 Okay, let's get started so welcome everyone to session for a of the zero mission solutions conference, and our session today is net zero cities of the future. My name is Kendra was luck and I am the sustainable development planner at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia. I'm in the buildings and property division of the university, and I am responsible for the university's operational sustainability strategy, and also capital works planning and projects to deliver on our, with our net zero emissions goals but also our general sustainability goals run energy water waste and the like. And so I have the honor today of chairing the session. So first I wanted to start off with an acknowledgement of country, and given that we're meeting virtually. And I'll go with the sort of one for across all of Australia so in the spirit of reconciliation. I would also like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the country throughout Australia, and their connections to the land, sea and community repair respects to their elders past present and extend that respect all our original tour start on the people today. So myself personally I live. This is Melbourne a little picture here I live about 16 kilometers southeast of Melbourne in the suburb called Sandingham. And I would also like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians of the land on which I'm currently sitting, which is the butter on people of the Kulin nation. I'm also on this bigger map lucky to sit smack bang in the middle of 1717 kilometers section of coastline, basically where I have the opportunity to extend my learning of the local indigenous history. There's lots of contemporary indigenous artwork, and lots of stories based on the natural environment. And when I was looking up today for images, actually in the guidebook there's a picture of the, it's called the boomerang landscape which is the coastline and that's actually at the end of my street. So that was kind of very cool to see. So to give you some context or other speakers today. And so we have Anna and Scott who are in the greater Melbourne region with me as well. And then we have Rajan who's in Amdavid, which is in Western India and when I was looking it up I realized and found out it is one of the largest cities in India and we also want to wish him a very happy And then Ryan is in London in the UK, and then he kind of looks like he's straddling Norway but it's such a tiny country I had to squish him in there. Studio and overview of today's session it's split up between the speakers giving a presentation and then a panel Q&A. So we're going to have Anna who's from NG talk about big picture net zero service and scene setting, what is net zero, why it's important how do we take the journey to achieve net zero cities and precincts and then she's going to talk about some case studies. Scott's going to take a bit of a more deeper dive and talk about specifically the Monash University Clayton campus and technology precinct and talk about things we've tested today a bit of our testing and learning around energy efficiency, building optimization, electrification and precinct scale micro grids. Roger is going to go even deeper and talk about how technology can assist cities to achieve net zero and how it can help governments make more informed decisions around policies and programs. Brian's going to focus more on the people side and communities of cities, because having going towards a net zero city will have ramifications on the energy life of the community. So he's going to be talking about different governance approaches to basically help engage communities in local climate policy and politics and utilizing Manchester City as a case study. First off, we wanted to start with some audience participation. So if you're not familiar with it we're going to use a service called Kahoot. So if you on your phone or in another window in your browser could go to my screen. I've been doing all these slides and you can't see my screen. Thank you so. I'll go back and show you what you missed. So this is a picture of the coastline. This is the Burrung landscape. Here's where I'm Melbourne. Here's where everybody is in the world. So speakers and now we've got audience participation. Thanks for that. So if you go to Kahoot.it and it will ask you if you have the app it'll ask you to put in a pin number, which I'm going to give you in a second. And what I've got about six questions and it's really so we can learn a little bit more about yourselves. So you get about 30 seconds to answer each question. Most of them are free texts that you just type in you get about 20 characters. And then there's a couple of random trivia questions I threw in there just to capture your attention. So, Scott and Anna and Ryan, can you ask me a thumbs up that you can see the Kahoot screen. Awesome. Thank you. There we go. First, first one on the screen. Well done. Don't be shy. Get in there. We've got 10. We've got at least 30 or 40 of you out there. So the pin if you don't see it's up there at the top. It's the 6394694. I'll give it another 30 seconds to see if we get anyone else. You can if you join later if it's behind you can join at any time, the pin number will stay up. All right, I feel like I have a critical mass of 20. Let's go. This first one I think is a free text question. So we've told you where we're from we would really like to know where you're joining us from you type your answer what country you're joining us from and if you're wondering why the gloves upside down it's because I'm an Australian that's our view of the world. Oh yeah and if you can't feel free to type in the chat box as well. Netherlands, Germany, India, Canada, Canadians. What's for Australians. Awesome. That's a quiz question so in what city is caught 26 being held. So anybody should be able to pick the color. Let's go. I'm matured was last year I think the last one. I'm not sure who Peter is but you're in the lead. Another word cloud so we'd also like to know you told us what country and we'd really like to know what city you're in in that country on bias because I'm a Melbourne so I got a little Melbourne picture. Thank you people in Glasgow. Excellent. Which is okay. That's been the most we've ever been for skewing it a little bit I think as the speakers brilliant. Three more to go quiz question. So this is for this. This one what is the theme of this year's zero emissions solutions conference. So it is the one so it's key climate solutions for a decade of action and I wanted to put that in there just to reiterate that the presentations today are going to be and the conference is about solutions not necessarily about having all the answers but it's about solutions that have been tried and passing on those learnings. I can't remember where I got the red one from the net zero cities of the future that's this current session and great to the two people who are looking forward to it even though you don't know the theme. Word cloud, we're keen to know what sector you come from. So which sector do you work for a study and got some highly matured I'd like to be in holiday right now. In chat we've got national government the water sector city leisure University government I'm keen to know the big blue one is going to be education lots of academics. Awesome. Got recycling buildings. When doing a PhD. Congratulations. Brilliant. Last question to more excellent trivia I believe. Yeah. What is the literal translation of Glasgow from Gaelic good dear green place so there is actually something in Glasgow called the squinty bridge is actually a bridge but the locals nicknamed squinty bridge. That's one word cloud and I don't remember what I asked. Oh, do you have an example of what you think is the of a good net zero city is the one out there already that we came to see what Toronto. That's microgrid. Right, well thank you everyone for playing along we do have a podium so in the trivia we can see who in the trivia, not L was third on the trivia questions. It was second and he was first. Well done. Thank you for playing along that was a bit of fun to start you off. So we're going to move straight now into our speakers presentation. So we're going to start with Anna. So Anna has 20 years of experience as an engineer project manager and business leader in the resources and energy sector. She's a background in process engineering. She's had technical contribution to projects for 15 years and engineering project delivery. And she's brought this to a current role with the energy net zero solutions team. And they're focused on integrating infrastructure services and technology to deliver net zero precincts across Australia. I will stop sharing and hand over to Anna. And thank you everybody for having me. It's lovely to speak to you all today. And I guess I'd like to start first by acknowledging the Wawandori people of the cool and nations whose land I speak to you from today. Also in Melbourne with Kendra, but just from a slightly different different place in the city. So super excited to be talking to you about net zero cities of the future and thought we jumped straight in with why the focus on net zero for cities. And the answer is quite simple. It is cities occupy, if you look at the stats up on your screen, they occupy the smallest amount of space in the globe, but consume the highest amount of energy and of course perpetrators of the most greenhouse gas emissions globally. So what I like to say is if we are going to wage war on climate change, then cities are battleground. And this is why the focus so much on net zero cities. And of course, that is only going to increase over time. We currently have 50% of the globe living in cities today and we know that is going to increase to 70 or 75% by the year 2050. And that alone is putting enormous strain on cities today as they exist today as we as we use and interact with our cities today. We're also on the infrastructure that our cities bear to house us to feed us energy. When we think about a sustainable city we think about wastewater and energy. But but at energy, I guess we're our focus is on energy. And we believe that any energy is at the heart of the transition, as we move to these to these mega cities if you like that, that are being created across the globe. So when we think about the city of a future and net zero city isn't just about energy. We do need to think about sustainability as a whole so again water and waste also contribute a huge amount to this idea of a net zero city of the future. So when we think about, you know, previous trends, smart cities for the last two decades smart cities have been a huge trend globally and we've seen countries like China and India, build entire cities from scratch in in this smart city in a really capable way. And I guess what we're seeing the trends that are being being shown over the last number of years is that, well smart cities are amazing. They are heavily technology focused, and then missing one crucial aspect. And that aspect is the interaction with humans. So the interaction between technology and humans and, and what we're starting to see the trends for for the future is a linking city. So a city that is not just about smart technology, but it also has this, this idea of human interactivity at the heart of it. So they need to be sustainable. And I will talk about the, the energy side of that. As we move forward, they need to be smart, they need to be technology driven, but they need to be inclusive. So part of the issue with with smart cities of the past is that, you know, they have been quite exclusive when we think about different parts of society, you know, disadvantaged parts of society that potentially don't have access to technology, or, or green energy, or, you know, bins to, to, to separate their waste. And then the part of tech, part of society that perhaps can access to technology but don't know exactly how to use it so how do we overcome all of those problems. And how do we make sure that our cities of the future are lovable places are places that we want to live and work in and be in. And how do we make sure that there's great connection between the residents and the occupants of our cities, and that the infrastructure and the technology that's provided to run our cities. And so that sort of very broadly I suppose is, is that challenge that we now face in creating net zero cities that that encompasses so much, much more is is how do we actually do this better in the future. When we focus on the energy aspect of a net zero city, we look at three key areas the first one, of course is to optimize the energy that we use today. I think it's no longer acceptable just to use energy like we like we always have, like it's an endless supply of something that we, you know, we never have to worry about running out of. It's really important that as we transition to this future renewables that we're quite conscious about how we use energy when we use it. And there are technologies and infrastructures available, as many of us know, to help optimize how we use our energy and how we use it efficiently. Secondly, we, we work to decarbonize the energy source so we either do that by looking at onsite renewable generation. And typically, you know, the first thing that most people do when they embark on a net zero's journey and certainly in Australia is that they put some solar on their rooftop. And we know that in Australia itself we have the highest penetration of rooftop solar in the world. And it's, it's quite a simple and easy and affordable thing to do today, but what are the next steps. Part of the challenges with with the infrastructure, the energy infrastructure that's already in place is that our local grids can't cope with that peak that we see in the middle of the day when the sun is shining at its brightest. So how do we overcome that how do we look for, you know, local storage solutions are the batteries and thermal storage etc to help balance that peak load. How do we look at shifting our energy load it very much ties into how we optimize energy consumption when do we use our energy throughout the day to help to help manage those peaks. And certainly, we look at the way we interact with the city how we often one of the key aspects is, is typically mobility. How do we get to and from the city how do we travel to and from work or to study or to play and what do we do when we get there do we do we have to jump in a car to move around the precinct or can we walk you know how do we, how does that work. And how can we better optimize the way that city operates so that we can make more energy efficient choices. For example and one of the examples I can think of which is a great example is actually Monash Monash is Clayton campus where they've actually pedestrianized the entire campus so once you get there you may have to get into a car to travel to campus but once you get there. You're out you're on foot and you're able to walk across the campus freely or travel and you know scooters and and others and other things. But it's completely pedestrianized so that there's no risk of that interaction between humans and cars which is a really lovely way to get around and enjoy that natural environment. So, of course, you know all of this is is wonderful but but how do we actually get from those three concepts to actually delivering a net zero city. And the very first thing that that we do is to go and seek feedback from the inhabitants if you like of the city of all the precinct so the people that work there. The people who run businesses, the people who might study there go to school there, etc. And we seek feedback on how they think the city is operating, how, how in love with the city are they, and what other things that they would need in order to be in love with that city and for it to be that perfect place to live, or to play, or to, or to study. And then from there we develop a roadmap. And when I talk about a roadmap for the Australians on the call I'm not talking about a document that might just talk to ideas. We actually formulate a plan with specific projects that need to be carried out with the timeline and financing options that will help achieve the city or the precinct to achieve its vision, whether that be net zero or climate positive whatever that that vision is. And it's very practical and it looks at the, what we believe this, the three different layers of, of projects that need to be undertaken in order to achieve net zero. The very fundamental layer is that layer of infrastructure so what are the physical assets that we need to install in the ground on top of the ground where that on top of a building whatever that might be to help optimize that energy use and to decarbonize that energy source so that's the very first fundamental layer and these are often the projects that take the longest of course infrastructure projects need to be very well planned. They need to be very well engineered so they they often take a lot the longest and in the roadmap, our roadmaps will define the timelines for for those to be undertaken. Secondly, when we look at services. So what are the services that we need to provide to the residents of the of the city or the users of the city to help that to help them make better choices when it comes to energy. So for example, the next time you go out and buy a car. How do we make sure that you have all of the infrastructure and the services available so that you make that decision to buy an electric vehicle and not an ice vehicle. And finally, the top layer that layer that really provides the integration between everything is the digital layer and the data that we can collect and optimize to help run our city buildings better and more efficiently. If we take a quick look at a couple of case studies. The first one is the city of Springfield which is in Queensland in Australia just outside of Brisbane. This is a city that we're working with over the next 50 years to help them create a net zero city by 2038. The city is about 25% of the way through its development so has about 45,000 residents today that hope they hope to have that up at around 115,000 by the year 2038, which is also the time that they hope to be net zero energy. This is a is an interesting city because what we've got here is a partially brownfield city there is some built form in place there are services, train stations, schools, hospitals, etc already established in the city. There's also a wealth of greenfield. So what we really have the opportunity to do here is to at the very heart of the planning stage is to is to be able to ensure that the infrastructure required those parts that need to go in the ground the cables that need to go in the ground. They can be there from the beginning, and that's a great advantage to have. There's also a challenge to make sure that that infrastructure is there in time for the buildings to be built and for the and for the residents to to to come to the city. So this is a wonderful example of where we've taken feedback from the city's residents as the beginning in through our 360 city scan, and then we've built a roadmap. Combined with the feedback that we got from our residents really showed that we needed to focus on five key areas in the development of the city. And they listed up there on the screen, the first one being urban how do we make this a beautiful city, a place where people want to to live, work and play a place that has open green spaces places to feel that your while living in a city still connected to nature that was a very very important part of the feedback that we got from the residents of Springfield mobility how do we how to again how do we make sure that the choices that people make are either to purchase an electric vehicle as their as their next family vehicle, or to take public transport to to get to and from from their work how do we make those decisions easier for people and stop them jumping in their their ice vehicles buildings how do we ensure that the building the built form in that city is built to the highest standard, so that we're already meeting part of that energy optimization goal before before we before we get started. Of course energy being at the heart of it, how do we, how do we generate energy in the city how do we store it and optimally optimally use it across the city over the next 20 years. And then of course digital, how do we make sure that that city remains connected and smart. With Monash University my colleagues on the phone today Scott and Kendra we've been working together for a number of years to to look at. Firstly the wonderful work that Monash have already done which Scott will speak to to now. And from that from that point, how can we help them take the next step to get all the way to net zero. And we're in the very early stages of working together to help achieve this goal. Again, with with this particular example we're working in an entirely brownfield precinct so how do we best go about that that building retrofit that we need to to undertake the. The, the infrastructure that we need to build roads that will need to dig up all those sorts of things you know those challenges that will have. How do we do that in a way that still allows the city and the precinct to operate as we as we work through those challenges, but we're in the very early stages we've just finished a roadmap that outlines the projects required for Monash to achieve that net zero goal. So certainly a very exciting project and case study to to work on over the next few years. And I guess just just to end what I would like to say is that, while this is a huge challenge to take our cities to net zero and to create these linking cities of the future. I think, you know what we can acknowledge is that there are solutions that are available today to be implemented today we know that. If we needed to we could reach net zero today, if we could snap our fingers and have that infrastructure in place, we could achieve net zero in our cities today so this isn't an overwhelming problem that is is unachievable. We have, we have the answers today. And what we know as well of course is that the rate of technology and the rate of change in the digital world is that we will the quicker the more we move on through this process that the more wonderful solutions that we are going to be developing together as a society. And that will take us there quicker in the future but just like to end on a note that says you know this is an exciting time to be in the world and to be creating these these cities of the future. Thank you Kendra. Thank you Anna for that. And thank you for everyone who's putting questions in the chat box you can also put them in the Q&A. So our next speaker, which has given a good introduction to is Scott Ferrara. And I work with Scott and Scott is a leader in net zero emissions strategy development and implementation with a deep understanding of the opportunities to reduce emissions across the energy transport and building sectors. And as I just mentioned, as Anna's started to introduce, we're looking at transitioning our campuses, Australian operations to net zero emissions by 2030. And the program aims to find translatable solutions to enable broader transition to net zero emissions required under the Paris Agreement. So we're going to start on the micro grids and their role in achieving net zero emissions and the learning that we've got from establishing a city scale micro grid at our Clayton campus. So, over to you Scott. Thanks Kendra and good evening everybody. Lovely to be here. And just like Anna, a shout out from the lands of the Kulin nation here in Melbourne as well. So as Kendra's spoken to and as Anna's alluded to, I'm going to talk to the experience we've had at Monash University on our own net zero journey and just share some of the technologies and approaches we've taken to work towards our net zero target as well. So Monash itself we committed to net zero emissions across our four Australian campuses. Here we're an Australian based university with four campuses across Melbourne. We also operate globally as well. We committed to getting to net zero back in 2017 and this was for our scope one and two emissions across the built environment. So for the electricity and gas we utilize to run our campuses. This doesn't cover transport emissions as yet, but I'll touch on that a little bit more lately and scope three emissions are generally out of scope as well. We do have a small vehicle fleet that we do offset currently at the moment for for our commitment. The vice chancellor at Monash University made a very strong commitment in terms of providing the capital budget to deliver on this net zero target as well. So committed $135 million to this transformation. I really it was to help play a leadership role and demonstrate what is possible and what can be done in the space. But also as a research and education institution. It was also an opportunity for us to link what we do operationally with our infrastructure. With leading research in this space and then also using those assets to help feed into the education we provide to the leaders of the future as well. So and it touched on the living lab approach that we're taking, which is which is key to helping shape our program but also focus externally on how do we share the knowledge from that program. We were lucky enough to win a Momentum for Change Award through the UNFCCC back in 2018 for this program and the leadership position we've taken. And so we've been lucky enough to attend a couple of cops in the past so disappointed not to be in Glasgow this year. So I'll be a bit of context for you. I guess as a university we do run cities with our campuses and the scale of Monash's operations are actually quite large. This is a summary of the emissions from our Clayton campus, which was mentioned previously. It's the biggest of our four Australian campuses. Pre-COVID used to have about 50,000 people a day would attend this campus to work, to study, to live and enjoy themselves. And it equated to about a fifth largest city in Victoria in Australia. So it's a big operation. You can see from an emissions point of view from us, we have the challenge of both emissions from gas and electricity that we use to heat, cool and run our buildings. We are based in Victoria, which has a really emissions intensive electricity grid and hence why you can see the skews in that. The energy source is probably about a 50-50 split. The emissions intensity grid electricity is large in Victoria. As you can see, there's about 80,000 tons of CO2 emissions per year from this campus and that's about 80% of our emissions. We run at about 100,000 tons of CO2 per year as well. So in terms of the transformation that's required from the built environment perspective as the owner and operator of cities, we see it in four ways and we borrowed this from our colleagues at Climate Works Australia who helped shape decarbonisation pathways and worked with us to develop our strategy as well. So really we're looking to the point Anna touched on efficiency. So how can we make sure that the existing building stock we've got is retrofitted and is operating as efficiently as possible? And how can we ensure any new builds are built for the highest energy performance standards practical as well? Which is a challenge in Australia. Building quality and building standards in Australia is far below world standards in this space. And many of you based in Europe would be quite shocked to come into Australian building in winter and appreciate that it's far colder than anything you've ever experienced in Europe. We are also shifting to 100% renewables as well. So need to source all our energy supply from renewables both from onsite and offsite sources. And then to one of the questions earlier, we're also focusing on electrification. So that shift away from natural gas so we can run our operations of 100% renewable electricity as well. This is largely for our buildings, but also we're focusing on our transport system as well. We then also look at storage and the smart energy management aspect as well. So how can we utilize the thermal storage within our buildings, but then also onsite energy storage? And I'll touch on this in a bit because the key trick here and the biggest challenge from an implementation perspective is the integration of all these different assets. So you can build these things individually and you can inch your way towards net zero. But as you start to scale up, how do you integrate all these different assets so you can reduce the costs and the time to get to net zero as well, which is where the challenge lies and I think where our next part of this journey is going to be really interesting to see. So I'll run through some updates on our performance and what we've done to date. So from an energy efficiency point of view, and a big shout out to Kendra on this front, she's really driven this program. Also driven a lot of the graphics, which we'll see today, so thank you Kendra. So from an energy intensity point of view, we've managed to reduce our energy intensity by 24% from 2015 through to 2020. And that's through a mix of building optimization programs. So this is tuning buildings to make sure they're running as efficiently as they possibly can. And then also a really large scale LED retrofit program. Lighting consumes a significant portion of our energy consumption. So these programs rolled out across our campuses to replace LED lighting as well. So the benefits of this obviously in terms of cost savings are significant, but also in terms of a scalable program, these are commercially feasible technologies today and deliver immediate payback from an energy point of view, but then also from a maintenance point of view as well. From an energy intensity perspective, the reason we use this metric, you'll see that graph there that our total energy use hasn't declined massively over time. That's because we've grown significantly as an institution. So the university's footprint has been growing, but we've managed to reduce the energy consumed per square meter down as well. There's been a big focus on making sure our new builds are built to a high-performing standard as well. So colleague Rob Brimblecomb and Kendra have worked very hard focusing on a passive house standard approach for our new builds. And it's been great to see the building up there in the background is Gillies Hall at our Peninsula campus, which is a passive house certified student accommodation building. So it's over 100 beds. And it was actually the first building of its type certified to passive house standards in Australia as well. So it's got a high-performing thermal envelope on it and really high performance in terms of energy efficiency compared to a similar building on our Clayton campus, which was built recently. It operates at about a third of the energy consumed on a per square meter basis as well. It's a bit less dense than that building. So it runs at about 50% less energy per bed than that. It's also got high performance in terms of indoor air quality as well, which is another one of the co-benefits that we get from pushing along the extended. We've also been pushing to make sure any new builds are all electric, just to make sure they're ready for that transition once we get to 100% renewables. And we've managed to certify one of our most recent buildings, which is more of a teaching and learning building and commercial office space if you like, to passive house standard as well, which is the largest building of its type in Australia to meet that standard. In the bottom right, you'll see our new chance very building, which was designed with passive house principles in mind. And again, it's another high-performing or electric building, solar building as well. In terms of our on-site renewables program, again, another fantastic program that's been able to scale with this commercially viable solution as well. So we've deployed four megawatts of solar PV across our campuses to date. The largest system we've got in place is a 740 kilowatt system on top of a car park. So it's actually roofing cover for a car park. And we're just about to expand this again with the same working with Anna's team at NG as part of the partnership we've got in place. I guess one of our challenges is having available roof and lands place for solar on-site as well. So the generation that you see there probably covers somewhere from 8% to 10% about annual electricity consumption. And we just do not have enough room on-site to shift to 100% on-site renewable generation behind the meter. So that's where our off-site program comes in place. And again, big shout out to Kendra for driving this program. We've signed a power purchase agreement with the Murawara Wind Farm, which is located in Horsham in regional Victoria, a significant distance from our campuses. This is a financial instrument where we surrender the renewable energy certificates which are generated and put the electricity back into the main electricity grid. At the moment, we're surrendering enough to get us to a 50% of our electricity, our consumed electricity from renewable sources. You'll see that graph in the bottom right. Ultimately, once we shift ourselves away from gas, we've got enough capacity in this PPA to cover 100% of our load, which we'll ultimately get to. At the latest, it'll be by 2030 and we'll probably look to bring that forward as we go as we're trying to increase ambition in the space as well. In terms of the electrification space, so for those new builds, we're making sure they're all electric and then we have to work back in to work ourselves on natural gas. We have a high pressure steam, hot water loop, which runs around the campus, which is very inefficient and also runs off gas boilers. We've been taking a precinct-based approach where we're trying to cut across a number of buildings to electric plant. We've been working on a concept study with NG looking at district heating and cooling for our Clayton campus, which we think is going to be the most efficient and cost-effective approach to help us switch away from natural gas. From a net zero perspective, at a city perspective, this is the highest capital cost piece of work, but also the hardest one as Anna touched on in terms of the challenges of retrofitting a city as you go. This is where having a partner such as NG really helps us to be able to address a large challenge. Over time, too, because this is a large chunk of the financial commitment we've needed to make. We'll go into this program, but also it's going to take the largest amount of time. We'll need the longest time to get there as well. On the microgrid front, I guess what we've been looking at is how do we get control over our assets, both our buildings as well as our distributed energy resources, so those solar systems, the EV charges, our storage, and how do we orchestrate those to integrate as much renewables as we can into our local grid, but then also support the broader network and realise new revenue streams as well. We've received some funding through the Australian Renewable Energy Agency and also the Victorian Government and have partnered with INDRA to develop a microgrid pilot at our Clayton campus. There's a lot more information on that website there, the list of which we can post into the chat afterwards, but really this is helping us optimise our own energy use and reduce our own energy costs, but also to access some new revenue streams as well. We're also working a lot in the space of digital buildings where we're really trying to bring these buildings online so they can respond to some of these grid signals, but also using artificial intelligence to tune them and operate them. We've also got some battery storage systems installed as well, which feed into this. I won't touch too much on the financial side of things. I've sort of focused on the technology side of things, but obviously financing is one of the key challenges in terms of getting these systems up and running, and we've managed to raise climate bonds to help cover our costs. Just to wrap up from my end, I guess, we're two from here, and where do we see some of the next challenges? As I touched on electrification, it's a big challenge that's been occupied as we work to shift away from natural gas. We're looking at a net zero strategy for transportation for our staff and students who utilise our cities. This is by far our biggest source of emissions, even bigger than our emissions from our buildings. Likewise, the emissions from our supply chain are quite large as well. We've got to start to work to address those. We're also starting to look at how can we move away from financial instruments for PPAs to shift ourselves towards enforcement and renewables. How can we do this for ourselves, but then how can we also help our community? I'll finish there. Thank you. Thank you, Scott. That was great. Keeping things moving straight along, I will introduce our next feature, Rajen Raul. Rajen Raul is actually an architect, and he's currently a senior advisor at the Centre for Advanced Research and Building Science and Energy. She's called Kharaspi and a CRDF professor at CEPT University, which is where he is in India. Previously, he was the executive director of Kharaspi, so between 2006 and 2021. He worked with the Vatsu Shippa Foundation for studies and research in environmental design before joining the faculty of design where he currently is at the university. He taught design and construction courses as part of the undergraduate program, and he teaches energy efficiency, built environment, energy policy, energy modeling, and simulations at the postgraduate level. The emphasis of his work is on energy performance of buildings and cities, and architectural science education. He's a member of various technical core committees of the Bureau of Energy Efficiency, the Ministry of Power, Naiti Ayang National Building, the Green Building Certification Institute, and the Indian Green Building Council. He also represents India at the International Energy Agency of the EBC Annex 69 on low energy buildings and thermal comfort, Mission Innovation Challenge 7 on affordable housing, heating and cooling, and also the Global Building Performance Network. He's an organizing council member of the Global Cooling Prize, and he's the founder member, a secretary of the Indian chapter of the International Building Performance Simulation Association and serves at IBSPA World as Chair Education. He also serves on the Executive Council of Alliance for Energy Efficient Economy, the Research Advisory Board of Development Alternatives, and the Editorial Board of the Journal of Buildings and Cities. He has several research publications and projects to his credit and has been honored with fellow status both by ASHRAE, which is the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration, Air Conditioning Engineers, and by the International Building Performance Simulation Association. And he's also the first Indian architect to receive that second honor. And he was also recognized by ASHRAE as a distinguished lecturer in 2021. So we are very lucky to have John with us today to talk about his work in data. Over to you. Thank you, Kendra. Thanks for very generous introduction. And let me begin my presentation on the SNED Zero Cities of the Future with a quote which says a lot about how are we really shaping our present. And it's by a German philosopher which says that the future influences the past, it influences the present as much as the past. That means how do we want to see our future? And that is the way probably we need to start constructing how are we living in the present and what kind of practices which we are putting it together, which will obviously influence the future. The painting which you see on the screen is called Miniature Painting in Indian painting style, which actually demonstrates the typical medieval city of Jaipur and how the newer urban scape is also taking place in the same precincts of old. So that basically helps us to understand where we are, what was our past and where we want to move forward. With that, let me give you a little bit of background about what's a kind of work which generally happens in the various nations and India is no different from those contexts as far as the building energy efficiency and net zero cities are concerned. There are several documents prepared at the national level and in India we have very ambitious and very futuristic document called India Cooling Action Plan. India and government did recognize that we will require a huge amount of cooling to keep people comfortable, thermally comfortable in their cities, in their buildings. At the same time, we do not need to sort of impact the environment negatively while we start cooling the people. For just an example that in India, through air conditioner cooling penetration is less than probably about 8% as compared to many other similar countries, even like Pakistan or Sri Lanka or Bangladesh, where cooling has become a need to keep the health and to keep the productivity on. We have seen how Singapore has adopted air conditioning. So looking at these various contexts, Indian government decided to put a document together which talks about near term aims that how do we really make sure that people are comfortable, they remain healthy. At the same time, we don't really use a huge amount of energy which will be required for cooling. Another anecdote information is that amount of cooling would be required by 2050 in India is equivalent to amount of total energy which we are generating right now in the country. So that means that more buildings are going to come up more and more air conditioned space would be required to carry out the economic activities. The document does provide good amount of guidance that how do we really save energy in the buildings and also in various other domains such as cold chain and so forth. Having that we do have a documents which help us govern the energy conservation in the building or energy efficiency in the buildings which we call it a building codes. They have a prescription regarding how to construct a building what should be the thermal performance of the building, what should be the thermal energy performance of the HVAC systems or lighting systems. And they provide us a certain amount of benchmark they provide certain amount of target for new commercial buildings as well as residential building which India is building up. These codes are very much into the into the practice they are getting implemented at the city level through legislation change at the state level. But basically these are these document comes from the, the national government and gets percolated down to the state and at the city level. And at the micro scale, we do have a various kind of guidelines which actually help what you see here is one of the output, where you actually can see how do you really design a system of the building so that you don't use more energy to keep people comfortable inside. At the same time, people can create or rather can engage themselves into the economic activity so let a lot of micro labor design guides are also available for tropical countries for countries like India to design commercial buildings or residential buildings and recently. There's quite a bit of effort going on to make sure that within the even industrial buildings or manufacturing plants, the workers are getting a reasonable amount of comfort. So, at the micro scale at the meso scale at the same time we have a micro scale we do have a certain kind of guidance we do have certain kind of codes or standards, which helps us to move towards and it's zero cities. So India did launch a very ambitious plan for smart cities about 100 smart cities were recognized or other cities were recognized about 100 cities were recognized and they were given a funding to move towards a net zero target or smart city target by by 722 when India is going to become a 75 year old after the independence, so there's quite a bit of movement momentum going on at the national level at the academia level and at the industry level as well. All of these are leading towards a sort of net zero cities in India, however, the path is pretty long very complex and difficult to achieve but at least there are certain kind of positive trends which we are seeing in India. I will give you a little bit of background about how do we really do this, a little bit of technical slide. What you see on a access of this is the scale, which is buildings communities and cities, and on why access, you do see a kind of methods or kind of approaches, which we can adopt to design and later on operate net zero cities. So if you go a little bit more into details at the building energy efficiency level we do have a physics based model. They, they account what is the kind of climate under which building is going to perform. What would their occupancy what would be the nature of the activities inside, and based on that, one can design a building looking at a building physics looking at various aspects of HVAC systems and so and so forth. And when you increase the scale that similar kind of approach also can help us manage some sometimes the climate induced disaster as well, where you're looking at the supply of electricity or unavailability of electricity and how do we really rely on simple solar photo world ice or simply battery storage to make sure that building still performs at the minimum level, and then same kind of approach also can be applied or can be studied at the scale at the urban heat island anthropogenic heat which gets generated in the in the city and which primarily have bearing on amount of energy which we use inside the building so it's a it's a cyclic affair that heat rejection from HVAC systems will remain in the in the micro environment, and hence HVAC system needs to overwork or work harder to provide a cooling inside and by virtue of that their efficiency goes down, and hence we use more and more energy, and so and so forth. That's the one approach that's a kind of the first principle approach by which we try to understand the building level at the community level at the city level that how do we really operate our buildings how do we design our buildings, which can probably in the future can be can be supplemented with renewable energy and can achieve net zero status. At the same time when we start looking at the community level with when you start looking at occupant centric modeling approach. We need to rely a little bit more on a data driven models, leaving or rather balancing between a physics based model and data driven model where occupants are at the center of the, the whole whole game, and trying to understand the habits they have what are the requirement they have for for to keep them comfortable or so basically the building controls the occupant centric modeling. Also intermittent power supply through the renewables is the place where we start looking at the data driven models and all these ones we start putting together. What you can see on the right hand side top is where probably it can lead to net city net zero cities. So, to achieve net zero cities we can't rely on one type of model or we can't rely on one type of method. The message here is that we need to understand quite a few things. It's not just about energy but it's about water, whenever we supply water to the city we do use energy. So water energy nexus. In fact, when we start looking at a food production within the city or immediate surroundings of the city, we also need to look at a water energy there. Basically a water energy food nexus also needs to be understood and again the climate variability extreme climate events and how these things will get affected because of that so basically a climate science and climate modeling also gets into the picture. And these things at the city of am the bird which is about 23 degree north which is on a topic, tropical climate, the highest temperature goes to about 45 degree 46 degree and recent days, recent time we have also started looking at more heat waves, where they're not just a dry bulb temperature but also where the temperature goes up. That means that know the traditional way of keeping a body cool, no longer work so, for example, people working in the, on the construction sites on the on the, on the northern areas, consumption of water or consumption of buttermilk no longer provides them enough comfort, primarily because the wet bulb temperature, primarily because the relative humidity outside the in the outside air remains high and hence, hence the heat dissipation of the body becomes very very difficult. So looking at some of those aspects, how do we really design a cities where it is not that everybody is inside the inside the building but also there are enough opportunities where people can spend reasonable amount of time outside the city and how do we really design a city. So trying to look at some of those perspective, and trying to bring the top down approach, which is primarily based on a statistical or economic models, and trying to look at the first principle approach which is from the bottom and trying to look at the physiology of the people trying to look at the, the physics of the buildings. How do we make sure that our cities move towards net zero and what are the ingredients to achieve that net zero cities is the work which we are doing in the city of am the it also ranges from a town planning schemes to a local local area planning or we call it LAP or recently we have also started looking at transport oriented development that means wherever you have a transport corridors probably you would like to have a higher amount of floor space available so that you can move people easily and at the same time can contain the city in a reasonable amount of geographical location and not really go for widespread horizontal development. And that's where we also try to look at the rejuvenation of the old land or some of the by some of the laws which we have since since about 50 years trying to look at them. Again, how do we really even use the land as a resource more effectively more efficiently. So that's one area where the city scale modeling needs to understand what are the present in present inputs which we are using for town planning schemes. Another important part is about the municipal services and administrative use of administrative data. Typically, in India, as well as in a large part of the world, EUI or EPI is a way to understand performance of the building that means either energy use index EUI or energy performance index EPI, which basically suggests that how much energy. One is using per square meter over a year. Now that that needs to probably re looked at again, because it might be the case that I have a net zero building in a in a in a remote area of the city, or just outside the city, and hence the city is probably using a lot of energy to supply water or to remove the waste from that particular group of buildings or in a community. Or you have very, very inefficient a building in the center of the city and a municipal corporation do not use do not need to use more amount of energy to supply water and so and so forth. So what we're trying to do is that something which is above the ground, something which is below the ground and how do we really put these things together to understand actual performance of the building. Can we really expand the definition of EUI or EPI, and we start including municipal services or amount of energy gets used per square meter of a floor space wherever your building is as a part of your EUI calculation or EPI calculations. And that's where the energy code help us to meet some of the some of these objectives. The present code does have a futuristic scenarios in built in that set. Okay, we are looking at 2021 codes, but we will be looking at certain kind of stringency in 2025. We will make it more stringent in 2030, and all that is getting documented right away so that industry so that in architecture practices also remains informed about how buildings are to be designed five year down the line or seven or 10 year down the line. This is in a context where India is yet to build quite a few buildings and we don't have a building stock which we can, which is required to conduct certain amount of economic activities housing is housing crunch is a huge problem. A lot of people need to be housed in a in a more formal and comfortable houses or structurally stable houses. Hence, this all suggests that India is going to build more buildings in next 20, 30 years. So what do we do and how do we really start looking at the city. And the biggest question comes in is that do we really have a data by which we can handle this kind of complexity. There are various sources, one can rely on whether it is administrative data available with the government or a local body. Or there are certain kind of even within that you have a plan on planning scheme department you have administrative data or your property text data department, or you have a transport department and everyone will have a different kind of types of data and a kind of data and to put all those things together would be sort of nightmare. So one of the technology which one can use is three dimensional models are generating dynamic three dimensional models to either a lighter photogrammetry modeling techniques using drones across the city and trying to create a three dimensional nature of the city which is basically we're talking about digital digital twin of at the city level, and the city is basically Mdabad has about 498 square kilometer and approximately about 0.6 to 0.65 million buildings and more properties within that as well. So how do we really capture the thermal characteristics of these buildings, not that all buildings would be naturally ventilated building not that all buildings would be air conditioned building there would be mixed mode building that means one building, a part of that would be air conditioned part of that would be naturally ventilation or naturally ventilated part would be used as air conditioned during the high summertime. So we capture these kind of dynamics. And for that, as I mentioned we use some of the photogrammetry and lighter modeling. Then we use what you see her is on the left hand side top is the raw data and then that gets analyzed through machine learning and artificial analysis and trying to understand trying to differentiate what are the trees, what are the buildings, and then sometimes roadside temples or cars or lorries also gets picked up as an entity as a building because they are that that sizable in in the size, or sometimes our buildings are also so tiny that they do get captured as a so there are certain kind of intelligence needs to be built in the model. And then finally what you see on the right hand side is we get a three dimensional nature of the city. This is only one layer, one can figure it out how many windows do they have what is kind of status of air conditioning use these buildings will have, and that helps us to understand at least one part of the story which is energy consumed in the city. But then the, what we do is that we superimpose administrative data, we track the municipal services through SCADA system, trying to understand how much water supply is going in that area, or in that particular municipal water supply, how the solid waste disposal is taking place how much amount of solid waste is getting displaced from those localities through through municipal services, and how many tons are getting disposed and also trying to understand what is sort of environmental impact of that. So basically trying to look at the, the municipal services and private property together, trying to understand how the dynamics of the energy dynamics of the environment works in the city. And that's where the water and energy value chain we are we're trying to understand how do we really integrate that is there any chance of optimizing the operation of the city. Just to give you another anecdote that 65 to 75% of the revenue of the city gets used in an electricity bills. So actually amount of water they dispose or what are they mobilize or amount of sewage they discharge into the sewage treatment plants, a huge amount of electricity gets used by municipal corporation by local body so we are trying to optimize, and that optimization also helps us to understand how the how the city should grow in the future. And then when we start looking at this, we also try to look at the renewable energy potential, whether it is through the solar rooftops, or integration of these with the existing grid. And how do we really make sure that in future also we work with the city which is more harmonious in terms of energy supply and energy demand. So that we are also working with the quite a few organizations to understand how do we really operate the buildings in a mixed mode operation that sometimes you operate to building in a air conditioned mode but wherever outside is favorable, you try to understand you try to operate that in a naturally ventilated mode, and then also use of personal thermal comfort systems thermal personal control system that you really don't need to cool entire building, you just cool a place around you wherever you're working and try to make sure yourself comfortable and not try to waste energy by cooling the entire building. So those are the sort of ingredients of buildings where we try to achieve net zero. And with that probably I would like to stop my talk here and would like to wish you very happy Diwali today. Thank you. Great. Thank you so much for that return. So last but of course not least. We have Ryan balancing to speak to us and Ryan is an action oriented urban researcher whose work intersex cities climate change community engagement and governance innovation. I'm also interested in how participate of research approaches can advance theoretical understanding and achieve practical impact and help create more just cities. He's worked at the crossroads of research and policy in multiple contexts in 2014 he had a policy fellowship in the US with the governor of Oregon's natural resource policy office. Graduate studies he led a research project exploring the mechanisms, sustainable city sustainable city networks used to facilitate governance innovations within their member cities. So the work particularly explored the policy and governance changes in Rotterdam the Netherlands, Berkeley, USA and facilitated by the city's membership in the 100 resilient cities network supported by the Rockefeller Foundation. So over to you, Ryan. Everyone. Good morning, good evening. It's a real pleasure to be with you today. I'm going to try to go over my slides as quickly as possible because I know you all have asked questions in the chat and I think all of us would like to engage in a discussion around those. I've heard a lot from my colleagues earlier on the call about the sort of technical aspects of creating that zero cities. But what I like to do is talk a little bit about the human side of this, the governance side of what what it actually means to plan to design and deliver a net zero city from the perspective of the individuals living in a city. So, you all, you all know about the kind of urgency of climate change and not going to get into statistics or any, any of that related to climate change, but just to frame climate change as a as a super wicked urgent challenge. You'll, you'll likely have heard Greta Thunberg's message to leaders at Davos in 2019, where she said in front of prime ministers presidents and the elite that that come to Davos that I want you to act as if you're an emergency. I want you to act as if you're in a crisis or houses on fire. Michael Mann, a climate scientist in the US at Penn University. He said a few weeks ago that we have a shrinking window of a raining opportunity to prevent truly catastrophic climate change, only if we act boldly now, if we fail to act, we will leave behind a fundamentally degraded planet for our children. This is a problem of extreme urgency. But for cities, this is a real challenge because of the complexities that exist within them. Cities are concentrated spaces globally of integrated economic activity, but also social infrastructures. And this is, this is a really key point. In terms of enacting a lot of the changes that you heard you heard about earlier that the kind of smart city changes, the technical changes to the way we build buildings the technical changes to the way we power those buildings. This is a technical problem but it's also a social problem. The fact the way that we heat our homes live in our homes use our homes, as well as the places of work and leisure. And everything else that goes along with with life in a city the way that we access food and produce food the way that we travel from place to place, what we decide to do for leisure. All of our activities are impacted by all about, excuse me, all of our activities help fuel climate change. They can also ameliorate it and these technological solutions that are in place. They need to be integrated with the way people live their lives that these won't just come easily. And that's what I'd like to talk about a little bit here. Thinking about the impact on our everyday social infrastructures as a colleague of mine, Dan Hill talks about. There's, there's a real pressure that a large swath of society is beginning to really cope with and recognize. So these photos are of extinction rebellion protests that happened in London but also globally. Same thing that the photo below of the Fridays for the future which is a youth movement, recognizing the urgency of climate change and need to take swift action at scale immediately. And that's critical and these voices have made a huge difference in the last few years, but this is juxtaposed against the individuals that that will be impacted negatively, depending on how these changes take place. This photo on top comes from a protest that happened in London of taxi drivers because of congestion charge that was due to come into place within the city to help limit greenhouse gas emissions from from cars and also improve air quality. This would really negatively impact taxi drivers who are living at the margins already economically within the city. The photo below that is of the yellow vest protest that happened in in in France and really concentrated within cities Paris Leon Marseille were real epicenters of the same thing. And it was a fuel tax surcharge that was being placed on on all vehicles and it was really heavily impacting taxis and lorry drivers again living at the margins economically so these small shifts that are intended to make a positive impact within the city would negatively harm certain groups unintentionally. So there's a real need to think about how we recognize and cope with the urgency of climate change and those voices that that are making urgent please as they should with the individuals that that will be impacted and making small changes to them is a real challenge. So this comes to an example I'm going to speak with you about for the remainder of my presentation in greater Manchester, where they've tried to take an approach called co production. So they've tried to recognize that they're different forms of knowing and knowledge and what co production is is all about is a cooperative ethos instead of practices it's not a single method. So co production is a concept which is rooted in civic participation that seeks to develop spaces for learning and cross institutional reflection between society, policy business academia, community organizations, all aligned with the spirit of supporting transformation. There's a number of different forms of co production what I'm going to talk to you about today is policy co production. And what this looks at is how you can bring together the different, the different actors the different stakeholders that exist within a city, getting them into a room together to work cooperatively. So this is going to be a whistle stop tour of of a process that that took place in Greater Manchester. So for those of you that don't know Greater Manchester is a city in the Northwest of England. There's a heated competition between Manchester and Liverpool around who is the real birthplace the epicenter of the Industrial Revolution. And Greater Manchester really has a pioneering identity within the local community it sees itself as a leader from the Industrial Revolution to progressive politics around worker rights, the birthplace of unions, also class struggle and culture. But in 2012, this, this map that you can see of Greater Manchester city region, elected a Metro Mayor, and that Metro Mayor Andy Burnham was elected in 2017. And in his manifesto promised to accelerate the city regions carbon neutrality ambitions, which he proclaimed would be led by experts, but crucially city stakeholders in a public debate to determine a new goal which would be announced at what he would call the Green Summit. So there was a big process that took place and I'm going to talk to you about the kind of four different pathways that co production manifested in this given process. So there was one around what was called the Green Summit steering group this this collection of individuals representing universities, large employers large manufacturers, different community based organizations, but also key minority and also not typically engaged in climate politics locally. Then they were listening events. So there is a number of photos you can see here. This photo this photo this photo and this photo all are of listening events, which engage different stakeholder groups and in the city region there were 42 of these in total that have engaged over 1400 individuals, and they got into an indigurity looking at if we're going to make these huge changes within the way we live our lives, looking at the sorts of buildings you just heard about from Rajan. How can these buildings improve the way that that we live. How can alternative models of energy enable residents to, to use electricity more efficiently so they're able to take that money that they're saving to use for electricity because Anna talked about switching from internal combustion charge internal combustion engine vehicles to electric. What does that actually look like from the perspective of an individual. How can we move them from a car into public transit how how do you make essentially the green option, the best option, because it's the best not because it's green. Then there were two green summits. There's there's a photo of green summit workshop here another green summit here, and then thematic expert groups. So these were groups of expert practitioners that looked at what came out of those listening events and using their technical knowledge to distill what that would look like into a policy roadmap. So, this first roadmap was called the springboard report which essentially distilled everything that came out of those listening events and an initial green summit which took place in 2019. And at this point, there wasn't enough consensus to move forward and say, we know what to do moving forward this is a policy we can put in place. It was a moment in time and capturing that. And there was a commitment within this springboard report to produce an additional plan five year or excuse me one year later, which was the five year environment plan and this is the pathway that Greater Manchester has taken to become carbon neutral by 2038. This is a plan adopted before the climate emergency wave that that swept cities recently. And it's a big achievement this plan what what went into it all of the ideas from lots of city stakeholders, just ending with a short quote from the mayor on co production, who he recognized the importance of really listening to the ideas stories and priorities of communities within the city region and using that to shape action, and also recognizing climate change will only be solved by taking a human centric approach, using the ideas of residents to inform policy. So for co production and co producing climate action there are a few. There are a few interesting lessons that come out from this story. One is around the need for organizational commitment and embedding and a culture of co production within the organizations convening these processes. So co production is something that can only be realized. If local authorities recognize that they're different forms of knowing and knowledge beyond that of just the normal actors they engage with, and this really takes a commitment to co production. There's also a need to develop non traditional distribution of power. So typically in a policy design process it's the local authority the local officers that are that are writing the policies writing the plans. And the other stakeholders are on the margins are left with soft ones of power which can be fuzzy and amorphous, but for co production, there has to be new articulations of power bringing together, both formal and informal. And finally co production is a slow messy process which goes back to the challenge of urgency co production is something that takes a lot of time to build trust and respect between different actors that are involved in these processes. And you don't necessarily know what's going to come out this process initially was designed to take a year, but it ended up taking over two years. I would argue that that led to a more robust outcome, but because of the urgency, this is a real challenge. And because this is a shared process outcomes can't be deterministic. And so I'll leave you there. And I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you all today. And I hope that we all together are able to really make net zero cities of the future because it will take all of us. Okay, thank you back to you Kendra. Thank you, Ryan. And so we have a bit four minutes left. A lot of the questions thank you for them in the chat and the question and answer box have been being answered as we go along. And I suppose just for myself watching the questions come through one that are I guess a common theme that I've seen come through is the question of waste, particularly as we build new buildings as we demolish buildings. So that's coming out of buildings and the I guess how does that fit into net zero cities. And so show me we go around the zoom and see if everyone wants to have a little chat around waste so I'll start with you and your thoughts around. Are we doing, are we making things worse by building, building new and building new net zero cities. Yeah, it's, it's the eternal question and a really interesting question Kendra and I think part of what we need to do. When we when we describe building new cities is that I think we need to utilize as much of the existing infrastructure as we have available does require us to build some new stuff. And I think necessarily we need to knock down all of our old buildings and build completely new ones. I think, I think it is really important to be mindful of that, of that waste situation and, and, and noting that you know as we do construct and use new materials to construct new infrastructure that there is a lot of research going on into, into how we, how do we create green steel for example which is obviously a common infrastructure material. You know how do we start using materials that are that are green in the in themselves and I think that is a question that we can't answer fully today. But we know that there is you know significant research and work going on in those areas and equally then with the infrastructure that we do build and if we think about things like solar panels and batteries. How do we work to ensure that when they reach end of life that we've got a mechanism to recycle those products as well and I know that there's definitely again an enormous amount of investment that's being made into developing technologies to answer those questions. Thank you. Rajan, I'm just thinking in your context of the, the data you're collecting and understanding around improving the building performance I guess do you have any thoughts around materials waste and that impact on that zero cities. And one of the question was that we really need to make new buildings or new cities and at least in context of developing economies like India. Let me give you a number that as per a national building code, we need about 45 square meter offer of a residential space for one family of four. In an average in the in the country we have about 21 square meter. That means, so I'm talking about 210 square foot or 450 square foot. So there is a there is a gap which needs to be bridged. That means there are there has to be some more building construction needs to happen. However, the construction, new construction and material we always give this lock in period kind of argument that if you don't construct with appropriate material which can help you construct in a comfortable manner. That means you will be locked at 70 70 years and you will not have a chance to change the building. You may have a chance to change your light bulb or ceiling fan or air conditioner in five seven years. But if you do wrong things at the building, we get locked in for 70 years, and hence it makes sense to build a building which is comfortable. That also reduces the cost on our operational cost on poor people or those who cannot afford electricity. But the challenge is such a wide that we need to construct fast, we need to construct affordably, but at the same time we need to construct something which provides a comfort, and that's where the intersection we are right now dealing with. Thank you. Thank you. Right, I'm going to throw one question to Ryan Scott you're going to get off Scott free. So it's a question actually that came out of Anna's presentation about questioning the plan to phase out fossil fuel in the system was sort of missing from a diagram but Scott then to talk about how we've got a commitment to phase out natural gas. From your perspective of engaging with the community, I guess how would you engage with the community around that idea of phasing out fossil fuel going all electric. Yeah, so it's a, it's a huge topic and something that I think merits a bigger discussion so so I'll kind of keep everything I say simplified and knowing that that it's overly simplified. So this is a challenge in the UK for example, that's that's mainly controlled at national level every country has has a different way of generating and distributing power, but phasing out fossil fuels in the UK is something that that's determined by the national grid, which is a nationally regulated organization. So for cities, it's about how do they engage with with the different flows of electricity. How do they engage with the national grid around that for so fossil fuels are great because they're easy to turn on and off essentially we're with renewables that the supply is is harder to regulate. And this trickles down to residents to understand with residents, when are they using electricity, and are they able to change their patterns of when they use electricity based upon when it's available. So it's something controlled at a very high level but it has impacts on the ground. And this also then has impacts for the sorts of costs so in the UK fuel poverty, people not being able to forward natural gas now but it will be electricity is more and more homes become electrified for their heating, aren't able to afford energy to heat their homes because in the UK we have very leaky buildings. They're not very energy efficient. So this is another issue if we're able to reduce the cost of electricity, so people can heat these leaky homes. Is it necessarily a good thing, if they're using more and more electricity, if it's renewable, or do we need to switch to as Rajan eloquently spoke about the real building construction to make homes more efficient, so that they're using less electricity to begin this place. So the issues are really complex which require bringing together local national and super local that the kind of neighborhood level to understand the linkages and complexities between something like an energy system to understand how you can transition from from coal to renewable sources and that also I didn't speak about leaves out the whole worker side of this the just transition aspect, the need to engage workers that are involved in the system so it's a hugely complex challenge. Thanks for summing it up in a few minutes. So it is just past whatever time it is in your time zone it's just three minutes past the end of this session. It's just past nine 30pm here in Melbourne. So first I wanted to thank very much Ryan Anna Rajan and Scott for their presentations and sharing their knowledge today. And we'll be available on the website for the conference after and I believe presentations are also available. And I'm sure all of this because we'd be happy if you wanted to reach out to them via LinkedIn. If you had any further questions for them. And we'll finish it there. Thanks everyone. Thanks Kendra. Thanks everyone. Thank you everyone. Thank you.