 We were ready to lose students in planned bandits bombardment, says Kaduna State Governor Nassir El-Rufai, while sponsors of campaigns against President Mohammad Buhari have been warned to desist. And can tackling poverty and illiteracy solve the problem of insecurity in Nigeria? Well, this is Plus Politics, and I am Marianna Khan. On the rescue of the abducted Afakar students for Kaduna State, Governor Nassir El-Rufai said the plan was to attack and kill bandits, even if it meant some students would die in the process. El-Rufai said in Kaduna that the state is at war and collateral damage was a price he was willing to pay instead of ransom. And still, in the issue of security, the I Stand with Buhari hashtag group has threatened to name the sponsors of violent campaigns to bring down President Mohammad Buhari's administration and cause an ethnic war, while the group gave the sponsors a month of grace to desist from their activities or be exposed. Well, joining us to discuss this is Anne Kilbriggs and Mr. Celestin Apobari. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Thank you all for having me. All right, great. I'm going to start with you, Ms. Briggs. There's been a lot of talk about insecurity as to what needs to be done, even the government has talked tough at some point. I remember when the government came out to say they were going to bombard the bandits, they were going to do everything in their power to bring them to their knees. And months down the line, we're here again with the kidnappings not reducing people being killed every other day. And now, of course, Kaduna State is more like a hotbed of kidnapping university students. And let's not forget, the Greenfield students are still there. But then this group comes out to say that they are going to expose, more like a threat. And they're giving an ultimatum of one month for those who are trying to bring down Mr. President's government to desist. I'm trying to understand why we always come up with this threat messages or say that we are going to expose these people. Just like Governor Masawale also came out at some point and said to us that if he told us who the sponsors of these bandits were, we would be shocked. Well, shock us by bringing out the names of these people. Why do we always have to hear this? Is this some form of tactic to take our attention away from the most important thing or do they really have anything to offer us? Well, as far as I am concerned, it is always a tactic to distract Nigerians from the reality of what Nigerians face in Nigeria. If you know anybody, two people, ten people, one person that is responsible or knows somebody who is responsible or is involved in what Nigeria have endured since 2015 and even further back. I think it's about time we uphold these truths instead of threats. I don't understand. Threatening and giving an ultimatum for four weeks while people are being kidnapped, while unknown gunmen, we went from Boko Haram to Headsmen to bandits. Now we're at the stage of unknown gunmen. We have people roaming around the northern parts of Nigeria. We thought, at least I have said that if people think that this thing will not cross over to the Niger Delta, that they are fooling themselves. Well, from what we're hearing now, students were kidnapped in Adia State, I think a day or two ago. So basically, in my opinion, I would say that if you know who these people are, mention who they are. And if you don't know, then keep quiet so that Nigerians can find a way out of this. People should stop playing politics with what we are facing. And I think for El Rufai to say that he's prepared for collateral damage, I am horrified, but not surprised. I mean, are his children going to be part of this collateral damage that he's considering? And here the El Rufai, if we remember, had said when he first came to power as the governor, that he had been paying the people who were killing people in southern Kaduna. Is the same El Rufai that also called on Jonathan to resign when the Chibok girls were kidnapped in Jonathan's tenure? So these people should stop playing politics with the lives of Nigerians. And let's get down to the nitty-gritty of what is happening in Nigeria. This is unbelievable. This is just unbelievable. Mr Akbabari, let me come to you and I'm going to throw the same question to you. There's been a lot of soft landing under this administration. People voted for Mr President and the Vice President because they promised that they were going to be tough on insecurity. They were going to be tough when it comes to fighting corruption. They promised that there was going to be employment, but let's leave that aside. Let's talk about the issue of insecurity. I remember when they were talking about fighting corruption and they were saying those who stole or looted from our coffers would be given a slap on their wrist if only they would return the monies quietly. So why is there always room for soft landing, especially when it has to do with things that negates our laws? Why do we have to give room for that soft landing? Especially now that we're talking about people who are kidnapping and killing. I'd like to remind you that some of these students who were in custody had been killed. Should we be giving soft landing to whoever we think is behind this? Well, I think that it is sad. It is very, very sad that we are talking about a government that swore to protect life and property of citizens and our territorial integrity, telling us our name, our name. We don't want to know. We don't want to hear that we name. That is not your duty. Your duty is to protect me, to protect other Nigerians, to protect our properties, to protect our children in school. If a government come out to say, I know, I will talk, then the government have lost grip. Because, you know, the actions of the DSS and several other security apparatus of government, together intelligence report that citizens should not know about how to wake up in the morning. ABC has been arrested. And so something found on them that they were trying to do this and do that. We don't want to know. At best, the government is playing politics with the lives of our citizens. Because as far as I know, it does not take anything to destroy or kill these so-called Boko Haram bandit, bandit, man, whatever the answer. They are not hidden. Sheikh Gumi met with them, several people have been meeting with them. So I mean, the government should do the needful. I want to hear that 100 bandits were on a mission to kidnap people and that security agents of Nigeria caught on and got them arrested or killed. That is what I want to hear. So at best, government should stop playing politics with lives of innocent Nigerians. Anchor Briggs, now some people who were talking about the situation in the country, pundits and critics have said that maybe the government needs to get more vigilantes to deal with the situation. Creating more vigilante organizations, recruiting more and more people to aid the police and of course the joint tax force in these areas where kidnapping and banditry is holding sway. How good would the idea of, and I'm not against it by the way, I'm just saying these bandits are armed with sophisticated weapons. These are people that are very, very well armed and a vigilante might not necessarily be allowed to carry a gun. So what good does this do? They are not only very well armed, they are well trained and they are not only well armed and well trained by all accounts. If you watch war movies and stuff like that, you will see how well trained these so-called bandits are. They are terrorists. What's the meaning of bandits? These are terrorists and they've been around and in Nigeria for going to a decade now. So the reality is that in terms of the numbers of policemen or soldiers that should be in a country going by statistics of the U.N., already Nigeria is falling behind in terms of how many policemen do we have per local government, how many policemen do we have per state and so on and so forth. Now you're talking about vigilante. Vigilante in normal circumstances and situations are things that ordinarily people do for themselves if you live in an estate, if you live on a street. These are things that people get themselves involved with to give themselves extra security. Now when we say vigilante, are we saying the government should be very clear? Are we saying that Nigerians and states and local government areas and communities like maybe in my community in Abonema, maybe in my local government area, are we allowed, we should be permitted, the law permits us to protect ourselves. The law is we expect the government to protect us. They swore to protect us. Now they have failed and failed woefully. Now we have a right to protect ourselves. So now are we saying that we want to take that responsibility on? That should be up to the people. I believe that every community by now should be organizing themselves because already the threat is already here. I'm talking from the Niger Delta angle. The threat is already in the Niger Delta. It is already in river state. It is in our communities. The people, the strangers we're talking about, they're in our communities. There is also this idea that the identity registration program is also being used to register foreigners that are not Nigerians but are coming into Nigeria. And they are in every local government under the pretext or under the claim that every Nigerian has. But that is not factual. Where did you get this information from? Come on. Where did you get this information from? The NIN is only for Nigerians. I have a colleague who's from Ghana. He wasn't allowed to register. He's a foreigner. So I don't believe that that's true. I mean, we need to see the facts. I believe that it is true because anything is possible in Nigeria is a threat. And I believe that the people that do use these things for their own purposes and their own political reasons, it is possible that they do it. And I believe it. It is up to the government. It is the responsibility of the government to add a sway to allay the fears of Nigerians. I'm a Nigerian. I'm from Niger Delta. I'm from River State. I have a right to feel what I'm feeling. And I feel that there is a process where the identification registration process is being used to bring non-Nigerians into Nigeria and identify them as Nigerians for political reasons and premeditated reasons. This is my concern. Now, if I am wrong, the government has owes me a responsibility to prove to me that I am wrong. This is my concern. And so it is the responsibility of government. This is where we are today in Nigeria, where we have a government that does not tell us the truth. And therefore, we assess our own truth as we go along and take responsibility for what we believe. Okay. Let me go back to Celestina Poveri. Let's examine Governor El Rafa's statement about wanting to bombard these bandits, but then they were going to have, of course, some of these students sacrificed. But before we do that, the governor did not just stop at saying that this was the tactic or the strategy that they had in place. He went on to say that before they could finish planning, the bandits got wind of it and they moved to another location. So let's talk about the issue of moles. I mean, we're trying to deal with insecurity in the country, but there seems to be information leaking from strategy sessions to these people. And I'm not in any way also saying that sacrificing children because, of course, you have the parents of these children, on the other hand, whose shoes you would want to put yourselves in. But even if there were to be a strategy session for security reasons, the government wanted to take a position. How do you win that war against Banditry Boko Haram if we continually have information being leaked even from government house? Does this mean that maybe we're not necessarily ready to fight insecurity or we need to block holes first before we start? Well, I think I've always said that it is difficult to wake up a man who is pretending to sleep. You know, you can easily wake up somebody who is sleeping. You don't have the person at the person wakes up. But to wake up a man who is pretending to sleep. I think the Nigerian elites, those that are struggling for political power and those that are in charge, I think they are pretending to sleep on this issue of security. They know that they don't know what to do. They know exactly what to do. And that's why you are hearing this. But the statement from Air of Fire is I was disappointed when I heard that America will do anything for even a corpse, a dead corpse of an American to get the corpse of an American to do anything. And this man opened his mouth, a governor who swore to protect life and property to say that he was willing to trade. Come on. Even a drunkard would not say that. I think you were in a society where people have conscience. This man should resign the next morning because spontaneously in the 36th state of this country, people should be on the streets. We are talking about a man. Come on. He was willing. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, not from a governor. Who should be there protecting life? He is Chief Security Officer of Kaduna State. Where was he when the bandits came to take the students? It was his responsibility to protect them. So he failed in his duty. And he is now, if he's saying that he was willing to sacrifice. Is it that there is something that these people in government are not telling us? I think they are using the blood of Nigerians to serve their gods. Their gods. That's ridiculous. I think that is the only explanation. That's the only explanation you can give to a governor who is supposed to protect me, telling me that he was willing to sacrifice me. Come on. People spend money to send their children in school and stay in the comfort of the government to make that kind of statement. That is an insult on the integrity of Nigeria. It means that we want nothing in their eyes. Ankebriggs, you, at some point when the Niger Delta militancy was a thing and it was troubling the security of this country, you seemed to be part of the people who were negotiating. You were more like a go-between for the people and the federal government at the time. Now, let's look at the situation of things right now. I've spoken with several people on this issue and nobody's able to put a finger as to why there's a lot of foot dragging when it comes to dealing with this issue head on. There is, I'd like to, and I'm not in any way trying to insinuate anything, but let's take a look at what happened in Emo state and how we saw bombardment and how the army came down with all its might. Let's also talk about, you know, when we protested here in Lagos and in other places, we saw the might of the government. Why is it so difficult for our government, the same government to do the same when it comes to the issue of banditry? Let's not even talk about Boko Haram, these bandits and these kidnappers. Why is it so difficult to come down heavily on them? What's responsible for the foot dragging? First of all, the Niger Delta issue has never been the equivalent of what is going on in Nigeria. Now, it started off in the northern part of Nigeria. It is different. Now, whether it is Boko Haram, whether it is Headsmen, whether it is unknown bandits, whether it is unknown gunmen, they are all one and the same people. They are after the same thing. Boko Haram says that it is against Western education. And so the attack now is on the institution of Western education. So that's very clear. There is no politics in this as far as I'm concerned. It should be very clear to the politicians, this is the reality. Now, when you look at the issue of Headsmen, the claim of land and no land, and what the British government kept for them or didn't keep for them. I mean, the reality for us in Nigeria today is that we find ourselves in a situation with a government that is unable and unwilling, unable and unwilling, unwilling and unable to do something about the disaster that has befallen Nigeria as a country. Therefore, the fact that we have governors, we have politicians that are pretending that these things are not as bad as they are and that it is being politicized. And how can anybody in their right mind, and I don't care where that person is from, say that when people like me speak or any other person speaks against what the government is unable to do, that that means that the person is against Buhari. No, it is not about Buhari. Is it about Buhari? It's not about Buhari. It's about the people of Nigeria, the 36 states, the over 300 or so ethnic nationalities. When the Ogoni people under Ken Sarawiwa and other leadership got up and spoke about injustice, they were killed, they were slaughtered. The Ken Sarawiwa was killed. When Yoruba speak, they are arrested. When Igbo speak, they are arrested. And then you have people who keep telling us every day that they go from Boko Haram to bandits to headsmen and now unknown gunmen. Now, it means that everybody who can ferment trouble in Nigeria can now be identified as unknown. As unknown, everybody that can carry a gun is unknown. The governor himself has said that he had a meeting obviously in his office and yet the content of the meeting was leaked according to him. That's why they couldn't do what they wanted to do. And the same thing applies to the federal government of Nigeria. The federal government of Nigeria by its behavior and the way it carries on has shown very clearly that it doesn't really care about the lives of Nigeria. Forget about property. It is even people who are alive that are talking about property. We're talking about parents. I'm a mother of four. My brother Celestin here, he's a father. I mean, are you telling me that as a parent that anybody can hear what Ewu Fai said and not be offended by what he said, that he was prepared for other people's children to be sacrificed? And then you see, these are the sort of people that are in power to govern Nigeria. It really is such a shame. There is nothing like resign. We now know in Nigeria the word calling on anybody to resign, they would resign because they think they think that they are there by their own selves. If not, look at all the things they said during Jonathan's government. We can't go into that. We're almost out of time. So let me quickly just give Mr. Apobari just a few lines. We had Sheikh Gumi on our breakfast show today on Plus TV Africa. And he made a recommendation as to how to deal with this situation. I know a lot of people don't like Sheikh Gumi, but I just want to bounce this off you, Mr. Apobari. He did say that maybe we can have a ministry of nomadic affairs that this might somewhat deal with the issue of gunmen or this issue of herdsmen clashing with farmers. Yesterday on Plus TV also we talked about Goni women who are unable to go to their farms anymore because herders and their cows have been destroying their farm produce. If we do have a ministry of nomadic affairs, what good will it do for us in closing? I think it is laughable to say that because we have a ministry of education. Do we have education? We have ministry of power. They debate budgets, they present and debate budget and share the money. Do we have that nomadic? Somebody carrying stick and one carrying gun. I mean, I think that is the used joke taken too far. We should not even go there. If the national security architecture cannot deal with armsmen, with airsmen, with Boko Haram, with these killers. Would they carry gun in the ministry? We are talking about people that are very sophisticated. Have you seen them move? More than 100 eluxes were armed with multi-purpose gun mounted on it. These people are coming from Libya, from different, they are wearing trains and I think we are choking with security in this country. Well on that note, I want to say thank you to you, Mr Celestino Pobberi and Kubrig's very interesting composition. Thank you for being part of it. Thank you for having me. All right, we'll take a short break. Thank you for staying with us. When we return, we'll be discussing the solution to its security in Nigeria. As suggested by Olawakbo Hashim. Stay with us.