 Oh, wow. All right. Thank you. Can everybody hear us? All right. It's good to see you. So we've been working together now for five years, something like this. And we haven't seen each other in two years until about five minutes ago. So it's really good to see you. No, it's good to see you, mate. It's definitely been a while. Yeah. And for the audience's benefit, he just touched down in Helsinki about 20 minutes ago. So hot off the tarmac. So I'm Seth. I'm one of the partners at Excel. We are early stage investors in technology companies. I've been fortunate to partner with a lot of great companies over the years, from Facebook to Spotify to Supercell, and of course, Anyfin. And so I have the privilege today of interviewing Mikkel, who is the founder and CEO. And the topic we're going to be discussing is that transition from being an operator to being a founder. And before we dive in, I would just add that at Excel, that founder archetype of someone that has been an operator, really experienced a pain point firsthand, knows the domain very well, and then steps out to solve that problem as a founder. That's something we really love. And so when we do come across folks like Mikkel, we get really excited. So without further ado, we'll dive right in. So why don't we start with just a bit of your background? So you walk us through how you got into fintech in the first place, how you ended up running credit at Klarna, and then ultimately stepping out to start Anyfin. Yeah, no, it actually all started a long while ago, sort of at my uni days. And I visited London. And there I was sort of visiting friends, but for some reason walking around in the financial quarters. And there was one thing that struck me. Everybody looked very different, but everybody looked the same. So everybody, regardless if you were wearing a turban, or if you were white, or brown, or whatever, but everybody was wearing the same suit. And there was a certain appeal to that, to me, sort of some fairness to opportunities. So I really had my mind set on London. But then the financial crisis came about. And there was literally zero jobs being offered to a newly grad. So I started applying. And I saw this company called Creditor, which I hadn't heard of, or I think very few people had ever heard of. And it was a rolling credit risk. So at least it's vaguely related to finance, I thought. So I handed in my resume and applied for a job. And I saw everybody wearing suits. Everybody, at least that was something. So I eventually got the job there. And the suit stuck with us there for a while. But eventually we started sort of dressing OK, actually. And we changed the name from Creditor to Clona. And with that, we dropped the suit. But I did a couple of sort of... When was that, by the way, when they dropped the suits? It was a very well-timed when Sequoia invested in Clona. It sort of happened overnight. One of the prerequisites. Yeah, we were allowed to drop the suits and sort of we could dress like we wanted. But a very long story short, I saw myself working in credit risk. I did a couple of projects of sort of leveraging data to make better underwriting decisions and all of that stuff. And eventually, after a while, I started leading sort of everything from underwriting to data science to sort of collection strategy and merchant underwriting, so the entire thing. And obviously, throughout that journey, sort of seen quite a few things. Yeah. And so how long were you at Clona before you came across or came up with the idea for anything? And then what led you to ultimately want to step out to start the company? There are actually two separate things, me stepping out and me starting. And even though they have probably the same grounding point. So I was there for about seven years, throughout starting off just prior to Series B or close to that and then seeing it grow to a couple of thousand people with presence in both Europe and North America. So quite a journey. But there were a few things and sort of that. As I got exposed to the industry as a whole, I really saw how the sausage was made. Like I was responsible for credit risk. You see, in some regards, the good that it provides people. Like being able to plan your economy, get access to goods and services. But for me, I also got exposed to sort of large backside of things, people paying way too much for these services, lives getting ruined and all of that. And I think sort of that was the key thing that there was an opportunity here to one, sort of actually pay penance or do what's right. But also sort of a business opportunity to serve customers that are grossly underserved in a much better way with fairer terms and better products. Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. And you obviously have two co-founders, Sven and Philip. Also from operating backgrounds, Spotify and Aizel respectively. Maybe just tell us a little bit about kind of the three of you coming together. And at the time, the companies still continue to be very successful. What compelled the three of you to really step out and start this? Yeah, I mean, I have the boring background. You know this, but so we're three co-founders and we all actually met in sort of that 2009 timeframe working at Clona. But while I stayed, Philip left after a year or two and became employee number single digit at Aizel, which so last year to PayPal for a few billion. And then Sven did sort of the same thing, but he left and started at Spotify, sort of another up and coming there. And then sort of leave it seven or so years and our paths sort of crossed again. And we started sort of humming. We were all ready to do something, but everybody shared the sort of same, you know, kernel of wanting to do something within this industry and sort of the element of the underserved consumer in so many ways sort of resonated with all of us. Yeah, I totally agree. Maybe now talking a bit about the sort of first phase in the startup journey, you know, I always find that, you know, obviously starting anything is incredibly challenging. And then, you know, going from zero to product market fit is, you know, probably one of the hardest things startups have to do. What about your, you know, the operating experience that you had accrued at Clona helped you kind of A, have conviction that you had product market fit and B were kind of comfortable to then lean in and invest further in that idea. And also give everyone a sense for the initial product that anything was when we invested and kind of when you started. Yeah, so what we first brought to market four years ago was sort of based on this insight that, you know, people are paying way too much, right? Way too much for the credit in particular. So what we launched to market was the ability to refinance any unsecured that and give you as a customer and the rate that they actually deserved by just snapping a picture of that monthly credit card bail or servicing statement. You know, we would process everything and instantly send you back an offer and a one tap, okay? So sort of within that, you know, we sort of leveraged all sort of our combined three decades of experience because like really without, you know, using your keyboard really, you've been able to actually go through a full sort of KYC process underwriting and be actually getting the terms that you deserve. And then sort of, there were obviously a lot of things that we knew about the industry that we could leverage, but there were, you know, a lot of, I think the most important things were probably the abstract learnings. You know, surround yourself with great people, right? People who you can trust to move the needle. Make sure that you sort of get excited about the same things. So alignment, don't become a problem. Sort of all of those things you've seen pan out sort of in my previous experience and sort of, you know, making sure that a few of those pieces to the puzzle were there to the beginning, but don't get me wrong, like it's still hard, right? Like, you know, it's still tough to go from zero to one or from zero to any number. Yeah. How would you sort of characterize the difference in mindset from, you know, being an operator to being a founder? I mean, obviously there is a, in many ways it's, you know, you go to work, you do something, you perform and tasks and whatever, things need to get done, but in other ways it's completely different. You know, you really feel, you know, the gravel under your feet because, you know, you don't wear any shoes when you're a founder. Like every tiny bump, you really feel it, right? But there's also other things like, you know, you probably have, there's no information asymmetry. Like you probably know much more about what goes on than you typically would do as an operator, which is a good thing. But sort of me, having been in that role actually, you know, as a founder, what's understood that while this is something we try, we need to try and bridge, right? And actually, you know, would be helpful to people to actually make the flow of information free more freely, right? So, yeah. Yeah. And when you, you know, that you had the initial product that allowed you to refinance your credit facility very, you know, instantaneously, and over time now the product has gotten a lot broader and sort of serving, you know, now of a suite of sort of financial wellness products for consumers. Maybe talk a little bit about, you know, that journey and kind of how the products evolved in your mind. Yeah. I mean, we started with, we're trying to solve the largest problem that we solved, right? Where we also had an overlapping sort of skill set to go and execute on it, right? And that was for us the very high price as people pay for credit that was, you know, detrimental to their financial health. What we learned was, you know, in an abstract way, we, with, you know, refinancing something and making it cheaper, you're really righting the wrongs of your financial past, right? You are sort of taking that and making it better. And then sort of, we've built upon that and also introduced tools so your economy here and now can get to it sort of full potential and you can really do that. And what would be examples of that? So we have a few things. We have a budgeting tool to help people stay on budget. We have a subscription management tool which sort of gives you an overview of all your subscriptions and you can cancel them or pause them when you go on vacation. So really optimize sort of cash flow within the month because a lot of sort of the root to a lot of financial, you know, non-wellness challenges start in sort of a short term sort of cash. So we've put a lot of emphasis there and sort of we've also, you know, built on that further things. Like we now have savings, right? Which is really about building your financial future in a way, right? And if we can be part of your journey as a consumer to being like worried about your past, you know, getting your economy in order here and now to build your financial future. That's really, you know, aligned with what we're here to do for our customers and consumers. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think that's, you know, ultimately the mission that we, you know, invested in way back when. I guess, you know, you're now obviously a lot further along. You've raised over a hundred million dollars, multiples of that and credit to sort of support the product. Talk to share a bit about, you know, the some of the key levers, you know, as you've grown that have allowed you to scale quickly. I mean, there is definitely a few of them, I think. Part of it is, you know, understanding what we're good at and where we need to hire really good people. And I think to a large degree about scaling a company is building out the team that's fantastic. And it sounds like this most obvious cliche. You hear it all the time, but it's very true, right? And for us, it was a lot about leveraging our network, you know, in Stockholm and in Europe to make sure that we could surround ourselves with people, you know, that one believed in the same thing that we believed in, like the good in changing people's lives for, financial lives for the better, right? That bought into that mission. But also, you know, could bring something to the table, something that, you know, we miss. So I think, you know, that's definitely the number one lever, right? But I think the other main lever is, you know, sort of similar to that is you need to understand as a business what you're really good at and where you probably are going to struggle and you will probably struggle there for a long while. And obviously you need to hire and do things with that but you should also, you know, put a lot of emphasis on, you know, where you're strong. And you know this, like how many debates have we've had about, you know, you should push on this and we've been a bit comfortable because it's not really our territory. And actually in many ways believe that's the right strategy to apply. Like you need to understand, you know, for us it's about, you know, we understand credit, we understand credit risk, we understand financial systems, connectivity with banks. How can we leverage these things to solve other types of problems? Like, you know, how can we use that to grow or how can we use that to sort of get payment flows better or create new customer experiences, right? So remaining on those things and using those as levers to get to scale is important. I guess, you know, you obviously come from the domain, you've got a lot of, you know, a great understanding of pricing, credit. There's, so that's kind of muscle that you had built while you were at Klarna, obviously stepping out and kind of building your own company. There's a lot of new muscle to build, a lot of things you're doing for the first time. You know, for the folks that are in the audience that are operators that are thinking about stepping out to become founders themselves. Maybe talk a bit about that new muscle that you had to build as a founder on your own as a CEO for the first time and how you sort of developed those. Yeah, I mean, in some regards it's picking the right type of co-founders to go with you, right? With complementary skill sets and all of these things. And I think, I'm not sure even, you know, you know this, but so me and my co-founders, you know, we were short, we were friends, you know, we grabbed the beer once a year or, and that kind of friends, but we were never close friends. But we had a really good working relationship. And sort of when we got started on things, that really made a lot of things easier in a way, right? Because in some respect, it was going to work, so you know the mechanics of all of these things and some other regards, it was completely not like going to work, right? Because you were working so many hours in all of those things. But I think the other thing, you know, five years in or, you know, we've been at this now for quite a while and we're still friends. And which you probably know because, you know, this is my first journey, I've only done this once, but it's something I've learned that is very uncommon in sort of, you know, starting a company. We're still very good friends, right? And I sort of attribute that to sort of that moment of coming together and actually working professionally on a problem rather than, you know, picking a lifestyle and going at it. Like I had two kids at home. I needed to make it work, you know? So these types of things were very important, you know, for me and for all, for the three of us when we got going, to get this off. Yeah, no, all great points. You mentioned talent as sort of a key source of success for you guys. You obviously started in Sweden, but have now expanded into multiple European countries. Have you continued to find top-tier talent and, you know, especially in this market where it's become so competitive? It's super hard to find, you know, talented people. And there's a war on talent and it's a very true one and we feel it every day. And I think for us, you know, you need to understand sort of where your strengths are. You know, for us, you know, we have a rich network. We can leverage some of these things to get in front of people that we know or don't know that are really, really talented. And I think for us, part of the secret source in getting somebody excited, and it's completely fine if people are not excited by it, but like if you really wanna go and do something which has a positive impact in people's lives and do so at scale, then, you know, we have that. And we can, you know, and that speaks to people, not everybody, but some people. And those people, you know, really wanna come join us on this journey to do it. And then sort of, you know, that's the name of the game, right? Like you need to understand. I think that's, I've been most impressed by that. I think you've, you know, there are lots of, you know, incredibly talented people in the Swedish ecosystem that have, you know, been at companies like Spotify and Klarna, you know, for many years, but have chosen to step out and join you because they believe so deeply in the mission that you're on. So I think we're increasingly seeing that as a competitive advantage in this hiring market. So, you know, we've talked a bit about, you know, some of the lessons that you've learned along the way. I guess, you know, flipping that around, is there anything that you would have done differently, you know, aside from maybe working with us? Yeah, that would be number, no, no, no. For the record, very happy to work with you for the last few years. No, we've done a ton of mistakes. A lot of, quite a few tactical ones along the way, right? But I think there is, it's more of a funny anecdote than something, but when we got going, and you know this, right? Like we decided to, we wanted to make it easier for people to refinance. So sort of the two bets that we had was one, the picture, you know, enabled us to do so seamlessly. But the other one was we don't need an app. You know, instead, let's actually focus where people already are, which is in SMS or on Snapchat or wherever you are, and you can, you know, sort of within that vehicle transact with us and carry out. And that was a complete done, man. Like I'm not sure why you didn't advise us against it harder. Seems like a good idea. Than app instead. So that was I think on the sort of tactical side, one of the largest mistakes that we had. Sort of on the more general sense, I think capturing momentum is one of these things which I think, you know, I've really learned throughout these years, is super important. Because if a ball is rolling, it's much, much easier to change it or get it to accelerate that than if it's a sand still object. And I think it goes in both ways. Like when we've had that momentum to really come and sort of leverage that harder. And I think we've been a bit shy many times and sort of really making use of that. But also other times when, you know, the ball isn't really moving, you know, to really, okay, take a step back and really think about, you know, how can we get it's in motion and then get it to accelerate rather than trying to get from 0 to 100, you know, in a heartbeat, right? So, yeah. Yeah, no, I think all great, all great lessons. And, you know, I think no startup journey is, you know, just up into the right. There's lots of kind of ups and downs along the way. You know, what, I guess when you think about, you know, again, back to potential operators in the audience that are thinking about stepping out and becoming founders, you know, what, what would you advise them to do as they sort of kind of crystallize their idea about, you know, that company that they want to start? You know, so that they are sure that they have conviction to step out and do it themselves. Yeah. You know, for one piece of advice here is really to understand where your strengths are in the more abstract sense and figuring out what industry that you can operate in, you know, effectively and efficiently. More than, you know, figuring out what the exact product is going to be. You know, for us, sure, there's this moment when we, you know, when we were brainstorming where that sort of, oh, this is how the first product is going to look like, and this is how we can make it seamless and frictionless. But the fact of it is, you know, we all got together, we had picked an industry, we had understood what we could do, and how we could do certain things, and then we figured out what the exact product, you know, mechanics would look like. And we have a very differentiated product and a very differentiated offering towards consumers, but it all started in the other end of the room, right, but actually understanding the broader strokes of what we were trying to do. And I think, you know, if you're an operator right now, thinking about one day, you know, going out and solving a new problem and making the world a better place, you know, don't get stuck in this, like, I need to find this idea. I need to sort of figure out this thing and then all my problems will go away, because the fact is no problem will go away. You're still going to get stuck with 90, you have just figured out one out of the million things you need to solve for in order to build a company, right? So, yeah. Yeah, and I guess your story has evolved not only in terms of, you know, the scope of the product, but also the new geographies that you've expanded into. I know you've launched Germany recently. Maybe kind of talk a bit about that journey, kind of the geographic expansion and how your experience at Klarna helped you. I mean, we really stole a page from that book from the previous operating journey. So, you know, we're HQed out of Stockholm, which means that the domestic market is a relatively small one, right? But actually having seen the sort of inner workings of Klanas, the Spotify, it's the iSatel, you know, we very much from day one realized like, well, if we actually get to where we want to be, Sweden won't be enough. Which means that, you know, we had that in mind when we built out the product. So firstly, like in the abstract sense, the product needs to sort of work, not that you need to have everything figured out, but it needs to work on multiple markets. But also when you build sort of your systems, there's shortcuts that you can take and there's shortcuts that you sort of stay away from because you know, like if we do this well, a year from now, you know, we're going to tackle a new geography. So right now we're in three geographies. So, you know, we're in the Nordics, we're in Finland and then Sweden, and we also, in Germany, and we plan to open up and, you know, continue to expand further into three more next year, right? So, you know, we really, and that would never have been possible unless we from the sort of first day when we got going on this really had that in mind, you know, we need to build something which is at least pan-European. And maybe just to add some color to that, what's an example of a decision that you made early that maybe slowed you down in those early innings, but kind of longer term has allowed you to expand internationally more efficiently or quickly? I mean, there's small decisions that you make on the product side when you build a system, right? Like you know, you make sure that you can tackle currency, which is a big thing in your systems from day one when you build it out, right? Instead of just assuming or multi-language being another one of those things. But those are, I think, more the tactical things, not as interesting. I think if you spend five minutes on the problem, you realize that those are the things. I think the interesting things are the more of the softer aspects yet again. Like, you know, the people that you hire, can they, like, are they well-connected in Sweden, or is it actually a benefit for them having a playbook and, you know, know how to speak to people in the UK when they're racing that, for instance, right? Like, all of these things, you can think about it in the, you know, the small scale, or you can, you know, open up your eyes a bit and think ahead a bit. And I think we, if anything, did a fairly decent job in that in the early days. Yeah, no, totally agree. I see we're short on time, but I would be remiss not to ask you about fintech more broadly, given it's, you know, just been such a compelling category across Europe. You know, it certainly produced a disproportionate amount of value, you know, for investors in Europe. So leave us with kind of your parting thoughts on, you know, what is most exciting to you in fintech right now, beyond any fint, of course. I mean, I think the larger trends are very interesting and appealing, right? I think what you saw in the early stages of fintech was a lot of people jumping on opportunities in terms of, you know, business value. You saw very, you know, people going out and doing lending at usual rates or, you know, getting to a niche court of customers that would underserve a price that's super high, right? I think what's happening now with sort of a bit of a separation of the front end and back end, but you see companies actually taking a bit longer term view on how they can provide value to customers and viewing it as a relationship. I know we certainly do. And really making sure that, like, you know, you stay true to that, right? And I think, you know, with the influx of capital that has happened over the last decade into fintech, et cetera, the sort of longer term outlook is also a much more of a viable one, right? So I'm happy to see that. I think, you know, some of the early gens in, you know, transfer wise of what happened with, you know, remittance and putting pressure on that and you see it in, you know, definitely in consumer lending happening now. So, you know, very interesting times ahead. Yeah, for sure. Fantastic. Well, thank you. I think we're just out of time. Great to see you. And thank you everybody for listening.