 Just a few minutes ago there was faith in Mutsulish and the ladies especially their children and I was touched. People are going through a lot of things, a lot of things and now we are in for the discussion of the day. A discussion of the day is self-awareness and sex education. I think that it's not easy to discuss in African setup because of how we were brought up, how we were told that some things we should avoid until we call them tabiambaya, they are known to be tabiambaya. So that's what we are going to discuss today and it's already posted on the social media handles that is at White Fire. We are asking at what age should you tell our young ones, should we tell our young ones everything about sex or everything about what people do, what most Africans do at what age should we do it. We are not alone here with professionals, those who are on the field doing it really, doing it hand on, those who are hand on and they are two ladies being WCW ladies there, we have here two are embos, how are you? We are good, thank you. Why are you our loves? You are laughing at my introduction. This is Josephine and Jerop, I love your names and now you are going to tell us more about you starting with Jerop, everything about you. We can't finish everything about you today but my name is Jerop Limo. I work with ambassadors for youth and adolescent reproductive health program and organizations that works and advocates for integration of sexual productive health and services with HIV services as well. So majorly I am a youth advocate in the sexual productive health space, I am a leader in so many spaces as well and I am a mentor for adolescent girls and young women at the community level. Wow, you are one in many. Yes, yes. Or many in one. Many in one. Can you have social media handles? Yes, I do have social media handles. My name is Jerop Limo and my organization's Twitter handle is IRPAYARHEP. Oh, that's nice. Then we have Josephine, Josephine, how are you? I am okay, how do I beat that introduction now? My name is Josephine Achengo Djambo but I prefer Josephine Djambo for some reason I don't like my maiden name. Look at you. I work as a program assistant at Youth Industries Kenya which is a community based organization that works with young women, specifically young women and girls in rural and peri-aban settings. So we work with women in Kaka-Mega, in Limuru. We work towards ensuring that they are aware of their sexual reproductive health and rights and also they are aware of the referral pathways for sexual database violence. We also offer sexual support to those who have experienced violence. We do advocacy, policy advocacy to ensure that the needs of young people are addressed at the policy level. So that's basically what I do. Our organization's handle on Twitter is YC underscore Kenya. On Facebook it's Youth Changers Kenya. On Instagram it's Youth Changers Kenya. For me, Twitter it's Josie to 54KE. Yes, I am also a leader in different spaces. Yes. Wow, you guys are leaders. We are leaders even if you are leading our lives. I've never heard such a professional panel. I don't know this segment, specific segment is called Girl's Talk. So I think we are in the best space for you. And people watching most of our audience are people of that age you've been mentioning about. So you have come to at 54 and let's have this conversation now. We demistify everything about what people should say, should feel about this sexual and sex thing. We were even skeptical if we should utter that word on air because of how we were brought up. I don't know what is bringing all this thing. What do you think? It is very hard to talk about these things yet people do them. I think the main reason we don't talk about it is how we were brought up. We have been brought up in an African setup where these conversations are tabu conversations to have where these conversations are conversations that are hard behind the curtains. Things people do, things people don't talk about. You're not allowed to mention your sexual organs and call them by name. It's just how we were brought up. It's sex and sex conversations and reproductive health conversations is a tabu. That is how we grew up. The same way we see people in the Europe or in the Maju countries, a mum telling you I love you and giving you a kiss on your cheek is normal. It's very normal. It's normal there. But for us, it's very weird actually. The fact that now you work with these people who want to change things, do you call things by their names? Do you? Yes. Do you call things by their names? The idea is, she mentioned worries to not mention this name. So we are trying to break that. So how we are breaking that is if you are having a conversation about sex, we will have that conversation. And if we are speaking about sexual organs, we will call and spade and spade. We will not sugarcoat. We will not call it the names we are outside here to do or whatever. We will just call it with their names as they are. To just break down that barrier of the shame that comes with the conversation. Let me ask you another thing. Do you feel that our question to the public is at what age should we discuss these things with our young ones? Do you think that at the point where a child is longing to say mama, say babat, say my nose, say my mouth, are you saying that they should also learn to call those other private parts with their names? Yes. That during that time? Yes. It's a child speaking by two years, we need to have that conversation. And I think the reason why you are asking that question with your face looking kind of funny. It's because when we say that children need to be taught these things early, the first thing that comes to people's mind are, how am I supposed to tell them about sex? No, just tell them these are your private parts. These are the names that they have there. So that if maybe someone touches them in a certain way, they are aware and they come and tell you by the way, so and so touch to be here. As opposed to them not knowing, they won't tell you because they don't know it's wrong. So just as long as they can talk and they can understand, just start that conversation. What is your opinion on this? It's actually very important. Whatever my colleague just finished saying is equally important. We've responded to cases in the community where a girl was molested and defiled and she couldn't even explain herself. She didn't know what to say because nobody told her that this is what this is called. When someone touched her and she didn't know what to do, she didn't know what to say, but for her, nobody has ever told her that this is the name of this part and nobody should have this part specifically. But this had gone on for a long time and because the younger was not aware of the parts and how they are called and what should happen and that it is normal for them to actually be there and this changes to happen, then it creates a whole nation of confusion as well. So it's equally important that even a child, children want to touch each other and they touch each other and they do things and they are innocent. But right now molestation and sexual harassment is so common that if we don't teach our children about it, if we don't teach our children to call their body organs the way they are, then it will be a problem because they might be going through harassment for quite some time, but if they are not able to express themselves, then it becomes a barrier. Don't you think you people want to turn people to be like animals? Animals don't fear anything, they can do anything anywhere, they don't wear clothes, they are just there, they can do even those things there, they don't wait for the visitor to do it. Are you guys turning us to animals? Not really, it is just making you aware, that is it. Nobody is giving you the liberty, the only liberty I'm giving you is by informing you and making sure you have the correct information. Justina, do you think people, after knowing something, they want to experiment, especially children? No, because our experience personally, I was taught about compressed sexuality education when I was in high school and we would have, so when you talk about, so this was the problem coming in, it's not sex education, it's sexuality education, sexuality is a lot of things, yes. So when you put it as sex education, it's like you're only speaking about sex, no, but there are other aspects as well. But the answers of us talking about this thing is not to promote immorality the way it's been said out here or to make people like animals the way you put it, but to just give people information. Because based on the information I got in high school in terms of what sex is, how do you protect yourself from having, from getting pregnant in terms of decision making, self-esteem, all these things. I was able to decide right now, maybe for me sex is not a priority, but in case I want to have it, there are these options of me not getting pregnant. So this is for you to have the information. Once you have all the information, you are able to weigh and to help you decide. At what age did you have that information? I started receiving information when I was in class 6. Or 6? Yes. I knew nothing. I knew nothing. I was hearing things, people were talking about things and I didn't know what they were. So when I went and asking around, you know when you hear certain things, you ask your friends. Your friends tell you a different version, you ask the teacher, the teacher. It's only videos that remember, those are adults things, those are supposed to be telling me about you. Home I couldn't even ask a thing. So while it's not for the people that came to school and spoken to us about all those things, I don't think I would be who I am now in terms of information. Maybe you could have messed or something. Exactly. Maybe I would have put a pregnant in the middle. Do you have experience about that? At what age did you learn about the sexuality thing? For me it was different. I got into this space while I was still in high school. High school? Yes, high school. I started being a peer educator at a facility. Okay. So the role of a peer educator is to basically handle young people. You're trained, you're given information, just basic information. And now you get to guide other young people as they come to the facility to receive services, any sort of service. So I got information and honestly at this point I sit and tell myself if I didn't have this information most likely I would have messed somewhere. Okay. Most likely. So it's like some people have messed because they didn't have information? Not necessarily. But information is power, right? Knowledge is power. You're sitting here because maybe you took a certain course and you're able to look at the camera and execute your shots and everything. And even whatever you speak verbally because you had information because you were taken to school same with us. Not that everyone who messes up and nobody necessarily messes up in the SAR HR space. We don't say people mess up. Things just happen. Oh. There's no messing up. There's no messing up. And the reason we are saying this information is because I have a colleague and a friend who she got pregnant at around 14 or 15 and when she got pregnant for her she knew yako na minyo. Her tummy is growing yana jwa ni minyo. Ni minyo zileja tumbo. Exactly. She dewarmed. She dewarmed. Nothing. Until she went to the hospital she was told you actually pregnant she has no idea what pregnant means. She couldn't know how she got pregnant in the first place but I only had sex once. So what do you mean I'm pregnant? Now you see. So we are trying to demistify certain things but by the time you are deciding to have sex you know what you are doing and you know the repercussion that comes with it and you are able to see am I able to take up the responsibility that comes in case I get pregnant am I able to do that if I am not then either I'll abstain or use a contraceptive. Okay. Now let's get to what we've asked the public now you are professionals because we've been to this for some time now. At what age should we tell our young ones everything about this thing I want to give you a typical example I have a friend called Moris and she has a daughter called Peris so Peris tells the mum where children come from and the mum told her it's God who gives children so she went to church to pray to be given children she really wanted a child so she prayed she prayed loudly that God give me a child I want a child now I don't want these toys don't talk back they don't cry they wanted real children so somebody had her and they just laughed just laughed at her nobody corrected her and after sometimes she went to school asked people the older girls about it and she told her that it's God from sex so she came back home and demanded that she be connected with somebody to do that with her so that she can get a child this drives me to at what age the way we ask the public at what age should we tell our young ones everything about sexuality how old is Peris now she's about your age but back then she was in class 2 the question that Peris had asked that is a very different child from another one will just ask where do children come from those are two different kids this one meaning by the time Peris is coming to ask the mum about where children come from one she's had things outside she just wants to confirm from the parent to see if the parent will lie the fact that the parent lied kama mambia they come from God gave Peris an opportunity to go ask outside let me go confirm if what mum said is actually true so she went ask outside she was told how children are found and they just to prove what the mum said that children come from God so innocent she went and prayed and also laughed at her as opposed to correcting her so as parents your child is coming to you to ask your question it means one they already know two they are trusted enough to ask you and three they want to see if you lie to them so I think for Peris the child already had some level of information so the conversation would be for Peris the conversation would be what have you had so the parents have sat down and asked that's the approach she's given exactly because it means she has some information so the parents need to know what does my child know to what extent do they know because you have sex and then you have a child but then they don't even know what sex is so I think it depends it depends with one the age the age determines what information you give for like two, three years old you just start with the private part you start with good and bad touch and you start about the private part two up to two years old ya because they'll be a kind of kojoa atakuliza mam because I know of a child who they have a sibling a man and a girl and a boy and the girl was like why is my nini different from nani's nini the mother of Rose obviously you don't know her too well she didn't know like how do you handle that you tell them you have different because you are a boy or a girl you are a girl that's why you have this you are a boy that's why you have this so that way by the time they are growing up they know I'm a girl and that's why my parts are different from the other person so it depends one with the age of the child and what they already know I think that's what I would say Avakasin called Lucy she grew up with us we were mostly boys she was the only girl and she refused to be called a girl like if you called her girl that was an insult until her nickname became Lucy the boy Lucy the boy because she was feeling she was different I don't know what comes especially when people feel that some gender is not their gender because there is a dominant gender about this it wouldn't be necessarily because there is a dominant gender the setup you grow in it will be even emotionally and physically and how you feel and how you feel you should relate for others it will be I've grown up in a household full of boys we relate this way we dress this way and I feel like this is cool this is what fits me and I'm comfortable with that and I don't see anything wrong with that but for others it will be body wise biology the aspect of hormones and how inside I feel I feel like I don't want to be a girl I actually behave like a girl I am not a girl because it's how I feel and how I feel I should be treated and how I should relate and how people should perceive me as well so it's not necessarily because of a dominant gender that you grow up in it could be because of various reasons that people decide to be who they want to be there are children as young as as three years old play chamama and they play it real the only thing that they don't do is hiding they can do it in open for Veranda, Kilamtuakeona where do they know this where do they know that things are done this way it's watching it's talking about it it's listening children are the most curious people if you look at kids the way they behave they're the most curious people and they would want to see where this ends they will touch oil at a jipaka mama na jipaka na ni pakalai mafu ta adia pakai le ya kutua kutua tin it's innocently because children are generally curious so they will see to those people are kissing my mum and dad behave this way I saw that Juswin kept insisting that even with comprehensive sexuality education there's the aspect of age appropriate there's a reason a child in play group is doing play group and one in baby class is doing ABCD and someone in FOMFo is doing chemistry and algebra and all these things because it's in progress It's true. It is itching. Why are you trying to cry the child? It is itching. That's what I said. The child will cry if they want to cry and talk about it. The thing is, the crossing line is, if you don't tell your child, you've given us an example, if you don't tell your child, someone else will tell them and trust you, they will tell them the wrong thing. Oh, so I'm not saying I'm talking to a kid, I'm not talking to a private part with this real name in the crowd, maybe in church or maybe in a committee where you are, and say I shout to you kids. Anta, Anta. A kuna ibu, eh, mabia rata kushushu. Mama, I hate it too kwa jina. Obviously, I don't think they would do that. They would do that unless they have to, like for example, like you may say ma, come in and ask if you have a kuna. Say to come here ma, ask if you have a kuna. He plays, like you told them. As opposed to, after the woman has said that if you have a kuna, as opposed to when you ask if you have a kuna, but you are a mother, you know, if you want to have a kuna, maybe you will go to them to the washroom and find out what is actually happening. And maybe they have an infection, you'll be able to see. If you want to have a kuna, and if you want to have a kuna, because you've not had that conversation with them. And if you want to have a kuna, but the time you know what is actually happening, the child has suffered really a lot. Let's now talk about what teachers should do. At what level should we introduce this particular unit to the children in school? Allow me to tell you that the youngest mum we have in Kenya is nine years old. Nine years old. Nine? Nine years old. That is the youngest mum. Yes. Nine years old. Nine years old. That clearly states, you know, over since the pandemic and even before the pandemic, we have been dealing with very high numbers and cases of teenage pregnancies from the, as in the least stages nine. So you can imagine, you can imagine how dire this information is. And I took wamta. Listen to this young child talk, listen to them talk. You know, that tells you that these kids are actually exposed. They know more than you, honestly. I can tell you. I can bring you a 15-year-old who will talk to you. You won't even believe what they are saying. So that brings the need for teachers to as well have these conversations even from Tunandzakusoma Science Class 6, Tunandzakusoma Reproductive Health in Class 6, right? So that tells you from Class 6 upwards, you know, and even from below Class 4, Class 5, you start the introductory part. You start the introductory part. This is my sexual organs. This is how it operates. This is how it develops. This is what should not be done. This is what should be done. Because if you leave it out, a girl will go, anakatiwa, amifurahi, she's happy, innocently and full of naiv. And this young man is not really informed, but he will not be fed. He will not be fed. He will say, I'm a woman. I'm a woman. I'm a woman. So it's naimtoi. But innocently, it's because they don't know and they don't have someone to actually tell them, okay, fine. You have a girlfriend, but this and this are the lines you shouldn't cross. Or this is how you should go about it. Because we say, don't tell me not to do, don't tell our child not to do. They'll be rebellious. They'll do it actually. You should convince them with the reasons. The reasons exactly. Why, what should be done at what time. At what time. And this is not right. And this is right. Bring them together and talk to them. Because most of them, they rely on TV, Google, wella cool boys when you're kukwamta, social media as well. We are a social media generation. So if they don't have access to correct information, the University of Google will mislead them. Do you think schools are giving enough? Currently in Kenya? So currently there is a CBC curriculum and I was privileged enough to review Pp1 to Pp3, the curriculum that was there when it was being created. And some of the things that are there, they are speaking about hygiene, how to brush your teeth, how to shower, how to clean yourself, brush your shoes, your hair, which is good. Those are important things to have. But then also it's not very comprehensive. Because as much as they are saying it's not necessarily there. Because if you ask them, but we have life skills. But then most of the time it's a life skill. One end up P, one after another. It's not really there or the information they are being given is very shallow. And then if you ask, because I remember when we would ask questions about someone would ask, tisha na sexi ni ni, and then they would be like, sexi ni ya watu wakubu. And the tisha has left it, imesema ni ya watu wakubu, they won't have the conversation again. So I think the information is not very comprehensive. The information being given in school is not comprehensive at all. Some schools don't even give it at all. And yet they are still asking why are people getting pregnant? Where are we going wrong? But the issue is you are not giving this information because some will tell you like if you speak to girls who have gotten pregnant at the community, they will say, mi ya tasi kwa na jwa sexi ni ni. Mi sketoak sexi mawa na fanyi hiwi. Mili kwa mwa, siku anta kwa left out, kwa matapia mi ni fa? Mi fa ni. And then na kapata kwa na bol. Adversa na sema, mi ya tasi kwa na join kwa na bol. Mili kwa na kutubu na growth. The casing point ni ni ni nipanda before. Like they don't know. Others genuinely don't know. And then when they get pregnant, that's when they start being told oh, kwa na tapia empire, you are immoral. But then they genuinely had no information at all. Awa kwa na jwa. And because if we say they are given at the school level, the ministry is a bit skeptical about it. They don't want it to be given at the school. So these people are left because we tell them the school is saying but they are with their parents. Parents are supposed to provide this information. Parents are saying no, the church. The church are the ones that are supposed to guide our kids. So this young person na na rushwa school, school, home, church. School, home, church. In the middle of all these things, ah, siya kwa na mesti. Atapatua the wrong information and then we all know the results. You are reviewing that curriculum. Why didn't you add that particular? The only thing we can do during the review of government document, the only thing you can do is give recommendations. It's up to them whether they take it or not. Or so we recommend it. We recommend it all but they didn't include it. But they didn't include it. Any delivery reports you are doing as an organization to maybe increase the information on what our children are given in school pertaining to sexuality education? This is one of the delivery actions. Just holding open conversations about it. We realized for quite some time that we had been, you know, advocating and pushing for comprehensive sexuality education to be included in our curriculum while leaving the community and the parents and the caregivers outside of it because they are the ones who get to, you know, talk to these young people. They are the ones who live with these young people. So right now one of our major concentration is creating awareness on comprehensive sexuality education, having engagements with guardians and community. Ono Lisa Mama bono kumu mwambi anasema sanita ungelele but just sitting down with guardians and parents and women and men at the community level and telling them by the way this is what we have. This we think will help your young people in school, you know, and just getting a buying from them. That is one of the major thing we've been doing. We've been also having engagements with policy makers and policy implementers as well. Like just when I said, we have been really pushing and holding social media engagements and partnering with organizations as well who work in this space as well. Honestly, it's still a major barrier with the church being a major hindrance as well. You calling church being a major hindrance? Yes, yes. The church is a major hindrance. Not necessarily that the church is wrong, but the church think that we, when we allow comprehensive sexuality to be taught in school, we will be exposing our young people to sex information. We'll be giving them permission to go out there and have sex, but which is not the case. The case is we are giving them information so that aki amkana, se wanena kwa boyfriendi ake, atakwa ebol ku decide, eh, by the way, just when a lini funza ticha lini ambea, this and this is how I should go about this. So, let me hold on. That young man will say, by the way, kuna stories are condom ticha lini funza, it is not a must. I can wait. Sex is not going anywhere. So, it's just, the church is a bit sceptical, the same with the ministry of education is, and it creates a lot of barriers, but we are trying to help them see how important CAC is to our children. And to add on what Joropi is speaking about, in 2013, the Ministry of Education and Health and the Ministry of Health assigned a commitment, the Eastern and Southern African Commitment. In this commitment, they were to one, and I quote, reduce teenage pregnancy, reduce the spread of HIV infections among its young people, and also to reduce sexual gender based violence. And unfortunately, nana's been done, because if you look at the data last year, almost 13,000 girls dropped out of school because of teenage pregnancy. So, it means little effort is being put into ensuring that teenage pregnancy is being eradicated, and she'll speak on HIV as well, and also sexual gender based violence. We've seen on TV guys are getting raped, left, right and center. People are murdering each other, yami. All these stories, they're happening and it's shameful that nothing is being done, sort of like, or the efforts being put in place are not necessarily working. And in this commitment, yes, the commitment elapsed last year, because it was supposed to elapsed last year, and if we were reviewing to see, to just gauge what was being done, and unfortunately, little or less, I've been done, because bad old teenage pregnancy, bad baby issues in the community. So, we are trying to push the government, the means of education and health, to recommit when they were signing commitment, so that they are able to work towards achieving the goals that they did not achieve. Do you think there are just ways in which they can be included in the policy, generally maybe from the legislation arm of our government, so that you just push them through our representatives, because I think that's where the parliament and all that. You can petition, you can petition the parliament to maybe legislate something on that, or maybe talk to one of the representatives to give a motion about it, because you know people are not understanding like now, since we started this conversation, I understand it better than I used to do it. Even when I was doing research for this show, I was still like these people are going to spoil our children are going to do it, but no understand it better. Do you think there's a way you can maybe push for legislation or some sort about the inclusion of these materials in the education material? So we do have policies and guidelines that speak to the provision of this information in school, but the issue is implementation. That's our major problem because in terms of bills there was a reproductive healthcare bill that we had worked on for a very long time. And then when it got to parliament, the convolution shifted from it being reproductive healthcare to being an abortion bill and that is how our bill was put on hold. So you see, we are trying so hard to push for the well-being and to push for policies to be implemented and to be developed, but then it becomes really hard on our end when all our efforts don't bear fruit or when they develop the policies yes, but then they won't allocate resources for the implementation of this policy. So that's actually our major challenge. We do have policies in place, but the issue is implementation of this particular policy kissing point of the SR commitment that I was thinking about. Jerob, I'm trying to figure out what exactly you guys want. You want sexuality education to be like part of curriculum to an extent that it is examinable. Like it's one of the subjects in school so that it will be examined at the end of the term Actually yes, that is the idea but remember it must be age appropriate. Again I have said a child in class 6 does not have the brain to understand what a person in form 4 is learning. So age appropriate. The same way in class 6 we talk about now just the outer part this is this part this is this part this is how it works and then when you get to form 4 you're actually learning about the reproductive health itself which is not necessarily comprehensive. So it is just about allowing our kids to actually access this information in school wakwe aware wakwe aware I mean in this day and age nobody should get pregnant and think that I have worms we're in 2021 you get nobody should should be told by the boyfriend that if you have sex one time and you go and wash yourself you won't get pregnant. Nobody should be told that if we have sex standing you won't get pregnant but imagine that is what our young girls are being told that is how our young boys are being sodomized from your experience that's what they know that is what they know that is how our boys are being sodomized and harassed simply because they don't have information and they don't know how to go about it now obviously niki to shameful hatufaiku yongelelia and you will be blamed for putting yourself in that situation do you entirely blame this on the lack of information or don't you think the other factors is the information now the only thing according to you I think the major thing is information and this is based on the conversation we've had with the young people because there was a team we were having a discussion with the young people in Kakamega with young women and you were asking what are the things you've been told that if you have sex and then you do won't get pregnant and one said niku nwe kuk amani joshena ndimu niku poa I won't get pregnant or if I have sex kwa bush ah I won't get pregnant now you see by the time we are telling them about all these things are lies they are made they were actually very shocked and very surprised because that is the narrative of me grow up waki and beewa so the fact that we told them and they are able to tell other people because you've already said where some are calling and saying calling you and telling you just feel thank you the information you give the information you give in many sa idea and I've able to help other people so information is very very important and we need to compliment information and services so when they when they give this information and in case a young person is a service you provide that so information will go a very long way in carving the issues that we have so it's the first step towards reducing all these issues that we are experiencing in terms of reproductive health but again somebody thinks that this education is encouraging teenage pregnancy how that you are telling somebody how to do some things where we will just be going to do it you'll just be going to do it because you've told them how to do those are the myths now around the sex education tell me how you do debunk this how we debunk it is when somebody because we've had conversion where but if you tell them they will want to experience it and based on the we've been speaking to a lot of young people and none of this has happened because usually what happens the approach also matters if you come and tell me just thin do not have sex who is just thin for you I will go have to just prove to that I had a nothing happened but if you tell me sex is there you can have sex but if you have sex remember there's pregnancies there's HIV infection there's STIs so by the time I cut it I'll crack who have sex I'm like okay so if I have this sex and I get pregnant can I be able to take care of this child I would be able to take care of this child so the alternative is if I cannot abstain but I want to have sex but the alternative is there's condoms there's other forms of contraceptive so they are able to weigh because most of the time maybe I receive the information in high school and honestly after I receive the information I did not go and try out try sex and see what they are saying is working no I was able to weigh and decide and this also applied to the people who were taught with all of us we are able to so CSE just enables you to weigh and helps you to make an informed choice based on the correct information that you have from this discourse from this discourse I deduce that the problem according to you is culture and religion if I'm not wrong like this how we have grown up somebody is saying that you are taking us back to you are taking us to the west yes we are at the west and we should not we have our cultures to retain so talking sex with children and with teenagers is a west thing is not an African thing that is culture don't you think you guys are eroding us are making us for tomboy honestly no I don't think I'm eroding you are because if if we didn't have teenage pregnancies if we didn't have how do I put it young people who are married who are even below 18 you know it's also a barrier of ensuring that our children grow to fully finish their school you know explore other avenues find something and make something out of their lives rather than and I'm just giving an example because not necessarily that religion and is a major barrier but also poverty in our lifestyle as well me grow up madhare sendeo akuna information mama kuangi tada kuangi as well so jona menikatia to go closet jona menikatia you love me fine we have sex I get pregnant I can't stay at home so me and John decide to take our single house there and we start our life and it becomes a cycle it becomes a cycle where as a young couple we are rooted here we didn't finish school akuna job akuna do what do we do we are limited to this location to this environment and to this lifestyle as well so it's not necessarily taking us to the western but just also allowing our young people to access information so that we are able to make decisions poor it's we are trying also to modernize and to do away with some cultures which are not right like child marriages for me genital mutilation as well these are cultures that we are trying to end it's not necessarily that saying that child shouldn't be married it's a western thing no it is wrong it is wrong to marry a child this is a child you're putting them in situations that they shouldn't be in physically, mentally, spiritually and even sexually as well so it's wrong you're doing FGM why are you doing FGM at this era it's not necessarily westernization so sexual comprehensive sexuality education is not about how to have sex it's not about how to have sex that's what people think that is what people think it is about these are my organs this is what should be done this should be should it be done someone should not touch me if they touch me that is sexual harassment I can go to the police station report if I am raped I can I know don't wash your clothes don't shower rush to the health center get your perform and do this it is just empowering a young person on what to do how to approach life even as you grow up how to make a certain decision the lady was saying she was talking about marriage she was talking about violence and what to do it is also about empowering young people not to be in relationship where there is intimate violence because it is common right now people have killed each other people have murdered very young potential people you know and why because this young woman or this young man aku kwa na information then we can sit down and talk to solve the issue by the way come out a kibble kuna contraceptives so aku takwa na option aku takwa na reason up at a bowl and then you kwa story and then to begare and then to kusani you have to do an unsafe abortion but church teachers abstainers most religious organizations teach abstainers and abstainers should not talk about other things don't you think this is why you are clashing with the church? so I think we are not necessarily clashing what I would say is honestly if abstainers was working we would not be having teenage pregnancy let's just be honest if abstainers was actually working we would not be having this teenage pregnancy that we are seeing and sometimes we agree it is not yet it may work for those women in Europe it may not work for other people outside so how about to give people options abstinence but then for those who cannot abstain this is the other option so CSE is a holistic conversation it's a conversation about how parents communicate with their kids it's a conversation about what all the government plays in nature and where we are well it's a conversation about self esteem how you make decisions what you need to look at it's a holistic thing it's not necessarily focused on sex alone but there are other aspects as well I think that's where a lot of people misinterpret it I want to say categorically sexuality education is not only about sex there are other things that have been talked about not necessarily sex there are people finally because the term is still on us there are people who ladies who have been abused maybe even by relatives they didn't say it because it was a taboo to say something like that and they grew up maybe hitting men or hitting anything about sexuality and everything because they could not say it they were abused they didn't like it and they could not say it and all that is this what are the things that you are trying to disambiguit so that things become normal so that it is easy to say when you are abused and all that yes I mean there is the reason why the constitution says it is defilement it is rape and you will be jailed for a number of years because it is wrong but we have been raised in a space where I am raped by a relative I am threatened and I have to usiongelele usiongelelele you have to solve too leta ngomembili imeisha no but that has because that has done damage to me and that's why we are raising a generation of young people who are mentally damaged because they have gone through sexual harassment even by house helps we have seen these cases on the TV and we continue to see them so we are allowing our young people niki fanyuwa hivi niki shikuwa hivi niki fanyuwa hivi so that you don't keep quiet and it becomes normal wunomtome they have been molested by their parents for years ever since our child I wish we had the whole day here just to discuss it it's really interesting but you sound like you talk this to girls more than boys until discriminating against boys we are not discriminating against the boys it's just that women are more vulnerable as most women because we are talking about teenage pregnancy the woman's life that will be most affected so that's why the conversation is mostly around women but then we are very cognizant about male engagement which is very very important so yeah yeah, jero up this camera tell us final word final word on what you want the public to know especially from your forte I think the most important thing especially for the young people watching is before you only live once you know before you do that before you yolo before you yolo please always remember that your choices have consequences if you really have to have sex again we are also pushing for abstinence if you really have to please remember we have venues that you can use to prevent pregnancies HIV and STIs and some of these things are very serious there is no reversal there is no reversal at all so make sure you make the right choices remember to follow us as well for access of information from our pages because we talk about this we teach young people as well and we would love to actually ensure that you young people have access to comprehensive information and sexual productive health and rights as well thank you just address the nation my address goes to as always the CS Magoha my address is to you it would be great if you could recommit to signing the Eastern and Southern African Commitment to ensure that you reduce the cases of sexual gender miscellaneous in our country we reduce the levels of teenage pregnancy and to also reduce the levels of new HIV infections so you signing that commitment will go along with ensuring that the reproductive health rights and needs of our young people are catered for today was education we have learnt so personally I have learnt things that I have gone through education system but I have never been told I wish I knew this before I was younger things that I could have maybe helped people to know better now that in this position where I talk to people almost daily but information is power so if you know you will decide so you will make informed decision then this has been good and I think we will have more conversation about this now that now that we know each other I think we will organize so that we have more about this this is why in the morning and thank you for tuning in up next we are coming back to maybe see your comments with the faith Mutsuli keep it locked