 and welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. Anvita is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kamasutra has to give. Welcome, Anvita. Thank you, Seema, and welcome to our podcast this week. Anvita, today's question is a rather different one. It says basically that women over 50 are made to feel like they have aging bodies, that they have unattractive bodies. And unfortunately, that is very true because I was just thinking when I read that sentence, even I get onto the rest of the question in a minute, but even if you go to the films, it's literally whenever you talk about somebody who's slightly older, taking off their clothes, the first reaction is already, did you see that body? So it is unfortunately the case that women over 50 are made to feel like they have unattractive aging bodies and that we're not even supposed to be having sex or thinking about it or enjoying it, especially if you are single. And so the question basically is, I guess to say, we've been talking about the fact that this is good for you, that it's something you should be able to enjoy for the rest of your life. How would you basically get over these hurdles to be able to get to the next step? One, I have to absolutely agree with you because there's this one. So firstly, 50 seems so young today in some way, like 50 from when you think about our parents, there's some pictures that you look at it, but people are much younger today. They dress really differently, they behave very differently. So it feels like it's a very young number, but you're absolutely right. There is definitely a myth out there that says that older you get, the less interested you must be in sex and that your body is not attractive. And they're both myths because people are attracted to each other and sexuality does not, or the need for sex and sexuality doesn't actually reduce with age. And some would say, actually it increases with age. Yeah, absolutely right. Like you were saying that actually as you get older, I've always said this, that the moment you hit menopause, somehow you get liberated. All those things that bothered you about what people would say, what people think, all that goes and along with that, your inhibitions go. So I think that there's a very good potential for women when they get to a certain age to have great sex. But I find that the biggest problem is the disapproval around you. And even though we might say, oh, it doesn't matter, what do you care what somebody's saying? It matters. It's horrible when you hear it. And I get so much abuse for literally talking about sexuality on social media from people who call me names for being old. So I'm abused for being old and talking about it. And it's not just sort of like, oh, you're so old, you shouldn't be talking about it. It's the way that they choose to address you. It is so awful. And it kind of goes from everything from saying, with a bunch of other horrible abuse of words, your old woman, what do you think you're talking about? Or, oh, this old woman really needs it. She's getting frisky or this old woman. And you can imagine how it sounds when it's said in Punjabi. Oh, this old woman really wants it. She's asking for it. Come on, I'll do this to you. I'll give you that. I mean, it's so coarse. To somebody who even said, oh, this is so disgusting. Who wants to listen to an old woman talking about her sex life? And I'm thinking, but I'm not talking about my sex life. I'm not talking about anybody's sex life. We're talking about the idea of pleasure. And I'm not talking about minds. And also, there's a million other people you can go and listen to, go and listen to them. Why do you have to come and tell me? But I've realized that this is actually what we're talking about, what this question is about, that it's not enough for them to think, well, here is an old woman who's talking about it. We don't want to listen to her. It's about how dare she talk about it. We have to shut her down. I think it is a big myth. And I have seen those messages of people trolling you and saying, and it is absolutely pathetic. And you're like, you wonder how can somebody be that disrespectful, even if it's online. But I think there is this image, especially if you think about the South Asian culture, where it's like, if you grow older, your interest in sex needs to reduce and your interest in puja part needs to increase or something. And they are mutually exclusive things in some ways. And one, they don't need to be mutually exclusive. A lot of people can be spiritual and religious and love sexuality and love sex. But also this idea that you need to close one part as if it was something bad or dirty and go to something more pure or spiritual. Once there's this idea that this was, this is not something good. And you need to close this to accept something which is not true. It's a much, you can be very religious, very pure, very spiritual and yet be very sexual. So that this idea that they need to be mutually exclusive, I think is very problematic. Do you remember that movie? I think the Hindi film, But Hai Ho, I think it was called? Yeah, yeah. Do you remember where the mother, she's got a very, very grown up son who's wanting to get married and then she gets pregnant? Yeah. And the judgment around her having sex, the problem was that they were having sex as a couple was the problem. Like the jokes were around the fact that they were still continuing to have sex. And it was as in obviously the child was not something that what would they hear from society? But a lot of comments were around the fact that they were having sex. So it literally people, it seemed like the older you get as couples, you're not having sex. And even if you think about ideas about who can enter who's room and what it is as parents grow older, the acceptance of just barging into a room is literally correlated with age in some ways. It feels like that, you know, I think. And what I want to say is that research has shown us and other things have shown us that actually sex between couples does not, yes, the frequency might reduce or whatever, but the quality of sex actually becomes better. And a lot of women will talk about how they enjoy sex way more as they get older because there's so many pressures that young women feel about like how their bodies need to be perfect, how they need to like, then everything needs to be measured and everything and that are they doing well enough? Are they sexual enough? Are they good sexual partners? Like there's just so much pressure and so much tension that as women get older, they actually feel more confident about themselves, they feel confident about their sexual abilities and they tend to enjoy sex way more because all these pressures and inhibitions have actually gone. So if you speak to older people, they might actually say that they enjoy sex way more as they grow older than when they were younger. And I would love to hear from you when you were talking about, when we talk about this acceptance of the body, I think it's as difficult for women to accept themselves as much it is that society needs to accept them. The self-acceptance I think is a long journey. You know, you're absolutely right on that. The self-acceptance is the longest of the journeys. Okay, so I find that as women get older, a lot of women actually end up not having sex. They remove it from their lives and their heads because they, I guess for a lot of them, the sexual experience has not been a good one through their life. And so when they get to a certain point, because society has this unwritten rule that you get to a certain point, it's behind you now, you shouldn't even be thinking about it. I've personally met a lot of women who are like, oh, thank God we're over it. Yeah, we don't have to worry about it because it had become mature, it had become unpleasurable. And my work has been based as you know, not on sex, but on pleasure, the idea of actually returning you to an idea of what pleasure is exclusive and outside of sex. So pleasure is not just about penetration, it's not just about having sex, but it can come from so many different ways. And I keep saying to women that we have to open up our mind to accepting that again, even if it's in a non-intimidating way. Pleasure yourself by putting lots of perfume on you and feeling really good about yourself. And I think that's where that first step always has to come from, whether it's just about feeling good with perfume, putting perfume or when you dress up or whether it's actually having a sexual relationship. I think it all has to begin here in the brain first. Yeah, I totally hear you because I think you have to the, as you get older, it needs to be you want pleasure because you're absolutely right. If you see it as a chore and it is something that you're doing for somebody else, then the faster you can get out of it, the easier it's going to be. So it has to be a starting point where you say, I feel like having sex and I am feeling sexual and I want to have sex. Only when you want to have sex or you are interested in your sexual pleasure, will you start like you're saying, maybe feeling sexy, looking sexy, engaging in any sexual relationship with somebody else. So it needs to come first from within that you wanted and you're interested in it and how do you make yourself feel like I want to experience this pleasure and what will make me feel good about myself. And when all of that starts is when you can engage with a partner and share a sexual bond with them. So I do think that that's acceptance of self-pleasure is the first step. And of course, the next will have to be breaking down all of the trolling that comes at you from outside, not necessarily online, but from the society around you from your friends, because there will always be somebody out there ready to point out the fact that you're of a certain age and how dare you be thinking about this. And I think that's the next thing. It's to actually see when you come to an understanding of yourself pleasure and you realize that it's something that you really want. And I'm sure you're gonna tell us in a minute that it's also quite good for us, isn't it? As we get older, there's a lot of health benefits from sex as you get older in life. But yeah, there's a lot of breaking down of problems and boundaries and walls that are put up by people around you just to be able to enjoy the most basic thing. Yeah, and I think women don't stop doing a lot of other things. It is the messaging that we receive. So it's not like they will say, oh, I should stop buying jewelry or clothes or being interested in things and everything. But there is a message that is given is that your interest in sex should start reducing after an age, which, and once again, it's got to do with, and then I don't want to go back to the ideas of patriarchy or whatever, but it is seeped in the ideas of reproduction and sex being something that women do only to produce children. So once the producing age child is ended, then what is the need for women to have sex and be interested in sex? Because that's not something women need, want, are interested in, it's just, they are just reproduction machines. So once that production line is ended, what is the need? So there has to be an owning of saying, I like sex, I'm interested in sex and I want that feeling. I want to, you know, feel that feeling. And that's why I'm interested. And if you don't start breaking those ideas, then you will internalize those messages and start believing like, oh, yeah, I don't want it. I'm not interested in it. Why am I interested in sex? So I think there's some self-searching soul that is important. What about if you're single like this lady says? I think if you're single, it is, I will appreciate that it is more complicated and it's more difficult than somebody younger being single. And I know that it is, we, I have so many friends who are now single in India and they didn't get married and they're in their 40s or late 30s. And it's a huge problem. And so many of them consider coming abroad because it's still easier to date someone at an older age. So I really think that culture needs to end in India where this idea that if you're older and single, you can't date or you can't, you know, find a boyfriend or girlfriend at that age. Like that for me is very problematic. So I hope that culture is changing and is changed and there is. But what I think is also more complicated is that if you have been in a relationship for a very long time and it has ended, you know, and now you've become single, also the rules of engagement have changed. You know, what might have been traditions of dating initially are different now. So maybe initially you got introduced by friends or you went to a party, you met somebody or it was like friends, friends or a wedding or things like that. And now a lot of it might be online dating. So it is a new way of doing things and you have to be open to doing that new way of doing it. But it can be intimidating. Like it can be intimidating about how do you do a dating profile? What is the swipe right, swipe left? Can I meet a stranger? It's very odd to like people find it difficult to write little gloves about themselves. So all those things I think are very alien. They're very alien territory. And it can be quite complicated for people who have not been used to it. And also the pressure like, it's also could be very difficult to ask for help because people might turn around and say, at this age, why do you need to date someone? You know, like aren't friends or you must be looking for a companion. I feel like always the thing is you're looking for a companion, right? Like companionship or friendship is important right now rather than actually wanting a relationship or romantic relationship as you grow older. And is there any kind of advice that you can actually give to women? Let's go back to the earlier part of the question that, you know, how do you deal with this idea that as your body gets older, whatever it is, it is going to be a little bit more unattractive in your own head, if not in somebody else's head. Or, you know, I guess the word that most people use is the loose body, you know, it's like not as tight and firm. It's a natural progression of life. That's what it's going to be like by a certain age. But I think people, women, particularly are made to feel very conscious of it. So is there something that we can suggest? Well, one, like we're saying self-acceptance because there are, when we think about media and we think about images, what we always need to remember and there are some amazing documentaries and movies around this idea is that media is made for men, buy men to deliver to men, right? So everything that is shown is created by men. It is made for men and the audience is men. And that is also a male audience of like the spending audience which is like 18 to 45 or, you know, thing. And what happens with that is those ideas are promoted again and again, if we think about it. So the idea is that men like younger women, younger women are more beautiful. Ideas of beauty are connected with younger women like you're saying. So somewhere we need to accept that if we keep comparing with a younger body, it's not going to help. It is natural, it is normal as life and there is more to you than your body in some ways. And if you're attractive, your body is attractive. Like it's how you think about yourself and how. There are enough young women who don't find themselves attractive and they could have as tight skin as you want to call it or a wrinkle-free skin if that is what we are calling it. So it is about self-belief, I think. And that you have more to offer, a lot more to offer also besides your body in some ways, you know, your personality, your confidence, your ease, there is a lot maybe there's less drama now, it's more like content, it's peaceful, people don't need to like be all over or fool you and they're no tantrums or something. There'll be so many positive things if you want to start looking. And I'm using stereotypes right now, but what I'm saying is that there might be so many positive things that people might be looking for and you might have to offer or share. So don't put yourself down. I think women put themselves down very easily. Don't put yourself down, believe in yourself, believe you have a lot to share and offer and people will see that, you know, people will enjoy that. Okay, so shifting it from the emotional side because that's always a little bit more difficult to come to grips with and not necessarily something that women will even accomplish by the end of it. But let's try a slightly different argument. Medically, is it beneficial to be having sex as you get older? Absolutely, as in we've said that when we've spoken about men, it stays true for women. Like there's huge impact on your stress levels, it reduces your stress level, blood pressure, cardiovascular diseases, all of those are, you know, beneficial in some ways if you're having sex and that stays true. There is other complications, like we have to accept that, that if menopause is hitting, that is a big change in women and they have to go and experience a lot between the hot flashes or lack of lubrication in the vagina and other things, but all of these things can be managed. So go seek medical health around it and be more proactive around it. What we've also learned is that people don't talk about menopause and you and I, and it can be a separate session, but you and I maybe should do a session on menopause because it is a topic that has very little investment in, people are not interested in it. The doctors are not as knowledgeable about it. So you have to go searching for somebody who can tell you about menopause. And one thing I do want to share with you and say is the symptoms of menopause a lot of times confused with depression and many women get prescribed antidepressants because they go and say, I'm having mood swings, I feel very depressed sometimes, I'm feeling very low, I'm feeling lack of energy and everything and they get diagnosed with having depression and actually it is menopause. So we know menopause is there and also risk of breast cancer and cervical cancer also increases when you're over 50. So please go get your mammograms and your pap smears and do it regularly because the risk does increase. It does, but in any way does any of this get impacted by if you're active sexually? Do you think that there might be a beneficial impact on any of these things? Like we say for men that their risk of prostate cancer goes down if they are active. So is there some kind of health benefit aside from depression? It's a good question. I don't know the answer. I will definitely research it and check it and get back if there is, I don't know. I do know that there are a lot of, the health benefits are absolutely there because people feel happier and they feel in a better mood when they experience pleasure. So all those correlations of- Absolutely. And of course the moment you have, or the moment you orgasm or the moment you have pleasure your metabolism increases, your blood rate, your blood circulation gets better, your heart rate increases. So all that is bound to be good for you, right? Absolutely. As in sex is healthy for you, it is good for you and it definitely has a positive impact on yourself. And the idea that you are somebody who's sexually active and enjoying and engaging with pleasure itself needs to have a rebound effect on your self-confidence and how you feel about yourself. Because in some ways, if it's playing on your mind that I shouldn't be having sex or I'm not good enough to have my sex or my body's not good enough or I'm now not desirable enough, then that obviously plays on your self-esteem and self-worthiness. So the more you engage is also reflecting on your robustness, that how you're feeling about yourself. You know what? I have to agree. I find that as women get older and in the older women, the ones who choose to stay sexually active, who desire it and do it are actually a lot more binless. You know, they're a lot more chilled out. They're a lot more, there's a very big difference in the energy that they put out. I've noticed that. And I find in women, in older women who are sexually active or forget sexually active, who are actually aware of their pleasure, who are happy to explore their own pleasure, whatever way that might be, I find that their creative instincts stay higher for longer. And I think there's a great deal to be said about that. And I think what you're saying also is that if there is a sexual energy, it might or might not result in having an orgasm or it might not end up in sex. But there are other ways to engage with your sexual energy where it might be self-pleasure or other creative ways of channeling it. And the other thing I want to say about all the couples having sex, it also seems like the pressure of orgasming reduces as well. You know, there's this pressure with the younger people about, oh, I need to make my partner orgasm or I need to orgasm or everything. One, men tend to last longer if they are older. It's because they don't come ejaculate so quickly, which gives a longer time for a woman to orgasm, but the pleasure stays for longer. But also this pressure that, oh, I need to now orgasm or the man needs to orgasm, it needs to happen within a time and how is it taking so long and all of that? That seems to reduce in couples as well. So there's enjoyment in the foreplay, the cuddling, the kissing, the hugging, the intimacy, the comfort is there. And many times this whole idea of, oh, I need to orgasm and that's the ultimate pleasure also reduces. So the whole sexual act is more enjoyable. You know how you were saying earlier about how there is this thing about a lot of men will go for younger women. And so a lot of women I've spoken to, older women, will say, well, even if we did want to be with somebody, the guys of our age are going for much younger women, which is just, unfortunately, there's a lot of truth to that. So either women of 50 are looking at much older men. I mean like much, much older because for that much older man, a woman of 50 is that much younger. So it kind of makes sense, which is also not very pleasurable for the woman. I mean, you know, the woman is then having to say, oh my God, I'm going to be with somebody who's that much older or there are the much younger guys who are going through this thing of being interested in the older women, which is sometimes great because it's a natural sort of thing. And sometimes it's more manufactured because as we've said before, that younger guys seem to think that older women maybe don't have so many inhibitions and hence they make easier partners because they don't have to commit to them. So I do think that women, when they get to a certain age, especially if they're older, face so many more obstacles because as it is you're feeling terrible about yourself, you're feeling insecure about how you look, then there is this issue of guys saying, no, no, we want much younger women or whatever. So many barriers to overcome. So as we bring the conversation to an end, is there some kind of advice that you'd like to leave the ladies with to say how to move forward? Yeah, and we've said that before with younger men, just make sure that it's not like that. It's not like, oh, this is easier. You're compromising in some ways because that's what's available and they are just interested in sex and you want much more. Sometimes that happens, not always. I don't want to make a generalised statement like that. I, as in, I think, fortunately, unfortunately, other society we need to change where we don't like go into these traps of only what men are looking for, like younger women and everything. When we start breaking all these ideas of what is beautiful and what is being sold to us is beautiful and what is important in sexuality. So even this idea that in sexuality, what's important is beauty is also a myth, right? Like, who decides who's beautiful and what happens and is it true that every model or every pageant is a great sexual partner? I'm not sure. I'm sure that's a stereotype as well there in some ways. So will it be nice? Do you feel more confident or intimate or with somebody who's kind and gentle and loving towards you than somebody who puts you down but it might be gorgeous? Like, you know, so I do think that there are a lot of myths in the society or assumptions in the society that we need to break. And older women do feel a lot of discrimination and prejudice. They do. It's not easy. I am empathising because there are assumptions made about you. You're told you can and cannot do this. You can dress this way or can't. Like, why will you wear such bright colours? You need to change what you wear, how you dress. This is not appropriate. That's not appropriate. So I think really deciding what you want and what feels good to you. Like, if you like bright colours, go for it. If you feel like a kid's becoming too much, like fine. So I think little bit of once you own yourself, once you own what you like, it will make it much easier. It will make it like you're saying you can get a little bit of that bindas into you. Otherwise, you're just going to find barriers after barrier as you grow older as a woman because people are just going to tell you what you can't do and you kind of maybe have to find your way and find friends who are willing to, you know, join you in this journey rather than put you down and lose friends who put you down or question how you look or what you are. So, yeah, I think these are some just thoughts. That's great, Anvita. Thank you. And you know something, I just want to mention at the end of the program that this is not a one-off. You and I are talking about this, but as we know, somebody's just made a documentary. They came and spoke to me about as women get older, how they start to feel more invisible, you know, what can a woman do to stay visible. And a little later in the year, I'm part of the panel on the British Medical Association, the British Science Association panel, actually, where I'll be talking with Dr. Lee Smith, whose research is on sex in people as they get older and the health benefits of sex in people as they get older. So there's a lot of conversation around it, which is fantastic. And I'm glad that it's becoming bigger at the moment. It's still within the scientific communities. It's still within these kind of panels, but I just hope that this permeates outwards and into society. And we start breaking down some of these taboos because they're just so unnecessary. Yeah, and before we end, you know, we've obviously done a whole session on lubrication, but just a shout out, use the lube, menopause, you know, just leads to dryness, extra dryness, don't feel shy about it. It's your best friend. And, you know, you just have to manage things. It doesn't mean it's the end of the road. It just means you need to get creative and manage and get fine solutions for it. Yes, I'm so pleased you mentioned that because with menopause comes something called hormonal dehydration. So it can cause dryness in every part of you from getting constipated regularly to having a dry throat, to being able to not breathe so well. Your breathing becomes problematic. And yes, lube is one of the most important things. So go and get yourself some really, really good lube because, and lots of it, not just a little bit, don't sort of say, oh, a little bit will do lots of it. Splash out. Well, I certainly hope that this has helped everybody listening and I really, really hope that people will take it on board because I do believe that there are certain benefits to opening up your channels of pleasure in whichever way you choose to open them. Whether you go all the way down the path of sex or just a lot of other things along the way, but the channels of pleasure are connected to your entire energy inside your body. So please do open up those channels, experiment with your pleasure in whichever way that you want to, but give yourself a chance. And if you've enjoyed the video, please do comment, like, subscribe. We always love hearing from you. If you have any more questions, I am on info.seema.anand at gmail.com. And if you need any actual consultation or therapy, as we've said before, this is a generic answer to the questions. If you need specific answers, then please do get in touch with Anvitha at... Anvitha.medanvehel at gmail.com. But as Anvitha always says, you'll find it in the description. So don't worry if you don't know what the spelling is, et cetera, you'll find it all over there. I hope that you're all taken care of yourselves through this second wave. Stay well, look after yourselves, and we will see you next week. See you next time.