 One of the questions that has come from from a couple of you is the question are there any circumstances any circumstances whatsoever in which the army might intervene in the governance of Egypt again that's a predictive question don't play me play them especially the person with nice handwriting it's probably up to you the question is directed to I mean if you ask me of course I don't I don't want this to happen but okay now this is a question and talk in I mean everywhere in Asia people when things getting really difficult people to start to talk about why the army can't come now and put order in the street we people are suffering from instability security instability we're talking about I just said that this morning 10 more than 10 million pieces of weapons between Egyptian hands illegally without any license and it's not again my figure because somebody in the morning said it's where from get you this figure I this figure has been announced by the former prime minister of Egypt it's not my figure so I assume it's correct figure I'm not sure if the prime minister will lie but I don't think so the thugs everywhere in Egypt Egypt is not secured anymore like before not only Cairo I'm talking about the entire Egypt when people sees that they said oh we need somebody to put order in the street we need to move freely I don't like my kid to be kidnapped and somebody will call me and and tell me you have to pay ransom to give you a kid back which is happening every day people stop you in the highway and get your car with a machine gun in daylight so when people sees that they said oh we need the army to come down and put order in the street so they are hoping for that this is the last line of defense they are talking about that's what they wish but whether the army will do that or not that's another thing again people are expecting Egypt again I'm sure my friend and others were some others will not accept what I'm talking about but people they're talking about this in Egypt now that the country will we may fail the country will make collapse hunger revolution to be in the street people will come and and broke your door and take your things from your home people are afraid of that people are really scared about that so they say before getting that why not the army comes down again and put order in the street so it's a wishful thinking but whether the army will do that or not very doubtful unless it is the last thing you can do unless this is the only way to save the country when really things get really ugly that's something else in my opinion the issue of security is a bit overplayed yes there are security problems yes the Egyptian society is less secure than it used to be but I think the security issue is is an issue everywhere I give an example very close example I was before I came to Williamsburg I was in Houston visiting my daughter have a daughter living there and one day she went shopping and then she was putting gas in her car and all of a sudden a guy came and and stole her bag from the car from the other side of the car and and ran away that was 1 p.m. in the afternoon was very sunny you know very nice of course she came back crying to us and we went to the store and we started to ask the guy I mean we realized that there are cameras you know right next to the the tanks that that must have recorded everything so we where's the guy if we can see this or the police can see that and and and can do something and then he said something that was very surprising to me he said do you know how many times this happens told him how many he said five times a day he said at that desperate that particular location that was in front in the middle of Houston Kroger supermarket five times a day at this particular location this is repeated sometimes it is that was of course something a bit minor but sometimes it's more severe than that sometimes people are hurt you know so I'm I'm not saying that you know of course by saying this I'm not invited inviting the U.S. Army to come and intervene and and take charge of the security what I'm saying is that security is now becoming an issue everywhere in the world and the reason for the security problem in Egypt is not because the army is not interfering it is because the police is not doing its job this is the job of the police this is the job of the security force of these people have to be prepared and trained to do their job to maintain security and this is something that needs time because the entire police force was really established based on rules that are not valid anymore that was every everything was centered towards the security of the ruler the security of the regime rather than the security of the people so naturally the police force is not really well trained to take care of the security of the society and this needs time to be established the military can help rehabilitating the police force to be able to do their roles I'm almost sure that we are not going to face something like hunger demonstrations at the streets this is something that never happens in a country like Egypt and and even if things really deteriorates we hope now that through democratic means things are restored if people do not like the ruler there are democratic ways to get rid of the rule so I hope that we really do not have to go back again to the era where the only or the last resort is having inviting the army to take charge of the of running the country again this race thank you this series is one of the other questions I want to ask the general Dr. Daddak talked about separating the role of the police and domestic intelligence from protecting the government or protecting the individual do you agree that the role of internal security has changed and what does the process look like whereby Egypt a cure reacquires the the domestic security that had characterized Egypt for many decades prior to 2011 having said that the army doesn't want to go back to the street and and put order in the street but again they have been forced to go to the street couple months ago by an order from the president existing president in Port Said the Port Said's of course it's a governorate in the middle in the Mediterranean Sea the beginning of sewers canal and the north of Egypt for people who doesn't know where it's Port Said and Port Said would at the time getting out of control from the police and people start to target the police and people in Port Said start to target the police and shoot them and kill them and all this and getting inside the police stations and and hitting them hard and all this kind of stuff then the police they said oh we cannot do it anymore please help so the president said that curfew and ask the army to go down as soon as the army went down again as soon as the army went down and the police took their hand off all the military should stop no rights no killing nobody touch anybody in fact the people of Port Said who start what he used to be to kill the officers the police officers and to make all these rights they start to offer tea and food to the officers in the street and this is just an example to tell you how much how much is the nice relation and the and the and respect between the people of Egypt and their army they're hoping they do that that will be really the last line of defense they can use they can go and tell them please come down and put order in the street that's what I just to say a few minutes ago so that's an example that the army doesn't want to go down street but they have been forced to go down to the street and up till now Port Said is still under the army units in the streets and still guarding the Port Said in the street and every time they want to put the police back well they put few of them now there's some resistance so that is the respect between and that example others won't sit out if that that is what's a very successful example for Sayid why don't we repeat it again somewhere else and that encourage people to talk about putting army again in the in the streets let me clarify a point here we are talking about two different things we are you know if we talk about the role of the army to control rights or preserve order or things like that that's that's fine what we are not looking for is to invite the army back to take charge of the political life this is this yeah so this there's a big difference I mean it's or every it happens everywhere in the world where the the rights and the disorder are beyond the capabilities of the police that the army are invited you know to take sometimes during national disasters and things like that the army takes charge of restoring peace and order but this is very different from having the army back in the driving seat when it comes to the political life I can assure you again I assure everybody here that the army doesn't want to touch the political life of Egypt anymore I know that quite well okay another sensitive issue which comes up in a number of the questions here is the role of the army in the military in the economy estimates of the army's role in the Egyptian economy some people say 10 percent some people say 30 or 40 percent there are army owned industries the army operates dairies the army operates they make jam they make water in order to provide not only for the troops but also to provide the consumer market it also provides jobs for generals retire generals I don't like the jumps anyway I don't want to run a dairy one of things my boss says it's like milking a cat it's like having a dairy that works never done so I don't want to know dairy it's apparently works never done what should the role of the military in the Egyptian economy be going forward should it be stepped back what needs to be held to the military for national security reasons and should be allowed to remain beyond the purview of the open market okay I there are a couple of issues that we need to address here the first one is whether the the role of the dominator in the economy is 10 percent or 30 percent or whatever to me this is not the relevant thing the relevant thing is whether this is done I don't I don't even but but but but but more is more important to me is how this activity is being overlooked is this being done under the rules of transparency under the monitoring of the proper organizations and proper civilian authorities that have to to observe observe this and prevent any kind of corruption or whatever okay I'm not accusing the military activities of being corrupt but what I'm saying is that like any other civilian activities they have to be subject to legal monitoring like any other company and this is according to the new constitution it is granted so we are going to see I guess this this is being practiced in a quite in a much better way but there is another sensitive issue over the last 60 years whenever and those in business know very well what I'm talking about if you if you want to to go and do business in a certain remote area on a piece of land overlooking the sea or something like that you can you have you always have to get the permission of the military this is a military area this is of strategic importance this is and you know this is in my opinion is is really overdone and this has to be this issue has to be addressed a lot of the resources that Egypt has like mineral resources for example could be located in lands that are under the military control because they are strategic quote-unquote for for military use whether this is true or not I don't know maybe they are strategic maybe they are not but but this is something that needs to be these files need to be opened and discussed and there is no really good reason for the military to control in all the most of the area of the land claiming that this is these are strategic locations this is I believe this is more much more important than having the military involved in in in economic as a matter of fact being involved in economic activities is it may be good for the country may be good for the economy maybe provides an opportunity for growth but but but the other aspect is actually more critical in limiting growth in in my opinion right I just mentioned today that the Washington Post came and interviewed me five weeks ago and they said it's 45 percent of the Egyptian economy is controlled by the army I'm telling you it's eight percent and I said that today this afternoon and this eight percent it's very easy to know it's eight percent or more for the tax authority in Egypt because the army pays taxes for all the commercial activities as well as the what we call the central auditing organization it's a it's a government identity the audit the government and public sector identities in Egypt to make sure that the the are doing their business transparently and and in a good way so this organization comes every year and the audit the commercial activities of the army which is not controlling the economy of Egypt whatsoever because you can have five percent share in the economy but you're still controlling the economy that's not the case in Egypt to control economy at anywhere not only Egypt the states in Europe anywhere you have to do one of two things number one to control the banking business or to have and to own few banks strong banks then you're really playing a big role or important role in the economy which is not the case and the Egyptian army does not own any banks or even having a one percent share at any bank in Egypt whether it's public sector private sector or foreign banks nothing none number two to control any economy you have to be involved in heavy industries heavily which is not the case again in Egypt the army does not own any heavy industry factory in Egypt at all what they do or that has been asked to do is to be involved in small industries like John when he said bottling water bottling water drinking water because that was a short a big shortage at the time that like now in Egypt we still have big shortage now and they said please produce some bottling water to save the shortage and they did that but they are not involved at any industry food or or dairy or anything to compete against the private sector not a single factory again the existing administration the existing president asked the army when we because actually a few months ago it was a big shortage of bread and bread is a very sensitive issue in Egypt it's not like the bread here bread in Egypt it means life or death it is very very important issue and it's heavily subsidized and and heavily subsidized by the government then it was a big shortage of of the bread so these they asked the army please go and do something about it and they opened a big bakery producing three and a half million piece a day selling it on the price and the normal price with the highest quality it's not like the small one it's a really good one and because in Egypt the the normal bread is like that but the other one is big like that anyway and the highest quality good quality the point is that the the prime minister the existing prime minister went in helwan that was in helwan helwan is a poor area and he opened and and actually launched that bakery so they don't they don't want it for instance this this bakery they don't make any money out of it why because it's subsidized from the government so they put from their own money the cost of that bakery which is a huge bakery automatic one to produce three and a half million piece a day without taking anything one of my friends here my colleagues here Khalid was standing in the morning they can make profit sometimes they do the service without profit to make people happy so that's what they do so they are not involved in heavy industries they don't control banks and most of their production is service production without competing to any public sector or private sector products thank you um you agree with me i know that you know a lot about that because of the gaffe there was discussion earlier about how we're sort of in a transitional period and one of the points i've been pushing you on is are the things that aren't subject to negotiation one of the questions that's come up from a number of you is the question of israel egypt's strategic orientation not only vis-a-vis the united states far away the relationship and the relationship that generals any talked about but the relationship much closer which quite frankly doesn't enjoy a lot of public support in egypt are there parts of egypt's strategic orientation which should not be subject to democratic processes are their treaty commitments which egypt should commit it will not touch regardless of the desires of whatever parliament and president or in power you asking me yeah oh okay i know what he thinks i'm waiting for you this time your answer first it's nice to see him smiling yeah i always smile but not now i mean our position is very clear and very well known it has been you know publicized many times is that egypt is a country that respects its international commitments whenever there is a treaty or you know an agreement is signed by any government this is something that is respected by by our governments and this is number one number two egypt is is is very much interested in having peace okay particularly at this critical stage of its history the last thing that egypt would need right now is to get involved in any sort of conflict with anybody this is this is natural long term i mean the question is we're in transitional we're thinking long term are there things that should be walled off yeah as egypt thinks i'm getting to that okay the thing is that as you said the relationship between israel and egypt has not been very popular and that was actually applicable during mubarak's time not not not just now i mean the relationships were never normalized as people wanted when the treaties were signed okay which indicated that it that there is something wrong and this whatever is wrong has to be fixed and and the egyptian people believe that egypt has always been respecting its commitment in accordance with the treaty while is it hasn't and this is probably one of the main reasons for not really being very happy and and for the treaty not being very popular in egypt as a matter of fact i met president carter a couple of times during the last two years in he visited egypt as part of his activities in observing elections and he also once visited us in the constituent assembly and he told me very clearly that he 100% acknowledges that egypt has respected its commitment to the treaties while israel hasn't of course president carter was the guardian of that treaty and particularly that was related to to the candidate accords when it comes to the rights of the palestinians many aspects of the related to the rights of the palestinians were really included in the camp david accords but they were never respected but i believe the the situation will definitely with the long term it will change because now before israel was it was very easy for israel to deal with one person close a deal and and and things are done but right now in a democracy as you said israel must realize that wherever the egyptian people is looking for will be reflected on the acts of the of the of the administration and so this will definitely lead to more i hope more work on the israeli side to take care of of its commitments respect its commitments and and this is the best way to maintain peace this is in summary what we've been doing right we do have a peace treaty which i believe has to be changed as soon as possible i hope the from my point of view it has to be respected and it is respected so far the point is 33 years ago 79 when this peace treaty has been signed there was an appendix called security appendix item three and five they're talking about zone a b and c inside d in in the israeli side and it tells you how much units and soldiers and officers and weapons you have to keep at every zone a b and c 33 years ago situation was not like today today we have iran involved in the area they're supplying hammers with financially and technically and weapons they will do at the time there were no tunnels under the border between egypt and gaza strip now we have hundreds of tunnels underneath smuggling weapons and products and goods between the two sides going and coming back which is very very dangerous in egypt for egypt in particular uh again political situation was different hamas was not there at all hamas was was there was no hamas at the time or at least there was no hamas in gaza strip at the time so the political situation has changed the security situation inside synai has changed now we have in synai the younger brother of ayman al-zawahri which is the head of al-qaeda he's having his group in synai called salafiyah jahadiyah muhammad al-zawahri and he is the one again between two brackets responsible for killing the 15 officers army officers in in fifth of august last year according to what information is still available with the help from gaza strip people when came from through the tunnels and they did what they did 15 times exploding or blowing up the pipe gas pipeline from egypt to israel has been done by them so everybody's saying that muhammad al-zawahri the head of that group in northern synai is taking orders from al-qaeda from his brother we don't know yet is it true or not but they are brothers there's no question about that so the situation is different completely different now in the area do we have to sit down again and talk about zone b and c in particular forget about a i think it's an essential it's a i think it's a must i think we are late for that we should have done that long time ago or at least a couple of years ago and i'm saying that every day in the media in egypt in the television when i have the chance to talk in one of the programs i mentioned that it's good for everybody that we have to sit again in the table with the presence of the american side because they were the present at the time for the that treaty at march 1979 and i think we have to sit down and talk about it i'm not talking about the israel they are very touchy regarding any items in in the agreement we don't want to talk about the agreement the agreement and take it aside we're talking about one appendix security appendix two items in particular and i know exactly which clothes i want b and c yeah i can tell you but item item one to five in clothes number two item one to six in clothes number seven that's what we want to talk about if we do that believe me it's good for everybody rather than that the diplomatic relation is kind of normal kind of normal egyptian ambassador was not there he is withdrawn and he's in kairu now for the last few months according to the to the order of of the existing administration in kairu after the gaza i would say raid but the israel ambassador comes two or three days a week right the israel ambassador i was just saying tell aviv what comes every day every week once a day yeah once or two days yeah one day two days but there is no embassy in in kairu now because the the their embassy has been attacked several times and they said they're gonna try to find another place which they didn't up till now so but i would say there is only three uh administrative attaches or something they are in kairu but everybody else is not there but legally officially yes the relation is is there legally or officially they have a diplomatic relation between the two sides but it is not practically on ground we're running out of time let me come back to one of the points that you first open with and that is thinking about military education young people had to educate people into a different kind of civil military relationship than egypt's had for the last 60 years if you're thinking now about how to get egypt to where you think egypt needs to be 20 years ago on the civil military side what are the steps you need to take with the military what are the steps you need to take with the civilians to educate them to know enough to both have some oversight of each other understand each other and not be threatened by each other well i i mean i think the united states role is not to obviously dictate how egypt is going to govern itself and how these things are going to work out but i think there are things we can offer to help with obviously we have a long-term relationship with the military uh now going into its third decade of really a strong relationship their officers and and nco's come to our schools and part of our officer education is the role of the military and the democracy and they're certainly exposed to that i think one of the things that's critically important is you know we we haven't done anything like that on the political side i i know there was an issue when our state department went over with a couple million dollars and started ferry dusting it around the streets and it was concerned as to who was getting that money and who the parties were and how they were handling it no offense michelle but uh you know and so i do think what we've lacked on and we could help with is some way we coordinate civil military assistance in developing capacity it you know we i heard this sort of back and forth that you went through about use of the military and security missions we've used our military we we back we federalized our national guard the governors have called them up in circumstances uh you know our our military has been used for domestic issues if you go back to the race riots in the seventies and all we went up to the capital military district the marines and had bright control but we were always under civilian control we have a law posse comitatus so i think there are things in terms of the way you structure it how you develop the capacity for civilian leadership in in these environments uh and and still take advantage of what the military could provide i do agree they they are respected on the street by and large in in egypt you don't want to lose that respect certainly i think you could gain more respect by seeing not just a strong military but a strong uh political development as the parties develop as the institutions develop you'll grab the models that you see that best fit you you know democracy has many different shades and flavors that every time i go to the uk i'm trying to figure that democracy out you know when i sit up above and watch the parliament go at it but you know uh so it will be something that has to accommodate your culture has to accommodate you know in your case there's a very strong religious undertone to this how much of secularism and modernity impact on that how you sort it out you're probably in a better position to do that than many of the other countries in the region that have much more difficulty with that so if you ask me what the u.s. role is i think we need to continue this relationship with the military we need to really focus on this uh on the education piece the cooperation piece and keeping stability in the region uh staying together and being in a military term interoperable but i would like to see much more investment on the political and economic side to help you with institution building and again not dictating but finding a way that it reaches you know what's culturally acceptable and how it works for you you know we couldn't have had two people like you sitting on the stage maybe 10 years ago in this kind of discussion three and and the fact that your friends and you could disagree with each other you're heading in the same direction and there's going to be bumps on the road and maybe you can't see it now but i have faith in you know the the oldest civilization in this room i would just say one other thing about retired military officers don't hammer him too much i think our governor here in virginia is the retired military guy so uh look at that he'll be gentle with us see do i come in uh i i i perfectly agree with the journal zeny's remarks and i guess uh we are we are egypt is in a stage now where everything is being redefined not just the relationship between the military and the civilian the there has to be a definition of the of the how the political life is being run how the institutions are established how the security is maintained how the economies run everything is under definition this is a transitional period it's very important to to try to lead as peaceful as possible this through this transitional period but in our view the most important thing to happen is to complete the establishment of the democratic institutions and egypt compared with other countries in the region that went through similar conditions i believe that went really very good steps compared to these countries we we have an elected democratically elected president we have a constitution we're about to have to complete the other chamber of the parliament and this is a priority to once we establish the democratic institutions we've been in a very good position to really really find everything in the country and head and go and lead a much better path for the prosperity of our country general well i think the army now enjoying a really excellent relation with the civilian side i'm not talking about everybody in egypt but at least with the majority even some of the islamists now they they give the same respect and and same kind of appreciation to the egyptian army again i'm we're not talking about changing i fully agree with at least once with my friend here but we are good friends anyway that yes it will take some time definitely and and changing the the the idea of having the army in the same life with the civilians and the army will not be involved in anything you do his job only i think this is again the perception this is what the army wants the one thing which i like really to to to mention that the egyptian army now with the with the highest qualification of of being ready to do his job and other jobs civilian jobs like what are we talking about and others is going to be involved whether he likes it or not in the security in internal security of the country for a while whether this will be appreciated by some groups like the islamists in egypt or not but again with the condition of the police force in egypt which is very weak and they are not very i would say professional i don't like really to to to take talk bad words about them but maybe they need help that help will be provided only by the army and this is what the people is going to see in the future so the question is are you going to see the army again in the streets in in my assumption yes this is a very sensitive topic which our panelists have handled with great skill insight please join me in thanking cloning wilmsburg for hosting us thanking them for sharing their wisdom thank you for coming