 Boom, what's up, everyone? Welcome to Simulation. I'm your host, Alan Sockian. Very excited to still be at COFA as the Congress on the Future of Engineering Software for our second annual partnership with them. We are now sitting down with Karen Caswelch and Dr. Praveen Yadav. Hello. Thank you for coming on to the show. Hi, how are you? We're very excited. We're very excited. Thank you. Yes, yes. There's so much to talk about with generative design and what you guys are doing with CyArt software. We're really excited to unpack that. For those that don't know, Praveen has been doing, he's been working his way up to co-founder and CTO role at CyArt software three and a half years. Karen has been over a year now working her way up into the CEO role and CyArt's doing awesome work. We're going to be unpacking that and what generative design actually means. Before we get there, let's learn about your journeys. How did you guys get excited about engineering software and teach us about your journey leading up to this point? I'll go first. Why I am doing the engineering software? I started my career as a suspension designer for Tata Motors. This was back in 2007, July of 2007. My problem with being a designer was there weren't any tools that would allow me to perform analysis, upfront analysis on the designs that I wanted to create for the vehicles that we were designing. As expected, my daily life was a lot of hitting dead ends without knowing how to overcome them. There was a separate analysis group that I had to communicate with to help me out with my design process. I quit my job. I wanted to be an analyst because I like their job better than my job. I came to University of Wisconsin to pursue my graduate studies specifically to understand the simulation engineering. About six and a half years into my PhD program, we created something that I thought would be a very useful tool to the design engineer who quit his job to come to grad school. That's how I got involved in the CyArt software business. I have a slightly different career path. I have a mechanical engineering degree. I wanted to change manufacturing. That was my underlying, I want to change manufacturing and make it successful in the United States. I went to General Motors and I was at GM for 24 years, mostly in the manufacturing side. I ran a chassis shift at a GM truck plant. I went to Asia and then I was VP of Purchasing for Allison Transmission. About 10 years ago, I moved on from GM and ended up running a software company and started getting exposed to engineering software. This was supply chain product costing software, but it did interact on the engineering side. I have now been a member of, I've run or been number two in charge of four, five different startups. About a year, year and a half ago, Praveen reached out and we started talking to each other. I was really interested in how to design for the future. I think generative design is really a key for the future, whether it's for additive manufacturing or traditional manufacturing. I was so intrigued with what CyArt was doing that I wanted to come and be a part of the company and the journey. Oh man, the origin stories are always very interesting. There's so many years of experience with your background, 25 years or something of experience. That's amazing and that's a lot to actually be able to go and see all the processes and also know the importance of what you're working on now. Praveen, I also really enjoyed how when you actually do have this really serious problem and you know that something needs to fill the role and then to be able to build it and go and bring it into the world. So now let's talk about this. Alright, we find ourselves as probably manufacturing, like on a big history perspective, manufacturing now more than ever. We're just producing so many different complex goods. We're designing them, we're engineering them all the way this product life cycle management, all the way from idea until it's disposable or recycling. So as a designer is figuring out how to take an idea and actually make it in the most effective way, what does this look like when you're using CAD and you're using all these different tools to try and like simulate adding doing this generative design, running what it would be like if it had this or if it didn't have that, what the cost does, how the all the different engineering variables, how those get tweaked. Teach us about this on an abstract level. So from engineering perspective, like when I was designing in CAD, the objective always was to sort of design parts that meet the basic specification of functionalities. So the basic specification of functionality for a suspension for example would be, take an example of lower control arm, should be it should run at least 100,000 miles with certain specification or load cycles. So that was the engineering challenge that I was trying to solve and I'm using a very specific example but it is scalable to any engineering design problem. How do I solve that challenge? Well, I design a part basically that fits within the specification of the loading parameters and then the next challenge is how do I make it cost efficient? So I have to remove material so that it can be made with the lightest possible weight. It can be made of the lightest possible weight that still meets all the engineering specification of running 100,000 cycles through different loading parameters. That's just the engineering challenge of it. Then there is supply chain challenge of it is how do I sort of manufacture that part repeatedly for say 300 or 30,000 vehicles that are going to be manufactured every month. So then there is a manufacturing cost aspect to it. Then there is the assembly. Is this design made for assembly where a line personnel can take this part and sort of fit it into the vehicle easily. Then you have to sort of understand the challenges of replacing it in field if there ever occurs a situation where this part is under failure and it has to be replaced. So that all of these support, maintenance, costing aspects have to be sort of considered during the design process, early stage design process as early as possible so that you don't have to redesign parts further down into the life cycle of the product. So that's those are the challenges that I wanted to sort of conquer so to speak for lack of a better term. As quickly as possible as early as possible so that I don't there is minimum amount of rework required later in the validation stage. But as we said like there aren't sort of tools baked into which will sort of generate those design sort of what you might say options opportunities will give me sort of what different kind of designs look like if you have different kind of challenges and that lack of that tool kind of sort of brought me to this long arduous journey that we've sort of that has pretty much shaped my entire adult life so to speak. Now okay so when you when you when you're explaining this this this you know it almost it almost hurts a designer or engineer when something so far down the road ends up yeah and you have to you know redesign it to and you're giving this example of like something like maintenance is it easy to maintain is it easy to access in the assembly process all these questions can it actually hit these milestones that you're looking to have it hit at the lowest weight and in the supply all the variables of the supply chain so then how does with all these variables at in during to compute how does how does the sire how do you how does your software then make all of these kind of like simulations all these computes for possibilities and then see which ones are the best ones. I'm gonna I'm gonna start by saying we're not doing all of that right now so we're starting at the very beginning of that journey so that is the end we're starting right now at the very beginning which is how do you design a part that that in fact how does a a an an engineer with an undergraduate education who's less than a year from graduation sit down at his or her desk and design a part that has a very good chance of being successful all the way through the validation process so that's the problem that we're solving right now and as we evaluated and looked at all the tools out there most of them need more than a bachelor's degree to actually use they're very expensive and they're not integrated with the main tool that that design engineer uses which is his cad program so the cat the design engineer sitting at the cad program and you want them to be able to generate ideas that have a much better chance of being successful because every iteration takes time and it's very expensive and so that you you want that design engineer to be able to explore options very early in the process while they're inside their cad program so they're not going back and forth between different programs and that's the problem we're trying to solve do you want to that is an accurate assessment that yes we're not trying to solve the entire sort of value uh not today not today version one version one is not solving the entire sort of value chain and sort of bringing everything into the sort of design space exploration we are specifically focused on some of the early stage sort of design exploration parameters so functionality is the key parameter to a certain degree manufacturability is another parameter assembly is not sort of been sort of used as a parameter yet costing of what features to sort of replace ad is not sort of manufacturing costing is not used as a parameter yet but sort of functionality based on sort of stiffnesses strengths frequencies part consolidation that is baked into our software as of today and and the idea is sort of take all of those sort of parameters functionalities and constraints and provide a range of designs like not just one design like options you if you take all of those sort of parameters and give you just one design that's not really giving you options like that's just telling you well i think this design is good enough that might still fail at validation but that's kind of sort of is is sort of not it's better than not using it at all but still not sort of there from an early stage design concept perspective so we're trying to sort of provide multiple designs each of which meet all of your constraints to a different degree where now the engineers can make those decisions based on if one out of ten part fails the validation test there are still nine other options for you to try which was still developed early enough that you don't have to repeat the process sequentially okay let me see let me see what i can do here so we take a a tool manufacturer tool that can then make it easier for young people with just a pretty solid couple years of of engineering experience to be able to then go and and design multiple iterations of a news your platform for the generative design with you then have multiple they have multiple iterations let's say 10 of these and so now do they do they when they when so this is this this works directly with their CAD tool okay and then when when they're let's take let's take a part what's a common part for is it mostly automotive is a common one or or a different assembly robot or maybe an aero so let's make it easy okay it can be an automotive part performance performance powertrain or performance vehicle so think think motorcycles race cars defense aerospace and even handheld tools you know it matters how like a drill it matters how heavy it is so uh but but to make it easy let's talk about a bracket okay okay and let's talk about something that people can kind of almost visualize the bracket that attaches an airplane seat to the floor okay so let's just use that as as our example okay now yes okay okay okay so we take this this bracket that attaches the airplane seat to the floor and now we're basically we're trying to iterate on that to make it more efficient more cost efficient potentially source the materials from safer and more ecologically friendly ways all these different sorts of make the supply chain easier so so then when we when we when we have a student that's using CAD and using your generative design software as well then they get the they sort of make a first do they sort of make a first bracket an L bracket and then they kind of see how you help them with the other nine options and they kind of get to see that and then tweak it together so you have this seat bracket okay and what do you want as the passenger you want to know in a really hard you know slowdown of that airplane or a really hard acceleration that the the bracket is going to hold tight okay and so there are forces there's you have to meet a certain you know like if you have a really heavy passenger you don't want the bracket to break so there's weight forces there's acceleration forces there's all kinds of forces that that bracket has to withstand and in the space and then you've got the space so what our software allows you to do is create here's the maximum space here's all the attachment points okay and here's all the forces that it needs to withstand and then you hit a button and say go okay like like literally yeah okay so you have the space you have the attachment locations and you have the forces at play and then you hit a button and then it simulates out all of the different ways that it could support that those forces and those attachment points and with different materials so you're simulating out different materials so so you do select the material right so but but you can just once you have all the force you can rerun it with three or four different materials if you want so you can explore materials and and the design will look different depending on what kind of material you use so so that will give you a complete freedom design and when i say freedom i'm talking about manufacturing freedom and so that in general will give you a design that needs to be additively manufactured okay so here's the thing over 90 percent of over 95 percent of all manufacturing is still traditionally manufactured so we also allow you to put in a constraint that says i have to be able to forge or cast this design so that you actually can put in manufacturing constraints rather than just i have this really cool additive additive part that has to run on an additive manufacturing machine now typically those manufacturing constraints will make it heavier but will be a lot less expensive so in today's world we're we're giving that engineer the chance to select is it you know do you want to put a manufacturing constraint in or not in the future if we start rolling in this is what a cost additively manufacture it this is what would cost to to traditionally manufacture it then it's very likely that's a software will that you can also then put in that cost constraint and can generate here's the lowest cost the lowest cost you know aligned with the lowest weight but we're not we're not at that point yet yeah that's that sounds like a very interesting a way to be able to add a you know to if you're doing additive manufacturing you're you're able to save so much on on on on like an ecological standpoint and and on a you know on a waste standpoint and all this other kind of good stuff so adding that to the equation sounds really important now what if you if you walk us through this this example after they've after they've went and added all the constraints and they've and they've went and simulated out and maybe they've played at different materials they've simulated out again what would what would one do with those these are now they have different CAD files and then what would they do with those would they try and would they would they a they will have learned obviously quite a bit on the different permutations that could exist to fill the same need and then are they kind of trying to maybe use that in order to say you know hey Boeing I have a a pretty good way of of looking at your bracket that connects the seat to the to the floor of the plane and and because of that maybe I can get work with you or yeah what what would they do kind of in the in the next steps well it would have certainly made my life easier but yes like so it kind of sort of enhances their capability to sort of make design decision early stage without relying on an expert analysis team to sort of validate whether the designs are a go or no go at the very fundamental level you want to figure out whether these designs are going to work or not work validation right away yes so the early stage design concepts so when we say we want to generate smarter early stage design concepts we want to eliminate all the bad designs that are guaranteed not to pass validation and then we want to create enough options to explore the validation step with the expert analysis team the expert analysis team is going to do a much more sort of involved model-based system engineering analysis to make sure that everything works just fine they'll have far fewer sort of concepts to play with which are at least at the base level guaranteed to sort of pass the functionality test yeah that's that's very very beautifully explained just that if you get validated as well at your first rid of all of the bad designs that aren't actually going to work in the physical in the physical reality that that's very very important saves lots of time lots of resources it get actually like we were explaining just the learning the learning side of it is so critical okay now now all right let's let's play on this scenario a little bit longer so the the what we have we have these validated now generative designs that have come out of this process they're validated that's yes go ahead okay so i want to make a nuance yes so the designs that come out of this process are not validated but what we've done is we've taken the universe of designs that we know are going to fail we've taken them out yes so there's a the nuance is that you know we're not saying these are validated designs but we're saying we think there's they're a lot closer to the final design and that should eliminate some of your your back and forth and iteration as we went through this process we talked to a lot of companies and they would tell us that they would have anywhere between six and ten iterations between the analysts and the design engineer to finally get a good part and so from their perspective if they can get down to two iterations that is a huge time savings and even you know and at the end many of these companies are still using they're not just using simulation to validate they're still making parts and running them through a prototype validation phase and so if you if you are closer to this the final part you save a ton of money on prototype parts and running them through the validation phase because they can get through that phase so there's still a final validation you know final simulation final validation that happens but we've taken out a lot of the the known things that will fail through that process okay yeah that was great nuance awesome okay so then so then we're a big part of sci art is then to be able to move all of the designs that are being made towards the direction of success towards the direction of validation in that direction at least and and and through that process saving people time money resources all that stuff um now yeah because you're given you're given all these constraints like you said with the forces and the and the look index and the size and the material and that way it if you're going outside of those constraints then there are some potentially creative solutions that the bra yeah that could be outside of those parameters that then would need to be you know explored with the final valid validation process of maybe this is potentially better so how does let's see if we can have you explain on the on the technical side how the how does this how does your software work with the initial design in CAD to make the additional like nine let's say CADs so our software is what we call is add add in it adds into the CAD tool and as an input from a CAD software we only require the initial representation of the geometry like the boundary you just have to specify what your boundaries of your design space are going to look like and then the add in like our tool sort of provides you those menu option as any other menu option that you would see within those CAD tools using those menu options now you set up the problem to run on the back end our software that runs right within their ecosystem it runs seamlessly on their workstation without sort of them having to sort of do any kind of a file exchange between one system and the other system so to engineer it would appear that the tools were available as an option within the CAD program so they just have to learn another menu but the way the tool behaves is still the same like the designs that are generated they're generated within their workspace so then in addition to in addition to this add in component you said that there is the outlining the geometries of where the design needs to be in the in the in the digital 3d space then how how do you then let's talk about this how do you you know you have this like there's forces then there's the locations right where it needs to be so how so then they would you would you would your add in would then also add those variables and then your add in would compute the alternative designs so our add in gives the engineer to add in those variables okay so how many so remind me how many different constraints can an engineer put in on one design so constraints and functionalities i sort of make a distinction on that so from a functionality standpoint there are quantitative sort of constraints let's call them quantitative constraints that you have to put such as forces that the design has to support restraints on the surfaces maintaining certain surfaces for say assemblies or sort of spot checks maintaining the references so retaining boundaries like another set of constraints that sort of yield what we call is stresses your displacement and so say frequency variables so these are quantitative constraints like you can measure them you have to run a simulation and then you have to measure all of those constraints then there are qualitative constraints which do not require simulation like they require a ray tracing check whereas the accessibility of the feature for example so for casting you cannot add feature in a direction where it is inaccessible to the cast because you have to pour the material and then you have to sort of demoulded so like those are qualitative constraints maintaining so extrude directions there's qualitative constraints you don't have to specifically run a simulation to sort of add those constraints but when you're removing material based on the simulation you have to be cognizant of those qualitative constraints symmetry is another qualitative constraint so maintain symmetry about a plane sort of axial symmetry radial symmetry those are additional constraints so all of these are sort of provided as input using our tools sort of a tool list or what your menu options that show up within the CAD platform that interact with the part file that is still sitting inside the CAD sort of software all right so how many external constraints so forces restraints how many can i do can i do three can i do four how many can i how many can i put in that's right asking those questions yes so that really depends on how many you want to like we can if you want 10 different sort of constraints based on your loads we can do 10 if you have 100 constraints we can do 100 it basically sort of comes down to how much time do you want to wait and how much computer resources do you have exactly so it's it's if you have uncertain like if you want to sort of go granularly sort of map out a dynamic system sort of for a complete 360 degree cycle say a one full revolution would be like 360 degree cycle and you want to do it like at every degree you can set in 360 constraints and to manage all of those constraints to do your design exploration and do you usually do you usually have the computation done on the local machine or do you send off the computation it's always on the local machine so ideally our philosophy is that the computer resources that you have are sufficient to run complex real-life problems like the simulation are from a simulation capability like we are able to sort of simulate all of these different designs within your system and that's that's part of our secret sauce is that you don't have to be connected to the cloud so from you know because of my gm background his his tarot motors background we both come from large enterprise backgrounds and right now they're they they don't want their data going into the cloud now that may change in the future but where that where where those companies are right now and we've talked to really hundreds of engineers who are like oh you're doing generative design and then we say and it all runs on your laptop oh i want to talk to you because they have already been told their designs are not going up into the cloud and so that's that's a non-starter for for many of the people many of the companies that that would be interested in this yeah yeah that's that's a very good point at the same time it's also interesting to you know as we were just discussing that if you're computing three variables it can potentially be done locally if you're maybe doing 100 it might not be able to compute locally this may be this may take too long of a processor it may be done much faster if it's done with a more powerful machine this type of these types of points now then is it then your your proprietary algorithms do the computations of the restraints of the constraints the functionalities that are that are needed that's what sci-art software is doing yes so they are doing all of those computations of sort of simulating all these restraints all these constraints design by design locally and so imagine so let's throw a hypothetical like you're doing three different scenarios three different constraint scenarios and you're solving for say 80 percent material removal and you would like to explore every design for like two percent material for every two percent material removal you want to see what the design looks like so we are performing the simulation three times every two percent material removal all the ways that are removing 80 so then it'll fail at some point because yeah yeah yeah yeah and so so then maybe one maybe then what you're trying to do then is your your room or is this the case you're trying to remove the amount of materials by two percent until you get a failure and then you know what the minimum amount of material you need is for the 100 000 uses or whatever it may be yeah that's exactly yeah okay oh that's so interesting that seems like exactly what we need to to instead of like you said this now becomes more about science and the simulations and knowing the the truth and versus subjectively taking guesses or having to do things long form computations and it works to have a tool that can just simulate these out much faster do you and then do you have that you have like an algorithm then that does that actual like decrease by two percent and then check that's so interesting that's so cool do you have more examples like that where you're like decreasing something like a material by two percent or that your all of our examples are like that so any design exploration that we do we do it so the parameters is like what is the volume that you want to decrease every step and the parameters are what are the constraints that you're applying beyond that you can choose to remove material all like 99 percent of the material it's not gonna go there right but yeah what would be another example with what would be another example with maybe one of the messing around with another one of the variables like the forces or the attachment points you know do are those are those for I mean like are those a forever constraint or can they be creatively you know run permutations to creatively figure out how to make it better so uh manufacturing constraints adding manufacturing constraints will give you different results after every two percent material removal adding uh say frequency like so if you're optimizing for frequency the designs that will be generated for every two percent material removal will are going to look wildly different than if you're optimizing for strength or if you're optimizing for stiffness so each of these kind of sort of driving parameters uh kind of give you different exotic designs and all of those exotic designs are sort of generated step by step so remove material cycle through all the constraints that you have figure out which is the constraint that is closest to failure and then let that be the dictating constraint for material removal for the next step so it automatically sort of switches between which constraints are important and also automatically sort of sometimes it sort of takes two bigger step and it fails and it comes back and it sees like if there is another direction that it can sort of go to and sort of remove any more material without sort of violating any of those constraints so it does all of those adaptive sort of decision making from an algorithm standpoint based on the number of constraints that you've specified you add more constraints you get different designs you reduce some number of constraints and you sort of give it more freedom to explore even further that was not able to sort of it wasn't able to reach because those constraints were valid in previous iterations so that yeah this is this is basically having me realize that all of these ways that we're enhancing the human design and engineering process is very beautiful and important but at the same time it's making me realize that soon it will be able to do this on its own process and we'll see how long that actually ends up taking and stuff but for now it will enhance the process and that may happen a long time down the road but there's some and what i'm going to tell you is there's so many things that need to happen to get to that point okay and and at the end of the day you know working for GM what are we focused on eliminating waste out of the process right and i was in the manufacturing operations and so the goal Toyota production system we implemented that at GM and it's all about you know and waste is included in standing when you're not working it's it's it's throwing things away that you shouldn't have to throw away i mean there's a lot of different kinds of waste as part of that process and what what we would both tell you is there is a ton of waste when you have a design engineer do something and then have to wait so waste waiting is waste okay have to wait someone else analyzes it comes back it says this failed and and can't even necessarily tell you why it failed so you take another guess go back forth back forth so you know the first part of this process is how do you eliminate waste in in the in that process now the future we talked about you talked about the future we are in violent agreement about the long-term future but but the you know ai i mean we know it's like a human can look at something and say oh there's a problem here and that it's a long way away before that comes out of the design process because that experience of you know i look at it oh that won't work but if we just adjusted a little bit maybe this will work but but this kind of software will give you options that the human brain because it just hasn't even thought about yeah we have to sleep and we have to we have emotions and all i mean it's just you know some of these solutions you look at them and you're like wow where did that come from yeah yeah so um teach us about siret software's um you know next steps right now it's the add-in on the CAD um when what is the next thing is is the next thing also the ability to do some of these simulations with the supply chain or with um or with the um with uh with that with the down the line with the actual uh a process of how difficult it will be to do maintenance where did where are the next parts of the siret so um so current step is with design engineers and a lot of doing uh traditional manufacturing so next step is taking this superfast on the desktop capability to do design for additive manufacturing all right and i'm going to let you talk a little more about that so uh most of the manufacturing process that we've sort of used as a constraint up until now are kind of qualitative manufacturing process like we have some information based on the visual of what a part looks like and those manufacturing processes based on those visual information and some uh tabulated information we sort of enforce those as constraints additive manufacturing is a whole different beast all together like the process itself has to be simulated and that simulated process will give you information about the physics of the part that comes out because of the process like the process itself changes the material behavior of the part that is being sort of created through am process so just to be able to sort of get a initial sort of process simulation done and then bake that into a design decision tree to sort of generate designs that are now going to be more likely to succeed through the am process and will retain the functionality that you design those parts to sort of maintain in the first place is is uh going to be in the next step so understanding the am awareness of the design is what we're looking at so then with give us the with the bracket we were talking about what would that look like with the the second step of that am so assuming that the assuming that the uh first step with that bracket we said it needs to be manufactured traditionally well with am and i'm now talking specifically metal am if you have angles you have a you build it a certain way and against the build direction so the z height of the build direction if you have an angle greater than 45 degrees you need to design supports okay so you can picture i need to do this and the way you set up your build will actually determine what your design needs to look like so you've got your process awareness and then there's going to be issues around well gee how many are you going to build on a build plate and the the heat interaction will create potential for warping and so taking all of those build things and putting it into your design software and figuring out not how to do it in the cloud but how to do it on your desktop and that's our that's our next next version and then as a wrap let's think on with all of the different transitions that are happening on the like on this massive technological and economic revolution that's going on in terms of the exponentials where do you see the most amount of both of sci art software being able to make an impact as well as your specific most interest in what's going on with the exponential tech are you're going to make me answer that one aren't you um so we so there's a couple things one is um the the huge expansion of metal 3d printing is going to just fundamentally change the way mechanical engineers design parts okay and the question is when do you how when do you start getting mechanical engineers thinking about designing parts functionally versus sit down and draw and and we think we're the right tool for today to do that but the future and i'm gonna i'm gonna actually um i'm gonna talk about a vision that joe wall shared with me which is picture that in the very early that that all parts are essentially designed functionally and today we think about here's a model and this is what you build so you build it in prototype you build it in production and you build it for service but if you picture the future is we need something that does x and you have a functional build and you validate the x in prototype and then you move into high volume production and the part looks completely different even though it has the exact same functional capability and you you you you build it one way in production and then as you get down and and and the part is in a vehicle that's 20 years old and it's it's more towards the end of its service life but it breaks on a vehicle and you need to replace it you may have a third design that meets the same functional requirements but it looks very different than the part that it's replacing and that is that is the promise of generative design is that that it's not the part itself that's so important as opposed to the function of what this part does all the way through the long-term life of that product and so it ties into the digital thread it ties into it it ties into the digital twins it ties into a lot of the industry 4.0 but the ultimate vision is that design will start identifying here's the function it doesn't matter what it looks like whoa yeah damn that's cool yeah if if we're designing with the intent of of functionality as the foremost importance and then just let all the permutations run and see what ends what it ends up being as the most solid one that's really cool yeah and then that skips out on all of the time that we spend on on potentially the bad designs and yeah very cool very cool any thoughts proven on the last question well I want to build a Dyson sphere yeah yeah no kidding yeah yeah yeah yeah so long-term vision not for the company but in general is self replicating AM processes where AM machines are building more AM machines that are building parts that will go and sort of propagate the structures that need to be built before a human can ever sort of go into that space thinking from a space exploration standpoint yeah but that's a different story all together I am going to say something here also which is this is an exciting time but it's also a scary time right because it's like we don't know what that means to our society we don't know what that vision means to our culture our society and even just what people are going to do in the future but but you know when you moved from a pure you know a predominantly agricultural situation with the steam engine they didn't know either and there will clearly be people displaced and you know so for me personally it doesn't mean I have I walk away I worry about how do we societally deal with this displacement okay and all the technology that's coming that are going to displace people who have good solid middle-class jobs I don't know where this is going but I also know that you cannot stand in the way of where technology wants to take you and so we're going down this path because the technology is going to go whether we whether we do it or someone else the future I absolutely believe and and his description that is going to be the future so it's going to happen but but you know being being aware of that and at least trying to understand that this isn't just about the company this is about the greater what happens in the world and wanting to be aware and care about that that would be my final message is it's not it's it's not just about the one thing it's like there's there's ramifications to us as a society in a global society and I hope that the people who are watching this are aware of that also yeah this is a very good way to wrap I am very much in agreeance I think there's mostly a retraining issue that we're facing I think there's going to be a significant amount of jobs that open up as well in coding in the IOT world and all these interesting fascinating slots but that how do we retrain people that were driving trucks or cabs how do we retrain service retail industry people to to want maybe augmented reality maybe something that has to do with the brain computer interface world who knows but I think that it is definitely one of the big problems but it's and it's also a very interesting vision of additive manufacturing making more additive manufacturing that runs the permutations as it makes the best functionality pieces in the limited slots that it can fit in this is a very very cool conversation I'm very happy that Syr it's at the frontier of being able to push into this because it saves bad does it saves time away from bad designs moves us towards the the right designs for at younger ages for kids to to be able to go through this process young adults can get in through this process faster thanks a lot for coming on to the show you too thank you so much we really appreciate this was a lot of fun yeah thank you so much we really appreciate everyone for tuning in thank you so much we would love to hear your thoughts in the comments below let us know what you're thinking about about generative design and also give give Syr to check check out their link in the bio below and support the artists and entrepreneurs that you believe in support simulation all of our links are below check out cofes support cofes their links are below as well and go and build the future manifest your dreams into the world everyone we love you very much thanks for tuning in and we will see you soon peace