 Okay, good afternoon everyone. So let's get started. So welcome to this week's center of Korean studies webinar. So my name is Anders Carlson and I'm the chair of the center. And today we're very glad and honored to have with us, Professor Adam Bonnet, who is an associate professor in history from King's University College at Western University of Canada, which is also in London, but in London, Ontario. And he's an expert on the foreigners in Korea to the border region between Korea and China, and the kind of interaction that was going on as an MA from Kangwon National University in South Korea, and his PhD from the University of Toronto in 2008. And before joining King's University College in 2012, he was at the Research Institute for Korean Studies at Korea University. His talk today is going to be based on his book titled Turning to What Edification Foreigners in Choson, Korea, that was published by the University of Hawaii Press in December last year. It's a very new and recent publication. And so Professor Bonnet is going to talk about, as I understand, one aspect of that very interesting book. He will talk about maybe 40 minutes, and then there will be plenty of times for questions and comments. And as always, if I could ask you to put your questions in the Q&A box, please not in the chat box. You can put your questions in the Q&A box at any time throughout the talk and then afterwards as well. And then we will forward your questions to Professor Bonnet. So please, Professor Bonnet, the floor is yours. Okay, thank you very much. Happy New Year, all of you. My book actually has a somewhat newer New Year's theme and that I'm talking about people who don't get along with other family members. So I'm going to share screen. So, where, so, my talk indeed is based on my book, although I'm starting with an anecdote that isn't directly from my book. I had to remove it because my book got a little bit too long. I'm going to skip a slideshow. So, in 1771, there was a scandalous event in the Oidong in the Chinese community or the Chinatown in Oidong. And actually what happened was is that to describe some of the people involved in this event, a man called Wang Hanzhong was for a military official with a successful career of office holding, and who is a member of the Genam Wang family dissent group, which was a descendant of a actually a man who had accompanied Sohyun Seja back to Hanzhong in the 1640s after the chosen submission to the Qing. So he was someone who had a close association then with Hyojung, who was the great Ming loyalist king, as it were, between 1649 and 1659. Wang Hanzhong accused another member of claiming to be a dissent group, a man called Wang Hangil, who had just passed the examinations and had done very well in the examinations. Wang Hanzhong spread a rumor that Wang Hangil had faked his ancestry, that he originally had the surname Kim, and had, as it were, illegally associated himself within the Chinese community in Oidong. So the result of this rumor it reached the ear of the palace and of the King Yongjo, and Yongjo brought in Wang Hangil and his father Wang Wuxok in for questioning. And the whole event upset Yongjo a great deal. So as Yongjo saw this willingness to abandon one's roots for financial gain as resembling life appearing within hair. So Yongjo's concern was tied up with a project that he had been pursuing for a good 20 years. In the 1750s, the chosen court under Yongjo began granting special status to a community of descendants of Ming migrants, first in the capital in Hanzhong or Seoul, and then spreading out toward more distant locations. During the 17th and early 18th centuries, the descendants of Ming migrants had been clasped with other foreigners, including merchants Japanese and Dutch, submitting foreigners or Xianghain. So this is the term number four in the list. This term, this category granted them for protection for most personal attacks taxes in exchange for a submission of a tribute and fish to the Board of Rights. And therefore it described the descendants of all the foreigners including Chinese as migrants permanently coming to receive edification from the chosen monarch. After the bureaucratic changes beginning in the 1750s, however, the descendants of Ming migrants in contrast to others of foreign descent were freed from tribute duties were given preferment in examinations along with the descendants of loyal loyal and good subjects of Korean immigrants, so just essentially other people who had ancestors who had done something that made them famous, and were encouraged to participate in Ming loyalist rituals in the palace at the table done, or the altar of great gratitude. So for the members who could claim Ming migrant background, this may represent a major transformation and improvement in their social status. So eventually this, this new identity for the descendants of Ming migrants resulted in new terminology. They, their, their, the terminology through which they were categorized was moved from Xianghain submitting foreigner to a periodal subject or Huang Zhaoyin. This also changed the way they were under the narrative through which they were brought into the chosen state. So instead of being outsiders who had come to accept new loyalties. They were described as Ming loyalists who had come to chosen specifically to avoid changing their loyalties to avoid linking up with the new Qing Empire. They fit in with what was then a core ideological project for the chosen court, beginning in 1704 the chosen court under soup jung established the debodan shrine, where chosen monarchs could sacrifice to first the Wanli Emperor, at the very beginning of this, the shrine, and then later under young to and jungle to the children and whole emperors as well. So to the first and last Ming emperors as well. As many scholars have pointed out, but notably John Oaksa, this process. Arrogated to chosen to the chosen monarchy, the exclusive inheritance of Ming legitimacy, and of course most chosen elites most chosen young beneficials did not accept at least in domestic discussion. The legitimacy of the Qing Empire which they considered a barbarian dynasty that imposed itself upon the Ming and had no legitimate right to rule them. But in a sense it was involved a process of raising the status of the chosen court to the position of exclusive inheritance of the Ming legacy. So this new identity for the descendants of Ming migrants therefore brought them into this official narrative narrative of the chosen court, and also involved transforming their, their own histories their own family histories. And so often when they originally arrived in chosen, they were from pretty uncertain backgrounds they were deserters they were runaways. They certainly their life after they arrived in chosen wasn't particularly prominent, and yet this new status established them generally granted them elite Ming ancestries. And generally of course their the initial migrant was described as someone who had not only fled the Qing, but had fled while resisting violently against the Qing coming to chosen only because there was no more hope. So it involved also a transformation of the status of their migrants and the process of bringing them into official state ideology. In my book I argue that this change tells us a number of things, notably it confirms that for the chosen court before the 1750s subordination to the Ming was not understood, sort of in a nationalist sense as subordination to Chinese people or to Ming people, this contradiction was seen between accepting submission, the accepting the submission of Ming people to the chosen court, and being supported to the Ming in diplomatic relations because of course the chosen court in diplomatic relations, also acted as a subordinate or status subordinate in at least its formal diplomatic language. When Ming migrants were reclassified as imperial subjects and distinguished from other people of foreign descent. This was after the fall of the Ming, well after the fall of the Ming, at the point when chosen itself claimed to be the only heir to Ming legitimacy. Thus represented less a break with earlier practices as a rephrasing of it, and was part of a general trend, also visible in the Qing to treat loyalties as absolute and unchanging. As it involved transforming the ritual lives and family histories of Ming migrant descendants brought into the chosen courts ritual project. It may also be seen or I see it as an example of vernacularization of identity, as described by Victor Lieberman for Southeast Asia. It's not early modern Southeast Asia rather, but what I'd like to emphasize in this paper is, well something that does come up in my book, but I thought I put the focus on it a little bit more in this presentation was how messy the project was, and how messy the process was, that if you read the hagiographies of young of these Ming migrants, it would seem to be a very simple process young Joe and Joe Joe as sage kings are recovering sort of persecuted minorities and giving them their proper status as elite Ming officials. And if you go through the documents however, everything is much messier that first of all the original Ming migrants don't seem to have been a particularly elite status. Certainly when after they arrived in chosen they were deeply mixed up with ordinary people or even people of slave background, and really they're far from being a restoration of status under young Joe and Joe Joe. They're a restoration of a new intermediate status for the descendants of Ming migrants. Moreover, you can find if you look at the records that the Ming migrant descendants themselves who are generally for non elites played a very key role in shaping the status which the chosen court was granting to them. In shaping the status and ways the chosen court didn't much like so I'd like to emphasize in this talk through the messiness of the process. So, to move down. China in status of course originates in, well, broadly speaking originates in China. It's also as used or similar statuses can be found for the already three kingdoms period. So, young, young ours, young Chinese means turning away or moving, turning or moving towards edification or transformation and envisioned people from unstable frontiers traveling to the center to receive the transformation of the monarch. And of course, this is frontier people moving to the chosen monarch to receive edification and transformation from the chosen monarch. In China, certainly it always implied voluntary submission. And of course this voluntary submission was often entirely. That say groups in Southwest China who are forced into submission through violent means would nevertheless be described as voluntarily submitting to the Ming were Ching monarch. In Korea to, sorry. Similarly in Korea, for instance, here's a quotation from no session in 1497. In since antiquity emperors and kings did not refuse people who longing for morality came to submit to transformation. I've not yet heard of a case of outside people coming to submit in response to one who deliberately sought to obtain their submission. So foreigners who received the status were frequently granted. So, this was the ideological framing, which always was voluntary submission to an edifying monarch. The practical reality of submitting foreigner status was that they were granted protection from taxes and military services for a set amount of time, generally in exchange for not engaging in raiding or piracy on chosen monarch. They were also and Northern Frontier. They're also granted often land and oxen to engage in farming. Sometimes they were granted wives and Korean names and clan seats. So the practical matter practically at least according to the great code of state submission. Initially they were supposed to be granted these these privileges only for the first three years after their arrival. But in practice, it tended to become hereditary. So already in the 15th century. There are references to the chosen court trying to restrict the inheritance of submitting foreigner status only up to grand children of the original migrants. So great grandchildren would thus be removed from submitting submitting foreigner status and be required to pay taxes like ordinary commoners. After the early chosen, the number of after the early chosen, there was a major break or major change in the number of migrants coming into chosen during 1592 1598, when of course a major war when the Japanese for those of you don't study Korean history, when the Japanese invaded Korea from the south, and were responded and retracted the response of the Ming Empire, which sent a large army into Korea to respond to the Japanese invasion. Of course, as in any war, people like to stay behind soldiers end up staying behind they generally when I read the records it's inspired by having a bad relationship with your superior officer. By falling in love love seems to have been a major reason for staying behind, or just perhaps finding the conditions on your side not to be particularly good and hoping to find an alternative. And Japanese were certainly when they deserted from the Japanese armies. After an initial year of suspicion from the chosen court. Eventually they were accepted quite enthusiastically by the chosen court, because of course they brought in skills that the chosen military didn't have skills with, especially with firearms with muskets. Ming deserters were a bigger issue, a greater political problem, because of course Ming deserters were were loyal to chosen's own ally or supposedly loyal to chosen's own ally and were abandoning their loyalties to the Ming. However, they also brought in skills that the chosen court needed and so generally seemingly quite a number did establish themselves, even though the being at certain point with the support of chosen, try to repatriate all soldiers remaining in chosen. Another great entrance of migrants into chosen was during the early 17th century, during the wars of the Ming Manchu Wars in Liaodong, 1618 to 1637 that's pretty approximate dating. One group of Ming migrants who entered during this period more or less were Liaodongese refugees. So, Liaodongese Chinese from, well from the region of Liaodong on chosen's northern border, who fled essentially the chaos of war between the Ming and the Manchu. Some of them became involved with military units under Mao and Long that were fighting against the Manchu from chosen soil, and quite a number of them ended up staying. There are also a lot of church and fugitives and that's complicated by the fact that church and themselves had in some cases a preexisting relationship with the chosen state. But these church and fugitives fled the rise first of Pujantai of the Ulla and then Nurhachi and especially fled assimilation into Pujantai and Nurhachi's military militaries as as. So, these migrants, initially at least, especially the Jurchens and Liaodongese were subject to repatriation after 1637, but after 1644 the Qing no longer tried to forcibly repatriate them. And those also all who remained in chosen simply stayed there. There was no longer any demand that they be returned to the Qing. Oh, so these migrants were administered by the chosen court exactly like earlier foreigners have been administered by the chosen court. So these of migrants form near coastlines and were where they paid a tribute, paid a tribute in fish, a boat tax to the Board of Rights. So various attempts were made over time to enroll them in the military, and roll the or impose other taxes upon them. So these attempts attracted the opposition of the descendants of the migrants themselves, who saw themselves as being on the receiving end of double taxation. And also of course at the Board of Rights since the Board of Rights needed this boat tax, this tax and fish to the needed the revenues from it to pay its own petty officials since they didn't have many other sources of revenue. So this troubled people on moral grounds or at least the attempts to integrate these migrants into ordinary comments, commoner status trouble people on moral grounds. So as one official said Han Guanghui said in 1754. He described submitting foreigners as divided between Chinese Revenant subjects and commoners who wandered in from other regions, and said, it is clear that they should not have the same Corvette duties opposed upon them as on ordinary subjects. When they first arrived the Board of Rights provided them with especially generous treatment and worried that they had no livelihood, settling them on the coast, and had them fish for a living. Commoner status alleviated their impoverishment by removing personal service duties, truly the epitome of sage of the sage monarch's desire to comfort people who have come far from far away. So even in 1754, more than a century in some cases since the migrants had come to chosen officials could still talk about them as migrants who needed the special care of the chosen monarch special edification of chosen monarch, and the special protection of the chosen monarch. Now that being said, it was a protected status but as perhaps you can even imagine from the description I've just given, not a particularly prestigious one. Lots of records suggest they tended to marry women of low status background of servile background. They were categorized according or their categorization in terms of how they inherited the status wasn't that much different from how slaves inherited their status. They tended to inherit it on the maternal line, just like slaves. So, not only that the military unit in which many of them were or the more prominent of them were placed in a military unit in the capital. And that was the ivory troops the hun ivory troops ivory troops tended to be used in order to gather up on the otherwise unattached commoners or ruthless people unattached commoners and even slaves in other cases so the very military unit that they were placed in and this are the most these are the more prominent ones were centered in the capital tended to mark them as being a pretty low social status. So, the change, as I mentioned our change happened in the 1750s actually more or less at the time of Han Guangwei's report. When young Joe, the monarch then in charge visited oh you don't in the company of other officials, and was surprised or was given an account of the Chinese community there. One of his officials pointed out that in young non province. Chinese, as well as churches in Japanese were categorized on a core as submitting foreigners they're placed into the same category. This official claimed, rightly or wrongly that many of them were so upset by this status that they preferred to bear the burdens of commoners, rather than continue to receive this protected status. He certainly was very moved by this description. He lamented his own lack of sincerity. And reflecting upon the phrase and the confusion and analytics that there must be a rectification of names called upon the Board of Rights to investigate who was classified as a submitting foreigner. As a result of these investigations. He did indeed bring in a new policies whereby. The descendants of Japanese would continue to be, or their descendants rather the descendants of churches and Japanese could continue to be classified as submitting foreigners. While the descendants of Ming migrants would henceforth be categorized as Chinese or Chinese descendants for the next two to items on this list. They should be continued to be placed under the administration of the Board of Rights, but should be freed from all the personal taxes and military service requirements. So they're also there for free from the tribute and fish. We further investigation of prominent Ming migrants descendants discovered that quite a number were recorded in the compendium of submitting foreigners. They responded by freeing these families from Corvallu labor in perpetuity and demanded that the hands on administration and the Board of Rights should carefully review the names within the compendium of submitting foreigners into order to transfer Chinese descendants into the record of Chinese. And from this point on officials directed their concern to distinguishing both the designation and tax obligations of Chinese descendants from diverse people were in position of submitting foreigners status. The remains of young to injure the chosen court sought out using those records that were available people who could claim a Ming ancestry, having discovered them both monarchs actively encouraged their involvement in Ming loyalist rituals in the palace at the time. Under Jungju in particular, the category according to which mark Ming migrants were defined was changed from Hawaiian Chinese to Hongjoin, which literally I guess could be translated as imperial imperial dynasty person. I translated as imperial subjects in my book. The military unit in which the more prominent Ming migrants in Oudong were placed. The Han ivory troops was also renamed as the Han brigades and from the Han brigades. Ming migrant descendants were selected to actually be employed as debodan guards so to be actually be given a particular institutional role associated with the Ming loyalist shrine the debodan altar. So the language used by the Ming migrant by the chosen migrants was always that of recovery and restoration previous courts as they said had failed to honor the descendants of Ming migrants, but the 18th century monarchs had finally successfully restored the people to their proper moral status. So, there's the, the broad outline of the development. I thought I would. The last part of my presentation I will talk about some of the confusions and complications with this moral status, or with this new tax status rather, and how it didn't fit the moral categories and the descent categories that the chosen court tried to place upon them. One of the more interesting cases and actually quite a significant case for the development of the status was the case of a man called Park Seungbok. This case is recorded in the Sherlock in very simplified terms but in a lot of detail in the isong milk, which is, I guess a Jongjo's diary for daily reflection, and Park Seungbok was one of a number of appeals to of appeals by various, various people to Jongjo asking their punishments to be cancelled or to be there to be lightened. In almost all the cases, including the case of Park Seungbok, Jongjo rejected their appeal. However, in some cases, young Joe decided further investigation was nevertheless needed. And this was certainly the case with Park Seungbok. So, Park Seungbok was, Park Seungbok had claimed or complained that he as the descendants of imperial submitting foreigners of the imperial dynasty were not receiving the same good treatment that they had used to receive. He felt that people of his sort were no longer being cared for in the past. And Jongjo therefore ordered an investigation of Chola province of irregular taxation and of Corvée imposed upon submitting submitting foreigners and also wanted an investigation of this term the confusion of terms wanted the names to be rectified once more. To make sure that Ming migrant descendants were not consistent still categorized as submitting foreigners. As Jongjo said, these days, the teaching of proper social distinction has been declining, and those in authority no longer know how to foster the worthy. As Jongjo has reached helpless submitting foreigner villages. How can this not be most disturbing. It is utterly nonsensical to describe the descendants of imperial subjects who fled to our country as submitting foreigners. An investigation was indeed launched as a result of which the governor of Chola province, Eduxin emphatically dismissed all of bucks and books claims. He declared baseless bucks and books claims accusations of corruption and and irregular taxation. He rejected bucks and books claim to imperial subject status, perhaps not surprising right. Those of you who know Korean and Chinese know that buck is not a particularly typical Chinese name. Of course, the I think it does exist in China as well but it's more typically a Korean name. As it happens, it's also that sort of name that was often given to merchants upon arriving in Korea so the name itself tends to suggest he's not of Chinese origin. Moreover, the magistrate in charge found out that his family had originally used an obviously church and clan seat. The clan seat was a Heng Yonggang, which is of course, hey long time in Chinese the Amor river in in Russian, and was very often a clan seat that was taken by merchants upon arriving in Chosun. His family had his ancestors had later changed their clan seat to something sounding a little bit better. They had changed it to day one, which can be a Chinese clan seat but actually can also be a clan seat associated with the UN dynasty, and therefore was also often accepted by merchants upon arriving in Chosun. So it was a somewhat more ambiguous clan seat. From this edict she was able to assert that it was clear without a doubt that back is falsely claiming Imperial subject status. His survey of Imperial submitting foreigners and Imperial subjects and China province also did not turn up any serious failure to rectify names, or indeed any unjust taxation, at least at the county level. He did suggest there may be some customary payments demanded on the level of garrison administrations or island administrations, and those of course could be quite burdensome I expect. In some regions he did identify submitting foreigner villages, but says discovered that those living in them had no knowledge whatsoever about their own ancestry. And elsewhere he did find that a distinction was made between submitting foreigner villages and Imperial subject villages, although he discovered that in some cases people who claim to be Imperial subjects, just like back to machine. When you looked at their clan seats they had clans seats that obviously mark them as churches or Japanese. So until the third until the seven early 70th century of course the chosen court had in fact granted submitting foreigner clans seats and Korean surnames. But this history seems to have been forgotten by the late 18th century, or at least by edict she from the governor's point of view, the proliferation of the same clans seats among people of different surnames made no sense, suggesting the proliferation of lies. In fact, Pax and book the governor concluded was of the same ilk as other fraudulent imperial subjects. So, so although the decision went strongly against Pax and book whose case became a precedent for rejecting later baseless claims of this source. It also confirmed the term imperial subject or imperial subject descendant as the official designation for those who could establish descent from the country and need other terms largely disappear from the official record, even as the supposed descendants of means migrants appeal during the reign of Joe Joe and soon Joe, their classification as submitting foreigners. To build this classification of submitting foreigners demanding instead to be referred to as imperial subjects. So the board of rights struggled in much the same managers before to distinguish false claimants to being migrant status from legitimate ones. I actually, it's almost surprising that boxing bowls books a boxing books claim was rejected because I have certainly found not very very very spurious claims to mean migrant status, or certainly to distinguished ancestry that nevertheless were accepted by the chosen court. I don't want to go too much over time I did include some possible cases in my paper and I can return to them or I can refer to such cases and the question and answer. But I think I'm going to go to the anecdote with which I began the discussion, which as it happens is not in my book. This is a free anecdote for those who come to the the SOA seminar. So, in the case, which I just described at the beginning of this presentation. Ultimately I'll move up to the top to where I have that. This case involved initially at least another accusation of fraudulent assertion of Chinese origins. It was made by someone of unquestionable Chinese origins one hand john, who was from the Jenna Wang family that had been closely associated with children and had therefore enjoyed a certain status and a certain access to official position, especially military positions within the capital. And he had accused one honey and one book sock as being of being fraudulent claimants to Chinese status that they were their original surname was Kim, and was later changed to one. So, so when young Joe brought them in for interrogation. One, one, one young joining his ministers made one hand gives offense clear, you have falsely claimed to be an imperial sublet subject and falsely settled in the most weighty neighborhood. The crime is great indeed. If you confessed honestly that you may be forgiven. But if you do not you will be punished for claiming a fraudulent surname. What is your original surname and for how many generations have you been claiming the surname one. Over one hundred and common with lots of young people who are participating in the soil festivals right now was entirely uninterested in genealogy and had no idea about his ancestry. He said, I'm too young to know my family history and only heard about my ancestry from the office of military positions. His father was therefore interrogated since they had hoped the father might know a little more about it. But his father one more claim that until his son had passed the exam, he had not known about this change in surname at all. But after his son's exam success. A distant relative Wang Su Han had informed him that his in fact ancestor was in fact a Korean named King, who had been adopted by a member of the general. It was at this point that the tables turned very strongly against the accusers. Young Joe also interrogated Wang Han Jung, asked how he had known about the surname of Wang Muxok, only to be received vague answers and the advice to ask this same sixth degree relative of Wang Muxok called Wang Su Han. And it turned out that Wang Su Han was suspiciously easy to find. He was waiting outside the palace hoping to be called. And this made young Joe suspect that a plot was afoot. He was already angered by the heartlessness of Wang Su Han and selling out a relative and by Wang Han Jung's vague answers to this question. And so, and additionally, so he eventually uncovered that this had actually been a setup. Wang Han Jung had managed to get Wang Su Han to to confirm this rumor, rude rumor and to make this report, likely in order to push out a rival that Wang Han Jung was annoyed that Wang Han Guid, someone he considered considerably below human status, was trying to, as it were, enter into his turf and was annoyed by that and so was trying to prevent him from participating in the same lofty status that he himself enjoyed. This of course was very annoying to young Joe, who, among other things had on account of Wang Han Jung's ming migrant status had forgiven him for a case of corruption, when he had been magistrate of Pyonghe. Wang Su Han, when Wang Su Han tried to deny that he had been in on the plot at all, he tried to escape this accusation by playing dumb, saying that he didn't even know the location of the office of military positions, but this routine did not convince young Joe at all. So in the end, young Joe restored Wang Han Guid and Wang Muqstock to their status, but punished Wang Han Jung and Wang Su Han with exile, and with enrollment for the military tax. Furthermore, a proper investigation revealed that Wang Muqstock's ancestors were indeed recorded in the household registry as Chinese fishermen, a detail which strongly suggested genuine Ming refugee origins. So this brief scandal in the Chinese village in Oidong illuminates the changing understanding of Ming migrant descendants and chosen society. Imperial subject status have become valuable enough under young Joe to attract jealousy and the desire to restrict access to membership. The early submitting foreigner villages had hardly been homogenous, well-policed locations, and had certainly evolved considerable intermarriage. Young Joe recognized this had been true of the Chinese as well, noting that when they first came to Chosun they had all intermarried into Chosun Yangban families. More broadly, though, after all these generations, young Joe still saw the community as Chinese and in fact initially and unsuccessfully sought to police and maintain their Chinese identity. He instructed another prominent Ming migrant descendant in Oidong to prevent further marriage between imperial subjects and Koreans, and to force those who had been intermarried out of the Chinese village, although very soon he recognized that this was an impractical suggestion and abandoned it. He up braided Wang Hanzhong for attacking a fellow imperial subject from Shandong, even though they were not actually related to each other, and accused him ultimately of being the sort of person for whom the phrase, when there is hair there must be lice, he was the sort of person for whom that phrase was intended to describe. In the end, young Joe nevertheless wanted a clear distinction to be made, although such a clear distinction was impossible. As he said to Wang Taeyong, is Wang Wuxuck an imperial subject or is he a Chosun person, clearly assuming that he must be one or the other? So what does this messy process or what do I think is interesting about this messy process? Well, imperial subject status was connected to the Ming Loyalist project ultimately, and Ming Loyalist ritualism was obviously a court dominated process at least in part. However, in order to uncover imperial subject, the Chosun court had to remake people who had not been particularly prominent in status upon their arrival, had not lived in well organized villages and not lived according to well structured patrol lines. I think it's very likely, in fact, it seems pretty certain that Pax and Boak believed what he was saying when he was an imperial, that he said he was of imperial subject origin, when he said he was of Chinese origin, because likely in these villages people didn't distinguish very clearly. Their tax status as imperial subject status was what united them and attempts to distinguish this would probably have been forgotten after so many generations had passed. Wang Han-kyu, for that matter, hadn't been very clear about his own origins, nor had Wang Wuxuck. I think it's also perfectly possible that they had ancestors. Their ancestor was an adoptee, although this may not have appeared very clearly in the records. Perhaps I feel like defending Wang Han-jong to a certain extent. So ultimately, as I argue in my book, although the Ming Loyalist project was driven in part by the court, it was substantially shaped by ordinary people and by people of relatively low status, who also tried to manipulate the new language of Ming Loyalism for their own benefit, or indeed internalise this new language of Ming Loyalism into their own identities. So thank you very much. I will stop share and bring the talk to an end. Sorry. Yes, here I am. Thank you so much. This is a very fascinating talk, a lot of interesting detail in it. And this is an area where I think there isn't that much written in English about it. You really drawn out, you really shown how much fascinating material there is in the sources. And you can really get into stories about people and stories about these families. And I find that extremely fascinating, kind of micro historical approach to it. I do see that we have questions coming in. I thought I start with a few questions and then as the questions come in later on, we can turn to them. I'll just start things off. I was interested by the fact that they were paying tribute, fish tribute. And then the quote you had by Han Guang He then he said that they had them fish for a living. So that was the policy that they were going to be fishermen. Is that correct? I guess it might be because they didn't have any land to give them or they didn't want to take land for someone and to give it to them. But it does seem to contradict some of the kind of concerns that they had about the kind of coastal security. And I mean, what I remember in the beginning of the Choson dynasty, they tried to keep Xiangui under some kind of surveillance and I were quite cautious about them going to the coastal areas, etc. I mean, did they discuss that as a potential issue to have all of them? I don't know how many there were, but in the coastal areas, that was one thing that I was wondering about. And then in terms of this change from Xianghua into Huangzhou in, did it actually translate into any change in kind of social economic position or anything? Or was it just from the state's point of view that they could now say, look, we are looking after these mean loyalists or did it actually translate for them? Which is to indicate that you said they were actually trying to get it, were they just financial things that they were looking after? So that would be my two questions. Okay, so for the first one, that's an interesting subject. I would like to look into some more aspects of this for the 17th century, the more aspects of the boat tax. Of course, after sort of a mid-Sung-Jong, a mid-Suk-Jong rather, the Chosen Court started to more actively settle the island's communities. But of course, before that, indeed, that was a genuine concern. There was a case in the early 17th century where a concern was raised at how good the church and boats had become. Now, of course, worth mentioning that it was, in the early 17th century, it was generally, churches who were sent to fishing communities on the coast. I definitely think Japanese would not have been allowed that far south in the coast. Japanese would have been treated a bit differently. The churches were becoming so good at fishing and had such a large fleet that the concern was raised that they might ally with the Japanese to attack Kanghua Island. That was another invasion. But officials dismissed that. They thought there was really no such worry. I expect it was substantially led by the lack of land, although there were cases. I tried not to get into too many qualifications in my actual talk. There could be, there were land bound submitting foreigners who were then to pay a tribute in cloth, although the book tax seems to come up more often in the records. As far as the change in social status, I think it's an actual, I mean, they didn't actually gain Yangban status, not for the most part, although they could claim some of the bells and whistles. I guess of Yangban status, nevertheless. But they had one tribute duty removed from them, which is probably pretty significant. They were brought into the company of the chosen court during debodant rituals. So they're actually brought into formal court rituals in company with high officials and in company with the monarch. They certainly gained greater access to military positionists. Mostly they participated in the military bureaucracy. So I think it was probably pretty significant. And the very fact that they are given somewhat improved status, I expect improved their ability to resist extra legal taxation, which of course is always a problem on the village level, on the local level. Okay, thank you. Thank you so much. I realized I should have reminded you after the talk as well. So if you please could put your questions in the Q&A box. It's easier for me to keep track. I think there are two questions in the chat box and I will of course forward those as well. But please, if you can put them in the Q&A box. And the first question we have it is from Vladimir Glom. And he asked how the chosen court could manage to keep the Ming communities, the debodant, et cetera, out of sight of Qing envoys. Were they always bribed, as often stated, and were there any Qing reactions to this? I think by 1704 Han Myeong-gi actually found an interesting quotation in the Qing. I think this is actually even with the Kangxi emperor, which by the Kangxi emperor, after the end of the revolt of the three feudatories, the Qing really didn't care very much. In fact, if you, they liked it, they liked being able and here I refer, I don't know, I've been mentioning too many wangs, so I've suddenly forgotten his given name. But a book recently came out in Cornell University, pressed by another man surnamed Wang, and I do know his name. It's just flown out of my head briefly, so I apologize. He points out that in fact for the Qing, the fact that the Ming, that the chosen was, as it were, the ideal tributary of the Ming or the model tributary of the Ming as the Ming itself described it, was helpful for the Qing for asserting its own legitimacy and for asserting its own right to demand subordination from other people. So by 1704, I don't think it was, the Sokchung pretended he was trying to keep it secret, but by 1704 it didn't matter. The Qing really didn't care if the chosen was engaging in Ming loyalist rituals as long as it wasn't too noisy about it. Of course, since there was no one they could ally with at this point in order to attack the Ming, attack the Qing rather. Now of course the rituals themselves were right in the middle of the palace, so they were probably relatively inaccessible to Qing envoys. That was, I'm guessing, another issue. Okay, thank you. The next question is from, sorry, Owen Miller. And also if you could say anything about what happened to these communities of foreigners in the 19th century. Well, that's the 19th century, that's really one Hansen Young's, I have one's on my brain, Hansen Young's topic. But essentially at the 19th century, of course, the early 19th century, which is as far as I really trace them, although I do look at them a little bit up to the 1990s. The early 19th century saw them especially establishing their own publication projects so writing their own biographies in order to assert their assert their own descent group and strengthen their connection to Ming loyalism. They were establishing their own shrines in many cases, although some of them had shrines established before but establishing their own shrines outside of the capital, where they continued to try and maintain their Ming loyalist status, despite what often seemed to be declining interest from the Chosun court. So Sun Young Han has a really good article in Acto Coriana where he discusses that, but certainly there is a bit of a shift. As for the late 19th century into the 20th century, of course they continued to assert this status up to the 1990s, probably some continue to assert this status today, including continuing to use the Ming loyalist calendar at least in publications I've seen up to the 1990s. Some of them, the ones who are associated with Jo Jong-un, claimed an association with the Wijong Choksa crowd, and then also with anti-Japanese activism, I haven't been able to look into those claims in any great detail. But certainly they continue to exist as a separate status with a certain amount of prominence. They produced a lot of their own genealogies. They produced their own publications, their own collected works, which they maintained into the Japanese colonial period. Okay, thank you. And there's a question from Ian Jeffrey. I'm interested in Ming migrants and loyalists living in Korea after 1644. And then were Han Chinese more favorably treated by the Chosun court at that time? No, Han Chinese didn't really get favorable treatment until after 1750. There were a minority of Han Chinese migrants before 1750 that for whatever reason because of their close association with Hyo Jong had relatively good treatment. But that was of course also true, as some will know of the Sayaga Kim Jong-un, a Japanese defector whose descendants were given relatively good treatment partly because of Kim Jong-un's exemplary service for the Chosun court. But generally that Ming migrants, Han Chinese origin people were simply in village submitting foreigner villages and received the same treatment as Germans and Japanese there. They didn't receive notably better treatment. They may have, in some cases, they may have at least immediately after the engine war, just thinking a little bit differently, some of them were able to sell their ability as geomancers or medical experts. And I suppose that sort of skill might have given them some technical skills which would have helped them in local society. But even those who were based in the capital of Seoul had to pay the fish tax, even the members of the Han Ivory troops, they had to pay fish tax, but they went into the Han River to catch their fish, so they caught fish in the Han River. And later accounts describe this very romantically. This is, you know, the typical, you know, the story of the high official fishing for fish without a string, because there's no hope in a world where the barbarous Ching has taken over the Ming. But at the time, yeah, that was just a fish tax. They were being treated just as if they were merchants in that sense. Okay, that's interesting. The next question is from from San Piljin. Okay. So could you comment on the different treatments according to the Hwang Jo-in depending on their status and lineage in Ming China, if that actually if that existed. I understand for instance, that Chin Jin's grandson moved to Korea in the 17th century. I would also appreciate if you could comment on the treatment received by Sayaga Kim Chung-sun and how his experience could be compared to Hwang Hwang Jo-in. Okay. All right. Chin Jin's grandsons. I have not looked a lot into Chin Jin's grandson itself. A lot of these lineages are pretty uncertain. Some of them are incredibly weak to give some examples. One descent group which was actually described by Zhong Zhou as having unusually good sources for it. One group of connection to the Ming was identified by discovering documents hidden in a well. So they placed letters from the emperor in a well, presumably, and this was their evidence of having prominent status in the Ming. Evidence, the descendants used for proving their prominent status to the Ming. There are a few cases that are a little bit better. There is one descendant of Li Rumei who I think probably is genuinely a descendant of Li Rumei because he arrived when people who would remember Li Rumei were still around. But in most cases you have to carefully distinguish whether they actually had those lineages or actually had those statuses or not. And I think in many cases, the answer is no, that their actual connection to Ming China is pretty weak. Or their connection to Ming China may be genuine, but their connection to elite people with the Ming is pretty weak and cannot be proven with any certainty that another example is a descendant of Ma Gui ended up in Shousun and he appears actually in a relatively early record by Kim Yook. But in his case again, there would have been no really very secure evidence connecting him to his famous ancestor. As for Sayaka Kim, that's a very interesting, interesting example, because in contrast to other Japanese Kim Tumsun's and his descendants actually had very prominent lineages. And actually another distinction between Kim Tumsun and most Ming migrants is that he was pretty well recorded. In the Ming migrants there you have a real gap in the records between the 17th century, when we have just scattered records and the 18th century when suddenly we get much more elaborate biographies and much more elaborate genealogies. Sayaka Kim Tumsun of course that after his arrival in Shousun, he remained in, he remained more, he and his descendants remained more or less in the same place throughout the 17th century, and continued to have a relationship with the chosen court during this time when their ancestry was pretty well known. Now I do know that Kim Tumsun, some of Kim Tumsun's writings, some scholars have suggested that they are not completely credible, that many of them might have been later forgeries or perhaps not even deliberately seen as forgeries produced during the 18th century. Nevertheless, his situation certainly in a sense is an example of how prominent you could become in the 17th century through another route, but of course you didn't get, you didn't get imperial subject status. So you didn't enjoy that switch and status, but initially his family and people around him would have been given very similar place in a very similar category I expect. I stumbled a bit that answer I apologize. Thank you. Next is a question from from Chanhee Lee. So thank you for your great presentation. So despite chosen chosen court's efforts. I have a feeling that Hwang Ju-in were not well accepted into chosen society. The Park Sung-bok like your example. And I can think of another Hwang Ju-in Kang Se-jad, who did not integrate into the chosen society. And then what do you think is the reason for that, that they were not accepted that they didn't really integrate into chosen society, despite these policies. I love Kang Se-jad. Thank you for mentioning him. He's my favorite. I think actually they did integrate into chosen society. They just didn't integrate into the more prominent levels of society and I say Kang Se-jad actually did integrate pretty well. So his family. I mean, after all who was Kang Se-jad, he was a migrant from outside of the boundaries of chosen, who ended up on the very outer edge of the chosen state in Hong Kong province. So if he not only did he integrate, he was able to have conversations with Park Se-jad and Nam Goomang, which was far higher status than most people in this initially illegal settlement in Musan upstream from Hueryong. Certainly was much more than his neighbors could enjoy. Ultimately, I think when people talk about them not integrating. The issue is, is I think they were accepted into chosen society, but they were not really acceptable within Yangban society. Kang Se-jad, after all, he married upon arriving in northern Hong Kong province, a post station slave. Now, I said that's integrated in its own way. He's married a local woman. He's apparently on good terms with his neighbors, but certainly that was initially a challenge for his descendants, who are therefore not really because they have slave ancestry are ineligible for taking official position, although of course because of Kang Se-jad's connection to initially to Park Se-jad and Nam Goomang two problems officials. He was able to restore his status right. He was able to, or not restore his status, his descendants were able actually to gain pretty significant status they were freed from slave status and allowed to participate in administration in. Now as for Park Se-jad, I don't know about the level of integration, but Park Se-jad was, you know, within a society that was filled with status distinctions. Park Se-jad was from another group of people with status distinctions and this was submitting foreigners. I think it just about all respects, Park Se-jad would have been Korean speaking. Many of his ancestors would have been Korean, and he would have interacted with his Korean neighbors quite ordinarily. So I actually, I don't agree that they didn't really integrate into Korean society, but that's that I guess that's my answer then. Okay, thank you. Next we'll have a question from an anonymous attendee. So how was the Fan Ching Fu Ming slogan understood by the Joseon court after the Manchuk conquest of China? I haven't seen that that statement in the records. I'm sure it may exist somewhere, but after the Manchuk conquest of China, very simply, the Joseon court between 1644 and 1683. The Joseon court, as for instance, Hote Yong has described, engaged in some probably pretty ineffectual plotting against the Qing military preparation against the Qing and certainly after the Manchuk conquest of China, the Joseon court did not accept the Qing and did not accept the the Qing's right to rule China, although formally in their diplomatic missions to the Qing, they of course acted exactly as they had towards the Ming. The Qing in many ways was much better and much more regular in its interaction with the Joseon court after the fall of the, after their, after the Ming Qing transition. In 1683, however, and especially after 1704, the shift was that the Joseon court at that point no longer could really imagine launching an invasion of the Qing under any circumstances and started to rethink its Ming loyalism internally. So at least domestically, it tended to at least before the 19th century to deny the legitimacy of the Qing and to accept its own exclusive inheritance of the Ming. So, hope that that gives you that that particular phrase though I don't don't recall seeing a Joseon records. Okay. Thank you. So, the town he Lee has another question. And this relates to sources source materials so do you find any difference in sources between Yang Huain and Huang Jun after the 17th century, for example the number of sources, the tone of the description, etc. Well, that's that's excellent. Yeah, obviously this does I mean before the 17th century, our sources are before the 18th century our sources are pretty limited. The person you so nicely mentioned my favorite Kang Sejak is an exception that he gets a huge number of biographies because of his encounter with high officials, already in the late 17th century. But for the most part, both young women and Huang Jun in the 17th century have pretty limited sources. I think actually probably to be fair, not to over stress my point. I think it's probably more likely, slightly more likely for people of Chinese origin to get their names included in records more than people of Chinese or Japanese origin or Japanese origin, although they also church in the Japanese also have their records included in sort of bureaucratic documents like the jungle excited or the soon john one in the 17th century, starting in the late 17th century but especially during by the late 18th century. Of course people of Ming migrant origin, get a huge number of biographies produced about them as the chosen court actively tried to uncover information about them. So you see a real increase, especially in the 18th century, but already starting in the late 17th century, and the amount of records we have for people of Chinese origin. Thank you. Next is from john Lee. So hi Adam. Thank you for your excellent talk. I remember reading in your earlier work that petrol lines in Jeju with presumably Mongol origins took on more conventional household seats during the 18th century. I am wondering if this trend ties into the wider trends with Ming migrants you describe with the shift in change is more tied to changing chosen policies towards its peripheries, or perhaps these two courses are not mutually exclusive. Yeah, that's a great question john of course that's. So, I mean, I would like to look more into Jeju, which is another very interesting subject. But I think these two trends are connected that generally part of what you would describe I guess as the growth of the brokered state. There are new new forms of relationship between the center and, and the areas and the periphery or the areas under the chosen states control, and therefore also tendency to spread. The ten the vernacularization of elite culture and of capital culture and the capital identities towards the periphery. So I think those two trends are connected. It's particularly related with Ming migrants I think it's probably more to do with just changing chosen policies towards its peripheries, and also an increasing interest in peripheral people in participating in the cultural norms of the capital. If that, I don't know if that that makes sense. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, very interesting parallel features. So that was the last question in the Q&A box. If anyone else has any question any comments please. So, in the meantime, so announced the next webinar seminar that we're going to have. So we'll have a short break now we've had three in a row so the next one will be on the 19th of March. The J.P. Park from Oxford University and it's going to be art history. And the title of that talk is rescuing art history from the nation, late choice and Korea between Europe and Japan. Looking forward to that talk as well. I think that might have been the last question Adam. Okay, so thank you so much for a fascinating talk. Everyone for participating and for your questions or maybe. No, sorry. There are more questions. Okay. Oh, excellent. That's another question from Sung Piljin. So was there any special military unit staffed by hangware just like those stuff by former Ming subjects. Yeah, thanks. Thank you very much for that question indeed there were and especially Kim Chung Son and his descendants were associated with a special military unit. I have forgot the name of this unit but it's somewhere in the back of my head. So, a really good article and trying to remember her name, a really good article article in. Anyway, I don't remember the name of the author or the article but there's a really good article which I read, which describes the, the hung way community near near table. And generally, it was interesting about her description because this all actually appears in a household registry is that the hung way who lived within the village itself tended not to be listed as hung way in part because I think it's fair to say the military unit with which they were associated clearly established their identity. So in fact, everyone within this, within this hung way community were one way or another part of or organized into this military unit and I am sorry I've forgotten the name of the military unit but that was true of hung way as well, indeed. Okay, thank you associated with Kim Chung Son. Thank you. And finally, it was not a question, it's a comment by Valentina Tusa. So, related to my question about the fishing, maybe by seeing the foreigner as brought as a wave. Maybe. I think that's a Korean wave reference. Right, brought as a wave. Yeah. Sure. Sure. I think it was probably though, probably more. As you said, the need to the case of churches, especially the desire to move them if they've moved south to desire them to move them away from the border region. And to find employment for them which wouldn't, as were take up land, which was already needed by other people. So I guess that was probably more the reason. Well, maybe they were also very good fishermen, I don't know. Maybe they're very good at it. That's awesome. They certainly apparently they did very well. That's why the chosen court got so worried at one point they had in a very brief time vastly expanded a number of boats under their control and were really prospering in the early 17th century. And that was another worry. Yeah. Okay. Valentina just said thank you. And that's the end. So once again, thank you, Adam. Thank everybody for participating for all of your questions. Thank Adam for engaging so well with all of these questions. It was very illuminating and interesting. One sentence and Chani Lee's question, which I forgot to answer. May I ask, just quickly mentioned within five sentences my response to that. Of course, because I Chani may feel that I have been unresponsive. My obviously the tone of it of the description also changes hugely in the 18th century in part as the biographies produced during the 18th century become much more hagiographic so you notice for instance back to your friend can say Jack. Our mutual friend can say Jack I guess we have a mutual friendship there. I think Jack's early biographies tend to describe him in a manner that really is very much less, much livelier, much less exclusively mean loyalist, I would say from later descriptions that often had to edit aspects of the original description you may know back said on is described describes Kang said Jack's drinking habits his tendency to throw leaves into creeks in order to destroy his rival fishermen's nets and things like that and so back said on tends to describe the Jack almost in a comic manner, and a very different manner from the way me loyalist migrants were described in late 18th century courts where they're all absolute paragons you know, the, you know, a Ching Ching officials come with swords to chop off their bodies refuse to submit saying I only have one life to live. But so I only need only die once so why should I submit to betray the one true dynasty and then the Ching officials of cursor frightened by this incredible expression of loyalty. The earlier the few biographical texts we have for the late 17th century are certainly a lot livelier and a lot less worthy than that. Anyway, sorry, I just thought I'd answer my, I missed that sentence in Chinese Lease question. Thank you. I think that was a good end to the talk. Once again, thank you Adam. Thank you, everybody for for participating today. And I hope to see you on the 19th of March Professor JP Park's talk as well. Thank you all. Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye.