 Welcome to the ninth meeting of 2024 in session 6 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee. We have apologies today from Megan Gallagher. Our first agenda item is consideration of an affirmative instrument, the draft legal aid miscellaneous amendment to Scotland regulations 2024 draft, and I welcome to the meeting Siobhan Brown, Minister for Victims and Community Safety and her officials Emma Thompson, Solicitor, Legal Directorate and Katie Case, Legal Aid Policy Officer, access to justice team Scottish Government. I refer members to paper one, and I invite the minister to speak to the draft instrument. Good morning, convener and committee. Can I just take this opportunity to congratulate you on your new role, convener? Thank you for the opportunity to speak to the committee about the legal aid miscellaneous amendment Scotland regulations 2024. This instrument has been brought forward to deliver changes to existing legal aid regulations, primarily to ensure continuing access to justice in Scotland. Firstly, this instrument provides for children's legal aid to be automatically available to the child in a children's hearing system case, where a pre-hearing panel, or children's hearing, is considered imposing a compulsory supervision order that includes a movement restriction condition. The Children's Care and Justice Scotland Bill seeks to ensure that 16 and 17-year-olds will not be sent to youth offenders institutions from 2024 onwards. In order to achieve this, it is likely that there will be an increased use of movement restriction conditions. Legal aid is currently automatically available for children, where a pre-hearing panel, or children's hearing, considers that it might be necessary to impose a compulsory supervision order that will include a secure accommodation authorisation. However, it is not available where the panel or hearing is considering a compulsory supervision order that includes a movement restriction condition. Secondly, this instrument makes provision to uplift the current council accommodation allowance. Existing regulations provide that council, who must travel to appear in cases such as when the High Court goes on circuit and sits outside the central belt, may claim on accommodation and subsidence allowance. It has become apparent that, in a number of instances, the current allowance is insufficient for covering the costs of the accommodation. This SSI raises the accommodation allowance and introduces a new provision to allow this to be exceeded where certain conditions are met, including that council has received the prior approval of the Scottish Legal Aid Board. This will allow the board the flexibility to approve hotel costs above the standard limit, although it is predicted that this will be a very rare occurrence. Finally, this instrument introduces specific council fees for written submissions when these are required by the court. Although rare, there has been occasions in particularly complex or technical cases where the court has requested written submissions in preparation for a trial. Due to the nature of the submissions, the preparation involved can take several hours or, in some cases, days. Currently, there is no separate fee for this work. It is simply summed into the preliminary hearing preparation fee. This instrument will amend the fee table to provide fees for junior and senior council to be payable for criminal cases where a written submission has been requested by the court. That gives you a brief overview of the regulations and context, and I am happy to answer any questions. I now invite members to ask any questions that they may have. A quick question about the provision of legal aid to children who might be subject to MRCs. What information will be available, or how do you expect those qualifying to be informed of the fact that legal aid is provided? Will it be an automatic thing, or will there need to be some kind of application? I understand that it would be automatic, but I might bring one of my officials in for that. Katie, it will be automatic. So, there is no information provision that is required for anyone in the process to ensure that this happens? It should be automatic for anybody, any child, going through the process, that it will be entitled to legal aid. Any other member wishes to ask a question? No. No other member of the committee has indicated that they wish to ask any more questions or make any comments, so we will move straight to item 2, which is the formal business in relation to the instrument. That is the consideration of the motion for approval for the affirmative instrument, and I invite the minister to move the motion. That is 6SM 12219, that the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee recommends that the legal aid miscellaneous amendment Scotland regulations 2024 draft be approved. Do members have any other final comments? No, we are all agreed. I will now invite the committee to agree to delegate to me the publication of a short factual report on our deliberations on the affirmative SSI that we have considered today. I will agree on that. That completes consideration of the affirmative instrument, and I thank the minister and her officials for attending. We will now have a brief suspension for a change over our witnesses. We will now move on to the next agenda item for today, which is to conclude our evidence-taking on the HIV anti-stigma campaign. I welcome to the meeting Jenny Minto, minister for public health and women's health, and Rebecca Carton, sexual health, BBV and respiratory surveillance team leader, Scottish Government. I refer members to papers 2 and 3, and I invite the minister to make a short opening statement, please. Thank you for inviting me and for considering the important issue of HIV stigma. HIV stigma remains a barrier to accessing treatment and care and puts people at risk, but ultimately we aim to build a Scotland where everyone is treated with kindness, dignity and respect. It is about real people leading real lives. The Terence Higgins Trust anti-stigma campaign showed some of the harms that can be done by stigma, and whilst it was a proud moment to fund and support such a hard-hitting campaign, I am not proud that HIV stigma still remains. We are committed to work to tackle that. We must continue to remember that the H in HIV is human and put people at the centre of everything we do. In 2021, we committed to eliminating the transmission of HIV in Scotland by 2030, and I am pleased to announce that our HIV transmission elimination delivery plan has been published today. That plan focuses on the actions that we will take to deliver on the 22 recommendations that are presented to us on 1 December 2022 as part of the HIV transmission elimination proposal. We have worked with a wide range of stakeholders in developing this plan, and indeed many of the actions within it are already well under way. We have taken the time to ensure that the plan that we have published today is one that is the support of the sector, one that is deliverable and achievable and will take us closer to our transmission elimination goal. The plan takes us up to 2026, at which point it will be important to take stock again and adjust our focus as we aim towards 2030. The delivery plan focuses on stopping new cases of HIV and reducing stigma is an important part of that. However, it is also important that we continue to support those who are living with HIV. Whilst we aim to eliminate HIV transmission by 2030, we will continue to care for those with the virus long after that. The delivery plan complements the wider aims of the sexual health and bloodborne virus action plan published in November last year, which aims not only to eliminate new HIV transmissions, but also to support people living with HIV to lead longer, healthier lives with a good quality of life in a society where the attitudes of individuals, the public, professionals and the media in Scotland towards sexual health and bloodborne viruses are positive, non-stigmatising and supportive. Both those outcomes have remained a key focus of our bloodborne virus work over the past 10 years, and it is right that they continue to be the anchor points of our work. However, it is not something that the Scottish Government can deliver alone. It takes the support and co-operation of our NHS partners, our third sector colleagues, academia, industry and the general public. We continue to work with our partners to break down barriers to testing and treatment, including funding opt-out testing pilots in three accident and emergency departments, funding the Terence Higgins Trust to offer postal and community-based HIV testing, and working with Public Health Scotland to develop online postal self-sampling for all STIs, including HIV. We continue to fund Waverly Care to deliver Fast Track Cities, an intervention that ensures that the voices of people living with HIV are engaged to ensure that they have a say in shaping local and national priorities. It is important that we reflect on what Professor Escort said at your last meeting. Scotland is not England light, and therefore it is vital that our interventions and actions address the needs of our population, our demographic and our epidemic. There has been considerable progress in reducing new cases of HIV in Scotland. As we move towards our transmission elimination goal, we must do what is right for those living with HIV or those who contract HIV in Scotland. We will now be moving on to questions, and I am going to open up if I may. As a committee, we have heard from those living with HIV talking to people with lived experience, and it was quite harrowing some of the stories that we heard in regards to the stigma that still exists, particularly hearing about maternity services. For example, people in very vulnerable positions are given the wrong information in regards to breastfeeding and how they can even birth their babies. People are already in a vulnerable position, and it was quite hard to hear some of the things that were being said. What, if any, mandatory training is provided for health and social care staff about HIV and the stigma surrounding it? I agree absolutely some of the stories that I have heard too are absolutely harrowing. In the Scotland that I live in, that we all live in, it is not the kind of stories that I want to hear. Nicky Coya reflected on one story from a nurse within Greater Glasgow and Clyde in his evidence. I think that it is so important that we ensure that everybody working in health and social care gets the right support to understand how things have changed with regards to the way that HIV is treated. It is fair to say that you have evidence that perhaps there is a lack of up-to-date knowledge. That is where the work that Dr Brawley and NHS Grampian is doing is so important with regard to the e-learning that NHS Grampian is looking at. I hope that, if that is successful, like other education provided on the tourist learning system, if that is successful, that will be rolled out. Nicky Coya, in his evidence, talked clearly about what Glasgow had done 10 years ago and recognised that there was perhaps a need to build on that. Throughout our plan, education is one of the important things and especially remembering that stigma is dreadful—it is an awful thing. Paul O'Kane hosted a round table—it was one of the first round tables that I attended in that role. It was really important for me to hear from people living with HIV the impact that it has had on their life. It is those awareness campaigns and we, as elected members of this Parliament, can also support that awareness. I would also like to pay tribute to the Terence Higgins Trust for the fantastic collaborative work that they did to produce the campaign advert video that was shared on media from October last year. We are currently doing some analysis work on that to get the outcomes of that, but it is raising awareness to try and reduce stigma. It is really important. Thank you minister. I am really glad to hear about the education, particularly in healthcare settings. I think that something that was raised by one of our people with lived experience was the gap, often times, in education. Do you see that as continuous professional development in terms of not just a one-off tick box exercise when people are qualified but a continuous throughout their profession? All education and all learning has to be continuous. I do not think that in any profession, in any walk of life, you hit a door where you stop learning. I can speak very personally to that experience, both in my previous career and now in this role. I do think that it is important and I think that that is the importance of the work that has been done in Grampian to see how that can be rolled out across in the fact that it is e-learning. I have another question on training. What training was given to emergency department staff that is engaged in opt-out HIV testing? The three boards that I have done locally have locally worked on how they have delivered that. It has been done differently in each health board. I am not sure whether they have developed any package, but they have worked with the A&E department staff to let them know why they are doing it and what they are doing it, but they have done that locally in a way that fits with their individual roll-outs. I am evaluating the outcomes of those opt-out pilots. I will move on to questions from other members. Good morning, Minister, for being with us and for your opening comments. You have said in your opening statement or in response to Karen's questions that the really crucial work of challenging and tackling stigma and raising awareness being key to that. We know and you mentioned that the short film that was created, but we also know that story lines and dramas can have a really, really significant and positive impact on not only raising general societal awareness but also on encouraging people to get tested and demystifying some of that process. Can you tell us what plans are in place to amplify and extend the campaigns that we have already seen over the recent months to focus on that raising awareness and tackling stigma? Thanks, Maggie, for that question. I absolutely wholeheartedly endorse what you have said about how culture and television film adverts can enhance. I think about where my knowledge came from, and it was from the Films Philadelphia and Dallas Buyers Club. You talk about EastEnders as well having those kind of story lines. I think that that is really, really important. Certainly in the online age that we are in just now, it is also very short pieces can be very helpful, which is where I think the Terence Higgins Trust film really cut through, because it was hard hitting, it was short, but the message was absolutely clear. So, as I said earlier, we are currently doing some revision, some work gathering on that to see how that has worked and clearly we will keep that in mind if we have further plans for whatever awareness raising that we feel it needs to be done. Okay, so just a quick follow-up on that, then I appreciate you want to evaluate the outcomes and the impact that that film, the Terence Higgins Trust film, has had. I suppose there might be other ways of getting the message out to different audiences to try and identify some of the cultural barriers that maybe are experienced by people, and we know that there are compounding aspects of stigma around intersectionality, around culture, women, black and ethnic minority groups. Can you say a little bit more about, other than the film aspect and those kind of targeted projects, what are the ways in which the Scottish Government, either through the delivery plan or elsewhere, is hoping to take that intersectional approach to tackling stigma? I think it does have to be a focused approach, and we have been funding Waverly Care with their fast-track cities as well, and they work very closely, clearly, with people that are living with HIV to ensure that their voices are heard, because I think that in an awful lot of cases it is the peer-to-peer conversations that help to spread awareness, and they have been very helpful in creating videos on how to access PrEP, for example, so I think that that is a really important way that we can target the right support as well as having. If I may, I was just thinking that I represent Argyll and Bute, and Oban has a fantastic Pride march, and Rothsy's bring it having one this year as well on Bute, and these are also really important awareness-raising days, because in Oban you get, you turn, Siggins Trust comes, Waverly come as well, and various other people, so it's such a it's actually a really warm event and a happy event, and there's a lot of information changing, and I think that that's one of the most, I think that that's a really good way of doing it, because it is very locally based, and again you're spreading the message out. Okay, thanks, and one last question, if I may. It really comes back to education, and just a question, do you anticipate changes to guidance for health and wellbeing education in schools and elsewhere, changing to address misconceptions about HIV, address stigma and increase understanding and awareness? Yeah, I think that's a really important area, because as I said, we don't stand still, we've got to keep learning and keep refreshing and looking at things, one of the schools, and I thought the other area that was really important, that was brought out in the evidence is that the education is wider than simply HIV, it's much more about your sexual health, and one of the schools in my constituency, some of the 15th and 16th year girls have really taken that on board, and they're trying to look at the best way for them to get educated, whether it's in a school environment or whether it's with their GP practices, so I think that there's a real buy-in not only from teachers for this, but also from the pupils as well. Right, thank you. One of the things we heard quite clearly was that in order to tackle the stigma associated with HIV, we need to tackle the taboo that is talking about sex, and that speaks to what you've just addressed there. I'll leave it there. Thank you, Maggie. I now have a question from Evelyn Tweet, please. Thanks, convener, and good morning, minister, and good morning, Rebecca. Minister, we heard really strong testimony last week from witnesses that stigma is still so prevalent in rural communities, and can I put on the record a huge thank you to the people that spoke to us last week? Some of the things that were coming over to us were absolutely heartbreaking the lives that these people have led and the stigma that they have had to deal with, but what is the Scottish Government doing for rural areas? How are we supporting people, and what are we doing to try and prevent some of that stigma in rural communities? Thank you, Evelyn. As I've referenced earlier, I represent one of the rural constituencies in Scotland. I've had similar conversations as to perhaps some of the evidence that you heard, but I always think that there's an interesting balance to take in rural communities, because some people, because of the stigma, are actually happier travelling to a larger population centre for their treatment, so we have to bear that in mind when we're looking at this situation. Dr Howe last week gave some very strong anecdotal evidence about how she operates or how things operate in Highland, and it's important to recognise that alongside this delivery plan we've also done some work that will be published later this week on looking at rural inequalities and how we can ensure that the service that they get is the same and is person-centred as we would expect in the larger centres. You also heard from Professor Escort about the amazing work that they're doing with regard to e-prep, and again that's something that could work well and support people in rural communities. I suppose the other thing to think about is we focused on a couple of Highlands for one of the opt-outs, and some of this is about making sure that we take local approaches where local approaches are more appropriate, so some things are better done on a national basis and some things are better done on a local basis with clinicians who know their population and tailoring what is needed to communities, and that's what we've tried to do through the plan. We will now move on to questions from Annie Wells, please. Thank you, convener. Good morning. Thank you for coming along today. One of my questions you've already answered was when would the delivery plan be published, so that's obviously been done. I've had a quick look at it, but the other thing is what resources are going to be available for the implementation of that delivery plan, so are there resources specifically put aside for it? Thank you, Annie, for your question. Clearly, if the committee, I appreciate that we've just published it this morning, if the committee's got any further questions, then if you want to write to us, then we'd be very happy to have dialogue that way. With regard to resources, we've set aside £1.7 million for the whole HIV plan within this element of government. I think that you got very clear evidence last week that resources are tight on that, and I reflect on that, which is why it's so important that we get the spending on this right. There will be more information out as to how we decide to spend the money, but we do appreciate that we've got a tight budget. I'd like to put on record, and I think that it came across really strongly in your two sessions last week, about the amazing collaboration that happens between the third sector, with academics, with health boards and also with government. I like to say that there are critical friends, and that's the way. I think that we work very well together and really appreciate the hard work because they know their community so well. I think that Dr Clutter Buck and his evidence reflect on that. We will keep a close eye on the funding and how it's being spent in the future. He also said that the plan was up to 2026, and we're looking for the elimination by 2030. Can I ask how you're going to monitor its progress and effectiveness in the short term? The monitoring of it is incredibly important. Reflecting on—there are so many different groups and different acronyms—we've got one that's called TEDDI now. That group will be overseeing the introduction of the primary, secondary tertiary elements of the plan. It's also important that the relationship that we have with Public Health Scotland is well. The additional information that it can provide us with and the additional work that it will be doing to support the plan. It is absolutely a collaborative way forward, always checking what we're doing. I think that because the relationship is so close with the communities, it will be quick to say that perhaps we need to re-emphasise that. One final question. I'm sure that if I look at the delivery plan, it will be there. What training proposals are there for new staff that might be involved in the delivery of this? Are there any training proposals that are linked to the delivery plan? I've highlighted the work that's happening in Grampian for the wider health and social care partnership. What training has been put in place for new staff that could be involved in the delivery of this plan? I think that we heard from other people about medical professionals that don't understand HIV and don't double-gluven things like that. What training has been put in place for these new staff that are entering the NHS? Education generally of staff, health and social care staff, is in the plan. How exactly we deliver that, we're still working out what that looks like. In terms of new HIV staff, there's not a specific action on that, but within the wider delivery. We're still formulating exactly what those materials might look like, what resources we provide, but it is in the plan to provide more education for existing staff and new staff. Thank you very much, convener. Minister, can you give us background to the pilot for opt-out testing? Why were they implemented so quickly? Why are they running for such a short period of time? When we talked about the possibility of an opt-out pilot, we thought that it was important that we chose a variety of different health boards. We've got Lothian, which is a very urban one, and then Grampian, which is a mix, and then Highland, which is a more rural one. We have the cross-sector, I suppose, of Scotland, covered. The other important thing was that this is something that had been asked for by the group involved in looking at whether opt-out testing was right. You're always caught between a rock and a hard place. Do you do it quickly? Do you ask health boards to apply for that and quickly? We get a response, so we're getting some data, or do you wait longer and result in being questioned? Why aren't you doing this? It was on balance. We made the right decision to fund the three pilots, given that they cover different elements of the Scottish mainland and the islands. Do you think that the pilots are long enough to give you a real picture of what's happening? I think that what we've got to remember is that the pilots are happening in busy A&E departments, so you don't want to increase in an area that is already very stressed—additional stresses, I suppose, for a long period of time. We felt that we could get the answers then. It's also important that we recognise that pilots are also happening in England, so there will be a look at the data that comes out of those pilots, as well as the ones that come out of Scotland to give us a bigger picture. Did you consider any other types of pilots, or any other types for the future? I would never say never. I think that it's right, depending on the prevalence in Scotland, depending on how elimination is progressing. If there are changes in the population in Scotland through migration, then we need to make sure that we are nimble. That's one of the things that the delivery plan allows us to ensure that we are focusing in the right areas to ensure that we meet the HIV elimination target in 2030. Do you have any early feedback that you can share with us? With regard to the three opt-out pilots, no, I don't, but I'm very happy to share with you once we get that. And the evaluation? Do you know when that will take place? So, the evaluation of the opt-out pilots, I think that it would be right for that evaluation to start once the pilots are finished, and I don't imagine that that will take too long. One of the pilots were a little later starting than they originally planned, just due to local pressures, so they're still on-going at the moment. So, once they've finished, they'll be able to do the evaluation after that point. Thank you, convener. Good morning, minister. Thanks for your update this morning about the delivery plan. I'm going to cover the access to PrEP, and I wanted to know what you're doing to address the problems of access for groups less likely to access PrEP. For example, women in the transgender community, black and ethnic minority folk, just to name a few. I think that we need to recognise how game-changing PrEP has been in Scotland, and I think that there's about 8,000 people currently living with PrEP as part of their daily life, and I think that that's a really positive story. I think that you're right, and I think that this is the way in which we've reached in Scotland is having to find the people that are in the less obvious communities. That's where, as I've highlighted earlier, we have the importance of the work that the third sector organisations are doing alongside academics and clinicians to ensure that we can find them the best way. I think that Nicky Coyer referenced the Glasgow injecting community and also noted that the safe rooms might actually help in that. We've created a PrEP short life working group who will be looking at managing and maximising how we can maximise PrEP eligibility criteria and perhaps looking at the expansion of PrEP prescribing. However, I go back to the answers to the first set of questions around stigma. It's finding the best way to ensure that those who may or have HIV have the best way of accessing the services that we can provide, and that's where the delivery plan will, I hope, help. That's absolutely key. We've heard also that it's much more expensive to administer PrEP through the community pharmacies, even though that might be more convenient for folk that are needing it. Why is that, and how do we address it? That's one of the things that we're looking at. Currently, if I get this correct and Rebecca will correct me if I'm wrong, it's clinics that have to prescribe PrEP, and that's a piece of work that we're taking forward to look at how we can change the prescribing of PrEP more widely to GPs. We're currently doing a piece of scoping work again in NHS Grampian with GPs to find out how open they are to doing it and how we can make it the best way for them, and clearly the people that will be prescribed PrEP to get that to work well. Thanks for that. Finally, there's concern, obviously, that resource freed up from PrEP might be diverted away from specialist sexual health services. What assurances can you give the committee that that won't happen and that it is directed to ensure that those that are underrepresented have support to access PrEP? Yeah, thanks Marie for that question. It is a really important one, and I think everyone here recognises the pressure that the Scottish Government's budget is in. But as I've said earlier, we've set aside £1.7 million to support this in the next financial year, and basically it's my job, with my critical friends, to ensure that we make sure that the right funding within the funding allocation that we have is directed in the right way. We're doing that to us as well, thank you. Thank you very much, convener, and good morning to the minister. I'm particularly interested in the committee's interest in what data we have and how we use that data in order to inform the actions that we take. We've heard from Terence Higgins Trust about the issue on the lack of data on stigma and how that prevents us from properly tracking our efforts, as I say, to tackle it. Has the Government got plans to assess nationally how stigma is experienced by people living with HIV in different geographical areas? I think that we heard a lot of evidence about the disparity of living in a rural community in the way that stigma manifests itself, perhaps being different from urban communities. We've heard a lot this morning and through our evidence on the use of different public services in the way that stigma is experienced. Obviously, the Government has the ability to be able to have reporting from the various public services, so I wonder what work will be done in that space. I absolutely recognise and reflect on the evidence that was given last week and about the gaps in specific areas. I think that the plan that we've just launched today supports the need to find to increase data gathering. We also need to recognise, and if I reference rural communities, I think that it can be across other sections of the population because the numbers in Scotland are so small. We need to make sure that we are gathering and reporting that data in the best way to ensure that people can't be identified and, thus, having the rock on effect on that stigma. Dr Kirsty Roy talked about the work that Public Health Scotland is doing about creating a dashboard. I'm behind that to ensure that we have the best information. I think that you're right about how different health boards have different pockets of information and we need to pull that together. One of the things in the plan is to undertake a national Scotland-wide audit of HIV contact tracing, which I would hope will help to feed into that. We have got work specifically in the plan to support data gathering and also working closely with Public Health Scotland to ensure that we get the right information and that it's produced in the right way. I thank the minister for that contribution. Obviously, having the information about what is happening in the public service is very important, and I appreciate that you spoke for health boards there, but it's clear to me through evidence that stigma exists across the public sector. I've had conversations with people who have dealt with the police who found that a very difficult circumstance. We know that Police Scotland has a number of challenges at the moment. I think that there is a degree to which we need to reflect on how well training is occurring in those parts of the public service. We've heard people in education settings, for example, where stigma still persists. I wonder if you might expand just in terms of what can be done outwith health settings as well for people to report their experience and for that to be properly collated. My concern is that we don't have a good picture of what is happening across the services that the Government is responsible for delivering. I think that that's a really helpful question. I think that it really gets to the number of stigma in that you can't account for where it will happen. You hope that training will ensure that people deal with people as people would expect to be dealt with in whatever circumstance that they are in. I will take that away and come back to the committee with a much clearer response. I will reflect back on what I was saying about in an education setting, in some respects, we might find that teachers are learning from their pupils in some respects with regard to that. It's a different conversation happening. The work that we've highlighted with regard to health boards could be replicated into local authorities as well. For example, I was at an event a couple of months ago in Lanarkshire about breastfeeding and how the Lanarkshire Council had spent a lot of time in the local authority and the health board working together to understand what the best way to give training was to make it a breastfeeding friendly environment. I think that we can learn from things like that. I am sure that we would welcome more information on the cross-cutting nature of the stigma and what more Government can do across Government to deal with it, because that is an issue for everyone. It has to be seen, I am sure, with her ministerial colleagues that that is an issue for everyone, not just for those who are in a health role. I wonder if I can touch on the elimination plan and to what degree the elimination plans across the country are getting data from them that will help us to understand the timescale. It sounds as though it will be some time before Public Health Scotland will be able to track the progress of HIV elimination transmission plans and ensure that the richness of data is available. What further you can do to expedite capacity in Public Health Scotland to move those plans forward, because we know that that is crucial. Understanding the progress of those plans is crucial to seeing how we are doing. I think that you are right. I always weigh up the speed of doing something with making sure that it is as robust as the information is as robust as possible. Public Health Scotland has just appointed a HIV co-ordinator who will be monitoring and managing it, so that is a positive way forward. Would you recognise the frustration that there is around the need to go faster and have a better and clearer picture? The frustration is that if we are serious about the targets that we have set, which are very ambitious, we need to have the data. As I said in my previous question, we need to be able to mark our homework, look at our progress and understand where the gaps are. Across the committee, that is what we have heard. We need to have that data. I was encouraged in the last answer about further information, but do you understand the frustration and recognise it? I absolutely do. That came across in your evidence sessions. What I found important from watching them was the anecdotal evidence. I appreciate that that is not data, but it adds to the data and makes the data more accessible. That is why I am pleased that Public Health Scotland has appointed a co-ordinator. I am also pleased, as I have referenced earlier, the collaboration that happens across the sector. As Dr Clutterbuck said in his evidence, that is something that is not new. In fact, the area of medicine has been a trailblazer in recognising the importance of different elements working together. That is something that the whole of the health board and the whole of health can look at. I understand the frustration. Am I working hard to move things on? Yes, I am. I respect hugely the work that is being done behind me or prior to me taking on to this role. Do any other members have any more questions for the minister? We don't. That concludes our formal business for today's meeting. We will now move into private to consider the other items on our agenda.