 Good morning to our friends in Hawaii and good afternoon and evening to our friends elsewhere. Thanks so much for joining us at Think Tech Hawaii and we have the great fortune to have with us today starting with ladies first and preeminence as deserved. Professor Emerita Fernelia Randall from the University of Dayton School of Law and one of the leading national and international experts and an incredibly comprehensive compiler of works on race, racism and the law. Internationally respected for that and this year's Society of American Law Teachers award winner for the great teacher award which is for those who are active in legal education a very major lifetime achievement award. Congratulations and thanks Professor Randall for joining us. Thank you. And Davis formally professor well Professor Emeritus from the University of Toledo School of Law then University of Illinois at Chicago School of Law now at Washington Lee School of Law and previous to that an international scholar, lawyer and legal role model in Europe internationally as well as in the U.S. nationally former chair of the American Bar Association's dispute resolution section and current chair David Larson also joining us a seasoned professor at the Mitchell Hamlin School of Law in the Twin Cities in St. Paul and the leader and innovator of bringing access to justice through online dispute resolution to the courts of New York a project that was years in the works and years in its progress and culmination. Thank you all for joining us. So one thing that's become visible I think to all of us is for the last few years we in the U.S. have been focused intensely and intently on domestic assaults on institutions, principles, practices and leaders of democracy. And in the last few weeks that focus has shifted to to the international arena with Russia's attacks, unprovoked attacks on Ukraine and where that's headed. So what we're not seeing in the media and what might be worth exploring a little bit today is is there a connection between those national and international assaults on democracy and the values, principles and practices to build and rebuild democracy? President Randall? I thought David was getting ready to say something. What were you going to say? There you go. Okay. Yeah, I was just going to say yeah I absolutely think there's a connection. I think that what's happening in Ukraine is inspiring us and shaming us. I think it's really making us think about the value and importance of democracy and maybe ways we haven't recently referred to what Chuck was saying about kind of our inward looking domestic focus. And as we're doing all the domestic focus I don't think we've put enough value on democracy as opposed to autocratism and despotism. And I think what's happening in Ukraine is kind of shocking us and shaming us. The realizing that maybe we haven't put enough value on democracy and inclusion and the right to vote for everybody and how important that is. And the way that what's happening in Ukraine is kind of activating the democratic world and in ways that we weren't sure what happened again. You've got Germany leaving its policy of non-intervention and now sending arms to Ukraine. You've got Sweden which stayed neutral under Hitler now sending arms to Ukraine. And the democracy of the world are finally recognizing the threat of these autocratic governments. And I think it's incredibly important. Or Ben go ahead. Yeah sorry. Well what I was going to say was I woke up yesterday morning and I was thinking I needed to buy a plane ticket to Kiev to go take up arms with the Ukrainians with regards to what was going on there. And then my body woke up and said Ben 66-year-old guy somebody blow a breath at you and you'd fall over in a second you know me running around wait a minute I got to take my pills and I'll be right with you with that. I had this sort of Lincoln Brigade in the Spanish Civil War George Orwell who had a lot of fantasy for about 20 minutes. But I did listen to a I don't know who she was in Ukraine who was saying that you know here sort of for 30 years you've been trying to be a democracy here in Ukraine. And right now is like our moment okay where they're basically trying to be democracy kind of like the Europeans democracy is kind of looking towards Europe. And the question in their moment now is whether in fact they will be able to do that or is it going to be going sort of back to the classic sort of puppet regime situation in the Soviet era. One of the ways that she put it in sort of a very simple kind of a manner of that this is the moment for the Ukrainians you know to see what that decision is going to be and who's going to help them try to be that democracy. And that really struck me as to putting us all sort of in front of sort of their reality that things that they're going to fight they're going to fight they're going to do the best they can you know but you know that that was sort of a way of framing the stakes that I found really quite perceptive if I could say it like that. The other thing is the change in the last week of the approach of sanctions that we've seen that's come out is quite amazing in terms of getting all of the 27 european or 28 european countries together along with the united states the kind of sanctions that have been put forward the addressing the really kind of separating out the central bank the russian central bank in the banking system the swift system which is kind of like you know the the gold star space for international finance all of those even the swiss you know I mean those things I are unprecedented and they are about as strong a response as I could ever imagine would be done to something like this other than troops being sent in I mean there's weaponry being sent in to help the Ukrainians I'm certain that the intelligence community is providing information I don't know but to the Ukrainians so you know there's a lot of things being done to support this Ukrainian effort short of troops going in but there's a part of me that has this real wondering feeling of about if that is where the battle for democracy is going on right now are we really doing enough because there seem to be a number of people inside the united states and in other places in the world who seem to love the idea of the autocratic leader the one sort of papa will take care of or mama will take care of everything and you know as long as I kiss up to them they will give me things and all that and you know I I find it quite honestly shameful to see that people haven't at least learned how awful that can be in the in with whatever all the history that that that has happened but then again of course there's a lot of ignorance right there's a lot of ignorance purposefully whatever but there's just a lot of ignorance and I'm not going to say here at least that I you know think the Ukrainians the greatest things in Swiss cheese and I've heard of some bad things that have happened along the borders with refugees like some of the African students hitting on having some some difficult moments along the way you know those are refugee situations are always awful they're always let's not play down with the Ukrainians are doing to Africans they're doing more than giving them a difficult way they're discriminating based on color of skin letting white refugees white Ukrainians go first and pushing back black refugees when lights come up to the end of the line don't get me wrong I I would like to say I'm Switzerland in this but it doesn't look like Switzerland is even being neutral the issue from the problem for me is yeah Russia is autocratic and we don't need autocratic but we don't have a democracy and haven't had one in and I don't know how many years we we kind of cover our idea of democracy because we have a one-party system capitalist and both Democrats and Republicans have made sure that no socialist party can get a foothold in this country so in my mind that's not a democracy a democracy would say if there's enough people in a country who supports a particular political view we are going to make sure that they are represented in the halls of law in the halls of government but we do exactly the opposite and so I don't know I feel like I don't want an autocratic government government but I don't believe we have a democracy either so it's hard for me to say how do we sure up our democracy when we don't really have a democracy and going back to your point Ben the reports about what has been happening if what's interesting is two things racially is going on in that whole scenario first the whole treating different at the border different based on the color of their skin secondly is once those videos start came out Russia some people started posting videos of Russians confronting black people and handing them bananas I do not even know what that's about it didn't I guess the implication is Russians are racist too which we already knew but but I think we don't need to doubt in our support for Ukraine we don't need to downplay the racialized behavior that they're going the anti-black behavior that they're engaged in and what that means for their democracy when if they went against Russia I think it's a it's a not only is it an opportune time for us to reevaluate our our strength and backing of the concept of democracy but also to re-examine how we're living it I think we can do those two things to say that it's the time now to draw that line between autocratic leaders and democracies and while we're doing that let's see how well we're doing with democracy and it can be a time where not only we express strongly our support for democracy but also re-examine it and and ask whether or not we can do it better and I mentioned a little bit earlier the idea of being more inclusive in terms of protecting vote I think that's a that's a fundamental thing that we can be doing better and then we could certainly increase our our allegiance and and and pledge to democracy by doing that and I'm still hoping that we can get some legislation in the United States to reinstate some of those voting rights that are getting viscerated at the state level. So I would just like to say that having lived for 17 years in Europe as an immigrant okay and seeing the political games being played with regards to immigrants over there and immigrants here I think it's important that that also be part of the frame of how we look at what's going on there because there is both the color aspect and the immigrant aspect or foreigner aspect that is operating and we've seen that also here in in our country Lord knows the various laws that were passed like the Chinese Exclusion Act and things like that back in the day so you know I think that you know those those those those points are important um you know and maybe I'm just reacting emotionally and if I am I apologize but when I listen to that lady talking about what they're trying to do in Ukraine and what the battle is for though as Ukrainians there and maybe it's a little biased because I was visited there back in 1970 when I was a kid I actually saw it was in Kiev and all that you know and had my head surprised to realize that these people in the Soviet space did not have horns you know and you know did not I don't know look different and have cleft foot based on the propaganda I'd heard as an American you know um I'm also kind of moved by at least a video or movie I saw about Chernobyl that they had to deal with and how they had to confront that with ordinary people basically taking enormous risks because they didn't have the technology to really address the radiation that they had and they did it you know um there's a part of me that just has got a kind of uh a sense that uh something really wrong has happened to these people that uh we have to confront uh and uh and how to confront it I understand is a very complicated thing but um I'm encouraged by the amount of confrontation that's been willing to be done so far I'm dismayed by who stands on the sidelines I look I look to China and say so where are you at China in this thing is this like you're looking so that you can do something towards taiwan soon or something I mean you know what's the game that the autocratic folks want to play as to democracy in the united states you know I agree there's a lot of things that are fundamentally wrong and have been wrong for a long time I love to look at the uh 1901 speech of the last uh black representative from the south farewell to negro to congress talk about all the shenanigans he had to deal with in 1901 right what he lost his seat at the same time I'm like I just kind of have a feeling like no this is some time that whatever the ideals that we espouse and want to have happen and fight for domestically and uh internationally they they they have valence so we might we have to try to show to people that they have valence without uh you know without diminishing the complexities that are there I don't know what the answer is yeah I know that if you're in Russia you can have some rough time being a black person too I know if you're in China you can have some tough time being a black person too I know in America you can have tough time being a black person too I'm not to mention any I'm just saying that there's some kind of things that are like principles that uh my principle is is I do not want to send my grandkids off to war to fight for any country the United States of America Ukraine or Russia who's engaged in significant anti-black racism I mean I mean this is how strongly my son was very young I think he was maybe during the Vietnam war era I became a Quaker only so I could make sure because the war wasn't over make sure that my son could claim a status of not fighting but I mean it you know when I'm on these lists with people with other black people and that we're talking about what you know if this was to go to war the people who are going to be going and dying in the war representing the United States are going to be disproportionately people of color black brown Native American and Latino people and and waving a banner of democracy that they don't have and so it's it's hard for me to justify to them why we should get involved at all you know well I mean I can I can see that I mean yeah I see that argument to me why get involved at all you know it's like you can look at you can look at any war that the United States has been in going back to at least the civil war or certainly the revolutionary war and uh you have seen that there were black troops who fought and who suffered even in the most severely racist militaries that they had to deal with that they fought for some kind of an ideal that they thought was important now you can say when they came home they were lynched they had horrendous things happen to them yet at each point along the way when it came to the crunch and I'm I'm talking up at least through World War two and the Korean War they fought and people like Thurgood Marshall used to go out there and criticize the structure of the military and how these people were treated unequally inside the military and in the current levels of court martial and things like that to try to get some kind of equality operated with regards to what they were dealing with you know but but they you know they they did fight those battles and part of the battle was a theory I guess which was that if we fight fascism here it'll help us with fighting fascism at home and you know the question worked out that way it didn't work at well you know it's interesting it worked out some ways but it didn't work out all the ways okay I mean there are things that didn't go and the things that did go it's like the morphine that's been going off for 400 years right but my my personal thing and again it's just a personal thing for me is uh um in this particular war first thing I always start with is I think he's Greek it may be Roman or you always can correct my gun name Escalus said the the first casualty of war is truth right so it's really hard to know what the truth is that's going on there but to me it's kind of like this is an attempt by some people to have some kind of democracy and clearly there's an autocratic party that is trying to repress them that is using the words of genocide in ways that I find really instrumentalized that are using the words of of being in by consent of countries that they have magically recognized that I work at two minutes and all I mean it's a lot of like manipulative things that are going on at least to me that I find is basically a vision of Mike makes right and we have our contradictions you know I noticed that by the way on the vote in the resolution on the general assembly Iraq abstain I thought that was really interesting they didn't vote for it they didn't vote against it they just abstain I thought that was a really interesting one given what we did in Iraq you know what I mean and what UK did in Iraq I just said it's interesting but what I'm just trying to say is that notwithstanding or maybe inconsistent with all that you know I kind of look at what the Ukrainians would like for what they're trying to do and the sense I get from them is they want us to help and that is something that I have to live with every night is that they are asking for help they're trying to become a member of the European Union they're trying to become a member of NATO they you know they're voting with their vision of what they want to be their future and it's not a Russian future and kind of when I look at Putin and all that his concerns I said you know when the USSR fell apart in 1989 all those satellites could have said hey we want to hang out with Russia but what did they do they all went towards Europe that was their choice you know and they suggested that something that was more sort of democratic than what they lived in those public regimes that the Soviets had in place that was kind of a statement of not of voting with your feet so to speak they might not like that as a Russian you know and I can understand that but that's the reality of how do people see it you know you know what you know what I'd like to say and I think we can do I think we can stand for democracy and reevaluate democracy I don't see why we can't do those two things simultaneously we talk about conflict creating opportunity I think this is an opportunity to to ask when we say that we're standing for democracy what are we standing for how how has that looked how can it look can we make it better I think we can do those things I think that the next few weeks are going to be really interesting because are we going to be willing to pay higher gas prices are we going to be willing to suffer some of the economic consequences for these sanctions because we are going to feel some of those in ways we haven't before you know I think when we look at Crimea we look at Georgia we have not been willing to do the kinds of things to penalize those aggressions it seems like now finally we're starting to draw a line in the sand are we going to stay there are we going to as things get harder as gas goes to $5 a gallon $6 a gallon are we going to be willing to to take those economic consequences I hope we can but again I think that as we keep saying we stand for democracy we should also be asking what exactly does that mean how have we implemented it and how can we improve well in our last minute here give each of you a short shot all experienced for decades in conflict resolution it's practice it's teaching is there any way any path toward resolution of this conflict that is constructed in your view I'll just jump in first with the hooray to the diplomats and I'll just say let's get a one-hour ceasefire okay and let's get a two-hour ceasefire then let's get a five-hour ceasefire then let's get a 12-hour ceasefire you know I mean really that's the levels I saw that there's a there are humanitarian corridors being set up at least that's part of sort of dealing with the civilian refugee situations at least that kind of thing but bit by bit you know the ceasefires is the getting at one that holds is always the first step I think for this kind of thing I would agree with that I think the only way the only thing as long as there's fighting going on you know there's going to be I I have to say that I don't know I don't believe people when they talk about their democracy their goals for democracy I think that they're talking about their goals for them being in power in the way they want to be in power and that when they and that ultimately they're going to have a flawed democracy and if we're going to support the Ukrainians we should make sure not only should we look at what it is we mean by domestic democracy but we also should understand what it is they mean and wanting to join NATO wanting to join the European Union that doesn't mean anything to me what are you going to do to the people who are the lowest in your country and how will they have access to political power in your country or is it going to end up being the elites with the money controlling the democracy like it is here in the United States you know get into Chuck's question about what can we do in the short term I think we need some kind of face-saving resolution if it all possible can we craft something that Putin would take as not identifying him as a Trump kind of language as a loser is there some kind of package that we can create that he can walk away saying that you know I wasn't defeated in Ukraine what that would look like I'm not entirely sure does that mean that we have to somehow give up sovereignty over these insurgent republics in the east I'm not sure but I think that if if there's going to be a negotiated settlement it's got to have that element to it that there's got to be some opportunity for Putin to say that I wasn't defeated here. Thank you all for the wonderful insights it sounds like there's consensus that only if an international alliance can become sufficiently motivating and persuasive to both Putin Russia and Ukraine Zelensky to come to the table for a ceasefire for an internationally brokered negotiation that may be some kind of exploration and balancing of interests other than military conflict might become possible. Thank you all folks come back and join us I think that's a fantastic insight it makes a lot of sense and see you all again in two weeks hopefully in a better place for everyone thank you thank you with you