 The welcome back is still the run-off and before we went on the break we did say that it's something of concern that almost on a daily basis as it is because before we finish morning the dead in one incident we almost have another one happening in Lagos and I'm talking about the building collapse that happens so frequently in Lagos and we're worried about that and there are things that can be done to make sure that these things do not happen anymore. Ten percent of the population of Nigeria lives in Lagos and this shouldn't be a place that we will not get it right especially when it comes to housing and that's why we are glad to have in the house here the former secretary of the Nigerian Institution of Civil Engineers and the chief executive officer of top engineering construction company Limited in the person of engineer Friday Chukwu welcome to the program. Thank you for having me. Okay let's just go straight to the point building collapse in Lagos and in Nigeria at like but we are zeroing in on Lagos because this is our area right now what really are the challenges that make this possible why can't we just build buildings that will stand the test of time. Okay thank you once again um yeah it's really a big problem in Nigeria especially in Lagos where the incidence of building collapse is so frequent that people may almost lose count because just this year alone we have had two already two collapses building collapse in Lagos so it's a big problem and not just the material loss that we experience the the inconvenience the emotional trauma and everything but also the fatalities involved the loss of lives like the two building collapse that have happened this year alone we have lost one person one somebody had you know died in one of the collapses so is a is a is a big problem and there are a lot of factors that that cause building collapse in in Nigeria ranging from poor workmanship ranging from materials the quality of materials the standard of the materials ranging from poor supervisory activities from the regulatory agencies you know is sufficient use of you know untrained professionals I mean use of people who are not trained to do the the building you know using works everybody now is like the building industry is like an all-commerce affair anybody carpenter can be you know can be engaged to start building electrician can be engaged to start building a trader made supervisors over a building project so it's it's it's a huge problem and you know a qualified professionals are not involved in most cases in most of these cases let me show you let me show you that among all the collapses you have been hearing less than 10% of them involved registered and qualified professionals so you can see it has been all along a field a field play for wax now my question is what what category of people or manpower most and I'm using that word with emphasis must be the professionals because when you're talking about building there are people who go to the building site that in my layman's thinking do not necessarily have to be professionals as it were so what category of people on the side of any building must be professionals and that is exactly the problem what he said now do not necessarily have to be professional if I'm carrying cement with a headpan or something it doesn't be a professional I don't have to go to school it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't show that you you've undertaken the training of how to erect a building from foundation to the various floors to the roof and then to finish it doesn't it doesn't follow it's just like your profession now would you want anybody can anybody just come up and mount this seat and start interviewing people okay my question is that like in my profession now I have groundsmen that will have to move the seats will have to sweep the place and all that they don't have to go to read mass communication for instance or have any training so in the buildings are there must be some people that well maybe because the professionals are there they can supervise them well but these categories we need to know them so that we know that even if you're failing in having professionals this one it has to be a professional so that the rest will fall in place now let me tell you that there are categories in the building process or the categories of workmen involved categories of professional categories of you know the the generality of the the workforce now you have at the echelon at the you know you have the profession at the the person already trained who had gone to university and been trained to you know do that job you know both the theory and the practical they have passed through that then there are also those under them we call them the technologists you know those ones are like people with OND HND you understand then we also have beyond them be you know below we have the artisans or the skewed labor then that's where you have carpenters Greek layers electricians and stuff then even also below them you also have laborer the kind of people you are talking about laborers those one they don't have any skill they don't have any skill at all you just call them a bring mixed dust cement mix mix a one bag of cement poor eight bags eight eight headbands of sharp sand poor nine headbands of granite poor half a bucket of water inside and mix and carry uncle those are the lowest you can't call them they are not professional in fact among all these professionals we can call the skewed ones the message some of you can we can refer to them as professional skewed if they are skewed they have undergone training or tutelage under a professional or under a training institute you know you know we have some training institute where artisans are trained you know there's NDE training institute where they train artisans and there are also other colleges where technologies are trained like polytechnics and other colleges then apart from that if they have undergone tutelage and training under a qualified professional for years and they have been certified they become skewed laborers or skewed artisans it's an eye-opener and I think when we will take a break and get the news when we return the crux of the matter is what are we doing wrong why are these people who should not be on site on site what can the next government that is coming do to make sure that this is addressed so ladies and gentlemen we'll take that break and after the news in genichuku will tell us the possible policies that can make building a strictly professional thing and then they will become safer for us to dwell in let us start up this way it's a Friday so you why you were speaking earlier you mentioned how that you know their regulatory bodies and you know like supervisory situations of supervisory people who are supposed to be in those sites to make sure that things go well and things being placed the conversation around inferior building materials might probably have happened another day but now we're looking at policies that should be put in place to make sure that things go well in the building site as they are supposed to how do you how do you think that the regulatory bodies can leap this problem in the board okay when we talk of policies I don't think we are we are in short of policies in Nigeria everywhere so in the building sector this thing falls quietly on the regulatory engine agencies that's in Lagos they call them last car Lagos building Lagos state building control agency and then they are the the main agency that you know sees to the to the good health of buildings let me put it like that you know that buildings are well constructed and this they are durable they stand the test of time it's for me it falls quietly on last car in Lagos then in other states in Nigeria they also have building agencies building control agencies these are departments of governments you know charge with the responsibility of monitoring first of all they will they will approve the designs because you do your designs it's taking to them they will approve it the structural the mechanical the electrical you know they all the very old designs that you need in a building they will approve so after that they now monitor the construction but you are the client of the person who want to be you must inform them these are some of the things that people don't know you must inform that hey I want to start my build you have approved my building plan or plans now I want to start it you give them one week's notice give the regulatory agencies one week's notice that you want to start off that is to prepare them to be able to follow you up to monitor the construction so now once that is done it is now their duty to follow up on the construction the construction processes by the way building construction is a gamut of processes so it's not just you move from stage to stage from this state to that state from this state to that state so each of those stages must be monitored for the building to be to be healthy or to be safe you know so you start from the foundation stage when you are doing your foundation the regulatory agencies must come to come and check that the enforcement that the iron and the mix of the concrete everything is according to specification or design because all these things are well designed by qualified professional they will say for one bag of cement you can only put two headbands of sand and eight pounds of granite that is the mix so if that design spades first that that is what you must use if you go and use ten heads pounds of sand and fifteen heads pounds of granite to to one bag you have started the building has already started failing right now is that is it that this regulatory bodies are not doing that job because if they know they are they are the professionals and they are supposed to be there to supervise and they are there buildings should not collapse the way they are collapsing is it that they are not doing their job because the next government that will come has to sit up because like you've said it is not the policies that we lack it's not the laws that we lack they are there but if these things are not being done those are the things that we need to highlight is it that they don't do it no they do I have to I also have to point out here that most of these regulatory agencies don't have enough hands and I have to also have to say here that some of them some of their staff are not registered and qualified so only few of them are really qualified so the rest the rest the rest they they are like you know staff that support support staff that help them so but they still train them they still talk to them and tell them they're writing to do when they go to sites they understand but they always go also with a professional so they are understaffed lab staff for instance are understaffed but that is not an excuse though because there are there are other things that they can do there are other bodies there's a body called building collapse prevention guild their their their advocacy is just on building to make sure buildings are you know done safely in in Lagos in fact across Nigeria so they are willing to collaborate with you know these government agencies across board so these government agencies government know about BCPG and we have been talking with them on collaboration so we understand that they are understaffed so and we are ready we they are not saying employ them as and start paying them so I know they are just saying you know recognize and put them in if there are logistics issues you know to go to this you just take care of it okay and that just shows that to say you're willing it shows that it shows that the collaboration has not really begun well bio I leave him we leave him to you mr. Chuku is still here so let's hear from you yeah I wanted to just post Chuku a question as a follow-up to yes the one he's just responded to there are those who suggest that the share size of construction projects in Lagos is way too many for the supervising or regulatory for these to effectively monitor for example if you look at the leaky axis and leaky is whether true or false leaky is said to be the fastest piece of real estate the fastest developing piece of real estate on the continent of Africa today now if you look at the number of staff in the ministry in Lagos or the building regulatory agency can they even monitor the number of construction projects in leaky alone so there are those who feel that if you agree with this question and your perspective will be interesting there are those who suggest that it's high time that the government also engages with private professional bodies to also carry out inspection rather than only limiting it to civil servants what's your reaction to that exactly this is it's like you have an idea of what we have been doing behind you know behind the scenes and we have been talking with with government we know you know i said it earlier that they are understaffed we know that so i will also know that the government doesn't have all the money to employ too many people you know also so the only option one of the options is what he has just said collaborating with other professional bodies such as bcpd such as a Nigerian site of engineers such as Nigerian Institute of Architects such as a Nigerian institution of civil engineers collaborating with them they are not asking for monies they are just asking for logistics support like if we want to visit sites just provide the vehicles or provide the logistics that we need to use to go and visit those sites and make our reports and once we visit sites and make reports act on them because it's only the government last card that have the authority to act to really implement other professional bodies we don't have that power it's only now that president Buwari just did something close to a powering of a little bit you know from the distance this executive order seven that you mentioned and executive order five those two executive orders try to bring in professionals even private professionals you know to to have the you know power to go to sites and see what people are doing so but if if there's no support no logistics support you know it will be difficult for individuals to just work up and go there then on the on the agencies let me say something yes because of the understaffed nature there are things they can do they should you know upgrade their ICT infrastructure or their ICT departments these days you don't need to be even physically there to to supervise yes there is there is a technology to now that we you know that we call BIM BIM building information modeling okay building information modeling you can use that with that you do your planning you do your monitoring you do your organization and all that then apart from that these days drones have become a very good tool to achieve to do so many things we can if if they are able to to to develop their ICT infrastructure they can do far more than they are doing now and they can cover far more than they are covering now so I would also say that if they are listening if government is listening they should expand their ICT infrastructure and explore this BIM this new BIM technology is a new it's an upcoming new technology and even drones you can use drones to support your your monitoring so that is what is there because there's and there's no fear that those things will not take over human jobs no you are already understaffed so the those of you who are there shouldn't fear that if you introduce all these technologies you wouldn't they won't you know you will be sucked no nobody will suck you because you are already not enough and we must require human hands anyway because it is human hands that we manipulate and operate those tools so that that would be part of it and looking at solution are we now looking at other solutions please let me also advise our people when you want to start your building starting from design don't use quarks don't use a draftsman to do your design you say ah this design that engineer is asking for 300 000 this draft man 50 000 yeah give it to him don't do that you are endangering your life and other people's lives that's why we are last year alone we had 84 deaths from building collapse is that small now about and 113 injuries from building collapse alone because you want to save 200 000 or 300 000 you see the problem we are we are seeing and once you are building collapses forget it in Lagos that building would be would be demolished and become government property you see so it's it doesn't it doesn't pay you to to avoid professionals and then the other reason why you must use professionalism because they are accountable all those people mechanics all those bricklayers capping tires traders that you use to survive they they they are not accountable if anything happens on that site nobody will hold them responsible it is only the engineers the professionals that are registered that are held responsible they are accountable and I will also advise government again those called priests that have been responsible for building collapses that we have seen in Lagos and outside Lagos across Nigeria they should be brought to book so as to you know form a deterrent to others because we keep hearing you know the building collapses and then sometimes some are taken to court and that's the end you don't hear about it again let us see people being prosecuted and people being put to jail for these you know failures and collapses okay that is what we want thank you if we if we continue talking anything that has to do with loss of life it will take us like the whole day because we want to dig and dig and find out what really is happening but all we've heard here today is we need a government with the right political will because like he said there are all there are policies that are in place there are laws that are in place and all about the political will may not be there yes we understand Indira Chuku was being very mild and diplomatic we understand that the government agencies may be understaffed but the fact that he was still talking about their stock going on they're still trying to collaborate and all that means that it has not been concretized I think another question we need to ask is why is an agency like that very critical understaffed well the government cannot pay everybody to be there like like by all said the rate of building only in leaky would be so much so that you might need to employ like a million people who can take care of all that but that brings the suggestion he brought as well private individuals why not identify them and give them mandates to do what you cannot be there to do if you see something say something that's what the police say and we have to police how our buildings are being built because we live in there and our friends and relatively in there yes and and sorry just finally yes so finally engage professionals number one then if you're a professional do your job well professionally and then government should also collaborate with other professional agencies there's also a Nigeria construction and infrastructure summit group which is also championing building and infrastructural development in this country or government can you know collaborate with them to make sure that we sanitize the construction and building industry well sometimes your own people could do the wrong thing I hope that you too will have the real part yeah that's right it's a professional make sure you do that if we if we keep having this conversation we might never end like Nyong'o said but where we are very much out of time thank you so much this is where we draw the curtain on today's edition of the run-up thank you so much Mr. Chukwidi for coming on the program the run-up will return but it will be tomorrow I do not forget that we also had Mr. Barrio Huluwake joining us today until tomorrow my name is Uche Chuku Onodo go ICT government when you're talking about building my name is Nyamgul Agadji bye for now