he was listening to an episode that I was on you were on there And he was like holy shit He's like he's like look look look and he's like pause like 30 minutes in or whatever and he's like Holy fuck. I'm picking you up and I was like That's great. I'm big time. Nothing like that that's ever happened again But that's the one thing I can got We consider ourselves elist elisters. Yeah, that's what Vinny said, right? Vinny told us that Vinny torturates. Natasha calls me e-minus E-minus Yeah, you're getting there. She was like you were g and then you were on rogan now you're e-minus like You bumped up a level. How was it being on rogan? That's like he's like the the king of podcast I really enjoyed that that episode by the way. Yeah, you know like he's a he's a really awesome dude and I like that format as you guys know like I like being able to talk for a long time I hate the short little shit because most of the people that are in the positions I am like anytime you ask my opinion. It's extremely nuanced And I want the full time to be able to vet that and explain and I just want to be like Akito's bad or keto's good Like I hate that so I liked having three hours to just really settle my position on things But having said that it's sort of funny because you know like He just has a different environment for a lot of things. So it was like An old time you're having two conversations like you're having a conversation with him And you have the conversation with yourself the whole time. Not like you're nervous, but it's always like should I have said that? Yeah, yeah, or you're like, oh fuck like and then he'll say something You're like what like when you try to figure out where he's going Yeah, you're like because he's sometimes he's you know out there like all of us are right So, you know fun. Did you notice like a big surge and uh, you know, I don't know social media or and just He's got a big. It's not what people think. Okay. Like the book took off, of course So that launched but it's not like you go from 5 000 followers on instagram to 185 000 Like you don't have these rocket of numbers like you definitely check your phone. It's blown up For sure, but you know like people like to think you're gonna. I'll like you have a million followers like no You gain like 5 000 followers. How long did you notice the impact kind of I mean, I'm sure it's still it's still rolling I was gonna say you're probably still getting stuff trickled in But did you see like this first initial like huge wave and then now it's just like kind of keeps trickling it Yeah, like it was pretty big like from the second the show started because he goes live So you're filming live and all said it's like your phone is like bing bing bing bing to start You know going and that didn't really stop for a month or something like that How did he did he find you or did you contact him so like that's like it's funny because I've answered that question more times than anything I was like, how do I get on rogan? It's like a like that's what you're asking me. Just come on and say like You give me joe's phone number. That's what you're saying That's what you're saying. Uh, no, he reached out to me. Oh very cool Which I think is the only way you get people like in that position their attention You have to do some shit. Is that why opera is not responding to my No, that's totally separate. Yeah, it is totally separate. Now. Did he get a hold of your book ahead of time? You didn't even know until like the last five minutes of show. He's like, oh, you have a book out So I had nothing to do with the book. Oh, wow It was completely a serendipitous like super lucky that it I was on rogan two weeks after my book came out Wow Yeah, that was not I bet you see athlete. I mean everybody has I was interested Everybody has to think the same way. I thought which is I thought that was all part of the reason why it was part of the launch In the strategy, which is why we didn't even talk about the book until the last like five minutes of the show Everyone's like, oh, you're pr people. I'm like, fuck down. They didn't do anything Like the book published. No, like I have done like none of the stuff that we've done It was uh, it was uh, the planets were an interesting alignment that science. Yeah The universe energy like he just came upon It's sort of funny because I mean I'll just give the secret away here exclusive, you know to We love those. Yeah Uh You know when I look at the situations like that and I know, you know, because we're all elist people, right? So we have that same thing of people wanting to get on your show. I'm sure And it's like you have okay people wanting my attention I looked at the things like what gets my attention and what pushes me away And I'm just going to do the same thing for him Like I'm not going to do this yet that the normal people do that I get irritated by and I'm going to do the things That actually when people get my attention And that is first and foremost like you have to do something of actual quality and interest Like if you're not doing something super interesting like go fuck yourself You're not going to get in an interesting place. You're not there yet. Right exactly like you don't honestly deserve You got to work your way out Yeah, so I'm like, okay I want to do that and I looked at how I handle my social media and I looked and I'm like, well, he's not super active on instagram And he's not super active on facebook and he said this a million times like how many times has he talked about loving twitter? Right. All right, so I'm gonna go there. Well, I had like a thousand followers on twitter I didn't have a huge following but he doesn't care like if you notice the guest he brings on he doesn't care about those things Right, he wants quality. Yeah, right or somebody that's really interested Interesting and so I just made sure that like my twitter page I didn't like for the record. I didn't build my twitter page just to get joe rogan's attention Right, but it was like, okay. This is a good way to think about how you handle your social media Is like I want if someone because what happens in situations when you get people's attention like that You get one chance and they're going to give you like a quick scroll through like all right What's the suit all about? if your last seven tweets are Like something irrelevant about your dog or politics or something they're gonna be like, well, I'm not gonna This is a muscle physiologist, but then his last 12 tweets were about the seahawks They're like whatever like I'm out, right? Right So I just make sure like the vast majority of my stuff is really related to what I do like Oh, here's this fiber type paper this new thing we learned about how muscle grows or white strings or something And I still tweeted about other shit if I if I wanted to but I made that my profile and I made sure that when I did stuff on there It was mostly focused on what makes me unique and different So if he did or anybody else that's important happen to scroll past me They're gonna be like, oh, shit. This person's doing pretty cool research Well, it's because your attitude towards social media is Business is you know promoting your business helping you Grow your audience in that particular sense. Most people social media is well our distraction. It's actually yeah I don't I don't have any business at all Like I don't have a single thing of business I don't have a single newsletter or mailing list like I don't know anything business wise But it's the same point I kept it genuine like I want to put on there what I actually do and what I find helpful So if people are following me I'm going to do something that I genuinely think that they might be interested and helpful And if that means I have a thousand or 600,000 it doesn't matter to me. I don't really care about that Let's get into this a little bit because I already off air. I asked you a few business type questions and You saw me almost throw up. Yes. You were uh You I you can tell you're almost allergic to a lot of these fucking questions Like you don't want anything to do with it. I asked the sales and marketing thing You're like, you know, I had to business another thing partner You're just like I don't you have no desire to do that So what is it that motivates you and then also on that note? How the fuck do you financially survive with that attitude? What have you been successful? Well, you know, uh, so the financial one is is Is an interesting one and like I have a full-time job. I'm tenured Like I'm done there and I don't get paid much. You can look up my wages if you want that's all you know public information um, and so Like that's just not a huge part of my life Um, you can look at that and I can survive financially, but I'm also not That's not how I like this stuff is not how I feed myself I don't pay my mortgage because of my book sales If if I get a book sale, then that's just gonna allow me to buy more plane tickets to come up to san francisco to work a Jimmy Moore Or whatever. So I don't I don't have those things I'm not trying to build a company and make sure I have a retirement on things So I don't I just have a totally different aspect of what I do for a living That's my real job Now, of course all of us like to make more money like that's more that's that's great But my philosophy has been like if you do something that's genuinely good, you're going to make money And and I'm not going to try to scrape every single penny out of every single thing I do because I feel like if you do something really really good And it's worth 10 million dollars and you make a million off of it. Well a million dollars is so pretty awesome And eventually like what's what's happened recently is people have come to me being like I love the business aspect of it Why don't you let me do that and you do what you do and I'm like, oh perfect That's exactly what I want to do if you want to handle all that shit And that's why I have Josh Embry and the guys at Body Knowledge He's like You got amazing stuff here, dude. Like you're sitting on a goldmine. You just do you let me put business behind it Fine like I'm not scamming people. I'm not doing anything disingenuous But I'm not doing any of that stuff because it drains me Emotionally it drains my time like a James all that stuff and I'm like, I don't want to put myself in a position to fail Like why try to learn a bunch of shit. I have a phd in muscle physiology Why why go spend time trying to learn advertising marketing? So tell me tell me where this tell me where this attitude has benefited you and then tell me where it's hurt you Well, it's definitely hurt me in terms of I'm sure I could have made quite a bit more money Like I'm sure that I could optimize book sales and figured out ways to do that and made a lot more money Got a lot more attention Like anyone that's business that'll hear my attitude is like well, that's Yeah, but what you don't realize is if you spend a little bit more time on the business then your reach Will go further and then what you want to do is easier and I totally acknowledge that So it's clearly going to hurt me in those ends. Like if you look at my social media, I don't have a huge following You know relative to what it could be Some other people might feel have a digit more than me and things like that So it's I think it obviously it hurts opportunity It hurts travel. It hurts is her income things like that But where it's helped is it allows me to actually keep focused on doing the things I want to do And allows me to do stuff and produce more of what I do Generate more content and have better relations with people which And most importantly, it lets me like go to bed at night And I'm like, I feel great here. Like we got a paper out and no one will read it But I wasn't really happy about it or whatever. So you have to find a balance between yeah, you want to work hard and Being uncomfortable is important and you do want to do things just because it's not comfortable You shouldn't avoid it But at some point you have to be realistic also in being like this is not worth any Like the the amount of discomfort is worth such little gain That maybe I need to step outside here and give up that if money is the only thing I'm working for Well, that's a fucking stupid. Like don't do that. That's that's that requires a good deal of a self-awareness. There's there are Some very intelligent people out there with great information But it never gets out because they don't understand what you understand Which is I'm gonna do my I'm gonna do what I'm good at and if I want to get it out I'll have people who are good at it Help me do that part right which I think I wish more people would do because then we would get Better information that's out there because unfortunately the ones that are doing such a good job of especially in the fitness world people who do the best job of Marketing information and reaching people are putting out shit. Yeah, you know, I mean like like, you know as well as we do The vast majority of mainstream fitness information is garbage, right? Even whether it's training nutrition supplementation. It's not only is it wrong, but it's bad It's opposite of of good. Well, honestly, like if I'm being real too that that is a huge reason of why I I react like I do to things like that because whenever I see things like that like wow, how's your Your funnel set up or your trip and I'm like god like fuck you I immediately think you're trying to do some shit. That's not good And that's not totally true But the vast majority people it is like that and so I'm like I'm not playing that game Exactly like I'm not trying to just trick you into buying an extra thing so I can you know buy another another Lexus or like I'm like, ah, like don't do that. This field is this field is full of way too much of that shit It's not helping people. It's making shit worse and we're ending up in this, you know, quote unquote Like here you go chris bell like land of confusion So I'm like Yeah, like I don't want to contribute to that at all Like I wanted to be the exact opposite. That's why we made our podcast Because I'm like I want to do this shit in the middle that goes. Hey, this is all bullshit This is where we can actually land on some settle things and here's how you can approach yourself so you can actually get better Now like there's a balance again between that because if you don't have any industry here, then we can't actually progress as a field So I just don't want to contribute to noise at all in this area So I'm like I'd rather just step the hell out and not be part of it It's you have a genuine passion for what you do which I I respect and admire and I wish there were more people like you In that regard was your when you were talking earlier and talking about what drove you to learn what you did It was initially you alluded to the fact that it was to help you become a better performer and athlete You were were you also deep into the fitness industry at the time you you have a lot of knowledge about You know old school bodybuilding and that whole market. I know we talked in the past Was that something that influenced you as well early on no no like I mean I grew up in that country town And I started lifting on a universal machine that my dad bought and the concrete weights Like you guys remember those When I was 13 or something like that and that's just again because the culture I grew up in that city Like if you wanted to be good at sports, you lifted weights, right? And everyone was just kind of getting started So I started there And then you know, I went on I played college football And then we had no strength conditioning coach. We had no help there. It's like you're just on your own and so it started to build from there, but You know, I was like most of you probably were like, all right, there's a muscle and fitness magazine like all right Let's do that workout And it's like you just getting grained in that stuff and then as I as I went on through my career Like I was like, man, there's some pretty smart people that just because this book is 20 years old Maybe maybe there's some good shit there and I just started looking back and being like This is a really cool field and it's a really cool story And then especially when when I did that episode for our show We traced the history of these fields and then you started getting back and you're like Uh, it makes sense now like that'll make sense now So what were what were some of the things do you remember those times when you had some of those moments Where you were maybe following the routine of muscle and fitness and then you Read something from 30 years ago and you're like, oh, shit. They did it differently. Let me try that Oh, that works or did you have a lot of those moments? I remember myself I had a lot of those moments where I just had these realizations You know throughout my I think you know, honestly, I probably started off doing the workouts that were on the side of the machine Oh Red where you're supposed to be working. Oh, that's where I'm supposed to feel this and then this Exactly. It would be like do three of these and ten of these and Okay, like you're reading this thing as you're doing the rep and you're like, all right Like that's what I'm doing And when you're 12 or 13 or 14 like it all works, right like this is great and until you have a shoulder surgery at 15 All right, and then um, but I just like to you know, I like the the idea of Of being better than everyone else and I like the idea being like I'm gonna win because you aren't taking the time To read as much as you can to do this 5% better and I'm gonna invest that time And I'm gonna get 5% better and I'm gonna win and so I don't have any of those moments Um, so I'll really that jump to my mind, but I do remember For example going up and spending time with bill gillespie at the university of washington A legendary guy a world record holder and a lot of stuff and literally just like cold calling him out of the blue And being like, hey, can I come up and like job shadow you and he was like here He is like a world champion the head strength conditioning coach for a pack 10 school And he's like, yeah, sure come up So like I go up there and I'm walking in like oh my god the university of washington facilities And he's doing a workout and he's got a mouthpiece in and he's doing dumbbell presses with like 180 And I'm like holy shit And I'm like, okay, this is cool And that was just like a huge leap in my like you got a really like you're these magazines are not Like you got to really start paying attention to the people that really know what they're talking about And then everything from the world's strongest man on tv and you're like wait a minute like I'm not doing anything like that Okay, I could actually see and then I got exposed to weightlifting and the weightlifting really took everything off for me Weightlifting is I've said this many times on the show if you were to look at all And take like just all forms of resistance training, you know that big umbrella Including powerlifting bodybuilding what all those all of them weightlifting Olympic weightlifting in my opinion and maybe correct me if I'm wrong I think probably has the most I can't correct you bro if it's your opinion Well, I think it probably has the most science applied to it in terms of Performance with resistance training mainly because it's been an olympic sport and because it was state funded Well, it depends on what you mean by science. So in terms of like peer review publications It's it's hypertrophy by a by a landslide But in terms of science like if you look at what the russians collected in terms of that's what I mean It was oh my god No one put even remotely close to that much attention to it than weightlifting I mean when that when the soviet union, you know collapsed or whatever like it was like we just learned a whole Shit ton of oh my god. Yeah, I mean pick the name like spit out any russian name you want and they probably have a book out And it's probably like 30 years of training logs and better than so much of the stuff that we had Yeah, like so in that terms and I by the way, I do consider that to be research as well And so I would agree with you we learn what like the whole concept of periodization met vav like matt vav Like all those guys We have these concepts of periodization because of the russians. Yeah for the most part It's cliche to say but it's totally true like all those guys and you look at the contributions of rikoshanski And all these people coming over and you're like Oh Yeah, okay, like it's fair. It's a fair cliche. That's where I really first learned that You know these lifts and training was just much of learning a skill as it was just breaking muscle down and causing growth Oh, sure. Yeah, and they were experts at that they would go and lift, you know Sub, you know high intensity like moderate intensity, but just practice these movements over and over again And get really fucking good at them really strong And when I started applying those on myself on my clients It was like shit just explode and then you learn about how the central nervous system adapts and all that stuff So yeah, very very awesome stuff. Let's talk a little bit about your book What motivated you write your book unplugged which if you don't mind giving a little just kind of a rundown of what it's about And so the book is called unplugged evolved from technology to upgrade your fitness performance and consciousness And it's not an anti technology book really It's more of a book of how to appropriately use fitness technologies and how they can screw up your training actually And we don't really it's not an extensive Like here's a chapter on fitbit and here's a chapter in hrv like it's not a dive deep It's it's more of a higher level of saying it doesn't really matter what the technology is because these arguments Are going to hold the same way and I'll can I'll use some of these technologies as examples to make it easier to understand but Everything from hrv to a mirror to using your phone should you you know like any of these things? These are all technologies and sometimes they can be helpful for your fitness and your training and sometimes they can be harmful And the reason we wrote the book is to not be against those things but to simply say You need to be conscious about this approach because it can suck the training out of you And it can make you actually get worse if you're not really being aware of what's going on And that's the surface the high level reason we wrote the book Brian McKenzie who whose last book was a bestseller He started CrossFit Endurance He and I wrote the book It was our idea and mostly Brian's idea Because brian was you know He was out for a run was one of one of his athletes and the athlete was like checking his heart rate And he's like i'm 165 or whatever And brian wanted to pick up the pace and the guy was like well, you know, I can't go to 167 because i'll blow up You know, he's like what the fuck you talking about It's like we're talking right now like who cares and he's he was so worried about the data and so worried about the technology And he wasn't paying attention to his own physiology And then from my perspective I work with a lot of these companies up here in in the valley All these tech companies and these wearable emg software companies and all this fancy fitness stuff And you guys would be shocked at how inaccurate they are And so I was just getting so pissed because i'm like don't don't outsource your coaching to this technology. That's wrong Like it's fucking terrible And we got a like that's it's not telling it doesn't understand context It doesn't understand all these things so It's not that you can't use all this stuff, but you just need to be aware of what you're actually doing So that was the the basic idea of what the book is now it's it's interesting hearing this from a scientist because Here we have devices that give you or supposed to give you objective data And you're saying to go more to be also subjective in the sense of you'll pay attention to your own body Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so it's not completely be one way. I'm not going to say throw all science or technology out That's that would be a bad approach, right? But I mean pick your your favorite fitness technology doesn't matter what it is Well, let's let's talk about one of the ones that so I finished reading a book called Irresistible by Adam Attler and a lot of the stuff in there I've been told is similar to your book unplugged. They have similar ideas one of the one probably stole all the good stuff Even if he was out before so it doesn't matter. He stole it one of the things that I actually struggled with that that they said in the book Was they they weren't fans of the Fitbit at all And I highly recommend it to every client that I ever trained now I also use this as a tool to make them more aware of the things going on with their body So I coached through that. Yeah, that's the fundamental difference So I can like I'm sure you have a bunch more to add there, but I'm going to stop you right there on purpose To simply say that like that that's the key Like that's the piece that's missing though If you're just getting out the Fitbit and then collecting the data and then have an algorithm designed a program Or you let the client go by themselves because of that That's the mistake it takes that second level and that's really what we're talking about is You have to have that second level of using that technology to then enhance their own understanding Right Because if you look at simple things like I was talking to jimmy's class last night about motivation And depending on what study you look at something like 90 of people stop using their Fitbit after a few months And so does that mean don't use Fitbit or not right? No, it doesn't mean that at all No So here's an example like if you start a client off and and you ask them for example Like how physically active are you throughout the day? And they think there are seven out of 10 And you look at the Fitbit and you go dude you walked a thousand steps today And they're like shit. I mean that's a fantastic use of generating awareness generating calibration There is some um Accountability that can be held there Especially if it's like we're all three you're gonna start a new workout and we're all three gonna wear it and Like these are all good, but you have to move past that eventually You know what this reminds me of 100 reminds me of uh when people learn how to track their food And they learn how to count their calories and track their macros exactly But which is a part of awareness, especially if you don't know what's in food And but people get stuck there and then they become these iif lamb robots where that's it and they stop listening to their bodies Right and you stop right there and then because you don't even want to talk about the accuracy of those things That they're they're they're completely inaccurate But that doesn't mean you can't use them because the accuracy doesn't matter when you're just learning calibration But they're good at its consistency. That's about it. Right exactly. They're they're generally fairly reliable, right? They're consistent And so let's take advantage of the part that's good But let's not become relying upon the bad part And that's your fault as a coach if it fails because you The expert you the person they're giving fucking money to right should have known that and that's your fault That's not their fault. Oh, they got unvoted by they stopped doing the workout. Well, that's your fault That's why they're paying you right So that's just the stuff we we want to talk about is like, okay What happens with gamification? Why do they release a new app every six weeks? Why do they have a new software? Well, because they realize you're going to be bored of shit after a few weeks And you're stopped doing it I'll get you read back in by adding this new tab this new like button this new Whatever, right? And so let's say use it to our advantage is all we're saying Um, so, you know like uh, I mean go for a hundred examples, but you're getting the basic point food tracking all this stuff It's completely inaccurate for the most part. It's unusable, but it can be helpful As a certain place, but if you don't you can't match that with feeling perception So with your clients, I'm sure as they're going along. It's like, do you notice how you're feeling better? Do you notice how you're sleeping better making you're connecting the dots for them? And then they go, okay And then eventually they stop using the Fitbit or they stop caring or some may be sucked to it But that's not the only thing they're concerned Well, and I like that too because it's like you don't just demonize the company Because what they're trying to do is is keep and retain these these people to keep using them But uh, you know, they're not coming from a coaching background So, you know, that's the the the importance there is to be able to you know Take your client and lead them to this and and build that understanding there So tools can do either tools like this can either make you more aware or they can actually take you aware Excuse me. Take you away from awareness. Absolutely. So like social media is a great example I could go on social media. I'm gonna even talk about fitness here. I can go on social media And bring more awareness to what may be happening with my groups of friends What may be happening with the world, you know, all these different things or I can go in there and distract the shit out of myself And completely become unaware about what's going on. They can use it in both different ways in the same thing I see with some of these fitness tools and there's this there's this Misconception in uh in the fitness, you know world weight loss world, whatever you want to call it wellness That more information is going to solve the problem. Yeah, and good luck And we we live in the age of information. It's out there. It's all out there and it's easier to get to than ever before But I laugh because there's studies that have shown Not that we need studies as coaches. We've seen this but there are studies have shown that more information Doesn't necessarily mean anything. There's been there was a there was I don't remember what it is I got to find find it because I've I've referenced this several times But there was a I want to say a town or city that passed a law They wanted to like get everybody to lose weight. So they're like, okay. What's the problem? People eat too much. So this is what we're going to do. We're going to pass a law Uh where all restaurants and fast food places have to post In big numbers the calories of the meal And this should help because now people are going to know right now people are going to know if I eat this burger Instead of the salad. I'm eating 300 more calories. So I'm gonna lose weight. So they did this they put it out there and They found that uh, it Uh caused people to eat more calories actually studied and saw people's behaviors And found that people ate more when they were provided with this information Now why a lot of people are thinking well, why why how could that happen? Well, here's what happens If I'm going into this fast food restaurant, I really don't give a shit about losing weight It's not on my it's not my goal. It's not my I don't have the awareness about it And that's something I'm focusing on and I look up on the menu and I see You know cheeseburger, you know 400 calories double cheeseburger 600 calories. I may say to myself It's only 200 more calories. I think I'll go with that one So they're doing the opposite and this is what can happen with information. I mean, we have a story in there. Um Oh, we have a section called tool, but not taskmaster Taskmaster there you go. This is the same way Tim Ferriss wrote a section at the end Which is his like top eight ways to use tech when you're training to monitor your own training And one of his major points in there was saying like every time I've come to the wrong conclusion in my training It's because I collected too much data And that's like his point number six or something like that So there's one free before you out there and you're gonna have to buy the book to get the rest of seven Tim Ferriss exclusive, you know, it's it's what's interesting about all of this is we've all heard the terms go with your gut You know, listen your body, you know, you know, listen to your feelings And uh for a while there science said that's stupid. What do you mean go with your gut? You know, this doesn't exist but what's funny now is Studders are showing that on a subconscious level. We'll just just the brain itself It aggregates way more information than you could ever be aware of or perceive And so what you feel is a gut feeling that you may attach some kind of mysticism to in reality is your brain Nudging you to make a decision based on all this ridiculous information that you couldn't possibly even I think a new paper just came out in New Zealand looking at power lifters and they used basically It was an exercise selection study. So they chose the exercise for the day I think they kept the program about the same but they chose what exercise they got to pick So I think this is where they they had like a hinge program or something And they but they could pick whatever hinge they wanted And so they had that autonomy in that and I believe the ones that had the autonomy had a much higher success rate Strength got a much higher and there's a fine line there because you can lie to yourself And that can be abused So you don't want to just completely like throw out all technologies and like do whatever you feel like when you go to the gym That's probably a very bad approach for a lot of people But like there is something to be said for a little bit of both. I mean we have the classic mistakes that You know, my wife works in elementary school special ed and every one of her colleagues are obese, right? And every single month they do a fat loss challenge and we ever lose the most weight like wins the pot, right? And you can see where this is going like they're all hundred pounds overweight and the person who loses like two pounds wins And then that's also because like all right. Justin wins this week. He lost or this month He lost two pounds, but you two fuckers gained 12 And then next week you're next month you're going to win because you you're down two months next month But like overall the months they keep all gaining weight Like they're getting higher and they're all using Fitbit and they're like, well, I hit my 10 000 calories today All right, great. I'm going to get a donut today I'm going to get ice cream because I got my reward themselves Yeah, and you're like, this is the bad use of the technology, right? Well, so it really it's a false sense of health Do you think that's more or less? What do you think right now? Do you think more people are using it? I think more people are using it and getting more benefit Then I think these people are probably not any more people are probably using it as a start But what happens is I would say the vast majority people are getting massive improvements in their health The first three months and then after a month three or four or five or six They're right back to where they started well when you look at the motivation If if if that's true what you say then it really isn't because that's about the same pattern that somebody who New year's resolution says hey, I'm going to work out exactly and starts doing it without any tech It's they go for three months and then they fall off. It's motivation, right? It's behavior change like that It doesn't matter if that's tech or not tech If you want a sustainable pattern over time like you're going to have to create something besides Your watch it's just not working 100 and it's it's the false paradigm of motivation that we have in fitness where I need to be I need to be motivated and if I'm not motivated. I can't do it. Well behaviors Long-term behaviors don't depend on motivation. That's right at all I mean I get up in the morning and I brush my teeth. I'm not motivated to brush my teeth I'm like, fuck you. I'm gonna brush the fuck out of my I just brushed my teeth pre-workout free teeth brush Yeah, exactly It's a it's just it's just what I do Yeah, and so these behavior changes and the fact the problem is the fitness industry understands and understands the motivation factor And knows they can get people or trick them or whatever into doing something for a short period of time Absolutely, and that's easy money. The hard problem is how do we get people to change for reals permanently? And I you you've now, you know said the word awareness several times or becoming more aware And I really think that uh that that's what it's all about. But the problem is People are they're in a state of unconscious incompetence. They they don't know You know, when you tell someone listen to your body They don't even know what to listen for they don't even know what to say And then when they think about that they think about all these biohacker guys, right? Like they must know everything about their body and they're just like adding all these new technologies of their body And they're not really listening to the signals of their body Is this sort of so this book Have you like we're inspired a bit by this book by like seeing this rise of that kind of culture with the biohackers Yeah, I have to be careful on that one. Um because you have some relationships relationships Eat shit, Mike Bledsoh Calling you out, man. He's like dear friend. Oh, man. Um, we all love him. No, no, he's he's great. Um Just because like that word means different things to different people So I want to make sure at least have the same conversation You think I'm pitching about something else and I'm not like I think what those folks do is important because That's how we make progress. That's how we learn more. That is incredibly important. Someone has to be the guinea pig Yeah, like and we have learned a lot of things about Uh supplements or foods or habits that we would have never gotten if people weren't trying to hack shit So I think it is generally a good practice, but I do think that um people miss Apply how important that stuff is When it's the dime before the dollar that that's when I have a problem So it's like if you're so worried about hacking your new tropic and getting your four Sigmatic ready and you know free plug and and all this stuff ready, but it's like you haven't any vegetable in three days Right, or you didn't sleep you haven't slept like the last two days Stressed out of your mind because That's really what the book is about is saying like let's just put this stuff in the right place And make sure it's way down there if everything else and like one of the concepts that bring up in there Is understanding difference between adapting and peaking Right, so if you're peaking all the time, you're not adapting If you're constantly optimizing your sleep, you're constantly optimizing your new tropic You're constantly optimizing your coffee and all this is optimized. This is brilliant. You're never fucking adapting Because what is that application require you have to be overloaded you have to be stressed You have to be in a suboptimal position. So like one of the things I talk about is Okay, let's say you have two important business meetings And one of the days you sleep 12 hours You do all your de-stress you do your transcendental meditation and you do your cold shower and you get your anal coffee probe or whatever blitzos do That's a true story. I haven't tried that one yet. Oh, he has I believe oh man, I would have asked him that I turned water into coffee through my ass Yeah, you can ask him about that His wife actually did it too. No way. I've actually had several I've had several people DM me and be like, hey, what do you think about this like help like what's the science band? Yeah, I take coffee the other way So anyways, let's say you do that right and you have and that's what you need to do to be your creative day Or to do your hard meeting or to make your tough decision or whatever it is. It's difficult You know, like great. That's fantastic. Well, how often are you doing that same thing when you don't get that shit? Right like why can't you just show up and be like, you know what fuck that like I'm going to show up I'm tired all these things and I'm still going to perform Like you have to be able to get to that gear occasionally because if not what happens eventually all the caffeine Starts to not work as well And then the TM's not enough you got out another way and all of a sudden you're like you have a two and a half hour routine Every morning just to check your email Like now you've gotten real precious like you're a real precious soft bitch like You know what I mean like real fragile In fact, what what happens is the body does start to adapt in a sense that it tries to take You down back to your normal. That's a really good point when I look at all the biohackers There's not too many of them that I'm really scared of I don't know. I wouldn't fuck with Ben. I wouldn't fuck with greenfield greenfield He's the kind of guy. I'm still not worried about he'll rip your eyeball out. I feel like you'd be just He's an example. I was talking to him and I asked him sort of similar question He's like, I don't do all this shit all every day He's like, this is my job is to look into these things. So I experiment with these things But he's like, you think I'm lighting up all this stuff all day and like taking this every day. No, like Sometimes I go in the woods and I don't do anything for four days or whatever he does, right? And I would I don't know exactly his routine. He can speak for himself on that But I would just say like you need to be making sure you're putting yourself through Understanding do things sometimes to optimize but do sometimes to adapt and make sure you're running a balance there And you should be able to have a productive convert like one of the ones we use It's similar like a follow-up with what rob did with his Wired to eat and it's like, okay. You use that to measure you figure out which Foods you respond glucose best to okay, whatever Well, if you're having an afternoon meeting and you're like, oh, I'm sorry I'm just in a shitty attitude because like my blood sugar is low like go fuck yourself fix it then Like you're gonna let that little marker run your whole life. Oh, I'm sorry like I slept for four hours last night I'm just I'm having a bad no no you aren't like get over it Right now fix it later. We're overcoming adapt. Yeah, like let's not be so relying on our own physiology Like the hunger one is what kills me Like my body works best when I eat really frequently. All right. My wife is actually the opposite We've done a lot of testing on this. I've worked really well on a bunch of really small meals all day But sometimes I don't do that for that exact reason Like we're gonna go the opposite direction and those days when I go into class and I've got meetings all day And all this crap going on and I'm on a fast I I don't give myself the excuse to go, you know on Andy like Just don't worry about getting that today because because you're fasting today Like no, like I'm I'm expecting myself to do the exact same quality stuff not have to go back and redo my work I have a great class be super energetic and positive and give my students what they deserve In the classroom and not have a bad performance because my blood sugar is low because I haven't eaten in six hours Well, I think people forget why what why adaptation happens in the first place It's like why is your body, you know building muscle burning body fat, you know getting smarter, whatever Why is it adapting? It is responding to a stress a stress And if you take all that stress out, that's right You your body will not progress at all and I I love giving this example. I tell people look Um laying, you know work out as hard as you possibly can today and then lay in bed for a week Now you've rested and recovered and had no stress on your muscle give them all the time To build that they could possibly have and you know what will happen when you come back to your workout You're going to be weaker. You're not going to be a strong because you stayed in bed More sore because you stayed in bed the entire week from an evolutionary standpoint. I mean, this is just how our bodies evolve. So let's talk about some of the Untouchables in the fitness and health space the the things that nobody says you should ever Stress or mess with for example water intake. Let's talk about that for a second because that's a good one I'd never hear anybody no fitness coach or anybody who says Hey, every once in a while don't drink as much water or don't drink water today and see what happens Everybody's like drink all this water all the time. Let's talk about that for a second So it's this it would be the same thing. I think you can apply this well in the book Obviously we do we apply it to cold we apply it to hot. We apply it to sleep thirst hunger any stress that you can go through Focus I think you should have days where you work 16 hours a day like get after it and then have days off Right, we acknowledge it in all these other realms Right, but we don't acknowledge it in sleep like why isn't it good sometimes to do some sleep deprivation? Why not like having a hard time? I can't give you to sleep really Let's sleep for two hours three nights in a row and then tell me on that fourth day if you have a hard time going About like you're gone, right? You're gonna sleep Well, it's probably you can pick evolution you can pick whatever you want But these are all actually very natural stimuli and we don't have any real science behind Small bouts of dehydration But we didn't have any any science behind small bouts of cold exposure until 10 years ago either So we don't have a much of the but to me like it makes extremely logical sense and we don't have it with the sleep either other than the the bdns, but it's like It has to make a ton of sense and I don't know how often or how much you should do it I can I gave you like very loose recommendations in the book, but If it's been 10 years since you've ever gotten thirsty Like really thirsty That's probably a problem if you've never gotten cold in the last 12 if you haven't ever been hungry And I don't don't mean like grumbly like my stomach like on my blood blood triggered bad Like I mean really hungry nobody knows what hunger feels like everybody's nobody's gone without food for longer than 24 hours Right, I mean most people right so these are ways you actually find a lot of Connection back with your body and understanding What does it really mean to be thirsty and it's probably good to be super hydrated a lot? That's peaking though, right? That's optimized But then it's also probably good to be a little bit too hydrated occasionally where we get into problems And this is a sleep is a very good example of this Is when we our our hard days are not hard enough and our easy days are not easy enough And so we end up with this low level Underslept for a long time and we're slightly Slightly dehydrated for long periods of time And that I think is when we have problems We don't do well enough getting hydrated when we're trying to be hydrated But we also don't match that with Little short bouts of dehydration and we end up being like slightly under slept slightly overfed slightly under watered And it turns out that's not good. Do you feel do you feel most people? I say this a lot in the show are doing Doing the opposite of what they really need most for their body. For example I have found in all the clients that I've trained typically the type a high stress level clients also gravitate towards the You know stimulants the high energy You know intensity driven type workouts and then my yogi crunchy hippie stress free people That do yoga meditate Never see a pr or ever push their body. Don't you know overload for sure, right? It seems like it's the all everyone who's doing what they're doing. You need the other opposite Yeah, my friend like I won't tell too much of this story, but my friend you guys know Brett Contreras So he went he's like my fun like one of my most favorite guys ever to troll by the way He's so easy to get him all riled up Our buddy Jordan Jordan shallow just riled him up two days ago. Yeah, like he's you know, I love brace great Just if he was walking by him, you know, I'm like, I don't know if the glutes are really so important, bro Like I just step back Drop that and run. Yeah, but there's he got all riled up on the internet I don't remember what medium it was on About something and somebody else like talking back and forth and but his basic point was like Yeah, you guys are never hurting your program because you never have any overload When's the last time you got stronger like you've never added muscle mass you've never lost weight Yeah, like your shoulder mobility is great now and for nine years You've done nothing but improve your shoulder mobility and you're fat and soft and have no muscle And your heart rate's never been above like 120 except for when you do hot yoga Like so I'm with you too. Like we've got to make sure we're playing on all sides here Especially if we're talking about longevity or well-roundedness or overall health Um, yeah, you don't want to be just in one end of the spectrum We're being as amateur about that is as we have thinking that one of these things is going to take care of all of our What do you what do you think it is that that drives us like that? What makes us want to be in boxes and stick to one? I try man. It's your tribe. Yeah, that's how we survived Yeah, you know, we found people that we could stick to and then you know, I mean the number one killer I mean one of the worst Or probably worst things you could ever do if you lived in the wilderness with your hunter gather Friends or whatever was be isolated You're for sure going to die if you don't have your tribe. So it's it's just natural. In fact, if you look at, um When people list their top fears, you know, the top 10 fears that could happen, you know in life One of the top ones is public speaking and it's only because of the fear of Making a fool yourself in front of your tribe and having people shun you or whatever and being isolated So that's it just a natural tendency, but I do think What we're seeing with the connection of people worldwide is our tribes are starting to get Larger and larger whereas your tribe well, they're being defined by different things now. Yeah, that's the big thing It's no longer defined by like who lives and works on my gym Because now I can have a different tribe of liberals or the whatever this they can be and they can be completely Geography is no longer the limitation behind tribalism Um, and it's expanding, but I think a part of it also is what we talked about the beginning today is It's confusing, right? And there's all this shit and now I'm confused like wait, is yoga good for me? Is it bad for me? And then it's just you know, like I found one thing. I'm not getting hurt. I like it I'm just going to stick to that and I think that's one of the reasons and then of course you develop buy-in And you develop community in that and then you want to defend that Right and we're I think one of the real difficult parts of the internet People have is people that are not very good about separating discussion information from Wanting more benefit or success of the thing itself than the actual merit And that's sort of like I wanted to fend Mind pump media that's what I want to do because I love them and I got their shirts and everything And regardless of what they do I want to defend them and I'm more vested vested in their success than what they're actually saying And that's great for you as a company Right, but it actually it makes discussion really difficult because when you do fuck up or you say something wrong like They're defending you no matter what you do and then now I long I can't trust their their decisions anymore because I'm like you're not really Worried about that you just want to defend them at all cost and that that is a problem And that's where we have so many of these fights back and forth because of most of those fights don't matter You know the irony of that is we encourage constantly encourage our audience to question us and You know if we're going to say something that you feel you have a different opinion or if there's evidence to suggest the opposite Only because we know the long-term strategy Uh is better that way. I think if you if you build this false whatever around your you know This fake tribe or whatever you're right the second we really do fuck up which is going to happen. Everybody does We're done. Well if you build a fake facade of infallibility One crack the whole thing's gone. That's right. But if you got holes all the time everywhere, it's like, oh, that's gonna hold Yeah, trust me. We talk about how it helps that the three of us disagree on a lot and argue openly on the show I think that that is what it moves over into the forum and all of our other platforms So I think that's part of the deal too So people feel comfortable with if we challenge each other all the time on the show They feel comfortable do the same thing and I think that's probably the problem with a lot of podcast shows Or anything that we listen to that have you know one two or three or more guys that are connected is they all agree on all topics where That's part of the magic here is that we're we're three different guys that train differently eat differently and openly discuss it And everybody has an intelligent point of view. I agree and we encourage that With our audience Uh anything in the current in the your current space that is really exciting you got brought up a I don't know if I can mention a study you're going to do on kray team Or anything now that's getting you real excited. Well, you know, we have a bunch of projects going up For those of you listening, uh, about a foot and a half to my left is as my friend jimmy bagley And he's got a muscle physiology lab up here at san francisco state Which we're gonna we got to come play play Yeah, we definitely would love to check that out dude. He just built so man He's got a bunch of these uh one laser scanning confocal microscope And he's got these other local and then you just built a how big is your new gym? 2000 square feet all rigs lefting platforms all this shit like in his university. Hell. Yeah So they just opened it yesterday like we just walked in there So it's really badass. I'm like you walk down the hall and he's got barbell squat racks Hex bars, you know all this stuff and then down the hall is this laser scanning confocal microscope Or we're imaging muscle fibers at the single cell level and you're like that's that's whoa. That's a contrast Yeah, so it's really cool. So you guys can go up there and do a day up there with him sometime But we have a lot of projects that we're working on together Which are really cool We just submitted yesterday a paper from Irene Tobias my postdoc Where we actually were pretty confident now. We're finding a difference in post exercise anabolic window between the fiber types So there's a different window The length at which the the window is is extended is specific to the fiber type Interesting. What are you seeing? What are you are you notice? Is it consistent? Like guys with more slow twitch tend to respond this way more fast So the preliminary data right now suggests the slow twitch fibers have a the more traditional 30 to 60 minute post exercise window, but the fast twitch are up like two two and a half three hours Wow So that that just that'll that'll kill the post workouts, you know supplement. Yeah To build muscle Yeah slam it right after yeah, that's true Yeah, we kind of poo poo on that already because as it's splitting hairs the difference in comparison What are you noticing between the two different fibers? Is it is it is it that drastic of a difference? It is. Yeah Yeah, it's massively different But here's the key like this is another example of of you always have to use context, right? So for example, do any of you three guys work out in the morning fasted? Yeah, okay great So for you it might be really important that especially if you're a Slow twitch kind of guy you work out in the morning and you're fasted And if you're trying to optimize muscle growth, then maybe it's super important to get that meal in really quickly But the rest of you guys work out in the afternoon, right? You're then it probably doesn't matter And you're fed and all these things, right? So even with signs like that like you still have to take it and put it under context Well, how are you applying it? What are your life situations? Even if we took you against and we changed the goal I was just gonna say if his goal was to lean out you actually would probably be better off not having it Or maybe you go through periods where you're trying to optimize right maximizing muscle growth But then you go through a period where you're like let's teach the body to become more resilient And then we won't give it all the things it needs and it has to figure out ways And that's kind of like a janky way of saying what happens. I kind of skip the science there But you get the basic idea, right? And so we have to be careful with any of the signs that we do Anybody else is like it doesn't mean blanket prescription It just means okay, this is information But now you still have to think through of how you're applying it in the situation What's the goal of today this week this month? What's the client's goal? What stage are we in? What are we trying to do here? And that determines how we apply these things So giving blanket prescriptions like that are a really terrible idea context is so important Dude, you have to do you just ignore questions when people ask a question? Too long answers because there's no there's no way there is no like exact answer. Did you see my rogan episode? Every question is like I don't know. It depends man. Like what's the goal? Well, that's it are all the variables That's what we sound like when clients ask us, you know certain questions the same thing Depends is always the first answer. It's funny because you we notice these things with exercise. It's pretty easy. Like, you know What rep range builds the most muscle? Well What rep range are you in now because when we change it, you're going to get a new Yeah, you know, you get some new growth But if you were to compare head to head you got the 8 to 12 and all that stuff But we don't apply that to anything else. It's as if nutrition doesn't apply like no I'm going to keep my protein 175 grams every single day or I'm going to eat exactly, you know 10 minutes after my workout every single dot time and what ends up happening is your body becomes less efficient There's actually evidence to show with protein, for example That eating high protein all the time super frequently reduces your body's efficiency with it You actually become less sensitive to protein and we know this with hormones as well If they're elevated too long your body down regulates receptors and does all that stuff So it's a great idea. I recommend people have like low protein days I recommend people fast after the workout sometimes because I know when you then go back And eat post workout or when you go you do go back and you have a high protein all of a sudden you get this Yeah, and there's easy ways to implement this stuff We're like, you know, if I'm working with an athlete and they have multiple practices or something Well, now I'm going to have a completely different approach because they didn't in there There are six weeks out from a fight or something. Well, we need to maximize recovery. We are eating the second They get off there. I'm trying to get them to consume stuff during workouts Things like that, right? That's different than saying like I'm gonna work out really hard on a Friday But then I'm going to Napa Valley for the weekend and like I'm not gonna work out again till Wednesday Well, like you're gonna be fully recovered by that Wednesday. You don't need to maximize The signal right them. So it all depends on the context and we are by the way going tomorrow to Napa. So I'm on sabbatical guys Too hard. I want to I want to take ante to the conversation that we had Back in austin that uh, you know mysteriously disappeared Never made the light of it. Yeah No, it didn't uh They lost the fire boys over on your side over there lost the audio supposedly so Oh, you guys let them in charge of it. I know right never again that we handle this we handle this one going dog Yeah, yeah, right. He's like too much new tropics and uh supplementation over there, uh, But that was an incredible conversation It's by the way, it would not be the first time some shit like that's happened. So Oh, just bus chucking now. Yeah Fuck barbless, but that was That was such a great conversation It's not that often I feel like we bring somebody on the show And they just completely blow our mind on a topic that I feel that most of us are pretty well versed in And it was on it was the history of bodybuilding, right? Oh, yeah Is that what we got into? Yeah, we were talking about just uh, how it became popular to use Body part split routine versus the traditional full body. You know, what's funny about this shit is that it's all starting to make Full circle again. I fucking love it. Yeah, all of a sudden I see all these people been like, oh, dude If you train your muscles, uh, you know use the same volume But train them like three days a week instead of one day a week with this all that volume one day You build more muscle. We got studies supporting it and I'm like, dude, that's how people lifted Before steroids. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah Yeah, that's funny. I mean that's why we took all that time to to trace that uh episode It was really actually pretty cool because um, let's see when when were we in austin in may I think something like yeah, April or may yeah something well like two months after that I was at the nsca and I was I was getting my fellowship award and like the people that get awards at the same table And I was sitting next to this old dude And like no one's talking to him. I'm like, who the hell's this guy? What what award? I'm like if I'm at the nsca I know who you are. I'm like, I don't know who this guy is and there's this lady Sit next to him and they're like old And they started talking And I was like, wait a minute and they told me their last names and like Jan and Terry Todd and I was like Holy fuck like you guys have done all the sports history of all bodybuilding history weightlifting Like all the shit I talked about in that episode all the thing I told you about was all from their work that I was reading Oh, no way and I was like, oh my god Like I was like straight fanboy like fumbling my phone. I was like can I take like no one else knows who these people are Like they don't have but Jan, uh, I still She was telling me she's like probably 65 or something and she's still deadlifting 400 for triples. What like this is savage What did she out deadlift you Justin? She held a bunch of world records and powerlifting back in the day and he did too So they're sport historians like they trace this whole thing And their story the conversion of dr. Karpovic is where we got most of it and they had a bunch of other follow-up So I did I got a bunch of gold from them too. They have a really cool facility in Austin Uh, next time you guys if you guys go back to paleo, you guys got to go to their lab They have a huge history of bodybuilding like facility History of weightlifting this isn't at UT. How do we miss this? Oh, we're going. Yeah, we have to go. We're going I can connect you guys. Oh, we're going. Yeah, this was a fee for a long time This was like a passion of mine. I just read all the stuff and then kind of figure out like the origins of You know all these if we talked about the studies by Dr. Arthur Jones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the the nautilus. Yeah, the nautilus studies. Oh, that's right How did machines even come about and how did that all happen? So in addition to that, uh, literally yesterday the guy from men's health that was up here is Lou Shuler I don't know if you guys know but he used to work for the weeders Like he used to work from the back days like I dug a bunch of gold out of him Oh, really? Yeah It's it's an incredible story though If you understand like we did it because Part of what we were talking about earlier like one of the things that motivates me through this field is helping people Like there's nerds like us that want to dedicate our lives like diving into this shit, right? And I have fun like I love the confusion part of it, you know personally But I understand how that's extremely frustrating and unhelpful for other people Right and so I'm like I think if you can just trace the history of why things are the way they are It can relieve a lot of pressure from the other day person and they can go like oh Okay, maybe that shit doesn't matter. This is all I have to do So we traced and went back and this kind of helped people understand why the nutrition field evolved Why the supplement industry evolved and why the the exercise and I love the way thomas kuhn puts it out who's um I think it was german philosopher, but he says there's synthesis Right or there's a hypothesis right thesis and then that swings all the way the end of the pendulum which is antithesis And then I actually lands almost always back in the middle, which is synthesis And just a quick version of our of our story because it took me like 17 hours of audio to get this whole story down So I'll give the condensed version But basically what happens is the field moves along and this is can be traced through any field economics anything, right? that kuhn was pretty solid with that idea And let's just jump to arthur jones, right and it's like nautilus. Okay, great And that's fantastic. And this is how we optimize muscle growth, right? And it's pretty damn good, right you hop on a you train like that and and then you know Mentor came along and did his intensity stuff and that's fine And it was all machine based for the most part and it was our classic Muscle split, you know like delts and backs and buys Okay, great And that was fantastic and people were really happy because people gained a lot of muscle mass and you started looking like superheroes, right? And this is prior to the instagram and photoshop and like you actually physically had to look Good and it's like god you look like a fucking superhero And prior to human like anytime in human existence. You couldn't physically look like that And so we're literally seeing people. I mean like our generation like look at the bodybuilders that we grew up looking at We're like holy shit. Yeah, like these are fucking monsters. Yeah And people got that from these damn machines and you can get that right And so that was a huge thing and then but that left a space for Well, maybe this isn't great for cardiovascular health Or maybe this isn't great for Whatever other market performance, right? You're not super powerful this way. Maybe you're not a long term or whatever it is, right? And so enter this big hole. So there was their first thesis Swing the other end of the pendulum with his antithesis was like, okay now enter crossfit And crossfit's whole thing was like first of all, you're not going to be here for three and a half hours Like a bodybuilding workout takes you because you have to do 12 sets of every body part six different ways, right? And we're going to get you in and out 20 minutes or get your heart is super high You're going to lose a ton of weight and health markers are going to go way up And that's way more quote-unquote functional And that took off and people started seeing results and everyone's like, wow I can get in and out the gym in 20 minutes and I'm doing big movements and this is great And so they swung back then and said, okay, that's fantastic But before they landed on synthesis they actually went back the other direction Which is now crossfit is the only thing therefore everything from bodybuilding must be terrible And that was the problem. It's like, well, no, no, no hold on here But if you look at the crossfit culture and I think we're coming out of that right now From that culture of going like well, wait a minute My shoulder fucking hurts and my knees killing me and like I constantly have the same problem every time I do this workout Why because I refuse to do any bicep curls. Why because they're not functional But why can I never do the pull-up routine? Like why is my elbow blow up every time I do this one because you ever You ever thought about doing some bicep curls? No fucking way, bro. Not Yeah, yeah, because you have a muscle. That's somehow not functional By the way, yeah, like again and now you see them integrating that it's like well as a finisher You know, I'll do this pump routine or whatever and as a finisher, I'll give my tries and I'll pump them out and you're like Bro now now we're back to 1980. Yeah, like we're right fucking back to 1980 And and then you see that swinging. So now we've landed on synthesis, which is to say, oh, okay Maybe just running five miles a day is not the only thing that's good for me And maybe just doing an hour and a half of each body part isolated on machines Not the best thing ever and then maybe doing fucking pull-ups and squat every day That's my only thing but it's so varied and it's the same three exercises every damn time Sorry Maybe that's not the whole thing either and we land and so we swing back and forth and there's a pissing match and dick Swinging contests and eventually we just end up in the middle a little bit Which is a synthesis is saying this is a good part about this and the good part about that And this is maybe the whole of this and this is the whole of this approach And now we can actually just take and implement the pieces that we need Depending on the situation in circumstance, bro. That's that's what that's exactly what we try to do We really really try as hard as we can to do that for people to help them with that process because that pendulum It swings back and forth and it keeps swinging back and forth and I I'm going to give credit to the crossfit world No, it's fantastic. No, let me tell you why I want to give them credit because you're right They were Ridiculous in fact some of our first episodes were literally titled why mine pump doesn't crossfit because of that What you're talking about But to the to the credit of the crossfit community They seem to uh That everything can get dogmatic They reintroduce some of the most important movements that we had collected for fucking 20 years They saved fucking weightlifting for sure like not even close like this is I have 90 for one bad thing I say about crossfit at 99 good things like easy It's not but it's not even that what I'm saying is the crossfit community seems to always want to just Improve and do what's better. So they seem open They they've evolved very quickly bodybuilders have not yeah, they take a long fucking time to evolve They're very hard-headed the crossfit world tends to it looks like they tend because now I see them talking about Eating, you know certain starchy carbohydrates improve performance. Well five years ago. Yeah Five years ago. It was fucking paleo like our core and you know, but now they're talking about oh buck weed And if you eat this one eat that you know start your carbic and help and you're they're implementing different exercises and I'm seeing programming now where they're doing less of the Going to crazy fatigue with the complex olympic lifts that calls all the injury type Of stuff. So I just want to give them that credit because I like seeing that No, I would say like I'm on record years ago on radio and everything saying this about crossfit Because I actually was one of the first scientific defenders of crossfit Because I'm like you guys you can't can't blame crossfit for all the all these problems first of all The random independently like the coaching is just as bad or good depending on the person has nothing to do with the Name of crossfit etc They did they saved my sport like they saved weightlifting they they did a lot for powerlifting They got people doing big exercises. They got women squatting and they got yeah Like this is a fucking great thing like got power cleans in the vernacular like this is in the lexicon now Like this is this is good For the vast majority And then if you look in fact like most of what we do with body knowledge my co-host Kenny Cain Like he was one of the first guys I came across that was like he built this thing called context And he has this unbelievably unique effect. That's the mastery method shirt i'm wearing Like this super innovative programming style that's it's like he runs crossfit la which is the seventh or eighth ever Crossfit gym But he does this really innovative programming where it's effectively like You know if you have a month programmed out 60 of the days are built for practice 30 percent or whatever are built for competition and 10 percent are mental toughness And so he's had this model for years now when he hit like nobody gets hurt in his gym That's great man And that's like so he programs backwards things like that and people have stole that left and right and like gone on with it And i'm like but no you're right like this is you're seeing an evolution and the one thing The first thing I said positive about crossfit when it came up was I've never seen a field That is more concerned With everything else in the life Yep They are excellent at that like well, let's build a healthy lifestyle. So let's talk about your sleep. Let's talk about your hydration Let's start eating better. That's what i'm saying. Yeah, no other community has done that I'll tell you what dude because of our message because we hammered all that stuff and about the whole Athlete and looking at all these different things It's funny because we're always blown away about how large our crossfit audience is Even though our early episodes we hammered them so hard so so bad and it's because of that It's because they're always looking and I really like that about about that community Well, a lot of people a lot of people I mean, it's funny that Unless you if you're an outsider, right? You don't listen to mind pumps. Some people thought that about us But I mean we talk probably more shit about bodybuilding. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I'm an IFBB pro So it's it's not has nothing to do with with that. It's like exactly what we're talking about right now It's just challenging everything. It's helping people understand to take the good of everything everything that we've been doing since back then There's something good to take from all of it and apply to your own life and to not become Dogmatic about any of them. You'll hear me shit on science more than anybody So what I do Hey take that science throw it away. Listen to your body. Yeah, right like come on I just I think with bodybuilding in that particular sense bodybuilding's just it was Most of the information that was promoted through bodybuilding when it kind of became a thing was through the lens of Selling supplements it was these magazines that were you know these these muscle and fitness or as as we call muscle and fiction Flex, you know, whatever muscle media 2000 and iron man, which were basically designed to sell you Both the sport of bodybuilding and uh supplements. They were not designed to inform you They were never that was a big pamphlet. Sure. And so a lot of the information we've gotten from them Was through that lens, which is why it's say it stayed so stagnant for so long And then the other piece of it is when anabolic steroids came into the into the field You're talking about entirely new science and these athletes Stop progressing on their training because they were progressing with their drugs. They got really fucking smart And I'll tell you something right now if you want to talk to any athlete in the world About how to maximize and stack and take which drugs went or whatever To maximize, you know, muscle adaptation and growth Nobody comes close to a bodybuilder body I know bodybuilders are no more about hormones than More than I do than scientists in the field of hormones. Yeah, you know, in fact, I had a I had a client once who was a Endo endocrinologist. Am I saying endocrinologist? Yeah, I see a right dog makes fun of me sometimes And uh, he I was talking to him and I I know a lot about The drugs that bodybuilders use because I was a big I was just passionate about it And so I'm just I tend to obsess over shit And so I'm talking about how bodybuilders use testosterone and you know, selective estrogen receptor modulators and how they use, you know You know, uh growth hormones and peptides and insulin and what they do And he's looking at me like holy shit, man. He's like, how do you know about all the stuff? I'm like, oh, it's just fucking it's that's that's all their science went into that Hard of bodybuilding, you know, I mean bodybuilding.com. Thank you. They stopped looking at the other stuff But I am seeing now a return to The important because bodybuilding for a long time Totally ignored exercise programming It was a thing for a second and then it became everybody's routine looked the same It was just your favorite bicep exercise for so but everybody the same shit. Yeah, you're starting to get a return back to exercise programming even in bodybuilding. Did you hear that amazing interview with, um Oh, who was it? Oh, oh Dorian Yates. No, I didn't listen to oh my god. It's awesome because he basically was like, we don't know what we're doing Started taking drugs left and right Nobody knows it's true though. We'll figure it out. Yeah, it's true And it's really hard to get through so I remember coming up through the the bodybuilding circuit and I've got a lot of buddies that are pros And you know trying to get them to uh listen to me It's just impossible when you're trying to talk to somebody and and I think the part of that problem is the the aesthetic piece Right when they have built so much muscle and look so good in spite of what they're doing It's really tough to try and convince that guy like hey, you probably don't want to do this do that Because they're like, fuck you look at me, bro. You know, it's like Hey, man, when you know, when you're telling me, oh, you're telling me that a deadlift will develop my back More than you know, whatever other exercise Meanwhile, I can take insulin and take a bunch of carbs with it and gain, you know, 15 pounds in two months Like who gives a shit about deadlifts, you know, it's not that important. So but you know, I love the I love watching the evolution of Programming from bodybuilding through the lens of the markers behind it because I find it so fascinating Because you have like the weeders who really popularized body part splits It was the weeders that popularized that and they made it their thing And then they came up with these like You know the weeder principles. I don't even remember them all. I remember all those. No, absolutely not. I have no idea I remember them for sure. Do you remember they were wetter? Yeah, absolutely like the principle of pumping and the principle of whatever and that was really to sell magazines it really was and Then everybody started training that way and then arthur jones was you know, we talked about him for a second He wanted to sell nautilus equipment and the way he did it was he took a pro bodybuilder kasey kasey viator who was a massive massive 19 year old Bodybuilder who was totally deconditioned stopped working out and he said hey come in here I'm going to train you on my nautilus start taking some gear again We're going to film how much muscle you gain And then we're going to talk about the routine and he did the opposite of the weeder Which was lots of sets or whatever and he just went Go to failure as hard as possible each muscle group on these machines Before and after then you you created a new movement based behind that none of it based on Actual science. Oh, there you go. There's one of his principles the force reps principle. Oh, yeah, there you go Yeah, uh the pre exhaustion principle, you know how much I learned From these magazines muscle confusion, so you know when you see when you hear these asses talking about muscle confusion They went back and learned from the gods of marketing and bodybuilding. Absolutely. Yeah Oh, like again, you're not going to find anything new in these areas Yeah, like no way you're going to find something like p90x just came up on some brand new way to train Go fuck yourself I love hearing you say that because somebody asked me Asked me about orgs theory and they have completely built their model around the You know orange zone. Yeah, you will their target heart rate. Yeah. Oh, yeah, like that's Right, yeah, right and because they put some colors on it and then give you like a little graph Not only is that not new but that's like been shown to be so wrong so many years ago Like oh god, like I thought we were past that I literally stopped putting those slides in my classes because I'm like, all right No one even no one even knows what I'm talking about I'm breaking a myth that no one's even aware of anymore and now I got to put it back in Dude, I just seems like they need a hook so they go back and they find a term and they're like, ah Let's use that one to make a franchise. I said those guys were good at though, man Like they spent some time there leader and Hoffman were no joke in those areas. No. No, they were brilliant Uh mark they created the whole industry and then don't you have you know other people that came along We talked in our previous episode about bill phillips and sure he he talked about a genius right there with marketing He took supplements to an entirely new level And then they really broke things down and then you had dan ducane who was you know, I don't you know Dan ducane was so he was a good friends of bill phillips one of the authors of Muscle media 2000 and he was he wrote the the the steroid bible or what was it called? Do you remember that book the anabolic bible anabolic bible? I think he was one of the authors and he was like this solid No holds barred you know kind of fitness You know guru who would talk about all these secret ways that he was one of the first guys to talk about the fat burner And I know i'm getting it wrong. I think it's dnp if i'm not mistaken It's actually something that's used to make dynamite and it's this highly poisonous thing that you take Makes you sweat your dick off burn inside So people are using it. No, this is actually right now in the bodybuilding world. This is actually resurfacing right now A lot of my pro buddies are fucking around with this right now dnp. Yes. Can you look it up? I want to make sure I have it right put dnp fat burning or something like that I'm pretty sure that's man. That's funny because like those are the types of questions I'll get in class from occasion. I have no idea. They're like, what is this what you do? Like no, like no, like and they're blown away. You don't know it is Yeah, I'm like muscle physiology. Like what are you talking about? So there it is. So uh fatal Making a scary comeback. What's the name of it? If you can look up the because that's dnp obviously stands for oh wait, there it is. Yeah, there you go. So apparently you take this and you Fucking feel like you have the worst flu of your life and I'm just reading what people are writing Oh, it turns your temperature up like I mean you're you're walking around like you're in a sauna all day long Yeah, and it's horrible. How much of that is needed and it'll come on It'll literally kill you because it's that it's like you're cooking your insides to get like this slightest edge for But this is the shit that makes me rack the way I racked the marketing stuff and I'm like, uh, like I want no part This is not helpful. So so here's the thing. So, uh, we taught Sales training in for people in fitness for a long time. I did this for a very long time I would teach managers and trainers and fitness managers How to sell dmp. No not at all Swing that dmp. Let me tell you if you're gonna take a drug in these way crystal meth Crap You lose your teeth too, but that's different. So anyway, uh, I would teach them how to sell training memberships whatever and Every single time when I would talk to salespeople They'd have no problem with what I was telling them when I'd been trainers in the room I'd go to other james other gyms. I'd take trainers and then they'd be like, okay We're here for our training like cool. I'm gonna teach you guys how to sell training Everybody was like I'm not a salesman. I'm a trainer. I don't want to say it's like listen No, you aren't your sales. Well, well, listen, here's the thing and in same thing for you like you have this bad taste Sales really is nothing more than effective communication Now your experience with a lot of sales is what a lot of our experience is with Sales is there's a lot of bullshit out there. Yeah, but at the end of the day it's about being able to communicate effectively and The one of the the only ways that I can think of to beat the bad information is to sell the good information Better and so as much as we get turned off by it, we got to get good at it. Otherwise, we're gonna lose You know, we're gonna lose the battle. This is the only reason I have social media Is that this exact conversation played back three years ago or something with Doug and Mike? And they had to explain to me walk to me like why and I was like, okay Actually, I see the point now and that's why I do it and it's still like jimmy and I get a lot of The of shit either in front of our face or behind it because of how active we are and then how much stuff We take to put on there, but that was the basic point a study came out a handful of years ago that said like I think it was on average seven people Like I think on average seven people read a scientific study So you're like, okay, how much impact you're really making that when you just post studies No, just like like period if you do a study like seven people will read it Oh on average if you look at all the studies that are out there on average that study gets read by like seven people Wow all the way through. Yeah, so you're like Okay, that's definitely how much impact you're really making that's kind of kind of staying a little bit right So then it's like, okay, well, here's your option then you need to be able to take The the responsibility and the leadership to go, you know what I'm going to take that science Put it in a way that is understandable and implementable actionable for everyday people I will take that extra time because it is a huge time drain and put it out there And then actually you start get some interaction and people start to get so the real information does get through But the scientists in our case need to take the time their responsibility to go that extra step To do that or else you're just going to continue to get drowned it out in nonsense And if we aren't doing that like who's going to now there are studies that a lot of people will refer to And know about but this is because yeah the supplement makers and marketers Grab on to one piece of a study That sounds cool And they're like fuck we could sell this and then they do a great job of getting it out there It was like hey, what about that study that show that if I eat, you know, tilapia that I get this increase in proteins or whatever You know making shit up, but you get my you get the drift Yeah, yeah, like so such a high percentage of the times I've been in the media. I've been misquoted like it's just ridiculous I have like I'm very stringent about that stuff now I'm like I need to see the final version Before you're getting it clear now because so many times especially with our papers Like we did a study where we looked we're the first people to do uh look at banded deadlifts Right, so you're doing heavy with heavy banded deadlifts versus regular and it came out Uh, if I'm remembering it right, I think the the bands were better for uh power and velocity But the non-banded was better for force production And then the title was something like, you know bands don't work I was like what in the hell like this is not even remotely close to what we found or like it was some other nonsense And there was several of them that kept popping up And eventually I just like stopped chasing them down But I was like this is not even remotely close to what we found and we I even did like a little email exchange of them And they're like and then and then the thing that came out. I'm like that's not what I said That's not what I wrote like you're taking this completely out of context It's really really hard To do that and I stopped doing it eventually people always ask me like do you chase these things down? I'm like no because there's so many hundreds of them out there now I'm like that would be my whole day Like I would just be running around trying to fix all these miss quotes and and bands So I mean jimmy had a paper that just took off really big. Um, he just came out with the first You mean more than seven people read it? He was the first he did a review article on um concurrent training So you guys probably saw this paper actually or at least heard of it But he was the first review paper that came out and said actually You know we have this idea that aerobic exercise actually blocks all of your Hyper tree like your potential gains and he actually was the first one that came out And was like actually like the data doesn't show that at all So there's some context there and that took off and people because they're like aha like Concurrent training or doing both actually maybe doesn't block all of your gains So that one took off for him pretty well, but the rest of our shit nobody read Excellent. I want to hear more about that. I just say how did you set that up? Yeah, I want to hear more about that explain the um, that's a jimmy paper You're gonna have to get in front of this mic to walk or we'll give us to get the information We'll read it up. Yeah, I said I'd love to read it read more about that Yeah, I don't remember exactly what you guys did that, but yeah, you can awesome You guys can talk we'll look at them Are there um, are there any can you off the top of your head? Are there any studies you've gone into where you expected totally expected one thing? You're like, I'm gonna study this but this is gonna happen and you come out and you're like What this is the opposite of what I thought all the time. Oh, wow Yeah, I mean that's that's science like if I knew the answer we wouldn't do the study Yeah, right like there's no point in the science is the fact that you don't know what's gonna happen Can you recall any? Yeah, what's the most recent like? Well, it doesn't have to be recent but something that you learned that you're like Or a paradigm shattering What's the fucking opposite of what I thought? Well, like paradigm shattering is is pretty difficult to do with one study You know because if you find something that's counterintuitive what you thought like the first reaction is like, oh, shit Did we screw something up? Yeah, you gotta do it again Like did it get contaminated? Like did we do this wrong? Do we miss something or something wrong and you go back and you call them to the data Um one of the ones that jumped out on us maybe Uh Well the one that's jumping out to me. This is a bit of a stretch. This is quite a while ago But uh, I wasn't on this paper, but I was in the lab when I was a graduate student We worked on a study Um with a world record holder in the 100 meter hurdles and I think 60 meter hurdles Something like that and we wanted to look at fiber type and so they biopsied him and the way that fiber type works You got slow twitch and fast twitch, right? Sure, but it's actually far more complicated There's type 2a type 2b. No, this thing is 2b. Really? No. Oh, fuck. He must don't have that's a not that's like 30 year old nonsense Oh, shit. You're so far behind. Oh, I love it No, this is great. So uh, oh But what about the idea that the that slow twitch can adapt and start acting more like fast twitch and vice versa Yeah, yeah, in fact again, jimmy has done the vast majority He has a review article on this one where like it's very clear you can go from fast to slow and slow to fast Okay, like that happens in both directions and you have actually pretty extreme plasticity Um, I go through this a lot, but we've seen uh now. Does that mean that they change? For example, we know fast switch muscle fibers have the most uh propensity for hypertrophy They have the biggest potential for growth If they start if you get slow twitch to start behaving like fast, I don't know if that's necessarily fair Was that true? Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily true either really and and they're not blowing my mind today, dude The fast switch fibers aren't necessarily always bigger isler. I think you've actually shown pretty clearly They're usually about the same Depending on how you treat you guys going to do a whole episode on just like this with jimmy Uh, because yeah, he's going to just ruin you the whole day All this shit. Wow. This is fantastic. Yeah, this is what he really does. He's shaking his head. No, these are smart guys I could tell No, um, then there are a lot of inherent characteristics So the fibers for example a slow twitch fiber can get faster and it can take on faster properties It can also change to be a fast twitch fiber um Those are not those are not common. In fact, that happens like pretty regularly and the opposite. There was a paper that came out Uh a year ago that showed high fat High sugared high fat high carbohydrate diet can change fiber type Wow, and was veratrol can counteract that and we've actually just finished a couple so where's veratrol is what they have They find in red wine. Yeah, but is that high ass doses though? Or is it just like a case of wine? Okay, so it's not like i'm gonna take the supplement garbage Well, yeah, you'd have to like if you're using that excuse to drink wine any chocolate every night like It ain't gonna happen. No, okay good. I'm glad you said that. Yeah, so it's it's very very very plastic In fact, that's what jimmy and I have done more than about anybody This just makes this case for if you look at the date In fact, there was one study that came out looking at uh carbohydrate or sorry co2 concentration carbon dioxide concentrations altered fiber type So you have a lot of mechanisms. They're very very very plastic The we just finished a 10 day study where you basically put one leg up on In a cast basically for 10 days and we looked at the soleus and it looks like nothing really shook there But we see it happen as little as days sometimes a week What's the shortest one you're aware of and maybe like bed rest study like two weeks maybe Yeah, a little over two weeks fiber type changed with laying in bed for two weeks What does that change? What does that change look like from fast to slow because you're in bed? Slow to fast Same thing with aging. Well, sorry the opposite. That's your body trying to adapt to you become efficient Even though you're trying to send it an opposite signal then right but that's fucking fascinating. Wow Metabolically conservative as well energy wise and then when you get so there's a there's a faster end So you have one and two a right one being slow two a being fast right and two x are mega fast But we don't ever find two x until like you're on deathbed kind of thing Or you haven't literally have not had a muscle activated for decade Which is spinal cord injury. So yeah, which means if you're trying to activate those, you know If you have any as soon as you do anything, they're gone like they go away. They converge away Now, how do you look at them and determine? I mean, this is probably a complicated Question, but is it okay? No, we take a biopsy. Uh, so we take a muscle sample Um, we take it out and we literally you can check either of our instagrams Like we post videos this all the time like you go into the microscope with the tweezer and you just pull them out one by one And then you take each one run it through a little experiment and put it under his laser and measure it Is it oh wow fascinating. Yeah now what about let's talk about so he actually sorry like don't forget your question Oh, yeah, but he has uh, he has a really cool thing He's building right now where you he has a tiny tiny tiny force transducer And you can lay the the muscle fiber in this little tiny dish tie one end with like a rope And put the other end of the force transducer and measure exactly how much power velocity the individual fiber and the little fiber Yeah, what so jimmy's done how many of those you think you've done in your life? That's super cool Several thousand of those probably in his life Wow Now there's a lot of variables there though, right because the cns might not be firing at the same You know, yeah Well, the whole point we do it that way is to take out of the central nervous system to take out connective tissue Just muscle just look at the muscle. Yeah good. Wow. That's fascinating So let's talk about this for a second every we talk about muscle hypertrophy that terms actually people should understand muscle fibers grow That's what happened to lift weights. That's what you're looking for. What about hyperplasia? Do we have Evidence of this because I know it's been debated. I know we've seen evidence of it in animals But maybe not in humans or or what's the deal with that and hyperplasia by the way is you can explain it Well, it's so the more probably the more correct term is fiber splitting Uh, and the way you'd have one muscle fiber and it would split and become two muscle fibers So it depends on on who you ask here Uh Jimmy and I we have this secret picture that we that he got uh, he sent me one day And I'm pretty sure we see muscle fiber splitting But like for various reasons we weren't able to heap it and save it Um, so we can't do muscle with it and our friend kevin at kentucky Dispublished a paper recently showing fiber type splitting in this sort of weird animal model So I'd put it this way to summarize I guess I have no doubt in my mind that happens In humans in normal humans no doubt at all It's just the the complicated question is What takes why how it does like it takes years of training to induce it doesn't happen in probably four weeks of training Either it has to have a huge overload or it has to be a training stimulus for a very very long time Is probably what's happening And probably certain humans and bodies probably do it better than others. Well, I mean I just I would speculate to think We see this example in some of these like crazy bodybuilders. Well, so that's that's the data We have on the bodybuilders their fibers are actually really small They just have a lot more which suggests, you know, we don't have so we don't biopsy them when they're 10 and now it's hard to know but It's pretty good evidence to suggest it's probably happening and and again jim you can hop on this one But the the vast majority of the thinking here is uh, there is data out on acknowledged anabolic steroid users And it looks like they have a lot and jimmy actually his his um Specialty is the mild nuclei So the mild nuclei are what control your dna and tell your muscle to grow shrink dye and repair And an anabolic steroid used testosterone exogenous specifically can increase that number Which is what controls how much you hypertrophy So the real thing that determines how much your fiber grows is how many nuclei you have because The nuclei have a certain domain space have to do with satellite cells or is this within? Yeah, satellite cells will turn into the nuclei. Okay. Okay. And so that all influences it um And that's really one of the things thought to be the the real regulator of hypertrophy Yeah, because I would because so so you know bigger muscle fibers is great, but then the atrophy The theory goes if you get hyperplasia and you have more muscle fibers and you stop exercising You don't lose those muscle fibers. They may just atrophy or at least that's how it's sold I mean, this is your your this is jimmy's dissertation So this is his whole line of research is muscle memory. So what happens retrain detrain? Why is it easier to why is it so fast to come back the second? Don't you don't you guys all think that I mean again, we're speculating again But when I look at a bodybuilder who hasn't you know fallen off after he's done 20 years of bodybuilding like they just have a weird a different look to them They don't look like somebody who's atrophied all the way down to somebody who doesn't have a lot of muscle They have this I would bet my career that if you trained hard like that and did anabolic steroids for 20 years You're gonna go through fiber splitting. Right. It's gonna be super difficult Actually, I don't think it'd be that difficult to test if you had some funding It'd be kind of expensive, but not that difficult But I don't know how would you get approval for that? Hey, we're gonna take these subjects and put them on high doses of anabolic. Well, if they choose to do it You just do it retroactively say hey, if Amy you were doing this and rolling my study. Oh, yeah retroactive. Yeah No, you could do proactive say if you're planning on doing this, let me know I'm gonna collect your biopsy. I'm wondering if uh grow how how much uh growth hormone plays an influence Because growth hormone causes everything or most things to grow and if that would promote. Yeah, but growth hormone is not anabolic So you have to be careful there, but it does it does it change the environment to make It could certainly is related with IGF one and things like that insulin. There's a relationship there But the the exact role of growth hormone in the anabolic process, especially in endogenous concentrations is really difficult to get Um, and we actually have a paper on that we published like the the false understanding of growth hormone And what it doesn't actually do it's not an anabolic steroid Um, it's it's entirely different type of steroid. So that's not to say there's no relationship there, especially with body composition Uh, it's it activates fat It's a metabolic hormone for more than anything. Well, I know body builders will say growth hormone doesn't do anything unless you take it with a Lot of testosterone complimentary Insulin they'll play with insulin with it. So there's a relationship there, but it in itself itself I don't think there's any evidence to suggest it would activate satellite cell I don't think so. Um, that doesn't maybe just hasn't been done yet But this doesn't mean it doesn't do anything. It just doesn't do that. Okay. So, uh, We get asked this question all the time. We have a pretty solid stance on it, but I want to ask your opinion on I hope I disagree with it so much. Yeah, that's the whole opinion. I don't know Like I want to argue with you guys so bad right now. I just want some spice here. It's so boring Who did you vote for in the last election? Yeah, yeah, let's go there. Don't touch that. We're in california, bro. Yeah, don't touch that. So, uh What I was going to ask you is your opinion on, uh, these new class of drugs that are coming out selective androgen receptor Sarms. Yeah, what is your opinion on them so far? Have you looked into them enough to even have one? I don't even have a remotely educated opinion on it. Okay, so I can't speak I like you to speculate on things. You're not that You want to get some debate and have some real stuff on the wall We gotta talk some shit about stuff. We don't know Like any true person on a podcast the majority what you're talking about is supposed to be things You don't know about so exactly. This is why we podcast, right? We give relationship advice. We figure it out by the end, dude. We're talking about spirituality. Like all this shit that we don't know about. We're experts. Yeah, I don't know anything about that. Yeah, we just we tell people basically like Fucking who knows and why would you mess with anything? You don't know what the right take testosterone If you take anything because at least you know it. Yeah, like that works Pretty damn well. You've seen that. Yeah. Well, yeah I mean I go back to like the dime on a dollar on this one Like I don't deal with that because the vast majority people that I work with Don't have that option, right? Because they're they're all under USADA or WADA So like they help me at all and me personally With my website and the people I deal with those are not the conversations I want to have I want to have the conversations more that are like Again, are you having a decent relationship with your own self here? And why are you exercising and are you are you exercising? Are you sleeping like let's get that shit? And then when you get to that level like go hire somebody else like I don't want to do those things So so let's not against them like like ethically. I'm not against it at all. I just like I think that's actually cool shit I just I don't want to we agree a lot on this because Yeah, we have a very similar point of view and so I would like to hear and you probably outlined this in your book What what are the the big rocks that you like when someone asks a question like the stupid anabolic window question or something That's you know, oh, should I have 30 or 50 grams of carbs before my workout to maximum? You know I'm saying yeah before all of that bullshit. What are you telling people like, okay? Give me just depends on you know, like It depends on why they're coming to me So if it's a professional athlete versus, you know, my mom asking for advice or something These are going to be entirely well, let's let's talk about build muscle or lose fat since that's a majority of average guy Average male or female wants to either build muscle or both Most people want to have a little more muscle losing. So what I actually do a little bit different And you probably I think I explained this on the Rogan's podcast I try to do my best to communicate to that person in a way that they Like to be communicated to and I think this is one of the things that makes high level coaches Very successful if you look at guys like Brett Bartholomew and like he spends a tremendous amount of time doing things like this And I think it's very good. I just bought his book. Yeah, it's solid, right? I haven't read it yet. I'm gonna start reading conscious coaching, right? Like he could have done a little bit better job copy editing, but you know No, it's great book. Um But he takes the responsibility saying like it's my job instead of saying like this is my My way of the highway. This is how I run my ship. I get on or get off He goes, how do you like your ship run? Okay. Well, then I'll I'll I'll run the ship that way All right, and so one of the ways I do this with nutrition, especially is I like to think about people in three categories. I call them either a chef a baker or a cook And do you know the difference between cooking and baking? No, tell me Nobody knows. I know you know because you saw the episode we get baked sometimes We're on kind of guys we are in California Tell us cooking baggy tell me the difference between cooking and baking. So it's chemistry, right? So if you bake something it is very clear instructions Very clear list. You cannot deviate like you can't be like, oh, it's that quarter tablespoon or a teaspoon Okay, good point right cooking. You're kind of a little dab of this Exactly, right? So you get the analogy and so the first thing I try to do whether I physically ask that question Or if I just do something to get to that answer is I try to figure out like Well, is this person a cook or a baker? Do you want to know exact detail timing order volumes or do you want just some ideas and some concepts to work with? And then I'm going to have that discussion based on that those parameters So for example when somebody goes some people that are ocd, right? It's like, oh my gosh if they don't know like my wife when we first started I started working with her nutrition on her It was like like hold on like I get a text like you didn't you didn't specify how many almonds Was it 11 almonds or was it 12? Like I need to know is this what do you mean by handful your hand? My hand's bigger than yours. We're like what did you what? She's absolutely a baker like she wants Exact detail and she gets anxiety when she doesn't have that detail which causes her problems, right? And she's not happy. She's not comfortable. She's not sleeping. She loses confidence All these problems happen in the program and she doesn't have tremendous detail I am much more of a cook. I'm like you give me that much detail. I get anxiety I'm not bringing a scale with me at all times. I'm not going to weigh how many ounces of Cream went in there like I hate that she'd give me concepts and ideas and I want to figure out and feel things and I want to match progress to To sensation, right? So first thing I do is try to put them in a position where they succeed and then for the most part I like John Berardi's model his three-step approach Which is step number one add Add things like fixed efficiencies. Oh, you're not eating enough water You're not getting enough fiber. We're not getting enough and so the first step of the diet is adding a bunch of shit I like that. That's what Adam talks about that all the time, right? And look what happens to the relationship like that you came to me to be on a diet And you just gave me a bunch of extra shit I get I trip people out every single time I do that look at their diet for a week and I go Okay, now I want you to add this into your diet when I get, you know, oh god, it's right It's amazing right and then all of a sudden they feel better and all these things get better And they're much more excited to do a diet when they're like I get it like you're making me feel way better This is amazing. Whatever the hell you want to do now. I'll do it. I'm in So step two is take stuff away reduce things and step three is fine-tuning supplements I all this up by the but usually honestly by the time you get to step three They're gone, right, which is great. Like I get it. Yeah, they're you don't need to take off with it Which is ideal from that perspective, right? I like that. That's great the cook the cooker or analogy. Yeah, so here's the fun part What's a chef? Dude like the master then like the person who teaches all the above They know when to bake and when to cook and they can they can break the rules even now I understand the chemistry so much. I can break that rule I like that but here's the problem everybody wants to step in day one and be a chef Oh, yeah, no I want to know my chef takes years of cooking and baking before you're a chef exactly right come on years That's a great analogy So if you walk in trying to be a chef and you're worried about mixing your timing of your new tropic and everything lined up with the Now you're trying to be a chef and this is your first This is day one in sous chef school and you're gonna learn how to cut bell peppers first Spend a year so stealing this analogy and then go every we won't air this episode There goes Andy talking about my analogy That's how I like it and so the thing is that analogy extends to the rest of your life too And what I mean by that is Like when it comes to nutrition, I am absolutely a cook Like I hate all that kind of detail, but in science. I'm a massive baker And when I give public talks, I'm a baker like I want complete creative control every single would jimmy And I will spend hours going over like the final word in the document I want tremendous detail on those things when it comes to like my financing I'm like, I'm a cook just like can I just give somebody else to do it? Like I don't want detail there But when it comes to my workouts like I am now back in baker mode because this is like what I do So I'm passionate about we've been doing this our whole life, right? So I think it's it's a fine acknowledge like even if you're not it's not a good or bad like these are not These are features not bugs, right? So don't if you're like thinking I guess it's better to be a baker. It's better. No, it's not none of these are better It's just put yourself in a position to succeed and don't give yourself unrealistic expectations. Understand yourself Yeah And if you don't try and and I'll switch back and forth like one of several of my athletes I will do I'll talk to them like cooks most of the time But then when something's going wrong They want that extra little level of detail now I switch into bakery mode and I might have one conversation and we'll go into baker mode for two or three weeks We're weighing we're cutting everything we're titrating stuff out fix the problem. Okay. Cool. Now. Let's retract And I generally feel when someone starts a nutrition program Start them off like a cook Give them very few rules a couple of things get them early success They're probably then going to gravitate into baking for a little bit But cooking is far more sustainable for most of us. Oh, yeah cooking cooking is Really you become more intuitive with things I think or at least with it when you're a chef But you're absolutely right because this is true with training too like people will see the Latest technique that this athlete did where he's sprinting with a parachute and he ran this particular angle for this time And oh, he's the fastest guy in the world. That's what I'm going to do and it's like no He didn't do that for the majority of the time he trained. That's what he does now Because he's now learned how to become that chef. Yeah, exactly and you can flip back and forth between those things like so, for example, if you're Sustainability wise, I think cooking is a better approach But then if you've got a competition in six weeks or you got a bake Yeah, no, it's going to bake remote because now we've crunched down details We've we've we're really tight here And we're not wondering why we're not hitting our goal because we know like hey We're we're 28 grams of carbs too high We got to bring that down by 15 grams we're in a lifestyle that's not going to fucking matter But you're trying to get on stage or you're trying to compete with something you're trying to make weight That detail matters. It's just not sustainable for most of us for long periods of time So now we're receding go great job baking you dialed it in you got real good We got there Now let's take it back a little bit and let's make nutrition not control so much of our lives And we're just going to hit these same concepts and the diet might not change hardly at all Between those but now we've just changed the energy that we're putting into it and the way that we're approaching it So we can switch back and forth between those things. Excellent. That's an excellent analogy. I love that. That's beautiful. So Looking forward What excites you would you would you see the new frontier looking like when it comes to Well, probably the thing I'm most excited about right now Are like threefold number one the stuff jimmy and I are working on and Irene I mentioned her a little bit. She's doing some really cool studies We're trying to collect biopsies from as many people as we can at the American Open because that's in anaheim Which is like five miles from my lab. Oh, awesome. Sweet. No one's actually ever studied muscle From any elite speed or power guy or girl So we're really excited to start looking at female and Irene's doing some really crazy stuff with that That post-exercise anabolic window stuff and we want to start doing that in women Because again, we just know nothing about physiology and muscle of women So that's those those two are pretty exciting and then my website that i'm about to like officially sort of launch Which is the thing that i'm probably most passionate about Which is just a website where i'm taking All of my university lectures all this type of stuff that i've created and just throwing it up on there and it's totally free And you have a question. There's no newsletters. There's no membership. It's just like straight up free Being that you're kind of like a a cook probably most of the time with your food supplementation things like that What are some things, uh, whether it be supplementation or Hacks that you that you utilize and i know that you probably don't do anything religiously because you probably don't believe in that And i agree What are some of the things that you do find to help you? Well, honestly, like this is going to be the least sexy part because it's generally the basic stuff So, uh, with the athletes and stuff generally it is Creatine like creatine is very very effective for a lot of things jimmy just came out with the paper actually This this week this came out Looking at the cognitive benefits of creatine supplementation, especially with vegans Vegans have the biggest, uh, IQ boost with it probably because they this is that this is all on his paper Right like this is came out. It's like, yeah, like this is a problem. So the creatine is one of my go-to ones, right? If they have depending on how they eat an increasing variety of food Is often a real problem Sustainably because they get in these habits of like this work last time i'm going to do this and keep eating this for 12 years All right, probably not a great thing protein powder is depending On what they're doing our carbohydrate supplements Beta alanine caffeine like the very the very standard ones are generally I generally don't feel like I have to go much beyond the very very basic stuff Not not to say we don't Because we will but those are when the situation really demands it and we're searching for answers We're going to go looking for things like that But if I don't feel like we have to answer that question I mean I've used everything from vitamin c to iron to vitamin d like anything I'll use if the blood work or some other markers coming back and this is the problem right Zinc like all of it. I mean I've used Echinacea like you name it like I've tried it if if a situation came up right right? I mean I use vitamin. I've psoriasis. So I use vitamin d for that purpose, you know For the most part. I think we're the same way as far as how we use something like that's a good one too Because like I don't know if you saw gram closest new paper on vitamin d It's like it all turns out. We've been measuring that in the lab wrong Oh, wow So now we need to rethink all vitamin d like you could get false like the vast majority of the field All the science all the bloat behind it is all now like looks like we're measuring the wrong thing entirely You know what's interesting about this is uh, that's not to say it doesn't help your psoriasis Yeah, you know, well, it could also mean that they measure you in the normal level, but you're not necessarily get normal You don't know Or the opposite and this is why this is one of the mistakes I think western medicine made but it's starting to change is where They only look at numbers and a lot of times they ignore Symptoms so it's like well I know you have all the symptoms of low testosterone But your testosterone numbers look normal So it's not your testosterone when it could be you know, it could be receptor down regulation. It could be all kinds of things Um, so it's important to look at so I'll give you a good vitamin d example Um, I did some blood work maybe a year ago or something came back low vitamin d like all of us have right? Well, first of all, it's really difficult to figure out what that even means because low relative to what like Where are they getting these standardized numbers from they're they're not good places by the way So young healthy fit guys like us. I don't know we're supposed to be I don't know what a normal number is but it came back low. So I could have supplemented with vitamin d Instead I chose like well, where are we supposed to give vitamin d from? This to me is a signal that my lifestyle is not appropriate I need to make a lifestyle change rather than fix the the blood marker the symptom Let's fix the lifestyle go outside. I live in southern california and I have low vitamin d like that's a shame on you Yeah, yeah, right so but here's that here's why I love telling the story because The vitamin d wasn't the problem. I didn't feel tired or wasn't having a hard time growing muscle mass or have any of these problems I felt fine But I used that as a way of going. Okay. I need to get outside more So I started going outside and taking more of my calls outside and walking my dogs And I've got two shepherd mixes and that if you know anything about dogs Like they are very very smart and they require a shit ton of energy I don't have the time they need two three hours of exercise every day like to not tear up my house So they started getting an extra walk of an hour or so a day So I fixed my vitamin d great the dogs also started getting more exercise which meant I have to spend less time Specifically taking time out of my day to exercise them Which meant less shit went wrong in my house which meant more free time for my wife and I which meant We got to talk more we got to spend more time, which is always a problem in our relationship, right? Oh, and then also, you know how many ideas and problems I solved because I was out walking for an hour How many more additional conversations like all these other things happened that would have never happened if I would have just taken vitamin D That's why I think like supplements are good in a case where I need a quick fix for something or other here But the lifestyle change is where it needs to get to because all these fringe benefits that came from fixing the lifestyle That's really what happened. This is a problem. This is something they talk about in economics all the time Well, they'll say oh we passed this policy Look at these jobs that we gained and people are like well We don't know how many we would have gained without that policy for sure Or we don't know all of the unintended consequences or we don't know You know what you could have happened because of the new process They're doing just like you're you're you're explaining right now I mean, that's a brilliant way of putting it and I hope it makes sense to people Or at least it it inspires people a little bit when they're trying to solve their health problems No, that's the exact same way that I actually I remember when Sal was the one who actually shared the the Harvard study with me Of the the correlation that was found between everybody that had Psoriasis and it was like 90% had a vitamin D deficiency. So I thought well, fuck. I've never supplemented. Let me try that And I thought that's crazy No one said that to me and there was something that I ever remember very very clearly I grew up on the lake Outdoors sports everything I was outside To the point where my skin complexion is completely different than what it was when I was a child I was like dark dark all as a kid you're so much more handsome. Yeah, it was definitely knew it Now that's why you're reading you lost Then I then I right around 20 I get in the gym the gym and fitness industry And I'm working in a gym, you know eight to ten hours from morning I'm there by six seven in the morning when the sun's barely coming up And I don't see sun all day right around 24 25 years old all of a sudden psoriasis comes up in my life Never had it before didn't even know what the fuck it was when it came on And then been battling it my whole life No clue that it could be connected to vitamin d sunlight or any of those things I had a really bad realization maybe three years ago Because your first couple of years when you get a professor job like it's pretty intense in terms of workload And I was like I'm living in southern california. I was single And I'm not seeing the sun because I'm in my office before the sun comes up And I'm there until the sun goes down and I'm like it was like a crazy stretch like three months And I had not seen the sun and I was like, oh my god Like this is not this is not a good thing right but and that's a lot that the other story too is Another reason why I wrote the book. I'm like, man, we've got to figure out like these should be signs of fixing lifestyle and getting back to Physiology that's a really interesting way of fixing itself when you let it you just get out of its way Like listen to what it's telling you it's not telling you take a vitamin d stuff But look at the backlash we had on on fish oil. Oh, yeah, right? It's like I'll take 28,008 grams a day No, it's like well maybe maybe maybe we shouldn't have been doing that. That might be inflammatory It's like people wearing blue blockers at night because they're trying to stop the blue light when it's like Do you just take turn off your electronics? Maybe maybe you need to try that first Yeah, and before you go to bed. Yeah, exactly or whatever right those are classic examples of things that blue block are great, but Let's improve the lifestyle and and so the creatine example, especially for vegans and boosting their iq I use that example for vegans all the time to tell them like They see Like you can measure iq boosts with vegans for sure not always necessarily with omnivores What do you think that tells you about your diet? Yeah that you may be lacking something because you're not eating You know something that maybe we need right a b12 of a bunch other Other stuff too creatine's an interesting one though too because now they're finding It's got an interesting impact on the lydic cells. I think of the testicles and oh lydic cells Yeah, and it may have seen some interesting effects on Androgen receptor density and you know stuff like that pretty cool pretty cool stuff We've done some work on the beta adrenergic receptors I don't think we've ever done in relation to creatine, but we did that with a short term overtraining So this is like 10 straight days of doing 10 sets of one of 100 percent of your max back squat And if you didn't get a successful lift like it didn't count So you just keep okay, so you're definitely you get 10. Yeah, you short term You do it like 10 straight days or 14 straight days and then you look at beta adrenergic receptors We just published a couple of these studies recently I'm looking how those density go way down in the shortest as 10 days Wow, which is super fun. Wow. What does it mean when that density goes down? So then you're going to be let's far less sensitive to the anabolic signal Right because that's what testosterone is going to bind to in the cell and that's going to communicate then to the nucleus So that goes way down and that's I mean that's how plastic your body is like muscle just it's everything you do matters So this is similar to what we would what we kind of call the recovery trap, right? Where someone's been kind of hammering themselves so hard for so long and they just can't go in and out in and out recover You know hammer recover hammer when they're not building. They're just recovering. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just getting back damage Just getting sore and getting better. Well. Fuck man. Love having you on the show brother. It's fun It's exciting that you're right up. You're coming over here all the time from now on whenever you're listen Every time you're up here. I want you to message one of us and we'll get you on the show We could do guests. We could have a like you help You'd be great for q and a we trust you we trust you to answer questions We invite and we got the whole facility here if you you know, you talked about the business side if you help creating media You hate that side. We I love that side. So I got you. Yeah. That's what I just want to show up my shirt off looking like that guy You guys with the rest That's Sergio Olivia Adam you gotta keep your shirt on you have to go out in the sun a bit more there One of the few guys to be Arnold Schwarzenegger in bodybuilding and then Arnold beat him ever since a bunch of times A bunch of times. Yeah, he shouldn't have though. He should have beat Arnold every single time Yeah, but those pecs man. How do you say no to those Arnold pecs? That's tough to walk away powerful. Well, excellent brother. Check it out. Go to youtube subscribe to mind pump tv There's a new video every single day. Check out the one we posted today It's gonna blow your mind also mind pump media.com. That's our website go on there register for 30 days of coaching It's available for free. 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